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Indaba “Monitor”: Jesus Had No Problem with Man-Boy Love

Monday, June 15, 2009 • 1:52 pm

Ultimately, the responsibility of what to do about this falls on Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams. He has the most questions to answer of anyone. He has staked the future of the communion on “keeping everyone at the table” through this “Continuing Indaba” process. And as it stands now, he has as an overseer of the organization that secured funding for it, an ordained minister who believes that Jesus approved of grown men having sex with boys.


We took a little heat for having the unmitigated gall and poor taste to question - albeit in a lightly speculative manner - if the “next frontier” for the Episcopal Church perhaps involves… errr… “extra-species romance.”

But as anyone familiar with Johnson’ Law knows, the surest way to turn perversion into doctrine in the Episcopal Church is to make a joke about it.

And so, here we are.

Ralinda Gregor at the American Anglican Council has done us all a tremendous service by doing the research for, an putting together, an article titled Money, Sex, Indaba: Corrupting the Anglican Communion Listening Process. This is must-reading for all of us, so hie thee hence after familiarizing yourself with the basics. Then, return for some discussion about what you can actually do about it besides shaking your head and gnashing your teeth.

To begin with, the Anglican Communion Office has in this crisis over homosexuality been cynically attempting to appease the overwhelmingly conservative African provinces, where 2/3 of the world’s Anglicans reside, by concocting a never-ending conversation about sexuality and theology designed to “keep everyone at the table” for as long as possible. This is the organic evolution of the “listening process” mentioned in the 1998 Lambeth Resolution 1.10 (which, incidentally, categorically rejected homosexual practice as incompatible with Scripture).

To make matters worse, the ACO has decided to label this newest incarnation of the listening process “Indaba,” an African word for a process by which decisions are arrived at by a more-or-less egalitarian process the basis of which is group discussion.

The problem continues with the fact that this “Indaba” process requires money, and wouldn’t-ya-know-it, cash is in short supply around the Anglican Communion Office.

Enter the Satcher Institute, a “progressive” organization that receives a large amount of its funding from the odious Ford Foundation. One of the Satcher Institute’s departments is called the Center for Excellence in Sexual Health (CESH), and they have volunteered to secure funding for the Anglican Communion Office’s “Indaba” project to the tune of $1.5 million. This funding was approved at last month’s meeting of the Anglican Consultative Council in Jamaica.

The money comes from a wealthy Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Southeast Florida named Marta Weeks, who has long supported “progressive” causes.

Seeing any red flags yet? Good, because here’s where you really need to start paying attention:

The assistant director of CESH, Dr. William Stayton respectively, is an off-the-chart advocate for normalizing all manner of sexual perversion. From the AAC report:

An assistant director and expert in the field of human sexuality for the CESH has expressed and promoted a view of sexual freedom that knows virtually no limits.

The expert, Dr. William Stayton, an ordained American Baptist minister, served as a witness for those seeking to strike down laws against pornography on the internet. As an expert witness for the American Civil Liberties Union in ACLU v. Reno, Stayton testified in 1996 that he did not believe viewing sexually explicit videos of sexual intercourse and oral sex were harmful to children and admitted that his five year old had seen one of these videos Stayton used in his sex therapy practice.
Stayton addressed bestiality in the 2006 edition of “Human Sexuality: An Encyclopedia.” In his entry on eroticism, he noted that it is not unusual for some people to have erotic feelings towards animals:

“While most people do not act on these sexual feelings, some do. Generally, it occurs out of experimentation or when no human partner is available, rather than because a person is eroticized only by animals. Most researchers agree that this type of sexual experimentation is not harmful, unless the person is discovered. Then, it is the reaction of the person who discovers the sexual event that can do the most harm psychologically and emotionally, rather than the experience itself.”

Regarding sexual acts with children, in his entry on “Pederasty in Ancient and Early Christian History” in the 2006 “Human Sexuality: An Encyclopedia,” Stayton claims that:

“There is a story in the gospels of Matthew (8:5-13) and Luke (7:1-10) that most certainly illustrates pederasty as not having a negative value in Jesus’s thought… Since pederastic relationships were so common and accepted in the ancient world of Jesus, it is likely that, as the story indicates, Jesus himself had no problem with the practice of pederasty.”

His conclusion is devoid of Christian morality as well:

“There seems to be nothing inherently harmful or damaging in sexual acts alone, but rather harmfulness and damage must be interpreted within the context of the way each particular behavior is seen in each culture and in terms of its long-range effects on the individual.”


This reckless and unsubstantiated conclusion is far outside the mainstream of Anglican interpretation of Scripture. In fact, it is outside the mainstream of any responsible biblical scholarship. And yet this sex therapist and minister is the assistant director and sole clergy representative of the very organization that will be involved in funding conversations on theology and sexuality throughout the Anglican Communion.

Stayton is also a member of Loving More, an education and advocacy organization for polyamory (mulitiple sex partners), and is listed on their website as a “poly friendly professional” offering relational and sex therapy in Pennsylvania.

Dr. Stayton is listed here as a “poly-friendly professional,” and here as a panelist on a forum titled “The Religious Right’s Obsession with Gay Sex?” at Princeton, which was described as - I kid you not - a “panel discussion on tactics used by many right-wing organizations, and why these groups focus energies on portraying LGBT individuals as obsessed with sex.” Here is a video presentation (35Mb Windows Media file) by Dr. Stayton titled “What Sexuality Educators Should Know About Religion” given at the “First International Congress on Lifespan Sexuality Education.” BE WARNED: About halfway through the presentation, Dr. Stayton shows some scenes from one of his “therapeutic” videos. The scenes he chooses to show amount to little more than soft-core pornography, and evidently they’re just a prelude to, in his words, the “kinky” ones. Aside from the lame attempt to dress up pornography as serious, scientifically-supported “therapy” (I mean really… who would’ve guessed that caressing each other and “exploring each others’ genitals” would lead to arousal?), Stayton also posits a “sexual values” system which, if you’re a student of rhetorical logic, leads to many unintentional laughs.

So go and read the entire AAC report, and return ready for a little contemplation.

[taps fingers on desk, hums melodiously…]

Now then.

I’m going to suggest we forgo the fun we usually have whenever we find a connection between the Episcopal left and abject perversion (which invariably takes the form of “progressives” on this site and others showing up to insist that the connection is mere coincidence - that about this implication that the progressive agenda on sexual morality involves anything more than conferring blessings on loving, committed, long-term same-sex couples, why gosh, nothing could be further from the truth) and just cut right to the chase:

What are the odds that RJ Reynolds would ever seriously fund a program designed to reduce the actual consumption of cigarettes? What are the odds that Anheuser-Busch would ever seriously fund a program to reduce the actual consumption of beer? What are the odds that Trojan would ever seriously fund a program to reduce sexual intercourse?

The answer is: Zero, in all cases.

So what, pray tell, is the Satcher Institute’s CESH doing “monitoring” the Anglican Communion’s flagship effort at “dialogue” about sexuality? Indeed, why are they even interested in the Anglicans at all?

The Anglican “Indaba” process has from its inception been a fraud, a delay tactic concocted by Rowan Williams and the heavily-revisionist ACO, in order to keep the orthodox Global South from bolting the communion. Now it has morphed into something that is being “monitored” by an organization led by people who advocate not just for same-sex unions - which we’ve come to expect - and not just for polyamorous unions as well, but by people who assert that there’s no harm in showing 5-year-olds videotaped depictions of intercourse, who seek to de-stigmatize bestiality, and who assert ‘it is likely that… Jesus himself had no problem with the practice of pederasty.’

Let us dwell briefly on Dr. Stayton’s conclusion regarding the story told in Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10:

“[it] most certainly illustrates pederasty as not having a negative value in Jesus’s thought… Since pederastic relationships were so common and accepted in the ancient world of Jesus, it is likely that, as the story indicates, Jesus himself had no problem with the practice of pederasty.”

I just wanted to make sure we all understand exactly who we’re dealing with here: The sole clergy representative of the organization that will be “monitoring” the Anglican indaba process over homosexuality, to make sure their money is being spent “as intended,” who is also an ordained minister (granted, of the fringe-liberal American Baptist denomination), goes beyond the garden-variety “Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.” He goes beyond “Jesus approved of homosexuality.” He goes beyond even “Jesus Himself was gay.” All of this we’ve come to expect from proponents of the “new thing” in the Anglican church.

No, what Dr. Stayton is saying is that Jesus would have no problem with grown men having sex with boys.

My first thought was that, surely, The Rev. Weeks had no idea who Dr. Stayton is or what he espouses, but that doesn’t seem to be the case:

Weeks told the American Anglican Council that she was approached and asked to fund the project by the Satcher Institute, not by the ACO or its staff. Weeks said her association with staff members of the Satcher Institute’s Center of Excellence for Sexual Health (CESH) goes back to their leadership of another organization she supported, the Center for Sexuality and Religion (CSR), which merged with Satcher’s CESH in 2008.

And who was the director of the CSR when it merged with the Center for Excellenace in Sexual Health at the Satcher Institute? None other than… William Stayton.

Several people have a lot of questions they need to answer:

- The Rev. Weeks as to whether, as it appears, she knew of Dr. Stayton’s well-established views on homosexuality, polyamory, pedophilia, and bestiality.

- The Rev. Canon Philip Groves of the ACO and the Rev. Canon Flora Winfield of Lambeth Palace, on whether or not they knew of Dr. Stayton’s work and views, and if not, whether they intend to continue the indaba process with the funding secured by and overssen by Satcher’s CESH department, now that they know of his work and views.

- Ultimately, the responsibility of what to do about this falls on Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams. He has the most questions to answer of anyone. He has staked the future of the communion on “keeping everyone at the table” through this Continuing Indaba process. And as it stands now, he has as an overseer of the organization that secured funding for it, an ordained minister who believes that Jesus approved of grown men having sex with boys.

Is there something we can do about this, other than sit back and talk about what a shame it is?

I’m thinking the answer is “yes.”

So if you’re interested in what that might be, read Ralinda Gregor’s entire report. Hold your fire until you’ve had a chance to sleep on it. Then watch this space over the next few days.


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Comments:

Easy one - get this in front of B16. The only thing that will be hard is finding a handbell choir to take shifts and a candle the size of a sequoia so he can apply bell, book, and candle to all the nutters in the Anglican North.

[1] Posted by Doug Stein on 06-15-2009 at 11:28 PM • top

Obviously this is all just a big misunderstanding caused by the ACO mistaking the acronym for “CASH”, which blinded them to the true nature of CESH.  Understandable when your pockets are empty.  ACO, you’ll ditch CESH first thing in the morning and Rowan Williams will make a public statement denouncing such a cynical attempt by such a hard-to-equal bunch of depraved perverts to manipulate the sacred infallible Anglican process, right,...right, Rowan?
............anyone, anyone?

[2] Posted by Milton on 06-15-2009 at 11:54 PM • top

A few things:

1. Dr.Stayton’s theory is totally ruined by a simple application of Ockham’s razor. ‘Paid’ means boy or servant. It occassionally means ‘boy or servant who is lover’. Roman centurions were men under Roman military law. Roman military law forbade homosexual conduct. The punishment for it was death. The centurion may have been as queer as a three denarius coin, but any pedarastic relationship was unlikely and also, from Jesus’ point, irrelevant.

2. Dr. Stayton’s whole take on the New Testament consists of conclusions in search of evidence. That is improper. Even if you are a benighted Baptist who does not adhere to tradition, you derive your notions of ethics from what the Bible says, not try to find obscure meanings to force the narrative to fit your conclusions. Above all, you do not take parables out of context.

3. The proverb is you should ‘never look a gift horse in the mouth’. But someone else has noted that if you don’t you will wind up with a stable of old horses with hardened mouths. In this instance, the $1.5 million is being supervised by an institution with no obvious religious affiliation, but with significant ties to certain secular groups. It certainly is worthwhile to ask what strings exist, what expectations do they have for the use of the money, who will be doing the supervising and what controls do they have?

Lastly, and in conclusion, Archbishop Williams’ motivations are clear. The longer he can drag out the process, the longer the parties remain in it. But particpating in a funded, fixed process merely for the privilege of participating diverts energies from other, more pressing concerns, such as proclaiming the Gospel and the social works so beloved and so undone by the progressive wing of the Church.

I’m all for church unity and I am as ecumenical as the day is long, but in the end the main Christian virtue is not unity, but love. We are called to love God first and then love our neighbours. Church unity ought to follow from that, but so can church division. Process for the sake of process is not, contra Williams, an over-riding virtue.

Off to get coffee…...

[3] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 06-16-2009 at 03:07 AM • top

I thought my ability to be shocked by things associated with TEC was gone, but not so.  I am shocked.  See the paragraph titled “Help from Influential Episcopalians” for a list of people, besides Weeks, who have been involved with these groups advocating sexual license.

As to the allegation of Jesus’ approval of pederasty, this is eisegesis run amok.  Does this mean that every time I see the word translated as “slave,” “servant,” or “bondservant” in the New Testament this is a code word for a sexual slave?  Nonsense.  And if it were true of this centurion, Jesus would surely have spoken to him about it.  Remember his conversation with the woman at the well.  He knew her sins.  Instead, this centurion was sufficiently righteous to be able to recognize and call on the Lord for help.

I can and will bring this AAC report to the attention of my bishop.  I await Greg’s suggestions on what else to do.

[4] Posted by Katherine on 06-16-2009 at 04:37 AM • top

Ah…love in all its varied forms, how like a Rainbow

[5] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-16-2009 at 04:50 AM • top

Wow.

Wow wow wow.

How on earth—how in heaven’s name—did Rowan Williams and the ACO get enmeshed with the Satcher Institute?

Now I’m just dying to know.

Did Rowan Williams know about the Satcher Institute and it’s goals and philosophies?

Or did he just accept the gold ducats without knowing because it was . . . you know . . . money?

Which is it?  Did he accept the funding even though he knew?  Or did he accept the funding without knowing?

[6] Posted by Sarah on 06-16-2009 at 05:22 AM • top

Since pederastic relationships were so common and accepted in the ancient world of Jesus

Except among Jews.  Even if you think that Jesus was nothing more than a self appointed Jewish Rabbi, there is zero reason to think that he would have accepted what the Jews regarded as a sinful, heathen, gentile practice. 

“There seems to be nothing inherently harmful or damaging in sexual acts alone, but rather harmfulness and damage must be interpreted within the context of the way each particular behavior is seen in each culture and in terms of its long-range effects on the individual.”

This is the logical end point of the “progressive” view on sexuality.  This is not to say that all progressives advocate paederasty, but that their arguments in favor of homosexuality ultimatly lay the groundwork for this kind of think, just as the “Free Love” movement that normalized heterosexual fornication has laid the groundwork for the homosexual movement.

[7] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 05:27 AM • top

Sarah,

It’s a mutually beneficial relationship. Archbishop Williams now has the means of drawing out the process and thereby seeing to it that the Anglican Communion does not shatter, at least for a while.

The Rev. Weeks and her cronies get to ensure that whatever develops from this continuing indaba, it will not be to the detriment of their position.

Also, while the Archbishop of Canterbury is orthodox theologically, he is very, very progressive in his politics and practice. These people are the sort of people he is most comfortable with and among.

[8] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 06-16-2009 at 05:29 AM • top

BTW, I presume that the AAC and/or the bloggers of Stand Firm are doing their best to distribute this knowledge to all the bishops of the Anglican Communion, particularly the primates

What the Anglican Communion needs right now is open rebellion by the orthodox primates, as Sarah Hey has said.  Perhaps a Global South statement saying that they are no longer willing to play William’s reindeer games.

[9] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 05:31 AM • top

RE: “These people are the sort of people he is most comfortable with and among.”

I’m sorry, mousetalker . . . but Rowan Williams is “comfortable with and among” the likes of William Stayton and the other apparatchiks of the Satcher Institute?

Maybe the denizens of the ACO.  But Rowan Williams?

[10] Posted by Sarah on 06-16-2009 at 05:32 AM • top

Also, while the Archbishop of Canterbury is orthodox theologically

Since when?  He may not be a Spongian or a Forrester style syncratist, but we’ve known from the begining that he is a heterodox progressive on matters of sexuality.

[11] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 05:34 AM • top

It just occurred to me that Jesus had conversations with several pagans, including the centurion and especially Pilate. He did not condemn their pagan rites to their face. Therefore he approved of them.

So, according to the new theology of the Rev. Stayton, if I want to get nekkid, dance under the moon, consume too much wine and have sex with whomever and whatever, all in the name of Bacchus, why that is perfectly a-ok.

I wonder what his take on infant sacrifice is?

[12] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 06-16-2009 at 05:37 AM • top

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t Canon Kearon on the short list to chair the World Council of Churches?  Maybe some of you in other denominations should whip out a letter to your own hierarchies to put a stop to that right here and now.  And maybe AAC would be good enough to forward a copy of the report on to the WCC (if they haven’t already).  Oops, sorry Greg, I know you want everyone to watch this space with rapt attention and wait until further instructions come along.  But those 2 things seem like pretty obvious courses of action that can be pursued while waiting.

[13] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-16-2009 at 05:40 AM • top

#10, I was thinking more of the good Rev. Weeks and her ilk. But he took the money, so does it really matter if he held his nose or not?

#11, there does seem to be a gap between his theology and his ethics, doesn’t there? He also has an incoherent political theory as well.

[14] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 06-16-2009 at 05:40 AM • top

“Did Rowan Williams know about the Satcher Institute and it’s goals and philosophies?”

HELL YES, Rowan Williams does know. 

Williams is FOR the homosex propaganda and wants it to penetrate into every nook and cranny of the world. 
With the Atlantic Monthly and other leftist media behind him, RW is being groomed to be the oh so brilliant, bearded, kindly, tolerant and wise(though completely unbiblical) spokesperson/chaplain/poster boy for the UN and Ted Turner, URI et al, sponsored one-world-religion, one-world-economy, one-world-government, green, (false) peace, homosex, free-sex feminist, political agenda…alias the works of the world/flesh/devil/anti-Christ evil spirits.
Williams’ talk at GC09 will be his acceptance speech for the role these people have offered him.

Their agenda is the natural fallen mind trying to ‘have it my way’ and the opposite of ‘Thy will be done’ and yeilding to God’s Word, will, authority and dominion.  The real message is: ‘I am god’ ‘I am wiser and nicer than God.’ (I am angry with God). 

They are actually in rebellion against the Truth of God. Romans 1:18-32
They will not hear or abide the Truth of God and be saved.  Romans 10:17
Instead, they devise their own god that says what they want it to say.  Their little god will fail them in the end.
Psalm 2

[15] Posted by Theodora on 06-16-2009 at 05:48 AM • top

Scrolling down the they very end of the report:

Why is the ACO continuing to misuse the indaba process to bridge opposing theologies and moralities when the process is based on developing consensus within a village or tribe with shared values and morality?

[16] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 05:49 AM • top

there does seem to be a gap between his theology and his ethics

Perhaps I’ve been using the words wrong, but I consider sexual ethics to be a theological issue.  So while his theology of the Trinity, for example, may be orthodox, clearly his theology of sexuality is lacking.  Even if you don’t think he fully embraces the pro-homosexuality viewpoint (as I think he does) the mere fact that he clearly considers it a valid viewpoint worth “listening” instead of anathemizing it on the spot demontrates a serious heterodoxy.

[17] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 05:53 AM • top

[drive-by comment deleted]

[18] Posted by GladILeft on 06-16-2009 at 05:55 AM • top

mousetalker,
Not a week ago, I was pointing out that Johnson’s Law might apply to bestiality, so people should watch their comments, and here we are, a week later, and look what is going on at the ACO.
Given what we are learning, I am going to postulate TJ’s corollary to Johnson’s Law, which is that as world communications improve, the length of time between the original joke and its adoption as policy by TEC or the Anglican Communion decreases.  In 1906, somebody made a joke about women priests, and it took 70 years to become reality.  Now, in 2009, it take only about 7 days.  Only last year, as I recall, it took at least a month.  So, in this case, I think the fault lies in Greg Griffith and his twitter idea- since he tried to get all SFers on Twitter, this meant that 40,000 revisionists signed on to try to keep up on all our tweets, they saw this bestiality/pederasty thing, and set about immediately adopting it (in keeping with Johnson’s Law).  NOW, here you go with your Bacchanalia idea, and we can figure that it will be a week or less before someone reading that will write a GC amendment to add Bacchus to Holy Women Holy Men, and set an appropriate feast day to coincide with the California grape harvest.

[19] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-16-2009 at 06:00 AM • top

Roman centurions were men under Roman military law. Roman military law forbade homosexual conduct.

I’d have to double check, but I would imagine that any such restrictions applied only to relationships between the soldiers.  I find it extremely unlikely that any laws restricted sexual behavior with one’s own slaves.  Such a concept would have been very un-Roman.

Re nude dancing in celebration of Bacchus:  I get your point, but for the sake I pedantry, I find it extremely unlikely that Pilate, as a respectable Roman governor of the Early Principate, would have been engaging in Bacchanalia celebrations, as they were forbade by law and associated with women, slaves and other unsavory types.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchanalia

tjmchamhon, I’m kind of surprised to learn that the Diocese of California does not already celebrate the Bacchanalia.  Are you sure it hasn’t already been used as a “local option” liturgy somewhere?

[20] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 06:20 AM • top

RW: “Hey Bubba, can ya lemme hold a dolluh?”

[21] Posted by Looking for Leaders on 06-16-2009 at 06:27 AM • top

The section on the merits of pederasty is on page 438 here: http://tinyurl.com/krgwjw from:

Human Sexuality: An Encyclopedia
By Vern L. Bullough, Bonnie Bullough
Edition: illustrated
Published by Taylor & Francis, 1994
ISBN 0824079728, 9780824079727
643 pages

The section on pederasty is written by Stayton. (You can search the document for Stayton.)

The bestiality quote is on page 190:

It is not unusual for humans to also have erotic feeling for a special pet or other animal. While most people do not act on these feelings, some do. Generally, it occurs out of experimentation or when no human partner is available, rather than because a person is eroticized only by animals. Most researchers agre that this type of sexual experimentation is not harmful unless the person is discovered. Then, it is the reaction of the person who discovers the sexual event that can do the most harm psychologically and emotionally, rather than the experience itself.

How twisted. How evil that the American Baptists allow Stayton to be a member of their clergy.

[22] Posted by robroy on 06-16-2009 at 06:32 AM • top

How evil that the American Baptists allow Stayton to be a member of their clergy.

Do they have much of a clergy discipline system, or can individual congregations hire pretty much whoever they want?

[23] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 06:40 AM • top

No surprises here.  Simply follow the money and the agenda reveals the intent behind it.  The problem is trying to attribute something to Christ that is immoral and inconsistent with all that Christ stood for….

But it is not uncommon…this is the liberal revisionist way of proof texting arguing from silence.  I suspect more is to come from GC 09.

[24] Posted by Creighton+ on 06-16-2009 at 06:44 AM • top

Greg writes, “I’m going to suggest we forgo the fun we usually have whenever we find a connection between the Episcopal left and abject perversion…”

Greg, I’m TRYING to cry or get riled up about this. I really am. But when the devil goes around doing things this foolish, it just makes me laugh. Ole Nick is capable of better than this.

To me, this is the human “sexuality” (whatever that is) equivalent of the KTF fiasco. So absurd that nobody should be taking it seriously. Thanks for digging it up.

[25] Posted by Ralph on 06-16-2009 at 06:47 AM • top

Given AbC Williams’ aching desire to Indaba the entire communion to slumber, we need to be asking him directly - “What did you know?” and “When did you know it?” in regard to the Satcher Institute.  In the event of no response, then ratchet the rhetoric up a notch - “When are you going to jettison the Satcher Institute and its $$?”  The conflict of interest inherent in this is massive (and this is a gargantuan understatement).  If this chapter in the saga of the desolation of the AC is allowed to continue unchecked (unasked and unanswered) then a colossal chorus must arise and cry out for Williams’ ouster.  Period.  No negotiation.  No equivocation.

We have had enough of Dr. Williams’ chicanery.  He is NOT a nice person.

Tell me again, why is association with the see of Canterbury the sine qua non of Anglicanism?

[26] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 06-16-2009 at 06:53 AM • top

#6. Sarah Hey,

Which is it?  Did he accept the funding even though he knew?  Or did he accept the funding without knowing?

Well, in the first case, he would be a co-conspirator and in the second he would be an ignoramus. Which would you prefer? For me it is a case of what did he know and when did he know it? He who seeks to save his life shall lose it. (Luke 17:33)

[27] Posted by Fr. Dale on 06-16-2009 at 06:53 AM • top

#24. Creighton,

The problem is trying to attribute something to Christ that is immoral and inconsistent with all that Christ stood for….

When the Pharisees saw Jesus cast out demons, they attributed it to the power of Satan. This is nothing new but I believe it is just one more example of grieving the Holy Spirit. How much longer will God chose to reside with TEC in particular and Canterbury Anglicanism in general?

[28] Posted by Fr. Dale on 06-16-2009 at 07:01 AM • top

#12 - It just occurred to me that Jesus had conversations with several pagans, including the centurion and especially Pilate. He did not condemn their pagan rites to their face. Therefore he approved of them.

I was thinking the same things Mousetalker. What did he expect Jesus to do? “Sorry… I won’t heal him because he’s gay.” This is an example of the left building a straw man for the Christian position and then showing that Jesus didn’t act that way… so he must disaprove of the current Christian position. In reality, Jesus performed all of his healing for sinners.


Is there something we can do about this, other than sit back and talk about what a shame it is?

Of course there is Greg.

Pray.

[29] Posted by Positive Phototaxis on 06-16-2009 at 07:15 AM • top

It seems to me that since I am not a Primate of the AC, nor a bishop of the Church of England, there is precious little I can do about this, other than leave for the Orthodox Church.  Even if I were a Primate or a bishop in the CoE, I might come to the same conclusion.  The almighty JSC- the effective pope and magisterium of the AC- the ONLY “instrument” left after ACO and ABoC destroyed the others- has already blessed this project and the organization behind it.  The ABoC is clearly 100% behind it.  If he weren’t, he would have already called for the resignation of everyone involved in this sordid business.

[30] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-16-2009 at 07:18 AM • top

These views represent the fringe of progressive thinking.  Most revisionists will not accept these forms of sexual behavior as legitimate.  So to the extent they even bother to acknowledge this revelation (and they would much rather bury it, I am sure), they will surely condemn it.  This is roughly equivalent to their ‘abortionist murderer’ moment.  Their initial reaction will be “Don’t group me with people who want to have sex with animals.”

Since liberals view men as authentically good, liberals view the natural desires of man as authentically good.  But liberals do also accept the idea of natural boundaries.  They believe that man (being good) will naturally adopt certain limits on behavior.  Their problem with conservatives is not that we advocate for sexual boundaries, but that we advocate for narrow restricted boundaries.  Contracting the boundaries beyond their authentic limits is called ‘oppression.’

The difference reduces to one of anthropology.  Conservatives view man through a lens of sin.  We see the continued erosion of sexual boundaries as a manifestation of man’s degeneration.  Liberals see it as liberation of the authentic self from oppression; from the authority of power centers (e.g. the “Patriarchy”) that use sex to control & manipulate behavior.  However, liberals think the authentic self (being good) is inherently self-regulating, and will eventually stop the expansion. A conservative sees every step forward on the road of sexual liberation as one more step into darkness.  Liberals see it as one more step towards the fence that they just know is out there, and will find found if we just keep walking towards it.

Liberals have no consistent reason to believe this.  It is simply a presupposition of their liberal world view. And they are bound to it at the hip.  Since their tenets are otherwise so fundamentally antinomian, they have no other way to avoid the logical conclusion of a completely libertine society.  What liberals don’t undertand is that they have been very effective in teaching people how to climb over and tear down fences.  They will be legitimately shocked when nothing stops at their particular fence-line.  They will say “Hey, you can’t do that.”  And in response they will hear “Sez who?”

carl

[31] Posted by carl on 06-16-2009 at 07:22 AM • top

29- You are of course correct, we can (and do) pray.  However, we could do it from Churches that provide Christian pastoral guidance and oversight.

[32] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-16-2009 at 07:22 AM • top

The Satcher Institute donation is the largest in the history of the ACC.  Abp Rowan Williams did not make the announcement.  Canon Kenneth Kearon did not make the announcement.  Then-President Bp John Paterson did not make the announcement.  An underling, the facilitator of the listening process, made the announcement.

[33] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 06-16-2009 at 07:44 AM • top

31, you are spot on.  However, just to belabour a few points:

Don’t group me with people who want to have sex with animals

Just like the heterosexual fornicator that despises homosexuals and says “At least I’m having the right kind of sex.”

liberals view the natural desires of man as authentically good

Except, of course, that paederasty is at least as “natural” as homosexuality, and historically speaking it may actually be more common.

These views represent the fringe of progressive thinking.

They are about as fringe as the whole “Gay Rights” idea was in the 1950’s.  Times they are a changing…

[34] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 07:46 AM • top

Dcn Dale,
God’s Spirit does not automatically “reside” (or indwell) those in TEC whose hearts cling to the idols of power, sexuality, etc., (which is, unfortunately, most of the current leadership) just because they THINK He does.  We are seeing the effect of this “Spirit-less-ness” playing out in TEC as well as other mainline churches- Fools being exposed as fools to even the simplest in the pews, corruption once covered now exposed clearly, etc.

Bishops who have “ordained” or been “ordained” by dirty hands, rather than holy hearts, have no Spirit to guide them, only their appetites. And this presence or absence of God’s Spirit is indeed the very thing that divides our faithful leaders from those who have been “given over” to their lusts. (Romans 1)  We are told to test the Spirits, and SFIF has been VERY HELPFUL to us in that spiritual discipline (insert smiley face)

[35] Posted by cityonahill on 06-16-2009 at 07:49 AM • top

Prayer—http://anglicanprayer.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/continuing-indaba/

[36] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 06-16-2009 at 07:50 AM • top

Whatever Canon Kearon says in response cannot be trusted.  He has already proven himself a liar.
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/22370

To be frank, if the ACC and ACO were to disappear overnight, I would discern absolutely no difference in the life of my parish or my diocese.  It would be far better if the budgetary woes were solved by radical downsizing than by selling the spiritual birthright of the Communion for a mess of pottage.

[37] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 06-16-2009 at 08:03 AM • top

It seems to me that William Slayton seeks to create something that does not exist, but then again, all those like him seem to have been pouring over the texts to look for something they can reconfigure to provide justification for any and all perversion. There is nothing in the citations from Matthew & Luke that establish any such claim. Twisted revisionists like Slayton attempt to redefine two Greek words “pais” and “doulos”

Pais can variously mean (a) a child in relation to descent; (b) a boy or by analogy a girl in relation to age; (here) a slave, servant or attendant of all ages in relation to condition, (c) especially to a King, and (d) by eminence to God. In Luke, the Greek word used is doulos, which refers to slave or involuntary servitude. Neither of those words referred to what Slayton and his fellow perverts are using them to imply.

[38] Posted by mari on 06-16-2009 at 08:30 AM • top

#38 - Mari is right.  Perverted people pervert Scripture.  Hence VGR’s homosex reading of the Bible…in Robinson’s distorted lense every male/male relationship was sexual.  He is projecting…seeing through his own distorted mental vision.

[39] Posted by Theodora on 06-16-2009 at 08:45 AM • top

Well, in the first case, he would be a co-conspirator and in the second he would be an ignoramus. Which would you prefer?

I see him as a co-conspirator! Rowan is not dumb/stupid/naive etc…..He knows exactly what he has been and is doing and with everything he says and does that finally makes it out in the knowledge of the world he gets more revealed for who and what he really is. I have asked the same question that Athanasius Returns has asked above:
“Tell me again, why is association with the see of Canterbury the sine qua non of Anglicanism?”
And to this very day I still have not heard one good answer that makes the See of Canterbury relevant to our faith. Historical will not cut it ...because if history was that important then Rome is a far better connection.

[40] Posted by TLDillon on 06-16-2009 at 08:46 AM • top

To be frank, if the ACC and ACO were to disappear overnight, I would discern absolutely no difference in the life of my parish or my diocese. 

Thanks, Jill (#37).

Given his penchant for progressivist, revisionist, gnostic, nonsensical, illogical rubbish (like the topic post), the same might be said of +Cantuar.

...am awaiting ensuing flames in my fire resistant frock…

[41] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 06-16-2009 at 08:48 AM • top

Oh yes - shame on priestess Weeks for her sponsorship of such a vile and malignant project. 

Shame on *everyone* including the ACNA and Global South saints, all clergy and laity who have not spoken out since the meeting in Jamaica and will not speak out against it and refuse to partake of it. 

If there is not an uproar about the Continuing Indabe Project from the clergy and laity, instead of this deafening silence - shame on all Anglicans.
 
So far, nothing much has been said since the ACC/JSC fiasco. 

Silence about this will mean that we have hoped in vain for the reform of the Anglican church.

[42] Posted by Theodora on 06-16-2009 at 09:03 AM • top

“Continuing Indaba Project,” was announced last month at the Kingston, Jamaica meeting of the Anglican Consultative Council after a briefing by the Archbishop of Canterbury’s Anglican Communion Office (ACO). The staff of the ACO, under the direction of the Archbishop of Canterbury, announced that a $1.5 million gift was given to fund this project-a gift 2-3 times the size of any previous gift received by the Anglican Communion Office for its work, and at a time when financial reports concede diminishing giving and reserves for the troubled Communion.

Exactly from whom or where did 1.5 million dollars come from? Any speculation….guesses…..hunches…...?

[43] Posted by TLDillon on 06-16-2009 at 09:09 AM • top

The answer:
“The Rev. Marta Weeks, a retired Episcopal priest from the diocese of Southeast Florida, has donated $1.5 million to fund the entire project through 2011.”
So it appears that of you pay enough money you get your way and your agenda as the focus! Rowan has no morals nor ethics!

[44] Posted by TLDillon on 06-16-2009 at 09:15 AM • top

The name Satcher seemed familiar to me, so I spent some time googling, and lo and behold, what did I find. Dr. David Satcher, the founder of the Satcher Institute in question, was the Surgeon General of the US under Bill Clinton, and was under consideration by the Obama administration for the position of Secretary of HHS. Dr. David Satcher, and his Satcher Institute were advisors to Representative Tammy Baldwin, a homosexual representative (democrat) from Wisconsin, on her language that vaguely defined “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” in the Matthew Shepherd Act, and advised Baldwin NOT to provide any such definitions, leading to the creation of a loophole, under which pedophilia, bestiality and other such perversions and deviancies can be considered “protected” and “privileged”.

[45] Posted by mari on 06-16-2009 at 09:48 AM • top

My question and concern beyond the obvious horror such views evoke in decent people is this.

How can anyone claim that the outcome of this meeting or process or whatever it is termed will not be corrupted by this funding? Can anyone say with a straight face that such lucre does not have influence?

This now is not only about drawing out the conversation or preventing a conclusion from being reached.  It is about manipulating events so the conclusion desired by one group will be met.

Now that conclusion may not be immediate.  But you can bet any further discussion, study, reviews, revisions and the like that branch off from this will be steered in the “right” direction.  It will be assured that people who are sympathetic or at least open to these views (that of the Satcher Institute at large) will have the greatest positions of influence in any such actions.
These people will steer any debate to reach the consensus they have already determined must be met.  (I forget the name for this but know it has been discussed here before).

Then with that evidence of overwhelming support for a progressive sexual agenda in the Anglican Communion they will make the changes they desire mandatory. Oh sure at first they will throw a crumb or two to the orthodox.
But then in the interest of inclusion and rights do things such as require sexuality education in all parishes, require ministries for youth at risk (you know those youth who are GLBTQ) and require approval of certain parish hirings.

Gone wil be the quaint days of Diocesian and/or parish autonomy. You can be sure the TEC will move towards more centralized power to assure all are on board with fearless leader’s vision.

PS I am trying to imagine the look on Jesus’ face when this momo tries to run his deep view of Scripture and Christ’s own views by Him.  Just what size boots do you suppose Our Lord would put on this jerk’s backside?

[46] Posted by Paula Loughlin on 06-16-2009 at 09:56 AM • top

Inflation has taken its toll now that 30 pieces of silver is up to $1.5-million. What a sewer TEO and Canterbury have become!  Thank God my devout Anglo-Catholic forebears didn’t live to see this repulsive spectacle.

[47] Posted by Long Gone Anglo Catholic on 06-16-2009 at 10:03 AM • top

The real tragedy in all of this is that some GS primates still hold RW in high esteem.

[48] Posted by AhKong2 on 06-16-2009 at 10:10 AM • top

Jill is right.  Here we have the case of too many well educated, bright people without enough real work to do, so they muck things up.  The best thing for them and the communion would be for them to get fired, do away with these useless positions, and then find something real to do with their time and energy.

[49] Posted by Looking for Leaders on 06-16-2009 at 10:15 AM • top

RE: “The best thing for them and the communion would be for them to get fired, do away with these useless positions, and then find something real to do with their time and energy.”
I would love to see this in our State & National government as well.

[50] Posted by TLDillon on 06-16-2009 at 10:20 AM • top

49,  I hear that the last Polor Bear count is in question.

[51] Posted by Paula Loughlin on 06-16-2009 at 10:20 AM • top

GG, just want to say that you are fulfilling the “need for journalists” that is stated in the other new thread.  Great following of leads and great info delivery.  Thanks.  Will look forward to the “what’s next.”

[52] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 06-16-2009 at 10:58 AM • top

[19] tjmcmahon,

With regard to your corollary to Johnson’s Law, have you any feeling whether the time between joke recitation and policy adoption tends toward zero? And if you do have some inkling that it does, do you have an opinion whether the rate of change over time is increasing in a linear or non-linear fashion? wink

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer
LCDR, USN [ret] & Physical Scientist
________________________
Spell Czech is hear two stay!

[53] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 06-16-2009 at 11:01 AM • top

pathetic, self-serving eisegesis…

[54] Posted by aterry on 06-16-2009 at 11:11 AM • top

We have always been told that the liberal sexuality agenda would NEVER lead to sex with animals or children.  Only morons and rubes would ever believe such a thing.

[55] Posted by Nasty, Brutish & Short on 06-16-2009 at 11:38 AM • top

#3 and #20
There are no known copies of a “Code of Military Justice” or something similar produced by the ancient Romans. Most of what we know about military arrangements, regulations, etc. comes to us haphazardly through various Senate speeches, memoirs, and private correspondence.

Being a soldier in the ancient world was a VERY GRIM business, indeed—and the general attitude seems to be that so long as the soldiers performed their assigned duties, they would be granted considerable latitude, as far as their off-duty activities were concerned.

Having said that, we DO know of a number of Roman soldiers (enlisted men. NCOs, and officers of various ranks, including general officers) who were severely punished (whipped within an inch of their lives, demoted to the lowest rank, and then being used much as the army might use slaves, etc. for assuming a “passive” role in some homosexual escapade. We know of other soldiers who were simply “busted in rank” and who received similarly “light” sentences for assuming an “active” role in some homosexual escapade.

Having said this, it is also worth noting that any contemporary “progressive” or “liberal” taking the time to properly read ancient Roman history and/or going through the copious literature produced by the Romans would be shocked to discover how explicitly “homophobic” the ancient Romans were. Homosexual behavior of any sort was looked down upon as being explicitly beyond the pale of morality.

The greatest obstacle that Julius Caesar faced in the course of his (rather long) climb to power was his fairly notorious bisexuality. Lots of sensible people had no difficlty amending the “constitution” of Rome to accomodate a stronger executive branch of government. But we know from hundreds of sources that almost NOBODY wanted to entrust the executive branch of government to a known homosexual—hence, Caesar’s eventual resort to military power to not only amend the constitution, but to assume the highest office himself.

Most proponents of “Gay Rights” that I know are always carrying on about ancient Greece—contending that in ancient Greece, homosexuality was considered “normal,” “mainstream,” and “not a big deal.”

In fact, EVERY Greek city-state had statutes on the books making it a crime. The usual penalty was exile. In Athens (and in most other independent states) homosexual relations with a “child” or an “adolescent” (“childhood” in the ancient world went from birth to age sixteen; adolescence in the ancient world went from sixteen to thirty five) was punishable by death.

I hate the way modern progressives grossly pervert history—or just make it up out of whole cloth—for their purposes.

The Bacchic Rites in ancient Greece were originally practiced by women. Over time, they attracted both women and homosexual men. They were outlawed by the Romans specifically and precisely because they entailed outrageous homosexual activities—and were explicitly perceived by the Senate to be an attempt on the part of homosexuals to “normalize” their behavior under the cloak of “religion.” . The penalty for practicing these rites was, in fact, death. This law is certainly one instance in the ancient Roman legal code where homosexuality was proscribed. There may be others. I would have to look it up.

[56] Posted by bluenarrative on 06-16-2009 at 11:42 AM • top

bluenarrative, could you point to some sources for your comments about the Greeks? They don’t match what I was taught in an introductory Greek classics class many years ago -particularly as concerns the Spartans. This subject has become so politically charged that in my own reading I’m not inclined to trust sources more recent than, oh, gee. I don’t know. Fairly far back. :-(

Tangentially related to this thread, I have wondered whether the number of sex crimes has increased with our increasing sexual freedom?

[57] Posted by oscewicee on 06-16-2009 at 11:50 AM • top

Well, I guess it is a badge of honor to have your comments deleted. Surly wasn;t a drive by, by rather a reiteration as to the reason I left TEC, then the Anglican Communion. Each must do what is in their conscience, but the work of evil and corruption is becoming more evident every day. If it wasn;t for AAC, StandFirm, etc. this would not be exposed. Maybe one day there will be a movie made called “All the Bishop’s Indaba”. And as much as I soooooo want to ask the question who will play <the character exposing the secrets>, I will restrain myself.
“He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts.” 1 Cor 4:5

[58] Posted by GladILeft on 06-16-2009 at 11:52 AM • top

#56—Could you also define “adolescence”? I find it most difficult to accept your assertion that

adolescence in the ancient world went from sixteen to thirty five

[59] Posted by Fidela on 06-16-2009 at 12:10 PM • top

#56, I love to discuss classical history and will gladly do so via email or what have you. However, I fear discussing it here is very much off-topic.

I live in both dread and fear of the Commenatrix.

wink

[60] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 06-16-2009 at 12:18 PM • top

mousestalker,

Agreed - let’s keep classical history offline for the time being.

You TEC folks - do you have your bishop’s email and/or snail-mail addresses?

You non-TEC folks - do you have a way to get an email or letter to your primate?

[61] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-16-2009 at 12:22 PM • top

Greg,
I know how to send things and letters to Abp. Gregory Venables and will do so. Anyone else out there in the temporary cover of the So. Cone please do so as well.

[62] Posted by TLDillon on 06-16-2009 at 12:26 PM • top

So where do you turn now for a church? I’ve had it with the Roman Catholics, who talk the talk but don’t walk the walk and are deficient in other ways, too; and I’ve had it with the Anglicans, who seem hopeless. I love the liturgy and the music and the traditions and the fellowship I’ve found in our Episcopal church, which is a really good one, but I’m thoroughly disgusted at this point with organized religion. My son was just saying the same thing the other day, and there wasn’t really any argument I could give him.

[63] Posted by Nellie on 06-16-2009 at 12:31 PM • top

I have an email for my bishop, but it doesn’t really go through to him but to someone in his office, of course. Snail mail, ditto. Would it be of any use to send this to the standing committee as well?

(Sorry for the classics sidetrack - but I’d be glad to hear privately from anyone who can answer my question.)

[64] Posted by oscewicee on 06-16-2009 at 12:32 PM • top

Ruth Gledhill of The Times has picked up the story, so it will quickly get around, I imagine.

Some of the first (liberal) commenters have, predictably, accused us of being ‘obsessed with sex’.

[65] Posted by English Jill on 06-16-2009 at 12:36 PM • top

Nellie,
Your statement reminded me of St. Paul and the church in Corinth. I know he had to have lost his patience with them on more than one occasion. But he never abandoned them and continued to pray for them and try and lead them in the right direction. No one especially Jesus, said it would be easy to be a Christian, in fact quite the contrary. the Apostles were very much organized which is why we should continue in an organized religion but realize it isn’t suppose to be easy and relaxed.

[66] Posted by TLDillon on 06-16-2009 at 12:37 PM • top

tjmcmahon said…

“there is precious little I can do about this, other than leave for the Orthodox Church.”


We’ll leave the light on for ya.

[67] Posted by The Pilgrim on 06-16-2009 at 12:39 PM • top

Amen Pilgrim.  And Nellie, there’s a great bumper sticker that says, “Orthodoxy: Disorganized religion at its finest.”

[68] Posted by Miss Sippi on 06-16-2009 at 12:42 PM • top

English Jill…you are correct. See below from a commenter on another site:

The far right is having a field day with their reporting - however it seems they are all wrong about the gift.

from http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/anglican_communion/listening_process_funding_sour.html

or http://tinyurl.com/kvy7cb
In a statement issued to the press—the ACC the donor wrote that there are NO strings attached to funding. The donor will NOT be involved in any aspect of the Indaba Listening Project. She trusts the Archbishop of Canterbury and Anglican Communion to use the funds as needed to carry out the process. Read it all here in pdf. (see web site)

I can safely say that this commenter is a lesbian cleric.

[69] Posted by TLDillon on 06-16-2009 at 12:48 PM • top

Love the bumper sticker, Miss Sippi!

[70] Posted by Nellie on 06-16-2009 at 12:50 PM • top

#69 If the funds were donated by the IRD or the AAC with no strings attached, do you think you would hear screaming from the revisionists?  The nice people at the ACO and at Satcher (I do not say that sarcastically) could not tell me who dreamed up the Continuing Indaba Project/CESH partnership nor could they tell me who shook on the deal. No strings are attached, yet CESH will monitor the spending? 
Look at this video starting at 74:45. http://av01.msm.edu/mediasite/Viewer/Viewers/ViewerVideoOnly.aspx?mode=Default&peid=f283a802-c1bb-4419-b2b1-fcfb899e5723&playerType=WM7&mode=Default&shouldResize=true&pid=7146c208-820d-4bd2-9995-20bfb9adf054&playerType=WM7#
CESH was looking for a major project involving sex and religion. The Anglican Communion certainly has plenty of subject matter to study, doesn’t it?
By the way, that video is of the National Advisory Council on Sexual Health (part of CESH) meeting in March 2008 which featured speakers on religion. The intro and afternoon session are available here: http://av01.msm.edu/mediasite/catalog/
The Muslim representative is a feminist academician.  How representative is that of Islam?

[71] Posted by Ralinda on 06-16-2009 at 01:38 PM • top

I will not stand for the insulting of Roman soldiers. John Wayne was a Roman soldier, for Pete’s sake. These guys are spitting on the Duke’s grave.

[72] Posted by robroy on 06-16-2009 at 01:42 PM • top

BTW, the hate crimes legislation I was talking about is being pushed through the senate for a vote, either today or tomorrow. Because of the loopholes within it, essentially it’s a vehicle to compromise age of consent laws, and allow adults to exploit children sexually, the senate knows it can’t get passed on it’s own. So the dem majority have attached it to the tourism law that they are debating now. They do not want it subjected to full senate debate, as would be required were it to have to stand on it’s own. Please contact your senators and tell them how you feel, and demand they vote now,and encourage others to do so.

[73] Posted by mari on 06-16-2009 at 01:43 PM • top

If bluenarrative would like to dispute classical history, I will gladly do so via the private message function, however the short answer is that while he is correct that homosexuality as it commonly practiced today was condemned, and i<i>foricble rape was indeed punishable by death, paederasty was common in Greece and was non unusual (though less accepted) in Rome.  This has been well documented by many generations of scholars and is by no means a modern invention.  Contemporary GLBT activists did not invent the stories of Ganymede and Hyacinth, write the Mousa Paidike or Erotes…

[74] Posted by AndrewA on 06-16-2009 at 01:49 PM • top

This thread will likely balloon to 200 comments before long. I’d be happy if most of them were on-topic… hint hint.

[75] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-16-2009 at 01:52 PM • top

AndrewA, the fact is, certain writers in later eras conflated the incidences those things to make it appear to have been more common.

[76] Posted by mari on 06-16-2009 at 02:16 PM • top

Ralinda….I did not write the comment in blockquote in my 69 post. A lesbian cleric did from another site….I’m not siding with her I’m putting up what is being said. I do think that when people give a large sum of money, especially in the 6-7 figure digit range they do expect their cause to gt furthered. Lobbists come to mind. I do not care one wit what type of an organization or what type of a person donates money because they do it with the intention of furthering that particular cause or function. But I do agree with Paula Loughlin in #46:

“How can anyone claim that the outcome of this meeting or process or whatever it is termed will not be corrupted by this funding? Can anyone say with a straight face that such lucre does not have influence?

This now is not only about drawing out the conversation or preventing a conclusion from being reached.  It is about manipulating events so the conclusion desired by one group will be met.”

[77] Posted by TLDillon on 06-16-2009 at 02:18 PM • top

#68 - how about this: “Orthodoxy: Truth for over 2000 years”
#69 and 71 - if the ABC decided to use it to discuss the superiority of Anglo Saxons, how long you think the support would continue?

[78] Posted by GladILeft on 06-16-2009 at 02:31 PM • top

I’m believe I must (under conviction) re-visit & revise my post #39:  People whose identities and desires are disoriented (most often due to disrupted attachments, conflicted relationship dynamics, shame) have distorted lenses with which they view Scripture.  For example, when VGR reads Scripture, his distorted lense sees every male/male relationship as sexual.  He is projecting… seeing all things through his own needs and mental emotional perspective.

[79] Posted by Theodora on 06-16-2009 at 03:26 PM • top

“Most researchers agre that this type of sexual experimentation is not harmful unless the person is discovered. Then, it is the reaction of the person who discovers the sexual event that can do the most harm psychologically and emotionally, rather than the experience itself”.

You know, even the animals’ instincts tell them that they’re not supposed to do the nasty with anything other than their own species(and, with the exception of about two species in the world, all the couplings are male-female). 

Uh, I thought that humans were supposed to be more intellectually-developed than the animals—guess I had it wrong.

[80] Posted by Passing By on 06-16-2009 at 03:33 PM • top

The sort of researchers who infer that that sort of sexual experimentation isn’t harmful, sound like the same sort of apologists who still excuse Kinsey’s actions. I can only surmise that those sort of “researchers” are deviants themselves.

The stone cold truth is, those rationalizers are fixated on their own interests, and are indifferent to the harm they cause to others. They are in complete denial and the worst sort of monsters.

[81] Posted by mari on 06-16-2009 at 05:17 PM • top

According to Ralinda B. Gregor’s AAC report:

“However, Canon Groves (of the Anglican Communion Office) told this reporter that the Satcher CESH will exercise some control of the process by monitoring project spending to ensure the funds are being used “as intended.” Groves added that CESH will also conduct an ecumenical study of the project to evaluate its effectiveness and suitablity for use by other faiths and denominations.”

If CESH monitors the use of funds to see if they are being used “as intended” by CESH, shouldn’t the Anglican Communion Primates be informed what the “intended” uses of these donated funds are so they can monitor their “effectiveness and suitablity” for the Anglican Communion? 
I also wonder if the Ford Foundation monitors CESH programs in order to ensure that the funds they donate to CESH are being used as objectively “as intended” because contrary to what Christian Thrasher,(Sachers director of the CESH) says, it appears that the Rev. Marta Weeks $1.5 million dollar donation does come with strings attached to both the ACO and CESH.

[82] Posted by Betty See on 06-16-2009 at 05:55 PM • top

#59 Our modern concept of “adolescence” derives from an ancient Roman legal concept, though it is now, obviously much changed. For the purposes of Roman law, a man’s life was divided into three parts: “childhood” (birth to 12 up until about 100 AD, thereafter from birth to 16, “adolescence” (from 12—or 16 to age 35), and “adulthood” (35 to death.) Each of these entailed specific rights and responsibilities from a legal point of view. For instance, one could not hold any number of significant political offices prior to one’s 35th birthday. Our founding fathers in America paid heed to Roman law when writing our constitution and setting age restrictions on certain political offices. The lines of demarcation were somewhat different for women. The important point to keep in mind, however, is that in ancient Rome anybody UNDER the age of 35 was considered to be less than fully “adult” and the law, accordingly, was designed to “protect” such “minors.” In the context of this thread, I am simply noting that a 36 year old man having sexual relations with a 34 year old man would have been considered, in Roman law, to be a predatory pedophile—and, while the younger man would suffer no significant legal ramifications from such a relationship, the older most certainly would have felt the full measure of Roman “justice” in a court of law. The Roman legal code says nothing about homosexual relationships between men of identical or similar ages. But the fact that it forthrightly condemns a 36 year old man, say, for having sexual relations with a 34 year old man should give you some sense of how intolerant the Romans were, as far as homosexuality is concerned.

Citations and sources will be provided to anybody who wants to message me privately. Obviously, there has been homosexuality in all times and all places, and it has worked its way into the fabric and mythos of various cultures in different ways. My point is simply this: the idea that homosexuality was “accepted” in the ancient Greco-Roman world is largely a myth concocted by modern apologists for their homosexual agenda.

[83] Posted by bluenarrative on 06-16-2009 at 07:50 PM • top

Even if the bestiality/pederasty/polyamory issues had not come up, I am uncomfortable with a secular organization supporting the Church in its discernment of a moral issue.  It strikes me as being defiant, leaning on a source other than God.  I’m sure lots of folks would disagree with me, but that is my heart.

[84] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 06-16-2009 at 08:06 PM • top

So complicated and expensive, fighting the fact that the Lord Jesus thought as Moses thought!

[85] Posted by Dr. Priscilla Turner on 06-16-2009 at 08:49 PM • top

bluenarrative, you don’t seem to know your history, or you assumed you could make something up to hide behind. In ancient Rome, a boy became an adult at age 18.  Girls were considered women at 18 as well, but they were required to live in their father’s house until they were married.

Roman culture was always very family oriented. While it was true that there were homosexuals in Roman society, they were considered deviant. No amount of mythologizing can change that fact for you.

[86] Posted by mari on 06-16-2009 at 08:50 PM • top

I’d just like to point out that in two weeks time, Rev Kaeton assured us that Dr Tiller is in Jesus’s embrace, Rev Ragsdale called Dr Tiller a saint, Bp Charles is compiling a collection of essays on the use of entheogens, and we learn that Rev Stayton, indaba monitor, has an open attitutde concerning bestiality/pornography/polyamory/pederasty/abortion.  How bad does it have to get before our leaders speak out?

[87] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 06-16-2009 at 09:18 PM • top

Please pardon a personal message.

Dr. Turner (#84),

I’m sorry that I was unable to contact you when you tried to send me a PM recently.  My message box is full, and I can’t access it currently, and apparrently I won’t until Greg gets our new system in place.

I wasn’t ignoring you, or refusing to answer.

Thanks for your forbearnace, everyone.

David Handy+

[88] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 06-16-2009 at 09:22 PM • top

Jill, #87,
I also hope that our leaders (Bishops) will speak out because if they remain silent they may find out that the ACO, the Presiding Bishop, Rev. Kaeton, Rev. Ragsdale, Rev. Staton, Rev. Marta Weeks, and other activists have purchased and usurped the Bishop’s position as leaders of the church.
I pray that this will not happen.

[89] Posted by Betty See on 06-16-2009 at 09:56 PM • top

Carl-

Thanks for post 31. Your posts are always so articulate and I enjoy reading them.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[90] Posted by FenelonSpoke on 06-16-2009 at 11:20 PM • top

[90] FenelonSpoke

Well ... I am a Dallas Cowboys fan.  wink

I greatly appreciate the sentiment.

carl

[91] Posted by carl on 06-16-2009 at 11:38 PM • top

Jill Woodliff asked…

Rev Kaeton ... Rev Ragsdale ... Bp Charles ... Rev Stayton, ...  How bad does it have to get before our leaders speak out?

Jill, those are your leaders, and they are speaking out very clearly.

[92] Posted by The Pilgrim on 06-17-2009 at 02:26 AM • top

#84, Jill - It’s a measure of how far the rot of revisionism has spread that we are discussing the Church “discerning moral issues” after 2000 years of Christianity and Bible reading.  What’s to discern?  It’s all spelled out in the Book.

BTW, thanks for your prayer ministry here.  Bless you.

[93] Posted by Long Gone Anglo Catholic on 06-17-2009 at 02:28 AM • top

Who is this Jesus guy anyway?  Everybody is talking as if he’s some kind of authority.

But I don’t remember voting for him - whoever he is.

[94] Posted by jedinovice on 06-17-2009 at 05:10 AM • top

In order to get this thread back on topic and contribute to Greg’s original question, I don’t think there is any harm in sending this information to all the GC2009 delegates, diocesan Standings Committees and bishops within ECUSA, but I doubt that it will have much impact, except perhaps on the more moderate people. What about having an information stand at GC2009? It would certainly be helpful to send this to all the bishops in the Anglican Communion, to wise them up to what is being pushed through by the ACO.

I would have thought the Rowan Williams would have been intelligent enough to know of the agenda behind the offer of funding from CESH, but perhaps he wasn’t aware of some of the writings and views of individuals behind CESH, ie

[95] Posted by fyffee on 06-17-2009 at 05:42 AM • top

sorry - continued from post 95 - the individuals I refer to are Weeks and Stayton. Perhaps a letter with supporting evidentiary documentation to RW would be in order with a plea for him to step back from this process, endorsed by the GC Primates.

[96] Posted by fyffee on 06-17-2009 at 05:46 AM • top

fyffee, I think you are being naive. Whether or not he knows the source of the money (and I think he does) and whether or not he is aware of what conditions have been made (I am certain he does) for spending it, the process of continuing indaba is so near and dear to his heart that I doubt anything anyone says or does will dissuade him from his course.

The Archbishop of Canterbury is committed to keeping everyone together. That is the sum total of his policies. As long as no one leaves, then in his mind, he is successful. The money donated is being used for exactly that purpose. If ever ‘an instrument of unity’ actually defines something or reaches consensus on anything concrete, someone will leave, whether it is the Global South or the North Americans. So decision is what the AoC fears most. Process in perpetuity is his goal.

[97] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 06-17-2009 at 05:54 AM • top

“The Archbishop of Canterbury is committed to keeping everyone together.”

Which is why large portions of the Anglican Communion need to say “We aren’t leaving the Communinion, but we are through playing your games.”

[98] Posted by AndrewA on 06-17-2009 at 06:04 AM • top

#97.mousestalker,

the process of continuing indaba is so near and dear to his heart that I doubt anything anyone says or does will dissuade him from his course.

This reminds me of an obsession of Harrison Ford in the Movie “Mosquito Coast”. It was a vision of a good life that went very wrong in the Amazon Jungles as his character becomes more obsessed and less realistic as he drags his family further and further into the hell of his vision gone wrong.

[99] Posted by Fr. Dale on 06-17-2009 at 07:31 AM • top

The ABoC views “indaba” as nothing more than a device to control discussion and outcome, it’s not used in a valid way, he allows it to be used to dictate. Both sides do not get to debate, total control is given to one side, the side that profits him.

The fact that the ABoC has not issued a public statement harshly condemning the vile attacks against Nazir Ali by his own staff and the threats, or against those who threaten converts from Islam to Christianity. The fact that he sought to hush up criticism of corrupt MPs. How he expressed his bias in Jamaica, and is indifferent to the oppression of faithful Anglicans, and the flouting of the canons and laws by his TEC friends.

It is impossible to view him as bumbling or naive, he is fully complicit.

[100] Posted by mari on 06-17-2009 at 08:50 AM • top

Article by Dennis Prager:

Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism Rejected Homosexuality

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html

[101] Posted by ctowles on 06-17-2009 at 09:22 AM • top

I am surprized that no one has taken exception to the Luke and Matthew scriptures as indicating pederasty much less approval by Jesus. First, both passages are about the same event. Second, there is nothong at all to indicate any sexual relationship. We need to expose poor Biblical scholarship rather than gloss over it. The whole argument collapses immediately when one actually reads the Holy Scpritures cited.

[102] Posted by Parson from SWFLA on 06-17-2009 at 09:49 AM • top

Parson, there have been past discussion on this blog, including links to scholarly articles, about why the passages in question do not indicate a sexual relationship.  I saw no reason to cover that ground again.

[103] Posted by AndrewA on 06-17-2009 at 09:53 AM • top

“It would be better for you to hang a millstone around your neck and throw yourself into the sea(commit suicide) than to harm one of MY little ones.” “All things may be lawful, but not all things are beneficial.” Where is the benfit in molesting children? Are we serving Jesus or Molech?  (quotes from Holy scripture)

[104] Posted by Calhoun on 06-17-2009 at 02:06 PM • top

Anybody know how one does get in touch with Archbishop Venables? He’ll only be my primate for a few more days, but I’ll happy voice my opinion on Dr. Satcher and Indaba and what-all. Wendy Scott Paff

[105] Posted by English teacher on 06-17-2009 at 02:40 PM • top

sorry, that should be “happily”

[106] Posted by English teacher on 06-17-2009 at 02:41 PM • top
[107] Posted by TLDillon on 06-17-2009 at 02:48 PM • top

Where is the benfit in molesting children

What is the benefit of sodomy between men?

Having read a bunch of NAMBLA style propaganda I could play devil’s advocate on this, but I think most people here would find an extended conversation of that nature disturbing, so I will confine myself to just this one post. 

Suffice it to say, those that argue that such things should be acceptable would say that your question is inherently biased, and that adult-child sexual contact is not inherently “molesting” or “abusive”.  Instead they would argue, as the homosexuals do for their sexual practices, that it can be an expression of love that is as pure, selfless, and positive as any love between a man and a woman. 

They would attribute the negative apects of adult-child sexual contact to the problems caused by the taboos and laws surrounding the issue.  IE, the law forces such relationships to be underground therefore we only ever hear about the ones were the child complained, emotional distress is caused by the condemnation of society rather than anything inherently wrong with such relationships, “If it is a crime to have sex with kids only criminals will have sex with kids” etc.

They could say that kids are as capable of consenting to sex as they are of consenting to playing football, riding in a car, or giving their auntie a good night kiss.  They would say that kids are sexual creatures and that the large amounts of underage sexual activity means that kids enjoy sex. 

They would say that APA classifications of pedophilia as a paraphile are caused by society’s biases, and are subject to change, just as homosexualty is now accepted by the APA.

None of the above arguments are ultimatly convinving to me, because paederasty fails to live up to the ultimate Christian standard of confining sexual relations to a specific marital context.  But then again, the same can be said of homosexuality and heterosexual fornication.

[108] Posted by AndrewA on 06-17-2009 at 02:52 PM • top

Thank you TLDillon. I emailed Archbiship Venables and will also send a letter snail mail. I believe I will be able to contact my next archbishop by the end of the month cool smile (I never used a smiley before. Definitely odd.)

[109] Posted by English teacher on 06-17-2009 at 03:13 PM • top

1.  Rowan of all people DOES NOT deserve a pass of any kind on this one.  The queen should have him defrocked, drawn and quartered for allowing Stayton and his happy little band of perverts to within 100 meters of the palace.  Or any church.  He knows darn well who these folks are and should be held accountable for them being invited to the table.

2.  Sex is Stayton and his minions’ God.  Not Jesus Christ.  Not the God of Abraham, Issac and Moses.  Sex in all forms, the more perverted the better.

3.  The whole stupid “Indaba” process is nothing more than a smoke screen/delay tactic.  It’s “dragging your feet” (or maybe another body part south of the waist on the backside) with a neat-sounding name.

4.  I install software on every computer and TV in the house so my boys don’t go crazy watching porn.  Despite being raised in a Christian home and in church they are as drawn to it as flies to honey.  For this idiot Stayton to say that porn doesn’t “hurt anyone” or that having sex with animals isn’t bad “unless they are discovered” is the most stupid thing I have ever heard.  Someone please slap him and wake him up…

Stayton and TEC-style Indaba - brought to you in part by our sponsor Satan, who prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.  Apparently the entire TEC is on the menu at this point…holy cow.

[110] Posted by B. Hunter on 06-17-2009 at 04:03 PM • top

David, #88, and hideously OT: it was a wholly trivial message asking what on earth you meant by “kudo’s”. (I thought that I had saved my text as a draft, but it has vanished.) Your ‘word’ seemed like a combination of ignorance of Greek with what at home we call ‘greengrocer’s punctuation’, along the lines of “fresh tomato’s”.

Much kudos, pronounced kewdoss, (origin Gk. κῦδος, a singular noun meaning ‘honour-n-glory’) to you!

[111] Posted by Dr. Priscilla Turner on 06-17-2009 at 04:13 PM • top

NO MORE INDABA. NO MORE INDABA. NO MORE INDABA.  No more RDW fixes either.  Oust the AbC.  He is patently useless as a leader.

[112] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 06-17-2009 at 04:13 PM • top

#110 - B Hunter - you said it.

I am not signing onto the ACNA unless the Continuing Indaba Project and the ACC, JSC, AC and the ABC have been repudiated publicly and in writing and unless abortion is condemned by every orthodox Archbishop and Bishop and Priest of the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans. 

Rick Warren is now playing footsie with Obama (alias Obortion) and with ‘gay’ and muslim groups to implement his P.E.A.C.E. plan and Warren has been silent on abortion, therefore it is disturbing that he is speaking at the ACNA meeting.

In this sick world, the Church is to cherish, guard shine with God’s Holy Truth, Love and Life. 

Instead, the Church has been distorting, defiling, hedging, compromising and darkening these three sacred signs of God.

[113] Posted by Theodora on 06-17-2009 at 04:35 PM • top

Amen, Athanasius Returns #112!!!

NO MORE INDABA
NO MORE DIALOGUE
NO MORE LISTENING
NO MORE COMPROMISE
NO MORE TOLERANCE OF EVIL

[114] Posted by Theodora on 06-17-2009 at 04:45 PM • top

I always enjoyed Baby Blue Anglican’s dramatic reading of “The Essence of INDABA”:

http://web.me.com/maryailes/BabyBlueCafe/BabyBlueOnline/Entries/2008/7/10_The_Essence_of_Indaba.html

[115] Posted by TXThurifer on 06-17-2009 at 06:19 PM • top

Thanks, Dr. Turner (#111), for giving us all a little Greek lesson about the proper use of kudos.  I’m glad to know that your PM to me was about such a trivial matter, since I wasn’t able to respond in a timely way.

In my defense as a NT scholar, however, let me add that the mistake in my #88 was less a case of ignorance of Greek than of haste and carelessness.  As regular readers of SF know all too well, my posts are often marred by sloppy spelling and minor grammatical errors.

Axios!  You are axios of kudos yourself.

David Handy+

[116] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 06-17-2009 at 08:01 PM • top

Comments are unnecessary. Just send this report to each person you know that still has his or her head in the sand.

[117] Posted by Going Home on 06-22-2009 at 11:30 PM • top

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