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A Biblical Theology of Marriage and Sexual Relations

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 • 11:19 pm

I thought it would be good and helpful to present a positive position on sexual behaviour and practice from scripture. So many of us know the prohibitions on homosexual (and other) behaviour and the exegetical arguments have been adequately made (but not listened to by those proposing that we all "listen"). Nevertheless there is, I believe, a far more powerful argument for sexual morality and behaviour that stems out of the positive assertions on sexual behaviour and identity that scripture gives us.

My method will be simple, going through the scriptures in order to show the growing and developing picture on this subject and the implications that scripture derives therefrom. There may be other implications but, for the moment, I want to restrict myself to those set out in scripture.

This is, then, a scriptural argument and doesn't pretend to be anything else. I trust, though, that it will be of use to you all as you continue to graciously engage with our honourable opponents.

Friends,

I thought it would be good and helpful to present a positive position on sexual behaviour and practice from scripture. So many of us know the prohibitions on homosexual (and other) behaviour and the exegetical arguments have been adequately made (but not listened to by those proposing that we all "listen"). Nevertheless there is, I believe, a far more powerful argument for sexual morality and behaviour that stems out of the positive assertions on sexual behaviour and identity that scripture gives us.

My method will be simple, going through the scriptures in order to show the growing and developing picture on this subject and the implications that scripture derives therefrom. There may be other implications but, for the moment, I want to restrict myself to those set out in scripture.

This is, then, a scriptural argument and doesn't pretend to be anything else. I trust, though, that it will be of use to you all as you continue to graciously engage with our honourable opponents.

The Foundation in Creation


Sexual identity and behaviour is set out almost from the word go (or, more accurately, from the words, "let there be...").

In the first Creation account we read the following:
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth." 27 God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it! Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground."

Immediately a number of things to note:

  1. Humanity is made in the image of God. Much is made of this simple statement but do note how the scripture itself understands this statement: "God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them." Thus, at this stage all we can say about being "in the image of God" is that mankind is made male and female. From the outset we have 2 assertions. Mankind is deliberately created with distinctions between male and female. These distinctions are, somehow, a reflection of the very nature of God. Later, theologians will explore the Trinitarian nature of this statement.
  2. This male and female mankind are immediately commanded to "be fruitful and multiply". While it is clearly not the totality of their raison d'etre it is obviously a significant part and it presupposes what has immediately preceded - that humanity is male and female and thus reproductive.

From the start, then, we see mankind viewed in terms of a sexual reproductive heterosexual couple. Indeed the very "image of God" in humanity is defined in these terms.

The second, anthropocentric, Creation account expands upon these details. (This is obviously not the place to begin a discussion about the 2 Creation accounts. At this point all I want to note is that they have 2 very different foccii - the first is very much concerned with the good order of God's Creation and the second is far more centred on mankind).
Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion for him who corresponds to him." 19 The LORD God formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man named all the animals, the birds of the air, and the living creatures of the field, but for Adam no companion who corresponded to him was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was asleep, he took part of the man's side and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one will be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and unites with his wife, and they become a new family. 25 The man and his wife were both naked, but they were not ashamed.

Here we see a single man, Adam, who is alone and needs companionship. None of God's good creatures are suitable for the task and so another is formed. She is altogether different since she is from him. Bruggemman notes that the language of "bone" and "flesh" may very well denote both strength and weakness. Here, then, is one with whom Adam can share both weakness and strength. There is a true union. Immediately we are given a pradigmatic statement on marriage - the first institution in the Bible. Finally there is a closeness of relationship spoken of in terms of unashamed nakedness.

What do we make of this? Well, the point surely is clear. Humanity as the image of God is made up of males and females in relationship with each other. Do you want to see humanity or the image of God? Then there is no better place to look than a good heterosexual marriage. This does, of course, raise interesting issues about the role of singleness and so on - again I don't propose to address them here (although they are necessarily important questions). My purpose here is to speak about how the Bible proposes sexual relationships should be positively understood.

It is, perhaps, too simplistic to speak of God creating "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", but the argument is still a strong one. It takes the most incredible blindness not to see this basic pattern of male/female partnership as instrinsically fundamental to how God has ordered his very good Creation, before anything happened to spoil it.

The effect of the Fall


The description of the Fall in Gen. 3 is well known. I don't intend to repeat it here but want to draw out the implications of that event upon the framework that has already been established.

Adam was left with a duty of husbandly care for Eve. That much is clear from the timeline of Gen 2. where he is given instructions about the Garden (2:16-17) prior to Eve's creation (2:18 et seq). The point is more forcefully made in the text. Have you ever wondered why Adam is given the blame for the entry of sin (Rom. 5:12) when it was Eve who took the fruit? The answer is right there:
Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.

Adam was there with her! He stood by the whole time and watched as Eve was led astray by the serpent. The one who had been given the instruction about the fruit stood by as the instruction was ignored. It was his task to husband Eve and stop her. Instead, he "listened" to his wife and thus is the one responsible.
Gen 2:17 But to Adam he said, "Because you obeyed your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you...

The word here for "listen" or "obey" encompasses both the hearing of something and obedient response. Adam was led by Eve when he should have been leading her. The relational curse because of this action is declared by God:
Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your labor pains; with pain you will give birth to children. You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you."

It is a frightening thing. Childbirth, the very centre of their first command from God, is now painful. And their relationship is now strained. Eve's willing submission to the husband who cares for her has become a desire to control (the same word used in Gen 4:7 where God speaks of sin seeking to control Cain. She will now nag him, manipulate him, do everything that married women have done since then to bend their husbands to their will.
Not that this is simply an indictment upon women, though. Adam' s loving husbandry will now become domination. Where before he would have given his all for his bride now he seeks to simply pull her into line.

Those of us who are married or who have watched marriages will not bother pretending that this is not reality. Way before we learned that Men were from Mars and Women were from Venus it could clearly be seen that these are default positions amongst sinful people. Wives nag, husbands dominate. It may not be a politically correct observation but it is the truth.

Thus, God's very good creative intent is now cursed by God Himself as a punishment for wrongdoing.

As an aside, I am constantly amazed by Christians who get married but have never had these fundamental descriptions of human nature laid out to them in their marriage preparation. Right at the start of all we are told about God's actions in the world is the fundamental unit of the family and male/female relationships. That we would not go there with people who want to be married and show them both God's intention and then the basic pattern of sin inside marriage is beyond me.

So where are we? We have seen from the start that sexual behaviour is placed solidly in heterosexual monogamous marriage. This is not just a description of one way of ordering things but the very climax of Creation - more than that it gives us an insight into the very nature of God. There is a unity in marriage ("the two will become one flesh") that is echoed in the language of God' s self-revelation elsewhere, "the LORD your God is One" (Dt. 6:4). The language is the same - that of fundamental unity.

Marriage as a picture of God's relationship with His people


While the idea of marriage in some way being "the image of God" is a theme initially, it is another idea that begins to take over as scripture progresses, that of the marriage relationship mirroring that between God and His people.

This comes to fruition in the time leading up to the Exile, where the nation is repeatedly portrayed as an adulterous wife. So, for example,
Hosea 3:1 The LORD said to me, "Go, show love to your wife again, even though she loves another man and continually commits adultery. Likewise, the LORD loves the Israelites although they turn to other gods and love to offer raisin cakes to idols."

Jeremiah 3:1 "If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and becomes another man's wife, he may not take her back again. Doing that would utterly defile the land. But you, Israel, have given yourself as a prostitute to many gods. So what makes you think you can return to me?" says the LORD.

and so on.
Again and again the analogy is the same - God is the faithful husband who has cleaved to his bride. The bride, however, is adulterous and whores after other lovers. The picture sheds new light upon Gen. 2 for we see the same model there. It is the husband who cleaves to his wife in a unilateral manner. It is his devotion to her, not hers to him (although it may certainly exist) that holds the marriage together. In the same way it is the cleaving of God to His people that guarantees the relationship. Just as the husband is given primary responsibility and husbandry, so God takes the same place in the matrimonial relationship with His people.

Here, then, is the first major flaw in the heterodox suggestion that homosexuals may be "married". Marriage in scripture reflects the relationship between God and His people. They are asymmetrical partners. One is the loving leading husband, the other the loved led wife. Homosexual marriage removes this distinction leaving 2 symmetrical partners. The parallel thus collapses. It is simply false to view the relationship between God and His people in this way. On the very basis on which the parallel is asserted the model actually breaks down for homosexual partnerships. There is no God and His people, husband and his wife - there is simply husband and husband or wife and wife; God and His God or the Church and their Church.

The pattern continues in the New Testament


The Incarnation of our Lord brings no change to this understanding. Jesus Himself affirms the Created order of marriage (Matt. 19, Mark 10). He deliberately quotes the foundational texts in Gen. 2 that we have seen above with the scathing introduction "have you not read...".

The metaphor of bride and husband is also readily picked up in Jesus's parables. Jesus is the bridegroom that has come to His people (Luke 5:34), and the Second Coming is spoken of in terms of a wedding day with the bridegroom going to get his bride (Luke 12:36ff; Matt. 22, 25 etc.).

The Apostle Paul makes the same link when he speaks to Christians about their marriages (Eph. 5:22ff). Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church, giving themselves up for her. Wives are called to submit to this. Again, it is an assymetrical relationship. Indeed, it is striking that there is no command (as far as I can tell) for a wife to love her husband - the onus is on the husband to love the wife.

Some would reject Paul's teaching here as cultural - but it is noteworthy that he does not argue from culture - quite the opposite. He consistently urges Christians "not to be conformed" (Rom 12:1-2) to the pattern of this world. His argument from marriage is not from culture but from Creation - this is how God has always intended it.
Eph5:31 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great– but I am actually speaking with reference to Christ and the church.


This picture is taken up, again, in the apocalyptic vision of the Consumation in Rev. 19.


Paul also makes the link back to intra-Trinitarian relationships (i.e. that man and woman together are, somehow, the image of God). In a striking piece of exegesis he blows apart the idea of a completely symmetrical relationship between husband and wife.
1Cor. 11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
...
7 For a man should not have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason a woman should have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 In any case, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman. But all things come from God.

It is staggering for we see both mutual dependence and an order, an asymmetry. This is not an argument from culture, not even from Creation (although it draws upon it), but from deep within God Himself. In that same way that God (the Father) is the head of Christ, so a man is the head of his wife. There is equality yet also order.

Some claim that the word "head" here simply means "source". But that would be to suggest that Christ was created from out of the Father. But that is certainly not true - they are co-eternal. Rather, headship is what is intended. We may also see, then, that just as Christ has a head over Him so does the man and equally so the woman. It is certainly no shame to Christ that the Father has headship over Him, so then it should not be reckoned by the wife to be shameful either.

Some first conclusions - a devastating position for homosexual marriage


We have seen that the essence of marriage in scripture is that a man cleaves himself to a woman who is different to him and yet of the same flesh and bone. There is an intrinsic asymmetry that begins in biology but goes far deeper. This asymmetry is further reinforced by the tight metaphors and models which scripture gives us for marriage - the headship of the Father over the Son and the Husbandry of God in the person of Jesus over His church. In each schema the realtionship is one of love and submission with a priority given to the husband to love and care and lead the wife.

The application of homosexual marriage to this template does more than simply ignore the pattern set out in Creation and evidenced in our physiology and psychology. It insists that the Father and Son would mutually submit to one another - that the Father would submit to the Son. For Him to do so, of course, would mean that He would no longer be the Father for the very essence of that relationship is expressed by the Son's willing submission to all the Father asks of Him.
Not only does it, then, deny the very nature of God Himself - it also undermines the efficacy of Christ's work for us. If the relationship between Christ and Church is symmetrical (as the homosexual model must insist it is) then who saves who? Does Christ submit to the Church? Do they take it in turns to save the other? Does the Church wash Christ in the word? It is, of course, a ridiculous notion - the very asking of the question displays how far from a Biblical understanding of marriage we would have come.

This, then, is the positive model of marriage in scripture. We have not begun to look at the prohibitions - nor do we even really need to. The prohibitions are simply extensions of what we have already seen. We may, however, have begun to see how homosexual behaviour is such a destructive thing because it makes heterodox statements about the very nature of God and His work to save us.

I have yet, to this day, seen any liberal response to this sort of integrated theology. Nor have we ever been presented with anything like such a robust integrated theology of homosexual relations. Rather, we read of abstracted principles of "love" or "vulnerability" (so, for example, Rowan Williams in "The Body's Grace") stripped from their context of heterosexual marriage. It is only by ignoring the framework within which such principles are expounded that the liberal can even attempt to mount an argument. It is not for no reason, then, that they have moved from attempting such an argument to, rather, attempting to undermine our confidence in the text itself.

I trust this has been useful for you. I am thoroughly persuaded that this sort of thought is far more profitable than the incessant repetition of prohibitions. We have more than prohibitions to offer people - we have an understanding of our very nature and the God who created us. That is, surely, much more attractive to those we seek to win and, in the long run, far more edifying for us.
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Comments:

David - Thanks for this. It is good to see that Moore College training put to good use…

And now - in my first post here at StandFirm - I’m wandering off topic ever so slightly. Only slightly, mind you.

David - can you do a similar post about the Law of Moses? Let me phase it as a more detailed question. What is a biblical-theological response to the ‘shellfish arguement’ that sticks to the story of the Bible and DOESN"T RESORT to mediaeval categories like moral, civil and ceremonial in its dealings with the Law? I know that Jesus fulfilled the whole Law in himself, but what then for us?

Those sort of issues. Nothing major grin

Is there some paper/article on-line that deals with this issue in the way that I’ve outlined? I’d be grateful for any response.

[1] Posted by Derek Smith on 03-15-2007 at 01:23 AM • top

thanks for your kind words, Derek.

The Law??!!! You’re right - “nothing major”  rolleyes

There is a good piece by a chap from England called John Richardson. “What God has made clean”. Unfortunately Amazon don’t stock it but you can get it from The Good Book Company in the UK.

I’ll have a sniff round for other stuff. There’s always the epic by Gagnon, “the Bible and Homosexual Practice” - which is the masterpiece on the whole area. The liberals haven’t even attempted to refute his magnificent work.

[2] Posted by David Ould on 03-15-2007 at 02:52 AM • top

To be fair, Dale Martin does address Gagnon’s magnum opus but from a hermeneutical rather than exegetical stand point. As no conservative can ever accept anything approaching Dale Martin’s postmodern hermeneutic it probably should be seen as preaching to the liberal audience. For Gagnon’s typically withering response see his website.

[3] Posted by driver8 on 03-15-2007 at 12:34 PM • top

I really don’t want to divert attention from David’s wonderful article, but I wanted to respond to the shellfish question. This is something I posted on Anglican Mainstream sometime back.

+++

Revisionists often attempt to denigrate the Old Testament’s moral laws (particularly those touching upon homosexuality in Leviticus) by pointing out that we do not eat shellfish, wear garments of mixed fibres, execute Sabbath-breakers etc. If we have “abandoned” the latter laws, they ask, why do we hold onto the former laws as absolutes? While this line of reasoning may have a certain appeal at first glance, it only takes one more (glance) to see it for the nonsense it is. I’ll explain.

The Big Picture—God’s overarching purpose has always been to restore mankind to himself. It was all of humanity that fell in the Garden and it was to all of humanity that he promised a “seed of the woman” who would crush the head of the serpent (and have his heal crushed in return). God began to unfold this plan by calling out a man from Ur of the Chaldees—Abram. God made a covenant with Abram (or as he was later renamed, Abraham) promising to make him a nation and bless him so that he could be a blessing to all nations (again, all of humanity is in focus). Israel herself would be a light to the nations and would ultimately produce the Messiah (the seed of the woman) who would restore all of humanity—and indeed all of creation—to God.

This is significant in that Israel’s unique place in God’s grand scheme, while honourable, was temporary. At the right time God would draw all nations to himself through “ideal Israel” as found in her rightful King (Jesus), and create a new people not distinguished language or ethnicity. So how does this touch upon the Law?

The Law— God used the law to transform a rabble of ex-slaves into a holy nation that would reflect his glory to the nations. It acted as a kind of constitution for Israel, defining the rights and responsibilities that they shared in their covenant with God. It had to tell them what was right and wrong (moral), and it had to tell them what kind of nation they would be (national).

1. Moral— The moral components deal with what is right and wrong—it is right to love the Lord your God and your neighbours, to care for the needy, to shelter orphans etc. It is wrong to commit murder, to steal, to have sexual relations with animals, near relations, members of the same sex, and so on. These morals find their origin in the unchanging holiness of God, and are in themselves unchanging. It is worth noting that one finds them echoed in the New Testament as well as the Old. These laws remain absolutes—it is wrong to murder, steal, and commit adultery and so on whenever and wherever you live.

2. National— The national components cover everything from administrative, criminal, and civil laws to ritual laws. The first category (administrative, criminal and civil laws) describes how God wants Israel to function—and it is comprehensive. They are told where to put toilets in relation to the camp, how kings should reign, how to deal with refugees, how to punish crimes and resolve disputes and more. While we can learn lots from it (it reveals God’s heart and is full of wisdom), it remains their constitution and not ours.

The second category (ritual laws) operates on two different levels.
a) It deals with how one relates to God (issues of sin, atonement through the shedding of blood and the releasing of the scapegoat, remembrance of God’s acts in the Passover and other festivals, and so on). These served as “types” (pictures) foreshadowing what Christ would accomplish through his life, death and resurrection. They were fulfilled in him, and so they no longer apply.

b) It also explains how Israel as a nation is to keep itself holy, separate from its pagan neighbours; food laws, instructions on how to cut ones beard, what kind of clothes to wear are examples of this level. Again Israel’s place at centre stage was temporary. Now, through Christ, there is no longer any distinction between Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female— all peoples have been made clean through Christ’s acts. The laws of separation no longer apply.

I hope this helps— basically moral laws are to be distinguished from ritual and other laws. Having had seminary educations the revisionists shouldn’t have so much trouble with these categories, but maybe that’s not the real point for them.

[4] Posted by farstrider on 03-15-2007 at 04:08 PM • top

There’s also the fact that shellfish are scavengers.  Put them in a polluted river, close off the pollution source and watch them thrive.  Makes you think twice about that Shrimp Cocktail now doesn’t it?

[5] Posted by JackieB on 03-15-2007 at 04:13 PM • top

David,  I posted this on another Stand Firm thread some time ago.  But I think it reflects the points you have articulated in your post.

Our Creation is a reflection of and evidence for the Nature of God.  After the fall, of course parts of this change and we needed a Savior to bring us back to the completion found in Eden.  We have limited revealed understanding of the Nature of God.  But what we know, says a lot to who we are

God is person.  He thinks, He has will, He rejoices, He sorrows, He cares for others,  He is aware,  He relates to others, He has intellect.    God created us as persons.  He gave us souls, he gave us wills and intellects, he gave us emotions.  We could survive as a species without any of these.  We could have been created with only instinct, biological drives and less vulnerable anatomies.  But we were not.  Because with our creation God was revealing Himself to us.

God is creator.  This is not just a title for God.  It is the primary essence of Who God Is.  It is why God is a Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.  It is how God first related to the World.  God gives life,  He sustains life,  He affirms life and He has full sovereignty over it.  Our biology is given to us to reflect His ability to create.  It is given to us to show how out of our love and our will arises life.  It also reminds us that God is Father, that His care for us is the perfect expression of the care we have for our children.

God is spirit.  We know God ( except for the incarnation) does not have physical form.  Yet we also know that God is person.  Yet God is neither male nor female and Biblical passages reflect both male and female metaphors for God.  We know that God is complete.  There is nothing absent from or within Him.  So His creation must somehow reflect this.  Here we come to the Biblical statement.  “ Male and Female, created He them.  But why not just create us as one, why separate sexes?  Instead of a self perpetuating creature who has no need of any outside of itself to continue our existence as species?    I think because of the Trinity.  The mystery of the Trinity is one too deep for me to reflect on here.  However in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are perfectly united.  They retain their own personhood without becoming separate beings. That is where our creation as Male and Female and our union by sex comes in.

For that is what sex does in theology, as well as biology.  It unites what already is complete.  We know we have completion within ourselves.  Otherwise a life of celibacy or the inability to have children would be regarded as a failure of ourselves as persons.  And we know that is not true.  For neither condition is ever condemned by God.  But with sex we unite these two separate complete beings to give forth another.  To give life to create, to nurture, to guide and love..  This is what happens when male and female are joined together in sacred, monogamous, life long marriage.   

Our being created Male and Female and given separate biological reproductive systems which only
“ works” when brought together in sex is no mere evolutionary, biological means to insure survival of the species.  It is God’s revelation of Himself to the world.    Cause lets face it God could continue to create just out of His will.  For we know that between God’s will and action there is no separation.  Yet He gave to us the wonderful command to bring creation to this world.  To make life a reflection of love.    Our creation and our continued existence is an affirmation of life.    God is always life affirming.  Homosexual sex by its very nature is sterile and barren.  It can never reveal the Nature of God to us.  It can never be regarded as right in Christian theology.  For a church to embrace this sin or any other is a death knell to its mission to proclaim Christ and Him crucified.

I also posted this :
An affirmation of the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation are necessary to answer the issues that have caused a crisis in the church.  The rejections of these doctrines are at the heart of the heresies and change in moral standards with which we struggle.
Chief amongst these are the following:
...Advocation for same sex relations and life damaging behaviors.  The nature of man and woman and their union with one another begins in the story of Creation.  This story is and always will be a reflection of the Trinity.  As such this union is by its very nature
( barring illness or physical problems) both unitive and procreative.  Its very love gives forth the most amazing gift of all- life.    To defend why sex between one man and one woman in life long marriage is the only sexual expression blessed by God we have to be able to defend the Trintiy.

The incarnation tells us why we must reject all behaviors that corrupt the flesh not just sexual ones.  Addictions, abuse, violence to others and to ourselves just name a few.  It gives argument to the why of fighting diseases, poverty, hunger, injustice and evil in the world.  It gives voice to why we must love one another as God as loved us.

I truly believe and affirm that the right use of our sexuality is to be found in the doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnanation.

[6] Posted by Paula Loughlin on 03-16-2007 at 09:08 AM • top

This group, Institute for Progressive Christianity, has published an article at

“http://www.instituteforprogressivechristianity.org
/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=36”

that “examines the integration of gay marriage as a moral good into Christian theology.”

One part of its summary states

” The integration of gay marriage into the biblical allegory of marriage as a reflection of the Church’s relationship with Christ clarifies and enriches that allegory by assuring that it is an egalitarian relationship.  Assuring Christian marriage’s egalitarian nature, by taking seriously gay marriage’s inclusion in the concept of Christian marriage, increases the coherence of biblical interpretation by creating unity between the Scripture’s teaching of God’s desire and intention to raise the Church into a relationship of social equality and the Scripture’s metaphor of marriage as a model of our relationship with God.”

I think you would find it interesting and I would be interested in knowing what you think of it. Thank you in advance.
(I apologize for not being able to code the link. I did try.)

[7] Posted by JanDioMA on 03-17-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

I can’t pretend I find this piece convincing. With so much ground covered, it’s hard to know where to start, but I guess one might as well begin at the beginning, with the way David handles the creation stories.

I had written a very long comment. Too long. While I can’t say I share his perspective in all respects, I thought Roy Clements’ piece here captured my main concerns in detail. Specifically:

1. Where David sees the emphasis in Gen 1 on the deliberate creation of a distinction between male and female, I would read the words in an exactly contrary way, ie as “male and female” rather than “male and female”. The key point is that both male and female are created in God’s image, which tells us that what we see as important gender distinctions are not central. It’s a warning against attributing divine significance to gender distinctions, not an invitation to do so.

2. David misses, in my view, the thrust of the second creation story. God does not create Adam and Eve and then command them to marry. The starting point is the realization that it is not good for man to be alone. Eve is created (after an abortive search for a suitable companion among the rest of creation!) because she is the companion Adam needs, and Adam responds with an instinctive recognition of her appropriateness for him (which, one notes, is expressed in terms of a recognition of essential similarity, not difference). Of course it’s Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve (a gay first family would hardly have explained humanity!). But there is no reason to suppose that if Adam’s “perfect other” had been Steve, it wouldn’t have been Steve. In other words, in theological terms and in terms of what it says about Christian marriage, the key emphasis is on the significance of companionship, and on God’s recognition of that need, and the importance of finding a partner “matched” to each.

3. David blends the two creation accounts together when he suggests that Adam and Eve are created in God’s image and told to procreate. The two accounts are distinct. That does not mean that they do not each of them contain theological truths, but it is an inappropriate technique to combine them to create a synthetic narrative (combining the two accounts) and then extract truths from that. The stories are quite distinct, and have distinctly different (though not incompatible) implications.

[8] Posted by Paul Stanley on 03-18-2007 at 06:12 PM • top

thanks for the link Paul. Here’s what Clements (the man that left his wife and children for another man) says on this issue (from your link):

Nothing in this passage (Gen 2:24) suggests to me that God wishes to consign any human being to a life of enforced celibacy. As we have already observed, sex is not primarily given to us so we can produce children, but to foster a special relationship with another person: a relationship characterised by a unique kind of 1:1 intimacy that meets deep needs in our human psyche which no other kind of relationship can. If this passage says anything about same-sex relationships it is surely that God is just as concerned about lonely gay people as he is about lonely straight people, and just as anxious to see their loneliness suitably remedied. To suggest otherwise it to imply that, as far as all gay people are concerned, it is good that they should be “alone”.

Earlier, Clements has attempted to argue that this is God’s “plan for marriage” - but that’s not quite true. As Clements himself notes (contra to what Paul is arguing) there <u>is</u> a link between chapters 1 & 2. So, he opens with 2:18 - but immediately moves to chapter 1 to talk about the relationships within humanity.

Clements’ argument, then, rests upon the same straw-man that ++Williams uses in “The Body’s Grace” - that conservatives have put an inappropriate emphasis upon reproduction as a factor of sex. But no-one is seriously arguing that - sex is about reproduction (true) but it is about more than that, there is a union that it brings about that is critical for marriage. That union, from the start (as Jesus affirms in Matt 19) is between a man and a woman.

it is interesting, again, that no mention is made of the Biblical Theology that has been laid out - in particular the mirror between Christ & Church and Male & Female. The former informs the latter and the latter provides a model for the former. Thinking doctrinally they are recursive - they actually inform one another.

I trust that the sort of argumentation that Stanley supports and points to in Clements will not surprise readers here. As I noted above…

It is only by ignoring the framework within which such principles are expounded that the liberal can even attempt to mount an argument.

Here you see a classic example of this - a straw man of sexual reproduction coupled to an argument of “strengthening relationship”. And all this done in abstraction from the guiding paradigm of Christ and the Church.

[9] Posted by David Ould on 03-18-2007 at 06:57 PM • top

If there were to be no importance on the sex of the two parties, why would the Lord have even mentioned the different sexes.  Additionally, why point out the two sexes in Genesis or Matthew if they were not of import - just say when two people are joined.
David, thank you for that crystal clear response!

[10] Posted by JackieB on 03-18-2007 at 07:17 PM • top

David,

I leave aside your ad hominem criticism of Clements, since I do not know his personal history, and can’t see why it should matter to the validity of his argument. I also leave aside your criticism of his alleged failure to address the metaphorical comparisons between Christ/bridegroom and church/bride, since that is not a subject he could realistically have been expected to address in a comment on Genesis. (I’m not saying it’s irrelevant to the overall issue, just not to this particular piece of the puzzle.)

We part company on two points.

First, that it is “only by ignoring the framework within which such principles are expounded that the liberal can even attempt to mount an argument.” By “the framework”, I take it you are referring to what you see as the emphasis placed on the distinction between male and female in Gen 1, and the centrality you attribute to the creation of a man and a woman in Gen 2. My response is that it is your argument which ignores the framework, which is not one in which emphasis is placed on distinction but rather the reverse (Gen 1), and not one in which emphasis is placed on difference but rather and simply on suitability in the light of the powerful recognition that it is not good for man to be alone (Gen 2).

Secondly, and relatedly, we part company on your point that “union, from the start (as Jesus affirms in Matt 19) is between a man and a woman”. What I see as peripheral to the main point of the story (main point = “it is not good for man to be alone, so God made a companion for Adam”, peripheral = “that companion in Adam’s case was a woman”) you see as central (main point = “the proper companion for a man is a woman”, peripheral = “Adam was happy about this and no longer alone”). In other words, you see the story as a blueprint for what union should be in terms of the sexes, whereas I see it as an explanation of why union is permissible and holy.

Given that Matt 19 concerns a question about divorce in the context of heterosexual marriage, I can’t read much into it on the gay question, though it is of course important for our understanding of relationships in general. I would read Matt 19:4 as carrying the opposite significance to the one you give it. You read it as an exposition by Jesus of the basis of marriage PERIOD, and again as placing emphasis on the distinction between man and woman. I read it as laying emphasis again on the irrelevance of gender differences in the context of a question about (heterosexual) marriage: man and woman are both created by God, and on marriage become one flesh therefore it is not acceptable for men to treat wives as “disposable”. Women of course could not divorce their husbands. So by emphasizing that men and women were both created by and in the image of God, Jesus implicitly criticized a rule which treated women as subordinate to men. It is a strong statement that Christian relationships must be based on a recognition of the equal humanity of both partners, and characterized by stability and unselfishness. To read it as saying anything about the sex of the partners seems to me to be not so much against the point of the text as entirely beside it.

[11] Posted by Paul Stanley on 03-18-2007 at 07:57 PM • top

Jackie, The mention of both sexes is to underline sex is not important: because both man and woman are equally created in God’s image, neither is “superior”, or “more like God” than the other. That thought is carried through in Matt 19 where Jesus is pointing out that the Jewish law’s approach to divorce wrongly treats the woman as subordinate and less significant than the man.

(Once again, of course, we’re not going to agree. But I hope it helps you to see how these texts might be open to radically different interpretations.)

[12] Posted by Paul Stanley on 03-18-2007 at 08:06 PM • top

Gee, Paul.  My only remaining question is “how come in three millennia of studying Genesis and two of studying Matthew, nobody ever noticed this before homosexual activists started agitating in the churches?”

I find this exegesis an absolutely brilliant example of the W.C. Fields Hermeneutic (“I’m looking for loopholes…”).  If one ignores the universal presupposition throughout Scripture that sexual activity can be holy only between a male and a female, if one ignores the extremely high view of marriage pervasive in Scripture, if one ignores the fact that every mention of homosexual activity in Scripture is in a context indicating extreme disapproval, if one ignores the universal interpretation of Scripture in all Christian and Jewish traditions as absolutely prohibiting homosexual activity, and if one simply lies about our knowledge both of Greek and of Hellenic culture in the first century, then one can begin to make a tentative case for this exegesis.

Otherwise, of course, it’s simply tendentious nonsense.

[13] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 03-18-2007 at 08:26 PM • top

Paul wrote:

David,

I leave aside your ad hominem criticism of Clements, since I do not know his personal history, and can’t see why it should matter to the validity of his argument.

Ordinarily I would agree that general immorality is no matter to the validity of the argument. But Clements is a different case, since he is someone who failed to watch his life and doctrine closely. Clements was pastor of Eden Baptist Church, Cambridge. He abruptly left his wife and children for a younger man and refused to deal with that issue - instead insisting that he was a legitimate voice in the defence of homosexual behaviour. The Evangelical Alliance of the UK made a very wise decision at the time to refuse to engage with him on the homosexuality issue until he addressed the abandonment of his family. Since Clements has refused to do so he remains on the outside of the debate in the UK.

It is, therefore, pertinent to the debate. A man that abandons his family and is unrepentant about it has completely undermined his own authority and claim to objectivity in any discussion of marriage.

I also leave aside your criticism of his alleged failure to address the metaphorical comparisons between Christ/bridegroom and church/bride, since that is not a subject he could realistically have been expected to address in a comment on Genesis. (I’m not saying it’s irrelevant to the overall issue, just not to this particular piece of the puzzle.)

And that is entirely my point. I laid out a Biblical Theology of marriage - in other words “how the Bible interprets the Bible”. It is a, frankly, bizarre hermeneutic that will not allow the rest of scripture to have an exegetical oversight to the passage being discussed. So, for example, I consistently read that there is no clear evidence in the Genesis passage of the headship of a man over a woman. Whether that contention is true or not (and it is on it’s own merits doubtful) - to make such a claim is to ignore the entirety of what the rest of scripture says. So, in that example, we have anauthoritative word on ordering in 1Cor.11 (which I outlined in my original passage).

8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

There we see Paul going directly to the <u>order</u> of Creation and making a statement about headship from it. To not allow this to be part of the debate on what Gen 1&2 means is to both ignore the argument being made in the original piece and (worse) to ignore what scripture has to say. Again, I note that the method being used here is to abstract a statement from it’s scriptural context.

Paul continues:

We part company on two points.

First, that it is “only by ignoring the framework within which such principles are expounded that the liberal can even attempt to mount an argument.” By “the framework”, I take it you are referring to what you see as the emphasis placed on the distinction between male and female in Gen 1, and the centrality you attribute to the creation of a man and a woman in Gen 2. My response is that it is your argument which ignores the framework, which is not one in which emphasis is placed on distinction but rather the reverse (Gen 1), and not one in which emphasis is placed on difference but rather and simply on suitability in the light of the powerful recognition that it is not good for man to be alone (Gen 2). 

No, at the most charitable I would observe that you have not paid enough attention to the argument being made. It was the Biblical Theology that provides the more robust context in which to understand these statements. But even in the original context the argument is tight. A man (i.e. a male) is alone and a companion is needed for him. God creates a woman from him and for him. The obvious basic unit is thus a man and a woman - not simply a person and a person. Else, what would God have done? He would have created another Adam. Even this most basic argument from the text and it’s natural flow is cast aside by the liberal with no real argument other than “it doesn’t have to be this way”. The right question is asked : “is this about intimacy and companionship?” but because the answer provided is too specific the liberal must explain away the details. This is done by abstraction.

Secondly, and relatedly, we part company on your point that “union, from the start (as Jesus affirms in Matt 19) is between a man and a woman”. What I see as peripheral to the main point of the story (main point = “it is not good for man to be alone, so God made a companion for Adam”, peripheral = “that companion in Adam’s case was a woman”) you see as central (main point = “the proper companion for a man is a woman”, peripheral = “Adam was happy about this and no longer alone”). In other words, you see the story as a blueprint for what union should be in terms of the sexes, whereas I see it as an explanation of why union is permissible and holy. 

No, once again you draw a conclusion from my work which I do not draw. There is no central/peripheral disagreement. There is only one argument being made: Adam is alone and it is not good - the solution for the problem is a woman. There is no distinction made in the text between a supposed general problem of aloneness and a more specific (and therefore not universal) solution of providing a woman. That is an imposition upon the text.

Given that Matt 19 concerns a question about divorce in the context of heterosexual marriage, I can’t read much into it on the gay question, though it is of course important for our understanding of relationships in general. I would read Matt 19:4 as carrying the opposite significance to the one you give it. You read it as an exposition by Jesus of the basis of marriage PERIOD, and again as placing emphasis on the distinction between man and woman. I read it as laying emphasis again on the irrelevance of gender differences in the context of a question about (heterosexual) marriage: man and woman are both created by God, and on marriage become one flesh therefore it is not acceptable for men to treat wives as “disposable”. Women of course could not divorce their husbands. So by emphasizing that men and women were both created by and in the image of God, Jesus implicitly criticized a rule which treated women as subordinate to men. It is a strong statement that Christian relationships must be based on a recognition of the equal humanity of both partners, and characterized by stability and unselfishness. To read it as saying anything about the sex of the partners seems to me to be not so much against the point of the text as entirely beside it.

Again, you misunderstand me. I never said that the whole point of Jesus in Matt. 19/Mark 10 is about asserting the heterosexual nature of marriage. What Jesus is dealing with is the abuse of divorce laws by the Pharisees and there is also an implicit attempt to get him in trouble with Herod Antipas (both Matt. and Mark make note that Jesus has crossed the Jordan, i.e. into Herod’s territory. As both gospel writers make clear, Herod was involved in the messy divorce of his brother Philip and Herodias. The question thus is a trap for Jesus in the same manner as “who do you pay taxes to?”)
However, Jesus answer (as I argued before) affirms the Genesis 2 model whatever that model may be. It shows that it is God’s universal intention for humanity. We learn from the beginning that God created man “male and female” and that this is understood in the context of marriage - the argument that has been made all along.

I’m not sure why you pursue this so vigorously, Paul. I am always astounded at how certain segments of the community press away at deeply weak exegetical arguments for the sake of the homosexual cause. The arguments are, as we have noted, always abstracted from context. Any attempt to provide an alternate universal framework has to ignore the many details in the texts and explain them away as “peripheral”.

Can I urge you to place yourself <u>under</u> the text and simply allow it to speak rather than trying to force into it meanings that it simply does not hold. That path is extremely dangerous - the outworkings of which are seen in the contemporary denials of Jesus’ divinity, sinlessness and uniqueness all of which stem from the same looseness to the text and unwillingness to simply submit to it’s message.

[14] Posted by David Ould on 03-18-2007 at 08:34 PM • top

The mention of both sexes is to underline sex is not
important: because both man and woman are equally created in God’s image, neither is “superior”, or “more like God” than the other. That thought is carried through in Matt 19 where Jesus is pointing out that the Jewish law’s approach to divorce wrongly treats the woman as subordinate and less significant than the man.

But this is a straw man. No-one has ever argued here that the difference implies the two factors that you outline.

[15] Posted by David Ould on 03-18-2007 at 08:35 PM • top

David (and others) - thanks for the helpful material. I saw a brief outline of John Richardson’s arguement on the Reform (UK) website, and so I’ll order a copy of that booklet. It is just what I am looking for.

[16] Posted by Derek Smith on 03-18-2007 at 11:16 PM • top

David,

Well, I suppose I asked for it! And, in truth, I no more supposed that you would find my arguments persuasive than you would expect me to find yours persuasive.

You accuse me of “abstraction”. But we both abstract, do we not? Isn’t that the whole point. We have here a story of the creation of one man and one woman. Both of us, considering that story, ask ourselves: What if anything does this story tell us about God’s plan for mankind, and particularly God’s plan for intimate relationships? That requires “abstraction”. It cannot be avoided. We are both seeking to generalise from a particular concrete instance to identify some general principle.

So the distinction between us is not that I abstract and you do not; the distinction is how we abstract. There are two differences in particular.

The first difference is in the choice of the “axis” of abstraction. You choose as your axis of abstraction (or one of the principal axes of abstraction) the sex of the protagonists, and in particular their difference of sex. I do not. In that, as I understand it, I take my cue from the text itself, and in particular from the structure of the story in Gen 2 and the account of the creation of both sexes in God’s own image in Gen 1, which I understand to invite us to treat sex differences between people as irrelevant. The end result is actually, I think, that I abstract less from the text than you do: my reading gives it a narrower “focus” than yours, for I find in the text only something that is explicitly there (“It is not good for man to be alone.”) where you find something that is not explicitly there (“It is only good for man to be together with woman”).

You see, your interpretation confronts me with a bizarre contradiction, for from the text “It is not good for man to be alone” you seek to draw me to a conclusion “It is good and necessary for you to be alone”. For me, that is an abstraction in the most literal terms, for it takes out of the text that which is most obviously explicit in it. It’s painfully a reading against the text.

The second difference is that you are willing to abstract from a statement that God intended X to a statement that God regards any departure or variation upon X as wrong, that is to extract implicit negative statements from an explicit positive one. You do this by implying an “only”: God intends X and therefore he intends only X. This may be obscure, but an example may help clarify things.

We know from the text that Adam and Eve are created naked. Clothes come in only after the fall. We do not understand that to imply, however, that clothes are “not part of God’s plan for us” and thereby to produce a biblical theology of naturism. Things are much more complicated than that.

In the same way, I am not sure why we should treat a story that the first couple are created straight as indicative that it is God’s purpose that all couples should be straight. Adam and Eve are straight, and naked. We have to ask whether their straightness, any more than their nakedness, is a salient important characteristic. We have in other words to be quite careful about reasoning from a statement God created X to the conclusion and intended to permit only X. Most of the time we don’t sweat this one, but we ought to be alive to the choices we are making. “If God had intended us to fly he would have made airplanes as well as birds, or given us wings”. A bad argument. But the “Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve” argument is really a variation of it. That doesn’t necessarily make it bad, but it makes it less-than-self-evident.

Well, we both know we won’t agree. We will both continue to believe that the other is blind to the “simple” meaning of the text, and blinded because of a prejudiced inability not to read the text in a way that enshrines or own particular pre-textual predilections. Probably our respective arguments seem so weakly wrongheaded to each other that we only strengthen our respective views. For that, I suppose, we should thank each other.

[17] Posted by Paul Stanley on 03-19-2007 at 06:40 AM • top

What about the issue of contraception…all Christian denominations rejected it until 1930, when the Lambeth Conference reversed earlier condemnation ( 1908 and 1920).

The reason homosexual practice is gravely sinful…is that it is not open to the transmission of life.

The unitive and the procreative cannot be separated, just as in eating ,taste and eating can not be.

Where contraception culture is accepted the population is in free fall. It then opoens the door to homosexuality and abortion.

Look at Spain and Italy as a recent example…now have the lowest birthrates on earth!

Note how Mr Ould carefully steers away from a definition of marriage as whether it is an unbreakable covenant, or can be rendered asunder.

The Church of England canons from 1604 to 2002 affirmed it was unbreakable. TEC altered this as early as 1868!

David Ould is actually a liberal revisionist, albeit a sincere one, and not realising it. I publicly challenge him , as a Christian brother in love to investigate these areas and look at the Catholic Answers radio web site.

[18] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-20-2007 at 12:51 AM • top

sigh…

What about the issue of contraception…all Christian denominations rejected it until 1930, when the Lambeth Conference reversed earlier condemnation ( 1908 and 1920).

what about it, Robert?

The reason homosexual practice is gravely sinful…is that it is not open to the transmission of life.

Although I agree that the issues are tangentially linked I think you’ll find that scripture never draws the conclusion that you draw here.

The unitive and the procreative cannot be separated, just as in eating ,taste and eating can not be.

Where contraception culture is accepted the population is in free fall. It then opens the door to homosexuality and abortion.

Look at Spain and Italy as a recent example…now have the lowest birthrates on earth!

Well, yes. This is an argument that JP2 made in evangelium vitae and I think it has much merit. But I’m really not sure why you are so sure I’m denying it.

Note how Mr Ould carefully steers away from a definition of marriage as whether it is an unbreakable covenant, or can be rendered asunder.

The Church of England canons from 1604 to 2002 affirmed it was unbreakable. TEC altered this as early as 1868!

I’m beginning to think that like Mr Stanley you’re not actually reading what I write. True, I never used the word covenant but I did
<ol>
<li>Cite Jesus in Matt 19/Mark 10. There he says clearly “what God has joined together let man not divide”.
<li>Point out the mirror of marriage in the way that Christ relates to the church. That is (and I presented it as) so obviously a unilateral “covenantal” relationship that it staggers me you would think I was saying the opposite.

David Ould is actually a liberal revisionist, albeit a sincere one, and not realising it.

LOL well, Matt will be glad to hear he’s not the only one.

I publicly challenge him , as a Christian brother in love to investigate these areas and look at the Catholic Answers radio web site.

well, yes, if
<ol>
<li>I ever work out which bits of my post actually denied what you are claiming, and
<li>I have the time
</ol>

[19] Posted by David Ould on 03-20-2007 at 05:16 AM • top

David, my fellow traveller. Nice of you to join the crypto-liberal revisionist side of things. Of course we’ve got to be careful not to blow our neo-puritain, fundamentalist, uber-Christian cover. So keep it under wraps.

[20] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 03-20-2007 at 05:25 AM • top

Matt and David,

Wow, if there is a revisionist version of gaydar then mine is on the fritz, really you are the two people I least expected to turn out to be closet revisionists.  But now you’ve both been outed for the sloppy-minded liberals you really are, well, we ought to celebrate. Copies of the complete works of Bishop Spong, bound in rainbow calf, are on their way to both of you! grin

[21] Posted by Paul Stanley on 03-20-2007 at 05:34 AM • top

At last, the true identities of both Matt and David Ould have been revealed—LIBERAL REVISIONISTS!!!!

They are taking over our blog. 

Despite the earlier accusation ON THIS BLOG that I was really an Integrity activist—never forgotten, I might add, by yours truly—I am the REAL CONSERVATIVE here.

No doubt the accuser of David is referring to the fact that the Roman Catholic church believes that all sexual acts must be able to lead to procreation—that is, that one cannot separate sexual relations between a married man and woman from the possibility of procreation.

As the only TRUE CONSERVATIVE STANDFIRM BLOGGER here, I personally believe that, since one should not have sexual relations unless there is the possibility of procreation, that sexual relations should not occur between a husband and wife on the following occasions:

1) During pregnancy
2) After the woman has experienced menopause
3) During any time that the woman is infertile, which I believe could apply to at least 1/3 of every year.

There are other times, but I think that this is A Good Start.

I also denounce Natural Family Planning, which is clearly an Unnatural And Scientific Method of Observing Precise Times of Fertility and Avoiding Them. 

Prior to the 1930s, when we didn’t have all the newfangled contraptions of observing basal body temperature, the Billings ovulation method and the Creighton Model, we had the good old statistical method, and although in the old days, I would have said that if it was good enough for Peter and Paul, it should be good enough for us, with my new-found Conservative ReBirth, I say that even the statistical method—though somewhat uncertain—is designed to avoid periods of possibility of procreation when having sexual relations and thus even that is a Liberal Revisionist method of avoiding procreation.

No, the only good use of Natural Family Planning is to discover the periods of the most fertility, then proceed to having sexual relations only during those times so as to assure all possible procreation.

Since I am a single heterosexual, and thus required to abstain from sexual relationships anyway, these True Conservative Ideas don’t have that much effect on me anyway.  But I will be writing an Important Book about them, very soon, and I hope that they will point out just how Very Liberal And Revisionist some of our bloggers are.

My personal opinion is that only Real Conservatives should be allowed to be StandFirm bloggers, and I am indubitably one of them.  Anyone who practices any form of “birth control” whether artificial like chemical contraceptives or artificial like “Natural [hah!] Family Planning” should not be allowed to post here.  I fear that the married bloggers here—all of them—are not Real Conservatives at all.

So far, we have outed two of them, and I suspect that Jackie and Greg are not far behind.

[22] Posted by Sarah on 03-20-2007 at 07:48 AM • top

I think Sarah is angling for yet another post of ‘acronymous’ leadership; that of Stand Firm’s Supreme Single Head Of True Effective Conservatism better known as SSSSHOTEC.

wink

[23] Posted by Bill C on 03-20-2007 at 08:01 AM • top

“Stand Firm’s Supreme Single Head Of True Effective”

Oh sure,  pick on Sarah marital status, not very nice. What’s next, more loving comments about the elven species?  tongue wink

(Also single, so playfully feeling like I can heckle wink )
——-
Serious note:

Well David, I think I made a call for such an article when SF was embroiled in another discussion on homosexuality, Nigeria and the like. We need to remember the proper gift the Lord has given, so thank you for this piece.

[24] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 03-20-2007 at 09:29 AM • top

3) During any time that the woman is infertile, which I believe could apply to at least 1/3 of every year.

Quiz - Which Phase(s) is this? 

A.) Phases 1 and 3, but not 2.
B.) Phase 10 from Navarone
C.) The headache phase

[25] Posted by Paul B on 03-20-2007 at 10:01 AM • top

Dear David,

Thanks for your response, but you can never be sure of Evangelicals. Some believe marriage is unbreakable and some believe in divorce and re-marriage. That is why all their attacks on homosexual liberals never define what they actually believe about marriage and divorce. That would be to divide their constituency and expose the fact thast people claiming the sole sufficiency of scripture come to differing interpretations on a salvation issue i.e ..adulterers will not enter Heaven.

As I point out Sydney Diocese and TEC all departed from the traditional Anglican view years ago.

May I reccomend a book by Evangelical Charles Provan, The Bible and Contraception, in which he shows the unequivocal opposition to contraception within Protestantism before 1930.You can buy it from Catholic Answers.

I am sorry but you are a liberal….albeit that you don’t not realise it.

The Bible forbids a Bishop to have more than one wife..so why are you not so much hot under the collar about the TEC bishops who are serial adulteerres , re-married divorcees?

I hear our Lord saying beams and motes.

[26] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-20-2007 at 10:55 AM • top

Dear RIW, I actually happen to agree with you on a few things re a contraception culture being in free-fall.  A few years ago, I read Pope Paul’s encyclical Human Vitae in which he described what would happen to a society over a period of time in which artifical contraception would be readily available.  In 1967, I thought the man was an idiot, 30 years later I thought he was a prophet.  I would recommend it as reading to anyone.  Over the course of the last few years, I think that the most authentic Christian witness for a married couple to have is to allow the Lord to determine the timing and size of a family, using the means available for “natural family planning”.  But that is my opinion and I would not consider it as doctrine.  I am not a Roman Catholic and some might feel my opinion is somewhat disengenuous since I fall under category 2 above and I am not going to stop, I guess that means I’m a revisionist and don’t know it.

Thanks for the article, David.  It was very well done.

[27] Posted by Gayle on 03-20-2007 at 11:59 AM • top

Bill C wrote:

I think Sarah is angling for yet another post of ‘acronymous’ leadership . . . .

wink

Which raises an interesting hypothetical question.  If Sarah took to trolling, would that make her one of the ‘Olog Hey’ ?

[28] Posted by Africanised Anglican on 03-20-2007 at 01:06 PM • top

red face
Oops, I forgot to add, that thinking David Ould is a revisionist is just plain silly.

[29] Posted by Gayle on 03-20-2007 at 03:00 PM • top

RE: ” . . . so why are you not so much hot under the collar about the TEC bishops who are serial adulteerres , re-married divorcees?”

I would hope that David would be equally concerned, as were the traditionalists at GC2006, who wrote a minority report, gave speeches against, wrote an extensive AAC article for its report, and numerous other actions concerning Bishop Beisner.

But again . . . one has to start somewhere, and better late than never . . . and we at SF have started somewhere.

[30] Posted by Sarah on 03-20-2007 at 03:37 PM • top

Homosexuality is sterile, and so is contraception.

It is incredible how Evangelicals claim that God is in charge of their finances, but when it comes to their body and their fertility, no way.
Children are a blessing from the Lord….not an optional extra, to be avoided for selfish and economic reasons. In Scripture an abundence of chldren is always viewed as a blessing.

It is also incredible how Evangelicals , who would instruct homosexuals in the way of salvation cannot even agree as to what constitutes the sin of adultery.

Note they talk about life long heterosexual marriage, but steer away from the divorce issue , so as not to divide their constituency and show the homosexual that they cannot agree as to the interpretation of the ” clear” word of God.

If this is not a double -standard ...what is?

[31] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-20-2007 at 03:51 PM • top

Robert Ian Williams,

You are wrong. 

There has been no “steering away” from the divorce issue.  We [traditionalists] have spoken loud and long about the divorce issue at this blog, at the ACN, at the AAC, through parishes, dioceses, individuals, articles, and on and on and on.

And surprise surprise—our speaking about it consistently and copiously has not “divided our constituency”—far from it.  Many have come to realize how important the issues of divorce and marriage and sexuality as a whole are, all thanks to the initial “bomb” of the 2003 GC.

God works in mysterious ways . . . and He has used the tip of the iceberg to get people to look far deeper at the iceberg below the surface of the waters and at the foundational issues that confront Anglicanism.

I am sure that you are happy to learn of this fantastic news.

[32] Posted by Sarah on 03-20-2007 at 04:02 PM • top

I SAID EVANGELICALS NOT TRADITIONALISTS. Anglo Catholics in the main upheld the marriage discipline, but evangelicals were and are less unanimous. For instance “orthodox “Lord Carey has blessed all his own children’s re-marriages. He told Prince Charles to marry his Mistress , not put her aside.

The truth is that there is as much divorce and re-marriage amongst the so called orthodox as the liberals.

The Evangelical Covenant for the Church of England recently released steers carefully away from it.

So does Reform, the Church of England conservative evangelical group.

All the liberals need to do is insist that there is a definition of marriage which covers divorce in the Anglican Communion Covenant and it would divide the whole communion, and the “orthodox”.

Please tell us whether Christian marrriage is an indissolubale union instituted by Christ, or is divorce and re-marriage easier to obtain than within Judaism.

I can go to John Stott, Lord Carey and they will tell me that re-marriage after divorce is ok… and yet other evangelicals tell me it is adultery!

It was that subjective variation that led me away fom Evangelicalism. It cannot possibly come rom God.

[33] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-20-2007 at 05:05 PM • top

PS

I do hope you realise that I am only trying to make persons think and I admire your sincereity and obvious love for our Blessed Lord.

Robert

[34] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-20-2007 at 05:10 PM • top

RE: “I SAID EVANGELICALS NOT TRADITIONALISTS.”

And I said “traditionalists”—it is a much broader word than evangelicals, and evangelical, Anglo-Catholic, and charismatic Anglicans have spoken out about divorce.

RE: “I do hope you realise that I am only trying to make persons think . . . “

All that you are making me do, Robert Ian Williams, is recognize yet again that I am not a Roman Catholic.  Nor do I have any interest in your thinking me “orthodox” by your definition, as your definition is, of course [and understandably] Roman Catholic.

[35] Posted by Sarah on 03-20-2007 at 05:25 PM • top

Robert. I do hope you will stop and think before you post your next tirade against us “liberals”. At the moment you present as someone with an axe to grind but with not even the slightest amount of charity indicated by a willingness to understand those that you perceive as opposing you.

Now, to your post:

Homosexuality is sterile, and so is contraception.

It is incredible how Evangelicals claim that God is in charge of their finances, but when it comes to their body and their fertility, no way.
Children are a blessing from the Lord….not an optional extra, to be avoided for selfish and economic reasons. In Scripture an abundence of chldren is always viewed as a blessing.

Frankly, you should be ashamed of this sort of attack. You have <u>absolutely no idea</u> of what my position is. Now, granted, there are some evangelicals who take a more open position on contraception but, note very carefully, they are not the entirety of evangelicalism nor do they represent me. The very basics of debate demand that you first understand theposition of the one that you oppose before you seek to refute them. So tell us all: what is David Ould’s considered position on contraception? Do tell us all because you seem to be clear what it is (as you should be because I do have a considered opinion on the matter).

It is also incredible how Evangelicals , who would instruct homosexuals in the way of salvation cannot even agree as to what constitutes the sin of adultery.

Note they talk about life long heterosexual marriage, but steer away from the divorce issue , so as not to divide their constituency and show the homosexual that they cannot agree as to the interpretation of the “ clear” word of God. 

Ok, All you need to do here is demonstrate your case - let’s see some citation of widely varying opinions on this. And then demonstrate how that would undermine the position that we are putting up here.

Robert - time to just slow down, apologise for your ungracious manner here, and then join us as we discuss how to defend biblical truth against apostasy.

[36] Posted by David Ould on 03-20-2007 at 05:46 PM • top

I do hope you realise that I am only trying to make persons think and I admire your sincereity and obvious love for our Blessed Lord.

you have a most bizarre way of demonstrating your admiration.

[37] Posted by David Ould on 03-20-2007 at 05:48 PM • top

David is a Liberal revisionist?

I am shocked. Truly shocked.

Yours,

‘Disgusted of Tonbridge Wells’ (actually Singapore and sometimes York)

[38] Posted by Derek Smith on 03-20-2007 at 09:10 PM • top

Derek,

‘Disgusted of Tonbridge Wells’ (actually Singapore and sometimes York)

Where in Singapore are you? My wife is from there and we lived off the Farrer Rd for a few years.

[39] Posted by David Ould on 03-20-2007 at 10:39 PM • top

Dear David,

I have before me “Church and State in the New Millennium” by David Holloway founder of Reform ( Conservative Evangelical group in England)...he make as an eloquent defence of the indissolubility of marriage. He cites Biblical precedent.

I than have a Copy of “the Hundred top Questions, by Richard bewes , founder of Anglican Mainstream, former Rector of All Souls Langham Place…he gives a Biblical endorsement to re-marriage after divorce.

pro divorce…Stott, Packer, Carey
anti divorce, Phillips ( Church Society), Holloway, ( reform)

The list could go on…it totally divides the evangelical constituency.
When your Archbishop, Doctor Jensen visited England I publicly challenged him on this.

He affirmed that he could not countenance the indissolubility of marriage , but he conceded that Sydney Diocese had been lax in in allowing too many re-marrraiges.

I am not grinding an axe. I am stating the truth in love. Evangelicals have no coherent theology of Marriage,as they cannot agree to define what constitutes adultery.

Playlet

Gay ... So you believe the Bible is the sure Word of God, our only authority and perfectly clear o moral issues

Evangelical .We sure do.

Gay ..You are re-married after divorce.

Evangelical.. Sure thats Biblical.Our lord allowed it in the case of adultery

Evangelical Two : No its not. Thats a misinterpreation of the exceoption clause.The Cof E forbade it until 2002

Gay.. who am I to believe? Go away and take the log out of your own eye first.

David I hope you can see the flaw…. God Bless

Rob

[40] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-21-2007 at 01:06 AM • top

David

Where in Singapore are you? My wife is from there and we lived off the Farrer Rd for a few years.

Well how about that.

Jurong East (Chinese Garden). I attend a small Vineyard church here, but was part of St Michael-le-Belfrey in York.

[41] Posted by Derek Smith on 03-21-2007 at 01:50 AM • top

Well how about that.

Jurong East (Chinese Garden). I attend a small Vineyard church here, but was part of St Michael-le-Belfrey in York.

Nice. I’ll be back in April. Preaching at my Brother in Law’s wedding and also at all 3 services at St. George’s (where I used to work) on the 15th. Do feel free to come along to the latter if your place can spare you and you can bear to hear from a closet liberal revisionist.

[42] Posted by David Ould on 03-21-2007 at 02:53 AM • top

Do feel free to come along to the latter if your place can spare you and you can bear to hear from a closet liberal revisionist.

I’m sure I’ll be able to stomach it. See you there!

[43] Posted by Derek Smith on 03-21-2007 at 03:43 AM • top

I’m itching to reply, but I am afraid that I will be banned from your interesting website. Can i send any material to you , care of the website.

Your in New South Wales aren’t you

I’m in Old North Wales.

[44] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-21-2007 at 12:32 PM • top

I’m itching to reply, but I am afraid that I will be banned from your interesting website. Can i send any material to you , care of the website.

Let me be abundantly clear. If it’s something that would get you banned from here then I don’t want to see it either on StandFirm or in my inbox.

That you would consider sending me something that would get you banned here speaks volumes.

[45] Posted by David Ould on 03-21-2007 at 09:10 PM • top

You misunderstand , I want to send you the Book , The Bible and Birth control by Charles Provan…. I feel sure it will make you re-think your carefully formulated theology of marriage.

I would never descend to the crudity and uncharitable comments that so oftern pepper this web site.

I thought you might ban me…as I am a ” papist” on an Anglican web site. The truth pricks consciences.

[46] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-22-2007 at 12:18 AM • top

Robert

This ‘Baptist’ agrees with you that only death dissolves the marriage bond, but I do have a question for you.

Doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church grant ‘annulments’ to couples who have been legally married for many years (including after children are born)? I realise that each case may be judged on its own merits, but isn’t that just another method of ‘divorce’ without actually using the word?

[47] Posted by Derek Smith on 03-22-2007 at 02:48 AM • top

I thought you might ban me…as I am a “ papist” on an Anglican web site. The truth pricks consciences.

you don’t get banned for pursuing what the Prayer Book calls “Romish Popery”. You get banned for being rude and unpleasant.

FWIW, you’ve still not established in any way why I need to read your book. Unless you actually start engaging with what people say, not your pre-conceived idea of what they belive, you will just come across more and more rude and unpleasant.

[48] Posted by David Ould on 03-22-2007 at 03:40 AM • top

Dear Dereck,

All the Baptists I know are staunch believers in divorce and re-marriage.

Dear Dave,

An anullment is not the same as a divorce, but sadly in the uS it has been abused as such.

I want you to read the book, because it will show you that contraception is not just a Catholic issue and was the main stream Protestant belief until 1930.

I feel it is highly relevant to the whole gay issue. Robert Runcie in his biography says that whne this teaching was changed you can not deny ordination to gay persons.

When yous ee that the Church of Rome is the only Church that has kept the teaching , it may be your first step on the road to conversion!

Best wishes

Rob

[49] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-22-2007 at 11:15 AM • top

RE: “I thought you might ban me…as I am a “ papist” on an Anglican web site. The truth pricks consciences.”

LOL! Actually, the babbling of a man who wants people who are not Roman Catholic to believe Roman Catholic doctrine causes smiles.  ; > )

RE: “When yous ee that the Church of Rome is the only Church that has kept the teaching , it may be your first step on the road to conversion!”

The Roman Catholic has “kept the teaching”—the teaching of the Roman Catholic church, which Protestants do not believe in numerous instances.  It is not the “true church”, and in a number of instances its theology is wrong.

None of this is particularly new or horrifying—people who believe what I just said are called “Protestants”.  “Protestants” do not believe any number of doctrines that the Roman Catholic church adheres to—they believe those doctrines to be false.

But . . . interestingly enough, the topic of the Roman Catholic church—from which and in which are many dear Christians who comment at this blog and whom I count as allies—is not the topic of the post.

And that, Robert Ian Williams, will get you banned; not being a paplist, as you would so enjoy imagining, but off-topic posts, and cries for people here to convert to another denomination or religion.

If you would like a reminder of the comment policy which spells out exactly what will get you banned—off-topic comments and conversion trails—you may find it here:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/1825/

Interestingly enough, this is your first off-topic and conversion comment on this thread.  I suspect that you’ve longed to say what you did, from the get-go . . . but you actually know what will get you banned, having watched two of your fellow Roman Catholic compadres get banned a month ago for precisely the same thing.  Now you have decided it’s safe enough to test the waters and see if anyone notices or calls you on it.

In answer to your test, it is not safe to violate the comment policy, clearly spelled out and extensively and repeatedly called to commenter attention.

This is your only warning.

[50] Posted by Sarah on 03-22-2007 at 11:59 AM • top

The irony of these ‘drive-by’ calls for RC conversion, is that they hinder movement towards higher standards of sexuality.  David wrote an excellent post, and now we’re talking about something completely different - converting to RCism, rather than the things that RCism stands for.  Apparently, being RC is more important than supporting any of her agendas. 

I respectfully suggest that some (some, not all) of our RC guests need to think redemptively about efforts like Peter’s.  It might not conform to your higher standards, but it’s well on its way.

[51] Posted by Moot on 03-22-2007 at 12:30 PM • top

Dear Sarah, will respect your wishes.Thanks for the information, and your gracious response.Mea Culpa…but nevertheless the issue of contraception is relevant to a theology of marriage and its defence against the gay agenda. It was a belief held by all Christian people until 1930.

[52] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-22-2007 at 05:04 PM • top

I want you to read the book, because it will show you that contraception is not just a Catholic issue and was the main stream Protestant belief until 1930.

Robert. Let me explain to you why this is a particular rude and foolish thing to write. My piece has made absolutely <u>no</u> mention of contraception. Nor (as I have already pointed out) have I ever published my thoughts on the subject, although I do have a developed theology on it.

So why do you keep banging on about the subject and, in particular, my apparent heterodox stance on it when <u>you have absolutely NO CLUE WHATSOEVER what I believe on the subject</u>?

Here’s my advice. Stop it now. Be slightly more mature in your discussion and actually address what your (supposed) opponents are saying rather than what you want them to be saying.

[53] Posted by David Ould on 03-22-2007 at 05:48 PM • top

Dear David,

Whether I am imature or not is not the question. I quite legitimately asked why is the issue of procreation, contraception , or the inabiltiy of sola scriptura Christians to have a consensus as to whether Our Blessed Lord allows for re-marriage after divorce excluded from a suposedly biblical piece on Marriage?

It is absolutely intrinsic , considering you are positing a theology of marriage against a backdrop of a denomination which has caved in on both issues….divorce and homosexuality.

The liberals will make mince meat of you.

If you can’t answer the question….just ignore my comment. Please do not resort to the personal, which I suppose I shamefully began by calling you a liberal revisonist. I apologise.

[54] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-25-2007 at 02:26 AM • top

Robert,  I see contraception and divorce as chapters in the book on marriage theology, just as David’s piece is a chapter in that book.  His piece stands on it’s own for what it attempts to do.

One needs an integrated theology, but doesn’t have to explain it all at once.

[55] Posted by Paul B on 03-25-2007 at 08:10 AM • top

I see your point Peter…..and I am gracefully withdrawing. However both divorce and the issue of the prime purpose of marriage are intrinsic to the whole issue, if one wants to have a truly Biblical and Apostolic view of Holy Matrimony.

Indeed in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer that prime purpose is proclaimed as intrinsic to Holy Matrimony.

It is very telling abd sad that the issue of procreation is now seen as primarily a Catholic internal issue, when in effect until 1930 it was standard Christian teaching. Maybe I could send you a copy of the book, “The Bible and Birth control” by evangelical protestant , Charles Provan ( no lover of Catholicism)...who thoroughly documents that universal opposition.

Lets close with the words of Our Blessed Lord, ” If you love me ,you will keep my commandments.”

[56] Posted by robert ian williams on 03-25-2007 at 01:15 PM • top

Robert, I’ll see you, call you and raise you.  Does believing that divorce, adultary, abortion, and limiting fertility is wrong make me a RCC?  I am glad the pope agrees with my Church.  Also, we don’t believe in selling annulments, covering for pedafile priest, and sticking to strict spelling rules is kosher. You raise good questions but they are another battle and I say one battle at a time.  I applaude David for giving a clear statement on one aspect of the problems facing all churches including the members of the American RCC.

[57] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 03-26-2007 at 04:18 PM • top

Dear Paul Stanley,
Concerning your comments in your post on 03-18-2007 at 07:57 PM

You wrote “Given that Matt 19 concerns a question about divorce in the context of heterosexual marriage, I can’t read much into it on the gay question, though it is of course important for our understanding of relationships in general.”
Immediately I am struggling with the subjectivity of that on two counts.
Firstly you discuss ‘heterosexual marriage’. As marriage is in the Bible only ever man and woman, and as sexuality is not a proven scientific genetic or innate condition, I would say that a marriage is between a man and a woman period. If the marriage is heterosexual then it must be between a ‘straight’ man and a ‘straight’ woman and if a homosexual marriage, between a ‘gay man’ and a ‘lesbian woman’.
The key point being man and woman. 
Secondly, the fact that in scripture marriage is only ever man and woman and the fact that Jesus refers to God creating woman for man ‘therefore’ and ‘for this reason/thus’ ‘heneka’ tells us specifically what the purpose of creation is, regardless of whether this is Jesus main point or not.

As to your comment
“To read it as saying anything about the sex of the partners seems to me to be not so much against the point of the text as entirely beside it. “
Whilst I would be prepared to accept Jesus might be making a statement of equality, it is somewhat implied. What you seem to have missed is what is stated. If Matthew 19 actually said God created them male and female ‘for this reason a man and a woman shall be equal’ you would have an undisputable point, but as God created them male and female for this reason ‘to be untied as one flesh’ I would reject your comment and say that the sex of the partners is indeed undisputedly what this passage is affirming.
In short I think you have believed an assumption at the expense of a fact.

[58] Posted by Apollos on 03-30-2007 at 07:57 AM • top

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