Gay Activists, Small-Time Journalists Stalking Armstrong

Don’t you know that if this sort of behavior had occurred with Gene Robinson or Katherine Jefferts Schori they would have been canonized by now and we would be doing a special martyrs day for them from our prayer book!!!

But, you know, since it’s a reasserter and all, and they *deserve* it for being so Very Bad and Disagreeing with the progressives, it’s all okay.

What a farce.

If i threw a pie at VGR, or went and kicked the walls of All Saints, Pasadena, the outrage and shouts of hate crime would be at full volume from all over TEC.

Sounds like they all need to hurry and join Brad at that Reconcilers seminar he’s at.

So instead they provide Gene with death threats and write nasty things about him on websites.

One thing you can always say about conservatives is that they are adept in being a humour-free zone.

Congratulations for discovering satire, by the way - even if you don’t like it. Brits appear to believe that Americans don’t do irony.

Must go off and kick that church once more….

Please Mersey Mike, when you kick that church, wear protection or your foot might get hurt.

It’s satire and humorous when GLBT people do it, it’s a “hate crime” when we do it ... oh, I see ...

Like kicking a church is a hate crime - what planet are you living on? Stop playing the martyr.

A planet where you are a sideshow or perhaps you’d like to be a clown?

So, um, merseymike… if we go and kick All Saints Pasadena, and Susan Russell comes out and starts screaming at us, will you drop her an email in our defense, maybe ask her what planet she’s living on?

GLBT = funny, ironic, satire, only ones who are victims, martyrs ...

okay, I see. That’s right they’re ones for social justice too. Hmmm ...

I’d sincerely hope she would have something better to do.

That’s not what I asked.

I’m pretty sure that if a conservative stalked Susan Russell in this way, Merseymike would pretty quickly warm up to the concept of a “hate crime.”

...will you drop her an email in our defence...

MM:  Apparently there is a language barrier.  Hopefully, this will clarify Greg’s question.

Par for the course,almost as good as Paris Hilton whining about injustice.

An interesting confirmation that orthodox churches and their leaders have been targetted long ago by non-Christian, political groups, which advocate personal attacks and harassment, if not worse.  Grace Church and others like it should probably up its security, have its buildings and communications equipment regularly scanned for illicit electronic devices of all kinds.  Isn’t it a great society in which churches are forced to bear these kinds of expenses?  I think there needs to be new legislation to penalize any who engage in, foment or conspire to commit these religious-based hate crimes. 

Don’t you just love the “tracking” campaign that is not stalking?  Let the non-Christian stalkers come unto the Stalking Bishop, a perfect mockery of Jesus.  They so richly deserve one another and yes, a restraining order is definitely warranted, if for no other reason than to document the inability of these groups to refrain from excesses when confronted with people who disagree with them.  On their and TEC’s Animal Farm, where everyone is equal but some more equal than others, they are the biggest, most equal of all.  They are down right greedy for their “equality” and will grab it wherever there is no force in place to stop them.

The irony here is that when Amendment Two was proposed in Colorado that denied gays certain rights and protection—I preached against it with vigor.

At a debate here in Colorado Springs, the lesbian pastor of the Community Church stuck up for me as someone who was a freind of gays in the community—-and when the gay pride parade comes by our church each year, I know almost everyone marching in it and all the more mature gay citizens of Colorado Springs call out greetings and wave.

As my Bishop, Martyn Minns, says: We are biblically conservative but pastorally liberal—so these guys would be making an enemy of a friend.

However, I will not paint my gay and lesbian friends with the brush of this very adolescent behavoir—although having people throw pies at you and stalking you is not a very nice way for anyone to spend their day in a small western town.

And by the way, that parking place I used is unmarked has become the spot for picking up carry out coffee—with no tickets ever issued for anyone parking there.

Don Armstrong

A new revelation!  I think it has been the impression of most of the readers of StandFirm and T19 that Merseymike was completely and totally lacking in humor.  Not so.  MM thinks kicking the churches of reasserting parishes and stalking their rectors is “rolling on the floor laughing till your sides ache” funny.

OH MY GOSH!
Paddy wrote, “Par for the course,almost as good as Paris Hilton whining about injustice. “
I am devestated; I thought SF was a safe site where I would be safe from encountering anything about Paris Hilton!  But at least no Brittny Spears, etc, etc

Unfortunately, Fr. Armstrong, your attackers hate Christian love, even when it protects them.  But it is a great hope for many that you are not deterred from it.  Thank you.

Interesting that my comment wasn’t posted.. Too close to home?

It consisted of protesters literally kicking the walls of churches that represented anti-gay views.

Umm… yeah.  That’ll learn ‘em…

I think the whole thing is daft, but its certainly not something to get upset about…...however, I can think of better things to do with my time. It wouldn’t be my chosen way of making a point.

But compared to the bile and unpleasantness you lot regularly write about Gene Robinson, it pales into insignificance.

If Don Armstrong flagrantly commits such egregious violations of the law in public it makes one wonder what other illegal acts were not detected.  For all we know Father Don could be a mattress tag ripper!

Actually I agree with +Armstrong.  This really is pretty lousy adolescent behavior and no one deserves to be treated this way.  I have to admit though I have a love for political cartoons, doesn’t matter right or left if they’re witty enough.  But politicians sort of put themselves out there for that, I don’t see how +Armstrong has.

Not a mattress tag ripper!   

Oh, heavens, please Rev. Armstrong, say it’s not true ....

TransplantedOkie—don’t take the lost comment personally.  When SF gets busy it’ll sometimes miss submitted comments—especially (it seems to me) when submitting from “Preview.”  I have no idea why, but I can guarantee it has nothing to do with the content.

Usually the “back” browser button will take you to your last editing screen, with your text more or less intact, and you can try again.  But for safety’s sake I always Ctrl-A [mark all in edit box] Ctrl-C [copy to clipboard] before submitting.  That way if the comment gets completely lost you can paste and try again.

Wonderful posting, Father Armstrong! Keep standing firm in the faith!

Does anyone else see a rather Orwellian in nature, 1984 style conspiracy here? Seriously, Newspeak, the name of the publisher? You have got to be kidding me. If what you are trying to do is help people, how does this meet that end? If what they are trying to do is hurt people, how can they sleep at night?

Yours in Christ,
jacob

They published the pictures of the Jeep for no other reason than to badger Father Don.  The make and model of the vehicle is not relevant to the story at all.  They have one picture which shows the winch on the front bumper and this comment:

Note the winch on his front end! Rrrrarrrnh. He’ll probably need it for something soon.

I have no idea what point the journalist was trying to make with this reference of the winch.  However, the real reason for publishing a picture of the winch was to include the Colorado license plate.  This is sheer harassment.

Mike,
Hate mail to VGR is hugely inappropriate as well.  There are crazies at both ends and we (both sides actually) should not be engaging in this at all.  Criticism and satire is a different thing.  Stalking, pie-throwing and death threats are in a category of their own ... hate crimes.  However, I do think that there are far more ‘in-your-face’ types on the loonie and not so loonie liberal end.

Sarah Dylan Breuer, what do you think?

I know all too well what it’s like to have to fear that someone will disrupt a service of worship with their political agenda, and I can envision very few circumstances in which such a disruption could be appropriate. The pie-throwing incident strikes me as particularly dippy as a ‘direct action,’ since it wasn’t at all clear what the ‘protester’ was protesting or why, and whatever it was probably had nothing to do with banana cream. From what I understand, the pie-thrower wasn’t Anglican or even religious, so I suppose one can’t really expect him to have an understanding of sacred space, but even so, the action was a violation of basic consideration and decent manners, and I believe it was inappropriate. I also think that Don Armstrong’s response of good humor and forgiveness was not only appropriate, but also honorable and exemplary. Furthermore, I think it was wise. Whatever else the pie-throwing was calculated to do, it probably was intended to disrupt and garner attention, so the more attention it gets, the happier the pie-thrower will be.  (I certainly have the sense that this is a guy who didn’t the difference between “good attention” and “bad attention” in childhood, when most of us do.) The best way to minimize that disruption, discourage future similar actions, and, as St. Paul said, to “heap burning coals on the head” on one who lashes out is to do just what Fr. Armstrong did.  Had I been in the congregation that morning, I would have applauded him in that moment, and I’m certainly applauding his response now in cyberspace.

On the parking pictures: if someone’s following Fr. Armstrong around, that’s creepy.  Again, I know what that feels like all too well, and I think it’s wholly inappropriate in this case.  If someone happened to see Fr. Armstrong, recognized him as a public figure, and snapped his picture with their cell phone or somesuch while he was parking, I don’t know if it’s creepy or inappropriate so much as pointless and rather desperate-looking. It’s true that there’s a reason that the letter of James suggests that not many of us should call ourselves teachers; teachers are judged by a stricter standard, and I try not to do anything I’d be ashamed of were it to be publicized. As y’all know well, I still manage to embarrass myself regularly, and I take it pretty much as going with the territory—all of us who claim publicly to follow Christ are, whether we like it or not, regularly observed in public by people who are going to judge Christianity on the basis of what they see of our lives. But I think that illegal parking is under most circumstances a very minor deal, clergy often need to respond to pastoral emergencies that may warrant parking illegally, and IMO, FWIW, the guy who snapped the photo of Fr. Armstrong is grasping at straws in a way that mostly makes him look like a jerk. If Fr. Armstrong can find a way to respond as graciously to the photographer as he did to the pie-thrower, I might have another reason to applaud. I say “might” because even if Fr. Armstrong is a public figure (and I don’t think he’s exactly “public” in the way that would warrant paparazzi), his family, friends, and parishioners are not, and it’s completely unacceptable for people to violate their privacy. That in itself would be enough for me to consider getting a restraining order were I in his shoes.

So I think there’s a common theme in these two instances: some people act like real jerks with no manners and little sense. When people behave like jerks, a gracious response shows the behavior for what it is, though sometimes it’s necessary to protect oneself when another’s behavior is potentially really harmful. My primary identity is as a Christian, and from what I understand, neither the pie-thrower nor the photo-snapper identify that way, so I don’t see their behavior as a personal reflection on me, and at first I was a little puzzled at why my opinion about it would be of particular interest to anyone. Jerkiness, in my experience, is fairly evenly distributed through the general population, and I try to take it in all instances as a reflection on the individual (and maybe the individual’s parents) rather than on any broad class or movement of people. On second thought, though, conflict often brings out the jerkiness in ordinarily considerate and gracious people, and from time to time I’ve definitely seen even or especially in the church some very jerky expressions of glee or something close to it when someone on the other side of a conflict stumbles. For that reason, I’m glad to have an opportunity to applaud Fr. Armstrong’s gracious response to the pie-throwing. It’s an occasion for grief and pastoral concern when a sister or brother stumbles, and I think it reflects poorly on any of us as Christians when we glory in someone else’s pain. So it’s very nice to have a such a vivid living parable of the priest and the pie-thrower. Let those of us with ears to hear go and do likewise! I’ll certainly keep this story in mind the next time someone throws an actual or metaphorical pie at me. (BTW, if you ever get wind that the pie-thrower is headed in my direction, tell him I prefer coconut meringue to banana cream.)

All of this is rather more than I should be writing about someone who’s not Reinhold Niebuhr at the moment (it’s the last week of the semester here at EDS), so I should quit my web browser and get back to work, but I hope this makes clear enough how I feel about these two things.

And now I’m craving coconut meringue pie. Drat. I think there’s a bit of coconut sorbet in the freezer ...

Apparently this is the first installment of the Grace Anglican investigative series.  Next week’s installment will include pictures of the parish’s senior warden allegedly driving on I-25 in the rain using windshield wipers without first turning on his headlights.  Further installments will have photographs of another vestry member allegedly walking his dog in Palmer Park without restraining the animal on a leash at all times.  What else would one expect from an organization ruled by that Nigerian thug? 

Good answer, Sarah Dylan Breuer!
Pie throwing, though, is on the very edge of what is acceptable, because it is starting to cross the line into political violence.  If that sounds dippy, then we need to address the question of what level of political violence we consider to be ok.  Passive resistance and civil disobedience do not include personal physical attacks on anyone, no matter how physically harmless we perceive the attack to be.

“Hate mail to VGR is hugely inappropriate as well.”

Absolutely. 

And those on both sides of any debate have an obligation to step back a several feet from the edge of acceptable debate, satire and parody.  The editors and most people here and at other sites on both sides of the debate could go to the line and stop, but history has shown that a few people cannot.

For an example of what can go wrong, look at the life of Paul Hill, a graduate of Belhaven College and Reformed Theological Seminary who became a minister in the PCA. Caught up in the rhetoric and stridency of others, Hill’s increasingly extreme views caused him to be defrocked from the PCA and eventually caused him to engage in a militant crusade against abortion clinics.  Ultimately, his worldview became so twisted that he capitulated into the practice of that which he professed to abhor, namely, the taking of human life.  He was executed in 2003, apparently convinced till the end that he was right.

You never know what story or comment will set off an unstable person.  The type of journalism practiced by this publication is wrong because it goes to the edge, and increases the risk that someone will go a step further.  For the same reason, I urge people to step back, way back, from attacks on reappraisers that could be considered personal.

Stop playing the martyr.

Oh, MerseyMike, such the drama queen.

When people behave like jerks, a gracious response shows the behavior for what it is, though sometimes it’s necessary to protect oneself when another’s behavior is potentially really harmful.

Hmmmm….... That sounds just like what Armstrong+ did: Protect himself from his bishop.

the snarkster

Imagine, for a moment, that some opponent of the LGBT (did I get all the initials in the right order?) agenda, started throwing pies in the faces of the PB or Bp. Robinson.  Would it all be great fun and theater? 
I wish Fr. Armstrong nothing but good health but more than a few people have been sufficiently frightended by unexpected events/loud noises/falling objects that heart attacks resulted.  Imagine, if you will, a vicitm of a pie trhowing incident being startled and having a heart attack.  Great theater?  The police would call it involuntary manslaughter. 
How about smashing a pie in the face of the PB while she is consecrating the host?  Funny?  Guerilla theater and justified by her apostasy? 
Fr. Armstrong and his church will survive the juvenile actions of those who refer to themselves as employing “fascist” techniques.  More puzzling is the condonation of their “fascist” actions by the “Inclusivity” gang.  Guess we will know them by their fruits (no pun intended).

Imagine, for a moment, that some opponent of the LGBT (did I get all the initials in the right order?) agenda, started throwing pies in the faces of the PB or Bp. Robinson.  Would it all be great fun and theater?

DaveG, Don’t you get it - what you propose is hate speech, what they do is outreach.

TransplantedOkie,

If your comment didn’t appear, it was a system glitch. We don’t moderate comments around here - they’re posted immediately and automatically by the system.

Post it again - I want to read what you have to say.

Dylan,

Okay… now we have a problem, because there’s no way coconut meringue is better than banana creme.

Okay… now we have a problem, because there’s no way coconut meringue is better than banana creme.

Probably so, Greg—but what else can you expect from someone whose desires are intrinsically disordered? I trust you’ll pray for me, that I might fully realize my God-given potential to appreciate banana cream. In the meantime, does bad taste in sweets qualify for a “thorn in the flesh,” or is it just further evidence of the depravity of fallen human nature? Is it possible for someone like me to be saved by grace, or will I in the end receive only my just desserts?

*Dylan dashes to nail plywood against her windows, lest they be broken in by the simultaneous groaning of thousands.*

Oh no, no—coconut is much better!  But hey, forget the pie—I’ll take my coconut with chocolate.  Lots and lots of chocolate.  Dark chocolate.  Oh, dear—Sarah Dylan, alas, you have helped me onto the downward path… 

So—do we still get dessert?  So much for the diet ... didn’t want to, anyway.

Nice, thoughtful post, btw.  Thank you.  I appreciated it.

Peace….

RE: “So instead they provide Gene with death threats and write nasty things about him on websites.”

I would need to see evidence of the “death threats” and writing “nasty things about him on websites” no doubt means “I disagree with Bishop Robinson on a variety of issues.”

Sorry, but stalking someone and taking pictures of their car and throwing pies at them in public places is harrassment, pure and simple.

<i.or all we know Father Don could be a mattress tag ripper!</i>

This has been the funniest comment on SF in quite awhile.

Sarah Dylan Breuer:

Excellent assessment.  Thank goodness there are reappraisers out there who are intelligent, thoughtful, and well spoken.  Besides, coconut IS better than banana cream.

OK, Greg - NOT ONLY did the Okie comment disappear - now it looks like I’m being obnoxious!

THis was the comment I was referring too:

Father Don is a mattress tag ripper!

You’d better watch it, Greg, or there’s a coconut cream pie out there with your name on it!!

It is very true that coconut meringue is a far better thing than banana creme. 

Anyone who believes this is clearly “not far from the kingdom”—and those who believe otherwise have taste issues and I’m not sure that they could really be called Episcopalians, despite their having most likely purloined some kind of menu review recently from a real Episcopalian and posted it as their own.

RE:  Paul Hill

I’m formerly OPC.  I have my suspicians about what may have influenced Paul Hill to go off the deep end.  If I’m correct about the identity of the “what,” I can tell you that those folks are quick to disown loose cannons like Hill.  Basically, distancing oneself far away from Hill, doesn’t necessarily mean that one has distanced themselves from what influenced Hill. 

Hill was a nut disowned by lesser nuts, and non-nuts.  Which is precisely why he can’t be used as a negative example - he’s just too “out there.”

I’m more concerned about the lesser nuts.

Sarah,

Anyone who believes this is clearly “not far from the kingdom”—and those who believe otherwise have taste issues and I’m not sure that they could really be called Episcopalians,

I really think you are putting pie in a box, here. 

Dear Merseymike,
The ultimate queston is, is it wrong or is it right. I am appalled that Gene Robinson got any personal hate mail (and I dont mean mail that merely disagreed with his views) Similalrly what are ‘anti-gay’ views. Is this guy-anti gay people or anti same-sex sex. I supsect we are back to hatred of anyone who objects to certain sexual activity, I mean when it comes to gay and lesbian becuase when we say we believe sex outside marriage is wrong we arent accused of anti-straight views.

No we recently had a very poor and inaccurate lent talk by Jeffrey John about atonement and he complained about hate mail. As Tom Wright pointed out, anyone who speaks out publically on contentious issues recieves hate mail.
You know we need Christian fundamentalists, people who do not compromsie the gospel, not liberals like Gene Robinson and Fred Phelps who compromise the gospel by promoting things that do not love God or do not love ones neighbour, respectively.

Ridiculous. Pie throwing is a physical assault, and a crime in Colorado. Treat it like that. Dylan would have us believe this was just bad taste. It is not. It leads to the real possibility of serious physical damage to the perp if he were caught by some angry people tired of such abuse. Further, are we willing to allow these punks to launch objects at us, knowing full well that they may contain materials not so innocuous as shaving cream? As with everyone else, I believe that if I did this to VGR or Missus Schori, I would be locked up in a trice. I do not consider this as a joke, and these responses as further indication of the Double Standard Of Reappraiser Behavior, peace and blessings be upon it.

Father Armstrong—I enjoyed your post.  What you wrote sounds so much like the Body of Christ that I know and have come to love dearly.  Right is right and wrong is wrong, but in spite of any of that, we seek to love all of our neighbors as ourselves.  Extending grace in the manner you described is such a basic part of that, and so is the ability to truly enjoy the other person, even though we may be diametrically opposed on some issues.  Thank you for posting—it was a joy to read.

Throwing anything at someone’s face could also injure their eyes and render them unable to do their job, drive or otherwise function as they need to.

I thought this was a no-whining, no freak-out zone. I am reading a LOT from both sides doing just that.
Maybe I just need to understand that you really don’t WANT to get along.
Sad.

“Basically, distancing oneself far away from Hill, doesn’t necessarily mean that one has distanced themselves from what influenced Hill.”

I am intrigued by that comment, being aware of Hill’s path. Can you elaborate?

Now that ia funny, TransplantedOkie.  You say: “I am reading a LOT from both sides doing just that. Maybe I just need to understand that you really don’t WANT to get along. “

What is funny is that as I read this thread, I see just the opposite.  What I see are people reaching out across the borders to each other.  I see a lot of shared humor that crosses both sides.  Sure, some get upset, but so what?  People tend to, and it often happens in the context of real raltionships.  I have very much enjoyed the humor and warmth and affectionate teasing that have gone back and forth, and have enjoyed the perspective of people like D Armstrong and Sarah Dylan.

Pat Kashtock, so glad you found my sadness funny.

TransplantedOkie—This is not to be mean or anything, but you really need to read what the commenters are saying in order to react accurately.  You can explain your meaning if you would care to, but I did not read “sadness” in your post.  It sounded on the angry side and more of a put down to everyone posting here.  “Funny” in the way I used it in my comment means “strange” but using the word strange seemed less than kind, so I used the common “funny.”  It has more to do with being quirky.  I am baffled why you are seeing things so negatively, when they aren’t, at least not here.  Perhaps something else is upsetting you that has nothing to do with this thread.

Peace,
Pat

Pat, thanks for the psycho-babbly “perhaps your upset about something else.” I am a therapist and I think I have a pretty good idea what makes me sad and I can assure you this entire incident and the comments that it has inspired have saddened me. I thought perhaps that I could post, what I thought, would be an innocuous statement. Clearly my naiveté is showing. Fear not; I shall not again give you another opportunity to trot out your dime store diagnoses.
In the off chance that you think my post “sounds angry” let me assure you I am not. Perhaps resigned to the fact that neither side really wants to listen to each other would be a better description. Not that you will find that in your DSM.
My your gifts continue to blossom in ways to serve Him.
TransplantedOkie

Or better yet:
MAY your gifts continue to blossom in ways to serve Him>
Boo to typing with no glasses on!

No psychobabble TransplantedOkie—I was actually serious.  Family therapy was my field of study before my daughter became too ill for me to finish, and your post seemed so odd because most of the thread was not full of grouchy people.  That you thought I was making fun of you baffles me if you are a therapist because I would think one would read more closely—but hey, maybe off duty hours are off duty.  Comment about typing without glasses was funny—as in humorous—I read right through the typo and read it as you meant to say, as I don’t have mine on at the moment, either

And if you were serious about hoping people would get along although on different sides, I actually think many are.  There is a lot of give an take and sometimes a lot of plain speaking—but as you know, plain speaking is far better than dissembling.  It at least leaves a door open for true relationship.  Sure—there can be quite a bit of rough and tumble going on at any given time, but one thing that has fascinated me has been the opportunity to watch people move from an adversarial position, to while still fundementally diasagreeing, actually willing to talk back and forth.  And while perhaps we are no closer to agreeing on issues, there has grown something of a genuine respect and even caring.

Peace,
Pat