How Much Is Too Little? How Much Is Enough?

Although Father Freeman makes some good points, he (admittedly) depends too much upon anecdote.  You can find someone, somewhere, in some church, who will say just about anything. Eucharist, Sunday baptisms, and orthodox teachings are still enthusiatically celebrated in my church.
  As for Freeman’s assertion that Christ’s descent into ‘Hades’ is part of orthodox theology, I disagree.  That Christ died is scriptural; that he descended into hell is not.

The proposal that Christ descended into Hades is only passed along by Fr. Stephen. It is in the Nicene Creed.
Fr. Stephen’s blog has been a consistent blessing and encouragement to my Christian soul. Thank you for posting this here.

I apologize: It is in the Apostle’s Creed!

Margaret - just a quick correction.  The descent in Hades (or Hell or “the place of the dead”) is not mentioned in the Nicene Creed; it is in the Apostles’ Creed.

It is also Scriptural (selah).  I Peter 3:18-19:  “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey….”

The implication here is that after his death, Jesus “preached to the spirits in prison” (hell, hades, the place of the dead).  This is the scriptural warrant by which the Apostles’ Creed states that Jesus descended to hell.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

<blockquote>As for Freeman’s assertion that Christ’s descent into ‘Hades’ is part of orthodox theology, I disagree.  That Christ died is scriptural; that he descended into hell is not. </blockquote>
It is indeed in the Apostle’s Creed.  By way of transposition it is also in the Baptismal Covenant that TEC is so fond of (even before 1979 the Apostle’s Creed was, of course, part of the Baptismal vows).  In the 1979 version, He descended to “the dead” as opposed to “Hades” or Hell, but the original Greek remains unchanged.  So, one assumes, seleh, that if you are an Episcopalian, you do indeed believe it.  Or is baptism now another place where Episcopalians can cross their fingers?

Oops, that should read:
<blockquote>As for Freeman’s assertion that Christ’s descent into ‘Hades’ is part of orthodox theology, I disagree.  That Christ died is scriptural; that he descended into hell is not. </blockquote>
It is indeed in the Apostle’s Creed.  By way of transposition it is also in the Baptismal Covenant that TEC is so fond of (even before 1979 the Apostle’s Creed was, of course, part of the Baptismal vows).  In the 1979 version, He descended to “the dead” as opposed to “Hades” or Hell, but the original Greek remains unchanged.  So, one assumes, seleh, that if you are an Episcopalian, you do indeed believe it.  Or is baptism now another place where Episcopalians can cross their fingers?

You know, I think this is the second time this has happened to me in the last couple weeks.  If I leave out a blockquote marker, and later try to correct it (after I see it printed)- as in the double post above- the site allows me to add new text (as in “Oops….” etc.) but does not accept the marker to close the blockquote.  I know this is a sign that I should be more careful with my html, but it is kind of weird that I can edit copy with no problem, but the html corrections dissapate in the ether of the internet.

tjmcmahon:  Are you using the Preview feature?

Here’s what a blockquote should look like:

<blockquote>Here is some quoted text.</blockquote>

It produces this output:

Here is some quoted text.

Is that what you’re typing, or are you typing something else?

closed communion was the normative practice of virtually every denomination of Christians until the late 1960’s

I am wondering how it was that “closed communion” was dropped by the mainline churches? I wonder if it was a desire to increase membership.

Research now shows that people will pay more (in both pledges and behavioral change) to belong to churches that place requirements on their members. Makes sense that the worship experience is more “valuable” if the fellow parishioners believe the teachings and attempt to follow them.

While it is not the gospel, this article in Wikipedia does site scripture concerning Christ’s descent to Hell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell
And there is a lovely article here:
http://holyascension.blogspot.com/2007/04/o-hell-where-is-thy-victory-o-death.html

Closed Communion has never been dropped by TECusaCORP. It is still the official practice-snort snicker teehee-of the church. It is supposed to be announced prior to the Eucharist that it is open to all Baptised persons.

the snarkster

Randy-
I know what it is <i> supposed </i> to look like, lol.  But hmmm…. preview feature….now, why didn’t I think of that?  That should keep me from making the mistake in the first place. Let’s see if that works…. <blockquote> As for Freeman’s assertion that Christ’s descent into ‘Hades’ is part of orthodox theology, I disagree.  That Christ died is scriptural; that he descended into hell is not. </blockquote> It is indeed in the Apostle’s Creed.  By way of transposition it is also in the Baptismal Covenant that TEC is so fond of (even before 1979 the Apostle’s Creed was, of course, part of the Baptismal vows).  In the 1979 version, He descended to “the dead” as opposed to “Hades” or Hell, but the original Greek remains unchanged.  So, one assumes, seleh, that if you are an Episcopalian, you do indeed believe it.  Or is baptism now another place where Episcopalians can cross their fingers? .... yep, that works

lol- well, no, it didn’t
I think I will give up on corrections for good and just try to get them right the first time from now on

tjmcmahon - How are you editing your comments after you submit them for posting?

Phil Snyder,
Thank you for the reference to 1 Peter. I was not aware of it. I am glad to know that there is a scriptural reference for the belief which, until now, I had held as apocraphal: much more important to Dante than to the apostles.
tjmacmahon,
I am an Episcopalian (Anglican, actually), but does this mean that I have nothing to learn?  Or that I cannot raise questions?  After all, every orthodox church I have attended has used the phrasing ‘descended to the dead’ in the Apostles’ Creed.  And yet, I am sure, this version of the creed is recited by baptized, orthodox lovers of Jesus.
Not enough to accuse me of apostacy, I hope.

Another Scriptural reference for the descent into hades is Ephesians 4:9.  Also, while not directly documenting Christ’s descent into hades, the events mentioned in Matthew 27:52-53 are traditionally understood to have occurred as the result of Christ’s descent into hades, bringing about the liberation of the righteous dead who awaited Him there and then, as Paul implies back in Ephesians 4, ascending with Him into heaven.