AMiA Statement on Lambeth Invitations

I think this statement nails it.  And the Primate of Rwanda seems to have signed off on it, which is significent.

And count me among those who do NOT take a sanguine view of +++Rowan’s invitations.  I think many orthodox (including me) have given him the benefit of the doubt for too long.

WOW!

I like this response the best. It reminiscent of ++Akinola’s letters to the ABC & ++KJS a few weeks ago. Point by point sticking to this issue and reminder of all that gone before up to this point. Maybe that the pattern that undoes all the spin and fudge factor.

“Mission nearly seven years ago, God has faithfully added to our numbers, on average, one new church every three weeks.” Ouch, Katherine, that’s gotta hurt.

It is actually a pretty weak letter.  +Murphy is way out of his league.
I write this as a big supporter of AMiA in general.

Must say that I don’t get statements such as this.  If AMiA’s focus is the Great Commission, and remaining in (T)EC(USA) made that mission impossible then why care about what the Episcopal Church, or even the ABC happens to do?  I mean, do they still want back in? Seems like they very much do, but then again…

I expect Archbishop Kolini and other Global South leaders will address this matter in a decisive way at their upcoming meetings this fall.

Rowan Williams has just taken the pin out of the grenade, thrown away the pin and kept the grenade.  Brilliant.

I became a clergy member of the Anglican Mission in America about 2 years ago in response to what was going on in TEC, especially in my little part of the world.  What was so important about becoming a member of AMiA, and then bringing a congregation into it was just this:
The sponsoring archbishop, ++Immanuel Kolini, (along with the now retired archbishop of Southeast Asia, ++Yong Ping Chung) is such an inspiration.  +Kolini gives to AMiA the missionary DNA needed to reproduce Anglican Christians.  The Archbishop came from the tradition of the East African Revival, which is all about spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Where the Gospel of Jesus Christ is present, the Holy Spirit is alive and acting.  The Mission is not a part of a dying Anglicanism run amuck with politics and no bottom-line truth of revisionistic theology, but a growing and vibrant missionary movement that is now alive in the Americas.  AMiA’s goal is not to try to hold together a dying body, but to grow 130 million unchurched North Americans into the living body of Christ.  And it is seeing results.

There is no need of an invitation to an English-style tea party in a palace called Lambeth to validate the working of Jesus Christ.  It’s all in the working of the gospel.

Three cheers for those who are doing Kingdom work without political recognition.  Their reward will truly be seen in Heaven.

It’s significant that Kolini was consulted.

Bishop Murphy has it right with “intentional distancing.”  I’d go further and say Rowan Williams undercut the entire Primates’ meeting.

The AMiA looks really good about now.

Anglicanfathertom,
Fantastic!  You encapsulate what I find best about AMiA. So why is your Bishop complaining so much about the Tea Party?  I’d hope for a little more, “we’re leaving the past behind, and we’re pressing on toward the mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus.”  Or is it that this—fretting about invitations—is what even AMiA Bishops do, while the folks on the ground are about building the Kingdom?

Knowing +Chuck Murphy and +Sandy Greene and other AMiA bishops like I do, I think that perhaps this statement was not about the lack of an invitation.  Nobody in AMiA really wants to “go back to Egypt”.  I believe the statement came, because it was expected.  I also believe that this may be +Chuck’s way to point out that it is still all about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and +++Rowan Williams is not about that Gospel.  In that case Lambeth simply does not matter.  God blesses those who go about His business.

It is beginning to look as if the GS will soon be explaining to +++Rowan that the drawing of false equivalences will have to stop if there is going to be a meaningful Lambeth 2008.

To me, no surprise, and I’m glad to read it.  You won’t get anything out of Archbishop Kolini except kindness, orthodoxy, and a complete lack of doublespeak. 

No need for me to elaborate on the American majority contrast. It speaks for itself….

I’ve had a day to let it sink in and I am coming down on the side of Sarah’s negatives in Part II of her essay.  True, much can and will happen in 14 months, but if nothing changes and TEC (minus VGR) and Ingram et al get the invite, it is clear that Rowan has played us (the orthodox) for the fools we are.  There never was intended to be discipline and the AMiA’s assessment above seems verified.  I would hope then that the GS breaks cleanly with the AC and forms an Orthodox AC.  Otherwise, the OC is looking pretty safe to me.  (I am at St Peter’s Tallahassee under Orambi of Uganda and will stay put, unless both the AC and the GS fail to discipline.)

<As this crisis within the Communion is being addressed and resolved, the Anglican Mission will maintain its consistent focus on those 130 million people in this country who have yet to respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ by gathering and planting new churches throughout North America. We rejoice in the knowledge that the AMiA is in “full communion” with all of God’s faithful around the world>

+++Rowan- while you are doing your thing we will do ours.  Hope it works out for you.

And I remember just 20+/- months ago when a comment about ++Rowan’s leadership and true colors resulted in much dismay and even scolding from even our hosts here.  Sorry to say “I told you so, but ...”.

Now perhaps we can get on with the real heavy lifting under an Orthodox ‘remanant’ - before it is too late for so many.

Praise the Lord (again) for the likes of ++Orombi, ++Akinola, ++Venables, ++Kolini, et al.

But, where are +Duncan, +Wimberly, and the rest of the “so-called” Windsor Bishops?  I am sorely disappointed.  They could make our lives so much easier if they had the “spines” to take their sheep to higher ground in all of this.  AMiA (or CANA) is looking awfully good right now.

Is there a directory to AMiA parishes? I’m pretty sure there are no CANA parishes in my area.

For a directory, just go to:  http://www.theamia.org/.  It has everything needed.  Click:  “Meet us”, then go to the map and “Find a Church”.  As of Winter Conference, there were about 120 congregations, with 60 new starts waiting in the wings.

PS:  I am not good at “computerese”, so I just keep forgetting items.  AMiA is not organized geographically, but according to affinity.  To be mission oriented, and organize a new church plant, contact the office, and ask how to start.  The office will find a way to network.

Thank you, anglicanfathertom!

Now that I’ve read this petulant missive, I’m even more glad that the ABC did not invite them.  The extremists from both sides can just stay home and stew for all the good it’ll do them.  And the rest of them can go for all the good that Lambeth does…whatever that is… 

This is about as arrogant a statement as Robinson’s.  Phooey on both their houses.

Smuggs, phooey on you!  If orthodoxy is “extreme”, then color me extreme!  The fathers would NOT have put up with TEC and its apostasy.  I guess they’re extremists, too?

I mean, do they still want back in? Seems like they very much do, but then again…

I can’t imagine why they would want back in. The thought of being a member of a heretic and apsotate church headed by the likes of KJS, DBB, VGR and their ilk makes me want to puke…and I mean that in the most disgusting way possible.

It is far, far too late for reconcilliation with TEC for those of us who are out and have found orthodox APO.

While we may not hear from Kolini, I think all that remains now is a message from Venables.

Mark my words…there will be a new Province and a new orthodox primate in the US within the next year.

And once that shelter is established the remaining orthodox in TEC will abandon the herecy in a sprint Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures. This will leaveTEC as nothing but a hollow shell composed of vested unitarians who have no home, no God, no Christ and no future.  May God have mercy on their souls.

(I am at St Peter’s Tallahassee under Orambi of Uganda and will stay put, unless both the AC and the GS fail to discipline.)

Philip—If you need some comfort in knowing where things are heading, you need to counsel with your new Archdeacon. I get a five-minute update every Sunday and sometimes I get more time with him. Frankly, I feel really good about where we’re going based on Eric’s insights. But, I can tell you this, we ain’t going back to TEC in our lifetimes…well, maybe just in my lifetime.

I believe the AMiA is the model for all of us who want to see a vibrant, growing, evangelistic Anglican body in the U.S., regardless of whether or not the ABC grants official recognition.  Of course, it would be fantastic to maintain a centuries-old relationship with Canterbury, but who wants that if it excludes our millenia-old relationship with the Faith once delivered?  It seems to me that a parish as outreach-oriented as Christ Church (Plano) joining with the Anglican Mission ought to be something for all of us interested in mission to consider (and I say that as one ordained in a Global South endeavor that is not AMiA).

Sodbuster,
You’re right. It ain’t gonna happen. Been there too. Twice. 20 years in between.
No AMIA within six hours of LA. Only 3 in the whole state. Way up north in a well-heeled area.
I guess the trick is to get a rich layman to foot the bill for the plant.
No CANA here either. 2 out of the 4 Uganda provinces have internal questions.
TEC isn’t going to be disciplined.
What kind of discipline was expected anyway? Robinson’s not invited. That seems like a start to me.
Bp. Bruno says he doesn’t know if he’s going to Lambeth.
Stay home.
It just seems that all the loud cans now have to actually make a choice.
Oh, they’ll wait, grit their teeth until September. Nothing will happen.
I mean, really. What kind of African-led evangelism can there really be in the USA? Are they going to follow the African way to evangelize?
Episcopal priests wait for people to come to them. “Invite your friends to church.” Yuk.
The orthodox priests are going to have to make a major personality change. Get their hands dirty. Ring a few doorbells. Stand outside supermarkets.
Can you imagine? I can’t.

LA Anglican,

Just find a few like-minded folk and start your own house church, or small group fellowship, or whatever you want to call it.  That’s what we have done.

and Jason,

I am ordained, not under an African Primate (although that is is the works), and not a member of AMiA; but, an AMiA congregation hosted my ordination, an AMiA priest was my presenter…for the diaconate as well as for the priesthood.  We are in frontier territory, where distances are almost prohibitive for poor retired folks; but we fellowship regularly, and participate together in special services…they are only 4 hours away.

It can be done, just jump in and do it.  Don’t wait for someone else to step up to the fore, you have to do it, and let God…!

Or, LA Anglican, you could start a home Bible study, invite a few people, and get your own hands dirty, instead of waiting for a priest or a rich layperson to make things happen.

Chip—we cross-posted—very funny.  Our parish is mission minded, for which I am grateful.  We don’t talk about the Episcopal Church—we talk about personal transformation and discipleship.  We hope to be in our permanent digs this summer and we have a vision to reach the community where our buildings are going up.  God is good!

LA Anglican, I am unaware of any need for a ‘well-heeled’ layman to fund an AMiA plant.  What it DOES take is a handful of willing laymen with the simple commitment to meet and make the church plant happen.  It is a Hell of a lot of work, but that’s about it.  It may be short on drama, and it may take a long time before your group grows enough to be able to get a full-time priest (who might end up being . . . you!)  I really wished something like AMiA would deliver a resource-sized parish, fully-staffed and with multiple Sunday services, to within walking distance of my house.  But, in honest evaluation, I don’t think that’s what God thought I really needed.  I needed what a lot of First-World Anglicans need:  the hard exercise of a parish that moves because the believers genuinely work to make it go, and grows because people bring them in.  The lack of that may be almost at the very centre of what is wrong with TEC/ECUSA.

There’s no rebuke to you in this; just this encouragement:  if you want an AMiA presence in your neighbourhood, there can be one.  Just use the link posted by AnglicanFatherTom , above.

Chip and Jason,
I know how to do it, thanks. If I did do it, it would not be Anglican.

What would it be?

Africanised Anglican,
Thanks for the encouragement, I enjoy your posts very much. BTW, you don’t mention what city you’re in.
And, I have been in touch with AMIA.
Just don’t know if that’s the way I want to go. And even though I’m a seminary grad, don’t know if Anglicanism is the way to go anymore. Certainly don’t want to be a priest at this point.
BTW, right now, I too am an Africanised Anglican. Don’t know how long that’s going to last.

(I ask in sincerity, and without animosity or sarcasm.)

AA,
Independent Baptist or non-denominational bible church.

AA,
we crossed posts. of course, I believe your questions to be sincere.
I have gone through a zillion emotions in the last 24 hours. Even thought about going back to my orthodox TEC parish. Or just blowing off the institutional church and going with the OOZE.

Been there, hope you are right, but it didn’t happen 30 years ago, why would it happen now?

Sodbuster—Because 30 years ago we could not believe that what was happening was real. We assumed that everything would soon get straightened out. We left it to our clergy. We thought they would fix it. Now, we have found that many of them were part of it and that they were planting liberal lay people in leadership roles.

I think the stuff of 30 years ago woke a lot of people up and they started paying attention. As TEC moved more and more into herecy, more and more laypeople became concerned. Sunday attendance started dropping and then, congregations started shrinking.

And, some did leave. Now, it has become a mass exodus; whole parishes and whole diocese are leaving.. And, if APO is provided nationwide, those orthodox remaining will come in droves.

But, the reality is that the Episcopal Church left the orthodox…the orthodox never left the church.

As I understand it, the new province may bery well pick up a number of those churches who did leave 30 years ago and who have been waiting and hoping that this day would come. Those who left then we should acknowledge, were the truly devout who were much smarter than we and left at the first sign of herecy. We should applaud them.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, LA. 

I sympathise about uncertainty about whether Anglicanism in any form is ‘the way to go anymore.’  (Probably like yours, most of my friends from the old Episcopal days have decided that it is not:  they have either (1) left Anglicanism for some other denomination, and now kick themselves for ever having bought into what they now regard as a Diabolical fraud tricked out as Christianity; or (2) lost their faith altogether; or (3) committed suicide.)

One thing I tell people in similar situations is something I observed about how people depart from the Christian Faith.  I observed, over years of time, that it was never the triumph of some intellectual atheist debating champion that blew away a Christian’s faith (at least, in any instance that I have seen).  Rather, the Christian has some falling-out with his or her local church, and one Sunday decides that the predictable unexpected emergencies are more worth addressing that Sunday morning than church is.  He or she stays home.  The sky does not fall in.  Next Sunday—the emotional wounds remaining unhealed, and time being a precious commodity, he or she does the same.  He turns up (maybe) the next week, or the next holiday, but nobody mentions having noticed his/her absence.  Absences become more frequent.  Before long, and maybe even without any conscious decision having intervened, our Christian has fallen out of a sense of Christian community.

It is at THIS point that the arguments against the plausibility of Christianity truly take their toll on this person.  Suddenly the idea of the creation of the universe without any Divine role whatsoever seems a whole lot more plausible.  The idea that right and wrong are mere mental or emotional of societal constructs seems compelling.  Our Christian loses his or her faith.  Again and again, I have seen this pattern.  Each time—initially, to my surprise—the order of causality is as above:  first, one falls out of the community; then, one loses one’s faith.

This is the greatest reason, I think, why it is important to have a Christian community into which one can fit with enough comfort to work and sacrifice for it.  If that is happening, I think you will be able to survive and grow, and to help those around you to do so, as well.  If you fall in with a group with a really bad fit, such that you perceive yourself to be an outsider, it would be good to find—or make—a group that would be a better fit.  Mind you, I quite sympathise about how tempting it is to blow off the institutional church and ‘go with the ooze.’  Sometimes it was only out of the concerned observation I’d had about loss-of-faith following blowing-off-of-community that I was able to haul myself out of bed and to church in the mornings.  Stand firm!  You can do it.

Here’s another thought, though, that I’ll mention, for whatever it’s worth.  You say that there is no AMiA presence within six hours of LA.  That’s pretty scandalous, for starters—and I’ll agree with you about how frustrating it is.  How many people—how many millions of people, are within that area you describe?  I know the number must be high, but maybe you could actually put a ballpark figure to it.  How many, do you think?

I would wager that there are quite a few there who are close enough to being in the same boat that they wouldn’t mind collapsing (wearily!) onto whatever floating clump of planks you could manage to start pulling together.  You’re a seminary grad, you say?  Sounds like you had some thoughts that God was calling you to some kind of leadership ministry some time ago.  I tell you, that background would be of great value to the (let me guess low and say few dozen) people who, exactly like you, are sitting at home in the dark in the greater LA area, wishing there were an AMiA presence within driving distance.  Who knows but that you may have been hammered by God into just the (battle-dented?) shape you have for just such a time as this?  I planted a university ministry once after listening to one too many woeful retellings of the story of how a radical revisionist priest had been appointed by the diocese, and had driven off virtually all of the members in a single year.  I mean, the people were STILL ALL THERE—they just weren’t meeting; they were all sitting at home alone, wishing there were a group they could be part of again.  Finally, I just heard one story too many, hammered my fist onto the arm of my chair, and said, “Let’s DO something about it!”  I went home and started making a list of all the people I knew who might be interestable in forming a new Anglican group.  I cold-called every single one of them, and got about 5 per cent interest.  I made the rounds near the campus and found a church within walking distance that would agree to let us use their space at an off time.  I found someone to do music.

It was like dropping a seed crystal into a saturated solution.  The group took off.  I was leaving town within weeks of the start-up, so I turned it over to a fellow student (who, like you, was aspiring off and on to the ordained ministry.)

Give it some thought.  Lest you be discouraged or feel undermotivated or otherwise unequipped for the task, just hold before your mind the simple logical probability that there are real people sitting around out there wishing that just such a group would happen.  The hardest part is assembling the first few people.  A lot of people who’d love to join won’t hear about it until you get going a bit, but one nice thing about the year 2007 and the AMiA is that there is now a website that will help the lookers find you, and you them.  Pester AMiA for a little help with the publicity, and you may find yourself at the ground floor of something that will be the accomplishment of a lifetime, and a jewel in the crown of our God.  They that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and they that lead many to righteousness, like the stars, for ever and ever.

If I can be of any help in any way at all, feel very free to drop me an e-mail offline (StandFirm has a mechanism for doing this).

I’ve prayed for you (and for those others out there whom you might reach and help) as I’ve typed this.  Be of good cheer:  like He said,  He has overcome the world.  Now let’s just go and help Him mop up.

Africanised Anglican,
I am stunned and humbled by your prayers, thoughts and the time you took to answer a discouraged Anglican.
It’s amazing to me that in a metropolis of upwards of 6 million in the general LA area, and 140 Episcopal parishes in the LA diocese (I was in charge of the international Anglican men’s ministry here), only 4 or so parishes broke away and there are only 2 TEC Network churches.
I have put off church planting because of family issues at the present time.
But I live 2 blocks from a 35,000 student major university and often thought about a ministry there.
In any event, this is a major mission field.
And I am in the Hollywood film community, with all that entails.
I have basically cut myself off from my old Episcopal friends when I left TEC and earlier when I quit my men’s ministry over VGR.
And I would love to start something.
I’ll shoot you off an e-mail by the weekend.
I could use your help.

As I understand it, the new province may bery well pick up a number of those churches who did leave 30 years ago and who have been waiting and hoping that this day would come.

I really hate to quote myself, but as I reread this I started thinking about it.

Can you imagine, 30 years ago, going through what we’re dealing with now; believing in your faith and recognizing that TEC was on the road to herecy? So they left, but most of us stayed. And to some extent, we have lived with herecy, believing that in the long run God would set us free.

What is really happening now is that, with God’s help, we are setting ourselves free…just as the Israelites did when they fled from Egypt. And perhaps, looking at it another way, TEC is setting us free by walking away from us.

Been There… I just like to hear of churches coming together again - in orthodox Christian belief.

LA Anglican and Africanized Anglican:

I see your conversation as part of the miricle of rebirth that is the new Anglican Communion. We have all been disheartened by the turn of events, but I have found that if you believe and if you stay faithful, God will show you the way.

LA Anglican: I would suggest that you check into the American Anglican Council website. Last time I was there they had numerous job postings. In addition, I also suggest that you go to the AMiA website for the same search.

This thing is getting ready to start moving very quickly and I suspect the demand for orthodox priests is gonna grow and grow and grow.

Stay faithful and all will be well. Good Luck!!!!

LA:  You’ve got it!

Been There:  The interesting thing is, none of this has taken God by surprise.  You and I and the rest of us have had a ring-side seat to view one of the most spectacular attacks the Enemy has launched against God’s people.  The good thing about it is that if we are able to rebuild something out of this mess—if Jesus Christ uses us in so doing—what results is going to be battle-tested, savvy, and almost impossible to kill.  We will be uniquely situated to respond to the needs and threats of our culture.  We will have been stripped of most of our baggage.  We have friends in other denominations (and maybe other Anglican provinces) that are about to see the same secular-social tidal wave rip through in the next few years.  If we survive this, we can help them to do so, too.

Failure to recognise the process you describe, above, let TEC/ECUSA/the CofE get taken over by people whose lord is not God.  Now, it is becoming increasingly, increasingly clear what has happened.  It’s been a hard ride—but we are now veterans of this kind of struggle, and we have, really, very little to lose.  Kinda bracing, actually. 

I like your analogy to the Exodus.  We have the piling-up of twelve stones from a dry riverbed to look forward to.

Psalm 114

1
  Hallelujah!
  When Israel came out of Egypt, *
  the house of Jacob from a people of strange speech,

2
  Judah became God’s sanctuary *
  and Israel his dominion.

3
  The sea beheld it and fled; *
  Jordan turned and went back.

4
  The mountains skipped like rams, *
  and the little hills like young sheep.

5
  What ailed you, O sea, that you fled? *
  O Jordan, that you turned back?

6
  You mountains, that you skipped like rams? *
  you little hills like young sheep?

7
  Tremble, O earth, at the presence of the Lord, *
  at the presence of the God of Jacob,

8
  Who turned the hard rock into a pool of water *
  and flint-stone into a flowing spring.

oscewicee

Weellllll…and I serously do not want to seem flip…but I do not think you’re gonna see a lot of that. And that makes me sad as well.

I find it truly interesting that my former TEC church now finds itself squirming. Some of my friends who remained with 2/3 to 3/4s of the congregation departed, became exceptionally unhappy with the GC of 2006 and even more so after HOB 2007.

Since then, many who stayed when we left have come to join us. Likewise, many of those who left the old church because of the orthodoxy of the clergy have now returned. Our church is growing strongly and the old church is growing as well.

It is possible that there might be another schism in that church but I really don’t think so. I think they well remain a unitarian universalist epsicopal church and that there will be no reconcilliation.

And as we move forward to build our new Anglican Catheral, I think our commuiicants will become stronger in faith while those at the old TEC church will be, to some extent, floundering. I pray for them frequently.

I can tell you this. The new church has grown by half again..about 1000 at the split to about 1500 now…and the presence of God and Jesus Christ is undeniable. As for myself, I cannot describe the joy I have felt in my soul nor the joy that is present each Sunday. I have not experienced this in almost 30 years.

I truly cry in my heart for those orthodox cradle Episcopalians who have seen their church stolen from them and are still struggling in the hope that it will come back.

I believe this is denial. And I can accept it, because I denied it 30 years ago and kept hoping for a reversal. It’s not coming. It’s over. But there is a new hope ahead.

And while churches may not come together, the faithful will…and they will form a new church stronger, much stronger, than the one before…if God be willing and I truly beieve he is.

It’s been a hard ride—but we are now veterans of this kind of struggle, and we have, really, very little to lose.

And we will remain so for a couple of generations then the devil will unsuspectingly slip in again and they will have to deal with it.

I grew up (until age 12) as a Southern Baptist. I truly believe that it was my baptist teaching which helped me keep the faith as TEC crumbled. From the time my eyes opened until age 12 I was hammered with the incredible strength of faith of the Baptist Church. There are many thing I disagree on in the Baptist Church bgut it is not in their strength of faith in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Gospel.

I pray that our new church will have that strong educational program so that when Satan knocks on our door the next time, we will not allow him to steal our house. It’s been 30 years since my daughter was in Episcopal Sunday School and I was somewhat comfortable about her Christian education then. However, I tlked to a couple last Sunday who pulled their daughter and son out of Episcopal Sunday school because they were getting a social and secular education rather than a religious education.

He talked in terms of stories about “Heather has two mommies, but that’s OK” or “Johnny’s really close friend is Bob and they have fun together and that’s OK.”

In my youth in the Baptist Church, we talked about scripture and Gospel and the Ten Commandments, and John 3:16 and the Lord’s Prayer and Moses in the bullrushes, and on and on and on. Those stories were beautiful and built faith. We lost that in the Episcopla church about 25-30 years ago and now, many cradle Episcopalians do not have the strength of faith to stand up and fight against Satan.

Our new Anglican Church must have the strength of faith of the Baptist Church combined with (to a limited extent) the freedom and and liturgy of the Anglican Church.

While the Baptist Church empasizes its roots in John the Baptist, we must emphasize our roots with the desciples. We must continue to allow all baptized Christians to take communion with us while, at the same time, accepting that other Christian denominations are as faithful and acceptable in God’s eyes as are we. But, we must never, as TEC has done, accept unrepented sin as normal and acceptable.

I think much of this will be worked out in the covenant. And, that, in itself, will provide a discipline that we have never had before. Before this crisis, we were loving and trusting. We failed to acknowledge Satan when he entered our midst. Then, suddenly, we realized he was there but he had grown to strong for us to throw him out. All we could do by then was argue. And his minions were greater and stronger than us. He took our church from us and threw us out.

We must make sure, for the sake of our children and our children’s children that this must never happen again.

God be with us all.

We have friends in other denominations (and maybe other Anglican provinces) that are about to see the same secular-social tidal wave rip through in the next few years.  If we survive this, we can help them to do so, too.

I think many are waiting and watching for the outcome of our battle. If we win, it will be a victory for Anglicanism as a whole. If we win, the model we create will serve as a model for provinces around the world. If we win, God and Jesus Christ will return to many churches if they are called by the people.

Christianity is under severe attack from secularism. The next attack,,,already under way…will be from Islam.

The latter will be our toughest fight and I believe that it will create many martyrs. I also believe it will be Christianity’s final test before the end times.

Ah yes…and who am I, Nostrodamus? Nope…just an humble layperson watching pieces of the puzzle dropping into place.

Not to hijack the thread, but, Been There, have you noticed that historic Babylon is now ruled from the city overlooked by the National Cathedral?

I now return to our regularly-scheduled thread.

AA

One last comment. Thanks for the Psalm. I thought I had read them all but I don’t remember that one. It’s beautiful and incredibly approprriate.

God Bless

Not to hijack the thread, but, Been There, have you noticed that historic Babylon is now ruled from the city overlooked by the National Cathedral?

Heh, heh…Waaallll…I’m not so sure Babylon is “ruled” by that city. I think “coached” may be a more proper term.

The National Cathedral in one of the most beautiful churches I have ever been priviledged to attend. Unfortunately, I have looked in every knook and cranny, upstairs and downstairs, in the undercroft and narthex, in the southex and steeple and I couldn’t find God, Christ, Scripture or virtually anything related to Christianity.

It did have a nice choir, though. They sang to a virtually empty Church…maybe 20-25 people. But, of course, this was an ordinary 11 a.m. Sunday service without the president, members of Congress and the media. Based on this, I would guess that their ASA is about 100, including the 9 a.m. service.

As a matter of fact, my little group hit the 9 a.m. service and were taken to a crypt in the undercroft where a priestess delivered the service; music was provided by a guitarist and eucharist was unleavened bread and grape wine. HOWEVER, it is truly amazing in that I felt communion was the only thing Anglican or Episcopal that I understood and I di dfeel God’s presence. The little congregation was made up of about 25 people…mostly tourists like us.

I know there’s a website that provides ASA numbers and if someone can go there and post the chart, I’d like to see how much my estimate differs from whatTEC reports. By the way, my last visit was about five years ago. I suspect the ASA is even down more.

Back to thread???

+Murphy’s summary is appropriate and correct.  The rest of the thread is a good primer on the problems we all face in the coming Anglican Reformation. I have fought this battle for 40 years, and never before stood on the threshold of a date certain staring down the apostates, requiring them to perform. I have respect for +++Rowan’s skills and will wait for 9/30. I have no choice anyway.  There is no other Anglican presence within 200 miles of here. I will say this: If +++ABC and or the Primates let the day of reckoning go by without acting (within days or weeks) I will set about confronting my Bishop on his intentions, and organizing a new Anglican presence hereabouts. All well and good for us in a relatively well populated part of the country. What if you live in Eastern Colorado, Oklahoma etc. ? Do you continue at good old St. Rudolph The Apostate Episcopal Church just because it is the only thing there? Priestess and all? There are plenty of places to go in LA, not so many in Oklahoma pan handle type places, and that is a real problem.

I fully expect that AMiA and CANA will become to the Episcopal Church much like the Missouri Synod is to the ELCA.  And that raises the question of which one is larger?

IMHO, invitation of the missionary bishops to a non-working Lambeth (at this point) does not seem that important to me, aside from the symbolism, the treatment of TEC, and the subtext of breaking with the primates.

There is a very real and profound disconnect between the actions of the ABC and the primates.  Of course, the ABC issues invitations to Lambeth, but his timing and treatment of the parties is hardly in accord with the conciliar actions of the primates - so,the ABC is being unconciliar and unilateral in this break.

IF it is a good strategy to issue invitations now, and IF it is a good strategy to treat the parties has he has, then why couldn’t the ABC at least explain his timing [not necessarily to us] to [at least certain of] the primates?

It is wishful thinking to speculate that the ABC has our [or the greater communion’s] best interest at heart in making this move, when history has shown him to be [at best] ineffective in aiding reasserters.

One final note - why is Opporto referenced as binding [re: missionary bishops] and not Dromantine or Dar es Salaam?  That seems a bit like picking and choosing authority…

“Way out of his league”

I felt the same way about AMIA’s leadership when it was created.  I wondered if they were the best and the brightest, and like John the Baptist, it seemed they were a little “out there.” Besides, I wasn’t ready to leave the Episcopal Church yet, and they made me nervous (and a little convicted).  Also, I wasn’t wild about the music at most AMIA services I had attended.

I now realize I was wrong about AMIA and its leadership. While AMIA had some misteps, as David Roseberry chronicled a few months back it underwent a metamorphasis over the last six years.  It no longer looks in its rear view mirror at TEC, instead is focusing its gaze through the front windshield. 

Does anyone know if there is a GS meeting scheduled for the fall/winter?  As Matt said earlier, we appear to be reaching a tipping point.

I fully expect that AMiA and CANA will become to the Episcopal Church much like the Missouri Synod is to the ELCA.

At the moment, the AMiA is larger and older than CANA, but both organizations are young and missionary-minded.  IMHO, both have bright futures as church-planting missionary networks of congregations under godly bishops.

I was going to write something in reply, but opted ignor it, but it came back up after an interesting conversation.

RE:”+Murphy is way out of his league. ”

I’m going to beg to differ and suggest some read +Murphy with a bit of prejudice.  I’m having a little cognitive disconnect as things are unexpected. I found the +Minns letter uncharacteristically unfocused, especially comparing it to other +Minns’ communications. I’ve never know +Murphy to really be politically engaged this way, thus maybe my expectations are lower. So the flip-flop of my expectations is really striking. Not to say that next week, thing will be more like I expect them, but I did find it very odd.

I apologize; that line seems excessively harsh out of context.

I do admire +Murphy very much for those things he is good at; I personally do not feel that public relations is one of those things.

I missed the initial response thread to this posting…but I have nothing but admiration for Bishop Murphy and his response to the ‘invitation issue’.  It has taken me a few days to have it soak in…but I have never been more sure of the AMiA and their rifle focus.  Thank you, +Chuck for your faithfulness…

For those in outlaying areas looking for an AMiA parish…stand firm and stand ready.  The missionary engines of the AMiA are firing up.  There is more to come…

First off, Let me say that I am very impressed as well with +Murphy’s response. And I say this as one who is recently ordained as a Deacon in AMiA, and continuing on towards the priesthood. AMiA is also my first Anglican church as I come from a non-denominational, Bible chuch background.

Like many others, I made this move to Anglicanism (AMiA) after a number of years journey (thank you Robert Webber). I did so with open eyes of what is going on in the broader Anglican world.
What I am excited about is the opportunity to be part of a renewal of Anglicanism in America. AMiA is giving me the chance to do so.

I am currently in the early stages of planting a new AMiA church in downtown Phoenix, Arizona. Downtown Phoenix is on the cusp of breaking out like many other downtown, revitilization projects across the country. One of the main cornerstone is Arizona State University planting a 15,000 student campus in downtown Phoenix. There is real opportunity to do ministry and build a vibrant, reproducing church that reaches the greater Phoenix community of some 3 million people.

I say this in response to some of the dialogue between AA and LA Anglican. I know that I am not in LA, but I don’t think I am unique to what is happening in AMiA. I do have great HOPE for the future in the midst of the current uncertainty. Jesus Christ has established His Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it!

Teddy Mak, you wrote:

There is no other Anglican presence within 200 miles of here. I will say this: If +++ABC and or the primates let the day of reckoning go by without acting (within days or weeks) I will set about confronting my Bishop on his intentions, and organizing a new Anglican presence hereabouts. All well and good for us in a relatively well populated part of the country. What if you live in Eastern Colorado, Oklahoma etc. ? Do you continue at good old St. Rudolph The Apostate Episcopal Church just because it is the only thing there? Priestess and all? There are plenty of places to go in LA, not so many in Oklahoma pan handle type places, and that is a real problem.

 

I really feel for you about your remote-location situation—and (probably like the rest of AMiA) am willing to help to the extent possible.  It may be that you can think of ways in which I (or others) can be of help, that we cannot—so, if you have any bright ideas, let me (or us) know.  Your situation seemed urgent enough that I thought it best to respond as quickly as possible.

One thing strikes me quite favourably from what you write.  It is your resolve.  ‘I will set about . . . organising a new Anglican presence hereabouts.’ The truth of this statement is, at the bottom line, what will make this venture work—both where you are, and around the country.

Your situation is actually the situation of all Anglicanism in the US, both Christian and anti-Christian.  In that fact lie both our risk and our opportunity. 

It is my conviction that this did not take God by surprise, and that we—around the country, and even around the world—are finding ourselves in this difficult situation by God’s grace and providence.

Here is the difficulty:  Anglicanism is losing members, and, almost everywhere in the US, it did not have all that many members to begin with.  This has been generally true across the board. 

The exceptions have chiefly been those parishes that have more or less abandoned the denomination’s laughable ordinary reliance on their ‘The Episcopal Church Welcomes You’ signs to do all their outreach and evangelism, and have instead hit the streets, workplaces, hospitals, etc. and sought people out.  Those provinces that have everybody’s attention because of their upwardly-exploding numbers are that way because they have got used to doing what you and I now have to do:  going out and wooing people to Jesus Christ.

Your advantage over the ECUSA church you call ‘St-Rudolph’s-the-Apostate’ is that you recognise more acutely your need for proactivity; also, any who join you will do so with relatively pure motives, since nobody joins an orthodox Anglican start-up out of a desire for social standing,  ancestral intertia, or any of the other reasons people joined ECUSA parishes decades ago.

You will find this a remarkable training in leadership—and churchmanship.  It will be something like a crash survival school, or one of those intensive language courses taught by the ‘total immersion’ method, with the professor announcing in his first sentence that that sentence will be the last English sentence you will hear before term’s end—and then proceeding to communicate entirely in German (or whatever).

As in the survival school or the total-immersion language class, you will likely find yourselves wondering whether you can possibly survive.  (You can; that wondering is part of the process.  The professor knows this, as he has done this before.)  The fact that there are no other viable options is often exactly what it takes to provide the stimulus to make it work.  You even have this advantage over the university student:  it is God who put you in your current situation, and we have the assurance that He will not demand of us anything that He will not provide the grace and strength to accomplish.  Hey, He even told us what the quorum is:  ‘two or three gathered together in His name.’ 

Hard?  Yeah!  I have found it intensely frustrating when I have had to do it.  The Devil will soon be at your elbow to emphasise how hard it is, and will tell you plausible lies about its impossibility.  Your response has two parts, involving your heel and his head.  Your situation is a blessed opportunity for which you will give account to Jesus not so very long from now.

Your waning association with ‘St-Rudolph’s-the-Apostate’ may have put you within communication range of others who might like to find—which, in this day, probably means ‘make’—a new Anglican group.  Your first step might be to lift these people up in prayer to God, both for their general well-being and for their potential involvement in a new church-plant.  This suggestion I borrow from the advice of David MacInnes, who was the vicar of St Aldate’s Church, Oxford—a thriving church that packed people in for standing-room-only attendance, with people sitting on the windowsills and overflowing the narthex, at the same time the diocese was selling other mediaeval parishes and converting them to libraries or coffee-houses.  Having prayed for them, and sought God’s intentions for them, then approach them from an attitude of service, and see how your potential church-plant idea may be part of God’s providence for them.

You do have another set of assets which are somewhat new to the picture:  unlike decades ago, you have the internet, which gives you the ever-present opportunity to communicate with like-minded believers quite literally around the globe.  I’ve had the odd experience of e-mailing a one-line joke to a speaker who wrote that, a few hours later,  he had used it to elicit howls of laughter from an audience of born-again Christian Murut ex-headhunters on Borneo.  The Communion of Saints is much more readily manifest in a day when your fellow believers can pray for you, listen to you, and offer their advice from very nearly any point on the planet.  Rest assured:  we will do so.

Orthodox Anglicans are getting very intentional about making the most of these advances.  My part of it, AMiA, tries to keep information of those seeking to join to form new Anglican groups, and will very happily take your contact information, pass it along to other inquirers, and tell you of anyone in the area whom they know to be available.  (Their information is incomplete—indeed, they may not yet know about YOU—so be understanding, and also be persistent in making sure that they have every conceivable piece of information about where you are, what towns are nearby, and anything else that could be of help in organising groups in your immediate area.)  They are already organising training programmes ranging from materials on how to start a church plant right up through seminary-like courses leading to ordination.  As the options diminish and the need becomes more and more clear to everybody, the number of interested people has grown quickly.  I do not know what CANA has on offer—I hope they have something—but I encourage you to let them know that you are there and that you are interested, as well.  You might also ask around with groups such as the Reformed Episcopal Church.  I mention these organisations just because I have seen their willingness to cooperate with other Anglican groups in responding to situations such as what you describe.

I think it helps to recognise that collapse of the earlier, more-comfortable way of ‘doing’ Anglicanism or Episcopalianism is probably God’s healing response to our sin.  Specifically, we too long ignored Jesus’ Great Commission, relying on reputation and inertia to fill our churches’ pews; relying on professional paid clergy for leadership; and leaving the work of the Body of Christ to others, or to no-one.  God has judged those habits, and we all know that they are failing.  The apostles and missionaries and martyrs who went before us built up, at great risk and hardship, a strong, thriving, prestigious, and wealthy international denomination that was so easy to join and so undemanding of its members and so socially prestigious that it attracted the apostate and the immoral with the prospect of converting it into a vehicle for advancing their agenda and giving it the specious appearance of righteousness.  God’s corrective is, in my humble opinion, perfect:  He has struck, and is shattering, the visible institution, taking away buildings and endowments and full-time clergy coverage, and dropping into our hands the heavy, humdrum, and often hopeless-seeming task of rebuilding something truly holy from among the smoking ruins.  But this is what He has given us, and He has not done so in ignorance of how it will all turn out. 

Rev. 3

7 He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

8   I know your deeds.  Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

9   Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

10   Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

11   I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

12   He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the Name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.

13   He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

LA Anglican, I may be away from this e-mail address for the weekend, so if you send an off-list message and I don’t respond before Tuesday, that may be why.  (For your part, if you enabled the offline-message option for your StandFirm account, that would let others get in touch with you.  I’d recommend it, since you likely WANT others of like mind and in the vicinity to be able to get in touch with you by all means possible.)

I have already sent messages to my bishop and a few others to ask about people who might be interested in exploring, with you, the possibility of an orthodox church-plant in your area.

Keep in touch, Brother.

There are still many medium sized cities and smaller towns in the USA where no orthodox Anglican parish of any type is available.  This situation is what we need to focus on—not what is happening to the heretics at Lambeth.  They will have their reward—and their punishment later.