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Dr. Ephraim Radner: Lambeth Can Be What it Wants to Be

Tuesday, June 5, 2007 • 9:01 pm


Lambeth Can Be What It Wants To Be    
Written by Rev. Dr. Ephraim Radner  
Tuesday, 05 June 2007

...In light of this discussion, we can answer a number of questions currently being raised about attendance at the Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops.  We can do so by observing the character of the Church’s first great councils – e.g. Nicea and Constantinople – and seeing how in fact they conform to the outline of conciliar life suggested above, and how they clarify current concerns.  Although these two councils represent something “new”, from the perspective of history, they were not in fact “primordial”.  They emerged from and took their place within an existing and long line of previous councils, some of considerable significance and weight.  As “councils”, they are “general”, not de novo.

Does one sit in council with those with whom one is out of communion?

Nicea answered this question affirmatively:  present were not only the Novationist schismatic bishop Acesius, but also Arians (including Arius himself!) who had previously and formally broken with bishops of the (finally decided) “orthodox” party.  One does not need to share the Eucharist with another Christian in order for the counsel of the Holy Spirit to be authoritatively pursued among them.

In the midst of disputes within the Church, including ones that cut deeply and that burden us today, this reality (more fully demonstrated below) cuts in all kinds of directions. 

Does one sit in council with heretics?

Invited to Nicea, as we know, were Arius and his friends and supporters (e.g. Eusebius of Nicomedia, who ended up causing so much trouble for the orthodox after Nicea, despite signing on to the final agreement).

The first Council of Constantinople, over 50 years after Nicea, had to revisit with much anguish and conflict the very matters already decided at Nicea.  This means that the later council, by definition, was one engaged with known “heretics”, established as such by a previous council.  Yet that did not prevent the council’s gathering and its engagement of orthodox and heretic together.

Does one sit in council with the excommunicated?

As the previous question and response show, “heresy” can already be conciliarly defined and still be engaged subsequently on a personal level at another council.  Hence, Arius, along with at least two African bishops, Secondus and Theonus, had been formally condemned and excommunicated by a formal Alexandrian synod, some time before Nicea convened.  Yet Bp. Alexander (and Athanasius, his then-secretary) met with them at Nicea.  Both Nicea and Constantinople gathered bishops who had, at various times, been excommunicated and even exiled by opposing parties.

One of the questions to be asked in the context of the above is, “does not counsel with heretics and the excommunicated threaten the corruption of the council itself and of the church subsequently?”.  This question has been posed within the Anglican Communion currently in terms of TEC being a liberal “heresy” similar to a “gangrene” or “cancer” whose presence cannot be tolerated in council for fear of contamination.  Clearly this was not the view of those participating in the first councils of the Church, including the first two Ecumenical Councils.  It was not so because the nature of Christian conciliarity, as we have explained, is founded on the power of the Holy Spirit within the lives of those taking council, not uniformly, but simply really – just as Jesus’ authority in the Church is based on His own pneumatic life, not on His members’ uniformly. 

Certainly, there are a variety of responses given in the New Testament church to heresy or immorality within the Christian community.  In all cases where possible, discipline is exercised.  But discipline within the New Testament is not uniform – as Paul’s experience with the “false apostles” at Corinth makes clear – and is often set aside in favor of the “power” of the Spirit’s “demonstration” in the lives of the Church’s saints, regardless of the failures of others around them.  Indeed, the one text in the New Testament regarding “gangrene” (2 Tim. 2:17) is not about complete disengagement with heretics, but about the proper kind of engagement, based not on drawn out controversy but on a particular kind of charismatic posture and example as a teacher (2 Tim. 2:24ff.) that leads the erring person to “repentance”. 

The point here is that a council may choose to invite or not, on the basis of discipline or not – none of this validates or invalidates a council.  These are prudential decisions, not matters of faith (see below).

Does one sit at council with those who have betrayed previous councils?

Following Nicea, an entire array of Arians and related “heretics” continued to agitate and in fact often “triumph” ecclesially through episcopal establishement and numerous new councils, both local and wider.  Many, although not all, of these subsequent councils were attended by “orthodox”, who knowingly came to gatherings in which they were outnumbered, deceived, and mistreated.  Their attendance, where possible, was based on the courage, calm, and faith granted them by the Holy Spirit, not on juridical realities.  Such councils were often later judged to be invalid; but not because of their initial gathering, but rather because of their fruit.  I personally believe it to be the case that, at certain point, if one can no longer trust the word of certain members of the Church, their presence at the Church’s councils do indeed become problematic.  But again, to what degree is a prudential decision, not one based on principle.

Does non-invitation of potentially worthy attendees invalidate a council? 

The Bishop of Rome was never invited to (nor did he or his formal representative attend) the Council of Constantinople (and he was, at the time, out of communion with the Council’s president, Melitius, as well as with others present).  Yet, in time – and not a long time either – the Council of Constantinople was recognized by the Pope as a valid “ecumenical” council, despite not even having a formal papal representative present.

The conclusion here, to restate a point made before and well-grounded in conciliar theology, is that councils are authoritative in their historical reception, not in their immediate form.  The form, however, points to the character of the council in an initial way, and eventually reveals that inner character over time:  one comes to council, and God does His work.

Is the Lambeth Conference a council?

Councils are determined retrospectively by their fruit.  There have been “rules” formulated for determining a council’s legitimacy (especially in Western churches, though less so in the East), but these are not in themselves sufficient or even necessary, certainly not always clear (cf. Constantinople I, and various other disputed councils).

The Lambeth Conference was not, as we know, initially understood to be a “synod” of juridical authority;  nor is it yet so considered in any clear way.  The Archbishop of Canterbury recently wrote that the Conference “is not a formal Synod or Council of the bishops of the Communion, which would require us to be absolutely clear about the standing of all the participants”.  This statement is technically true, but it is perhaps misleading.  What in fact does “formal” mean in a conciliar church where the work of the Holy Spirit itself in the lives of a council’s participants grants a council authority?  Does it apply simply to the “regular” aspect of a council – in which case, however, Lambeth is surely such a gathering.  And, as we saw, an authoritative and regularized council may invite all kinds of attendees, without necessarily being “absolutely clear about the standing of all the participants”.  It is the Spirit that lets us “stand” or “fall” (cf. Rom. 14:4) – we should not worry about others.  Finally, the Lambeth Conferences have in fact been in the process of being received in more and more clearly “conciliar” ways, wherein “moral authority” (already recognized by many) has assumed an embodied disciplinary authority, if not yet one that has been well defined.  What does seem clear is that the Lambeth Conference already functions as part of the interlocking reality of the Anglican Communion’s discerning and decision-making life in a way that is essential and effective.

If this is so, we need to understand what exactly is happening when the Archbishop of Canterbury makes decisions and statements regarding a given Lambeth Conference.  First and foremost, he is not ruling on the authority of Lambeth as a council of the Communion.  That is not his role nor his purview.  Only the Holy Spirit rules on a council!  And the Lambeth Conference has been the subject of this pneumatic ruling already now for some years.  Thus, while the Archbishop of Canterbury has the authority “to invite”, he does not have the authority to declare a gathering a true council or not.  Not even the Lambeth Conference

But what of the “invitations” themselves?  The Archbishop of Canterbury may, and he should, exercise his authority to invite in as prudentially acute a way as possible, given all the various needs and pressures at work in the Communion especially in our day.  The “regular” and “ordered” character of the Anglican Communion’s life has given him this role.  This has happened not only through both the providence and accidents of time, but conciliarly, through the “received” acceptance of his role from the first Lambeth Conference until now, and this follows the pattern whereby most councils are convened through particular ordered means and persons.  And until this particular pattern within the Communion is altered in a regularized fashion, the role is his to fulfill in as faithful a way as possible. This we pray he will do. It is possible that this role will one day be altered;  but it cannot be simply altered by individual fiat from some quarter of the Communion, apart from the conciliar life of the Communion itself.

For instance, the Archbishop appears to have specific disciplinary and pastoral reasons why he will not invite Gene Robinson to Lambeth, or Martyn Minns, or several other bishops from around the Communion – e.g. their presence is egregiously scandalous or confusing or preemptive of certain decisions yet to be made.  The point isn’t that there is a grid by which to measure exactly levels of scandal or confusion as attached to specific individuals:  is Robinson more “scandalous” than Arius?  There is no such template.  Rather, the Archbishop must simply do the best he can to weigh the practical realities of attendance and non-attendance, given the goal of conciliar gathering itself.  He also may well have such reasons in the future for withdrawing or further limiting or expanding his invitations.  We may agree or disagree with the Archbishop’s assumed or explicit reasoning, but the invitations themselves are appropriately offered within the context of such prudential and disciplinary reasoning, and the conciliar value of Lambeth simply does not hang on the particulars of the invitations themselves.  Whoever is invited is being called through the formal and ordered means of the church’s conciliar life; and the calling should be heeded.

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Comments:

Wow,
First it was: just wait until after September 30th and then we’ll likely see some invitations withdrawn.

Now it is: Even if they aren’t withrawn everyone should meet together and continue to meet together into infinity regardless of discipline.

[1] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-05-2007 at 08:40 PM • top

That is one exceedingly tiny needle Dr. Radner is attempting to thread. Not sure my eyesight is sharp enough to tell if he succeeded.

[2] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-05-2007 at 08:49 PM • top

Much happened between Nicea and Constantinople. Contrary to *The da Vinci Code*, Constantine sided with the Arians (He decidedly did not impose Jesus’ divinity on Christianity, eventually being baptized by an Arian bishop.) The party of Athanasius won the battle but nearly lost the war.

Athanasius fought the war over the rest of his life, and did not live to see his side victorious. [There is a great story about Athansius seeking an audience with the emperor. The emperor sand bagged him, so Athansius waited along the route he knew the emperor used and jumped out and grabbed the horses and demanded the emperor’s attention]

There is the view point that TEC inc. has reached the point of no return and it is counciled that we should leave the sinking ship. “What would Athanasius do?” I don’t believe he would ever give up.

You could argue that Athanasius had no where else to go. He didn’t have CANA or AmiA, Networks, GS primates, “eastern Orthodoxy”, or the RCC. He “had” to stay. We have alternatives. We can save our children from the ravages of heresy. We can “come out from among them.”

WWAD?

He’d stay and fight.

[3] Posted by ursus on 06-05-2007 at 09:07 PM • top

“Now it is: Even if they [the Lambeth invitations] aren’t withdrawn everyone should meet together and continue to meet together into infinity regardless of discipline.”  That, dear Matt, is just a silly statement, having nothing to do with what I actually argued and little to do with what anybody (except perhaps Desmond Tutu) has ever argued.  What I have argued, instead, is that the authority of a council depends on the charismatic character of those attending – not all, necessarily, but those whose will prevails both at the council and over time – those who have the will to be present and present the truth in the power of the Spirit. I also argued that discipline is, in my mind, needed in the case of Lambeth, but that my opinion in this and in any conciliar case is not determining (nor is yours), and that I don’t (and you don’t) need to fret over whether our opinions are followed or not in this or in any case.  The Holy Spirit will direct the value of a council, and will uphold the faithful servants of Our Lord. I hope that the issue of discipline is indeed taken up and pursued in this case.  But there are reasons why in this, or in any case, it might not be, and these reasons might be better or worse, but they are not based on some absolute principle. We can urge our opinions, and it is important that we do.  But the conciliar character of the Church demands, not that we follow our individual and absolutist principles, but that we work together for the best and most prudent discernment of how to gather, pray, and decide according to the will of God.  And about prudence and discernment, there will be a variety of opinions.  In the end, following the “order” of the Church is itself a faithful thing to do, given the uncertainties and fallibilities of those (like us) who feel strongly.  It is faithful if and when it is done in the confidence of the Holy Spirit’s ordering of our offerings.  “Infinity”?  “Regardless”?  Try again.

[4] Posted by Ephraim Radner on 06-05-2007 at 09:14 PM • top

I think Dr. Radner is answering questions no one is asking.  I’m more than happy to agree with all of his points—but that is not the question that people like me are asking.

The question is . . . since Lambeth invitations are the means by which it is proclaimed that bishops are in communion with Canterbury [the means of discipline] . . . and since the Windsor Process is now ongoing for more than three years . . . if the Windsor Process is proven to be the delaying tactic and fraud that I have long suspected it of being by there being no consequences for the defiance of it . . . than why should anyone desire further participation in other processes, such as the “Covenant Process”?

That is the point of the uproar over the Lambeth invitations . . .not the questions about “whether it is a council” or “is it possible to sit in a council with heretics”—sure it is possible!  But the question is . . . who cares, if the “Windsor Process” was actually a charlatan.

Sorry, but if there is no discipline for the Communion from the past four years of effort, all the way up until Lambeth 08, then I will recognize the truth.  The Anglican Communion will not discipline itself and therefore, I want no part of it.

I’m not in this for decades while the AC dithers about establishing its identity, boundaries, order, and discipline.  No discipline merely means that the “Windsor Process”—about which so much time, energy, and words has been spent—has been a simple fraud, and I won’t be fooled again.

[5] Posted by Sarah on 06-05-2007 at 09:15 PM • top

Yes he succeeded although the rend in the fabric is a bit more than the amount of thread he has available for mending.  Its evident his writing is both thought provoking and plainly provoking.

[6] Posted by richardc on 06-05-2007 at 09:19 PM • top

Sarah,

I am not being mean, just trying to be clever…
When you say “I won’t be fooled again,” my first thought is
“The dwarves are for the dwarves…”

[7] Posted by ursus on 06-05-2007 at 09:23 PM • top

“The Holy Spirit will direct the value of a council, and will uphold the faithful servants of Our Lord.” Unfortunately, it might not be the Holy Spirit directing the value of the council just as the Holy Spirit is not currently directing the value of the TEc.

A not unlikely scenario: The Americans all show up including VGR who is “humiliated” by being invited as a mere guest. The media would have a a field day. VGR would daily cry about his victim-ness and the media would lap it up. He would bring his newly unionized partner. One can imagine the photo-ops for the happy couple. Should the bishops of Uganda (or any other Christian delegation) participate in such a farce? A resounding no!

[8] Posted by rob-roy on 06-05-2007 at 09:38 PM • top

RE: “I am not being mean, just trying to be clever…
When you say “I won’t be fooled again,” my first thought is
“The dwarves are for the dwarves…”

Yes . . . it’s a great line.  ; > )

And great scenes. 

Certainly Christians have to be careful to distinguish between the refusal to see the truth—and rank stupidity in defiance of all evidence to the contrary, which is also refusal to see the truth.

And it’s hard sometimes.  But it’s up to individuals to make those decisions ultimately.  Not being Roman Catholic, I am all for private judgement.  At the end of the day, every human being on earth has to produce a private judgement about to what authority they will submit. 

If the Anglican Communion cannot discipline itself . . . then Anglicanism will fall in my opinion, and I will be gone.

Until that point, there’s a lot of work to do. 

But . . . I’m watching . . . and I intend, to the best of my ability and with God’s help, to see the truth.

[9] Posted by Sarah on 06-05-2007 at 09:41 PM • top

Sarah and Ursus, I thought of “The Who” with loud electric guitars in the background:

I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
We don’t get fooled again
No, no!

[10] Posted by rob-roy on 06-05-2007 at 09:43 PM • top

You might be interested in this piece:
The Inconvenient Conscience
by George Cardinal Pell
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=195&var_recherche=conscience
Its about John Henry Newman’s view of conscience. It is very interesting how Newman weaved the personal, the corporate, and the Holy Spirit together to paint a picture of conscience that neither gives in to individualism nor quashes the individual.

cheers!

[11] Posted by ursus on 06-05-2007 at 09:52 PM • top

Dr Radner makes too grand an assumption about the next Lambeth, if the TEC HoB and others of like mind and allegiance attend:

Only the Holy Spirit rules on a council!

If the American HoB attends Lambeth there will be major contention between the rule of the Holy Spirit and the rule of the spirit of this age. Holding a meeting (not a church “council”) with numerous bishops who not only disregard and repudiate previous Lambeth resolutions, but who disregard and even repudiate the major foundations of the Christian faith would be worse than pointless. It would be damaging. It would imply to the world and to the rest of the church world-wide that TEC and orthodox Anglicans are one body. We are not. We do not have differences to iron out. We have two religions, one based on the faith once received and the other based on a faith invented out of the current whims of a vocal portion of today’s culture.

[12] Posted by Bill Cool on 06-05-2007 at 10:33 PM • top

Mr Cool (not just picking on you),
You missed Dr Radner’s point!  The religion of Arius was entirely different than that of the homoousians…just as foreign as that of KJS & co.  Once the council of Nicaea met and the bishops heard Arius’ (by then very few) supporters refuse the homoousion, they freaked out and hurriedly condemned him.  Let all the bishops get together at Lambeth and work it out.  It’s not going to be pretty, but we have to have faith it will get worked out.  If so many hadn’t left ECUSA beginning in the 70’s we might not be in the situation we are today.  We ought to learn from history, as Dr Radner is trying to remind us.  Between the councils of Nicaea (325) and the final defeat of the Arians at Constantinople (381), we have 56 years, not counting all Arius’ years of activism prior to Nicaea, and the Arian remnants that continued for years after 381.  We haven’t been putting up with this mess for nearly as long, and we’ve far more faithful men than Athanasius and the Cappadocians had in their corner.  And re: the Holy Spirit vs the spirit of this world, I like those odds. cool smirk
But if nothing happens at Lambeth, I’ll admit, the situation looks pretty dire.  Not hopeless, but not good.  The fact that we’ve been in schism with Rome for hundreds of years (not to mention the Eastern churches) makes us considerably weak, and that makes anything possible.  The gates of hell will never overcome the Church, but nobody said it won’t get the better of part of it!
In sum…be patient!  All things are possible with God.  Let’s see what the bishops come up with.

[13] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-05-2007 at 11:11 PM • top

Didn’t we just read the other day (if I’m on the right year)...

“We have heard with our ears, O God, our forefathers have told us, the deeds you did in their days, in the days of old…For they did not take the land by their sword, nor did their arm win the victory for them; but your right hand, your arm, and the light of your countenance, because you favored them…Through you we pushed back our adversaries; through your Name we trampled on those who rose up against us.  For I do not rely on my bow, and my sword does not give me the victory.  Surely, you gave us victory over our adversaries and put those who hate us to shame…Every day we gloried in God, and we will praise your name forever.

Nevertheless, you have rejected us and humbled us and do not go forth with our armies, you have made us fall back before our adversary, and our enemies have plundered us.  You have made us like sheep to be eaten and have scattered us among the nations…My humiliation is daily before me, and shame has covered my face…

All this has come upon us; yet we have not forgotten you, nor have we betrayed your covenant.  Our heart never turned back, nor did our footsteps stray from your path; though you thrust us down into a place of misery, and covered us over with deep darkness…

Indeed, for your sake we are killed all the day long;
we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Awake, O Lord! why are you sleeping?
Arise! do not reject us for ever….
We sink down into the dust;
our body cleaves to the ground.
Rise up, and help us,
and save us, for the sake of your steadfast love.”
Psalm 44

[14] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-05-2007 at 11:46 PM • top

In response to the Seitz column, I wondered if there were any circumstances in which ACI would not counsel attendance at Lambeth.  This column suggests not. 

Theoretically, TEC could continue its slide into apostasy, lawsuits continue unabated and openly disobedient Priests and Bishops remain in positions of authority.  Souls could be lost by the thousands, either in the pews through false teaching or because the Great Commission is replaced by the false promise of the Millennium Development Goals.  Commitments such as the Communique are disregarded. Yet, Lambeth should go forward as planned because we should presume, despite all of indicators to the contrary, that the Holy Spirit will direct its outcome. 

Perhaps, for many of the same reasons, I should return to TEC and go back to TEC’s General Convention and Diocesan meetings.  Perhaps I should even seek out and join a revisionist church in New Jersey, safe in the knowledge that the Holy Spirit must working through its Vestry and Priest.  After all, its a duly authorized church.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is simply doing a new thing through these venerable institutions.

Sorry, but I have children and must raise them in an environment that is conducive to their long-term spiritual health.  Church is our primary place of worship, nourishment and Christian service.

I am not a theologian, but I know a little about addiction, and attending Lambeth under the current circumstances comes mighty close to making Primates TEC’s “enablers”.  When family members or friends enable addicts, they prevent them from experiencing the consequences of their own actions. They discourage them from learning from their own mistakes. This, in turn, prevents them from realizing they have a problem.

It pains me to say this as someone committed to a new Province, but I would much rather see a young family move to a faithful non-Anglican church than to remain in TEC based on the mistaken belief that the Holy Spirit is in control of a guiding body, such as TEC’s General Convention or a local Diocese, that is clearly as a matter of policy acting contrary to God’s Word as revealed in Holy Scripture.

[15] Posted by Going Home on 06-06-2007 at 12:57 AM • top

If so many hadn’t left ECUSA beginning in the 70’s we might not be in the situation we are today.

This is just silly. One of the burdens under which the Continuing church movement has labored is that so many refused to see the writing on the wall and leave, but stayed within PECUSA and were whittled and persecuted away. Check out the history of the Episcopal Synod—from how it went from arguing to “we’ll fight and turn in around from within” to begging to be allowed to stay to finally (what few remnants were left) finally facing facts and being the seed of the AMiA. I.e. they had success only once they, too, had escaped PECUSA.

It really would be much more fair to say that Anglicanism wouldn’t be in such bad shape in the U.S. if more people had shared the courage and the foresight of the Continuers back in the 70s and left with and supported genuine orthodox Anglicanism back then, rather than pouring out their time, treasure and talent into the vain and corrupting attempt to reform PECUSA from within.

pax,
LP

[16] Posted by LP on 06-06-2007 at 01:13 AM • top

There’s one fundamental flaw with Radner’s thoughtful reflections in looking at conciliar history.

The early church took councils seriously.

TEc does not.

.

++Akinola is exactly right in observing that the lack of discipline or follow-through on censuring TEc means that Lambeth is nothing but a jamboree, and that its rulings will matter not one whit.

Regardless of what happens there—even if the Biblical voices were to be united in condemnation of TEc’s blatant rejection of Christian theology and morality—TEc will simply go off and do its own thing. Such contempt has been quite clear in its reaction to the Anglican Communion over the past decades.

Its bishops will not give the rulings of Lambeth any more respect than it gives those of the Ecumenical Councils—i.e. none—unlike the bishops of the early church who actually took such councils, and their authority, seriously.

.

Radner+‘s analysis makes sense if bishops are acting in good faith.

But TEc bishops are not acting in good faith. Indeed, many of them are acting in apostate faith, or no faith at all—pushing their postmodern pansexual agenda and denying basic Christian orthodoxy far more than the Arians or homoiousions did. (Hec, the latter heretics, at least, agreed that Jesus was divine and simply were arguing over how His divinity related to the Father’s. Would that all TEc bishops were even _that_ close to orthodox belief!)

.

Radner+‘s reflections are interesting and thought provoking, especially to those who take patristic history & practice seriously. But Lambeth is no Nicaea or Constantinople - it gives non-binding fraternal advice, not binding church-wide rulings. Nor will the TEc bishops attending it give its advice any authority or respect, as has been shown by its contempt for such meetings in the past - unlike the actual respect even the “losing” bishops gave the rulings of Nicaea and Constantinople.

So while Radner+‘s historical observations may be thought-provoking, they are also irrelevant to Lambeth, because neither the councils nor the bishops are sufficiently similar for the analogy to work.

pax,
LP

[17] Posted by LP on 06-06-2007 at 01:26 AM • top

Dr. Radner, actually you misunderstood my comment. I was not responding to the content of your argument, to which I plan to respond later, but to the effect or resulting impotence if your argument is agreed with by a majority of orthodox leaders.

[18] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 02:54 AM • top

As always Fr Radner has much to say that is worth considering.

(Correct thread this time!)

[19] Posted by Martin Reynolds on 06-06-2007 at 03:55 AM • top

One huge difference between Councils of the past and Lambeth ‘08 is that in the distant past communication was very slow. As a result, once people were physically together, everyone was truly hearing the other participants for the first time. As a result, there was opportunity to be swayed by discussion perhaps not previously considered.

In this day and age of instant communications, we know what each other has to say on the issue. We know that the HOB has rejected the communique. We know that Schori has said that she is not changing direction, and that she believes that she is being “prophetic”.

Yes, meetings can sometimes produce surprising results, ie the communique. However, the fundamental position of TEC will not change as a result of Lambeth. The only hope for orthodox Anglicans in the US is a second province, recognized by the ABC and the primates. If this is not possible, then it is time, past time perhaps, to move on.

[20] Posted by BillS on 06-06-2007 at 04:03 AM • top

With regard to the substance of your points, in short, I do believe that the scriptures are clear with regard to the relationships within the Godhead and the dual natures of Christ, and that clarity alone ought to have been enough to keep Arius et al off the invitation list. I notice in this regard that your argument rests almost exclusively on what the Church has done and not on what the scriptures call the Church to do.

But even with regard to what the Church has done, your argument is a stretch. It rests on a rather weak “this is that” assertion when, in fact, “this” Lambeth is not like that “Nicea”.

The difference is fairly obvious. The particular false teaching with regarding human sexuality is not only clearly defined in the scriptures but it has been the decided universal teaching of the Church not for 90 years or for 100 years or even for 1000 years but from the beginning of the Church 2000 years ago…sorry my mistake…not just 2000 years but for over 4000 years.

It is not as if TEC is raising some serious question with which the Church has yet to deal or even with which she has dealt in the last century.

Moreover, some of the bishops who will attend embrace heresies as ancient or more so than that of Arius. If Marcion or Pelagius or Arius were alve today, would you council the church to invite them or stand for their invitation?

It seems that you deal with Nicea and Constantinople and Lambeth in a vacuum without much serious consideration of subsequent or prior developments.

In short, “This” is not “that”. Not even “like” it.

Again, as to the results of Dr. Radner’s argument, I would encourage those living in Network dioceses, especially if led by communion conservative bishops, to show this paper to your leaders or send it to them and ask whether they agree. It might be good to know long term purposes if possible.

[21] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 04:10 AM • top

As far as I can see, Matt’s reaction is on the level of “I don’t want Lambeth to be read in terms analagous to Nicea or Constantinople—i.e. as a council of the Church—and therefore I shall insist that it isn’t.”  My point is that it could be seen as such, in the light of the Holy Spirit’s calling and promise. It really is a question of what one wants. And why would one wish it were otherwise, except that one simply doesn’t want to be seen with the likes of TEC bishops?  What I don’t get is why an overwhelming majority of traditional bishops from around the world should worry about being at a meeting of prayer and counsel, at which a puny handful of marginal dissidents from some confused and tiny Western churches is also present?  Let Lambeth 2008 finish what Lambeth 1998 began.  Arguments to the effect of “but TEC hasn’t listened and cannot be trusted” are all true!  I have made them ad nauseum along with the rest of everyone on this blog. But so what?  Nigeria, Uganda, and so on all have the numbers on their side by a long shot.  Let us then see the Spirit uphold their witness.  Or do we doubt that too?

[22] Posted by Ephraim Radner on 06-06-2007 at 05:16 AM • top

“The Dwarves are for the Dwarves” - excellent LOL!

What is the ABC up to?  Well who knows, he has limited actual power in many areas other than to cajole, encourage and chair.  Such power as he has such as the power to invite, he is using effectively by stringing out the invites with provisos and the open question of withdrawal.  Will he use it?  Is there a cunning plan?  He is off on retreat so don’t expect to hear much from him until September.

Don’t know, however the current position is that parties have been put in a position to disinvite themselves.

One should not underestimate the shock the Communique represents to TEC or the pressure it provides.  There is still the deadline for a response, although given the unfortunate parsing, still continuing such as that of Bishop Robinson above, one suspects that credibility is thin, whatever reply the HOB gives.  The process initiated by the primates is still there and in process.

Re. Lambeth however, if it had been Athenasius, would he have turned down an invite and the opportunity to put his case bravely on each and every occassion he could?  A few here have been in the military.  My view fwiw is that one should fight one’s corner on every occassion, not leaving the field to the opposition and not closing off any avenue.

[23] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 06-06-2007 at 05:19 AM • top

Hadn’t seen the prior two posts, bit out of my league here.

[24] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 06-06-2007 at 05:21 AM • top

My post on this at T19
It is wrong to think orthodox bishops can postpone TEC discipline until some new Lambeth resolution or Covenant process. While Lambeth can be what it wants to be, it would no longer be an instrument of communion, but of disunion if TEC is given full status of association. So egregious are TEC’s unrepentant sins, that it has become a gospel imperative for disassocition to occur (as in yesterday). There must be discipline/disassociation before Lambeth deliberations, at least in reducing TEC bishops to observer status. If Rowan “wins” in his desire to postpone TEC discipline until the covenant process, everyone loses. I agree with the mend-the-net Primates, that it is impossible for Christian bishops to honorably associate with TEC as a good-standing equal—as if it were not a sinful Province that is stiff-necked in its unrepentance.

[25] Posted by alfonso on 06-06-2007 at 05:25 AM • top

Perhaps, then, it is indeed time for the Global South and those who either are or wish to be associated with them to break off and form their own communion.  It will need to be called by a name other than “Anglican” which I think, for many, is a cross too weighty to bear.  But the ABC and the TEC are not going to give up the title.  Some of the churches in certain states of TEC will have to give up their property and that, too, will be a cross too weighty for some to bear.  But if Radner’s theory holds, and if the kind of discipline that many seek is not to be found, then why, pray God, don’t they just break off and start anew?  Is the trademark “Anglican” so precious and dear?

[26] Posted by Vintner on 06-06-2007 at 05:50 AM • top

Dr. Radner, it really doesn’t matter what “Matt wants” or even what Dr. Radner says “could be seen”. Lambeth is not “what one wants it to be” even if seen through the pneumatic lens.

As for this question:

“And why would one wish it were otherwise, except that one simply doesn’t want to be seen with the likes of TEC bishops?”

Rather than suggesting some snobbish pharisaism on the part of those who will not attend, why not attempt to see this through the pnuematic lens? Perhaps they might see such attendance as a violation of the scriptures. It is not so much the desire not to be seen with heretics, but the desire to uphold biblical mandates with regard to the treatement of heretics in the Church. This is what I argued in my piece “Hospitality and Heretics”

Lambeth is a gathering of Anglican bishops (not, incidentally, called by an emperor unbound to accept the council of Alexandria) but by the Archbishop of Canterbury himself.

A better analogy would be St. Alexander, after hosting the Alexandrian council which ruled on the Arian question and excommunicated Arius, turning around and inviting Arius back again to another council to address the same question with Arius himself on the invitation list. It would not at all have been suprising in such circumstances if orthodox bishops decided not to attend.

If Lambeth were called by an emperor, I would perhaps see the merit in attending to defend orthodoxy. But it is not. It is a purely ecclesial council hosted by the primate of the Anglican Communion who, along with the rest of the bishops and primates of the Communion have already ruled on this question.

Perhaps the reason the other primates will not attend is , in addition to the biblical reasons already noted, precisely for that reason? This is something of a betrayal of earlier decisions and meetings. The Windsor process, in light of these invitations, is a joke…a very bad and tragic joke at the expense of the Communion itself.

[27] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 05:57 AM • top

Thank you to Matt Kennedy, Ephraim Radner, and Christopher Seitz for willingly engaging in these conversation for the last few days.  I think Ephraim’s reading of the treatment of heretics at councils may be a little too neat.  For example, at the Council of Ephesus, Nestorius was present, but not as a participant.  As J. McGuckin notes in the introduction to his translation of Cyil of Alexandria’s On The Unity of Christ,  “When Nestorius arrived . . . he was treated by the bishops already in attendance as an excommunicate. . . . [T]he other bishops . . . would not allow him to function in any of the churches until his case had been heard and adjudicated in the new synod.”  When Nestorius’s allies from Syria were delayed in coming, the Council held its meeting without them.  The condemnation of Nestorius was straightforward.  His works as well as Cyril’s were read out to the bishops and, by acclamation, Nestorius was condemned and excommunicated on the spot.

If there was even the remote possibility of something like this happening at Lambeth, I would be heartened.

Frankly, I have reached the point where I no longer have any confidence in the integrity of Rowan Williams as an honest broker in this process.  My concerns were first raised when he appointed Archbishop Carnley as head of the Panel of Reference, and the POR simply refused to do the job the Primates had asked it to do.  When Williams hand-picked committee issued its report at Dar Es Salaam, stating that TEC at GC 2006 had satisfactorily fulfilled the requests of the Windsor Report, I was nothing short of flabbergasted. RW’s issuing of Lambeth invitations in advance of the Sept 30 deadline, within months of the American HOB’s refusing every demand of the Dar Es Salaam Communique, and denying any authority of the Anglican Communion over TEC (on the basis of our “unique polity”) seems like nothing less than collusion, and a deliberate thwarting of the Primates.

In light of Tanzania, RW’s next step was clear.  He needed to work with the Windsor bishops to put in place the Primatial Vicar and Council asked for at Dar Es Salaam, with or without TEC’s cooperation.  Instead, he rewarded the open defiance of the TEC bishops with invitations to Lambeth, in advance of the Sept 30 deadline, and has done nothing about the requests of the Dar Es Salaam Communique.  If anyone should feel betrayed, I would think it would be the Windsor bishops.

Nonetheless, I think it important that all bishops show up to Lambeth, including the Global South.  I think it likely that unless a Global South coup takes place at Lambeth, the future of the Communion is doomed.

But if my pessimism turns out to be entirely unfounded, I will rejoice.

[28] Posted by William Witt on 06-06-2007 at 06:15 AM • top

Matt and William, based on your two most recent posts, do you therefore find yourself in agreement with my notion that we may indeed see a split in the near future with Anglicans (ABC & TEC) on one side and the Global South et. al. on the other, the latter going by a new name?  Your comments seems to ratify my opinion.

[29] Posted by Vintner on 06-06-2007 at 06:19 AM • top

It’s fine for Lambeth to be a “council of the Anglican Communion”.

It’s fine for orthodox bishops to be with heretics at such a council. 

That’s never been my concern.

But since—so far—the Anglican Communion does not enforce its judgements that are made at Lambeth, through the Windsor Process, at Dromantine, and Dar Es Salaam . . . through the ABC, the Primates, and at Lambeth . . . and since it’s not legislative [according to the ABC] or binding . . . I’m not certain it really matters that Lambeth is a “council of the Anglican Communion.”

I’ll say this—which I’ve said nearly the whole time . . . if Primates are withdrawing from the “councils of the Anglican Communion” then I hope that they will write a formal letter of withdrawal from the Anglican Communion.  If Nigeria and Uganda do not attend Lambeth—thus basically leaving the communion to its fate at that meeting—then I hope that they move on and establish their own communion.

I don’t think there should be half-measures or pretend games, or simply “withdrawal from one meeting temporarily as a symbol”.

Either the Communion is defended at all points, or the Communion is surrendered.

[30] Posted by Sarah on 06-06-2007 at 06:23 AM • top

Yes Sarah, I completely agree with your last three paragraphs. No half measures.

Isn’t it nice when we can be on the same side of something?

[31] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 06:26 AM • top

Yes it is, Matt.

Although I have to say . . . the only reason I debate with most of the Christians on this board that I do [and vigorously] is because we agree on so much. 

I don’t spend much time at all debating with those who do not believe the gospel . . . though many of them are great people . . . we just don’t agree on enough to actually debate because we don’t have the same foundational worldview and such debate requires major surgery.

So in your case, for instance, I agree with so much, that the parts that I do not agree with stand out like cacti in a desert, so to speak.

I think that’s one reason why I get more fired up when I’m debating with people of like mind.  . . . . Because . . . we’re of like mind except on a few small points.  I feel that way about Dr. Radner as well, and mean no harm to either of you when I do this sort of “light skirmishing” . . .

; > )

[32] Posted by Sarah on 06-06-2007 at 06:40 AM • top

Can I join the mutual admiration society?  Is there an application form?

[33] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 06-06-2007 at 06:44 AM • top

RE: “Nestorius was condemned and excommunicated on the spot.”

I’m curious William Witt.  If the Lambeth Meeting is a “council of the Anglican Communion” and there are no disciplinary options at all [which there aren’t] other than non-invitation to Lambeth . . . then why on earth is it “important that all bishops show up to Lambeth, including the Global South”.

Even if there were such a “coup” it would be meaningless.  Rowan Williams is the ABC.  He issues invitations.  All who are in communion with him are in the Anglican Communion.  He decides.

With that being the case . . . it is rapidly appearing that the Anglican Communion is not capable of disciplining itself.

And if that is true, then I have no interest in being a part of the Anglican Communion, but will instead move on to the EPC or something similar.

So again .  . . I honestly don’t understand what the point would be of having any sort of “coup” or whatever anyway, at Lambeth.  The effect would be instantly “dull and void” anyway—because Lambeth is not a disciplinary unit, neither is the Primates Meeting. 

Rowan Williams is the disciplinary unit—by not issuing invitations to Lambeth.  All Rowan would have to do is issue invitations in 2015 to the next Lambeth Meeting in 2016. 

And I have no doubt that he would do so.  Or his successor.

[34] Posted by Sarah on 06-06-2007 at 06:48 AM • top

Dear William

Honestly, we still believe the scenario you describe above as workable and likely. +RDW is a Primate amongst Primates in the context of the communique; the Primates are not just ‘out there’ en masse, ready for mobilising today or tomorrow, as you know; there will need to be a 30 Sept deadline and consequences, and then they can be followed up on; we are pressing for that; it has been stated that there may need to be a new PV and PC schemes; fine—but, I doubt the entire thing will just be dropped tout court. There must be a way, through the Instruments, to support ‘CA principled Bishops and their peopl’ and force the rest of TEC HOB to choose. The only challenge to that is the pulling out of key Primates and the collapse of Communion into federal franchises of various stripe, before these things run their proper course. Do the Windsor Bishops (w/ CA Principles) feel let down? I will not speak to that, except to say that they have communicated with +RDW via a steering committee of MacPherson, Howe, Stanton, Salmon, Steenson, Lilliebridge and Wimberly (I believe I have the list right). I am personally grateful for this kind of senior, mature leadership. It is not in the public domain what the ongoing character of those communications mean/portend.
It may be that the TEC HOB feels rewarded and invited to Lambeth; I am not so sure they should be, if they are (some are obviously outraged re: VGR; I believe +RDW will take counsel appropriately after 30 September, when his leave is over, and the invitation list will reflect realities based upon the notes he takes when he visits and the counsel he takes with his fellow Primates.

Radner says as much when he writes:

At the same time, the Archbishop can and should integrate, as far as possible and in as prudent a way possible, his decisions about all this with the other representative councils of the Communion.  Our current Archbishop has made it clear that he views his role as an “instrument” and “focus” of unity to be properly exercised within the college of primates especially.  Should the prudential concerns of his invitations demand it, he should rightly submit his invitations to the common counsel of his colleagues.  And they indeed demand it, as I see it, in light of the very concrete concerns articulated by the primates in their last meeting, concerns about TEC and the Communion that impinge directly on the Lambeth Conference’s ability to strengthen our common life and witness.

My own view (and that of others) has long been that TEC’s behavior has been so brazenly destructive of the Communion’s conciliar life on a number of levels, that the entire American church’s college of bishops should not be invited to Lambeth at all.  Without some major, formal, and agreed recommitment to the character of conciliar life, TEC’s participation in the Communion’s gathering threatens to be subversive, not edifying, inevitably confusing, not clarifying. The Anglican Communion is not “the Catholic Church” tout court, by a long shot, and requires a kind of conserving energy that goes beyond whole-sale pneumatic openness-within-order. Individual TEC bishops might, if they so chose, petition Canterbury and the primates for a seat at Lambeth on the basis of affirming a commitment to the principles the primates themselves laid out in their recent Communiqué (the “Camp Allen Principles”) – this may already be implied in Canterbury’s current invitation, although this is not wholly clear—or at least a commitment to previous Lambeth resolutions, whose imposing legitimacy has now been clearly affirmed by the interlocking agreement of other Anglican Communion synods.
**
Yours in Christ—C Seitz

[35] Posted by zebra on 06-06-2007 at 06:50 AM • top

So if Bishop Robinson isn’t invited, does that mean that the diocese of NH is not part of the Anglican Communion?  Can one diocese of a particular province be “in” while another is “out?”  Just how exactly are the good people of any particular diocese “in” the AC?  Did our Presiding Bishop get invited despite the fact that she is not a diocesan bishop?  If she is invited, are all dioceses of TEC therefore “in” by virtual representation?  Do any of these questions really matter?

[36] Posted by Widening Gyre on 06-06-2007 at 07:00 AM • top

WG,

There’s no doubt that the non-invitation to Bishop Robinson has pretty serious implications—precisely along the lines of the non-invitation to Bishop Minns.  Both consecrations were “valid” but neither are recognized as in communion.

I covered this with more detail in this article here . . .

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/3096/

[37] Posted by Sarah on 06-06-2007 at 07:05 AM • top

“The Conference is a place where our experience of living out God’s mission can be shared…it is a place where we can try and get more clarity about the limits of our diversity and the means of deepening our Communion…  It is an occasion when the Archbishop of Canterbury exercises his privilege of calling his colleagues together, not to legislate but to discover and define something more about our common identity through prayer, listening to God’s Word and shared reflection. It is an occasion to rediscover the reality of the Church itself as a worldwide community united by the call and grace of Christ.

But the Lambeth Conference has no ‘constitution’ or formal powers; it is not a formal Synod or Council of the bishops of the Communion, which would require us to be absolutely clear about the standing of all the participants.”

Rowan Williams, from the Lambeth invitation.

Based on the above, I suppose Lambeth could be a council, but someone needs to convince the ABC first. 

IMHO, a risk is that if (i) some provinces do not attend giving reappraising attendees greater representation and (ii) Rowan Williams flip flops on the above position, then hey presto, Lambeth becomes legislative in the wrong way - but that would simply be adding chocolate sprinkles to the ice cream sundae we call schism.

FWIW, aside from appearing to have misplaced the communique from DES while drafting the Lambeth invitation list, Rowan Williams’ statement above seems to place greater legislative or conciliar weight with the Primates.

[38] Posted by tired on 06-06-2007 at 07:07 AM • top

Jeremy B - you said:

Mr Cool (not just picking on you),
You missed Dr Radner’s point!

 

I did not miss his point, I dismissed it:

a meeting (not a church “council”)

—perhaps too briefly. Others in later comments have developed differences between Nicea and Lambeth more effectively.

I have in the past found much of the writing coming from the ACI in theology and the history of the church helpful, but at least in its more recent operational recommendations (the “what should we do?”, not merely the “what do we and have we believed as a church?”), these recommendations seem to come from a parallel universe that also happens to have something called the Anglican Communion.

However this ACI parallel universe does not seem to have souls in mortal danger, children being raised in parishes under the control of bishops who by their actions and statements do not appear to be Christian, dioceses and parishes being taken to court to evict them from their property, and priests being inhibited and removed for spurious reasons. In addition, this parallel ACI universe seems to have eternity in which to adjust the behavior (and presumably the beliefs) of whatever errant leaders this parallel Anglican Communion happens to have.

This ACI view of operational reality does not seem to fit the facts of the Anglican Communion that I see really exists today.

[39] Posted by Bill Cool on 06-06-2007 at 07:16 AM • top

With regard to the substance of your points, in short, I do believe that the scriptures are clear with regard to the relationships within the Godhead and the dual natures of Christ, and that clarity alone ought to have been enough to keep Arius et al off the invitation list.

Wow.

Matt’s increasingly strained objections to the ACI have now run to the absurd. Let it go on record that one +Matt Kennedy has now objected to the conciliar makeup of Nicea. Let’s ponder this a while in silence.


(pause)

...um…

Wow.

I’ll leave it to more learned folks than myself (Dr. Tighe perhaps?) to pontificate on whether we’d even have a Creed had not Arius been refuted to his face, in the first full Ecumenical Council of the Church, but the thought that such a Superior Principled Pronouncement would come from someone who just months ago participated and voted at General Convention ‘06 is too rich for words.

[40] Posted by Dave on 06-06-2007 at 07:53 AM • top

No, Dave, your strained restatement of my position is absurd. I have no idea where you got this:

” Let it go on record that one +Matt Kennedy has now objected to the conciliar makeup of Nicea.”

From this:

“With regard to the substance of your points, in short, I do believe that the scriptures are clear with regard to the relationships within the Godhead and the dual natures of Christ, and that clarity alone ought to have been enough to keep Arius et al off the invitation list.”

Where on earth do you see me attacking Nicea? I was attacking Arius.

Do you know anything about Nicea? Do you know who issued the invitations? It was not the Church. It was not Sylvestre though he may have participated in the decision, it was Emperor Constantine.

So, no I was not condemning the Church for inviting Arius. THe Church did not invite him. I was simply saying that there is ample reason, given the NT for his disinvitation.

Arius had already been pronouned a heretic at the council Alexandria, 320.

Take a little time to think before posting.

This applies even more to your last paragraph. You really need to pay more attention. I was not and was not a deputy or voting member of Gen Con. I did not “participate” in anyway.

Rich indeed.

[41] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 08:04 AM • top

Great essay.  He’s convinced me.

At the same time, Sarah is absolutely right – Rowan Williams’ attempt to deep-six any notion of Lambeth’s conciliarity has annoyed me, but that isn’t the central issue; it’s discipline.

Nicaea and subsequent actions were all about reaching a conclusion that Arianism was a false teaching and would be definitively declared as such, with consequences.  The goal of the Orthodox was not to comprehend a via media between Arianism and the Gospel.  That appears to be the goal of Lambeth’s convener, and the “Arian party” would like to replace in its entirety the Apostolic teaching with heresy.  Just give us 50 years, they say.

[42] Posted by Phil on 06-06-2007 at 08:06 AM • top

By the way. I am not a bishop. The + if you use it goes after not before the name

[43] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 08:06 AM • top

Just musing, but can you imagine Pope Benedict putting up with this stuff for one minute, or JohnPaulthroughRatzinger for that matter.  No wonder William Buckley always called the Anglican Church “the withered daughter of Rome.”

[44] Posted by Pilgrim on 06-06-2007 at 08:08 AM • top

Mr Cool,

Fair enough.  But I still think Radner’s point could apply…in his parallel universe (and ours), all those things were true during the Arian controversy as well.  My whole point was, let’s wait and see.  Let the conference happen before we come to too many conclusions, that’s all.  I still remember very clearly how so many people were shocked by the statement produced at Dar Es Salaam, at how good it was.
Of course Nicaea and Lambeth aren’t the same.  But to suggest we can’t take lessons learned at one and apply them to the other is simply ridiculous.  I’m not suggesting we wait 50 years to resolve this.  I’m just saying, when looked at from a different light, the length and severity of our struggle might not look as bad as what others have suffered, and a little historical perspective might fortify us with patience and courage.

+Matt, with all due respect and echoing Sarah’s words of love, the emperor got involved so much in large part because the bishops simply were unable to get together work it out on their own.  He had to act like a parent, in many ways, sticking a bunch of bishops in a room until they were forced to work out their problems and make a decision.  The peace of his empire demanded unity in the church, hence the church councils.  Notice, all the Ecumenical Councils were called by Emperors.  Perhaps such a mandate would be helpful today!

LC, I’m not referring to AMiA or CANA.  The bewildering variety of “continuing” Anglican groups who are not unified in one body and out of communion with Canterbury or an AC Primate is embarrassing and shameful, seems to me.  Schism is so easy compared to the alternative.

Suffering for the Gospel is hardly failure.  In fact, I’m tempted to say it’s the very essence of the Christian life.

My view fwiw is that one should fight one’s corner on every occasion, not leaving the field to the opposition and not closing off any avenue.

Pageantmaster, I agree wholeheartedly.  I think the character and nature of TEC and the CofE (not to mention the nature of our discussion) would be much different today if more “orthodox” had decided to stay and be a witness (martyr), instead of splintering off or joining Rome.  I can’t demand others suffer, but I can suffer and invite others to join me.

Let us then see the Spirit uphold their witness.  Or do we doubt that too?

Dr Radner, I’m with you.

[45] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-06-2007 at 08:15 AM • top

Dr Radner,
I am sure your scholarship is impeccable, but I think you, like a lot of academics, are missing the reality of the immediate.  While you and others keep CLC in an indefinate holding pattern (I am sure +O’Neil approves) our orthodox parishes are bleeding members daily.  The reality is that there will soon be no orthodox left in the Anglican Communion to care.

[46] Posted by Elizabeth on 06-06-2007 at 08:17 AM • top

Oops, sorry, Matt+.

[47] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-06-2007 at 08:18 AM • top

Dr. Radner,
Thank you for this and the many other contributions you have made to the Church. Please forgive a humble layman for asking this question, but since I am likely to need to answer it in any discourse with my bishop (or 75% of the clergy in this diocese, or 60% of the vestry of my parish) over Lambeth 1.10, or Windsor, or the Communique, please lay this out for me in simple terms if you can.
I completely accept everything you say about the councils of the early Church, such reading as I have done on them would support everything you have to say.  But, getting back to discourse with my bishop.  You say in the article, in relation to the authority of the ABC and Lambeth:

Only the Holy Spirit rules on a council!

If you substitute “at general convention” for “on a council”- and I am sure many of our reappraising friends consider GC to be a “council”- you have the very words the bishop has used in his description of GC03 and GC06.  And by the end of today, he may be quoting you, (granted, out of context).  Personally, I think it is obvious that the GC of TEC has not been ruled by the Holy Spirit, based on outcomes.  I would accept that the Council of Nicea was indeed ruled by the Holy Spirit.  But why would one assume, a priori, that Lambeth will be more like Nicea than it is like GC03 or 06?  What are the substantive arguments that we can make that demonstrate that one “council” is ruled by the Holy Spirit and the other is not?  I realize this sounds like a rhetorical question, but it makes one look pretty stupid to engage the worthy opponents in an argument which basically comes down to “my council is better than your council” or “my council is ruled by the Holy Spirit, and yours is not.”
The common logic that comes to mind (again, please forgive a layman’s poor understanding of some points) would be that if a doctrine emerges from a council that is contrary to the words of Scripture, clearly this demonstrates that it is not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and hence the council, at least in that determination was not so ruled.  But the common response in the TEC universe is that the decisions of GC03 are in no way contrary to Scripture- they just point to some “spongian” interpretation of whatever passage you just quoted.

[48] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-06-2007 at 08:18 AM • top

IMHO - which is not scholarly - this article is purely “hedging the bet”.

[49] Posted by Dee in Iowa on 06-06-2007 at 08:23 AM • top

Elizabeth:
Looking at the top of an elephant from the viewpoint of an ivory tower is sometimes as misleading as fumbling around on the ground blindfolded.

[50] Posted by Pilgrim on 06-06-2007 at 08:23 AM • top

Sorry, Matt+—didn’t mean to promote you!

Yes, I know Constantine made the invitations, but that doesn’t change the fact that Nicea is the very definition of Ecumenical Council. Constantine made the invitations, but the Church ratified the makeup of the council by attending and endorsing the results. Clearly the authority of Nicea resides with the Church, not Constantine.

And I clearly said that you objected to the conciliar makeup of Nicea. I think this is consistent with your statement, but in any event it should give even the most steadfast Puritan pause when ones’ argument leads one to object to any aspect of an Ecumenical Council, much less Nicea.

[51] Posted by Dave on 06-06-2007 at 08:27 AM • top

Phil is exactly right.  Councils are councils because under the guidance of the Holy Spirit they define and they discipline.  Archbishop Williams has said (and to a larger extent than the ACI folks are willing to admit has the power to say) that Lambeth will fulfill neither of these tasks.  That makes it a meeting with a photo-op and tea with the Queen, and that makes Anglicanism’s claim to be a counciliar church increasingly (and sadly) absurd.

[52] Posted by Peter Frank on 06-06-2007 at 08:27 AM • top

Let’s don’t wait and see. We have been waiting and seeing for 30 to 40 years, and Schori is graciously giving us another 50 years or so to “catch up”. We know where TEC is going. They have spoken loudly. clearly. consistently. They have been and are going in a non Bibilical, politically liberal, secular, Universalistic direction. September 30 will not change that. Lambeth ‘08 will not change that.

Let’s decide, and take action. Let’s decide what we want, and seek to achieve it. Left on its own, Lambeth ‘08will not achieve it.

The only decision for Orthodox members still within TEC is whether a second recognized orthodox province within the AC is achievable. If not, then there is no place for orthodox Anglican Christians in TEC in the US.

[53] Posted by BillS on 06-06-2007 at 08:36 AM • top

And I do retract my “rich” statement. I had it in my head that you were a deputy. I apologize for the error. But that doesn’t necessarily obviate the larger point: you wear a collar in one of the most heretical denominations in the US. You have obviously long ago come to terms with that—but my question is, why the Huge Principled Stand on associational purity now? Why not years ago? What is it about Lambeth 2008 that’s any different than, for instance, Lambeth 1998? Clearly if the orthodox were to hold together we couldn’t expect worse results than 98—which was attended by ~+Spong, to my mind much more objectionable than ~+Robinson.

[54] Posted by Dave on 06-06-2007 at 08:42 AM • top

Dave, I and my parish are currently on the way out. Negotiations.

[55] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 08:47 AM • top

<blockqoute>However this ACI parallel universe does not seem to have souls in mortal danger, children being raised in parishes under the control of bishops who by their actions and statements do not appear to be Christian, dioceses and parishes being taken to court to evict them from their property, and priests being inhibited and removed for spurious reasons. In addition, this parallel ACI universe seems to have eternity in which to adjust the behavior (and presumably the beliefs) of whatever errant leaders this parallel Anglican Communion happens to have.<blockqoute>

I’ll leave it to the ACI folks to defend themselves, though it seems obvious that their “universe” does take into account these things.

What needs to be challenged is that our primary duty is to ourselves and our families. If you live in a heretical diocese - get out! Save yourselves!

I live in what I consider a heretical diocese (MN). If my parish leaves TEC, no doubt that will make our lives more comfortable. But those “souls in mortal peril” will still be there. Our bishop will never (probably) be challenged. But our children will be safe.

What if Jesus is calling us like he called the church at Sardis, “Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die”? (Indeed, I believe that this season has enabled us to do the first part. We are awake. Many of the orthodox in TEC are now aware of the presence of death in TEC. But will we strengthen or will we flee?)

Sure, we don’t live in the 4th century. But WWAD?

He’d stay and fight.

[56] Posted by ursus on 06-06-2007 at 08:47 AM • top

This whole situation sums up perfectly the MAJOR problem within Anglicanism. The lack of discipline. There is absolutely no one who can or will “excommunicate” heretics from the AC. Certainly not the Archbishop of Canterbury, not the Lambeth Confrence, not the Primates, nor the ACC.

The true Ecumenical Councils did have the authority to excommunicate heretics and did so. There is in reality no authority within Anglicanism as it presently stands.

So you currently have an entire province of the AC which is in virtual heresy. And absolutely no one has the authority to do anything about it. It is time for all orthodox ANglicans in North America to get out.

And to my thinking, so long as the CofE is an established church with the liberal British Parliment sticking its nose in the affairs of the CofE nothing will change. When ++Rowan’s time as ABC is up Parliment will place another liberal on the throne of St. Augustine. Yes indeed, England is Rome’s withered daughter.

[57] Posted by FrRick on 06-06-2007 at 08:47 AM • top

tjmcmajon is absolutely correct.  My council is better than your council. Or TEC could see it as, your conference, that morphed into a council, and assumed legislative and authoritative status is not as legitimate as our council which actually has legitimate legislative authority.

I have stated my concern here before about the “tyranny” of the majority.  Matt+ has missed the point.  Radner+ is arguing something simple to the Africans.  Show up in Lambeth, pass another resolution like Lambeth 1.10.  You have the numbers to do it.  With the passage of 2 such resolutions 1998 and 2008, you will have historicity.  The historical continuity of the the two conferences will give witness to the true operation of the Spirit in the church.

My grad degree is in history.  My undergrad is political science.  I know that this is bunk.  Whether executed by the right on the left, it’s a power play.  In TEC, the left has the majority.  On the right the GS has the numbers.  This is not about the action of the Holy Spirit in the community.  This is about getting what you want and how.  +Radner’s article is not written for TEC or even the bloggers here.  It is written to inform (in case they don’t know) the right how to use Lambeth, and their numbers, to win.

[58] Posted by EmilyH on 06-06-2007 at 08:49 AM • top

The undercurrent theme of the ACI is the covenant to which they are highly invested. Prof Seitz has pointed out that the importance of Lambeth is not whether it will be Earl Grey or Darjeeling but creation of the final form of the communique. Whether the orthodox sat down with heretics in the fourth century is pretty much irrelevant to the question whether the orthodox should sit with heretics in the 21st. If it advances the chosen cause, then swallow your pride and do it.

The TEc and its lackies have now set their sites on the covenant, and it seems very clear that the ABC is nicely in collusion with them. They have thwarted Lambeth 1.10 and Windsor. They have spurned DeS and have been rewarded with invitations to tea for their arrogance. The early invitations carry an implicit dis-invitation to at least some of the GS. With the ABC’s complicity, I have confidence that the TEc will be able to turn the covenant into a statement that “Everyone should love each other. Have a nice day.”

I have expressed my concerns about the covenant. Too little, too late. But if they want a meaningful covenant, they should be pressing for the early expulsion of the TEc, starting with the withdrawal of invitations. It has been shown in DeS, that the ABC can be swayed. They should be pressing for more provinces to stand like Uganda not less. When nobody but the TEc and their apostate friends have sent in their RSVPs, he will rethink his machinations.

Bill Cool is absolutely right, souls are in mortal danger.

[59] Posted by robroy on 06-06-2007 at 08:52 AM • top

Thank you, EmilyH, for completely distorting what I had to say, and making my point for me.
TJ

[60] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-06-2007 at 08:53 AM • top

ursus, that’s a good word.

And for those who would bash Dr Radner and his “ivory tower,” don’t forget, the view is also much better from up there in many ways, and they might see things we don’t.  Though the elephant may look small for Dr Radner (though I doubt it does), at least he see more than the elephant.

[61] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-06-2007 at 08:54 AM • top

However, the people on the ground are in more imminent danger from the elephant, and may not feel they have time to wait to see what the heck the thing is that is trying to trample them.

[62] Posted by Pilgrim on 06-06-2007 at 08:58 AM • top

Dave - We also can’t expect better results.  Lambeth 1998 showed quite clearly that most Anglican bishops know who their savior is and understand Scripture as God’s word.  It was a home run except for that little niggling problem of actually enforcing the definition.  Spong is still an Anglican bishop.  Robinson was elected and consecrated. 

Now Williams not only appears to have basically foresworn any real enforcement.  He has also taking away Lambeth’s role as a defining body.  There isn’t anything left worth the airfare.

[63] Posted by Peter Frank on 06-06-2007 at 09:00 AM • top

Pilgrim,
But perhaps the ivory tower sees an escape route not immediately obvious from the ground.  Let’s see how far we can push this analogy!!
tongue wink
Sometimes people act like perspective is a bad thing…As if Dr Radner isn’t attending a parish, doesn’t have a family, isn’t concerned for the salvation of others, etc.

[64] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-06-2007 at 09:13 AM • top

Don’t forget that his particular diocese has a striking record of being willing to sacrifice parishes and/or individual clergy for the sake of continuing the discussion.

[65] Posted by Pilgrim on 06-06-2007 at 09:17 AM • top

Dave, One does not need to agree with every aspect of an ecumenical council. That is fairly rediculous. I do not need to agree (even though I do) that St. Nicholas whacking Arius in the nose was a good thing in order to accede to the decisions of the Nicene council. I do not need to agree that Arius, already an excommunicated heretic, ought to have been invited to Nicea to acede to the decisions of Nicea. What a strange and, to use your word again, absurd, thing to suggest.

And it is significant that the invitation were not determined by the Church…the Church had already made a determination in the Arian matter in accordance with the scriptures.

Alexander would’ve never considered calling another Alexandrian council to entertain Arian doctrine. It had already been decided.

[66] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 09:21 AM • top

Radner+ is arguing something simple to the Africans.

Yes, spell it out slowly for the backward savages.  Good grief.

[67] Posted by Phil on 06-06-2007 at 09:24 AM • top

On Ivory Towers….
I do wish that one of the wizards in the tower would get on the horn to Frodo and tell him to drop the ring in the fire already cause I don’t know how much longer we can hold the gate at the base of the tower.

[68] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-06-2007 at 09:25 AM • top

I guess those of us in the collateral damage heap can console ourselves that we will have an exalted place in Heaven.

[69] Posted by Pilgrim on 06-06-2007 at 09:29 AM • top

I must say the tone and harsh comments about Radner and ACI living in some strange exotic place are awfully curious. As though they is no personal cost in the meltdown of the church for us, living in some parallel universe. Radner has a family and is the rector of a church, calls on the sick, feeds the poor, preaches, works in Haiti, struggles in a difficult diocesan situation. To read these comments is just sad at points. I will not dwell on the personal cost of fighting these battles for the rest of us. I do wish people would say a prayer and be sure they have things in proper perspective. I realise this is a blog and people are free to say whatever they wish. Fine. But there is also the question of simple accuracy. ACI is an instute concerned with the fate of global anglicanism, as a gift in trust from God. That does not mean we do not suffer along with the rest of you. Please spend ten years in the scottish context and tell me about health and unhealth in the church…God bless.

[70] Posted by zebra on 06-06-2007 at 09:40 AM • top

Dr. Seitz, really.  This has been a good thread on which my quick review counted 2 of 70 comments that might be called “harsh” toward the ACI.  Is no constructive criticism permitted?

[71] Posted by Phil on 06-06-2007 at 10:01 AM • top

Pilgrim—
Isn’t that the point?!?!?

[72] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-06-2007 at 10:10 AM • top

You’ve just defined the Christian life for us!

[73] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-06-2007 at 10:11 AM • top

Please note- the harsh statements came from Colorado.

[74] Posted by Elizabeth on 06-06-2007 at 10:12 AM • top

Elizabeth- just curious, but how do you know where people are from on this blog?  I get asked periodically, so it is no secret I’m in W. Michigan, but is there some “locator” button I’m not familiar with here?

[75] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-06-2007 at 10:30 AM • top

Emily H,‘simple for the Africans’,funny they seem to have an excellent understanding of the situation for not speaking TECese.

[76] Posted by paddy c on 06-06-2007 at 10:48 AM • top

Dr Radner’s article is a tour de force. It sets out an enormously compelling vision of conciliarity, well supported by historical analysis, as a principle whereby sinful individuals cobble together non-infallible decrees which may or may not be accepted as authoritative by the working of an inscrutable historical process, presided over by the Holy Spirit.

There is just one factor to which Dr Radner alludes, but to which he does not I think give due weight, namely, the role of the Pope. True, he considers the issue of the presence of the Pope (or his representatives) in connexion with Constantinople in 381. But he does not, to my mind, give sufficient prominence to what is perhaps the central principle of unity, the one thing that even today draws the whole Anglican communion together.

It is perhaps significant that Dr Radner specifically focused, for his historical survey, on two of the earliest church councils. In those councils, crude errors such as Nestorianism and Arianism were at issue, and were discussed using relatively simple theological terms such as “physis” and “ousia”. Today, we are free to consider more abstruse theological concepts, difficult words by which even those united by faith in the Lord Jesus can mean totally different things - words such as “church”, “unity”, “communion”, “in” and “out”.

Fortunately, there is one central doctrine which can resolve all these differences, upon which all Angicans seem to be agreed, and which I think deserves to be called the Principle of Unity, namely:

The Bishop of Rome hath no writ in this realm.

Add this Unity Principle to the others that Dr Radner adduces, and we now have, I think, the essentials of the conciliar process that is at work in the Anglican Communion. Rather than try to come up with man-made rules that attempt to describe or prescribe how ecclesial communities cope with the “tensions” that arise in their midst (as the poor benighted papists do), perhaps we should instead see how in fact the Holy Spirit chooses to manifest itself in the course of history, and draw our own private, highly nuanced, conclusions.

[77] Posted by Unsubscribe on 06-06-2007 at 10:51 AM • top

Tj,
I know where I am and I hear the frustration of some of the posting.  If there are Colorado orthodox who are happy with things here, I would love to know it.
As Pilgrim said-” Don’t forget that his particular diocese has a striking record of being willing to sacrifice parishes and/or individual clergy for the sake of continuing the discussion. ”

[78] Posted by Elizabeth on 06-06-2007 at 10:54 AM • top

Dr. Seitz,
  I am not sure which particular posts you object to, I hope none of them are mine, as I certainly did not intend to offend either you or Dr. Radner.  But I do know that I am “brusque” (to put it kindly) at times.  If so, I do apologize.
There are 2 things I have learned here about blogging.  One is that on any given day, 25% of the people may be working at contrary purposes to the rest of us, and some of them are pretty clever- that is to say they present themselves as conservatives, state beliefs that any of us would consider orthodox, and then proceed to intentionally pick a fight with somebody over one or another adiaphoron in order to distract us from whatever progress we were making in our discussion.  This in addition to those who are much more overt, and say things that are completely outrageous in order to upset tempers, and those who take statements completely out of context.  What I am trying to get across is that while this is indeed a place where we exchange information, it is also a battleground.  Do not assume that anything you read here is representative of anything other than a given person’s opinion.  And do not assume that the writer is an orthodox Anglican.  Some may be intentionally trying to offend you.
    Second, I will confess myself that I am given to “knee jerk” reactions to things on the web, and I think this is true for many if not most.  The proper way to react to Dr. Radner’s paper would be to read it through several times, reflect upon it, check anything we thought to be factually or theologically in error with several independent sources, likewise research additional sources for those points which we found particularly pertinent, and then written essays or reviews based upon our conclusions and published those, perhaps early next week.  But the nature of the medium is such that what you get are 75 responses within a couple hours of posting a piece that I am sure Dr. Radner spent a great deal of time and effort on.  A number of those responses are not really negative so much as they are saying “this is not the answer I need now.”
    Many of us are in a pastoral crisis.  I think that long before Lambeth, my church will have a new rector, and it is highly probable that the days of orthodoxy here will end.  That is the battle in which I am currently engaged, and ++Rowan has done me no favors in that battle by extending an invitation to our local bishop, and making it appear that he approves of the course our bishop is taking (just ask the other members of the vestry).  I recognize that this is a case where he has larger strategic considerations, but I would like some indication that there is a purpose to fighting on.  Sorry for the battlefield metaphor, but I do not know another way to say this.

[79] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-06-2007 at 11:10 AM • top

Constructive criticism? Have at it!!! Calling people out of touch, in parallel universes, ivory towers, lacking regard for people’s families, academic intellectuals with no contact to the real world—I call this unconstructive ad hominem.

[80] Posted by zebra on 06-06-2007 at 11:11 AM • top

I will now silently participate in a Period of Listening to the real pain and suffering of my academic brethren.  There will be no inappropriate reasoning or dissent from the peanut gallery.

[81] Posted by Pilgrim on 06-06-2007 at 11:15 AM • top

I think it would be fair to say that Ephraim Radner does indeed live in the trenches—and not just any trenches, but those of Colorado where the bishop’s tyranny borders on that of mad man.
But it is also true that Ephraim attempts to offer some sort of longer view and be a non-anxious presence in the larger church—hoping, sometimes against hope, that there is a way forward that is less painful than the total realignment within the United States, within the Communion—and for that matter, within Christianity in general. There is much to be said for his longer view.
The problem becomes when one either becomes a target, as I have become—and that primarily for being the primary financier of ACI; or when a parish finds itself disintegrating because the behavior of the HOB and GC is driving away parishioners as integrity demands their disaffiliation.
In our own case, we simply had to decide what sort of parish to be—a dying parish whose parishioners were leaving for other denominations they perceived to be more faithful,  a parish who would suffer the departure of liberals and institutional Episcopalians, or a parish that knew the Lord it served, was faithful to His calling, and trusted in His sovereignty.

These are difficult days, made more difficult by an aggressive presiding bishop, egged on by aggressive attorneys, and strengthened by vitriolic liberal clergy, pension bound broad clergy, and some scared/threatened/frozen conservative clergy.

The church is in a tough place—I can only tell you how wonderful it is not to have be embarrassed by TEC and be back to doing the Lord’s work—and to be blessed by that—and maybe even be willing to forgo Anglicanism for that.

Don Armstrong

[82] Posted by Don Armstrong on 06-06-2007 at 11:17 AM • top

Thanks Elizabeth.  I don’t think any of us are happy with the way things are going, even outside Colorado, but all of you there are in our prayers.

[83] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-06-2007 at 11:19 AM • top

Try this. I don’t give a **** about precedent. Earlier councils were held for reasons light years away from the problems we face. They are irrelavent.  Not another word about them.

I understand that the ACI and its people have been in the trenches, and I thank them for that. What I also understand is that if we mishandle the 9/30 deadline, the American Anglicanism is no more.  The time for talk is over. What I also understand is that the men of Africa do not now nor ever will intend to soil themselves and their bishops by meeting heretics, fornicators and “dogs.”  Even at a tea with HRHLizII.

Why? Because The GS lives in the moment of NOW, not 50 years from now. Poverty, disease, hunger are daily realities. Their souls mean more to their bishops than attendance at Lambeth’s “Jamboree.” Why is this so desperately unclear? If TEC is not dismissed immediately after 9/30 ++Peter Abuja and his friends will lead us out of the 4 decade nightmare. It Is Over.  Spend the considerable force of your intellects to see to it that 9/30 is the turning point. Let the historians write about it later.

[84] Posted by teddy mak on 06-06-2007 at 11:35 AM • top

I wish that there could be more conversation on the level that has been demonstrated by ACI and particularly Radner and Seitz.  It is amazing how Radner, for example, can produce a well-thought out essay with Scripture and theological reasoning only to receive comments that show nowhere near the depth or specificity that Radner has offered.

[85] Posted by TonyinCNY on 06-06-2007 at 11:45 AM • top

People in the MASH unit communicate differently than people in the Officer’s Mess.  Adeiu.

[86] Posted by Pilgrim on 06-06-2007 at 12:08 PM • top

Tony and Drs. Radner and Seitz,

It is indeed sad to have to agree with your observations.  I find it necessary to take a break from several of the orthodox blogs periodically so as to not become angry at orthodox brethren who can be caustic.  Blogs and the internet have offered the hope that perhaps lay, clergy and theologians can engage in conversation, exploring issues of interest in ways which stimulate better understanding and appreciation of the complexity of the issues which mire this crisis.  Unfortunately, the overzealousness often stymies the dialogue.

I would like to encourage the more scholarly amongst us to consider it a gifting to those of us who value your input, to continue your dialogue with those who wish to engage in dialogue.  Simply ignoring attacks sends a very clear message. 

Dr. Radner, I believe your essay goes to the heart of forebearing each other’s burdens.  Your suggestions and portrayal of Lambeth is a difficult pill to swallow for many of the troops in battle.  I think the tension you note hear is a very common theme throughout this time of crisis.  It exists between the scholars and laypeople, scholars and clergy and clergy and laypeople.  The laypeople in non-orthodox dioceses become resentful of those in orthodox dioceses.  The troops simply have no inner strength to drag this on any longer or to forbear the burdens of “liberal heretics”.  Thus while your message is an important one, it is not well received.  Nonetheless, I hope you will not be dissuaded from speaking it as it speaks to a perspective which I believe will be our only way forward as a communion.

[87] Posted by richardc on 06-06-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

Father Ephraim wears many hats. Unfortunately, one of them is not a pointy one as bishop of Colorado. As a parishioner of his, I can attest to him not being in any ivory tower but one who is intimately aware of the struggles of the orthodox swimming in a liberal sea. One thing that people don’t know Father Ephraim is how he does not mix the hats. Probably most in the congregation know that he has a national and international role but not much more than that. He is a parish priest to his parishioners.

I might have questions and reservations about the ACI strategy, but do not have any about Father Ephraim’s Christian witness.

[88] Posted by robroy on 06-06-2007 at 12:29 PM • top

While it is fine to take the long view, in the long run we are all dead. Sometimes it is necessary to face reality, as difficult as that is. Reality is that the liberals in TEC have won and the orthodox have lost. Schori is in charge for the next nine years, and she is not leaving, and she is not changing.

We must decide what kind of a future we want for orthodox Anglicans, and we must figure it out fairly soon. When people with the devotion of Matt Kennedy are making plans to leave, the rest of Orthodox Anglicans in the US will not be far behind. If things continue as they are through Sept 30 and Lambeth ‘08, TEC will be down by 25% within the next two years. Once these people leave, they are not coming back.

I hope that the Windsor Bishops, ACI, Network, etc are working assiduously to put together an alternative plan that allows us to be independent of TEC. If not, many of us will be independent of TEC in another denomination.

[89] Posted by BillS on 06-06-2007 at 12:45 PM • top

“in the long run..” ..surely not just dead as those with no hope assume.

[90] Posted by tdunbar on 06-06-2007 at 12:54 PM • top

How convenient it is for DA to proclaim everyone “mad.” I’d be more than just MAD if a priest in my diocese had stolen all that money

[91] Posted by TransplantedOkie on 06-06-2007 at 01:11 PM • top

The early invitations to the the arrogantly defiant HoB were nothing but an outrageous undermining of the will of the primates. Now, the ACI states the orthodox should acquiesce to this outrage and go along with the ABC so that nothing is decided till Lambeth.

By Oct 1st, the TEC will have fully rejected the primates’ DeS requests. Is that not enough? Do we have to wait for covenant and have them defy that, too? When will that be? Will that be enough? Certainly will be a moot point because there will be no orthodox Anglican presence left in the U.S.

October 1 is enough. NO MORE. The ABC has shown he is no friend of the orthodox but can be swayed. I say start shoving. No Lambeth with apostates. And how does orthodox sway the ABC? By following the good Archbishop Orombi’s lead. If half the world’s anglicans’ bishops have not sent in their RSVPs by November, I think that the ABC will reconsider his “keeping all at the table” strategy.

And with the TEC out of grace (pun intended), the covenant will proceed post haste without the obvious plotting against it that has already started.

[92] Posted by robroy on 06-06-2007 at 01:39 PM • top

robroy,

I"m surprised that you would think institutional change is so simple.

[93] Posted by richardc on 06-06-2007 at 02:01 PM • top

On Armstrong+ and “stolen all that money”  Armstrong+ has denied the charges.  He has been inhibited and been the subject of presentment; he has elected not to participate in that process.  Grace St. Stephens is now in litigation and the diocese, I believe, has filed for summary judgment.  It will be a hard sell for CANA/Armstrong+ to prevail in Colorado’s civil courts.  But, until the time that Armstrong+ is either convicted in a civil court or in an ecclesiastical one of theft, misappropriation etc., shouldn’t we just assume that he is telling the truth?  Armstrong+ was an effective fundraiser.  I am sure that Radner, Seitz et alia miss his gifts to their cause, particularly now.  On that note, does anyone know if the Anglican Communion Institute has 501c3 status?  (i.e, gifts to it are tax deductible?)  I am assuming that, as a mission outreach of Grace St. Stephens, it operated under their status as a church but I don’t know.  With the separation, this is no longer the case?  Was the travel and conference budget of Seitz, Turner and Radner about 75K/annum?  That’s a chunk of cash to replace.

[94] Posted by EmilyH on 06-06-2007 at 02:43 PM • top

I have learned from the many comments here already.  One general concern – leaving aside details about this or that aspect of the church – is that the kind of approach I am urging represents (as several people have put it) a “fiddling while Rome burns”.  That is, they feel I am promoting a brand of “conciliarism” that will accomplish nothing and wastes time and energy, even while the Christian faith that is present at least in some parts of North America is ruined.  I take exception to the analogy, on a number of levels.  Most importantly, as a violinist I am offended at applying the image of a bowed instrument to Nero, cruel man that he was, who clearly never got beyond plucking something or other.  What did he know about fiddling?  (Yes, the Devil is often represented as playing a violin too; but that is more complimentary for a number of reasons.  After all, the Devil also quotes Scripture!)

On a more serious note, I would say this in response.  First, I am surely ignorant of many things and realities in the church’s life, and that ignorance skews my vision.  But this is true for all of us, and it is one of the main reasons why I believe we must be very careful in erecting church-wide strategies (for leave-taking and reform, as much as anything), beyond the normal order of our polity, based on our limited experiences. 

It is not true, for instance, that I don’t think clergy or parishes, or perhaps even dioceses, should ever “leave” TEC.  There are all kinds of reasons for doing so, some of them quite compelling. But these reasons are mostly based on varied particulars, and it is a grave mistake to project absolutes onto the larger church from these particulars.  In the case of the Diocese the Colorado, to take one example I know, some conservative clergy and congregations have fared poorly and have perhaps needed to “leave” in order to maintain their common life at all.  However, other conservative clergy and congregations have not (including my own), and we—including our children – are not under threat from the admittedly distorted embodiments of Christianity that populate the diocese in various places.  The differences between these groups of conservatives have to do with geography, culture, human details, and more. But differences they are.

Given this fact, “leave-taking” should (I believe) be more “ad hoc” in its form, rather than organized according to some set of absolute principles.  For since the motives are often more tied up with “particulars”, any attempt to absolutize these reasons will by definition prove deforming of other realities and circumstances, whose own absolutized projections will exist in simple conflict with them.  The result:  competing absolute strategies, that do not admit of common counsel, vision, discernment, and finally reconciliation in truth and charity.  Far better, I think, are “leave-takings” that simply park themselves in provisional places of relationship and witness, e.g. what the Network was permitting and coordinating for a while (still?).  It was/is messy, but not destructive, for it not only left open, but demanded the common work of the larger Communion to resolve (something Dar es Salaam at least initially attempted to do). 

These kinds of observations – which are informed, I believe, by the New Testament’s approach to Christian discipline—are not born, I hope, of delusion or abstraction.  Just the opposite.  The reason we need the Communion to work together – and therefore stay together as much as possible – is so that individual and particular realities do not end up trumping the Holy Spirit’s transformative purposes for the whole Church, a church universal, “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic”, within the particular circumstances of each part of it.  It is not the case that trusting the functional working of the Communion’s councils and gatherings is simply an acknowledgement of an eternal groping in the dark (as some here have suggested):  such trust and work makes sense because it is part of a larger submission that is demanded of the whole Church, whose longer term process assures over time that individual particulars remain just that, local circumstances, to be dealt with in various ways, with the freedom and demand of prudence, but never given the power to define the whole and the end of the whole.  The problems of some parts of North America must not run the train of the Communion.  Things go wrong when particulars are made absolutes, and absolutes are allowed to devolve into relative particulars.  To read the Lambeth Conference through the lens of the conflicts within TEC is a mistake.  The conflicts are real;  they must be dealt with and resolved;  discipline must be re-established.  But to make the means of doing this, and the diverse and absolutized opinions about these means, drive the form of the Anglican Communion is, to paraphrase Edmund Burke, “not only erroneous” but a kind of “madness”, a “theological madness”. 

Conciliar action, properly pursued, seeks to maintain the principle of the whole, through a flexible and prudent engagement with the “infinite and infinitely combined circumstances” (Burke) of reality.  Yes, this is like “politics” or “statesmanship”, but with one essential and transformative element added: the Christian faith in the Holy Spirit as the gift given to those willing to subject their “abstractions and universals” to the diverse demands of engaged counsel, within which will grow the Spirit’s fruit.  It is this last reality that leads me to encourage our leaders not to give into that other element, less congruent with the Spirit’s life:  brinksmanship.

[95] Posted by Ephraim Radner on 06-06-2007 at 02:46 PM • top

Me, I find myself in a very unwilling agreement with Dr Radner’s original article (and with Jeremy B’s first post). We *do* sit with the heretics and the unGodly face to face (to evangelize them!) but we are not in union/communion with them. We can only *assist* the Holy Spirit in maintaining the faith, and that assistance is best given by maintaining our own faiths at a higher level. Remember, Mrs Shori was invited to Dar es Salaam, but there were those present who were not in communion with her (it caused her and TEC a lot of heartburn, too).

Regretfully, though, it probably means that ALL the Anglican bishops should be invited to Lambeth as full members, including Mr Robinson, even if there is no repentence by Sept 30. And the CANA/AMiA bishops. And the continuing bishops. I hope Dr Radner sent a copy of his article to +++Rowan.

Wow! What a field for the Holy Spirit to play upon! Even if it doesn’t turn out well. Even if it gives opportunity for posturing. He can handle it. We won’t really know what happened until time has told us.

Expulsions if any, or realignment, or even Communion collapse, should take place later using some kind of specific (quick) process set up by the prelates explicitly for that purpose. Dar es Salaam is a good precedent for that, actually. Lambeth would certainly be a good opportunity for orthodox prelates to ask TEC’s bishops why they didn’t respond, and settle other issues if necessary (including +++Rowan’s leadership), and get started on the process. Individuals in the meantime could make whatever arrangements for safety they might need without necessarily getting clear out.

And, Matt+, please accept my prayers for you and your parish.

In faith, Dave (different Dave)

[96] Posted by dpeirce on 06-06-2007 at 03:19 PM • top

(I can attest to Father Ephraim’s “fiddle playin’.”)

Great point, Richard. No, I don’t think it would be simple. I do think that the orthodox of the AC are looking for action of the orthodox in the states. The September common cause meeting can be the spring board. I hope and pray that it is.

Did you read Father Armstrong’s comment? He said the he is free of the embarrassment of the TEC. When the islamo-palian priest promotes her drivel or when the bishop of Newark is developing a manual for SSBs, or the sufi-palians do their thing, etc, ad nauseum, Father Armstrong can laugh and not want to hang his head in shame. How wonderful that would be!  Naive? Oversimplified. No, the path is fraught with difficulties as Father Armstrong fully knows. Do you think the scheme of the ACI is complication free? Lots of unknowns and pitfalls. The ACI are trying to develop a plan out of this mess without the involvement of CANA, AMiA. I don’t think that is desirable or possible.

[97] Posted by robroy on 06-06-2007 at 03:20 PM • top

Anyone wishing to make a donation to ACI is welcome to, and if you have questions about the tax exempt status, there is a link to someone at our web-site who can answer that.

I am not sure of the 75K per annum figure! But if we could do something along these lines, I might even be able to get something back for the time investment….

We are all going to be working hard at the Oxford event next month and yes, donations for flights and housing would be gratefully received. I promise we’ll be in steerage.

As for the details of ACI in its former guise, that is not a cause for comparison. We are now incorporated in the State of Texas.

**

On that note, does anyone know if the Anglican Communion Institute has 501c3 status?  (i.e, gifts to it are tax deductible?) I am assuming that, as a mission outreach of Grace St. Stephens, it operated under their status as a church but I don’t know.  With the separation, this is no longer the case?  Was the travel and conference budget of Seitz, Turner and Radner about 75K/annum?  That’s a chunk of cash to replace.

[98] Posted by zebra on 06-06-2007 at 03:22 PM • top

Dr Radner,
I am glad to hear your parish is doing well under +O’Neil.  I found he could be very persuasive on many levels and you seem to have found common ground with him.  Conciliar is not a word I would have used to describe him, but if it works for you so be it.  I am glad you acknowlege it will not work with all and hope you can give support to those who must leave.

[99] Posted by Elizabeth on 06-06-2007 at 03:31 PM • top

Ephraim,

First, gotta give some love for your name.  I’m an Eph from the Berkshires.  Second, gotta give respect for hanging with us on this thread.  You have modeled Christ well.

Here’s my Q (which I asked earlier).  In light of your description of Lambeth, what role does it play in defining membership?  In other words, we’ve been hearing for years now that being in communion with ABC makes you part of the Anglican Communion.  It seemed to me that being in communion with ABC meant “your diocesan bishop got invited to Lambeth.”  Does that mean the good people of NH are now outside of the AC?  Have I missed something?

[100] Posted by Widening Gyre on 06-06-2007 at 03:37 PM • top

Dr. Radner,
Thank you for maintaining your sense of humor, and your defense of bowed instruments. 

I am tempted, however, to reiterate my earlier observation (somewhat restated): It is the position of TEC that their actions and convention decisions ARE the expressed will of the Holy Spirit.  My own bishop was “led by the Holy Spirit” both in his support of VGR and his more recent vote for KJS.  The standing committee claims that they were “guided by the Holy Spirit” in refusing consent for Mark Lawrence.  In order for any past or future decision of Lambeth or any other council or instrument of the Anglican Communion to stick, TEC must be disabused of the notion that they hold sole propriety over the work and will of the Holy Spirit.  How do we go about doing that?

[101] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-06-2007 at 03:43 PM • top

Dear Ephriam+,  I have always appreciated and still appreciate all of your insights and comments on the current “mess” in which we find ourselves as orthodox Anglican Christians, though no one can ever take away the joy we have in Christ.  As a lay person who has been in TEC all of my life and often been in pain about where its leadership has clearly been headed, I am thankful for every person in a collar (or not in a collar, for that matter) who is in submission to Jesus Christ and the truth of the Holy Scriptures of which he himself tells us he is the absolute and complete fulfillment.  This includes those of you at the ACI AND all the Network Bishops, as well as all those in the Common Cause Partnership and especially the strong and faithful Christian leaders of the Global South.  I believe God has given us faithful leadership on several different fronts for such a time as this. 

All of you have clearly demonstrated by your witness (and God has called different ones of you to witness for Christ in various ways), that you want nothing less that a continuance of “the faith once delivered to the saints,” the holy catholic and apostolic faith, in the orthodox Anglican tradition that we all have loved and from which our lives have been greatly blessed by God.

I would ask that this discussion not ever be about the ACI vs. The Network or the Global South Primates of the other way around. I have benefited too much from all the ways God is using ALL of you in standing firm in the faith. 

I do not share your hope about an outcome of Lambeth 2008 accomplishing any of the above, though of course God in His Sovereignty can do mighty miracles beyond our ability to envision or comprehend.  The reason for my skepticism is simply that the submission to Christ and to the truth that he embodies is not evident in those planning this meeting or in many of those who will be participating.  They appear to be working at odds against God’s will rather than in concert with it (an understatement really).  People who are sold out to Jesus have no reason to want to delay or inhibit clarity or to submit to discipline in Christ.  Isn’t it more likely that the Holy Spirit is speaking mightily through the clarity of the Global South Primates such as Archbishop Henry Orombi, a man whose life and words clearly demonstrate to whom he belongs? 

One more point, if I may address something relevant to this thread, but not specifically a part of it:
Yesterday, Chris+ Seitz had some critical remarks about the Network Bishops and I was sad to see that.  Also, as someone who has believed in the mission of the Network because of the faithfulness of its leadership, I am not aware that any of the Network Bishops have abandoned ship as Chris+ implied on the thread about the Common Cause Bishops’ Meeting.  They may not all be on the same time schedule, but I am unaware that their numbers have diminished at all.  It is my hope that all of you at the ACI will continue to pray for the Network Bishops and all those in the Common Cause Partnership to have the courage and strength that God has given them in abundance thus far, to be the faithful leaders that we need.  And the same goes for all of you at the ACI.  We ALL have unity in Christ and that should be the overiding fact in our dealings with each other.  God bless you!

[102] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 06-06-2007 at 04:40 PM • top

I wish to take issue with Dr. Radner’s fundamental assumption that the Council of Nicaea offers useful precedents for Anglicans who wish to sit and deliberate in an ecclesiastical assembly or council with heretics or excommunicated persons, both by contradicting his general assumptions about Nicaea, and particularly that it was an ecclesiastical organ, and to qualify by way of contradiction one of the pieces of evidence that he had adduced for this, the case of the Novatianist bishop Ascesius, and to suggest that that episode rather works in opposition to his general thesis, than in support of it.  This will probably require an extended posting, and in addition I might post some remarks on the use to which Dr. Radner’s remarks have been put by some of the subsequent commentators on this thread.

As is well known, the Alexandrian presbyter Arius was condemned for heresy by a local Egyptian synod in around 320.  Arius was a popular preacher and learned theologian, and the controversy over his teaching, far from being resolved, spread far and wide in the novel conditions of freedom granted to the Church by the Emperor Constantine.  This was not the first occasion on which local synods had met to deliberate and determine controversial issues of faith and practice.  A series of local synods throughout the Roman world had met in the 190s, in response to the urgings of Pope Victor, to pass judgment on the issue of when Easter should be celebrated; and a large local synod ha dmet in Antioch in 269 AD to condemn as heretical the teachings of the Bishop of Antioch, Paul of Samosata, on the Trinity and Christ.  These synods were, by definition, ecclesiastical organs: they had been summoned by those bishops who held primacies in their regions, and were assemblies of the leaders of what was an illegal organization.  The assembly that gathered at Nicaea in October 325, in response to Constantine’s summons (the motive of that religious-minded Christian-sympathizing pagan seems to have been to secure divine favor for his rule by quelling dissention in the “cult” that he favored) was in no sense an eccleiastical organ or institution.  Rather, it was a meeting of (if I may use an anachronistic Tudor English term) the imperial Privy Council, the body of advisers and counsellors appointed by the Emperor to give him advice, to which (since the matter to be discussed and resolved concerned a subject, Christian doctrine, on which the regular councillors were not expert) Christian bishops were summoned (as “experts”) from all over the empire.  The council met, deliberated, produced a creed designed—from Constantine’s perspective—to resolve the “problem,” and the bishops, taking advantage of their convenient gathering, went on to promulgate various canons, to decide on a universal method of observing Easter and the 40 day Lent.  Constantine himself then promulgated the results as imperial law, which it was the responsibility of his officials to enforce.  Some of the bishops showed themselves apprehensive as to how such an unprecedented thing as an emperor, and a pagan at that, legislating on Church affairs would be received at home by their clergy and people; others, like Pope Sylvester of Rome (perhaps mindful of the result when Constantine had called a meeting of Western bishops at Arles, presided over by his predecessor pope Miltiades, in 314 to decide how to resolve the Donatist Schism in Africa and had made use of the synod’s decision that not the Donatists but their opponents were “the Catholic Church” in Africa to decree draconian laws against the Donatists, only to abandon the enforcement of these laws when the Donatists proved recalcitrant, and so in the end leaving the condition of the African Catholics worse than it had been before) refused to come and sent two presbyters as his representatives (Constantine has called the meeting at Arles as a “Privy Council” meeting as well, but the bishops had acted as if they had been a church synod, and instead of giving Constantine answers to his questions about the issues and facts of the North African dispute they had contented themselves with stating that the Donatists were wrong and their opponents were right, and that because the theology of the Donatists was at odds with that of Rome and that of their opponents agreed with that of Rome; and left Constantine to make of that what he would).

Within two or three years it became obvious to Constantine that Nicaea had not and would not achieved its purpose (as he viewed it), its purpose being to condemn trouble-makers and restore tranquillity NOT to promulgate doctrinal truth for its own sake and to condemn error.  Ably worked-on by come of the “court prelates” around him, especially Eusebius of Nicomedia, who had become Archbishop of Constantinople, he began to search for compromise formulae that would allow Arius and his supporters to be restored to communion—and if that involved qualifying, or even abrogating, the Creed of Nicaea, well that would be no different from replacing a failed “remedy” in any other area of public life with a better remedy, even if it contradicted the first one.  Soon he was so favorably by the reasonability and “spirit of accomodation” that Arius and his supporters displayed, by contrast with the unbending “fanaticism” of Athanasius and other supporters of Nicaea—it all sounds so very, well, Anglican, doesn’t it?—that only Arius’ sudden death in 336 prevented his restoration to communion in Constantinople, while Constantine allowed Athanasius to be the victim of trumped-up charges and to be exiled from his see.

Athanasius and his friends upheld the faith of Nicaea, not because an “ecumenical council” had decreed it (for no such concept or thing as yet existed), but because it was the truth; and also because all the bishops at Nicaea had proclaimed it as such, and Rome had received it as such, and Arius had been excommunicated for refusing it.  In the 340s and 50s emperors had called various councils of the same sort as Nicaea had been (legally): some upheld Nicaea (Serdica in 343), some, later on, tacitly rejected it, and most tried to “nuance” it.  By the 360s both sides had abandoned all attempts at compromise, and with this, most of the hesitant in the East were turning in favor of Nicaea (which in the West had virtually universal acceptance), while the Arians were rejecting it root and branch.  In 379 a Westerner became Emperor in the East: one of his first acts was to expel the Arian bishop and clergy from Constantinople and to turn the churches over to the orthodox, as well as to bring in a “Nicene” bishop; and soon after the Council of Constantinople of 381—a local council originally, but a council of bishops only, although summoned at the emperor’s behest; Rome and Alexandria did not ascribe “ecumenical” status to it for nearly a century—both sealed the triumph of the Nicene Faith and the “canonization” of the Council of Nicaea itself.  In the Fourth Century the concept of an “ecumenical council” as a church assembly of bishops, summoned at the emperor’s behest and presided over by an imperial appointee (who might be a civil official or a bishop, as the emperor chose), but a church assembly nevertheless—whose bishops reached their decisions by virtue of their “apostolic status” as “Catholic bishops”—even if requiring for its validity subsequent endorsement by the emperor, the bishops as a whole and especially the Bishop of Rome, became concrete—but it was not so earlier.

I have mentioned how the bishops who assembled at Arles in 314, although summoned by the emperor as an arm of his government and council, nevertheless acted as a synod of bishops had customarily acted, and not as a session of the imperial Privy Council might be expected to act.  The same thing happened at Nicaea, to a degree.  The bishops took advantage of their being together to do things that Constantine had never required of them, such as enacting canons and regulating Lent and Easter.  They did one other thing as well.  Constantine had invited the bishops to pass judgment on Arius and his supporters (who were there as defendants, not as members, having already been excommunicated), and these were all bishops of “the Catholic Church” (the Church of which Arius had been a presbyter), bishops who shared a sacramental and institutional unity—with one exception, Ascesius the Novatian.

(to be continued)

[103] Posted by William Tighe on 06-06-2007 at 04:41 PM • top

(cont’d)

The “Novatian Church” was a body that had originated in 251, in the aftermath of the Decian persecution.  Previously, Christians who had apostatized under persecution could not be readmitted to the Church, that is, to the Eucharist, until they were on their deathbed (if someone recovered from his “deathbed,” well that was a clear sign from God, but nevertheless an exception to the general rule); but then it was decided, in Rome first and then generally by most bishops throughout the Christian world, that repentant apostates could be readmitted to the Church and sacraments after some years of penitential exclusion.  Not all bishops, however.  In Rome, the presbyter Novatian oppose such unseemly “laxity” (even if the Church could forgive such apostates, he insisted, it should not, because it would weaken morale) and his followers elected him as bishop (possibly the first “antipope”).  He found sympathetic bishops to consecrate him, and soon there was small, but dedicated, Novatianist “counterchurch.”  The Novatianists were the most orthodox of schismatics: other then their insistence on the strict lifelong exclusion of even repentant apostates (and adulterers, murderers, killers of infants and procurers of abortions; and possibly sodomists) from communion, their faith was identical to that of “the Catholics.”  They detested the views of Arius as much as any “Catholic Christians” and after Nicaea they firmly maintained Nicene Trinitarian orthodoxy, while of course maintaining their own views on the exclusion of heinous sinners.  It is not known why Constantine invited Ascesius to Nicaea, or even whether he knew him to be a Nivatianist—but at Nicaea he was as ardent an opponent of Arius as any other (although he didn’t emulate St. Nicholas in slapping Arius in the mouth to stop his “blasphemies”).  However—and here’s my point—when it came out that he was a Novatianist schismatic (and not a “bishop of the Catholic Church”) he was immediately expelled from the assembly; and thus in this respect the bishops were acting as synod that could no more tolerate the membership of a schismatic than it could that of a heretic, and not as a meeting (or “conference” if you will) called by the emperor that had perforce to accept the membership of whomever it was that he had invited.

I think that the drift of all this is clear.  If Nicaea is to be regarded as a kind of exemplar for a Lambeth Conference (datum sed non concessum as the scholastics were wont to say), then we can give an easy answer to some of Dr. Radner’s questions, to wit:

“Does one sit in council with those with whom one is out of communion?”  No—as proved by the status of Arius and his supporters as “defendants” and even more by the ejection of Ascesius.

“Does one sit in council with heretics?”  No—Ariius and his supporters were there as defendants, not fellow-councillors.

“Does one sit in council with the excommunicated?”  No—see above and cf. the treatment of Nestorius at Ephesus (431) and of Dioscoros and Eutyches at Chalcedon (451).

“Does one sit at council with those who have betrayed previous councils?”  If they have renounced their errors and repented of them, yes; but if not, no.

“Does non-invitation of potentially worthy attendees invalidate a council?”  No (here I agree with Dr. Radner, since the “test” of a council was its reception; but we can have a wide field of argument if we discuss “reception by whom” or “... by how many.”

“Is the Lambeth Conference a council?”  Ah, well ...

(to be continued)

[104] Posted by William Tighe on 06-06-2007 at 04:43 PM • top

correction on above:  that should be “NOT to submit to discipline in Christ.”

[105] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 06-06-2007 at 04:48 PM • top

Gosh Dr Tighe - even more to come!  Always helpful to have the RC view.

[106] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 06-06-2007 at 04:51 PM • top

My dear Betty—I am sorry to hear you say that I had negative comments about Network Bishops. My own bishop (John Howe) was a part of the Network. He and Bishops Stanton, Love, Steenson, Salmon, etc, along with many other valiant soldiers (MacPherson, Smith, Lipscomb, Herlong, Jenkins) really boosted my spirits at two CA meetings.

My very minor point was that the ‘Network’ appeared to now be folding into a Common Cause College, with CANA etc, and the Bishops named above, for various reasons not keen on this.

Don’t shoot the messenger. As many have pointed out, this potential division was always there—not least because several Network Bishops have not been able to see AMiA and now CANA as good ways forward.

I very much enjoyed the work I did for you all down in TN. Hope to see you again soon. All best wishes in Christ, Christopher Seitz

[107] Posted by zebra on 06-06-2007 at 05:23 PM • top

Not having the depth of knowledge held and shared by the esteemed Drs. Tighe,Seitz and Radner,I would humbly offer that if Lambeth were to be viewed in the same light as Nicea then it would be my hope that the criteria for any judgment attempted of the Episcopal Church would mirror the words of the Apostle Paul in Col.1:23:‘if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and stedfast,and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel that you have heard,which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven…’

[108] Posted by paddy c on 06-06-2007 at 05:24 PM • top

(cont’d)

“Is the Lambeth Conference a council?”

Well, the Council of Nicaea wasn’t a council (or ecumenical council or church synod WHEN IT MET), either, so in that respect then odds are even between Lambeth and Nicaea.  But the “Catholic bishops” who were called to assemble at Nicaea (like their Western predecessors at Arles a few years later) made of themselves as much as a synod as they could in their actions and deliberations, undertaking actions that seem to have been no part of the emperor’s “brief” to them, but rather on their own initiative, such as their canons and their expulsion of Ascesius and so in the long run created a new institution that became a truly ecclesiastical body, albeit one that never escaped from imperial “oversight” (which sometime amounted to control and sometimes only influence and on occasion not even that), at least in the East (the later ecumenical councils of the [Roman] Catholic Church are a different, if not entirely dissimilar, matter).  The Lambeth Conference could make itself a council, but only if the bishops at it, or most of them, have the courage to act as “Catholic bishops” and not as denominational CEOs or as guests at My Lord of Canterbury’s Camp.  How?  I have already elsewhere suggested one method: let the Church of Nigeria divide and multiply its dioceses and bishops so that it can send 500 bishops to Lambeth; and let the other “Global South” churches undertake a proportional action to “increase and multiply” bishops.  More importantly, let its bishops act as Catholic bishops—in particular, be seizing control of its proceedings and rejecting, if necessary, any predetermined and constricting agenda (after all, the ABC has considerably less musclemen to intimidate the bishops than Constantine had at his disposal, and I think that H.M. the Queen will not be able to spare her Yeomen of the Guard or Gentlemen-at-Arms to back him up) AND by treating the ECUSA (and, depending on forthcoming decisions, the Canadian) bishops as defendants, not brethren—and expelling them and their “churches” from the Anglican Communion if they get “uppity” or assert their heresies, rather than then and there repenting of them or (in the case the righteous men among them, whose names are known and are far from legion) repudiating them then and there.  And then—let the chips fall as they may.

Can Anglican bishops act in this way?  I don’t doubt that many of the Global South bishops could and might, if they would.  But will they, should they?  If they think that the Anglican Communion is worth salvaging, they should.  But all this threatening (I will hope not mere “posturing”) not to come if +VGR is invited, if the Americans are invited, seems strange to me, as it seems to imply that they might think that the Anglican Communion is not worth salvaging; that seems, puzzling as it is, to give due credit to their intelligence and discernment, rather than disparaging them by imagining that they lack either the courage to do what it takes or the wit to know what they have to do if they want to do it.  They should come; they should come if the ECUSians come, if +VGR comes, if (nefas dictu!) +Spong and +Righter and +Swing and +Griz should come on a “golden agers guest pass”—and give then all the “Ascesius treatment.”

And let us heat no more of this <deleted> about “waiting for the Holy Spirit” which seems to be a refrain characteristic of those who confuse the Zeitgeist with the Holy Ghost, or else identify them, rather more to the advantage of the former Geist than of the latter.

I’m far from certain that such a scenario is even envisageable when the dramatis personae are Anglican bishops who, as such, have worn the Nessus’ Shirt of Erastianism (whether as in the “Established Church” or the “Church of the Establishment”) for so long that it seems to have become a “second nature” to them and transformed them into CEOs and/or chaplains to the Zeitgeist, save for men such as +Iker, +Schofield, +Ackerman and +Steenson (to all of whom I bid a “de longinquo te saluto” even if they can reply only “morituri te salutamus”) and a few others, maybe, to mention only Americans in ECUSA.

And perhaps it will disappoint Sarah to see that I have forborne for once drawing the accustomed “moral” from this tale.  Well, it is hard always to please everyone.

[109] Posted by William Tighe on 06-06-2007 at 05:35 PM • top

I would take the second last paragraph as a moral so I am not dissapointed.  Ladies and Gentlemen the Tiber beckons.

[110] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 06-06-2007 at 05:43 PM • top

Wow, William T.  Lots to read from you, and particularly good work.
I wonder if you could post it somewhere in its entirety.  Its not impossible to cut and paste I know, but sure would be a “handy” thing especially for an old “grannie”.

Blessings, for even fooling with us. LOL
Grannie Gloria

[111] Posted by Grandmother on 06-06-2007 at 05:46 PM • top

Of course, I defer to Prof. Tighe’s marvelous rehearsal of events in this story.  However, I would question some of his particular conclusions, or at least those that pertain to the actual questions I posed. Obviously, Arius himself was not an integral part of the “council”, since he was not a bishop.  Whether he came as a “defendant”, in the sense of a defendant at a trial, is doubtful, given the Emperor’s own desire not to degrade him and, from the imperial perspective, not to appear to favor too much one side over the other (at least at the outset of the gathering).  Furthermore, he came with what appeared on paper to be numerous episcopal supporters, who were well known as such, including, yes, some who had been previously condemned by more local councils.  The fact that almost all of them eventually signed the final decree said little about actual views (cf. Lambeth 1998 among many of the Americans), since they immediately went off and worked to subvert Nicea’s decisions.  However, their agreement was astonishing.  Arius, as was pointed out, was eventually restored and Alexander himself agreed to receive him back into communion, although Arius died first.  The Novationist bishop, as I understand it, was not “expelled” until well into the council.  The complex and messy story of the council’s aftermath, as Prof. Tighe describes it, seems to me to validate my own general point about the nature of conciliar reception, that takes place over time to the side of immediately and conclusively decided courses of action and discipline.  Is Anglicanism worth salvaging?  I think so;  although, as Prof. Tighe rightly intimates, it seems a long shot;  and in the perspective of Roman Catholicism, probably not worth the effort and contortions.  But yes, I too would be in favor of the “Ascesius treatment”, if done calmly and soberly.  In all of this, thank you, Prof. Tighe, for your careful analysis of the history.

[112] Posted by Ephraim Radner on 06-06-2007 at 06:33 PM • top

OK, Betty, now I confess to the worst of all possible misdemeanours—confusing TN with KY. Please forgive me and pass my greetings to your good people at St Francis in the Fields.

[113] Posted by zebra on 06-06-2007 at 06:38 PM • top

Thanks for the good words, Dr. Radner, but surely there is something wrong here:

“,,, and Alexander himself agreed to receive him back into communion, although Arius died first.”

as Alexander of Alexandria (Arius’s bishop) died in 327 and was succeeded by Athanasius, while Arius lived on, to die in a most unpleasant fashion as he was about to be restored to communion, in 336.  I think that the “Alexander” you have in mind is Alexander of Constantinople (Bishop from 314 to 337); but far from agreeing to receive Arius back into communion, as Constantine had charged him to do, he is said to have locked himself into the Church of St. Irene on the day before the “reconciliation” was to take place, and on which Arius died.

[114] Posted by William Tighe on 06-06-2007 at 06:46 PM • top

First—thanks very much, Fr. Radner, for another excellent piece that manages to transcend the immediate and ground us all in theology, Scripture, church history, and prayer.

Second—a question for some of the folks here who favor forgoing Lambeth and the Covenant process.  It’s pretty clear from this thread, and most of the other threads on this blog, that there’s a marked division of opinion.  And given that there are a lot of orthodox Anglicans in the pews that don’t post here, altogether, I’d imagine that there are a good number of conservative Anglicans who are hoping that the Covenant process will work.  (Incidentally, I just had a conversation with J.I. Packer, and he’s among them.) 

So, here’s the question: If that’s the case—then how would leaving now rather than in 2009 or 2010 (that is, if the whole Anglican shebang winds up breaking apart after all) make sense as a strategy?  Wouldn’t the numbers be too small?  Wouldn’t it just wind up fragmenting the orthodox and handing the Communion reins to the liberals?

I think Fr. Radner made a good point—this isn’t to say that some parishes, simply in order to survive as parishes and as a matter of pastoral care, may indeed need to leave prior to that point.  But that says little about overall strategy.  Prudentially it can sometimes make sense, but stragetically overall, the numbers clearly are in favor of the orthodox if most of us hang together.  So why not give it a shot?

[115] Posted by Jordan Hylden on 06-06-2007 at 07:41 PM • top

Jordan,

JI Packer is currently part of a “breakaway” in Canada. He has left already. Did you happen to ask him the same question?

The easy answer to your question another question: if the invitations remain and are not withdrawn, why on earth would anyone wait until 2009/10 in hopes that the communion process will produce a viable covenant when agreements and decisions already established are ignored and undermined. Why would a covenant have any more staying power than Lambeth 1.10, the Windsor Report, Dromantine or Tanzania communique’s? If the invitations stand the communion will have shown herself unable and unwilling to enforce discipline. There are no boundaries or limits.

There can be no real Church, unless there are consequences when that order is broken. There have been absolutely no consquences.

And, Jordan,  I am betting public repentance, a shorn head, and a hair shirt that there never will be.

[116] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 07:53 PM • top

*IF* we believe the Global South bishops will actually press on with what they began in Dar es Salaam, then that should be a good strategy. In Dar, the Prelates did what they haven’t ever done before (to my knowledge): they gave instructions to a province and imposed a deadline for a response. They began a process of authority which, if it succeeds, will change the Anglican Communion forever.

Isn’t it good to allow that process to either succeed or fail?

In faith, Dave

[117] Posted by dpeirce on 06-06-2007 at 07:54 PM • top

Dave, the problem is that what the primates started, ++Rowan has effectively ended. Unless, of course, he rescinds the invitations.

[118] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 07:56 PM • top

I’m rememebring that, at Dar, +++Rowan tried to stop the Prelates from debating TEC, but that ++Akinola &Co; wouldn’t sit down or shut up. Would they tamely roll over now?

Am I wrong in my memory?

In faith, Dave

[119] Posted by dpeirce on 06-06-2007 at 07:59 PM • top

No Dave,

You are absolutely right. The ABC wanted ++Akinola et al to simply “shut up” and agree with the utterly deceitful Sub Group report which would have ended the Windsor process completely. It was a published lie. It declared TEC Windsor Compliant. Fortunately, ++Akinola had the integrity to refuse this pressure. Otherwise, the Communion would not have made it out of Dar.

But ++Rowan has found a way to subvert Tanzania nevertheless.

[120] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 08:18 PM • top

I assume by that you mean the Lambeth invitations?

I’m not trying to be dense, but I don’t understand why the invitations as they were given out prevent ++Akinola and ++Orombi, etc, from pressing on against TEC after October 1 and at Lambeth. That is, if they have the will to press on, which they say they do.

They very well might lose in a standup with TEC, in which case all of you can do what has to be done. But they might win and, if they do, there will be a powerful precedent established: a province can go too far and be reeled in by the rest of the Communion or be expelled.

Isn’t that worth a shot?

In faith, Dave

[121] Posted by dpeirce on 06-06-2007 at 08:28 PM • top

Your post above, Matt, implies that the ABC has less integrity than Akinola.  Some of us conservatively moderate folk read that a lot differently and that reports, such as found in the TLC, do not list Nigeria as the No. 1 place for conservatives to flock to, seems to indicate that Akinola is not the poster child that neo-Conservatives paint him to be. 

I maintain, even though you did not respond, that Akinola and the Global South will create a new communion that will go by another name than “Anglican.”  Rowan will not let them take that name.  I maintain that there will be a split.  But my bets are that it will not be between TEC and the Anglican Communion but between the Anglican Communion and the Global South.  And if Akinola and kind do not attend Lambeth, that will truly mark the beginning of the schism.  My question then is where would someone, say, stuck in Robinson’s diocese go to if they can neither stomach Robinson or Akinola?

[122] Posted by Vintner on 06-06-2007 at 08:30 PM • top

Chris+ No apologies necessary on the KY/TN mixup. (I’m not a native, so no offense was taken).  I remember your great presentation at St. Francis as a fine moment for truth in the revisionist Diocese of Ky. and was grateful to God for sending you to us!

[123] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 06-06-2007 at 08:32 PM • top

Dave,

Non-Windsor bishops do not belong at Lambeth. That defeats the entire purpose of every meeting since the WR was published. The invitiations subvert the entire Windsor process.

Suggs, I think you read me correctly

[124] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-06-2007 at 08:38 PM • top

OK, now I see where you’re coming from. I disagree but you’re on a level way above me.

However, why not pull out now? I realize you and your parish are doing that (prayers your way), but I mean all the orthodox bishops and parishes stuck in TEC. Everybody all at once so as to overload Mr Beers.

But, then, getting everybody moving in the same direction might be like trying to push a piece of string.

In faith, Dave

[125] Posted by dpeirce on 06-06-2007 at 08:44 PM • top

Because, Dave, a big unanswered question is “Who are the real orthodox Anglicans?” as if real orthodox Anglicans have ever in history existed.  They haven’t.  There is no core structure of beliefs or codes that one MUST adhere to in order to be considered an Anglican which is both our blessing and our curse.  So with the covenant, which I believed is doomed from the start, you have the beginning of the end.  You have a set of codes or rules to follow with the majority being able to exclude the minority.  Now the problem is, “Who is going to be the majority at Lambeth?”  Not the Global South should they fail to go.  And if they fail to go, the covenant is a no go to be discussed for eternity, and THEY get to keep the title “Anglican.”  THEN the orthodox in the US are neither Episcopalian nor are they Anglican.  So what does that make them?

I’m rehashing a Sunday School discussion in the above paragraph.  You should have been there.  Very lively!  Someone asked, “Who owns the Anglican trademark?”  The conclusion was everybody…and nobody.

[126] Posted by Vintner on 06-06-2007 at 09:04 PM • top

Smuggs, I agree that there’s no authority structure, and that the proposed covenant will probably turn out like dill pickles. But the simple fact that the Prelates in Dar were able to issue a demand on TEC with a response deadline is more exciting for me than 5 covenants.And,  I didn’t quite understand whether you thought the Global South could win or lose against TEC, but it looks as a practical matter that nothing decisive will be done until October, if then.

So, in a way, the strategy offered by Dr Radner will turn out to be the default anyhow. A shame, maybe, or maybe a good thing. “We live in interesting times”.

In faith, Dave

[127] Posted by dpeirce on 06-06-2007 at 09:16 PM • top

Thanks all for the heartfelt and informative discussion. I’ve agreed with Matt+ that “Non-Windsor bishops do not belong at Lambeth. ... The invitiations subvert the entire Windsor process,” and therefore it’s been hard to support the ACI calls for more patience. Maybe it’s just late now and I’m groggy, but there may well be another fitting step or two for the GS bishops before breaking away. (Yes, I think it is indeed somewhat more likely for the ABC to split with the GS than with TEC.)

I think the Primates have cause for asking +Rowan to explain himself in regard to the invitations and subverting DeS, Windsor, and Lambeth itself. Some sort of censure or call for resignation may be in order (before Lambeth, or at). Although this may seem far-fetched to some, perhaps it is what “good order” calls for in this case. If the Anglican Communion is to be saved, there is no doubt it needs pruning, including anti-gospel manifestations touching the highest “instruments”: heretical Primates, the subversive ACC, anti-Christic Lambeth bishops (e.g. consecrators, promoters of VGR, SS blesings), and finally the apparent sabotage of the ABC. The prospect of discipline need not come to each equally, but it should not be off the table.

If there is enough faith and courage in the Anglican Communion to hold even the highest prelate accountable, then it would be worth saving, and premature for the GS to back out now.

[128] Posted by alfonso on 06-06-2007 at 09:23 PM • top

Have you noticed something happening lately?  It’s no longer “The Episcopal Church of the United States of America (ECUSA),” - it’s not even just TEC, no - it’s now “The Episcopal Church of the Americas” - (TECA). 

bb

[129] Posted by BabyBlue on 06-06-2007 at 09:25 PM • top

Windsor does not an Anglican make.  Rowan is not answerable to the primates.  The primates are not answerable to Rowan.  They can no more ask for his resignation than an another TEC bishop can ask for Robinson’s.  There are no tools for pruning.

Thus, as I have said before and which you restated, Alfonso:

  (Yes, I think it is indeed somewhat more likely for the ABC to split with the GS than with TEC.)

Anyone else want to hop aboard this particular opinion train?

[130] Posted by Vintner on 06-06-2007 at 09:32 PM • top

BB, doesn’t it just mean TEC is getting ready to establish its own Communion? It would certainly take a lot of the rot out of the Anglican Communion. But TEC is good at its own brand of evangelism, and will be sending out her missionaries whether from within or without the Communion.

Smuggs, the Prelates at Dar were able to make +++Rowan do some things he definitely didn’t want to do. Actually, He has set things up, intentionally or otherwise, so that interesting things can happen in October and at Lambeth… *IF* the Global South has the will to press on with what they’ve started. It’s certainly possible Cantuar will go with TEC, but it’s also very possible he will go with faith and growth. He doesn’t want England to be head of a dying institution. We simply don’t know which way he will go and will have to wait and see.

????

In faith, Dave

[131] Posted by dpeirce on 06-06-2007 at 09:51 PM • top

No, Akinola pressured him into doing things he didn’t want to do.  Rowan wanted 100% compliance.  Akinola wasn’t going to do that.  So he went along but…those invitations.  Those invitations are what are going to be Akinola’s undoing.  September 30th will come and go.  Some churches will try and break and suffer the wrath of diocese who have larger pockets then they do.  Even in CT, where one of the CT 6 priests said in an article regarding Trinity, Bristol, that his church is not leaving TEC but rather are staying on to be a witness within it, whatever that means, but we’re seeing a lack of fire that once existed post-Tanzania.  The absence of Matt’s desired discipline as evidenced by the invitations means the Global South did not win the day in the Anglican Communion.  They may break.  But I fear they will certainly be on their own as whatever break off group that splinters from TEC will not be able to support them the way TEC or the Anglican Communion has.

Dave, I believe that the liberals have won the Anglican Communion, especially if the Global South do not come to Lambeth.  They won.  The orthodox lost.  When the dust settles, Anglicanism will continue to mean toleration for differences of opinions and practices and it’ll still be as muddied as ever.

And boy, will the lawyers get rich…

[132] Posted by Vintner on 06-06-2007 at 10:05 PM • top

You may very well be right that the Global South won’t have the will to press on with what they started, and that the orthodox have lost. It will become apparent in October, and certainly at Lambeth; until then we probably will keep guessing and speculating. It would be a shame to see my old Church expire with a pitiful whimper.

In faith, Dave

[133] Posted by dpeirce on 06-06-2007 at 10:21 PM • top

Boys:

The AC without the orthodox (not only in the numbers of souls and positive evangelism) is a dying Communion - and will expire with a pitiful whimper.  The orthodox ‘remnant’ will be the winner, for souls,the faith once delivered and worlwide Christianity.

And this will happen only BECAUSE the GS and Common Cause leadership does have the will (and dare I say willingness at some personal peril) to do the right thing.  Unlike so many of our Institutionalists - Windsor Bishops included.

St. Paul admonished us in Romans 12:9b “Hate that which is evil and cling to that which is good”.  ECUSA has been found wanting - and with no (in my humble opinion) hope of repentance.  This is evil.  And as Matt+ has so ably noted, ad nauseum, without ‘discipline’, the AC is an accomplice / enabler and must be painted with th same brush.

[134] Posted by Wilkie on 06-06-2007 at 10:48 PM • top

Dr. Seitz,

I apologize for the way I strung my words together. I should have reread them more carefully. I would never want to imply that Dr. Radner or almost any orthodox parish priest was out of touch with reality and dwelling in a parallel universe. A parish priest sees enough of the real world in a half day to cause me to go into overload if I were in that role.

My comment about a parallel universe was not about Dr. Radner’s supposed place of residence. It was that the Anglican Communion upon which he based his paper did not seem to align at all with the Anglican Communion of which I am aware.

What I did intend to say was that the Anglican Communion to which Dr. Radner refers and his recommendation to proceed with a fully attended Lambeth which could be expected to operate in a conciliar manner, followed by a positive response to conciliar authority does not seem to align at all with the Anglican Communion that currently appears to be real. The Anglican Communion currently has a relatively small but powerful collection of rebel apostate bishops who unfortunately control one province, TEC. If they go to Lambeth and if the rest of the Communion bishops attend Lambeth, we might get some good-sounding resolutions or even a nicely constructed covenant accepted by the majority of the bishops there. What difference will that make in the USA? None - unless a large number of the rebel bishops have conversion and repentance experiences. Otherwise, they will return from Lambeth, repudiate the decisions of Lambeth (or simply ignore them as they do now), and continue with their scorched-earth campaign against the orthodox and their strange theology and practice.

Prior to 2003, our parish had a history of growing and initiating daughter missions. After 2003, even though we continued to be a voice for orthodoxy and continued to support and be involved with a variety of local, national and international missions, we were hemorrhaging members and the several missions we had recently founded were struggling, spending way too much time explaining to potential new people, “Don’t worry - we are not THAT part of the Episcopal church.” Our missions churches were the first to depart - to Uganda. They simply could not have survived otherwise. Now they are doing well. More recently, we and our neighboring churches have joined CANA in order to have solid Anglican oversight by the Anglican Church of Nigeria. We and the Provinces of Uganda and Nigeria know that this is a temporary measure until a replacement province can be established in the USA.

I do not see how inviting all the rebel bishops from TEC to Lambeth will accelerate in any way the creation of a full orthodox Anglican province in the USA. I see such an invitation as just one more evidence to the church and to the world that we are merely having some minor family squabble and it will all blow over and die down sooner of later. 

On a slightly different note - some recent postings have questioned whether the GS bishops will have the will to press on. The bishops in many parts of the GS have to face severe, even life-threatening difficulties much worse than they have had to face as they have come to offer us aid. As long as we are willing to act decisively, they will not abandon us.

[135] Posted by Bill Cool on 06-06-2007 at 10:48 PM • top

Smuggs

You are right to suggest that under the scenario you suggest the liberals will have “won” possession of the institution.  But the scenario you posit will bring the conflict right into the CoE.  The Evangelical part of the CoE (the part with money, kids, and growth) is not simply going to watch that happen and do nothing.  The CoE will start to implode. 

Neither will you keep for long the more conservative churches that yet still value a relationship with Canterbury.  Once it starts to fracture, the communion will not hold long. So you will get your liberal communion - consisting of the liberal remnant that stays.  But its constituent churches will have more bishops then laity, and will be marked by terminal decline.

What do you suppose this liberal communion will do besides sit in obscure irrelevance, and issue unread policy statements on the issue du jour?  Its membership is old.  It does not evangelize.  It does not reproduce.  It has long since lost its children.  There is no sizeable group of religious “tolerant, inclusive” progressives waiting to fill the pews.  If this liberal communion cannot be juxtaposed against an orthodox opponent, who will care that it exists? 

carl

[136] Posted by carl on 06-06-2007 at 10:52 PM • top

I fail to see where the Holy Spirit has operated in any of the meetings and dialogues of TEC and the CofE, unless one takes the view that the Holy Spirit has caused the various heresies and apostasies to finally come to a head like a ripe boil ready to burst.  The place where it seems the Holy Spirit is operating is in the scriptural focus of CANA,  AMIA, REC, FACA and the Southern Cone orthodox;  and, that is NOW, not next century.  Sometimes we must leap frog over the dead or dying bodies of the heretics and get on with a Christian mission.

[137] Posted by FrankV on 06-06-2007 at 11:35 PM • top

Bill Cool, I envy you. Kendall posted this letter from Father Ephraim and it describes many of the same post GC 2003 problems.

[138] Posted by robroy on 06-07-2007 at 12:58 AM • top

I’m curious William Witt.  If the Lambeth Meeting is a “council of the Anglican Communion” and there are no disciplinary options at all [which there aren’t] other than non-invitation to Lambeth . . . then why on earth is it “important that all bishops show up to Lambeth, including the Global South”.

I’ve been away for twenty-four hours.  What a discussion this has been!

I’ve believed since before Lambeth 98 that a split in the Anglican Communion is inevitable.  I naively thought after Lambeth 98 that there would be consequences for ECUSA’s intransigence. I was wrong.  I have, however, seen the Global South grow a backbone in the intervening time.  I remember being absolutely disgusted with the results of Primates meetings leading up to GC 2003.

Since GC 2003, however, the Primates have come through.  As at Lambeth 98 and Tanzania, I have no doubt that (if they attend) the Primates will impose their own agenda on Lambeth 2008, and the scheming of such as Kearon will be thwarted.  It is not going to be a tea party.  It is clear that TEC will reject DES in September, and I believe the Primates will respond.

At that point, the split will be obvious and inevitable to all.  The only question is whether the split will be between TECA (thanks, BB!) and the rest of the Communion or North vs. Global South.  RW’s action (or inaction) will determine that.  And I really can’t predict how he will act.  If RW responds after Lambeth as he has after Dromantine and after DES, then the split will be North/South.

But if is important for all orthodox bishops to attend so that Lambeth can release a clear unambiguous statement.  If RW ignores that (say by treating an excommunicate TECA as if they were still in communion), then he will be asking for the North/South split.

[139] Posted by William Witt on 06-07-2007 at 06:09 AM • top

This, Mr Kennedy, is absurd. Though it does help me understand your mental processes. Only the ABC has the authority to invite/gather. We shall see whether he takes counsel with the Primates about the ultimate fate of the invitations. Get out your razor and throw away your regular shirts if you think he is just out to stop the will of the Primates Meeting. Absurd.

Dave, the problem is that what the primates started, ++Rowan has effectively ended. Unless, of course, he rescinds the invitations.

[140] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 06:14 AM • top

Sorry, Dr Rob Roy, I just find all the confident summaries of a Primates Meeting no one here attended a bit galling. FWIW, the accounts I get are very different. I have been away from this thread and will be away again today. God bless. I am sure your patients are well cared for!

[141] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 06:21 AM • top

Also all these thread can get all knotted up together, like a bird’s nest.

[142] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 06-07-2007 at 06:23 AM • top

PS—I sent out an apology to Dr Rob Roy but I guess it landed on another thread.

In the UK, ‘Dr’ is a title held by lecturers. I am actually a Professor. ‘But you can call me Dave…’

I did sincerely mean a call to AB Gomez would be helpful. One gets a very different take from him…

[143] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 06:38 AM • top

Well done Professor Dave and keep up the good work.  LOL

One noticeable thing is the very positive and encouraging effect on others you and others posting on the blogs has had over the last few days.  This is quite apart from the quality and clarity of debate.

[144] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 06-07-2007 at 06:45 AM • top

Oops, there it is.

God bless you, Betty Payne. Hope all is well at St Francis.

I realise this is a very intense time. I am confident, from sources I have, that +RDW has always intended to take counsel with the Primates about invitations; that the Primates intend to review the responses to Dar from the TEC HOB; that +RDW made provisional invitations in order to go on sabbatical; that +RDW was assisted in Dar by conservative Primates in drawing up the plenary statement called the communique, and did not seek to block them; that he judged the CA Principles good thresholds for all to hold to, and these included Lambeth 1.10, Dromantine, TWR, et al.

More I cannot say. I have tried to encourage, but based upon information I judge completely reliable. I look forward to our work at Oxford in July, with conservative C of E Bishops and esp with AB Drexel Gomez.

Off to today’s duties.
Mr Seitz

[145] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 06:46 AM • top

Father Seitz,
Thank you for all the time you have invested in these threads.
And thank you for:

I am confident, from sources I have, that +RDW has always intended to take counsel with the primates about invitations; that the primates intend to review the responses to Dar from the TEC HOB; that +RDW made provisional invitations in order to go on sabbatical; that +RDW was assisted in Dar by conservative primates in drawing up the plenary statement called the communique, and did not seek to block them; that he judged the CA Principles good thresholds for all to hold to, and these included Lambeth 1.10, Dromantine, TWR, et al.

I hope Matt+ reads that.  That is what we’ve been hoping you would say since the thread got started. 
God bless you and Father Radner and Father Turner and prayers indeed for your upcoming work in Oxford.
TJ
(At this point, I am not sure who is a Dr., who is a Mr. and who is a Ven. Rev. Dr. Mr.- I am just a Mr.)

[146] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-07-2007 at 07:11 AM • top

Matt+,

Just promise us that if Lambeth goes well and discipline is enacted,  you’ll follow up on your promise of public confession, and indeed eat your crow in a public manner.

[147] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-07-2007 at 07:25 AM • top

Dr. Seitz,

It is interesting to me how quick you are to castigate the commenters here for their presumption and criticism and yet how quick you are to take a condescending tone and to belittle. Perhaps the two are connected?

I am not sure what you are calling “absurd”? The bit about the head-shaving…in which case you were obviously not in on the joke carried over from another thread…or my assertion that the ABC is not at all on board with the idea of disciplining TEC.

As you, I believe, should know very well, the ABC was quite serious in supporting the Sub-Group report at Tanzania and not at all pleased with ++Akinola et al’s refusal to accept it. The sub-group report was a bald faced lie. It suggested a level of compliance that did not and does not exist within TEC and would have put an end to the disciplinary aspect of the Windsor Process. The Archbishop of Canterbury had this report in hand months before Tanzania and characterized it, in letters to the primates, as a report that was not favorable to TEC. But he did not release it for primatial review until the very first day of the Dar meeting and then pushed hard to have it adopted.

That is simply fact.

And, as the meeting progressed, he, the liberal primates and even the more moderate conservative primates were pushing for a limited form of the Tanzania Communique which, interestingly, would have looked alot like the original ACI proposal in that it would have called for the immediate cessation of all interventions.

It was ++Akinola’s intransigence with regard to the deficiency of TEC’s response and the requirement that they comply by a given deadline and his refusal to accept any plan that would have cut off exta-jurisdictional entities like CANA and the AMiA that won the day in Tanzania.

But now, if these invitations stand, Tanzania means nothing. The Primatial Council, Pastoral Scheme, Windsor Disciplinary processes etc…will mean nothing. Why?

Because they will have been either actively or passively subverted by the ABC himself.

Absurd indeed.

[148] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-07-2007 at 07:29 AM • top

I have read it TJ, but I do not trust his sources…and for very very good reasons.

[149] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-07-2007 at 07:31 AM • top

Jeremy, it was not wholly a joke…I’ll gladly do it and with joy.

[150] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-07-2007 at 07:34 AM • top

Matt+
I understand where you are coming from, and your logic.  One of the great misfortunes here is that so many within the church are keeping secrets, starting with ++Rowan himself.  Even I hold a few of them, things told to me in strictest confidence by one person or another.  We all have sources, but I think no one has enough pieces of the puzzle to know what the final picture will look like.
  For myself, I am just trying to keep faith until October 1, and hoping I have the courage to do what God has given me to do here in this little parish.  After all, regardless of the machinations of bishops and archbishops, in the end His will shall be done. 
Peace be with you Matt+.  From what I have read, I understand your parish may be seeking a safer harbor.  God bless one and all.

[151] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-07-2007 at 08:06 AM • top

I’ll drive over to Binghamton with a smile on my face and hold the clippers myself, with great joy!  I’ll bring you an itchy sweater, too.  Glad you kept your sense of humor through all this.  I think we all pray you’re wrong, but you might be right.  We’ll see!

[152] Posted by Jeremy B on 06-07-2007 at 08:10 AM • top

For those who quote me, I don’t mind being critiqued on this list, but if you’re going to “quote” me and then critique me, it makes sense to quote me accurately.  I did not say that Radner+ is arguing something simple forthe Africans. I said he is arguing something simple to the Africans.  The point: show up and vote.  You have the numbers; you will win.  Dr. Tighe is arguing the same logic.  Go to Lambeth, grab the agenda, morph the “conference” into a council, call it authoritative, then vote.  Radner’s image is just a little more theological… 2 Lambeths in a row, therefore historicity, therefore obvious work of the Holy Spirit.  I have far more respect for Dr. Tighe’s approach.  It’s flat out ecclesiastical politics.  I liked the strategy though of the 500 new Nigerian bishops.  In fact, I actually thought that might be one of the reasons the ABC issued the invites early..to maintain that the sees didn’t exist when the invites went out and prevent +Akinola from packing the court.

So no, I’m not suggesting that the Africans are less than very bright and political ly savy. (+Akinola’s degree is an MTS.)  Radner+ is just providing a theological argument that might fly for a power grab at Lambeth.  It doesn’t matter to me whether TEC does it or the GS does it, it’s a power grab none-the-less and has nothing to do with the action of the Spirit.  Thanks to Dr Tighe who is honest enough to do the math and not pretend that it’s something else.  Was there an SJ after his name somewhere in his past?

[153] Posted by EmilyH on 06-07-2007 at 08:16 AM • top

It’s all very curious:

One article here suggests that Canon Kearon [who seems to be trying out the throne while he is caretaking it in the Magician’s absence] is talking about dishing out more invites to all and sundry, particularly liberals: 
http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/3454/

Meanwhile TECexec is appears to be making plans to liberate diocese and parishes from leaders who don’t agree with them:
http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/3458/
while making plans for an alternative communion.


Meanwhile Episcopal Cafe gleefully contemplates Evangelicals spinning off somewhere or other leaving TEC with the booty and in communion with the Church of England:
http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/anglican_communion/future_speculations_about_the.html

Lucky old us

Maître Pageantmaster

[154] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 06-07-2007 at 08:38 AM • top

I was disappointed with Prof Seitz’s response to my posting which I felt and do feel were and are valid objections. I appreciate the apology. I have said that I have disagreements with the ACI strategy but respect their members. I have supported the ACI financially and encourage others to do the same. I am honored to be in the company of Father Matt.

As to titles, I am a surgeon and in the British system, I, too, would be referred to as “Mr.” to distinguish from those doctors which treat with medicines (“drug pushers” as we affectionally call them). When I was a mathematician, I got asked whether I was a “real doctor” or merely a PhD? Maybe that was influential why I decided to go back to medical school and get the MD.  smile

[155] Posted by robroy on 06-07-2007 at 09:07 AM • top

Any of the ACI guys and gals out there,

In light of Ephraim’s post and the follow-ups, does the invitation to Lambeth continue to function as a “membership defining event” for purposes of the Anglican Communion?  It would appear that all the talk about Nicea and past “councils” would imply that the invitations do NOT represent membership in the AC (or to put it another way, being invited does NOT mean you and your bishop are in communion with the ABC).  Any help understanding this point is greatly appreciated.

[156] Posted by Widening Gyre on 06-07-2007 at 11:34 AM • top

I’m plowing through—belatedly—all of these comments.

This comment, though, by Dave, begs for response:

RE: “But that doesn’t necessarily obviate the larger point: you wear a collar in one of the most heretical denominations in the US. You have obviously long ago come to terms with that—but my question is, why the Huge Principled Stand on associational purity now? Why not years ago? What is it about Lambeth 2008 that’s any different than, for instance, Lambeth 1998?”

This is similar to questions from revisionists who say “why now—who over this issue” to which the quick response is “why not!”

There’s no reason to imply that just because no stance has been taken in the past, means that no stance can honorably be taken in the future.  Obviously people decide to take stands every day, where they had not in the past.  I know that Matt has answered this question with the reply that he intends to leave.  But . . . even were he not to intend to leave, the principle is not “don’t ever take a stand on anything, because you never have in the past.”

Jordan Hylden asks this question: “If that’s the case—then how would leaving now rather than in 2009 or 2010 (that is, if the whole Anglican shebang winds up breaking apart after all) make sense as a strategy?  Wouldn’t the numbers be too small?  Wouldn’t it just wind up fragmenting the orthodox and handing the Communion reins to the liberals?”

Jordan—those who are “leaving now” are those who already believe that the Communion reins are in the hands of the liberals.  So that’s why they are “leaving now”.  Those who believe that the Windsor process has been proven to be a fraud [and I am rapidly hurtling to that conclusion myself] have no reason to imagine, then, that the Covenant process will be nothing more than a fraud—and as such, the departure would actually not take place in 2009 or 2010, but as the “process” slowly ground forward, after ECUSA violated the covenant at its GC 2009.  Not for an instant should any of us suppose that ECUSA would then be x’d from the communion.  Oh no—we would have to then “give them another chance”, ask for a repudiation by a certain deadline, have more Primates meetings, meet to discern what their response was by the new deadline, have political battles as to whether their response was actually positive or negative, have reports drawn up about how it was really positive—no, I think we can safely assume, based on the past four ridiculous years, that after 2009, there would be four more years of foot-dragging in response to the ECUSA’s clear repudiation of the “covenant process”.

William Witt says much the same thing as Jordan. 

“At that point, the split will be obvious and inevitable to all.  The only question is whether the split will be between TECA (thanks, BB!) and the rest of the Communion or North vs. Global South.  RW’s action (or inaction) will determine that.  And I really can’t predict how he will act.  If RW responds after Lambeth as he has after Dromantine and after DES, then the split will be North/South.

But if is important for all orthodox bishops to attend so that Lambeth can release a clear unambiguous statement.  If RW ignores that (say by treating an excommunicate TECA as if they were still in communion), then he will be asking for the North/South split.”

Why on earth would we think that RW would act any differently than he has already acted re: Dar Es Salaam and indeed after the clear action of Lambeth 1998???  “If”????  If the Lambeth invitations hold, then it is clear that RW means no action himself as a “TEC excommunicate” action.

WW, I still don’t get it.  RW has—repeatedly—refused to allow the Anglican Communion to discipline itself.  If the invitations hold, then RW will have so refused for FIVE LONG YEARS.  So why would we think anything would change even if the bishops of the Anglican Communion issued yet another “clear unambiguous statement”.

I’m going to repeat what I said two days ago.

If some of the Primates decided to not attend the Lambeth Meeting, I hope they will go whole hog and announce their departure from the Anglican Communion.  This should not be a fruitless “symbolic” absence from the meeting—as of course RW and the ECUSAns will be pleased at their absence and it is true that their absence will leave the Communion unguarded.

Rather—if they leave the Communion unguarded at Lambeth—let them also announce that since the Communion has manifestly failed to discipline itself, they are leaving.  The Communion should let them know if at some time in the future, it succeeds in establishing some order and integrity.  But until such time—unseen or imaginary—those two Primates really can’t be bothered with the Communion as it stands.

That’s not a “symbolic” gesture—it’s the real deal.  The Communion needs to establish discipline.  Since it will not, the two Primates need to leave the Communion, if they absent themselves from its primary meeting.

[157] Posted by Sarah on 06-07-2007 at 01:48 PM • top

Dear Mr Kennedy, sorry for the confusion! Email can do that. I was taking exception to the statement:

Dave, the problem is that what the primates started, ++Rowan has effectively ended.

My error was in assuming you meant this to be taken seriously as a statement of fact; hence my use of the term ‘absurd.’ Instead, I gather it was a strong opinion of yours, to which you are of course entitled and to which a charge of ‘absurd’ would then sound personal.

We have absolutely no way at all to verify as fact that Rowan Williams has effectively ended what the Primates have started. That would be absurd. On the other hand, if it is just a strong opinion of yours, I’d be helped if you just made that clear. ‘It is my own very strong view that +RDW has acted in such a way as to call into question the hard work of the Primates’—OK, that is not absurd, it is a strong opinion from Mr Kennedy, based upon information he has assembled in a certain way.

I will also take the other prognostications in the same vein—strong views of Mr Matt Kennedy.

Now one thing I do think ‘may’ entitle one to use the term ‘absurd’ is your view on my sources, stated above with the same high confidence—how could you possibly know who I have and have not spoken to about Dar es Salaam? My view is not to be trusted, you opine. You have very, very good reasons, too.

I guess this is the kind of logic I can’t track well.

Not to worry, I am sure this entire mess will work itself out in God’s good time. Thanks for your hard work here on SF. Mr C Seitz

[158] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 02:02 PM • top

Hi Dr Roy—it is a convoluted thread and I am having a busy day. What is it you’d like me to respond to? I’ll give it my best shot. Not sure whether there is more heat than light about…Mr C.

[159] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 02:04 PM • top

Sarah: “Rather—if they leave the Communion unguarded at Lambeth—let them also announce that since the Communion has manifestly failed to discipline itself, they are leaving.  The Communion should let them know if at some time in the future, it succeeds in establishing some order and integrity.  But until such time—unseen or imaginary—those two primates really can’t be bothered with the Communion as it stands.

That’s not a “symbolic” gesture—it’s the real deal.  The Communion needs to establish discipline.  Since it will not, the two primates need to leave the Communion, if they absent themselves from its primary meeting.”

You’re blowing up, my dear.  If Lambeth is as ++RW says, then there is nothing to “leave unguarded” as the decisions are meaningless and unenforceable anyway.  Take 1:10 from 1998.
And why do you insist on “these TWO”?  I believe and pray that there are more than TWO who have a problem with the invites as they stand.  All Primates / Bishops can and should take the action they feel compelled / called to take, based on their reading of Scriture and the indwelling of the Spirit.  If that means a symbolic absence for some, based on proper stewardship of time and money or just their need to not associate with the heretics again, I believe they have the wisdom and right to make that call.  Would I prefer that the entire GS and all non-heretical Provinces / Diocese / Parishes make the move away from ++RW today?  Absolutely!  But we do not have any right to dictate to these men of God a “take or leave it” ultimatum at this point.  They are the only reason there is a reasonable remnant of Anglican Orthodox in N. America as it is.

[160] Posted by Wilkie on 06-07-2007 at 02:59 PM • top

WW, I still don’t get it.  RW has—repeatedly—refused to allow the Anglican Communion to discipline itself.  If the invitations hold, then RW will have so refused for FIVE LONG YEARS.  So why would we think anything would change even if the bishops of the Anglican Communion issued yet another “clear unambiguous statement”.

Sarah, I need to be clear what I would mean for Lambeth 2008 to issue a “clear unambiguous statement.”  I don’t mean a clear unambiguous statment like Lambeth 98, but a clear unambiguous statement something like the following:

By its action at GC 2003, TEC failed to uphold the teaching of the Communion, and has been given the following opportunities to turn back (Windsor, Dromantine, ACC 2005, DES, etc.). 

In the HOB meeting following DES, and its response to the September 30 deadline, TEC has made clear that it has no intention to turn back and has willfully chosen to “walk apart” from the Anglican Communion.  The Anglican Communion regretfully accepts this decision.  Those American bishops who have expressed their willingness to be Windsor-complaint will be recognized as being in Communion, and the sees of the rest will be considered vacant.

I also added a followup post that seems to have gotten lost in the ether of cyberspace so I will repeat it.

The Primates also need to be clear with RW that if there are no consequences, there will be consequences.

You added:

That’s not a “symbolic” gesture—it’s the real deal.  The Communion needs to establish discipline.  Since it will not, the two primates need to leave the Communion, if they absent themselves from its primary meeting.

And that’s my point as well, although I don’t think the primates should stay home.  I believe that Lambeth really is the last chance to save the Communion.  If Lambeth releases only a “symbolic” statement, then the Communion is doomed.  As I stated:

If RW ignores that (say by treating an excommunicate TECA as if they were still in communion), then he will be asking for the North/South split.

In which case, the Global South Primates should take RW at his word, and grant his request. 

If RW’s invitations to non-Windsor bishops hold regardless of what happens on Sept 30—and I think it a quite likely scenario that they will—then it will be up to the Primates alone to discipline TEC.  They can do that at Lambeth or they can attempt to do it by staying away.  I would hope they would at least try to do it at Lambeth.  But to do that, they need to at least be there.

Christopher Seitz, who has a lot more connections than I do, and for whom I have the utmost respect, assures us that RW is acting in consort with conservative Primates in sending out the invitations.  I certainly hope he is right, and that the ABC is not taking us all for a ride. 

But if he is, a Lambeth statement that is not merely a pronouncement, but also a judgment, will be the way of forcing RW to respond.  He has stated repeatedly that he cannot discipline TEC—that only the Primates can do that. Then let them do it.  If he then ignores their action by treating it as if it had not happened, then the decision by the Global South Primates to recognize one of their own as the first among equals will not have been done without having first crossed every “i” and dotted every “t.”

There’s an old saying to the effect that nothing improves the powers of concentration like the sight of a hangman’s noose.  I still think (or at least hope) that RW is not beyond having his powers of concentration improved at Lambeth.

But if you foresee another possible scenario that would be the “real deal,” I’m all ears.

[161] Posted by William Witt on 06-07-2007 at 03:01 PM • top

“Christopher Seitz, who has a lot more connections than I do, and for whom I have the utmost respect, assures us that RW is acting in consort with conservative primates in sending out the invitations.  I certainly hope he is right, and that the ABC is not taking us all for a ride.”

Where was that assurance given?

[162] Posted by Going Home on 06-07-2007 at 03:10 PM • top

Brother Witt:

If as you say (with considerably more faith in +RW changing his ways to date) that:

“If RW’s invitations to non-Windsor bishops hold regardless of what happens on Sept 30—and I think it a quite likely scenario that they will—then it will be up to the primates alone to discipline TEC.”

Why put out the invites before 9/30?  And as a Orthodox Primate, why accept such an invite before seeing if the ‘hold’?  And if it falls to the Primates, why not a simpler, quicker, and less costly (time and cash) meeting of the Primates.  Or, using the outline of DarS - make the proclamation that TECUSA Bishops who have not complied are “out” and a new Province / APO is established.

Why go to the Jamboree?

[163] Posted by Wilkie on 06-07-2007 at 03:17 PM • top

Discipline needs to occur, but the one who needs to be disciplined is Rowan Williams.  His power to invite to Lambeth matters only if people show up.  Decline the invitation, and slavish enthrallment to Lambeth disappears.

[164] Posted by Chazaq on 06-07-2007 at 03:31 PM • top

Amen, brother Chazaq! Three cheers for ABp Orombi.

To the “RW is acting in consort with conservative primates in sending out the invitations.” It is obvious that he is not acting in conjunction with ABp’s Orombi, Akinola and Venables. The orthodox being played for fools, again. Perhaps, Gomez and some others? More secret pacts and machinations? The end result is delay, delay, delay while the orthodox hemorrhage. The ACI is losing trust among the orthodox almost as much as the ABC.

[165] Posted by robroy on 06-07-2007 at 04:11 PM • top

I suspect what my inestimable friend Wm Witt means is, *I do not for one second believe that +RDW will make the final invitations without knowing the counsel of Primates*. He is not required to do that, but his modus operandi thus far has been to allow the Primates Meeting the space to grow and take charge, because this has been the directive of the other Instruments. Bully for him.
The matter that concerns me is not Lambeth invitations—I don’t think we know enough there; it is a sideshow for people wanting instead to have something centre-stage as they weigh up decisions about staying and going, etc. The matter that concerns me, and has concerned me for many years now, is the integrity of the Primates Meeting as the lead player of the Instruments (and I believe +RDW believes this as well; it resonates with his interest in the Eastern Church and conciliarism). Therefore, my chief concern is the prosecution of the Dar communique. I cannot—I repeat myself here—see how TEC can fumble its way to moratoria on SSB. And lacking this, it seems to this sinner impossible/improbable for the TEC HOB to be invited en masse to Lambeth in violation of Lambeth 1.10. But that may be too logic-driven for some.
So, I believe Wm Witt hears me rightly when I say I believe without a shadow of a doubt that the Primates will play a crucial role in the final inviting process—something that is not required of the ABC, but something he will endorse and accept all the same.
One final word. These are very trying times for all. My hair shirt has been on for a decade already and whilst I have gotten used to it, most others say it stinks to high heaven. People are feeling the need to make hard decisions about what to do. I know I have made quite a few already. If one is making a judgement that ‘it is all over, time to leave, Canterbury is kaput’ I understand the strength of feeling that is involved there. But I also know that this will colour how one reflects on the current Communion and its future—how could that be anything else?
So when these discussions about facts and options and possible futures get unrolled, it will invariably be under the pall of hard choices and personal costs of various kinds. In the light of this, one cannot pretend that this will be an arena for neutral analysis. I accept that. Once one has decided it is time to go, this affects things. Unsurprisingly.
God’s peace. Mr C

[166] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 04:26 PM • top

Guess it all has to do with what one means by ‘the orthodox’!

[167] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 04:41 PM • top

...the principle is not “don’t ever take a stand on anything, because you never have in the past.”

I didn’t intend to imply that—and perhaps I should abandon this line of argument. I rashly called Matt+ out (and promoted him to bishop in the same post) on an implied hypocrisy vis a vis his objections to the Lambeth invitations and his participation in TEC and her General Convention. It was a bit of a sucker’s argument, and in poor taste to boot. But I’ll duck out with a disclaimer—I don’t feel and didn’t mean to imply that because he hadn’t objected in the past he shouldn’t now.

[168] Posted by Dave on 06-07-2007 at 05:26 PM • top

The overriding modus operandi is to forestall any substantive consequences of the TEC for their continuing intransigence and arrogant defiance of the patient and polite requests of the rest of the communion. Has the ABC really deferred to the primates? He very unsuccessfully tried to manipulate the outcome of the DeS meeting towards further leniency to the TEC. He then undercut the primates in a most affronting manner by sending out the early invitations to those who spurned the primates.

The definition of orthodox may be relative, but if one asks the readers of Standfirm for a definition of orthodox primate, 100% would say Orombi, Akinola, and Venables fall under theirs. Probably, the readers of Susan Russell’s blog would give the same vote.

Secret pacts, machinations and Griswoldian rhetoric do not engender trust. As such, the ABC garners little to none. In as much as the ACI has seemingly fallen under his shadow of late, it gains for the ACI (whose prose can certainly follow the manner of the previous PB) a measure of distrust as well. Witness the strenuous objections to Father Ephraim’s letter and Christopher Seitz’s remarks.

It is certainly not helpful for the orthodox cause (or of the communion) for the ABC to turn down the pressure on the HoB to cooperate prior to the September meeting. Similarly, it is not helpful to put out calls to turn down the pressure on the ABC to heed and not hinder the work of the primates in DeS. The later is unfortunately precisely what the ACI is doing with the letter of Father Ephraim yesterday and Christopher Seitz’s talk of secret pacts of the ABC with unknown orthodox primates today.

[169] Posted by robroy on 06-07-2007 at 05:55 PM • top

Secret pacts? Let’s not get on a 007 track. My remarks in response to Wm Witt’s comments are above for all to see. Nothing there about secret pacts.
Whew.

[170] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 06:06 PM • top

This will be my last post on this thread. It has moved into a question of who is good and who is bad, and why this or that person is a knave or not,  and I am not well-placed to add much to such a discussion at this point.

Emily H. seems to think that I am advocating a kind of power-politics for the Global South, but masking such venal exhortations in theological piety.  She has deeply (and uncharitably) misread my intentions.  It is true that I would encourage Global South Primates and bishops not to view Lambeth as a lion’s den, where they risk being trapped and overpowered by the cunning of the Anglican Communion Office, their media savvy, and Rowan Williams’ wicked subterfuges.  They do indeed have the “numbers” to make such fears dissolve, if that is indeed a part of their reluctance.  (On the other side, I have never argued that it is a “good thing” that “everybody” comes to Lambeth; indeed, I think it is not.  Rather, I have argued only that the fact that this or that person is or is not present does not fatally affect the gathering’s potential work in the Spirit.) But all this is not the point here.  The point is that God upholds His servants as they testify to the truth – even in lions’ dens!— and our belief is that He does this in a special way as the Body of His Son (however deformed) gathers to take council in the form of its bishops (even a stunted or incomplete part of His Body like the Anglican Communion).  Furthermore, as Anglicans we have generally believed that this divine promise unveils its fruit in the course of time, as the saints of the Church in successive gatherings uphold their discernments mutually.  (That is why the General Convention thus far does not seem to be verified as being pneumatically-led – it has sown dissension, bred acrimony and division, and been outright rejected by a host of councils and synods of various kinds throughout the Communion.)  If Lambeth ’08 “upholds” important aspects of Lambeth ’98, this will not make either gathering de facto “authoritative”, as Emily H. seems to think I am arguing from a Macchievellian perspective.  However, it will contribute to the conciliar process that I believe is the faithful way to order our churches.  I am not afraid of Lambeth; I am not repelled by Lambeth.  I am, in fact, hopeful.  And for those who are not, I am sorry, even if my hopes prove vain.

[171] Posted by Ephraim Radner on 06-07-2007 at 06:09 PM • top

The point is that God upholds His servants as they testify to the truth – even in lions’ dens!— and our belief is that He does this in a special way as the Body of His Son (however deformed) gathers to take council in the form of its bishops (even a stunted or incomplete part of His Body like the Anglican Communion).

I have nothing to add or comment. I just thought this line deserved a pull quote, a highlight…a flashing neon arrow sign and criss-crossing searchlights and a brass band. And a foghorn. In any case, it’s going on my refrigerator.

[172] Posted by Dave on 06-07-2007 at 06:19 PM • top

Hi William Witt,

Well . . . if the bishops of Lambeth were to issue such a statement, I suppose it would be nice.  But I still just think that RW would ignore it and in 2017 issue invitations to all the ECUSA bishops with whom HE is in communion.  Which would mean that we would not know until another NINE years after the 2008 Lambeth.  Or better yet, we would have a new even more liberal ABC who would equally ignore such a Lambeth pronouncement.  And we still wouldn’t know until 2017.  Which of course . . . has been the point all along for Rowan Williams.

[173] Posted by Sarah on 06-07-2007 at 06:20 PM • top

It still remains a truth that the Global South primates can revolt *IF* they have the stomach for it, and the votes; and they can force +++Rowan to do things he doesn’t want to do, just like they did in Dar es Salaam. Then the onus is on TEC to comply or walk. Or, the Communion’s failure is open for all to see.

The GS deserves their chance.

In faith, Dave

[174] Posted by dpeirce on 06-07-2007 at 06:24 PM • top

RE: “You’re blowing up, my dear.  If Lambeth is as ++RW says, then there is nothing to “leave unguarded” as the decisions are meaningless and unenforceable anyway.  Take 1:10 from 1998.”

Not certain how I’m blowing up.  If Lambeth is so meaningless—the largest and rarest meeting in all the Anglican Communion—that two of the largest provinces stay away, then I can see that that means that the Communion as it stands is lost.  So from an integrity standpoint, it would be best for a new communion to be established based on those Primates who have marked their giving up on the Anglican Communion’s discipline by their absence from its largest meeting.

RE: “And why do you insist on “these TWO”?  I believe and pray that there are more than TWO who have a problem with the invites as they stand.”

I hope there will be more than two as well.  But so far, only two are the ones who have responded in that way.  We’ll see who else does.

RE: “If that means a symbolic absence for some, based on proper stewardship of time and money or just their need to not associate with the heretics again, I believe they have the wisdom and right to make that call.  Would I prefer that the entire GS and all non-heretical Provinces / Diocese / Parishes make the move away from ++RW today?  Absolutely!  But we do not have any right to dictate to these men of God a “take or leave it” ultimatum at this point.”

They certainly have the right to make their own decisions.  And I have the right to express my hopes about those decisions.  I hope that if they shun the most important meeting in 8 years in the Anglican Communion, that they will also have the integrity to then depart the AC and establish a new communion, having de facto given up on the discipline and right ordering of the original.

[175] Posted by Sarah on 06-07-2007 at 06:32 PM • top

Dr. Seitz,

Yes, of course, I was offering and have been offering my opinion. I believe that the invitations ++Rowan has issued, if they stand, effectively end the Windsor process. It is my opinion. How could it be otherwise?

In any case, on the matter of sources, I was not questioning the integrity of your source. I was simply noting that other, and I daresay equally high, sources do not share the understanding of your source. But that is all I will say about that.

[176] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-07-2007 at 06:41 PM • top

Dear Mr Kennedy/Matt—May god give you all His great peace and strength as you make very important decisions. I have spent too much time here, and need to get on to other matters. All very best wishes, C Seitz

[177] Posted by zebra on 06-07-2007 at 06:51 PM • top

Christopher Seitz writes, “I cannot—I repeat myself here—see how TEC can fumble its way to moratoria on SSB. And lacking this, it seems to this sinner impossible/improbable for the TEC HOB to be invited en masse to Lambeth in violation of Lambeth 1.10.”

If you are right about this (and I hope that you are), why the letter from Ephraim? It has only generated controversy for the ACI and will prove to be moot in October. It has caused divisions in the orthodox support for the ACI (and internally in myself). If the invitations are not retracted then the letter could have been released then. The request of the letter is quite reasonable. (I don’t think it matters much whether Anathius sat with Arius matters much. There are plenty of examples in the history of church where the heretics were simply burned, historical examples probably not advocated by Father Ephraim.) As I have stated, the letter now only serves to mitigate desired pressure for the ABC to stay on the straight path. Believe it or not, I am trying to support the ACI, though admittedly being conflicted and very trying to you.

The ABC certainly did not take the Primates council into account regarding the invitations. Whether or not he takes the primates council in regards to invitation withdrawals remains to be seen. He and we know that it is much harder to withdraw invitations than to simply not issue them.

Begging your forgiveness.

[178] Posted by robroy on 06-07-2007 at 06:59 PM • top

Drs. Radner and Seitz,
I’m sure I speak for many here who thank you for the perseverance you have shown and the willingness to share your thought with us who do not enjoy the benefit of being your parishoners or students.  I’m sure you could very easily have just written essays and articles without the graciousness of engaging in dialogue.  It’s a shame that you are now exasperated and exhausted.  Our prayers are with you.  Please continue to sit at the table with us the little folk and pardon our occasional lapse in table manners.

[179] Posted by richardc on 06-07-2007 at 07:22 PM • top

richardc put it well—it is humbling and not a little frightening to see one’s nom de electron sandwiched between names like Seitz, Radner and Hylden. I’ve already lost count of the number of their quotes I’ve forwarded to my rector. And of course thanks to Matt+, Sarah and the Stand Firm folk for the provocative and let’s not forget high quality posts that brought such luminaries here in the first place. There are about four or five threads running right now that I’m going to have to print off and save for posterity. In twenty years when we all sit back and marvel at how God worked through all this, I have a feeling it will be amazing to look back on some of the debates and ideas in here. Three cheers for all concerned. Good form.

[180] Posted by Dave on 06-08-2007 at 12:44 AM • top

But I still just think that RW would ignore it and in 2017 issue invitations to all the ECUSA bishops with whom HE is in communion.

No, Sarah, I don’t think so.  I think we would know fairly quickly.  If, after Lambeth’s excommunication of TEC, RW were to continue with business as usual, e.g., by scheduling some kind of meeting in which TEC players were invited to participate, then it would be clear that RW had acted in contravention of one of the chief instruments of unity.  It would have the same effect as if RW were to do something like publicly bless a same-sex union.  The ABC would himself be in defiance of Lambeth.  2017 Lambeth would never come, because it would end up being held in some place like Abuja.

What I seem to be reading in both you and Matt is a counsel of despair—that in light of RW’s inviting TEC to come to Lambeth, all is over.  I don’t believe that it is, anymore than his report on TEC’s compliance at GC 2003 meant Dar Es Salaam was over.  I don’t think the Primates will stand for TEC being given a pass at Lambeth.  For one thing, there is still the September 30 deadline.  Something has to be done in resonse to that at least, before Lambeth.

I’ve already made clear that I no longer have confidence in RW as being an honest broker.  Christopher Seitz politely suggests that I am being too pessimistic.

So, I believe Wm Witt hears me rightly when I say I believe without a shadow of a doubt that the primates will play a crucial role in the final inviting process—something that is not required of the ABC, but something he will endorse and accept all the same.

Christopher has more reason to know what he is talking about than I do.  After all, I don’t talk on the telephone to people like Greg Venables or Drexel Gomez while I’m having my morning coffee.  While I don’t have a lot of confidence in RW, I certainly do have confidence in people like Venables and Gomez, and I have for some time.  I don’t believe they are going to let us down.

At any rate, I’ve waited for ten years, and I’m willing to wait another few months.  If Lambeth is a bust, then I’m likely going to end up African or South American.

But I also am not sure what either you or Matt are suggesting as a desirable response to RW’s recent decision.  Are you suggesting that Lambeth doesn’t matter, and the Primates should just stay away?  Are you suggesting that it does matter, but they should stay away anyway?  Are you suggesting that they should go to Lambeth, but it won’t make any difference? Are you suggesting that in light of RW’s invites that the jig is finally up, that it is now clear TEC will never be disciplined, and we should start packing our bags for wherever we’re going to end up?

And if that’s the case, I’m not going to buy your book. raspberry

[181] Posted by William Witt on 06-08-2007 at 05:43 AM • top

Hi William Witt,

I’ve stated several times that we in ECUSA need to be working hard, and that there is certainly time for the fat to be pulled from the fire.

But in regards to Lambeth attendance, I would like one of two options:  1) an announcement by all of the “orthodox” Primates that we are going to defend the Anglican Communion and that we will defend it to the hilt OR 2) an announcement by anyone who won’t show up to the meeting that they are hereby departing the Communion and will be structuring a new one around all comers, and the date of their meeting is [insert date here].

If the Communion is indeed undisciplinable, then I need to look elsewhere.  And if Primates [two of them] have decided that, then I’d like to know that, by seeing their departure from the Communion.

But you know . . . there are still MANY MONTHS for you to enact all the strategems of my book. 

Time’s a wasting!!!  [As I’ve said now for three long years on this blog . . . ] We don’t have all day!!!

[182] Posted by Sarah on 06-08-2007 at 06:35 AM • top

Sarah,

I think we’re on the same page.  We both want the Primates to act, and to act definitively.  And I think (or at least hope strongly) that they will, with or without the ABC.

In which case, I will recommend that people buy your book after all. wink

[183] Posted by William Witt on 06-08-2007 at 08:16 AM • top

Dr. Radner may take umbrage and feel that I have unfairly questioned his true conciliar ecclesiology and cast it in crass political terms.  I admit I was leaning in that direction but it was this response to Matt that tipped me over:

What I don’t get is why an overwhelming majority of traditional bishops from around the world should worry about being at a meeting of prayer and counsel, at which a puny handful of marginal dissidents from some confused and tiny Western churches is also present? Let Lambeth 2008 finish what Lambeth 1998 began. Arguments to the effect of “but TEC hasn’t listened and cannot be trusted” are all true! I have made them ad nauseum along with the rest of everyone on this blog. But so what? Nigeria, Uganda, and so on all have the numbers on their side by a long shot. Let us then see the Spirit uphold their witness. ”

Posted by Ephraim Radner on 06-06-2007 at 05:16 AM”
Why bother to write this letter in the first place encouraging (obviously the GS) to attend Lambeth if whether they attend or not the work of the Holy Spirit will be accomplished?  The conference can become a council and become authoritative.  Is it because, if they don’t attend the, Holy Spirit might speak differently?  Do we determine the action of the Holy Spirit by a simple vote count?  How does, what may be the prophetic witness of the minority, fit into all this?  The minority of the “re-asserters” in TEC?  The minority of TEC in the Communion?  C’mon people agree to sit at the table, together and WORK IT OUT.  This I think is the true Anglican charism.  But I am not a Theologian.

[184] Posted by EmilyH on 06-08-2007 at 03:26 PM • top

I think you’re getting the roles confused here, Emily.  Remember, you’re ECUSA, and we’re Anglican.  You’re the one that determines the action of the Holy Spirit by a vote count.  See Convention, General.

On the question of conciliarity and what Lambeth might decide, Emily, let’s get one thing straight: Lambeth 1.10 wasn’t a “new” working of the Spirit and doesn’t need to be “received.”  It’s teaching has been received, since, oh, 33 A.D.  Thus, the only “power politics” played will, by definition, have to be done by ECUSA, for the purposes of upending 4 millenia of Judeo-Christian anthropology and ethical teaching.  Anything else is not a change and merely keeps the Anglican Communion squarely in the middle of the Christian mainstream.  I submit that, not negotiating heresy, is the true Anglican charism.

[185] Posted by Phil on 06-08-2007 at 03:54 PM • top

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