Total visitors right now: 99

Click here to check your private inbox.

Welcome to Stand Firm!

Episcopal Priest Defies Logic

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 • 9:57 am


From On the Verge:

This was a hard article for me to read. While on one level I want to simply laugh off the ridiculousness of this situation, reality tells me I cannot. How far does a “denomination” go until it can no longer be considered a denomination? At what point do Orthodox Christians call this type of belief heresy? At what point do we no longer acknowledge their faith? At what point do we no longer acknowledge the denomination that not only endorses heresy, but gets “excited” about it?

Those questions are not rhetorical. Am I crazy in thinking that Ms. Redding is a heretic (in the truest sense of the word)? If not, what does that say about the Episcopal church?

I have a feeling that one day my son or daughter is going to ask me,

“Dad, who were the Episcopalians?”

And I’ll have to respond in the most generous way that I can -

“Who knows…...who knows…”


42 Comments • Print-friendlyPrint-friendly w/commentsShare on Facebook
Comments:

There’s an oxymoron in that title somewhere

[1] Posted by Paul PA on 06-20-2007 at 10:06 AM • top

or maybe just a regular moron :D

[2] Posted by Zoomdaddy on 06-20-2007 at 10:42 AM • top

If Ms. Redding denies Christ’s deity then when we test her spirit (I John 4) you get some very unpleasant results. This woman is clearly a heretic and unfit for leadership in the church! The fact that her bishop and the national church do nothing to discipline her shows that the baptismal and ordinal vows of TEC are worthless in their eyes.

The clear message is the TEC will allow any ordained person to believe and behave as they wish, so long as the money and the property remains untouched - you believe as they do.

[3] Posted by texex on 06-20-2007 at 10:43 AM • top

This person is technically an apostate from Christianity (and apparently didn’t really understand Christianity) and, it seems, now a dishonest Muslim.

That her diocese is encouraging this simply beggars the imagination.

Lord, have mercy.

I am happy to see though that on the Internet many of our liberal brethren and sistren see this for exactly what it is.

Though AFAIK the loudest parts of the liberal Episco-blogosphere are amazingly quiet about it. (Probably because they can’t somehow use it to push gay weddings.)

[4] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 11:01 AM • top

Would you believe . . .

-o- Redding preached in St. Mark’s Cathedral, Seattle, 3 times this year (Jan. 21, Feb. 21, and March 18): http://www.saintmarks.org/Sermons Etc/sermons.htm She was the Ash Wednesday preacher. She entitled her Jan. 21 sermon, “Did You Hear the Good News?”

-o- The Human Rights Campaign lists Redding as “a straight supporter of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.” http://www.hrc.org/scripture/bios-writers.asp

-o- The Human Rights Campaign bio describes Redding as a “New Testament scholar” who has taught at seminaries in New York City and Atlanta—-all the more remarkable in view of her abysmal understanding of New Testament teaching about Jesus.

-o- You can examine Redding’s toxoc-chemical profile (with photo):
http://www.pollutioninpeople.org/profiles/holmes-redding

—- When Fr. Mark Hansen of Trinity Church in Bristol, Connecticut, took a supposedly unauthorized sabbatical, his revisionist bishop said he had “abandoned the communion” of ECUSA. But when Redding became a Muslim, she remained a priest in good standing and even continued to preach at the diocesan cathedral.

—- From a June 3 thread on T19

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

If if Redding wants to quack up the old canard about Christianity as white folks’ religion, she might meditate on this passage from the Koran:

“Be not like those who parted in sects and disagreed after there came to them manifest signs; for them is mighty woe, on the day when faces shall be whitened and faces shall be blackened. As for those whose faces are blackened, ‘Did ye misbelieve after your faith, then taste the torment for your misbelief. But as for those whose faces are whitened, they are in God’s mercy, and they shall dwell therein for aye.”—-Koran III: 101-03

[5] Posted by Irenaeus on 06-20-2007 at 11:18 AM • top

It appears to me that (at least from ECUSA’s part) there is more and more talk and action about integrating Islam and the Episcopal Church.  I doubt that serious Muslims see it in quite the same way.

[6] Posted by Bill C on 06-20-2007 at 11:29 AM • top

Would you believe . . .

-o- Redding preached in St. Mark’s Cathedral, Seattle, 3 times this year (Jan. 21, Feb. 21, and March 18): http://www.saintmarks.org/Sermons Etc/sermons.htm She was the Ash Wednesday preacher. She entitled her Jan. 21 sermon, “Did You Hear the Good News?”

IIRC that was before her formal conversion but imagining the answer to that rhetorical question is darkly funny: ‘Did you hear the good news? There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet!’

I doubt that serious Muslims see it in quite the same way.

I doubt it too.

[7] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 11:33 AM • top

The Human Rights Campaign lists Redding as “a straight supporter of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.”

‘Have you met? Dr Redding, Saudi Morality Police. Saudi Morality Police, Dr Redding.’

I get the feeling she knows as much about Islam as she does Christianity.

Blog

[8] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 11:40 AM • top

This seems a logical next step for a church enamored of Bill Swing and the IRD. This is the end result of syncretism.

[9] Posted by via orthodoxy on 06-20-2007 at 11:41 AM • top

Bill Swing

Or ‘the Episcopalians found out about interfaith dialogue and naturally assumed they were in charge’. wink

[10] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 11:46 AM • top

Sometimes it slips my mind why I no longer admit to people that I am/was an Episcopalian. Then someone like Redding comes along.
Oh yeah, now I remember. You know, it never ceases to amaze me that anyone could claim to be a Christian when they don’t believe in any of the things Christians are supposed to believe in. Or that someone like Redding hasn’t been run out of the Episcopal Church on a rail. Sheeesh.

the snarkster

[11] Posted by the snarkster on 06-20-2007 at 11:50 AM • top

So does this Ms. Redding belong to a sect or a mosque somewhere? Or is she hust stating something that she isn’t actively involved in? Mind you I she her as a heretic and an apostate! But if she does belong to a sect or mosque then I just wonder how they are taking the news of her “Christianity?”

[12] Posted by TLDillon on 06-20-2007 at 11:54 AM • top

Ah Good old Bill ‘Pro-am Golf’ Swing.

When I was doing my title in Corte Madera, he had the gall to ‘forget’ his vestments for the installation of te new Rector, who had come to the parish via the ESA (if you can remember that far back).  He had decided on Evensong rather than a Mass, so no women clerics would be behind choir rail.

Having managed to try and suitable dress the ‘Lord Bishop’ he added insult to injury by pulling a spare collapsible crozier from his golf bag!!!!

Alasdair+

[13] Posted by Alasdair+ on 06-20-2007 at 11:55 AM • top

The young fogey brings up an interesting point.

Does anybody know what the Quran teaches regarding homosexuality?

My guess is it does not look to favorably on it.  Does Ms. Redding believe the Bible or the Quran on this subject?

Not that it matters.  But it might be the ONE issue that would get the attention of her Diocese.

DoW

[14] Posted by DietofWorms on 06-20-2007 at 12:09 PM • top

I’ve wondered that myself, snarkster. Obviously a local mosque witnessed her conversion ceremony but I can’t see observant Muslims going in for this game she’s playing.

[15] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 12:10 PM • top

Alasdair+, If you are referring to William Swing “any ‘ol way” from San Francisco…then I can rather see that event you just described as happening in my mind! This man is a joke! I know he told a priest(who had been divorced for the 2nd time) from another diocese in California that was being asked to do an interim postion in a church in his diocese California, (while he was still bishop), that he gave his permission to allow him to come in and take the position, but if he, the priest, re-married again and divorced he would personally see to it that he would be defrocked. Interseting that this priest can be divorced twice but a third time is unforgivable???? Yet the promiscuity of the LGBT activists is “okie-dokie” and the Rave parties he allowed to take place years ago in some of the churches in the S.F. area were perfectly “okie-dokie” too!

[16] Posted by TLDillon on 06-20-2007 at 12:11 PM • top

There’s a “Dog Bites Man” headline.

[17] Posted by Cousin Vinnie on 06-20-2007 at 12:21 PM • top

DOW,  The Quran teaches the same about Homosexuality as the Hebrew Scriptures, the punishment is death in Countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia.  The practice, though, is “stay in the closet” and “don’t get caught”, as long as a man has a wife to be the family cow, he can chase boys at night.  Double standard might be what reminded her of her TEC ties….

[18] Posted by Soy City Priest on 06-20-2007 at 02:41 PM • top

Can anyone in her parish take anything she does seriously? She and VGR need to get together and with a little help from Spong and KJS they can create a religion that will be totally meaningless.

[19] Posted by Hank on 06-20-2007 at 03:57 PM • top

How far does a “denomination” go until it can no longer be considered a denomination?

Anyone with a shred of Christian faith already knows the answer to this.  As far as I can see, it’s just a matter for the IRS at this point to put an end to Schori’s tax dodge.

[20] Posted by Jeffersonian on 06-20-2007 at 04:46 PM • top

<blockquote>The Quran teaches the same about Homosexuality as the Hebrew scriptures, the punishment is death in Countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia.</blockquote>

That’s what I thought. Thanks.

The practice, though, is “stay in the closet” and “don’t get caught”, as long as a man has a wife to be the family cow, he can chase boys at night.

That’s what a priest who lived in Jerusalem for a year told me.

How far does a “denomination” go until it can no longer be considered a denomination?

You mean until it’s no longer a Christian church? Since the Pike trial belief has been optional but on paper of course TEC is still a Christian church.

There’s the way the Mormons went - superficially still resembling the 19th-century Protestantism they came from but with a henotheistic theology out of science fiction (plural gods but you only worship one of them) - and then there’s the Unitarian way where you stop professing belief in the Trinity even on paper. They’re not denominations though many people think they’re Protestant churches - they’re religions unto themselves.

Blog

[21] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 05:16 PM • top

I typed the right code but it was partially eaten as it was being published!

[22] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 05:24 PM • top

Can anyone in her parish take anything she does seriously? She and VGR need to get together and with a little help from Spong and KJS they can create a religion that will be totally meaningless.

  (I don’t think she actually has a parish, she was attached to the cathedral until recently…but…) As I am fond of saying, I am not a theologian, but as an old Anglo-Catholic, I think anyone who knowingly attends a Eucharist which she officiates is risking excommunication, and she herself is in a state of de facto excommunication by virtue of the fact that she is professing another religion.  If any of the theologians out there are reading this, would you either back me up or correct me on this point?  Of course (again, being Catholic, Anglo or otherwise) she has also violated the sacrament of Holy Orders.  Of course, her bishop has violated his own orders by not only condoning this behavior, but enabling and commending it.

[23] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-20-2007 at 05:28 PM • top

Bill Swing and the IRD

The poor folks at IRD have been called lots of names, but this has to be the cruelest. wink  I am sure you meant to say URI.  (Follow the money.)

[24] Posted by wildfire on 06-20-2007 at 06:01 PM • top

(I don’t think she actually has a parish, she was attached to the cathedral until recently…but…)

That’s right. I think she lost that job because of a budget cut.

I am sure you meant to say URI.

That’s what I thought.

[25] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 06:09 PM • top

The dean of the cathedral where she was working let her and another go but did not decrease his salary. She was in charge of “spiritual formation” there which makes me ill if I think about it too long. (A really big millstone is waiting for her.) The dean is a non-celibate homosexual, so presumably she shares his “inclusive” beliefs. I think that if she tried to go to Mecca, she would locked up in shackles and flogged the minute she got off the plane in Saudi Arabia.

But the really sad part of the story is that the bishop is just fine with her two professions, professing to be Christian and to be muslim.

[26] Posted by robroy on 06-20-2007 at 06:34 PM • top

So do we say she “swam the Red Sea”?

[27] Posted by James Manley on 06-20-2007 at 06:37 PM • top

I would describe it more as “she jumped the crescent moon” James.

[28] Posted by via orthodoxy on 06-20-2007 at 06:56 PM • top

James: LOL, brilliant.

[29] Posted by The young fogey on 06-20-2007 at 07:07 PM • top

She’s closer to being Muslim. 

To real Muslims reading this - I apologize for any unintended offense.  I’m sure she’s not really Muslim either - I’m just saying that she’s closer to being Muslim by virtue of being further away from being Christian.

[30] Posted by J Eppinga on 06-20-2007 at 07:24 PM • top

The next thing we’ll hear is that she really isn’t Christian, Muslim, a doctor, or a priest, but she did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

That truly would be good news . . . . if it were only so.

[31] Posted by Laytone on 06-20-2007 at 07:43 PM • top

This is truly mind boggling on two fronts. First of all a “priest” claims to be both Muslim and Christian at the same time, even though their theology is mutually exclusive. BTW, I mean no offense to those who are Muslim but we do have to admit that the theologies of Christianity and Islam are mutually exclusive. Jesus Christ cannot be both Son of God and merely a human prophet at one and the same time.

Secondly, I feel even sadder situation, is her supposed “bishop” who not only condones it but encourages her in her apostacy from the faith. I guess that it really does prove that the ordination vows, even from the 1979 Prayer Book are totally meaningless.

ANd as someone else commented above, as an Episcopal “priest”  can believe anything as long as the property stays put. And I would also add so long as what a priest believes is not orthodox Christianity!

[32] Posted by FrRick on 06-20-2007 at 09:19 PM • top

Diet of Worms: This link discusses Muslim teaching about homosexuality. I can’t vouch for the author but the article does quote and cite sources that may be useful.
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Authors/Arlandson/homosexual.htm

Videos of Islamic stonings, including the stoning of 4 Iranian men, are available on the Internet. (Just Google the words “stoning” and “Islam.”) But don’t watch them if you’re kind-hearted, faint-hearted, or headed for bed.

[33] Posted by Irenaeus on 06-20-2007 at 10:10 PM • top

IRD for URI. DOH!! My humblest apologies.

[34] Posted by via orthodoxy on 06-20-2007 at 10:41 PM • top

Please read the Q&A from the Seattle Times.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/
reader_feedback/reader_feedback.php?id=171

This is one of the Q&A
Q:How do you reconcile holding a position of ministerial leadership in a church that believes in a trinitarian God and the divinity of Christ (assuming the Episcopal / Anglican church hasn’t discarded those beliefs too), while worshipping in a faith that denies both?
John,

A: John
My identity as an ordained leader in the Episcopal Church depends upon the judgement of those whose authority I have promised to obey. I will abide by their judgments. I have reviewed the vows of the baptismal covenant and the vows I took as a priest many times since I entered Islam. I am not violating those vows by my own estimation. If the Church disagrees with me, as I said, I will abide by their judgments.

My understanding of the doctrines of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ have been evident in my sermons and in my teachings. I certainly am not saying that all Christians or all Episcopalians will agree with me. But I am well within the range of the opinions of faithful Christians over the years.

I’m sorry that I cannot really do justice to this question (or any of them) here. ”

Anyone else notice her weaseling?  ” If the Church disagrees with me, as I said, I will abide by their judgments.”  Since the doctrines of the incarnation, the divinity of Christ, the Trinity and uniqueness of Christ in the economy of salvation have all been held by the Church just what church is she talking about?  The Diocese of Olympia or Washington ( I forget her diocese) is not the Church. 

The Church has already declared what is to be believed by the faithful.  I have said it before and here I say it again this woman is a liar.  I pray she comes to her senses.

[35] Posted by Paula Loughlin on 06-21-2007 at 01:58 AM • top

As unchecked as TEC wants to be I fully expect to see her name on a slate of nominees for bishop in some diocese.  Hmmm, maybe she could replace Chane, Bennison or the Bishop of Newark!

They are making a mockery of the once proud Episcopal Church.  They are like children that keep testing their parents to see how far they can push them.  We must continue to pray for the GS Primates and strength of take action after Sept 30.

[36] Posted by jane4re on 06-21-2007 at 02:19 AM • top

I am not violating those vows by my own estimation. (...) But I am well within the range of the opinions of faithful Christians over the years.

There you have it!

[37] Posted by GrandpaDino on 06-21-2007 at 07:10 AM • top

The Play Book – A flexible, working draft:
1.Purport to hold shared values.
2.Destroy faith by first taking down the easiest groups – those who rely upon voting processes to determine theology and governance.  Rely upon the very traditional tenants of the faith currently being dismantled to ensure compliance.
3.Label what was sinful a blessing.
4.Label what was a blessing sinful.
5.Be patient.  The metamorphosis will take a couple generations.  Schools (seminaries) are the keystone to ensure multi-generational success. 
6.When those groups are destroyed, migrate to similar surviving groups by (ELCA, RC’s, etc.). 
7.Once this is underway, begin destroying dissimilar groups by finding those individuals who can be a bridge between groups (Episco-slam priest-o-clerics).
8.Simultaneously begin program to take the focus off traditional cultural and religious underpinnings and supplant them with a new focus (MDG’s).
9.Once reliance upon faith and self-governance is destroyed, the individuals (the groups will no longer be around) will begin to individually rely upon formalized hierarchical human structures including government and the United Nations for survival.
10.Create synergies to simultaneously take down individualism, democracy and capitalism to force greater reliance upon the above structures. (“Global Warming”, national borders, language, culture, reproduction, permissive drug use, etc.)
11.
12.

It all somewhat reminds me of my trip to the former Soviet Union.  Tour guide after tour guide took us into “museums” (former church buildings), and THEIR “churches” (government-built buildings and science museums).

+Katherine Jefferts Schori – “Minister of Science” – you have to admit….it has a nice ring to it…and just imagine how majestic her portrait on a 60 foot tall red banner….

[38] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 06-21-2007 at 10:54 AM • top

I am not violating those vows by my own estimation. (...) But I am well within the range of the opinions of faithful Christians over the years.

So Muslims get to use polling concepts to define their beliefs. The range of opinions of most liberals is that anything you want to believe is ok?

[39] Posted by Hank on 06-21-2007 at 11:20 AM • top

Can anyone in her parish take anything she does seriously? She and VGR need to get together and with a little help from Spong and KJS they can create a religion that will be totally meaningless.

They have done that already.

[40] Posted by terrafirma on 06-21-2007 at 11:58 AM • top

Greg-
Where did my comment go?

[41] Posted by drjoan on 06-21-2007 at 03:54 PM • top

Greg-I found it; I was on the wrong post.
I apologize! red face

[42] Posted by drjoan on 06-21-2007 at 05:35 PM • top

Registered members are welcome to leave comments. Log in here, or register here.


Comment Policy: We pride ourselves on having some of the most open, honest debate anywhere about the crisis in our church. However, we do have a few rules that we enforce strictly. They are: No over-the-top profanity, no racial or ethnic slurs, and no threats real or implied of physical violence. Please see this post for more. Although we rarely do so, we reserve the right to remove or edit comments, as well as suspend users' accounts, solely at the discretion of site administrators. Since we try to err on the side of open debate, you may sometimes see comments that you believe strain the boundaries of our rules. Comments are the opinions of visitors, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Stand Firm, its board of directors, or its site administrators.