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Breaking: The Rev. John Guernsey Elected Bishop in Uganda

Friday, June 22, 2007 • 8:39 am


Dear Rectors, Clergy, and Lay Leaders of Ugandan Churches in America,

Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, our Good Shepherd!

I am writing to share with you a significant decision I and the House of Bishops have made today that I hope will be an encouragement to you. And, I want you, if possible, to hear it first from me.

The Church of Uganda is now providing ecclesiastical oversight to twenty-six congregations in America, and we continue to receive appeals from other congregations. Yet, when we first started responding to such appeals in 2004, I don’t think any of us imagined at the time that the American church would be in the state that it is in today, and that the tear in the Anglican Communion would or could become deeper. We always envisioned the episcopal care and oversight we were providing you and other churches as being a temporary measure. Hence, we sometimes referred to this as our “ecclesiastical refugee ministry.”

Likewise, we have always said that we will be there for you and not abandon you, and we stand by that commitment and our word. At the same time, we have said that we would do everything we can to work towards a Biblically orthodox domestic ecclesial entity in the USA so that at some point in the future, we could “repatriate” you.

The carefully worked out and unanimously agreed Pastoral Scheme by the Primates in our February 2007 Dar es Salaam Communiquk has now been soundly rejected not only by TEC’s House of Bishops, but also by their Executive Council. We take their rejection very seriously. The need for a domestic episcopate for our Ugandan congregations grows daily, yet the anticipated, Biblically orthodox domestic ecclesial entity in the USA is not yet available. It has, therefore, seemed good to the House of Bishops and the Holy Spirit for us to take an interim step that acknowledges the need for a domestic bishop while at the same time affirming your full status as members of the Church of Uganda, and, therefore, of the Anglican Communion. In December 2006, the House of Bishops elected the Rev. John Guernsey to be a Bishop in the Church of Uganda, serving our American congregations on behalf of their Ugandan Bishop. Today at our House of Bishops meeting, we reaffirmed that decision and set the date for Bishopelect Guernsey’s consecration for Sunday, 2nd September 2007. He will be consecrated in Mbarara along with Bishop-elect George Tibesigwa, the new Bishop of Ankole Diocese. You are most welcome to attend the consecration and we would be very happy to receive you.

What does this mean for you? What are the practical implications?

1. You and your congregation are still full members of your current Diocese in the Church of Uganda.

2. We continue to wholeheartedly encourage the development of mutual mission relationships between your congregation and your diocese. The harvest still remains plentiful, but the labourers are few.

3. At the time of the consecration, your Bishop will transfer his episcopal oversight, but not his jurisdiction, to Bishop-elect Guernsey.

4. Therefore, you should relate to Bishop-elect Guernsey as your overseeing Bishop and to your Ugandan Bishop as a Mission Partner. For example, all matters pertaining to ordinations, deployment of clergy, calling of clergy to parishes, clergy discipline, installation of new rectors, confirmation, planting of new churches, referral of churches for Ugandan oversight, etc. should now be referred directly to Bishop-elect Guernsey and no longer to your Ugandan Bishop. On the other hand, matters pertaining to your joint mission efforts should continue to be referred to your Ugandan Bishop.

Admittedly, this is complex, and we hope this arrangement will be temporary until the Biblically orthodox domestic ecclesial entity in the USA is in place. But, I do ask that all of us - Americans and Ugandans - work diligently to make this work. We will all need to walk in the light with one another; to extend grace, love, and mutual respect to one another; and to be transparent in our communication. Bishop-elect Guernsey is now our front-line Bishop and should be your first point of contact about anything ecclesiastical. When in doubt, contact Bishop-elect Guernsey first and then, together, you can decide if and how your Ugandan Bishop may need to be brought into the situation.

Finally, I want to say how pleased and encouraged I am to hear that Bishop Duncan has called for a Council of Bishops meeting for the Common Cause partners in September. This is the kind of movement toward unity among orthodox entities in the USA that is hopeful for the future of a Biblical North American Anglican witness and must be pleasing to our Lord. We have already been assured that Bishop-elect Guernsey will be invited to that meeting, and we have asked him to work closely with all Bishops serving American congregations that are canonically part of Global South Provinces, and with other Bishops with whom the Church of Uganda is in communion.

As I have said in the past, we are so grateful for you and your costly witness to the unchanging Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. “Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers - not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be.” (1 Peter 5.2)

Yours, in Christ,

The Most Rev. Henry Luke Orombi
ARCHBISHOP OF CHURCH OF UGANDA.

UPDATE: This is from TLC:

The Rev. John Guernsey, rector of All Saints Anglican Church in Woodbridge, Va., was selected by the Ugandan House of Bishops to oversee its 26 congregations in 12 states. He will be consecrated Sept. 2 in Mbarara, Uganda.

“The Rev. Guernsey has a long history with the Church of Uganda, including many short visits for teaching and preaching missions,” stated the Most Rev. Henry Orombi, Primate of Uganda, in a press release. “He is highly respected by clergy and bishops in the Church of Uganda, and has also been a pastoral and strategic leader in the Anglican Communion Network as dean of the Mid-Atlantic Convocation.”

Bishop-elect Guernsey said the decision to consecrate an American bishop had been made at the December Ugandan House of Bishops meeting and had been taken in consultation with other Global South provinces.

Uganda is not creating a separate ecclesiastical structure in the United States, he said, and would work closely with other Anglicans to provide a haven for traditionalist groups.

“Uganda is not building anything on its own, but we are working closely with Bishop Duncan and all our Common Cause partners toward a united and faithful Anglicanism in North America,” he told The Living Church.


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Comments:

Praise the Lord!

[1] Posted by naab00 on 06-22-2007 at 08:56 AM • top

I believe this could be called “Holy Boldness!”  Still not sure about the timing of all of this, but I guess the September 30th deadline stopped meaning something a long time ago….

[2] Posted by Liz Forman on 06-22-2007 at 08:58 AM • top

John Guernsey is a man of God if ever there was one.  I am 100% behind this decision and thankful for John’s leadership.  May God bless him in this new ministry role.

[3] Posted by Hindustaaniwalla Hatterr on 06-22-2007 at 09:11 AM • top

Pardon my “unknowing”, but who is John Guernsey? 
Thanx
Grannie gloria

[4] Posted by Grandmother on 06-22-2007 at 09:11 AM • top

Bishop Orumbi’s statement is a tribute to Hypocrisy. He has openly fomented and encouraged the rebellion he now supports as being home grown. He has done so by trashing Anglican polity, Anglican comprehensiveness and centuries old belief in the authority of Scripture.
Having worked with the Church in Uganda for several years in the past, this is a far cry from the church which preceded the fundamentalism and authoritarian disrespect for other parts of the Anglican Communion represented in the ambitious Orumbi.

[5] Posted by TBWSF on 06-22-2007 at 09:14 AM • top

A man of prayer and a quiet member of SF—his name is often at the bottom yet uses his words only when needed.

John+—Congratulation on this honor. May the Lord give you everything you need to discharge your duties in this new task given to you. May you know Him even more in these strange times.

[6] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 06-22-2007 at 09:14 AM • top

Adding this announcement to the pile, I think the evidence strongly suggests this is all coordinated, which ought to give the “alphabet soup” critics pause for a moment.  Let’s see where this goes; it may not be as haphazard a picture as some would like to paint.

At the same time, what goes along with the critical mass of this proto-pastoral structure is that Rowan Williams is recklessly endangering the Communion if he doesn’t recognize these entities as full members.  Forgetting the ECUSA invitations for a moment, denying invites to these bishops is tantamount to standing against the Primates and the DES Communique (since this is shaping up to be the Pastoral Vicarate whose original form was spit on by ECUSA).  I don’t think Williams ought to go there.

[7] Posted by Phil on 06-22-2007 at 09:15 AM • top

One more time (with feeling), Tom, your crowd has no business going on about “centuries old belief in the authority of Scripture.”  Scripture is silent on ECUSA getting an exclusive territory like some sort of ancient Burger King, but quite clear on practices you would like to glorify - a strong whiff of hypocrisy, for sure.

[8] Posted by Phil on 06-22-2007 at 09:18 AM • top

Thank God for those bishops and archbishops who have remained loyal to the “faith once delivered.”  ++Orombi is one of the great leaders of our Church, and a true man of God and one feels that in every word he speaks or writes.

God has blessed all who are in his pastoral care.  And indeed, in many ways, that is all Anglicans worldwide who continue to follow the Lord.  Every word Abp. Orombi speaks brings us hope.

TJ

On the deadline Liz…read the communique.  The Pastoral Council/ Primatial Vicar was not subject to the deadline.  Rowan called for nominations for the council with weeks of DESKJS did not follow through and tossed it to the HoB, who denounced it and tossed it to the Executive Council.  They have said TEC will not comply.  There is nothing in the communique that implied it was optional or debatable or that any delay would be tolerated.

[9] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-22-2007 at 09:18 AM • top

Grannie Gloria:

Rev John Guernsey is the rector of All Saints, Woodbridge, VA. He’s dean of Mid-Atlantic Convocation of the ACN. So a major player, but your “unknowing” is the greatest tribute to his humbleness of not self-promoting.

[10] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 06-22-2007 at 09:18 AM • top

As far as transfer to American Bishops, I believe we have yet to hear from the Southern Cone.
*
He has parishes embedded in the Dioceses of Bolivia, Peru, Chile, and Recife (now under his oversight).
*
I think Abp. Malango of Central Africa may have a parish, but I am not sure.
*
CANADIANS
========
Has anyone heard anything as to whether our Canadian Groups will be part of this Common Cause College of Bishops ?

[11] Posted by Anglican Observer on 06-22-2007 at 09:19 AM • top

Marvelous letter.  He refers to “ the Biblically orthodox domestic ecclesial entity in the USA” and the fact that Bp. Duncan has already assured them that the new bishop elect will be invited to the Common Cause meeting.  There will be great pressure on the HOB meeting in September with this structure effectively already set up.

Neatly laid out is the sequence of the PV plan being unanimously agreed to in Dar Es Salaam and then refused by the House of Bishops and the Executive Council.  He places the blame squarely where it belongs and then goes on to be very clear about their setting up this as a temporary structure as they plan to repatriate us later, refuting those who say it is all about power and money. 

In all this mess, I am very thankful that God has provided us with such shepherds.

[12] Posted by Ann McCarthy on 06-22-2007 at 09:21 AM • top

John Guernsey is also in attendance at the Canadian General Synod occurring right now in Winnipeg. If you go to the Anglican Essentials website http://www.anglicanessentials.org/general_synod_07.htm, you can even see some pictures of the bishop elect. It will be interesting to see what reaction there is on the floor of General Synod.

[13] Posted by Cdn Anglican on 06-22-2007 at 09:22 AM • top

Welcome to Bishop John.  May God bless his ministry among us.

[14] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-22-2007 at 09:23 AM • top

The Southern Cone is represented by Bishop Bill Cox in Oklahoma, acting domestically for Archbishop Gregory Venables.  He ordained our first deacons back in April, supported from a distance by +Greg.

[15] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 06-22-2007 at 09:33 AM • top

TOm,

I’m glad that you are up and well…quite an article on the HobDee this am, and now you grace SF with you prose.

Thank you.

Chip

[16] Posted by Fr. Chip, SF on 06-22-2007 at 09:33 AM • top

The Living Church already has a story up about this development:
http://www.livingchurch.org/publishertlc/viewarticle.asp?ID=3455

The Network also has a release out:
http://www.acn-us.org/archive/2007/06/uganda-elects-bishop-for-congregations-in-us.html

[17] Posted by Peter Frank on 06-22-2007 at 09:33 AM • top

Mr. Woodward:

Please don’t equate the GS primates’ violation of Tradition with the manifest violations of Scripture that caused those parishes to seek elsewhere for guidance and oversight. And please don’t misrepresent Hooker’s order of precedence for interpretation as a three-legged stool: it’s not. It’s Scripture first, Reason second and Tradition third. Our separated brethren in the Orthodox and Roman churches would invert the last two, but in all cases Scripture takes precedence. Therefore, a temporary violation of Tradition in order to protect the witness to the Gospel is warranted as St. Athanasius did centuries ago.

Thanks be to God for raising up bold witnesses to the Gospel.

[18] Posted by Bill in Ottawa on 06-22-2007 at 09:35 AM • top

To paraphrase TBWSF - Those darn uppity orthodox Christians!  They refuse to play by our rules and choose to follow Jesus Christ instead.  How dare they!

[19] Posted by Harry Edmon on 06-22-2007 at 09:38 AM • top

I have known John since 1992, and I know he shares fervently our hopes for a “New Apostolic Paradigm” for Anglican mission and ministry in the USA.  Bishop-elect Guernsey is a man of great prayer and humility, a real “team player”, and one who will be a servant-leader in working with other Anglican Bishops from CANA, Kenya, and the ACN in partnering across jurisdictional lines to build a new Anglican province in North America.
Praise God for this election, and for the humble, prayerful, graceful, godly leadership of our Archbishop and the Ugandan House of Bishops!

[20] Posted by PhilAshey on 06-22-2007 at 09:42 AM • top

Ignore Tom+, celebrate +John & Eclipse, your bishop does ROCK!

[21] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 06-22-2007 at 09:44 AM • top

How in the world could anyone understand this announcement as a violation of Tradition? Please don’t confuse small t tradition with capital T tradition. The consecration of John Guernsey+ does not in any way violate Scripture, Reason or Sacred Tradition.

[22] Posted by Pittsburgh Priest on 06-22-2007 at 09:45 AM • top

I remember ‘way back in (about) 1966 -or- 7, our parish priest saying that the day was coming when the Churches in Africa, to whom we sent missionaries ere long, would be reciprocating by sending missionaries to *us*, probably within our lifetime. He was indeed a visionary! The good father has since gone to his rest in Paradise, there to wait in joyful hope of the Resurrection and his heavenly reward. What, way back then, inspired him to forsee this time? I can only guess, of course. But, whatever his inspiration, it has certainly come to pass. And yet, I find it hard to rejoice in its fulfillment. All this is an attempt to hold together the erstwhile “worldwide” Anglican Communion—- to keep us in communion with Canterbury. Why? Our current ABC became a Druid priest several years ago, but still he remains the ABC! The English bishops in the House of Lords assented to the SORs by absenting themselves on the day of the crucial vote! The CofE has demonstrated her willingness to bend the knee to the spirit of the age by ordaining women to the priesthood and episcopate. Make no mistake about it: I consider the doctrines and praxis of classical Anglicanism to be the very closest possible to the primitive Church. In this our day, unfortunately, undoubtedly under the leadership and inspiration of Satanic forces, the Faith once for all delivered to the saints and enshrined in the Catholic Creeds and Scriptures and practised by faithful Anglicans of both high and low persuasion, is being eroded and abandoned by the very people sworn to defend and propogate that Faith. The enemy’s tactics are as old as creation: divide and conquer. “Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered” goes the ancient proverb. Jesus speaks about the abomination of desolation being set up on the altar. A person who fancies herself a “priest” converts to Islam, and, far from being censured in any way (one time she would have been excommunicated), she is defended by her bishop! I am deeply grateful for my Anglican heritage. It nurtured me in the Faith of Jesus Christ. But, truth to tell, the Church which embraced and taught that holy Faith is now quite dead. All these rescusitation (sp.?) efforts are quite noble, true. But the time has to come when *somebody* has to say “Sorry. She’s dead.” Let’s just have the Requiem and get on with being Christians in another branch of the Catholic Church.

[23] Posted by FatBar on 06-22-2007 at 09:53 AM • top

The key point that Tom and the reappraisers do not want to acknowledge is that Nigeria, Kenya, and now Uganda have been invited in. The parishes inviting them in are not gullible, Neanderthal, hicks as portrayed by our worthy opponents. They are faithful Episcopalians who can no longer live with the new thing that TEC is doing.

The current crisis and schism is in the lap of TEC leadership over the last 30 or so years, culminating with Schori. At least we have clarity, and all of us orthodox Anglicans are acting accordingly.

TEC seems to think that it has dictatorial powers over a voluntary organization. People belong and give money because they want to. The departing parishes are leaving TEC of their own free will, as is their right, and are taking the property that belongs to them with them.

The property will still be used to further the mission of the Anglican Communion as it has in the past, it just will no longer be available to become a mosque under TEC.

[24] Posted by BillS on 06-22-2007 at 09:58 AM • top

The US based Uganda parishes send a tithe to their Ugandan dioceses, which can create some bad incentives for the home bishops.  This action by Orombi appears to be a step in beginning to cut the cord, and thus making his US churches more free to join the emerging US based entity.  Very nice.
This also means two US based bishops in Northern Virginia and the Anglican District of Virginia.  One more to go!

[25] Posted by Aidan on 06-22-2007 at 10:01 AM • top

Congrats to Bp. Elect Guernsey!
I have never met him but managed to fall in to a place where he has been a couple of times. I always hear wonderful things about him and his work and am thankful for this good news.
All blessings in the Lord Jesus Christ to him.

[26] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 06-22-2007 at 10:03 AM • top

Is there any more doubt at all that this is a coordinated effort?

[27] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-22-2007 at 10:05 AM • top

You can say what you want- but this action, and the actions taken by other global south primates, are harmful to the anglican communion. ALL THE PRIMATES agreed to a deadline for TEC to respond. That Deadline is Sept 30. It which has not passed. It is clear, that the statement was a farce, most of these plans have been underway for a long time. (you can’t deny the vast orthodox conspiracy now)

My prayers are with those who leave. May you find the communion you want and may you prosper.

[28] Posted by plainsheretic on 06-22-2007 at 10:05 AM • top

AMEN+ At the risk of breaking a leg and destroying my television I refrained from doinga cartwheel after reading this letter from Bishop Orombi! God Bless Bishop-Elect Guernsey! Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ+

On another note, I had this vision after reading this that Kate & camp are probably rallying around the 815 tent tossing about ideas on how they can foil this by passing another recommendation of ousting the AC from the USA on grounds of no authority on American soil without explicit written consent from she and Beers with handstamped approval from the ever-so-caring-ABofC! Or something to that effect!  wink

[29] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 10:07 AM • top

No, Matt+,

No doubts at all!  It seems to show that there has been a huge amount of unseen work going on for a long period of time.

Praise the Lord!

[30] Posted by Fr. Chip, SF on 06-22-2007 at 10:09 AM • top

TBSWF,  as you sow, so you reap.  Warnings and admonitions and calls to repentance go unheeded in the “new thang”.  Here you have “it seemed good to us and to the HOLY SPIRIT” at work and you complain.
Are you also free of the law of gravity, dude?  I doubt it.  EKUSA/TEC has marginalized the Gospel and itself; judgment falls from heaven.  It’s all in the Bible, check it out sometime.

[31] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 06-22-2007 at 10:10 AM • top

I met Rev. John Guernsey the day before yesterday at the Canadian General Synod.  He was happy with what we were doing and mentioned Matt Kennedy’s exploits in the Synod south of the border wink  Sounds really good.

One thing I would like to say.  God is rescuing his people, praise Him for his grace and mercy.  He is also greiving over an unfaithful Church…..His heart is breaking…..do not forget this.  We need to do as we see the Father doing, and recognise His breaking heart over what is happening.

Back to liveblogging…..

[32] Posted by Peter on 06-22-2007 at 10:14 AM • top

I just had the pleasure of seeing the African Children’s Choir, a group of 20 or so kids from Uganda bringing light to the increasingly dark America. They are currentyl touring the mountain states. See the website for the US tour dates. The light of Christ is pouring out of Uganda. Blessings on ABp Orombi.

[33] Posted by robroy on 06-22-2007 at 10:20 AM • top

Peter ; you speak as if ‘God’ is a ‘real person’, with opinions and ideas, sitting up in the sky looking down on us all.
This is the stuff of nursery school….is it really what conservatives believe?

[34] Posted by Merseymike on 06-22-2007 at 10:23 AM • top

Parson,I guess you can overlook the abuse of orthodox Christians by many Episcopal bishops,the catering,no,pandering of the TEC to special interest groups in support of unBiblical teaching and behavior,the outright apostasy of clergy and bishops including rejecting both credal and Scriptural teaching,suing fellow Christians in contradiction to Scripture.Those were the things leading up to the protection of orthodox bishops from elsewhere.
Just WHO has been harmful to the Anglican Communion I would ask?

[35] Posted by paddy c on 06-22-2007 at 10:24 AM • top

MM - Are trying to that this thread off topic, as you do most others? We already know you are a non-believer! Give it a rest.

[36] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 06-22-2007 at 10:24 AM • top

MM,

That was entirely off topic. Please refrain. This is your warning.

[37] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-22-2007 at 10:27 AM • top

Peter,
As a freind a fellow sister in Christ who thinks your post is not only spot on but well said! I am warnign you to DO NOT PROCEED FORWARD IN RESPONSE TO:

Peter ; you speak as if ‘God’ is a ‘real person’, with opinions and ideas, sitting up in the sky looking down on us all.
This is the stuff of nursery school….is it really what conservatives believe?

This is a baited hook to steal your joy! Trust me on this!
FHS
DOK

[38] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 10:28 AM • top

No, I’m not, Hosea. I’m just ever more aware of how different the views are of American conservatives than the bulk of Anglican Christians in the CofE - simply nowhere near as ‘primitive’ in their approach, to use a term mentioned earlier.

The clear evidence that there is likely to be an alternative to TEC set up without any reference to Canterbury suggests to me that the aim is a Communion led from elsewhere.

[39] Posted by Merseymike on 06-22-2007 at 10:28 AM • top

What is a farce, plainsparson, is a spokesman for the Archbishop of Canterbury who makes it a practice to go off half-cocked spouting the line of his friend Louie Crew, in contravention of the expressed wishes of the Primates.  Or the same Archbishop who also ignores the 9/30 deadline by confirming the good standing of ECUSA’s bishops well in advance of it.  Or, for that matter, the Christian organization that celebrates a so-called priest that professes Islam.

My prayers are with you, also; may you continue to invent the religious system you want and which will bring you much glory from the world.

[40] Posted by Phil on 06-22-2007 at 10:30 AM • top

MM,

since your post was so close to the warning I posted above, I am assuming you did not get it. Is that correct?

[41] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-22-2007 at 10:30 AM • top

There could be no finer candidate for Bishop than John Guernsey.  Congratulations to all the lucky Ugandan congregations in America!

[42] Posted by Kathryn on 06-22-2007 at 10:30 AM • top

Yes, Matt. Sorry.
The point I was making, which is relevant to the thread, is that it appears to me likely that the preparations going on now - of which the OP talks about - it indicative of a plan to shift the entire communion both towards a narrow conservative position, and in doing so, of necessity, away from Canterbury as focus.
There appears to be a clear division opening up which the constant announcements of GS involvement in the US are deepening.

[43] Posted by Merseymike on 06-22-2007 at 10:36 AM • top

Here’s a sermon by Dr. Guernsey:

http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=9923

(From Friday, November 11th, 2005)

[44] Posted by Randy Muller on 06-22-2007 at 10:37 AM • top

Guernsey+ will remain rector at All Saints Dale City according to the news articles.  All Saints negotiated an agreement with the Diocese of Virginia to remain in their property for five years while they build a new facility near-by.  I wonder what the terms of the agreement are and if the Diocese will now try to back out?  A year ago I would have said no way but much has happened in the past year . . . .

[45] Posted by Steven in Falls Church on 06-22-2007 at 10:39 AM • top

The US based Uganda parishes send a tithe to their Ugandan dioceses, which can create some bad incentives for the home bishops. 

Sorry, Aidan, but that is simply not true. From the wealthier churches, such as the one I came from, such a practice would create a severe disparity between Ugandan bishops (and there are many) who do not oversee a U.S. parish, and the very few Ugandan bishops who do.

To alleviate such a disparity, the tithe from the churches who have transferred from TEC to Uganda is sent to the province of Uganda as a whole, not to the diocese.

[46] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 06-22-2007 at 10:53 AM • top

Bp-elect John Guernsey was on the professors at a D. Min class I recently attended at Trinity School for Ministry.  He is spirit-filled, humble, bold, prayerful and has a passion for Jesus!  What a wonderful addition to the episcopate.  I am so pleased!  Lord, send your angels to protect John and his family. Continue to guide him into all grace and love for you.

[47] Posted by Marcia King on 06-22-2007 at 10:53 AM • top

ALL THE primates agreed to a deadline for TEC to respond. That Deadline is Sept 30. It which has not passed.

TEC’s House of Bishops has already answered, hasn’t it? They didn’t wait either.

As for the “conspiracy” - have you never heard of contingency plans and being prepared for any eventuality? Do you think TEC has no contingency plans of its own?

[48] Posted by oscewicee on 06-22-2007 at 10:55 AM • top

Did I miss it?  I got the impression several places in the letter that this was temporary until a US structure was in place.  This goes back to the November 06 mtg where GS primates asked US bishops to submit to their timing.  I think we are seeing the fruits of that labor.  It seems pretty clear that a new structure (province) will be organized soon.  When it is, the “alphabet soup” will all be combined into to this new entity.  Will it be recognized by Cantebury?  Will anyone care?  I look forward to this day when all US orthodox feel united in one structure under a bishop or college of bishops.

[49] Posted by usma87 on 06-22-2007 at 10:55 AM • top

usma87,

All five overseas supervisory schemes have stated the temporary nature of their oversight…until a structure is firmly in place.  With or without Canterbury, we will go forward, as practicing Anglicans.

[50] Posted by Fr. Chip, SF on 06-22-2007 at 10:59 AM • top

cont.

Not to mention the meeting called by +Bob Pittsburg, for this fall, of a ‘College of Bishops’.

[51] Posted by Fr. Chip, SF on 06-22-2007 at 11:01 AM • top

A college or house of bishops is being created from whose midst, the primatial “vicar” will be selected.  As a mission field, it is only natural that the various sending provinces would be involved in creating the formal structures that will govern the mission’s relationship with the rest of the Communion.

[52] Posted by DaveG on 06-22-2007 at 11:02 AM • top

Will it be recognized by Canterbury?  Will anyone care?

But if you wiah to maintain the Anglican Communion, then surely you must care - unless you think that this is no longer central and Anglicanism is something separate from the denomination which acknowledges the centrality of Canterbury

I can’t see much mileage in saying to RW ‘you have to throw out TEC and accept the takeover of the communion by the Global South’ - not that this is actually possible given Canterbury’s status as an established church.

This debate isn’t just about America and what happens there.

[53] Posted by Merseymike on 06-22-2007 at 11:03 AM • top

Interesting to note that he was elected in December 2006.  Looks like Tanzania may have slowed some actions down.  Looks like TEC’s actions brought in +Gomez though.  Some have commented that +Gomez’s approval may have aliented some moderate primates - more likely will influence them to support +Gomez’s position.  I think the key to this and Kenya’s annoucment is that Kenya and Uganda needed a representative at this late Sept meeting - someone needs to be the signatory for them to join the new Province/Coalition/Federation or whatever.

As to Rev. Woodward’s comments - this is definetely a homegrown rebellion. It is too large and gathering to much speed to be merely the result of foreign and IRD meddling.  However - the 13 colonies would not likely have suceeeded absent intervention by France.

[54] Posted by chips on 06-22-2007 at 11:12 AM • top

“Bishop Orumbi’s statement is a tribute to Hypocrisy. He has openly fomented and encouraged the rebellion he now supports as being home grown. He has done so by trashing Anglican polity, Anglican comprehensiveness and centuries old belief in the authority of scripture.”

It seems to me that TEC has the corner on Hypocrisy, rebellion, and trashing belief in the authority of Scripture.  None of this would be happening if TEC had remained true to “the faith once given”.

Sorry.  It seems that the end blockquote command is not working.

[55] Posted by terrafirma on 06-22-2007 at 11:13 AM • top

Several of us have commented on other threads that the current process is in some way coordinated.  A vice appears to be tightening, though we may find it gripping on Jello!  Nevertheless, several matters are clear: 1) there remains time for a repentant TEC to turn back from progressing its New Theology of Inclusion/pluralism [pray with me they do], 2) if it continues in its rebellion against The Lord Jesus and His Father refusing to be led by the Holy Spirit the outcome for that institution (can’t bring myself to call it a church…though I understand many faithful are caught within its structures) is in God’s hands [Pray with me for His very personal and infinite grace and mercy upon TEC], 3) those inside will have somewhere to turn to from October 1st onward [Praise The Lord].  The next Anglican presence in the USA will be thanks to some Spiritually tough Men like Rwanda, Uganda, Kenya, Nigeria, Martin+, John+, Bob+, Bill+ and many many, others in the trenches.  Good people one and all, God bless and God Speed.
L’Chaim!  Ifan….

[56] Posted by Ifan Morgan on 06-22-2007 at 11:15 AM • top

Folks,

I realize that in many ways I’m like an outsider looking in , at least at this point. But, it seems to me that if this fellow is so great, he’s needed as a part of TEC, not as a bishop for the church of Uganda giving oversight to congregations here in the U.S. God have mercy!!

How can these Africans rescue you?  Our refuge and strength as Christians is in the Lord. Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?  Doesn’t it make more sense to lovingly address these problems from within our denominations, rather than running away from the challenges? How does this help the church of Jesus Christ from a universal perspective.

Perhaps I’m beating a dead horse, here. But, I have to say it again, to me this is abandoning our brothers and sisters in Christ, and fomenting schism in the church.

[57] Posted by Grace17033 on 06-22-2007 at 11:22 AM • top

Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?
Good grief.

[58] Posted by oscewicee on 06-22-2007 at 11:28 AM • top

plainsparson said:

ALL THE primates agreed to a deadline for TEC to respond. That Deadline is Sept 30. It which has not passed. It is clear, that the statement was a farce, most of these plans have been underway for a long time. (you can’t deny the vast orthodox conspiracy now)

It was assumed that, sometime prior to the magic date of 9/30, somebody in TECusaCORP (PB, Executive Council, HOB, the janitors at 815, et cetera) would make a good faith effort to respond to the DeS Communique in a meaningful and, hopefully, conciliatory way. So far, NO ONE associated with the TECusaCORP revisionista wing has responded with anything other than a resounding screw you, which is anything but conciliatory. It is evident that neither the HOB or anyone else is likely to change that position between now and 9/30, so why wait? It should be manifest to all by now that +++Cantuar intends to practice his fiddle playing while the AC burns unless someone (the GS) drags him, kicking and screaming, back into the arena to exercise a little authority.

So, plainsparson, it is evident that you need a “tinfoil hat” to protect you from that nasty ol’ VCAC. And it is evident that the rest of need to throw another log on the fire and bring the heat up a notch. Why postpone a train wreck?

the snarkster

[59] Posted by the snarkster on 06-22-2007 at 11:31 AM • top

No worries about responding to baiting, it is a fruitless excercise.

Once again I see the confusion between action and reaction wrt what is happening.

First ballot up on liveblog, check it out

[60] Posted by Peter on 06-22-2007 at 11:31 AM • top

T19 has postedBishop Iker’s reply.

The Province of Uganda has chosen wisely in selecting Fr. John Guernsey as the Bishop for their congregations in North America.  Fr. Guernsey is a deeply prayerful and spiritual man who has provided solid leadership as a regional dean for the Anglican Communion Network.  His commitment to Jesus Christ and his missionary vision for Anglicanism have been a real inspiration during the past several years of unprecedented conflict in our Church.

I congratulate Fr. Guernsey on his election and pledge to him my full support and cooperation as he undertakes this challenging new ministry as a Bishop in the Church of God.

The Rt. Rev. Jack Leo Iker
Bishop of Fort Worth

[61] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 06-22-2007 at 11:33 AM • top

This is adapted from a post I made at TitusOneNine.

Addressing those who say there is “no master plan” and that this violates the DES Communique:  The primates - as a GROUP - have agreed to play out the process through the Instruments of Unity.  That process is to give TEC till Sept. 30 to render a decision on DES, then for Rowan to call together the primates to make decisions - including, supposedly, decisions on withdrawing Lambeth invitations.

The GS primates clearly do not believe (nor does anyone else) that TEC will comply with the DES Communique.  Given Kearon’s comments and Rowan’s actions to date on Lambeth invitations, the GS primates have no trust at all in Rowan Williams.  So they are of mind to take action NOW.  But collectively, as a GROUP, they can’t, without pre-empting the Communion process.  But anyone who thinks the Guernsey and Atwood consecrations are not part of coordinated action has their head in the sand.

My theory is that the above is the reason why the GS primates are not yet openly working together.  They will wait to see what happens post-Sept. 30.  One of three scenarios will transpire:

1. Discipline will be agreed upon and TEC Lambeth invitations will be withdrawn (except for Windsor specific bishops).  The primates will implement a new oversight plan for North America made up of Windsor TEC bishops and the GS overseen bishops included in one College of Anglican Bishops.  The existing GS overseen bishops will become part of this College.
2. Discipline will be agreed upon and TEC Lambeth invitations will be withdrawn (except for Windsor specific bishops).  There will be no official Anglican oversight, but the primates will recognize the GS initiatives as legitimate.  The GS primates will then come together and coordinate their oversight initatives into a proto-province.
3. There will be no discipline or Rowan will try dragging things out.  The GS primates will come together and coordinate their oversight initiatives into a new North American province.  The GS will still give Rowan some more time to discipline TEC before the AC split actually happens, but they would establish the new Province nonetheless.

Remember, individual GS interventions in North America is nothing new since DES.  Collective GS primatial action would be new.

[62] Posted by jamesw on 06-22-2007 at 11:33 AM • top

Peter,
Praise the Lord!  grin

[63] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 11:35 AM • top

Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?

  And just how, Grace, can we tell our children “We go to church every Sunday, but you must ignore the bishop in charge of the church because he is preaching heresy.  But even though he is preaching heresy, we give money to the church every week so that they can pay his salary, and pay for the diocesan newsletter, which spreads his heresy.  And, of course, some of the money goes to pay the rector who the bishop installed after he inhibited our parish priest. And what is left of the money we give goes to pay the lawyers who are suing your Uncle Ed, because he was on the vestry of his church, and voted in a way the bishop didn’t like.”
That, Grace, is how it is a threat to our relationship with the Lord.  We will never abandon our brothers and sisters in Christ.  What is happening now is our brothers and sisters in Christ reaching across thousands of miles because they will not abandon us.  TEC has decided to leave the holy, catholic and apostolic Church, but that Church is refusing to die the death that TEC has decreed for it.

[64] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-22-2007 at 11:36 AM • top

The info is already posted at the acn site, just as it was with Atwood+, almost instantly

http://www.acn-us.org/icon/

The letters in the alpahabet soup are starting to move around to spell something.  He that hath ears, let him hear!

[65] Posted by James Manley on 06-22-2007 at 11:38 AM • top

Ok, DOK, what is my penance for answering a troll?  Lol.
TJ

[66] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-22-2007 at 11:40 AM • top

Ifan - the vice is tightening on “Anglican Fudge”

MM - I agree that this is not a US problem.  I think ++RW has significant issues in the UK.  That’s my point.  I would like us to remain Anglican and in communion with Cantebury.  BUT, if the ABC continues in his denial, delay, fudge…..A new orthodox AC based somewhere else is ok with me.  If Cantebury ceases to protect the faith, then why should we seek to be in communion with it?

[67] Posted by usma87 on 06-22-2007 at 11:41 AM • top

Well, if by ‘orthodox’ you mean ‘without any liberals’, how can it be then led and focused on a church which has a significant liberal element such as the CofE?

[68] Posted by Merseymike on 06-22-2007 at 11:43 AM • top

Grace,
In kindness to you I must ask are you a member of an Anglican Chuch or an Episcopal Church? The reason I ask, is because as wonderful a thought as you made it just isn’t reality of what has gone on in ECUSA and the Anglican Communion since as recent as 2003 and and a far back as te early 80’s or farther back and it is now 2007! So I have to ask if you are a member of one or the other, have you been keeping up with all the news and events and in conversation with other brothers & sisters in your parish? Or maybe you belong to another denomination and just aren’t privvy to what is happening to the Epsicopalians & Anglicans and don’t understand our Canons & Constitutions and Articles of Faith?

[69] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 11:45 AM • top

These men who are now being elected under the ongoing relaignment of Anglicanism in America are the Fathers in God of our generation and are the very men who if elected in TEC in the first place would have spared the whole Communion this current distraction from its global mission—thanks be to God that with men like Martyn, Bill, and now John we will soon be back to work…now what about Bob Duncan as our Primate!

[70] Posted by Don Armstrong on 06-22-2007 at 11:46 AM • top

Yes, this certainly gives the appearance of being a coordinated effort out of Africa, and I say, “Thanks be to God.”

Don

[71] Posted by DonaldH on 06-22-2007 at 11:46 AM • top

Congratulations, John!  This is wonderful!

I had no idea things were working in this direction, and if George knew, he didn’t let on grin , but it seems so logical.  I’m tickled pink.

A question about some of the posts—I am not sure this is the primordial over-site requested in the Communique?  I thought that was for congregations still in TEC?  Or is John going to oversee more than the Anglican parishes under Uganda?

Um, John?  Does this mean we have to start calling you by a title or something?

Blessings,
Pat Kashtock
BTW—as an explanation for my last question, someone mentioned John Guernsey’s humility.  He and the pastor of his daughter church never seemed too fond of being called by a title like “Father,” or anything else for that matter.  Instead they seemed to prefer to be called by their first names just like their parishioners.  So, partly I’m teasing, but I actually don’t know if these sorts of things “have” to change when one becomes a bishop.  John is a wonderful, loving warm hearted person, and this news has made my day!

[72] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 06-22-2007 at 11:46 AM • top

Mr Woodward:

There are things you can do - but one of them is NOT trash my bishop.  You want hypocritical bishops?  Go look in the House of Bishops or have lunch with Shori.  These people are destroying the Faith, are duplicitious, only care about their empty buildings and their money and their Universalistic religion.

In contrast this man has only come to gather the sheep they have allowed the wolves to destroy and devour.

SO, in short, knock it off and TRY looking in your own church for hypocrites instead of picking on people who are TRYING to do God’s Will.

[73] Posted by Eclipse on 06-22-2007 at 11:48 AM • top

Grace, in my opinion, you have it exactly backward.  ECUSA abandoned its Anglican brethren around the world and initiated the schism (if that’s what we have).

Early Church Christians considered it of paramount importance to separate themselves from heretical bishops, and early orthodox bishops had the same urgency to remove the heretical ones from authority.  This is a well-established principle.

Look, it’s apparent to me from the totality of your comments that you’re a mature sister in the Lord, but not everyone is in that situation.  It should be clear that a U.S. bishop teaching heresy is a wolf that could lead these less-grounded ones to their spiritual deaths.

[74] Posted by Phil on 06-22-2007 at 11:49 AM • top

TJ! My brother in Christ! You are forgiven because I know how hard it is to not go there! But, I have been good and I have tried to warn others not to tread, but alas it can be a difficult tempation to resist, Aye! Since I am not Deacon Payne, I cannot in good conscience make you drop and do 20 “Are Father who Art…..” with 10 BCP’s on your back!

Go in Peace and continue to serve the Lord!

[75] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 11:50 AM • top

TBW goes ballistic:

He has openly fomented and encouraged the rebellion he now supports as being home grown.

Just a minute, Tom.  I thought all these poor benighted African primitives were being hoodwinked by big-money neocons from the IRD.  Which is it?

He has done so by trashing Anglican polity, Anglican comprehensiveness and centuries old belief in the authority of Scripture.

Ummm, the authority of Scripture, Tom?  A toleration of different churchmanships allowing the complete trashing of Christian teaching on sexual ethics?  An “Anglican polity” that believes it needs to completely reinvent Christianity every three years based on the doctrines found in the editorial pages of The New York Times?

Surely you can do better than this.

[76] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 06-22-2007 at 11:53 AM • top

Grace,
No offense,but have you ever seen the qualifications for church leaders in 1 Timothy and in Titus,especially Titus 1:9.
‘he must hold to the sure truths of doctrine,so as to be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and refute objections raised by any.’
Moffatt
He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught,so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.’ ESV
It seems to me that when a bishop is more representative of the folks described by verses 10-11 of Titus 1(insubordinate,impose on people with empty arguments,deceiving,undermining and upsetting(Greek-Katastrophe) families(and I believe that includes churches),teaching objectionable doctrine for the base end of making money)he qualifies to be recognised as such and regarded not as bishop but as a wolf with a mitre.
As to schism,TEC already committed it in allowing the wolves to rule and teach,this is just part of the fruit of their actions.

[77] Posted by paddy c on 06-22-2007 at 11:57 AM • top

Eclipse:  One thing to keep in mind about Tom Woodward and the liberals - they were quite confident that things had swung decisively in their favor after the initial shock of DES.  The HOB had strongly rebuffed DES, Rowan Williams had not acted on the Pastoral Council, there was an intense debate between Seitz and Kennedy on the blogs (and yes, the liberals read these blogs!!) which suggested that orthodox unity was falling apart, Rowan Williams had included almost all TEC and ACC bishops in the Lambeth invites, and Kearon was winking and nodding that Robinson would be there also as a “guest.”  I think that Naugton crowed about all of this in his blog.

Over the last few days though, the liberals have seen the uncloaking of an obviously coordinated structure for a North American replacement province by a very powerful group of primates that Rowan Williams can’t afford to ignore.  What’s more, the moderate conservative Drexel Gomez (who is known to have Rowan’s ear) has indicated his support of the GS initiative.  Add to this the serious blunder committed by the Diocese of Olympia in extolling their Muslim priest as a great sign of future Episcopalianism.  I think it suddenly became apparent to the liberals that silence did not necessarily equate with inaction.

I think that poor Tom and his liberal friends have had a bad week.

[78] Posted by jamesw on 06-22-2007 at 11:58 AM • top

Hosea6:6:

Meanwhile, yes, Hosea, you are completely right - MY BISHOP CONTINUES TO ROCK!

Thanks be to God for him and all the other Faithful bishops who help us remember that in this world there ARE Anglican bishops who care about Christ more than political agendas, their own shade of miter, and their money.

Re:  Tithing to the Diocese of Uganda

We do joyfully - it is SO NICE to help fund a Christian Community that is telling others about Christ - instead of watching your tithe fund Those who want “Reproductive Choice” (e.g. killing children).

[79] Posted by Eclipse on 06-22-2007 at 11:59 AM • top

Hmmmm. More bishops which aren’t going to be recognized by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Are the GS afraid that no one will come to their alternate jamboree?

[80] Posted by ruidh on 06-22-2007 at 12:01 PM • top

I agree with Grace!
As an outsider looking in it just does not make sense how the solution to complex questions which all Christendom faces, not just TEC, can be solved by this multiple divisions.
African Christians have their own issues to deal with and in many of these provinces that come “to the rescue” of the poor Episcopalians, attitudes that could be considered as contrary to the gospel exist.
What will you then do when these “Global Southprimates begin to address in their own provinces the inevitable issues and questions brought on by globalization and a modern society…leave?
It is not going to be possible to keep all debate silenced nor all opinions equal in the authority structure of Anglicanism, as it regards the place of women, gay people and their relationships, the proper way to interpret Scripture an the ammount of diversity to be tolerated in a faith community….!

No service is done to the cause of Christ by these splits continuing….look where it has brought us since 1054, certainly no closer to doctrinal correctness, nor agreement, nor the prayer of Jesus being fulfilled… ! Progressives are everywhere in the Church, they may even be your own kids or you in time to come…you can not get rid of us by leaving…people evolve, change their mind, rethink their position , just like conservatives are in the church to stay….its silly to pretend otherwise. That will happen even in Uganda or Kenya.
blessings
seraph

[81] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 12:02 PM • top

ruidh,

Theirs won’t be a ‘jamboree’, theirs will be a workshop for righteousness, a clearinghouse for rescue and relief of the oppressed.
As we quote Paul in the Mass, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of which I am chief.”

[82] Posted by Fr. Chip, SF on 06-22-2007 at 12:06 PM • top

jamesw:

I know, and I wish I could lament and feel sorrow for them, but, alas my empathy is somehow lacking - like of like Luke watching the destruction of the Death Star in move 4 I must admit, while Vader remains on the loose, we have struck a nasty blow to the Empire, you must admit.

LOL! 

You know, part of my reaction is that I FINALLY have a bishop of whom I do not have to be completely embarrassed of the entire time - He actually believes Jesus IS the Christ!  The Bible IS the Word of God!  I realize these are ‘just fringe beliefs’ mind you, in Christianity, but I admit that their presence is refreshing.

[83] Posted by Eclipse on 06-22-2007 at 12:07 PM • top

(and yes, the liberals read these
blogs!!)

And so do Bishops and Archbishops!

[84] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 12:08 PM • top

Come off it, seraph.  The division in Christendom in 1054 resulted in two bodies, out of communion with one another and each claiming to be the one true Church, a situation which still exists today.  Each of these Global South organizations enjoy friendly relations and are decidedly in communion.  And, on a broader level, the Anglican Communion has never claimed to be the one true Church, only a branch of the same.

In other words, your comparison is completely, absolutely and totally inapt.

[85] Posted by Phil on 06-22-2007 at 12:10 PM • top

Ruidh, I think you forget who is in the majority in the AC.

[86] Posted by robroy on 06-22-2007 at 12:12 PM • top

But that doesn’t mean that there won’t still end up as being two Communions. robroy - appears ever more likely.

[87] Posted by Merseymike on 06-22-2007 at 12:14 PM • top

I think it’s hilarious that you guys count ASA when you want to boost your numbers, but much prefer structures like the Primates Meeting which have no lay participation whatsoever.

Suffice it to say that not every person in the pews shares the concerns of the Primates.

[88] Posted by ruidh on 06-22-2007 at 12:15 PM • top

Mike asks a basic question:

Peter ; you speak as if ‘God’ is a ‘real person’, with opinions and ideas, sitting up in the sky looking down on us all.
This is the stuff of nursery school….is it really what conservatives believe?

Yes, like all other Christians:

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

It would make very little sense for an impersonal force without ideas or opinions (both quite definitive, in the literal sense) to either create a specific universe or send Someone down to save it, let alone to use a Spirit to inform prophets of the content of those “ideas and opinions”.

I fear, Mike, that the “stuff of nursery school” isn’t Christianity, but rather the simpleminded egocentric epistemology of our terribly, terribly modern glitterati—and those who would ape them.

[89] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 06-22-2007 at 12:17 PM • top

Seraph,

African Christians have their own issues to deal with and in many of these provinces that come “to the rescue” of the poor Episcopalians, attitudes that could be considered as contrary to the gospel exist.

We are one family in Christ as Christians who follow Jesus Christ as our Resurrected Savior and thus we are to bare each others burdens and be our brothers keeper. I think we can help each other with an and in all issues that are existent now and issues that arise in the future. We & many have tried and asked for ECUSA to repent and come back to the True faith and Gospel once delivered and they (revisionist and liberals) have refused blantantly! The Lord also tells us to not be yoked with unbelievers, hetetics, to shake the dust from our sandals…. so go ahead and stay if you wish. You are certainly entitled to make your own choices, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord in joy and that house includes the GS!

[90] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 12:18 PM • top

On March 3, 2004, Alison Barfoot wrote to the Ekklesia Society Primates and Bishops with a draft Proposal for Overseas AEO.  The draft was prepared “After several conversations with Bill Atwood of Ekklesia, John Guernsey, Martyn Minns, and some clergy seeking ‘offshore’ AEO as an interim stage towards the realignment of Anglicanism in North America and the re-establishment of biblically orthodox faith as normative in North American Anglicanism”  Of the three mentioned, none were elected by the people that they will be asked to serve.  We have Ugandan clergy in our diocese.  Did they or their congregations have any input into this or is the imposition of unelected bishops what African congregations can expect in the future? How is this different from Rome?

[91] Posted by EmilyH on 06-22-2007 at 12:19 PM • top

He actually believes Jesus IS the Christ!  The Bible IS the Word of God!  I realize these are ‘just fringe beliefs’ mind you, in Christianity,

Fringe?????????? I believe these are CORE!

[92] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 12:21 PM • top

I, for one, am thrilled. I met John while we were training for a mission trip several years ago. On thing that stood out to me is that 1. He is a leader, and acts as such, 2. he is humble, 3. has a genuine faith, and 4. cares about his flock.

Bio here: http://www.acn-us.org/icon/bishops/guernsey.html

[93] Posted by Festivus on 06-22-2007 at 12:21 PM • top

Phil:
Why…thank you for your comment!  Is it “inapt” or inept?

From where I am standing it all looks the same…Christians who are not in communion with one another for one reason or another , which of course they all justify!

I find the idea that we can all live in communion even in the midst of our differences, not walk away, not exclude, clarify our understanding in places where we do not agree, a very attractive one indeed. It sure beats all of the dogmatism, exclusion, judgementalism in the name of sound doctrine and for the sake of “the name” that I have been exposed to growing up in the Church.
blessings
seraph

[94] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 12:22 PM • top

Orombi writes, “You and your congregation are still full members of your current Diocese in the Church of Uganda.”

Would someone explain to me, please, what this means?  Are they members in the Diocese of Virginia or Uganda?

[95] Posted by RealityCheck on 06-22-2007 at 12:23 PM • top

Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?
Even if the parents are teaching their children bad grammar, how is that a threat to the children’s educational success?
Even if the coach is teaching the players illegal moves, how is that a threat to the team’s success in the finals?
Even if the Chinese are using non-protein substitutes in the animal feed for the pigs, how is that a threat to the quality of the pork that is sold?
Even if we give amnesty to illegal immigrants, how is that a threat to our efforts to secure the border?
Even if the church provides smae sex erotic partner blessing ceremonies, how is that a threat to biblical authority?

[96] Posted by Deja Vu on 06-22-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

Ruidh avers:

Suffice it to say that not every person in the pews shares the concerns of the primates.

Of course, of course, the whole homosexuality thing is quite overblown and it’s only a tiny proportion of the pew-sitters who care.  In a tiny number of parishes.  So why go to all this legal trouble instead of just negotiating an amicable buyout for this hardly-noticeable couple of buildings?

And why are so many in our House of Bishops trying so desperately to conceal from their congregants what is happening?  Why aren’t they all bragging daily about how progressive and modern the church has become?

[97] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 06-22-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

More encouraging good news today.  Praise be to the living God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit!  He is providing for us—one step at a time. What a privilege it is to see Him at work, rescuing all those who love Him and want to live according to His Word.  We will see unity—true unity in Christ in a realigned orthodox Anglican church. We need to be patient as this all unfolds.  I love the verse Archbishop Orombi chose in welcoming his new American bishop.  “Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; [and the next verse] not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.”  This is exactly what he himself is doing for us.  Let us praise and thank God once again for Archbishop Orombi’s leadership.

[98] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 06-22-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

DOK4hs,

I’m a member of the ELCA. Our churches are in full communion. My feeling is that there is a diversity of belief in all the denominations. I don’t think this is just about TEC. I think when we find brothers and sisters ensnared in heresy, we should lovingly engage, and try to persuade them away from spiritual harm by the grace of God.

Would Jesus turn His back? Phil, I hear what you’re saying. But, I also think that we need to trust God’s spirit to guide, and hold His children in the truth. 

We should certainly have a concern for our children. I would not have allowed my kids when they were young to sit under the teaching of a heretical teacher. But, I also think they are much more impacted by our teaching and example at home, and also at the local parish level, than by the personal beliefs of the bishop. We can set a good example for them by loving people unconditionally and contending for the faith.

Also, guys, I just want to say that it’s important to distinguish between genuine heresy, and false teaching, as opposed to committed Christian believers having a legitimate difference of opinion concerning the right interpretation or application of the Scripture.

Seraph, thanks for your comments, too. Good food for thought.

I can only ask for your prayful consideration of what I’m trying to share. Everyone does have to follow his/her own conscience before the Lord.

[99] Posted by Grace17033 on 06-22-2007 at 12:26 PM • top

so go ahead and stay if you wish. You are certainly entitled to make your own choices, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord in joy and that house includes the GS!,

Dearest, thankyou for your acknowledgement that I am free to make my own choices as are you. FYI .. I am not now nor have I ever been Episcopalian…just curious!

blessings
seraph

[100] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 12:27 PM • top

Craig, you replied to merseymike’s off-topic bait, perhaps not noticing that he had been strictly warned by StandFirm to knock it off. Don’t allow him to take this thread off focus.

Don’t feed the trolls.

[101] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 06-22-2007 at 12:29 PM • top

... none were elected by the people that they will be asked to serve.

I can assure you my parish approved our affiliation with the Church of Uganda - we actually asked Barfoot to assist us. We understood (the vestry) that as this a new thing brought on by the actions of ECUSA/TEC, that not all things would be fully known as we Americans like things - nice, tidy, and by “our” approval. I for one have no issue with the procedures. And, after all, such regularity of canons, order, structures, and affirmations have NOT served ECUSA/TEC well over the past several years.

[102] Posted by Festivus on 06-22-2007 at 12:31 PM • top

EmilyH decries the imposition of unelected Bishops on the laity, and asks how it’s different from Rome.  Well, it’s not too different from Rome, of course.  Nor from Canterbury or Constantinople, for that matter.  Your point is?

[103] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 06-22-2007 at 12:32 PM • top

Phil,
Seraph has contracted Fr. Jake’s illness of SPELL CHECK...

Be mindful of your trolling response!  wink

[104] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 12:32 PM • top

Not to worry DOK4HS; yes, seraph, I meant inapt: “not suitable or appropriate.”

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/inapt.html

[105] Posted by Phil on 06-22-2007 at 12:38 PM • top
[106] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 12:38 PM • top

I think when we find brothers and sisters ensnared in heresy, we should lovingly engage, and try to persuade them away from spiritual harm by the grace of God.


Gotta know when to hold,
Know when to fold,
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run.

[107] Posted by Deja Vu on 06-22-2007 at 12:40 PM • top

Thank you Grace for answering my question. So since we the collective orthodox in ECUSA have done what you have suggested for quite a long time to no avail, I can only assume that if it were you in our shoes you would just simply continue on while the walls come tumbling down and God becomes no longer the center focus and foundation of your church and that possibly, for argument sake, your rector decides one day that for the buddists in the congregation we will put a Budda right next to the crucified Christ to show another way to the “Higher Authority” as not to offend but be inclusive!!!!

At some point Grace you will have to wake up and say “Yes Lord, I should have listened to Your warnings long ago, but alas i was holding on to hope that my tolerance would change them!” I’m glad that the salves of Egypt didn’t say that!

[108] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 12:43 PM • top

Thank you Phil
seraph

[109] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 12:45 PM • top

Would someone explain to me, please, what this means?  Are they members in the Diocese of Virginia or Uganda?

Uganda.

Few of the Ugandan churches are in the state of Virginia (we have I think 4 in North Florida).  Certainly none located in the state of Virginia have been a part of the Diocese of Virginia for some time now.

[110] Posted by James Manley on 06-22-2007 at 12:50 PM • top

It seems pretty clear that a new structure (province) will be organized soon.  When it is, the “alphabet soup” will all be combined into to this new entity.

 

Yeah—maybe we’ll see all these entities add up to spell ‘MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN’.

[111] Posted by Africanised Anglican on 06-22-2007 at 12:55 PM • top

...we the collective orthodox in ECUSA have done what you have suggested for quite a long time to no avail…

I do not think most people in TEC are liberal reasserters any more than people in the RCC believe waht the magisterium teaches. Most Episcopalians I have interacted with are nice Christian folk who do not really understand nor care about all the controversy.

What maybe true is the liberals have been more involved in the politics of the denomination and have the upper hand right now…The orthodox are fleeing….because they have a place to go, and the majority do not care as long as there are none of either too vocal in their parish .

To adress your hypothetical situation…really now!!! I doubt that any priest in ECUSA would dare do a thing like remodel the sanctuary and add even a tasteful Budda statue without the consent , approval and lack of strife from the vestry. 
blessings
seraph

[112] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 12:56 PM • top

Ruidh:  Yeah, liberals love the laity - uh-huh.  Like Jan Nunley saying that 815 needs to sue departing parishes “on behalf of TEC’s laity” when over 90% of the parishioners vote to leave.

Like prior to the 2002 synod decision in the Diocese of New Westminster - the conservatives asked that every lay Anglican in the diocese have a chance to voice their opinion, but the liberals led by Ingham stomped that idea out so fast.  Or the the conservative parishes requested fair representation at the synod (the conservative parishes were larger and the formula cheated them pretty severely on representation) but the liberals refused.

So Ruidh, please don’t blather about how democratic the liberals are.  They aren’t.

[113] Posted by jamesw on 06-22-2007 at 12:56 PM • top

Grace says:

Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?


And

I would not have allowed my kids when they were young to sit under the teaching of a heretical teacher.


Now the parish confirmation classes are supposed to go to the Cathedral for confirmation by the Bishop. But you know the Bishop has previously taken this opportunity to spread his hertical thinking in his sermon at the confirmation ceremonies.
Do you allow your child to be confirmed in such a manner?
Do you percieve a threat to your child’s faith formation?
Do you think you are showing Christian “tolerance” and “grace” by your family’s participation in a ceremony that recognizes the authority of a heretic and provides a platform for the heretical views?

[114] Posted by Deja Vu on 06-22-2007 at 12:57 PM • top

Anyone else notice that seraph claims to be “an outsider looking in,” yet understands how rector-vestry relationships work?

I just find that odd.

[115] Posted by James Manley on 06-22-2007 at 01:01 PM • top

James,
Perhaps the vestry information is in the talking points seraph has been provided with?

[116] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-22-2007 at 01:03 PM • top

And why are so many in our House of Bishops trying so desperately to conceal from their congregants what is happening?  Why aren’t they all bragging daily about how progressive and modern the church has become?

For the same reason Jim Naughton is praying that the Islamopalian priest story just blows over:  It exposes how deep the rot in TEC goes.

[117] Posted by Jeffersonian on 06-22-2007 at 01:06 PM • top

seraph, I don’t know about a statue of Buddha, but would a Shinto temple and ritual umbrellas from India in the remodeled sanctuary be enough for you?

http://www.saintgregorys.org/Liturgy/Photos/10am/Alleluia.html

[118] Posted by Phil on 06-22-2007 at 01:08 PM • top

EmilyH decries the imposition of unelected Bishops on the laity, and asks how it’s different from Rome.  Well, it’s not too different from Rome, of course.  Nor from Canterbury or Constantinople, for that matter.  Your point is?

For one Akinola aint the pope…...nor the Ecumenical patriarch..

For you conservativess, that pattern is not completely scriptural nor uniformly part of the tradition of the church. Bishops were at times elected and consented to….not just appointed.

Living under such a structure leaves much to be desired….in my experience. When everyone has a voice, the opportunity for change is always present. When just a few appoint and decide…not so cool, when the decisions they make are bad.

The wisdom af all that…time will tell.

blessings
seraph

[119] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 01:08 PM • top

Put that in your pipe and smoke it +KJS.  The “tiny minority”...just keeps growing.

[120] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 06-22-2007 at 01:10 PM • top

TJ & James,
Seraph did say she was a member of ECLA and so I think that is where her knowledge is forming from! I think, and correct me if I am wrong, they too have vestries! But, what I don’t get is others from different denominations chiming in on matters that they have no vested interest in nor have been a part of the processs of oppression within our own churches. Don’t get me wrong I like hearing different points of view and love the open diologue but when someone from another demonination comes in a begins a bash fest of a mentality that comes off sounding as though they are better than we, I get a bit on the “How dare you” side!

[121] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 01:12 PM • top

<blockquote>For you conservativess, that pattern is not completely scriptural nor uniformly part of the tradition of the church.</blockquote>

This now leads me to believe that Seraph is a liberal!

[122] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 01:15 PM • top

Grace, Seraph, et al.

I was once where you appear to be.  Many of us were.  IMHO, that’s how the denomination got so far off track.  We failed (with some notable exceptions) to call leadership to account and to fully engage the debates.  That’s as much “our"fault as “theirs”.

However, it has become, as you put it, a dead horse.  The organization has mutated, the abberrations have solidified, there is no longer any interest in real listening or debate, and continually-diminishing opportunities for “conservatives” to even get a voice in the official mechanisms of TEC at the national or diocesan levels.

In short, it’s over, and the neo-religionist element has won.  The real split came some time ago; this is merely an organizational realignment to reflect that reality.

I acknowledge your legitimate concerns, and suggest that you prayerfully take care so that it doesn’t happen to your own denomination.

[123] Posted by Connecticutian on 06-22-2007 at 01:15 PM • top

DOK4HS -

Sorry, being sarcastic - apparently for my former bishop they WERE fringe issues.

RealityCheck -

When you are taken underwing by the Diocese of Uganda - you become part of that diocese and are delivered from the clutches of the Evil Emp… - I mean from your TEC Diocese.  For those of us who found this freedom, it is a great time for celebration - including party hats, noise makers and champagne.  I recommend it for ALL faithful Anglicans trapped in the dark recesses of the Empire - I mean the Episcopal Church.

Seraph - In the Multitude of Spell Check There wanteth not sin, but He who refraineth from doing it unto others is Wise.

Meanwhile… somewhere out there in blog land, MerseyMike is very sad because Matt just put out his sparkler with a watergun…

Fr Matt - HOW COULD YOU???

[124] Posted by Eclipse on 06-22-2007 at 01:25 PM • top

Eclipse,
No problem! Glad he is a former not a current!

Blessings
DOK

[125] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 01:26 PM • top

For you conservativess…

DOK4HS - liberal or a friend of Golum…

I wants my fishesss… Precious… What does it want we wondersss…

Sorry, just leapt to mind…

[126] Posted by Eclipse on 06-22-2007 at 01:30 PM • top

DOK4HS

I am a member of the Charismatic Episcopal Church definitely not a progressive denomination and IMHO with worse problems than ECUSA despite the very conservative stance of its bishops and clergy.

My comments are not from a “we are better than you” mentality, they may be from a “there are problems everywhere”, “frying pan into the fire” perspective.

I am here because I am curious, TEC has structures I find attractive and laity participation in governance which we mainly lack. It is interesting to see your perspectives on this problem, I respect them but do not see it the same way.

Many Episcopalian conservatives/charismatics came into our community and others in the Continuum to escape liberalism and have found…other problems.

No I am not a conservative….been there, done that many years…not helpful imho.

blessings

seraph

[127] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 01:31 PM • top

Hey Greg—Could I say one thing?  I understand the stay on topic rule—and it is a good one to have in place.  Truly hijacked threads are annoying.

But sometimes can’t a topic spark curiosity in a different direction, and a person may ask a question that is an honest question, and not an attempt to hijack a thread?  And what if that question is honest and has eternal implications?

People have spoken of MerseyMike’s tendency to be straightforward in what he says.  What if his question was a real question?  It breaks my heart not to answer him. 

There is an irony to his question showing up on this thread—I can “see” John Guernsey now offering MerseyMike a chair and pulling up one for himself to discuss the answer to this question.  Helping people to enter into a real and tangible relationship with the Risen Lord is a passion of John’s.

To the others—yes, not feeding actual trolls is good advice—but it is hurtful when someone who is a genuine part of the community is labeled as a troll.  Disagreeing with most of us on key issues does not mean they cannot be cherished members of the community.

Respectfully,
Pat

[128] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 06-22-2007 at 01:33 PM • top

Seraph

The definition of election has not changed much over the centuries, but the definition of electors has. For example, the Bishop of Rome has been elected for at least the past 1500 years. It is the Cardinal Bishops of the RCC who are the electors. The Holy Roman Emperor was elected as well, by a group of German princes and bishops. In 1700, the legislative assembly of Virginia Colony was elected; by male landowners who were members of the Anglican Church, no others need apply. Today’s election of the Primate in Canada is done by members of the General Synod, who are either elected or appointed (it varies) by diocesan synods who derive their membership from parishes where the delegates are elected or appointed.

If we believe that where two or three are gather together in Jesus’ name the Holy Spirit will be present to guide them, the composition of the electors should not matter. I we believe that Synods are political conventions, then we are in deep trouble.

[129] Posted by Bill in Ottawa on 06-22-2007 at 01:37 PM • top

Seraph did say she was a member of ECLA and so I think that is where her knowledge is forming from! I think, and correct me if I am wrong, they too have vestries!

Fair enough.

[130] Posted by James Manley on 06-22-2007 at 01:37 PM • top

Seraph - In the Multitude of Spell Check There wanteth not sin, but He who refraineth from doing it unto others is Wise.

I am a tarreble sppayler…acksed four claretee…not for spayling….Sabbee?

Sayraff aka seraph

[131] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 01:38 PM • top

Global South Primates are quoted as saying this in their Kigali Communique of September 2006:

“We are convinced that the time has now come to take initial steps towards the formation of what will be recognized as a separate ecclesiastical structure of the Anglican Communion in the USA. We have asked the Global South Steering Committee to develop such a proposal in consultation with the appropriate instruments of unity of the Communion. We understand the serious implications of this determination. We “believe that we would be failing in our apostolic witness if we do not make this provision for those who hold firmly to a commitment to historic Anglican faith.”

see: Mark Harris site (Preludium), now, my only source.

Could someone find the primary source?

It is an important statement in that it was made well before any of the current process began, certainly four months before the DES communique was released and provides if accurate the starting gun for the current stream of announcements.  I believe it also confirms my own view that The decisions being announced and the actions we are seeing from the GS Primates is based on some strategic thinking on behalf of Anglicans in the USA

It seems to me they went to DES with this plan in their back-pocket and the Primatial Oversight plan was a version of this.  Clearly the outcomes of the HoB in March 07 and the Executive Council recently have confirmed to these men of God that they were right in their understanding of what the Holy Spirit was calling for.  They are moving forward with new Ecclesiastical structures for the USA.  The provision is for those who hold firmly to a commitment to historic Anglican faith”.  THere is in my view going to be no misunderstanding of the position on October 1. though many will want to cause confusion, someone ipersists with that roll through out history.  However, note the words of Exodus three.  BLessings on you all.
L’Chaim!  Ifan…..

[132] Posted by Ifan Morgan on 06-22-2007 at 01:50 PM • top

Seraph,

Have you ever had a chance to hear Malcolm Smith preach. I love his message concerning our unity with Christ, and all that this means for our lives. I heard him last year at one of the local Episcopal churches, and was really blessed.

[133] Posted by Grace17033 on 06-22-2007 at 01:53 PM • top
[134] Posted by Spencer on 06-22-2007 at 02:04 PM • top

Dear Ifan
You might find that article on the Church of Nigeria websites:
new one here:http://www.anglican-nig.org/index.php
or old one [more likely] here:http://www.anglican-nig.org/introduction.htm
or on on this website which seems to have both the statement and commentary on the sidebar: http://www.globalsouthanglican.org/index.php

Interestingly the GS did put further intervention movements on hold following the DAR communique for example this in March ‘07 from the Church in Nigeria

In light of the report from the recent meeting of Primates in Dar es Salaam we agreed to defer the request for additional Episcopal elections for CANA until our meeting in September 2007.

from here:http://www.anglican-nig.org/hobmarch2007.htm

What do you think happened to make the GS change their mind?  The clock is ticking for TEC but many think that it has tocked.

[135] Posted by Pageantmaster ن on 06-22-2007 at 02:08 PM • top

I am not much for traditional music, but anyone care to join in singing the doxology?  Praise God from whom all blessings flow….......

[136] Posted by DaveG on 06-22-2007 at 02:22 PM • top

Dear Pat Kashtock,

I admit I am not Greg and your post was directed to him, I like all posters read all posts and I went away for a small while and prayed about your post. I agree with your statement below:

But sometimes can’t a topic spark curiosity in a different direction, and a person may ask a question that is an honest question, and not an attempt to hijack a thread?  And what if that question is honest and has eternal implications?

It has been Merseymike’s own admonitions that he has no belief in our God and finds that Jesus is good up and to a point, nice stories, etc…. He also states that he is a member of the CofE but does not and hasn’t attended in quite some time, whether he tighes to the CofE to be a member in good standing even though he does not attend church any longer, his own admission, is his business. He has continued without swaying while engaged in many topics of discussion these facts. I do not pretend to think that God cannot change his heart as He did Sauls (Paul). However, there comes a point when one can tell by the question that has been put forth that it will take on a life of its own and wonder off topic and turn from a discussion to a debate and ultimately wind up a viscious argument with no real result except discord and frustration. And just like someone else here at SF uses the Wormwood - Screwtape analogy from C.S. Lewis’ Screwtape Letters in his posts of which I love, I truly believe that that is precisely the strategy in most, not all, but most cases where Merseymike, Taomikel, Fr. Jake, et al seem to want to take us!

I do not tag a name to a person to be nasty! But, when one comes to a Conservtive Orthodox site and intentially jabs the members one can quickly be named for those who are new and do not know to save them getting caught up in a battle that is not the intention of the thread! It’s kind of like warning someone that there is an ambush ahead, so be careful!

I am no expert and I make no claims to even come close, but I love the discussions here on SF and all the diversity, but I do not like the reappraisers coming over to intentially stir the pot, if you will. God asks us to be wise not ignorant! Treading carefully is wise, treading blindly is ignorant.

Thank you for your thought provoking post that caused me to have to take a bit of time to converse with my Lord!
FHS
DOK

And in Greg’s deense, not that he needs it, but he is ost generous with the liberal reappraiser that do blog here where we would not get the sae treatment on their sites!

[137] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 02:35 PM • top

Oh Praise the Lord!! +John just co-officiated at my daughter’s wedding in Pittsburgh, this past weekend. I can tell you that after attending All Saints’ in Woodbridge VA for 12 years now, that +John did not seek this election or campaign for this election, as was the case of the “Ask me about Gene” button campaign at the 2003 Convention for ++ Robinson.  I can tell you many instances when +John has preached the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ from the word, preached the Holy Spirit and the faith as given/delivered, he has always stressed the need to study, know and practice a lifestyle of holiness through in-depth study of the Word. Also I want anyone who thinks otherwise that +John has NEVER preached hatred for homosexuals, but he has preached the need for repentance and forgiveness found in Jesus Christ for all sin.  He is exactly the kind of priest who should be elected Bishop! Congratulations to my Priest and friend +John!

[138] Posted by A Sheep on 06-22-2007 at 03:00 PM • top

Had good experience with guernsey leading a workshop several years ago. Good priest.

[139] Posted by RealityCheck on 06-22-2007 at 03:08 PM • top

Got a little confusing toward the end of this thread, so here’s some clean-up:

GRACE says she’s from the ELCA, not Seraph.

SERAPH says he or she is from the CEC.

Lutherans don’t have vestries, and most do not know the differences in polity between them and Episcopalians, and vice versa.

There is no “Diocese of Uganda” (there is a “Diocese of Northern Uganda”, and a “Diocese of Western Buganda”, and 29 others in the Anglican “Church of Uganda”, however.  Having said that, there USED to be a Diocese of Uganda, when it was part of the original Province of Eastern Equatorial Africa.  But there hasn’t been such since the early 1960’s when Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi were granted their own independent status as an Anglican province, and later Uganda by itself.  When +Orombi refers to “your Ugandan bishop” he is referring to the already-spelled-out-in-the-letter diocese IN the CoU to which US congregations were already affiliated).

John WAS elected - not appointed in that sense - last December by the Ugandan House of Bishops, a practice which has its parallel in TECusa House of Bishops history, as well.

[140] Posted by Rob Eaton+ on 06-22-2007 at 04:03 PM • top

Fr. Eaton,
Thank you for straightening us all out!
Blessings
DOK

[141] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 04:08 PM • top

Pat,

Watching the directoins some threads take is one of the real pleasures I get out of doing this, so yes, a wandering thread is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. What I tire of is MM’s frequent insistence on banging his same old atheistic drum in every thread. By the same token, I tire of some other posters’ frequent insistence on taking every thread they can into women’s ordination, or Roman Catholicism, or continuing churches.

But as I say down below, “Since we try to err on the side of open debate, you may sometimes see comments that you believe strain the boundaries of our rules.”

Trolls should not be fed, but on occasion MM doesn’t qualifyas a troll. He is sometimes pretty good at challenging us in our beliefs and assumptions, and if we’re going to engage him, I’d like to see those who choose to do so step up to the plate and took a good hard swing.

[142] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-22-2007 at 04:26 PM • top

So, do I understand that these congregations have left TEC, lock stock and barrel already? 

Also, not to be picky, but if his election was last December, how exactly is this breaking news??

[143] Posted by RealityCheck on 06-22-2007 at 05:01 PM • top

It not only is not breaking news but must have been conceived much before Dar and the Primate’s meeting. That is interesting.

seraph

[144] Posted by seraph on 06-22-2007 at 05:21 PM • top

+Guernsey’s election as a Ugandan bishop was last December.  His upcoming consecration and assignment to take on pastoral guidance of the Ugandan affiliated parishes came today and ARE news.  The assignment and consecration were not made last year, I believe, because of assurances (from ++Rowan to the GS primates- a guess) that things would be settled at DES.  Things were settled at DES, and then TEC reneged on the deal.  It would appear that Abp. Orombi held off until the Exec Committee meeting in deference to the wishes of ++Rowan (speculation on my part, but seems logical).  The absence of any negative reaction from Cantaur on the recent announcements would seem to indicate that he is not surprised, and perhaps not displeased.

[145] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-22-2007 at 05:47 PM • top

OK, then, might better have been: Breaking: Guernsey consecration date as Ugandan Bishop set for September.

Curious: if these churches already left TEC, then has Guernsey been inhibited/deposed/otherwise disciplined by the Bishop of Virginia, and if not, why not?

[146] Posted by RealityCheck on 06-22-2007 at 06:54 PM • top

Hey Greg—thank you for understanding.  I knew you would.  It is nice to know you enjoy some of the winding paths threads can take—I do, too.  And I also understand about the drum beating thing.  That gets annoying when it captivates a whole discussion, yet again.  This time, though, I thought MerseyMike was not necessarily beating the atheist drum.  I have no clue what he has been exposed to or not in England.  My sense is that it may be quite different there.  “Religion” in my book is such a killer.  Knowing the Risen Lord as a real being that interacts with us and actually loves us, is life.  I don’t think MerseyMike has a clue, that’s all.

Thank you for all you do with this blog.  And thank you for allowing the reappraisers to post.

Blessings,
Pat

[147] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 06-22-2007 at 07:39 PM • top

Reality Check:  No, John+ has not been sued by the diocese of VA.  He worked out a separate deal with the bishop to rent the property back for $1 a year, while All Saints’ Woodbridge builds a new facility.  He is very non-confrontationalist, but does seem to get the job done!  He may be inhibited with the other priests leaving Dio. of VA, but they are not part of any lawsuit.  He purposely has worked to keep relations as cordial as possible with TEC, despite his parish’s wishes to leave TEC.  He is wonderful shepherd/guard dog for his flock, and All Saint’s flourishes through all this turmoil.  He will be a good addition to +Minns and +Atwood.  We got 3 now, let’s get to work!

[148] Posted by Crabby in MD on 06-22-2007 at 07:43 PM • top

The liberal usurpers are upset that monies from the American churches that have taken refuge is going to the desperately poor African provinces. They would rather it go to David Beers law firm and to help pay for the 34 million dollar renovation of 815. Ummm, I don’t think that’s going to happen. No, the TEc remnant are going to be stuck with that bill.

[149] Posted by rob-roy on 06-22-2007 at 07:44 PM • top

it appears to me likely that the preparations going on now - of which the OP talks about - it indicative of a plan to shift the entire communion both towards a narrow conservative position, and in doing so, of necessity, away from Canterbury as focus.
There appears to be a clear division opening up which the constant announcements of GS involvement in the US are deepening.

Mike—

What have I been talking about for months. I would suggest that you now just sit back and watch it happen. I believe that God is about to take out Canterbury. Following that, I believe there will be a planting of orthodox Churches among CofE, and they will grow and those put off by the hereSy of the denial of Christ’s teachings will return.

While I don’t expect you to be there, I would hope that you would.

God bless!!!

[150] Posted by Forgiven on 06-22-2007 at 08:49 PM • top

Been There….
I am in quite agreement with your post and I look forward to it. However I do take exception to one point in MM’s post in bold below:

it appears to me likely that the preparations going on now - of which the OP talks about - it indicative of a plan to shift the entire communion both towards a narrow conservative position, and in doing so, of necessity, away from Canterbury as focus. There appears to be a clear division opening up which the constant announcements of GS involvement in the US are deepening.


I do not see conservatives as “narrow minded” rather I tend to see the liberal side more narrow minded. They have been vexed on seeing things their way only and if they don’t get it then it is off to court we go, or a Bishop comes in and hijacks the computers and disbands the vestry members, etc… I see that the conservatives have been living with the liberal views for 40+ years now and since they have been in the forerunning in the past 4+ they have not tolerated conservatives at all! IMHO

But, I am looking forward in seeing the outcome to Fr. John Guernsey’s term in the Epsicopate! I also do find it interesting that the ABofC has been extremely quiet on this topic. Surely in support of this consecration or no, I would have thought him to at least make some kind of statement no matter the small or large of it. aye?

[151] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 09:03 PM • top

if these churches already left TEC, then has Guernsey been inhibited/deposed/otherwise disciplined by the Bishop of Virginia, and if not, why not?

Who care????????????????

[152] Posted by Forgiven on 06-22-2007 at 09:06 PM • top

I do not see conservatives as “narrow minded”

DOK

Nor do I.

MM has so many issues that I do not attempt to reply to them all.

Further, most of the time, he simply repeats his positions over and over again.

Several have said they think MM is looking for true salvation and continues challenging in an effort to find answers. I think Mike is bright. I think he recognizes he is living in sin. I think he wants a way out but he doesn’t want to give up his sin. He is in a quandry and hangs with us because, I suspect, that he knows down deep that Jesus Christ is, indeed, his salvation. I hope I am right and that he does not choose to blow us off because I have said it.

I hope that Jesus and God will convert him.

[153] Posted by Forgiven on 06-22-2007 at 09:16 PM • top

I would have thought him to at least make some kind of statement no matter the small or large of it. aye?

Nahhhh…He’s on sabbatical. He’s not going to say anthing. He is using this time to “discern” what is right.  While he is, as he has done for a long, long time, discerning, the communion is slipping from under him.

Rowan went on sabbatical with credibility. He may wake up from his sabbatical deposed. We shall see.

He has one last chance to salvage Canterbury. A month ago, I thought he would do it. Today, I’m not sure. If he does not, then I, and many others, are wrong.

We shall see. Nor, if he goes with TEC, are we lost. GS is moving strongly forward to salvage Anglicanism from hereSy, apostacy and Canterbury. It is both sad and exciting.

[154] Posted by Forgiven on 06-22-2007 at 09:28 PM • top

I hope that while he is on his sabbatical the Lord talks loudly in his ear and touches his heart to do something! I agree that Merseymike is smart and he engaged in “debate” if you will, much better than most reappraisers on this site even though he could be redundant on his atheist rant. I still don’t understand how one so smart can actually clalim to be a member of a church that he doesn’t dawn the doors of and hasn’t in many years and I have no idea about his tithe ethics either. I guess it’s alot like saying “I’m a member of the Brotherhood of St. Andrew but I don’t pay my dues nor do I go to meetings, but I’m a member!”  I hope you are right about his wanting a way out because with his smarts he could do great things for the Lord!

[155] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 09:43 PM • top

This has been a good week for the liberals. Thanks to the faithful leadership of our Presiding Bishop (in response to the suggestion further up this string, I have had dinner with her—she is a powerful Christian leader), we are poised for real growth.

It has been a good week, too, because many who have had the name Episcopalian but have really been Bible Church people are now finding their home outside the Episcopal Church—I rejoice when anyone finds his or her spiritual home. What is difficult is when we are one thing in name only.

It has been a good week, as well, as Bishop Iker and others are getting closer and closer to declaring where their hearts really are. They do not seem to be with the Episcopal Church—and that is OK. what is not OK is to wear the gowns, flash the Prayer Books while not wanting to be obedient to our doctrine and discipline.

What is not good about the week is that a lot of people who have thought that Africa would save them for the Anglican Communion are going to discover that they are not Anglicans any more and will not be able to be Anglicans without leaving the country or rejoining the Episcopal Church. Guernsey, Minns, et. al. can call themselves bishops, but it will be within another denomination. That’s OK, God be with them. The only rules are don’t misappropriate “Episcopal Church” or “Anglican Church” and don’t take property that is not yours. My hope is that we will find ways of sharing church property—you glorify God in these wonderful buildings and we will do the same.

[156] Posted by TBWSF on 06-22-2007 at 10:22 PM • top

TBWSF: Being Episcopalian is B-A-D, OK ? Name dropping that you had dinner with a heretic like +KJS is also BAD, OK? And I am a Christian first, Catholic second, Anglican third, and Episcopalian is not even on the radar screen, but indeed that is OK.

[157] Posted by via orthodoxy on 06-22-2007 at 10:29 PM • top

Tom,
I offer you my sincere condolences.  You have bought into 815’s song and dance as scripted.  Please re-read your quote.  You are excited because people WHO BELIEVE THE BIBLE are leaving ECUSA.  Isn’t this an admission that ECUSA has lost its moorings?  You might want to exercise a little caution as you prance around the Maypole.  That pretty ribbon can cut you to shreds.  And you sure seem obsessed worrying about this property issue. 
I’ve really begun to wonder if the left developed their IRD funded chant from personal experience.  Who is it - George Soros?

[158] Posted by JackieB on 06-22-2007 at 10:43 PM • top

TBWSF: There is something decidedly creepy about your post.

MerseyMike, Fr. Jake, and even Tao seem capable of discussing things.  I have never seen that in any of your posts.

[159] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 06-22-2007 at 10:51 PM • top

Hi DOK—You are so right—Greg does not need defending!  He does a great job with this blog, fussings of a couple of reappraisers aside.

As for Merseymike, Taomikel, and Fr. Jake: I don’t think it is as simple as they post here to stir the pot so to speak.  Each one seems to have his own reasons, and those reasons probably differ from time to time.  MerseyMike does sometimes like to lob bombs, but more often I see him engaging in dialog.  And he does seem willing to find what common ground he can.  I have seen him post at T19 on straight up news issues that have nothing to do with church politics, and he seems to be a relationally geared sort of person.  He may have started posting to agitate people, but that does not appear to be the reason he has stayed.  I actually appreciate his input.  Well, except when he is having a “bad blog day” sort of cranky-type day.  But then none of us is a peach on those days.

And Fr. Jake—For the most part I have only seen him post when his is hopping mad.  And he gets hopping mad when he thinks a poor wounded sheep is being hurt.  Ya gotta love the guy for that!  Any

[160] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 06-22-2007 at 10:54 PM • top

TBWSF,

flash the Prayer Books while not wanting to be obedient to our doctrine and discipline.

Let’s see now….one of the doctrines of the Bible is that homsexual sex is a sin, but TEC says, “No it’s not and we intend to bless it!” Another doctrine of the Bible says bringing suit on another is not right but, TEC dis suit after suit after suit, etc…. all while they wear their gowns, re-write the Bible & BCP and wear their Miter! I think you spew hypocracy!

[161] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 10:54 PM • top

TBWSF, I think you made a typo:
“not wanting to be obedient to our doctrine and discipline”?
Didn’t you mean “not wanting to be obedient to our notions of polity and discipline”?

I agree about the Episcopal Church (tm) logo, but gowns and prayer books? Can you really copyright a gown or restrict the use of a prayer book? And for them to call themselves an Anglican Church is for +Rowan to decide, not you.

But you seem to be mellowing out & coming to terms with the situation - it’s nice to see you in an irenic mood.

[162] Posted by SpongJohn SquarePantheist on 06-22-2007 at 10:55 PM • top

Here is some history in answer to questions in several posts above:

1.  All Saints’ Dale City was able to negotiate a separation with the Diocese of Virginia wherein they rent the present building for $1.00 per year for 5 years while they build on their new property.  In this contractual agreement, the Diocese of Virginia retains title to the consecrated property (and mortgage) and All Saints’ gets clear title to their new property.  This agreement preceeded the votes and departure by the 15 or so Parishes in Northern Virginia around last December and was hoped to serve as a starting point for negotiated settlements by the Parishes now aligned with Uganda and CANA.  This fell through almost immediately after the All Saints’ deal was made.

2. All Saints’ has left the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia and is now part of the Diocese of North Kigezi of the Church of the Province of Uganda.  Their donations are distributed by the Province to help all of their Dioceses as the Province determines need.

3. John Gurensey+ is a faithfull, prayerfull, evangelical, biblically orthodox presbyter; soaked in prayer by his parish.  It is a high testament to him that despite the rôle he has played in general conventions, the AAC, the ACN and other mission and orthodox bodies, that many have never heard of him.

[The job description for Bishop is a lot like that for President of the US should be: anyone who actively seeks the job should be immediately disqualified.]

3. Ugandan Churches in the Commonwealth of Virginia include:
  <center>All Saints’ Dale City, Woodbridge, VA
  Christ Our Lord Anglican Church, Lake Ridge, VA
  Church of the Holy Spirit, Ashburn, VA
  Eternity Anglican Church, Richmond, VA
  South Riding Anglican Church, South Riding, VA</center>

[163] Posted by Justin Martyr on 06-22-2007 at 11:01 PM • top

hmmmmm… strange—the post had trouble going through then half of it go cut off.  Here is the rest.  I think. wink

Anyone who champions the downtrodden is something of a hero in my book—even if in Jake’s case, too often a mistaken one.  He is passionate and way too impulsive.  I just wish he would read more carefully and check into things before he corks off.  He sometimes sees injury where none is intended.  But I do appreciate the core beliefs that he is now saying he holds.  He may have written differently in a past time, but people can clarify their thinking over time, and I am happy to have him as a brother in Christ, disagree or not.

Tao is another matter, and I am concerned about him.  Often his posts seem geared towards being either obstreperous or hurtful, but sometimes of late they seemed to contain some honest desire to dialog.  He also was not engaging in the long, long posts that could come across as pontificating a bit.  It appeared that he sometimes enjoyed “sticking it to” people (especially poor Greg), but other times it seemed like he was desperately trying to be heard.  And unfortunately, possibly because of previous posts, I think people often missed that he really was trying to say something.  Yes, his posts often emote a good deal of anger, but wounded people can also be very angry people.  I keep thinking how Jesus came to seek the lost.

All that is to say, these are not one dimensional people.  Labeling someone seems to reduce them to something one dimensional.  And Greg – I hope you aren’t too upset this has veered way off topic

Blessings,
Pat

[164] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 06-22-2007 at 11:03 PM • top

They do not seem to be with the Episcopal Church—and that is OK. what is not OK is to wear the gowns, flash the Prayer Books while not wanting to be obedient to our doctrine and discipline.

Funny, that’s precisely what CS Lewis said about guys like you, before you outright hijacked ECUSA.

[165] Posted by Dazzled on 06-22-2007 at 11:03 PM • top

DOK, we were both struck by the same word ‘doctrine’ in his sentence! LOL Did you give an exasperated snort of disbelief as well?  shock

[166] Posted by SpongJohn SquarePantheist on 06-22-2007 at 11:06 PM • top

SpongJohn SquarePantheist
I actually had to read it twice and then do a double take! I was in Shock! gulp

[167] Posted by TLDillon on 06-22-2007 at 11:10 PM • top

Grace, you wrote:

Doesn’t it make more sense to lovingly address these problems from within our denominations, rather than running away from the challenges?

Addressing the problems within TEC has been tried for a number of years now.  The results are usually that clergy doing so are defrocked (inhibited, deposed), vestries (church boards of elders) are summarily removed by revisionist bishops and replaced with those who toe the revisionist line, search committees for clergy replacements due to retirement or other cause are denied clergy of their choice if those clergy are orthodox and are only offered revisionist choices, seminaries are stacked with revisionist teachers and orthodox teachers are hounded out or denied tenure, bishops (Smith-DioConn) come in with locksmiths, computer hackers and hired goons to change the locks on the building, hack into church financial documents and confidential parishioner counseling records, renege on agreements made to clergy on leave and supply clergy, use church laws for purposes they were never intended to remove orthodox clergy.  Again, Grace, do your homework and read what has been happening in TEC especially since 2003 and speak from knowledge rather than from naive presumptions of goodwill and honest seeking after God’s will instead of their own will on the part of the majority of our bishops and many clergy.  Would that your gentle persuasions had a snowball’s chance in the nether regions of being listened to for a moment by the wolves guarding many a flock in TEC.  But alas, sad experience shows otherwise.

[168] Posted by Milton on 06-23-2007 at 06:40 AM • top

Thomas Woodward, I would appreciate an explanation from you (unlike when you ducked several challenges to give <b>just one</b> example of the many contradictions you say are in scripture) of how you square ++KJS’s public statements of how TEC is small because growth and numbers really aren’t important and how we have the right 3 dozen or so people per average TEC congregation in attendance with your comment: “Thanks to the faithful leadership of our Presiding Bishop (in response to the suggestion further up this string, I have had dinner with her—she is a powerful Christian leader), we are poised for real growth.</b>

It would be nice if you would adhere to the usual commonly accepted meanings of words (not like Humpty Dumpty-“words mean what I say they mean”) and standard plain interpretations of the face value meanings of phrases and complete sentences, not ignoring logical contradictions, excluded middles, the law of non-contradiction, and meeting the Sufi Rumi in a field somewhere.  This may (no, <b>will) require you to use mental muscles you never dreamed of in your no doubt infrequent and selective studies of Scripture (here defined as the Bible).  Thank you in advance for your courtesy in following these conventions so as to make yourself understood to us knuckle-dragging reasserters, to whom your usual comments sound like a series of untelligible grunts.  Our bad, no doubt!

[169] Posted by Milton on 06-23-2007 at 08:48 AM • top

John is one of the Virginia 21.

It makes no sense (as if any of it does) since All Saints worked out a deal with the Diocese of Virginia and followed the Diocese of Virginia’s Protocol for Departing Churches (the deal on the property was done alongside the formation of the protocol).  That John and the other clergy at All Saints were targeted by Bishop Lee was shocking, as were all the inhibitions.  He followed this up by suing everybody he could think of.  Lovely, isn’t it?

The inhibitions seem to have been really targeted at the remaining orthodox clergy in Virginia - it was a publicity stunt to scare them off from following the Virginia 21 (who had trusted Bishop Lee to follow his own protocol) - not sure that its worked though, but there you are.  But it appears that Virginia has been taken over by the carpetbaggers from 815 and indeed they do want to send a message to the rest of the diocese and other dioceses in the Episcopal Church you can check out, but you can never leave.  Is that what TEC now calls mission?

Bishop Lee’s six month deadline is next month.  However, all of the clergy have transferred to either CANA or Uganda - and now John is going to be consecrated bishop.  So Bishop Lee no longer has the power to defrock anyone (which if he continues will not be for the benefit of the Virginia 21, but again to scare the remaining orthodox clergy in the TEC Diocese of Virginia - make no mistake about it). 

The division is now not only within the dioceses, but within the provinces. 

And Rowan is just across the Potomac, reading his books.

bb

[170] Posted by BabyBlue on 06-23-2007 at 09:46 AM • top

Sodbuster wrote:

“As to an alleged violation of tradition, did the katholikae ever consecrate bishops where the local bishop was an Arian heretic? Would not that be a similar situation here (pace to the Arian heretics who are much closer to Christianity than 815).”

Of course they did; see my:

http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-03-036-f

Yesterday, btw, was the commemoration (for us Byzantines at least) of Eusebius of Samosata, a bishops who consecrated more bishops within the dioceses of Arian bishops than even Athanasius the Great did, as a martyr, for on his way to consecrate a bishop in yet another Arian bishop’s city, a Arian laywomen threw a roof tile down from her roof on him, and killed him.

(And the Arians, after all, to “give the devil his due,” never practiced either SS or WO.)

[171] Posted by William Tighe on 06-23-2007 at 10:29 AM • top

Ruidh:

You said that we “...prefer structures like the primates meeting which have no lay participation whatsoever.” Well, yes. This is the Anglican Church, which is an episcopal church where we are to put our trust in bishops to lead us and defend the faith. The Primates are the chief (dare I say cardinal?) bishops of the Anglican Communion and I look to them for guidance in matters of faith.

Given our track record in North America on both sides of the border, I don’t see why the Primates should trust that we will let our yes be yes and our no, no. Several times our Primates have made certain promises and broken them within days of making them, claiming that they had no authority or that they didn’t understand what they were promising or that they can’t commit their local church to a particular action.

When a bill is signed by the President or the Queen, those opposed will often issue a statement of dissent, but the bill becomes the law of the land. If Lambeth is our Parliament then we can dissent from their resolutions, but if the vast majority of bishops agree on a standard of teaching for the Communion, that standard should be publicly upheld by all Anglican bishops regardless of private convictions. If the majority of TEC publicly repudiates the agreed teachings, they are, by definition, false teachers and probably heretics.

As a result, the GS Primates who have accepted North American congregations are looking for local godly men to oversee the congregations in their care. I welcome men like +Atwood and Guernsey+ and praise God for answering prayers.

[172] Posted by Bill in Ottawa on 06-23-2007 at 11:26 AM • top

I love the line “..It has, therefore, seemed good to the House of Bishops and the Holy Spirit for us to take an interim step….”
Shades of Acts 15:28

[173] Posted by Eugene on 06-23-2007 at 12:05 PM • top

(repeating comment from above since T. Wodward’s comment I quoted didn’t appear-so he knows to what to respond)

Thomas Woodward, I would appreciate an explanation from you (unlike when you ducked several challenges to give <b> just one </b> example of the many contradictions you say are in scripture) of how you square ++KJS’s public statements of how TEC is small because growth and numbers really aren’t important and how we have the right 3 dozen or so people per average TEC congregation in attendance with your comment <blockquote> Thanks to the faithful leadership of our Presiding Bishop (in response to the suggestion further up this string, I have had dinner with her—she is a powerful Christian leader), we are poised for real growth. </blockquote>

It would be nice if you would adhere to the usual commonly accepted meanings of words (not like Humpty Dumpty-“words mean what I say they mean”) and standard plain interpretations of the face value meanings of phrases and complete sentences, not ignoring logical contradictions, excluded middles, the law of non-contradiction, and meeting the Sufi Rumi in a field somewhere.  This may (no, will) require you to use mental muscles you never dreamed of in your no doubt infrequent and selective studies of Scripture (here defined as the Bible).  Thank you in advance for your courtesy in following these conventions so as to make yourself understood to us knuckle-dragging reasserters, to whom your usual comments sound like a series of untelligible grunts.  Our bad, no doubt!

[174] Posted by Milton on 06-23-2007 at 02:30 PM • top

Still did not get TW’s comment quote included, here it is:
————————————————————————————————
Thanks to the faithful leadership of our Presiding Bishop (in response to the suggestion further up this string, I have had dinner with her—she is a powerful Christian leader), we are poised for real growth.
—————————————————————————————————

[175] Posted by Milton on 06-23-2007 at 02:34 PM • top

Milton:

I have noticed, as of late, Tom W. is like a hit and run driver - just puts ridiculous statements up and then runs like mad away from the conversation:

Example:

This has been a good week for the liberals. Thanks to the faithful leadership of our Presiding Bishop (in response to the suggestion further up this string, I have had dinner with her—she is a powerful Christian leader), we are poised for real growth.

LOLOLOLOL!!!!

Sorry, but of what kind of humor is this?  Because none of it can be true… so since it is NOT it must be just Tom trying top pull one over on the rest of us:

1.  If it were a great week for liberals, why try hiding stories about their “innovative” priests?  OR get their panties in a wad over a few of the minuscule, non-existent parishes getting their own bishops? 

Don’t see alot of rejoicin’ goin’ on…

2.  KJS a ‘Powerful Christian leader’ - as Christian means “CHRIST” follower and CHRIST said, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father, except by me - I don’t see how she can be anything of the sort.  How about, “Powerful Universalistic Leader” - that works.

3.  “Poised for real growth” = Reminds me strongly of those in the “Grey World” in the Great Divorce - “No, the sun isn’t setting - just on the verge of rising… really…”

So, don’t expect him to be held accountable for anything he says.  He just prefers running in - putting silly stuff up - and then running away before anyone can really appreciate his humor.

Quite the humorist.

[176] Posted by Eclipse on 06-23-2007 at 07:59 PM • top

Tom - be honest - you were quite good at ‘Ding, Dong, Ditch’ as a child - come on, time to fess up!

[177] Posted by Eclipse on 06-23-2007 at 08:00 PM • top

Rev. Woodward,
While I don’t agree with anything else you have to say in your comment above (other than I will, of course, take your word that you dined with KJS, and if you indeed believe that it was a good week for liberals, you are entitled to your opinion), I do agree with this (and I hope others noticed it as well):

My hope is that we will find ways of sharing church property—you glorify God in these wonderful buildings and we will do the same.

  This is the only rational, Christian solution I can see to the issues over real estate.  Come this fall, many congregations will divide.  In many parishes, there are going to be people on both sides of the divide that will have deep emotional ties to the buildings. And it would truly be best if both resultant congregations could worship in the church building they feel is their home.
  I hope that while you were dining with KJS you proposed this very idea to her.  I would be very interested to know her reaction, if any.  Would she be willing to put a leash on her lawyers long enough for a meaningful negotiation to take place?
  Meanwhile, I think you underestimate the influence of the GS bishops in the Communion, and perhaps you also underestimate ++Rowan’s commitment to Windsor, the Primates and the DES Communique.
TJ

[178] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-23-2007 at 08:22 PM • top

”...we are poised for real growth.”   
I now longer react to that statement because I have learned that when revisionists speak of “growth” they usually don’t mean more people in the pews, new converts or baptisms, rather a more ethereal growing in terms of inclusiveness.  Discussions with revisionists over declining TEC numbers usually ends with “numbers don’t matter.” 

“...who have had the name Episcopalian but have really been Bible Church people are now finding their home outside the Episcopal Church…” 

I don’t know exactly what you mean by “Bible Church people”, but if that means people that believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, I will gladly accept the label. 

”...Bishop Iker and others are getting closer and closer to declaring where their hearts really are….what is not OK is to wear the gowns, flash the Prayer Books while not wanting to be obedient to our doctrine and discipline. “ 

As Robert Redford said in The Last Castle “Its not your [Prayer Book]”.

“What is not good about the week is that a lot of people who have thought that Africa would save them for the Anglican Communion are going to discover that they are not Anglicans any more and will not be ...without leaving the country or rejoining the Episcopal Church. Guernsey, Minns, et. al. can call themselves bishops, but it will be within another denomination. That’s OK, God be with them. The only rules are don’t misappropriate “Episcopal Church” or “Anglican Church” and don’t take property that is not yours. ”  

You can have the Episcopal Church monicker. It has regretfully become the Enron of church tradenames, conveying the wrong message to the public.  In regard to sharing property, that would be a good short term measure, but one that I suspect would quickly become unacceptable to TEC since the last thing it wants is an apple to apple comparison of congregational growth. 

As TEC continues its slide toward apostacy,  sharing would eventually become unacceptable to the reasserters as well, for the same reason that supermarkets don’t locate some foodstuffs near certain non-food commodities.  Its bad for business.

[179] Posted by Going Home on 06-23-2007 at 09:51 PM • top

I find it surreal the concern with TEC liberals such as Rev Woodward and Father Jake with the property.  You would think they were 1950’s era main street conservative republican banker/cpa/lawyer Epsicopalians.  If there is anything that TEC has in spades its buildings.  Buildings can be replaced - TEC seems to have more trouble attracting converts or making new Episcopalians the old fashioned way.  The growth that Rev. Woodward must be counting on is upper East Side liberals and their counterparts in the Urban core of Northern and left coast cities.  Those that are not gay (reproduction rates approching zero) - have extremely low repoduction rates which are below replacement (2.2) - it is also the same demographic with the lowest church attendance rate.  How growth among this target group can balance out TEC’s losses by death (lots of TEC seniors) and the 15% that I think will depart for a new province is a mystery ( a number that will grow when same sex marriage start). The fact that the only thing most Americans know or will know about TEC is that they have a gay Bishop, they are likely to have same sex weddings, and they are very litigous - that does not seem to be very effective Branding for middle America.

[180] Posted by chips on 06-24-2007 at 11:17 PM • top

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