Praise the Lord!

I believe this could be called “Holy Boldness!” Still not sure about the timing of all of this, but I guess the September 30th deadline stopped meaning something a long time ago....

John Guernsey is a man of God if ever there was one.  I am 100% behind this decision and thankful for John’s leadership.  May God bless him in this new ministry role.

Pardon my “unknowing”, but who is John Guernsey? 
Thanx
Grannie gloria

Bishop Orumbi’s statement is a tribute to Hypocrisy. He has openly fomented and encouraged the rebellion he now supports as being home grown. He has done so by trashing Anglican polity, Anglican comprehensiveness and centuries old belief in the authority of Scripture.
Having worked with the Church in Uganda for several years in the past, this is a far cry from the church which preceded the fundamentalism and authoritarian disrespect for other parts of the Anglican Communion represented in the ambitious Orumbi.

A man of prayer and a quiet member of SF—his name is often at the bottom yet uses his words only when needed.

John+—Congratulation on this honor. May the Lord give you everything you need to discharge your duties in this new task given to you. May you know Him even more in these strange times.

Adding this announcement to the pile, I think the evidence strongly suggests this is all coordinated, which ought to give the “alphabet soup” critics pause for a moment.  Let’s see where this goes; it may not be as haphazard a picture as some would like to paint.

At the same time, what goes along with the critical mass of this proto-pastoral structure is that Rowan Williams is recklessly endangering the Communion if he doesn’t recognize these entities as full members.  Forgetting the ECUSA invitations for a moment, denying invites to these bishops is tantamount to standing against the Primates and the DES Communique (since this is shaping up to be the Pastoral Vicarate whose original form was spit on by ECUSA).  I don’t think Williams ought to go there.

One more time (with feeling), Tom, your crowd has no business going on about “centuries old belief in the authority of Scripture.” Scripture is silent on ECUSA getting an exclusive territory like some sort of ancient Burger King, but quite clear on practices you would like to glorify - a strong whiff of hypocrisy, for sure.

Thank God for those bishops and archbishops who have remained loyal to the “faith once delivered.” ++Orombi is one of the great leaders of our Church, and a true man of God and one feels that in every word he speaks or writes.

God has blessed all who are in his pastoral care.  And indeed, in many ways, that is all Anglicans worldwide who continue to follow the Lord.  Every word Abp. Orombi speaks brings us hope.

TJ

On the deadline Liz...read the communique.  The Pastoral Council/ Primatial Vicar was not subject to the deadline.  Rowan called for nominations for the council with weeks of DES.  KJS did not follow through and tossed it to the HoB, who denounced it and tossed it to the Executive Council.  They have said TEC will not comply.  There is nothing in the communique that implied it was optional or debatable or that any delay would be tolerated.

Grannie Gloria:

Rev John Guernsey is the rector of All Saints, Woodbridge, VA. He’s dean of Mid-Atlantic Convocation of the ACN. So a major player, but your “unknowing” is the greatest tribute to his humbleness of not self-promoting.

As far as transfer to American Bishops, I believe we have yet to hear from the Southern Cone.
*
He has parishes embedded in the Dioceses of Bolivia, Peru, Chile, and Recife (now under his oversight).
*
I think Abp. Malango of Central Africa may have a parish, but I am not sure.
*
CANADIANS
========
Has anyone heard anything as to whether our Canadian Groups will be part of this Common Cause College of Bishops ?

Marvelous letter.  He refers to ” the Biblically orthodox domestic ecclesial entity in the USA” and the fact that Bp. Duncan has already assured them that the new bishop elect will be invited to the Common Cause meeting.  There will be great pressure on the HOB meeting in September with this structure effectively already set up.

Neatly laid out is the sequence of the PV plan being unanimously agreed to in Dar Es Salaam and then refused by the House of Bishops and the Executive Council.  He places the blame squarely where it belongs and then goes on to be very clear about their setting up this as a temporary structure as they plan to repatriate us later, refuting those who say it is all about power and money. 

In all this mess, I am very thankful that God has provided us with such shepherds.

John Guernsey is also in attendance at the Canadian General Synod occurring right now in Winnipeg. If you go to the Anglican Essentials website http://www.anglicanessentials.org/general_synod_07.htm, you can even see some pictures of the bishop elect. It will be interesting to see what reaction there is on the floor of General Synod.

Welcome to Bishop John.  May God bless his ministry among us.

The Southern Cone is represented by Bishop Bill Cox in Oklahoma, acting domestically for Archbishop Gregory Venables.  He ordained our first deacons back in April, supported from a distance by +Greg.

TOm,

I’m glad that you are up and well...quite an article on the HobDee this am, and now you grace SF with you prose.

Thank you.

Chip

The Living Church already has a story up about this development:
http://www.livingchurch.org/publishertlc/viewarticle.asp?ID=3455

The Network also has a release out:
http://www.acn-us.org/archive/2007/06/uganda-elects-bishop-for-congregations-in-us.html

Mr. Woodward:

Please don’t equate the GS primates’ violation of Tradition with the manifest violations of Scripture that caused those parishes to seek elsewhere for guidance and oversight. And please don’t misrepresent Hooker’s order of precedence for interpretation as a three-legged stool: it’s not. It’s Scripture first, Reason second and Tradition third. Our separated brethren in the Orthodox and Roman churches would invert the last two, but in all cases Scripture takes precedence. Therefore, a temporary violation of Tradition in order to protect the witness to the Gospel is warranted as St. Athanasius did centuries ago.

Thanks be to God for raising up bold witnesses to the Gospel.

To paraphrase TBWSF - Those darn uppity orthodox Christians!  They refuse to play by our rules and choose to follow Jesus Christ instead.  How dare they!

I have known John since 1992, and I know he shares fervently our hopes for a “New Apostolic Paradigm” for Anglican mission and ministry in the USA.  Bishop-elect Guernsey is a man of great prayer and humility, a real “team player”, and one who will be a servant-leader in working with other Anglican Bishops from CANA, Kenya, and the ACN in partnering across jurisdictional lines to build a new Anglican province in North America.
Praise God for this election, and for the humble, prayerful, graceful, godly leadership of our Archbishop and the Ugandan House of Bishops!

Ignore Tom+, celebrate +John & Eclipse, your bishop does ROCK!

How in the world could anyone understand this announcement as a violation of Tradition? Please don’t confuse small t tradition with capital T tradition. The consecration of John Guernsey+ does not in any way violate Scripture, Reason or Sacred Tradition.

I remember ‘way back in (about) 1966 -or- 7, our parish priest saying that the day was coming when the Churches in Africa, to whom we sent missionaries ere long, would be reciprocating by sending missionaries to *us*, probably within our lifetime. He was indeed a visionary! The good father has since gone to his rest in Paradise, there to wait in joyful hope of the Resurrection and his heavenly reward. What, way back then, inspired him to forsee this time? I can only guess, of course. But, whatever his inspiration, it has certainly come to pass. And yet, I find it hard to rejoice in its fulfillment. All this is an attempt to hold together the erstwhile “worldwide” Anglican Communion --- to keep us in communion with Canterbury. Why? Our current ABC became a Druid priest several years ago, but still he remains the ABC! The English bishops in the House of Lords assented to the SORs by absenting themselves on the day of the crucial vote! The CofE has demonstrated her willingness to bend the knee to the spirit of the age by ordaining women to the priesthood and episcopate. Make no mistake about it: I consider the doctrines and praxis of classical Anglicanism to be the very closest possible to the primitive Church. In this our day, unfortunately, undoubtedly under the leadership and inspiration of Satanic forces, the Faith once for all delivered to the saints and enshrined in the Catholic Creeds and Scriptures and practised by faithful Anglicans of both high and low persuasion, is being eroded and abandoned by the very people sworn to defend and propogate that Faith. The enemy’s tactics are as old as creation: divide and conquer. “Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered” goes the ancient proverb. Jesus speaks about the abomination of desolation being set up on the altar. A person who fancies herself a “priest” converts to Islam, and, far from being censured in any way (one time she would have been excommunicated), she is defended by her bishop! I am deeply grateful for my Anglican heritage. It nurtured me in the Faith of Jesus Christ. But, truth to tell, the Church which embraced and taught that holy Faith is now quite dead. All these rescusitation (sp.?) efforts are quite noble, true. But the time has to come when *somebody* has to say “Sorry. She’s dead.” Let’s just have the Requiem and get on with being Christians in another branch of the Catholic Church.

The key point that Tom and the reappraisers do not want to acknowledge is that Nigeria, Kenya, and now Uganda have been invited in. The parishes inviting them in are not gullible, Neanderthal, hicks as portrayed by our worthy opponents. They are faithful Episcopalians who can no longer live with the new thing that TEC is doing.

The current crisis and schism is in the lap of TEC leadership over the last 30 or so years, culminating with Schori. At least we have clarity, and all of us orthodox Anglicans are acting accordingly.

TEC seems to think that it has dictatorial powers over a voluntary organization. People belong and give money because they want to. The departing parishes are leaving TEC of their own free will, as is their right, and are taking the property that belongs to them with them.

The property will still be used to further the mission of the Anglican Communion as it has in the past, it just will no longer be available to become a mosque under TEC.

The US based Uganda parishes send a tithe to their Ugandan dioceses, which can create some bad incentives for the home bishops.  This action by Orombi appears to be a step in beginning to cut the cord, and thus making his US churches more free to join the emerging US based entity.  Very nice.
This also means two US based bishops in Northern Virginia and the Anglican District of Virginia.  One more to go!

Congrats to Bp. Elect Guernsey!
I have never met him but managed to fall in to a place where he has been a couple of times. I always hear wonderful things about him and his work and am thankful for this good news.
All blessings in the Lord Jesus Christ to him.

Is there any more doubt at all that this is a coordinated effort?

You can say what you want- but this action, and the actions taken by other global south primates, are harmful to the anglican communion. ALL THE PRIMATES agreed to a deadline for TEC to respond. That Deadline is Sept 30. It which has not passed. It is clear, that the statement was a farce, most of these plans have been underway for a long time. (you can’t deny the vast orthodox conspiracy now)

My prayers are with those who leave. May you find the communion you want and may you prosper.

AMEN+ At the risk of breaking a leg and destroying my television I refrained from doinga cartwheel after reading this letter from Bishop Orombi! God Bless Bishop-Elect Guernsey! Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ+

On another note, I had this vision after reading this that Kate & camp are probably rallying around the 815 tent tossing about ideas on how they can foil this by passing another recommendation of ousting the AC from the USA on grounds of no authority on American soil without explicit written consent from she and Beers with handstamped approval from the ever-so-caring-ABofC! Or something to that effect! 

No, Matt+,

No doubts at all!  It seems to show that there has been a huge amount of unseen work going on for a long period of time.

Praise the Lord!

TBSWF, as you sow, so you reap.  Warnings and admonitions and calls to repentance go unheeded in the “new thang”.  Here you have “it seemed good to us and to the HOLY SPIRIT” at work and you complain.
Are you also free of the law of gravity, dude?  I doubt it.  EKUSA/TEC has marginalized the Gospel and itself; judgment falls from heaven.  It’s all in the Bible, check it out sometime.

I met Rev. John Guernsey the day before yesterday at the Canadian General Synod.  He was happy with what we were doing and mentioned Matt Kennedy’s exploits in the Synod south of the border Sounds really good.

One thing I would like to say.  God is rescuing his people, praise Him for his grace and mercy.  He is also greiving over an unfaithful Church.....His heart is breaking.....do not forget this.  We need to do as we see the Father doing, and recognise His breaking heart over what is happening.

Back to liveblogging.....

I just had the pleasure of seeing the African Children’s Choir, a group of 20 or so kids from Uganda bringing light to the increasingly dark America. They are currentyl touring the mountain states. See the website for the US tour dates. The light of Christ is pouring out of Uganda. Blessings on ABp Orombi.

Peter ; you speak as if ‘God’ is a ‘real person’, with opinions and ideas, sitting up in the sky looking down on us all.
This is the stuff of nursery school....is it really what conservatives believe?

Parson,I guess you can overlook the abuse of orthodox Christians by many Episcopal bishops,the catering,no,pandering of the TEC to special interest groups in support of unBiblical teaching and behavior,the outright apostasy of clergy and bishops including rejecting both credal and Scriptural teaching,suing fellow Christians in contradiction to Scripture.Those were the things leading up to the protection of orthodox bishops from elsewhere.
Just WHO has been harmful to the Anglican Communion I would ask?

MM - Are trying to that this thread off topic, as you do most others? We already know you are a non-believer! Give it a rest.

MM,

That was entirely off topic. Please refrain. This is your warning.

Peter,
As a freind a fellow sister in Christ who thinks your post is not only spot on but well said! I am warnign you to DO NOT PROCEED FORWARD IN RESPONSE TO:

Peter ; you speak as if ‘God’ is a ‘real person’, with opinions and ideas, sitting up in the sky looking down on us all.
This is the stuff of nursery school....is it really what conservatives believe?

This is a baited hook to steal your joy! Trust me on this!
FHS
DOK

No, I’m not, Hosea. I’m just ever more aware of how different the views are of American conservatives than the bulk of Anglican Christians in the CofE - simply nowhere near as ‘primitive’ in their approach, to use a term mentioned earlier.

The clear evidence that there is likely to be an alternative to TEC set up without any reference to Canterbury suggests to me that the aim is a Communion led from elsewhere.

What is a farce, plainsparson, is a spokesman for the Archbishop of Canterbury who makes it a practice to go off half-cocked spouting the line of his friend Louie Crew, in contravention of the expressed wishes of the Primates.  Or the same Archbishop who also ignores the 9/30 deadline by confirming the good standing of ECUSA’s bishops well in advance of it.  Or, for that matter, the Christian organization that celebrates a so-called priest that professes Islam.

My prayers are with you, also; may you continue to invent the religious system you want and which will bring you much glory from the world.

MM,

since your post was so close to the warning I posted above, I am assuming you did not get it. Is that correct?

There could be no finer candidate for Bishop than John Guernsey.  Congratulations to all the lucky Ugandan congregations in America!

Yes, Matt. Sorry.
The point I was making, which is relevant to the thread, is that it appears to me likely that the preparations going on now - of which the OP talks about - it indicative of a plan to shift the entire communion both towards a narrow conservative position, and in doing so, of necessity, away from Canterbury as focus.
There appears to be a clear division opening up which the constant announcements of GS involvement in the US are deepening.

Here’s a sermon by Dr. Guernsey:

http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=9923

(From Friday, November 11th, 2005)

Guernsey+ will remain rector at All Saints Dale City according to the news articles.  All Saints negotiated an agreement with the Diocese of Virginia to remain in their property for five years while they build a new facility near-by.  I wonder what the terms of the agreement are and if the Diocese will now try to back out?  A year ago I would have said no way but much has happened in the past year . . . .

The US based Uganda parishes send a tithe to their Ugandan dioceses, which can create some bad incentives for the home bishops. 

Sorry, Aidan, but that is simply not true. From the wealthier churches, such as the one I came from, such a practice would create a severe disparity between Ugandan bishops (and there are many) who do not oversee a U.S. parish, and the very few Ugandan bishops who do.

To alleviate such a disparity, the tithe from the churches who have transferred from TEC to Uganda is sent to the province of Uganda as a whole, not to the diocese.

Bp-elect John Guernsey was on the professors at a D. Min class I recently attended at Trinity School for Ministry.  He is spirit-filled, humble, bold, prayerful and has a passion for Jesus!  What a wonderful addition to the episcopate.  I am so pleased!  Lord, send your angels to protect John and his family. Continue to guide him into all grace and love for you.

ALL THE primates agreed to a deadline for TEC to respond. That Deadline is Sept 30. It which has not passed.

TEC’s House of Bishops has already answered, hasn’t it? They didn’t wait either.

As for the “conspiracy” - have you never heard of contingency plans and being prepared for any eventuality? Do you think TEC has no contingency plans of its own?

Did I miss it?  I got the impression several places in the letter that this was temporary until a US structure was in place.  This goes back to the November 06 mtg where GS primates asked US bishops to submit to their timing.  I think we are seeing the fruits of that labor.  It seems pretty clear that a new structure (province) will be organized soon.  When it is, the “alphabet soup” will all be combined into to this new entity.  Will it be recognized by Cantebury?  Will anyone care?  I look forward to this day when all US orthodox feel united in one structure under a bishop or college of bishops.

usma87,

All five overseas supervisory schemes have stated the temporary nature of their oversight...until a structure is firmly in place.  With or without Canterbury, we will go forward, as practicing Anglicans.

cont.

Not to mention the meeting called by +Bob Pittsburg, for this fall, of a ‘College of Bishops’.

A college or house of bishops is being created from whose midst, the primatial “vicar” will be selected.  As a mission field, it is only natural that the various sending provinces would be involved in creating the formal structures that will govern the mission’s relationship with the rest of the Communion.

Will it be recognized by Canterbury?  Will anyone care?

But if you wiah to maintain the Anglican Communion, then surely you must care - unless you think that this is no longer central and Anglicanism is something separate from the denomination which acknowledges the centrality of Canterbury

I can’t see much mileage in saying to RW ‘you have to throw out TEC and accept the takeover of the communion by the Global South’ - not that this is actually possible given Canterbury’s status as an established church.

This debate isn’t just about America and what happens there.

Interesting to note that he was elected in December 2006.  Looks like Tanzania may have slowed some actions down.  Looks like TEC’s actions brought in +Gomez though.  Some have commented that +Gomez’s approval may have aliented some moderate primates - more likely will influence them to support +Gomez’s position.  I think the key to this and Kenya’s annoucment is that Kenya and Uganda needed a representative at this late Sept meeting - someone needs to be the signatory for them to join the new Province/Coalition/Federation or whatever.

As to Rev. Woodward’s comments - this is definetely a homegrown rebellion. It is too large and gathering to much speed to be merely the result of foreign and IRD meddling.  However - the 13 colonies would not likely have suceeeded absent intervention by France.

"Bishop Orumbi’s statement is a tribute to Hypocrisy. He has openly fomented and encouraged the rebellion he now supports as being home grown. He has done so by trashing Anglican polity, Anglican comprehensiveness and centuries old belief in the authority of scripture.”

It seems to me that TEC has the corner on Hypocrisy, rebellion, and trashing belief in the authority of Scripture.  None of this would be happening if TEC had remained true to “the faith once given”.

Sorry.  It seems that the end blockquote command is not working.

Several of us have commented on other threads that the current process is in some way coordinated.  A vice appears to be tightening, though we may find it gripping on Jello!  Nevertheless, several matters are clear: 1) there remains time for a repentant TEC to turn back from progressing its New Theology of Inclusion/pluralism [pray with me they do], 2) if it continues in its rebellion against The Lord Jesus and His Father refusing to be led by the Holy Spirit the outcome for that institution (can’t bring myself to call it a church...though I understand many faithful are caught within its structures) is in God’s hands [Pray with me for His very personal and infinite grace and mercy upon TEC], 3) those inside will have somewhere to turn to from October 1st onward [Praise The Lord].  The next Anglican presence in the USA will be thanks to some Spiritually tough Men like Rwanda, Uganda, Kenya, Nigeria, Martin+, John+, Bob+, Bill+ and many many, others in the trenches.  Good people one and all, God bless and God Speed.
L’Chaim!  Ifan....

Folks,

I realize that in many ways I’m like an outsider looking in , at least at this point. But, it seems to me that if this fellow is so great, he’s needed as a part of TEC, not as a bishop for the church of Uganda giving oversight to congregations here in the U.S. God have mercy!!

How can these Africans rescue you?  Our refuge and strength as Christians is in the Lord. Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?  Doesn’t it make more sense to lovingly address these problems from within our denominations, rather than running away from the challenges? How does this help the church of Jesus Christ from a universal perspective.

Perhaps I’m beating a dead horse, here. But, I have to say it again, to me this is abandoning our brothers and sisters in Christ, and fomenting schism in the church.

Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?
Good grief.

plainsparson said:

ALL THE primates agreed to a deadline for TEC to respond. That Deadline is Sept 30. It which has not passed. It is clear, that the statement was a farce, most of these plans have been underway for a long time. (you can’t deny the vast orthodox conspiracy now)

It was assumed that, sometime prior to the magic date of 9/30, somebody in TECusaCORP (PB, Executive Council, HOB, the janitors at 815, et cetera) would make a good faith effort to respond to the DeS Communique in a meaningful and, hopefully, conciliatory way. So far, NO ONE associated with the TECusaCORP revisionista wing has responded with anything other than a resounding screw you, which is anything but conciliatory. It is evident that neither the HOB or anyone else is likely to change that position between now and 9/30, so why wait? It should be manifest to all by now that +++Cantuar intends to practice his fiddle playing while the AC burns unless someone (the GS) drags him, kicking and screaming, back into the arena to exercise a little authority.

So, plainsparson, it is evident that you need a “tinfoil hat” to protect you from that nasty ol’ VCAC. And it is evident that the rest of need to throw another log on the fire and bring the heat up a notch. Why postpone a train wreck?

the snarkster

No worries about responding to baiting, it is a fruitless excercise.

Once again I see the confusion between action and reaction wrt what is happening.

First ballot up on liveblog, check it out

T19 has postedBishop Iker’s reply.

The Province of Uganda has chosen wisely in selecting Fr. John Guernsey as the Bishop for their congregations in North America.  Fr. Guernsey is a deeply prayerful and spiritual man who has provided solid leadership as a regional dean for the Anglican Communion Network.  His commitment to Jesus Christ and his missionary vision for Anglicanism have been a real inspiration during the past several years of unprecedented conflict in our Church.

I congratulate Fr. Guernsey on his election and pledge to him my full support and cooperation as he undertakes this challenging new ministry as a Bishop in the Church of God.

The Rt. Rev. Jack Leo Iker
Bishop of Fort Worth

This is adapted from a post I made at TitusOneNine.

Addressing those who say there is “no master plan” and that this violates the DES Communique:  The primates - as a GROUP - have agreed to play out the process through the Instruments of Unity.  That process is to give TEC till Sept. 30 to render a decision on DES, then for Rowan to call together the primates to make decisions - including, supposedly, decisions on withdrawing Lambeth invitations.

The GS primates clearly do not believe (nor does anyone else) that TEC will comply with the DES Communique.  Given Kearon’s comments and Rowan’s actions to date on Lambeth invitations, the GS primates have no trust at all in Rowan Williams.  So they are of mind to take action NOW.  But collectively, as a GROUP, they can’t, without pre-empting the Communion process.  But anyone who thinks the Guernsey and Atwood consecrations are not part of coordinated action has their head in the sand.

My theory is that the above is the reason why the GS primates are not yet openly working together.  They will wait to see what happens post-Sept. 30.  One of three scenarios will transpire:

1. Discipline will be agreed upon and TEC Lambeth invitations will be withdrawn (except for Windsor specific bishops).  The primates will implement a new oversight plan for North America made up of Windsor TEC bishops and the GS overseen bishops included in one College of Anglican Bishops.  The existing GS overseen bishops will become part of this College.
2. Discipline will be agreed upon and TEC Lambeth invitations will be withdrawn (except for Windsor specific bishops).  There will be no official Anglican oversight, but the primates will recognize the GS initiatives as legitimate.  The GS primates will then come together and coordinate their oversight initatives into a proto-province.
3. There will be no discipline or Rowan will try dragging things out.  The GS primates will come together and coordinate their oversight initiatives into a new North American province.  The GS will still give Rowan some more time to discipline TEC before the AC split actually happens, but they would establish the new Province nonetheless.

Remember, individual GS interventions in North America is nothing new since DES.  Collective GS primatial action would be new.

Peter,
Praise the Lord! 

Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?

And just how, Grace, can we tell our children “We go to church every Sunday, but you must ignore the bishop in charge of the church because he is preaching heresy.  But even though he is preaching heresy, we give money to the church every week so that they can pay his salary, and pay for the diocesan newsletter, which spreads his heresy.  And, of course, some of the money goes to pay the rector who the bishop installed after he inhibited our parish priest. And what is left of the money we give goes to pay the lawyers who are suing your Uncle Ed, because he was on the vestry of his church, and voted in a way the bishop didn’t like.”
That, Grace, is how it is a threat to our relationship with the Lord.  We will never abandon our brothers and sisters in Christ.  What is happening now is our brothers and sisters in Christ reaching across thousands of miles because they will not abandon us.  TEC has decided to leave the holy, catholic and apostolic Church, but that Church is refusing to die the death that TEC has decreed for it.

The info is already posted at the acn site, just as it was with Atwood+, almost instantly

http://www.acn-us.org/icon/

The letters in the alpahabet soup are starting to move around to spell something.  He that hath ears, let him hear!

Ok, DOK, what is my penance for answering a troll?  Lol.
TJ

Ifan - the vice is tightening on “Anglican Fudge”

MM - I agree that this is not a US problem.  I think ++RW has significant issues in the UK.  That’s my point.  I would like us to remain Anglican and in communion with Cantebury.  BUT, if the ABC continues in his denial, delay, fudge.....A new orthodox AC based somewhere else is ok with me.  If Cantebury ceases to protect the faith, then why should we seek to be in communion with it?

Well, if by ‘orthodox’ you mean ‘without any liberals’, how can it be then led and focused on a church which has a significant liberal element such as the CofE?

Grace,
In kindness to you I must ask are you a member of an Anglican Chuch or an Episcopal Church? The reason I ask, is because as wonderful a thought as you made it just isn’t reality of what has gone on in ECUSA and the Anglican Communion since as recent as 2003 and and a far back as te early 80’s or farther back and it is now 2007! So I have to ask if you are a member of one or the other, have you been keeping up with all the news and events and in conversation with other brothers & sisters in your parish? Or maybe you belong to another denomination and just aren’t privvy to what is happening to the Epsicopalians & Anglicans and don’t understand our Canons & Constitutions and Articles of Faith?

These men who are now being elected under the ongoing relaignment of Anglicanism in America are the Fathers in God of our generation and are the very men who if elected in TEC in the first place would have spared the whole Communion this current distraction from its global mission--thanks be to God that with men like Martyn, Bill, and now John we will soon be back to work...now what about Bob Duncan as our Primate!

Yes, this certainly gives the appearance of being a coordinated effort out of Africa, and I say, “Thanks be to God.”

Don

Congratulations, John!  This is wonderful!

I had no idea things were working in this direction, and if George knew, he didn’t let on , but it seems so logical.  I’m tickled pink.

A question about some of the posts—I am not sure this is the primordial over-site requested in the Communique?  I thought that was for congregations still in TEC?  Or is John going to oversee more than the Anglican parishes under Uganda?

Um, John?  Does this mean we have to start calling you by a title or something?

Blessings,
Pat Kashtock
BTW—as an explanation for my last question, someone mentioned John Guernsey’s humility.  He and the pastor of his daughter church never seemed too fond of being called by a title like “Father,” or anything else for that matter.  Instead they seemed to prefer to be called by their first names just like their parishioners.  So, partly I’m teasing, but I actually don’t know if these sorts of things “have” to change when one becomes a bishop.  John is a wonderful, loving warm hearted person, and this news has made my day!

Mr Woodward:

There are things you can do - but one of them is NOT trash my bishop.  You want hypocritical bishops?  Go look in the House of Bishops or have lunch with Shori.  These people are destroying the Faith, are duplicitious, only care about their empty buildings and their money and their Universalistic religion.

In contrast this man has only come to gather the sheep they have allowed the wolves to destroy and devour.

SO, in short, knock it off and TRY looking in your own church for hypocrites instead of picking on people who are TRYING to do God’s Will.

Grace, in my opinion, you have it exactly backward.  ECUSA abandoned its Anglican brethren around the world and initiated the schism (if that’s what we have).

Early Church Christians considered it of paramount importance to separate themselves from heretical bishops, and early orthodox bishops had the same urgency to remove the heretical ones from authority.  This is a well-established principle.

Look, it’s apparent to me from the totality of your comments that you’re a mature sister in the Lord, but not everyone is in that situation.  It should be clear that a U.S. bishop teaching heresy is a wolf that could lead these less-grounded ones to their spiritual deaths.

TJ! My brother in Christ! You are forgiven because I know how hard it is to not go there! But, I have been good and I have tried to warn others not to tread, but alas it can be a difficult tempation to resist, Aye! Since I am not Deacon Payne, I cannot in good conscience make you drop and do 20 “Are Father who Art.....” with 10 BCP’s on your back!

Go in Peace and continue to serve the Lord!

TBW goes ballistic:

He has openly fomented and encouraged the rebellion he now supports as being home grown.

Just a minute, Tom.  I thought all these poor benighted African primitives were being hoodwinked by big-money neocons from the IRD.  Which is it?

He has done so by trashing Anglican polity, Anglican comprehensiveness and centuries old belief in the authority of Scripture.

Ummm, the authority of Scripture, Tom?  A toleration of different churchmanships allowing the complete trashing of Christian teaching on sexual ethics?  An “Anglican polity” that believes it needs to completely reinvent Christianity every three years based on the doctrines found in the editorial pages of The New York Times?

Surely you can do better than this.

Grace,
No offense,but have you ever seen the qualifications for church leaders in 1 Timothy and in Titus,especially Titus 1:9.
‘he must hold to the sure truths of doctrine,so as to be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and refute objections raised by any.’
Moffatt
He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught,so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.’ ESV
It seems to me that when a bishop is more representative of the folks described by verses 10-11 of Titus 1(insubordinate,impose on people with empty arguments,deceiving,undermining and upsetting(Greek-Katastrophe) families(and I believe that includes churches),teaching objectionable doctrine for the base end of making money)he qualifies to be recognised as such and regarded not as bishop but as a wolf with a mitre.
As to schism,TEC already committed it in allowing the wolves to rule and teach,this is just part of the fruit of their actions.

Eclipse:  One thing to keep in mind about Tom Woodward and the liberals - they were quite confident that things had swung decisively in their favor after the initial shock of DES.  The HOB had strongly rebuffed DES, Rowan Williams had not acted on the Pastoral Council, there was an intense debate between Seitz and Kennedy on the blogs (and yes, the liberals read these blogs!!) which suggested that orthodox unity was falling apart, Rowan Williams had included almost all TEC and ACC bishops in the Lambeth invites, and Kearon was winking and nodding that Robinson would be there also as a “guest.” I think that Naugton crowed about all of this in his blog.

Over the last few days though, the liberals have seen the uncloaking of an obviously coordinated structure for a North American replacement province by a very powerful group of primates that Rowan Williams can’t afford to ignore.  What’s more, the moderate conservative Drexel Gomez (who is known to have Rowan’s ear) has indicated his support of the GS initiative.  Add to this the serious blunder committed by the Diocese of Olympia in extolling their Muslim priest as a great sign of future Episcopalianism.  I think it suddenly became apparent to the liberals that silence did not necessarily equate with inaction.

I think that poor Tom and his liberal friends have had a bad week.

Hosea6:6:

Meanwhile, yes, Hosea, you are completely right - MY BISHOP CONTINUES TO ROCK!

Thanks be to God for him and all the other Faithful bishops who help us remember that in this world there ARE Anglican bishops who care about Christ more than political agendas, their own shade of miter, and their money.

Re:  Tithing to the Diocese of Uganda

We do joyfully - it is SO NICE to help fund a Christian Community that is telling others about Christ - instead of watching your tithe fund Those who want “Reproductive Choice” (e.g. killing children).

Hmmmm. More bishops which aren’t going to be recognized by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Are the GS afraid that no one will come to their alternate jamboree?

I agree with Grace!
As an outsider looking in it just does not make sense how the solution to complex questions which all Christendom faces, not just TEC, can be solved by this multiple divisions.
African Christians have their own issues to deal with and in many of these provinces that come “to the rescue” of the poor Episcopalians, attitudes that could be considered as contrary to the gospel exist.
What will you then do when these “Global South” primates begin to address in their own provinces the inevitable issues and questions brought on by globalization and a modern society...leave?
It is not going to be possible to keep all debate silenced nor all opinions equal in the authority structure of Anglicanism, as it regards the place of women, gay people and their relationships, the proper way to interpret Scripture an the ammount of diversity to be tolerated in a faith community....!

No service is done to the cause of Christ by these splits continuing....look where it has brought us since 1054, certainly no closer to doctrinal correctness, nor agreement, nor the prayer of Jesus being fulfilled… ! Progressives are everywhere in the Church, they may even be your own kids or you in time to come...you can not get rid of us by leaving...people evolve, change their mind, rethink their position , just like conservatives are in the church to stay....its silly to pretend otherwise. That will happen even in Uganda or Kenya.
blessings
seraph

ruidh,

Theirs won’t be a ‘jamboree’, theirs will be a workshop for righteousness, a clearinghouse for rescue and relief of the oppressed.
As we quote Paul in the Mass, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of which I am chief.”

jamesw:

I know, and I wish I could lament and feel sorrow for them, but, alas my empathy is somehow lacking - like of like Luke watching the destruction of the Death Star in move 4 I must admit, while Vader remains on the loose, we have struck a nasty blow to the Empire, you must admit.

LOL! 

You know, part of my reaction is that I FINALLY have a bishop of whom I do not have to be completely embarrassed of the entire time - He actually believes Jesus IS the Christ!  The Bible IS the Word of God!  I realize these are ‘just fringe beliefs’ mind you, in Christianity, but I admit that their presence is refreshing.

(and yes, the liberals read these
blogs!!)

And so do Bishops and Archbishops!

Come off it, seraph.  The division in Christendom in 1054 resulted in two bodies, out of communion with one another and each claiming to be the one true Church, a situation which still exists today.  Each of these Global South organizations enjoy friendly relations and are decidedly in communion.  And, on a broader level, the Anglican Communion has never claimed to be the one true Church, only a branch of the same.

In other words, your comparison is completely, absolutely and totally inapt.

Ruidh, I think you forget who is in the majority in the AC.

But that doesn’t mean that there won’t still end up as being two Communions. robroy - appears ever more likely.

I think it’s hilarious that you guys count ASA when you want to boost your numbers, but much prefer structures like the Primates Meeting which have no lay participation whatsoever.

Suffice it to say that not every person in the pews shares the concerns of the Primates.

Mike asks a basic question:

Peter ; you speak as if ‘God’ is a ‘real person’, with opinions and ideas, sitting up in the sky looking down on us all.
This is the stuff of nursery school....is it really what conservatives believe?

Yes, like all other Christians:

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

It would make very little sense for an impersonal force without ideas or opinions (both quite definitive, in the literal sense) to either create a specific universe or send Someone down to save it, let alone to use a Spirit to inform prophets of the content of those “ideas and opinions”.

I fear, Mike, that the “stuff of nursery school” isn’t Christianity, but rather the simpleminded egocentric epistemology of our terribly, terribly modern glitterati—and those who would ape them.

Seraph,

African Christians have their own issues to deal with and in many of these provinces that come “to the rescue” of the poor Episcopalians, attitudes that could be considered as contrary to the gospel exist.

We are one family in Christ as Christians who follow Jesus Christ as our Resurrected Savior and thus we are to bare each others burdens and be our brothers keeper. I think we can help each other with an and in all issues that are existent now and issues that arise in the future. We & many have tried and asked for ECUSA to repent and come back to the True faith and Gospel once delivered and they (revisionist and liberals) have refused blantantly! The Lord also tells us to not be yoked with unbelievers, hetetics, to shake the dust from our sandals.... so go ahead and stay if you wish. You are certainly entitled to make your own choices, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord in joy and that house includes the GS!

On March 3, 2004, Alison Barfoot wrote to the Ekklesia Society Primates and Bishops with a draft Proposal for Overseas AEO.  The draft was prepared “After several conversations with Bill Atwood of Ekklesia, John Guernsey, Martyn Minns, and some clergy seeking ‘offshore’ AEO as an interim stage towards the realignment of Anglicanism in North America and the re-establishment of biblically orthodox faith as normative in North American Anglicanism” Of the three mentioned, none were elected by the people that they will be asked to serve.  We have Ugandan clergy in our diocese.  Did they or their congregations have any input into this or is the imposition of unelected bishops what African congregations can expect in the future? How is this different from Rome?

He actually believes Jesus IS the Christ!  The Bible IS the Word of God!  I realize these are ‘just fringe beliefs’ mind you, in Christianity,

Fringe?????????? I believe these are CORE!

I, for one, am thrilled. I met John while we were training for a mission trip several years ago. On thing that stood out to me is that 1. He is a leader, and acts as such, 2. he is humble, 3. has a genuine faith, and 4. cares about his flock.

Bio here: http://www.acn-us.org/icon/bishops/guernsey.html

Phil:
Why...thank you for your comment!  Is it “inapt” or inept?

From where I am standing it all looks the same...Christians who are not in communion with one another for one reason or another , which of course they all justify!

I find the idea that we can all live in communion even in the midst of our differences, not walk away, not exclude, clarify our understanding in places where we do not agree, a very attractive one indeed. It sure beats all of the dogmatism, exclusion, judgementalism in the name of sound doctrine and for the sake of “the name” that I have been exposed to growing up in the Church.
blessings
seraph

Orombi writes, “You and your congregation are still full members of your current Diocese in the Church of Uganda.”

Would someone explain to me, please, what this means?  Are they members in the Diocese of Virginia or Uganda?

Even if a US bishop is truly teaching heresy, how is this a threat to our faith or relationship with the Lord?
Even if the parents are teaching their children bad grammar, how is that a threat to the children’s educational success?
Even if the coach is teaching the players illegal moves, how is that a threat to the team’s success in the finals?
Even if the Chinese are using non-protein substitutes in the animal feed for the pigs, how is that a threat to the quality of the pork that is sold?
Even if we give amnesty to illegal immigrants, how is that a threat to our efforts to secure the border?
Even if the church provides smae sex erotic partner blessing ceremonies, how is that a threat to biblical authority?

Ruidh avers:

Suffice it to say that not every person in the pews shares the concerns of the primates.

Of course, of course, the whole homosexuality thing is quite overblown and it’s only a tiny proportion of the pew-sitters who care.  In a tiny number of parishes.  So why go to all this legal trouble instead of just negotiating an amicable buyout for this hardly-noticeable couple of buildings?

And why are so many in our House of Bishops trying so desperately to conceal from their congregants what is happening?  Why aren’t they all bragging daily about how progressive and modern the church has become?

More encouraging good news today.  Praise be to the living God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit!  He is providing for us--one step at a time. What a privilege it is to see Him at work, rescuing all those who love Him and want to live according to His Word.  We will see unity--true unity in Christ in a realigned orthodox Anglican church. We need to be patient as this all unfolds.  I love the verse Archbishop Orombi chose in welcoming his new American bishop.  “Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; [and the next verse] not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.” This is exactly what he himself is doing for us.  Let us praise and thank God once again for Archbishop Orombi’s leadership.

DOK4hs,

I’m a member of the ELCA. Our churches are in full communion. My feeling is that there is a diversity of belief in all the denominations. I don’t think this is just about TEC. I think when we find brothers and sisters ensnared in heresy, we should lovingly engage, and try to persuade them away from spiritual harm by the grace of God.

Would Jesus turn His back? Phil, I hear what you’re saying. But, I also think that we need to trust God’s spirit to guide, and hold His children in the truth. 

We should certainly have a concern for our children. I would not have allowed my kids when they were young to sit under the teaching of a heretical teacher. But, I also think they are much more impacted by our teaching and example at home, and also at the local parish level, than by the personal beliefs of the bishop. We can set a good example for them by loving people unconditionally and contending for the faith.

Also, guys, I just want to say that it’s important to distinguish between genuine heresy, and false teaching, as opposed to committed Christian believers having a legitimate difference of opinion concerning the right interpretation or application of the Scripture.

Seraph, thanks for your comments, too. Good food for thought.

I can only ask for your prayful consideration of what I’m trying to share. Everyone does have to follow his/her own conscience before the Lord.

so go ahead and stay if you wish. You are certainly entitled to make your own choices, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord in joy and that house includes the GS!,

Dearest, thankyou for your acknowledgement that I am free to make my own choices as are you. FYI .. I am not now nor have I ever been Episcopalian...just curious!

blessings
seraph

Craig, you replied to merseymike’s off-topic bait, perhaps not noticing that he had been strictly warned by StandFirm to knock it off. Don’t allow him to take this thread off focus.

Don’t feed the trolls.

… none were elected by the people that they will be asked to serve.

I can assure you my parish approved our affiliation with the Church of Uganda - we actually asked Barfoot to assist us. We understood (the vestry) that as this a new thing brought on by the actions of ECUSA/TEC, that not all things would be fully known as we Americans like things - nice, tidy, and by “our” approval. I for one have no issue with the procedures. And, after all, such regularity of canons, order, structures, and affirmations have NOT served ECUSA/TEC well over the past several years.

EmilyH decries the imposition of unelected Bishops on the laity, and asks how it’s different from Rome.  Well, it’s not too different from Rome, of course.  Nor from Canterbury or Constantinople, for that matter.  Your point is?