It was a nice place to be baptized in. While I certainly don’t remember mine (infant baptism) I do have a vague recollection of Lura’s, my younger sister. The church, in Longview, was not large and seemed to me to be a little dark and/or gloomy. The service was at the back of the church and the font was carved and made of wood. My parents were there as were her godparents, the Bennets. My mother was holding her through the part of the service that I remember. I think that my maternal grandmother was also there.
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By the fifth grade I was going to church on Sundays with my mother and became an acolyte. Father Westerford insisted that we have practice every Saturday was followed by some games, usually tag or the like. I was there every Saturday and Sunday although frequently my mother would drop me off and come back after the services to pick me up. For one Christmas eve service I remember fainting during the service (I had been standing with my knees locked) and having to be helped out of the sanctuary. Learning to stand without locking one’s knees stood me in good standing when I was in the Marine Corp. Anyway it was during this time that I learned some of the basic teachings of protestant Christianity. I was too young to question the Rector about his theology (and the young didn’t question their elders at that time.) In the late eighties I call Father Westerford out of the blue and he still remembered me and remembered my father as the pretty good golfer!Fast forward about thirty years. While in seminary I became disillusioned with Baptist (and fundamental Christian) theology and was searching. For a while we attended a couple Episcopal churches, one pastored by a nut case of an evangelical Episcopal priest. It was while attending that church that I made application to be ordained a priest. (For life of me I can’t recall my thinking or my motives for this. ) Anyway after submitting the application I (along with Pam) had to under go an interview. For this we drove to Colorado Springs (from Denver) one Saturday morning and met with a woman priest. It became obvious fairly fast in the interview that since I wasn’t a transsexual or at least a homosexual or a woman and because I had gone to a conservative Baptist seminary I wasn’t going to make it. In my rejection I was told that “I didn’t fit into the broad Episcopal milieu.”
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I don’t fit within the broad Episcopal milieu
Wednesday, July 18, 2007 • 11:03 pm
46 Comments •
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Yes Intercessor! This man was being covered & protected by God! But, what an eye opener! For all their rantings (the liberal left revsionists) of “being inclusive, love everyone for who they are, no judging,” PLEASE!!!! Lies! Lies! and more Lies!!! This is a very telling story and I do hope that this young man and his family have found a wonderful Spirit Filled Traditional Church to shepherd! |
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The presence of a Spirit-led Christian among unbelievers is about like a skunk at a tea party, ‘cause the hope of glory translates to a sure judgment. The righteousness of God in Christ exposes their sin for what it is. Not politically correct, or avoidable, for that matter, without dire consequences!. By the grace of God, we can say, “I yam what I yam!” Getting the sinner’s boot just confirms ya ain’t in the club no more! Praise God for the Door! |
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Respectfully, reading the last paragraph, I don’t get a picture of someone who had really clearly understood what he was doing, and why. Surely, someone who did would remember what they were! While there were probably some of the issues he raised in the rejection, I suspect, based solely on what he has written, that there were some very legitimate issues of temperament. |
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Hey, Greg, I think I would have wanted some more specific information. Why didn’t they feel you fitted into the general Episcopal milieu at the time, and could you have made some changes? What does that all mean? But, c’mon brother, it wasn’t because you’re not gay, transexual, or a woman. I know when I needed to be approved by my synod in the ELCA there was concern that I actually affirmed the teaching of the Lutheran church, and I was questioned very closely about this. There does seem to be a fear, a misperception, I think, that all evangelicals are anabaptist in their thinking, like Southern Baptists with collars on. But, Greg, God is ultimately in control. I think if we are called into a ministry, even if the door is slammed shut in our face, the Lord can open a window, or He has something else in mind. He directs all our paths. |
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Merseymike, To tell the truth, there is really a great diversity in all the mainline denominations in the U.S. I know you would never realize it from reading some of the blogs, but there are plenty of churches here with a huge spectrum of opinion in one congregation, and the folks are not all at each other’s throat. There are liberal, and more conservative congregations in TEC, and everything in between. What is it like in Britain? I’m just curious, Mersey. |
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This guy had such tenuous ties to Anglicanism that he thought beginning the discernment process was making “application to be ordained a priest”. And he doesn’t remember his motives for seeking ordination, or what led him to it. No, it doesn’t sound like he was a good candidate for ordination, after all. |
Perhaps he craves institutional affirmation, approval, and want social normalization of his (fill-in-the-blank)-doxis-praxis, much in the same way that people having a different (fill-in-the-blank)-doxis-praxis have transformed the Episcopal Church into the liberal denomination (unrecognizable to anglicans) that it currently is… |
From Sarah’s wonderful analysis of TECtonics - and how it comes through in this thread! |
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Why wouild a conservative wish to become a priest in a liberal denomination in any case (which is what the Episcopal Church in America is)? Because politics isn’t actually what church is about? It’s about God and praise and worship. Not the leftist agenda, not the rightist one either. Speaking as one who was never a “Republican at prayer” and isn’t a “commie at prayer” either. |
Let’s turn that around shall we? Why would a liberal wish to be a priest in a conservative denomination? As for TEC being a liberal denomination…..I would just have to say that it wasn’t and has become that due to politically correct, GLBT activists hijacking the church but it is not that strong as it is on a path of dying and destruction because of this new leadership that has no moral basis to it and has no Biblical Foundation….it is being rebuilt on sand! |
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My own discussions with Jim - the former bishop of Nebraska while going through the so-called “discernment process” were the most awkward, COMPLETE WASTES OF TIME - I have ever spent in my life. Nice guy. Never said two words. Never asked any questions of me. He was literally watching the clock until his retirement and this was totally apparent during these meetings. After a while, I decided the “discernment process” had actually worked. In Groucho Marx’s words: “I didn’t want to be a part of any club that would take me”. Of course, I attended the most conservative parish in the diocese….so maybe I was on the black list….I’ll never know, but it saved me from having to be in a position where I’m more worried about my pension THAN THE TRUTH. |
It really never was intended by Cranmer and Hooker, or White and Seabury, to be a denomination spanning liberal and conservative. And that is not what “broad church” was intended to mean either. It was intended to be an orthodox denomination which recognized a wide spectrum of liturgical practice from (near) Roman on the one hand to Calvinist on the other. The divisions have come as a result of the imposition of social agendas in place of theology. So, it will not be a split between liberal and conservative churches, it will be a split between an orthodox church and a non-orthodox one. |
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ODC- you’re welcome, although I fear there will be no converting MM. However, we can perhaps confuse him with the facts now and then. It is amusing to me that some of the same people who once branded me as a member of the radical left (1960s) now brand me as a member of the religious right (2000s). And my political and religious views are essentially the same as 40 years ago. Perhaps 40 years from now, MM will be the “stodgy old Tory” of his neighborhood. |
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But I do largely agree as well. There are questions about the historical factors - certainly liberal theology was part of Anglicanism since liberal theology came into existence. The fact is that it is a denomination which now spans liberal and conservative, and thats what we have to deal with. The substantive point is that there is nothing which binds orthodox and non-orthodox christians. We agree there. I simply wish that this could have been recognised by both sides and some sort of civilised and agreed settlement, internationally, reached, but thats not going to happen. My political views are broadly as they were, and in the british context, thats left-of-centre but not on the fringes ( though in US terms, thats very left wing!). But religion-wise, no, they have changed, more towards a post-Christian position. |
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I am the author of the blog that Greg has quoted above and would like to add my comment to these comments. First, thank you Greg for the quote. Since my article was meant more as a reminiscence of more than 60 years acquaintance with the Episcopal church and was not written as a critique I have felt it necessary to write another blog less as a reminiscence. It can be found here: http://franklyfrankwp.wordpress.com/ I thank the person who wrote the comment calling me a young person. I also wish to add the last sentence of my original blog here so that all can see I do give God the credit where credit is due. I said, “Now, in part because of this experience, no one can convince me that God ever gives us more than we can handle.” |
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Not too far from my own experiances, except I had the added black mark of being young (26). I was told to “come back in thrity years” and see if I still wanted to be ordained. Not sure if it was the age or also being known as fairly orthodox to the openly universalist rector, and the son of a known Republican. Two weeks later a 57 year old who was taking early retirement approached the same rector about discernment, and it was announced joyfully from the pulpit next sunday. Had to be old and Blue to get to seminary. |
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We are celebrating our first anniversary as an Anglican church this Sunday! The blessings have been too numerous to count. We have all been very much aware of what God is teaching us in this whole daunting process. As we celebrate our anniversary this Sunday, we will give thanks to God for sending this special young man to us. The first time we heard him preach, mouths were hanging open and tears were streaming down my cheeks and many others. Later this year we will celebrate his ordination to the Anglican priesthood. He knows and we know that God’s hand and perfect timing have been in all of this. My prayer for the writer of the above article is that he will find similar blessings. Thanks be to God who leads us and guides us in all things through faith in His Son Jesus Christ! |
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Thank you Betty Lee Payne for your story which has given me much encouragement in my own quest to serve the Lord. I have knocked on death’s door three times in the last seven years and the Lord has sent me back each time - I now believe for a reason. I am almost 78 years old, fully retired, living alone, and have enrolled in an on-line seminary program leading to a MA in Theology. The program is certified by Canterbury. I envision some kind of ministry if I can achieve that goal. I hope that, in a CANA parish, I won’t be rejected for my orthodoxy and age. I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. |
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tjmcmahon: |
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I am again amused by MikeO’Mersey. Seems bright enough, but has a historical perspective that spans all of a week or two. He thinks the temporary acsendence of the left is permanent. There will never be another Tory government, right Mike? That the British citizen is so bemused by the dazzling words and stage management of the LBGTB folks that they will never again see the absolute logical contradiction of the Left’s position: What appalls and offends 98% of the population is normative behaviour. Sure it is Mike. Sell that goofy idea and I’ll give you first option on a dandy little bridge for sale in Brooklyn. Great money making possibilites.
I hoist a beaker of Glenfarcas to the inevitable return of conservative government to the Mother of Parliaments and her sorely beset citizens. You went too fast Mike. |
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I don’t think you live in the UK, teddy. because if you did, you would realise that the ongoing culture wars which exist in the US are hardly a blip on the radar here. Of course the political pendulum will swing again, and there will be a Conservative government. But I think I can confidently say that in the foreseeeable future, their programme will not incorporate gay-bashing measures. To give an example - their recent commission on tax reforms to privilege marriage was followed up by a clear statement made by Tory leader Cameron that civil partnerships will be treated as the equivalent of marriage under their plans. There really isn’t a right-wing conservative platform which can hope to gain an electoral majority in Britain. And your perception that the british population is champing at the bit to abolish gay rights legislation is simply wide off the mark. |
MM, I hope you realize, this isn’t a silly p**sing contest of ‘I KNOW you are but what am I?” |
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I’m new and I’m Irish..so forgive any gaffs on both counts. I’ve been reading postings here for a while and see lots similarities with our own Irish Anglican branch of the Communion, though we aren’t as polarised in our expression of diversity as TEC appears to be. We’re at least still living together with all the tensions and the OVERWHELMING desire on all sides is to maintain that and to seek a way, under God, to work through these present not inconsiderable difficulties. I’m not sure why there is so much bitterness and wedge driving in USA Anglicanism ( sorry, that’s how it comes across ). |
I’m sure attending a conservative Baptist seminary didn’t help, though, that’s for sure. (laughing)
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Not much of an inclusive, welcoming church, eh?