Openly Lesbian Priest Among Nominees for Bishop of Chicago

There is no turning back on the full inclusion of the baptized into the Body of Christ—only moving forward into God’s future as an Episcopal Church committed to mission and ministry, to unity in diversity.

Well, that really rules out the possibility of genuine repentance from TEC, doncha think?

Plan B.  Firm, loving, timely discipline from ABC Williams and the primates.  Evidenced by substantive changes in Lambeth invite list, especially a revocation of previously extended Lambeth invitations.

No to Plan B?  Then the Lord will guide folks along Plan C.  Praise God that all good things come from Him in His time.

++Rowan are you reading this.  No they do not accept Lambeth 1.10.  No they are not compling with Windsor.  No they do not intend to even come close to doing what was asked at DES.

Do you get it NOW?

RS Bunker

The announcement is on the Diocesan website http://www.epischicago.org/News/ViewArticle.cfm?ArticleID=498

Good for them. Hope it goes through. It’s not as though we didn’t expect as much from them and it would be silly to expect them to change. Time to stop treating these developments as a catastrophic, although it would be nice if the institutionalists caught a good dose of “I told you so” from it. But that’s too much to hope. Windsor Bishops, in truth, and institutionalists are our fifth column.

This announcement clearly justifies the decision of the Colorado parish, Church of the Holy Comforter, to biblically separate away from TEC to ACN.

Nice clarity prior to Sept. HoB meeting. 

It is long past time for the Episcopal Church to acknowledge that B033—the 2006 resolution designed to prevent the election of a gay or lesbian bishop—has failed ...  There is no turning back ...

Thanks Susan+ for not mincing words.

There is a fairly extensive interview with her here:
http://www.coolcleveland.com/index.php/Main/CoolClevelandInterviewJimRokakis?n=Main.CoolClevelandInterviewTracyLind

She had been suggested somewhat informally for Newark last time around, IIRC.

How much more proof do we need from TEC to see that they did not, do not and will not change their perilous journey to hell.  I for one will not follow them and if the Anglican Church will not support us and help us, then I feel we may need to find a denomination that will follow the right path to Christ Jesus.  The Anglican Church has been talking for more than 30 years and where has it gotten us?  We are more apart then we were 10 years ago and TEC keeps telling us to sit and talk and listen.  The more sitting and listening we do the less that gets resolved and we are losing more and more members in the process.  TEC will survive because of who they are, will the Anglican Church survive???????

LGBT: Lemmings galloping beyond Terra.

The only surprising thing about this statement from Integrity is the obvious abandonment of the claims of polity, that only GC can decide what the consitution means. Here we have Integrity saying the consitution means what Integrity wants it to mean. I guess it boils down to a choice of:

1. Integrity IS GC and all that gathering and meeting and stuff every three years is pure pagentry.

2. Any group, even the orthodox, conservative, traditional, reasserters can do whatever they like with no regard for the consitution.

Any bets as to which one it really is?

Anglicans to +Rowan, Anglicans to +Rowan, can you hear us now?

What more response do you need?

What message do you now have for TEc, to be presented to them at the September HOB?

What say ye to the faithful remnant, calling out for help from the shards of ECUSA (and PECUSA)?

If this action is not “in your face” to the ABC’s visit in NOLA I do not know what more would be needed to demonstrate to the ABC the route KJS is determined to take TEC.

The link to her bio is below.

http://www.trinitycleveland.org/people/lind.html

I have copied just a couple of items that stood out to me.

The Very Rev. Tracey Lind is Dean of Trinity Episcopal Cathedral as well as a city planner and author. Her ministry includes work for environmental justice, interfaith relations, sustainable urban planning, arts and culture, and the diversity of the Episcopal Church.

Tracey Lind began her ordained ministry as associate Rector of Christ Church in Ridgewood, New Jersey

Tracey Lind lives with her partner, Emily Ingalls, in Cleveland Heights.

 

If you have time the entire bio on The Cathedral website is worth reading.  I am sure she will be a very good representative for the MDG’s of KJS.

henryleroi writes:

Good for them. Hope it goes through ... Time to stop treating these developments as a catastrophic, although it would be nice if the institutionalists caught a good dose of “I told you so” from it.

Couldn’t agree more.  Everybody needs clarity.

I’m sure you run into situations where you have theologically conservative friends leaving, say, the Roman Catholic Church and looking for a new place to attend.  They ask to attend an Episcopal parish.  What do you tell them?

Probably the same thing I tell my lesbian and gay friends when they’re looking for a church: “Well, right now it looks like a good place, but I don’t know how it’ll work out if the direction of the wind changes.”

The whole business of passing B033 really screws up evangelism because you have to put an asterisk on people’s participation in the church.  Will the Episcopal Church swing hard right and adopt overtly homophobic policies?  If that’s necessary to preserve the budget and keep the property, I think it will, and there will of course be lots of contrite “I’m sorry, but you’re going to have to bear the cross” talk then, too, just as there was for B033.

Or will it swing hard left and give the right foot of fellowship to conservative clergy?  Again, if that’s where the money trail seems to lead, I think it will.

We need clarity.  If the church is going to commit to the idea that same-sex relationships are not sinful, I think that’s great.  If the church is willing to commit to the idea that same-sex relationships are sinful, then at least I’ll know not to keep referring lesbian and gay families to Episcopal churches.  But the church needs to commit, either way, and stop leading people on.

So I can only hope that the Very Rev. Lind becomes Bishop Lind, and I can understand why many of you, for different reasons, have the same hope.

Oh and lest everyone focus on Tracey Lind, we’ve got Margaret Rose nominated too. 
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/octoberweb-only/10-25-21.0.html
http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/index.php?p=3151
http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/index.php?p=3154

My My My.

Just for clarification, is she celibate?  What does she mean by “open?”  Does she acknowledge that she has same-gender attraction or does she act on it?  Is she partnered?  Just wondering.  I don’t know anything about her aside from the article she wrote, linked above.

Dear Tom Head,

I agree with everything you said in your excellent post except for the following:

“Will the Episcopal Church swing hard right and adopt overtly homophobic policies?”

What do you define as “overtly homophobic policies”?

No funny hats in this crowd.
    Don’t I recall, in my lifetime, that the Diocese of Chicago was considered a moderately conservative diocese?  If you had a vote in this election, and were a moderately conservative Episcopalian on church and social issues, if you diagreed with the decisions of GC in 03 and 06 but had no intentions of leaving TEC, who in this crowd would you vote for?  Maybe the guy from out west, but it looks like a field with a real leftwing slant.

And more on Margaret Rose here:

http://episcopalwomenscaucus.net/ruach/Summer2004_vol25_1/02March.html

Oh, to be Susan Russell.  The things you can get away with.  Can you imagine what the same press release from an orthodox equivalent (the opposite camp) would look like, and how the national media would respond?

“The big news today is that the Crucifixition, the standards of the early Church, Paul’s Letters, read every day in every Mass in the world, the Old Testament Moral Code, on which all our legal foundations rest, and the care and concerns of Christians worldwide have been rendered MOOT by the inclusion of an openly Lesbian Priest as a candidate for the position of Prince of the Church.” says baffled lifelong Christian Mike Bertaut.

“The inclusion of the Very Reverend Tracey Lind on the list of five extraordinarily qualified candidates for the Bishop of Chicago is a tremendous surrender to moral equivalency, societal degredation, and feelings over substance.  This nomination begs the question: How long can the big tent last when the theologically confused are continually put into positions of holding up the poles?  Despite Ms. Lind’s qualifications as an organizer or intellect, she fails the one test that matters:  Whether her version of Christianity will lead believers to salvation or into the pit.” 

Yeah, I’m sure nobody would react strongly to that.  Ya think?

KTF!!!....mrb

Cindy

Yes, she has a ‘life-partner’, according to her profile on the Chicago Diocesan website.

A sermon from May of 2007 by the The Rev. Timothy B. Safford, nominee.

A sermon on the Radical Inclusivity of God:
http://www.christchurchphila.org/Welcome_to_the_Christ_Church_Website/Ministry/Sermons/Sermons/109/vobId__467/

I must have read this sermon or similar 100 times now….is this like a hand out they give now?

I served in the DoC and no, it’s not a moderately conservative diocese.  It is a very liberal diocese with a few conservatives.  Their is a strong lesbigay coalition in the diocese.

Lind became dean in Cleveland in at least part because of the bishop’s shepherding of the process and concealing from all her sexual orientation and lifestyle.

Margaret Rose is the real story here ... I encourage anybody who hasn’t yet had lunch to check out Karen’s links.  Should Rose be elected, the Diocese of Chicago must be seen to have endorsed pagan rituals.

In a serious Christian organization, Rose not only wouldn’t be up for bishop (sic) of a large diocese, she’d be defrocked.

Antique notes

... all that gathering and meeting and stuff every three years is pure pagentry.

Well, I thought that <a > Integrity had already announced that.</a>

Wow there is another by Safford same theme on the Gospel of Mark
2:1-12

But Jesus is not forgiving sins the paralytic has committed, is he? No he is forgiving him the sins that those who blocked the door have put upon him, the sins of how he has been excluded because he is different for nothing he himself could control. In forgiving his sin, Jesus is taking away the sin of being different, strange, spare, and marvelously but uniquely different—for being simply the other that makes the dominant like me uncomfortable.

And then Jesus chastises the scribes, who have the front row, who are never excluded, who are always in the right, and always given deference. Jesus is telling them that sin is what you put on the other, not what the other has upon him for being simply alive.

“Take up your mat and walk,” Jesus tells the paralytic, and in a moment, he is resurrected from every projection that those paralyzed by prejudice and hatred and certainty have projected upon him. He is free, for the first time, to walk toward the sunrise into a future that God has imagined for him, leaving behind those in the confines of a house with exclusive walls and a hole in the roof, certain that they are the chosen, but truly paralyzed by a sin that will only keep them warm in the emptiness of their lives.

Jesus Christ speaks to us this day, over the centuries, through the details of the Gospel of the Mark: “Do not make the same mistake of the scribes. Do not be paralyzed in certainty that we are without sin when those who we see as different can’t get in to hear the words of liberation. Tear the roof off the place, if need be. And take up the pallet, and walk into the sunrise of God and the new day prepared for us.”

If we do, we’ll be the amazed, and join the chorus: “We have never seen anything like this.”

How can someone so utterly misinterpret so obvious a piece of scripture?

http://www.christchurchphila.org/Welcome_to_the_Christ_Church_Website/Ministry/Sermons/Sermons/109/vobId__469/

“Crucifixition”—Susan Russell,  Greg, here’s a new one for your lexicon.

This is one of those days where it just startles me afresh what a difference the internet makes to our current battles…

5 or 10 years ago, we *might* have heard something about a bishop election in Chicago after the fact. If by some chance we actually heard or read anything before, the names of the candidates likely would have been meaningless to us. Now we not only know the names of the candidates within minutes of their being released, but we’re reading sermon excerpts by some of them.  It’s something I’ve grown to take for granted in the past 2-3 years, but every now and then, it just amazes me…!

I read the interview and found this Q&A;very interesting and revealing:
Q:What’s your take on the controversy in the Episcopal church over gay ministers?
A:Well, I am one, so obviously I think we should be ordained. It should not be about our sexuality, it should be about the way we live our lives. I’m happy to be held to high moral standards and my sexual identity should not be the issue.”
So, “it sould be about the way we live our lives” but sexual identity should not be a part of it???? I don’t get it.

Truth Unites writes:

I agree with everything you said in your excellent post except for the following:

“Will the Episcopal Church swing hard right and adopt overtly homophobic policies?”

What do you define as “overtly homophobic policies”?

Sorry for this; sloppy wording on my part.  Though in the case of B033 I think the argument could be made that any progressive who voted for it was being homophobic, since there couldn’t be a theological reason for it (the logic, near as I can tell, went something like “Well, I don’t consider this a sin, but I’m willing to pass this resolution anyway because I don’t want us to be associated with those people”).

If one were to scrutinize the (P)ECUSA bishops of Chicago over the years, examining their actions and opinions, one could construct a nice “morality tale” about “facilis descensus Averni” (the easy descent to Hell) by showing how “moderate” Anglo-Catholicism morphed into “Liberal Catholicism” into empty ritualism and then into complete modernism.  The first bishop, Philander Chase (1835-1852) was a moderately high-church Evangelical.  His successor, Henry Whitehouse (1852-1874) was a devotee of the Oxford Movement and Tractarianism, who so harassed Evangelicals in his diocese that a large number of them seceded to the Reformed Episcopal Church towards the end of his episcopate and that of his successor, William McLaren (1875-1905), who was more Anglo-Catholic still—as were Charles Anderson (1905-1930), Sheldon Griswold (1930), George Stewart (1930-1940) and Wallace Conkling (1941-1953).  Conkling’s successor, Gerald Burrill (1954-1971), who died only recently aged almost 100, was rather “liberalish” in his views, both as regards theology and matters such as divorce and remarirage.  A friend of mine, now a retired Catholic priest, but between 1954 and 1978 a Lutheran minister, went to see Bishop Burrill around 1955 about becoming an Episcopalian, but Burrill rapidly lost patience with my friend’s theological questions, replying to one of them with the words “we don’t think about the Creed, we just say it.”  James Montgomery (1971-1987) was a homosexual (as he himself admitted in retirement) who just couldn’t bring himself to ordain women, even though he didn’t oppose WO, but had one of his suffragan bishops “do it” and during his episcopate Chicago became a haven for antinomian (let the reader understand!) clergy of all sorts and all genders.  Frank Griswold (1987-1998), a modernist with a slightly “Catholic aroma” came next, and then William Persell (1998-present), a modernist also, but as far as I can see a colorless one without any “theological aroma.”  It is a sad story, but so far as I can see either Tracy Lind or Margaret Rose seem to be the logical, and perhaps inevitable, next step on the downward staircase.  I hope that Cardinal George and his Orthodox counterparts will have discriminatingly “open arms.”

Yeah great isn’t it Karen?
A lot goes on that’s bad on the net and blogs too but I’d take it over ignorance any day.

You see, ECUSA won’t—can’t—stop plunging forward. It’s a stagecoach with some runaway horses and a clear field ahead. Moderate conservatives—especially the naturally “stabilizing” and institutional bishops—have much revisionist “shock and awe” ahead for them over the next, oh, say five years.

Sarah’s words seem more prophetic with this release, sadly we’re not having to wait long for her words to begin to come to pass.

The diocese of Chicago’s statistics found here. Basically a 10% drop in ASA (more if you adjust for the “Christmas effect” in 2005) in since 2001. The good news about this is that less people will fall under the future lesbi-druid bishopress’ influence!

Well—rw… as we say in the West…you’re either for’em or agin’ em.
Intercessor

I must say, the attendance / membership chart for Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland is pretty impressive since Lind’s arrival in 2000.
http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_8282007125501PM.pdf

and the chart of her previous parish (St. Paul’s Paterson, NJ, diocese of Newark) is also interesting.  Took quite a nosedive when she left.
http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_828200710151PM.pdf

I’m sure that will help the cause of those who are promoting her election.

POSTSCRIPT

There used to be a REC diocese seated in Chicago, a diocese that had a certain reputation for “high-church-ism” because it alone retained the use of surplices for its clergy and the “episcopal habit” for its bishop, when these had been given up everywhere else for the black “Geneva gown,” until it, too, was forced to give them up in the 1920s— but a glance at the entry for the REC in the 2000 *Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches* seems to indicate that that diocese no longer exists.

Thanks Susan+ for not mincing words.

I agree…Father Susan(?) please go in peace your way and my wife and children will go down the 2,000 year old way.
My prayers to you.
Intercessor

Ok, other things to do, so this will be my last comment for awhile, but one last interesting link on Lind+

Her annual report on the mission of Trinity Cathedral from Jan 28, 2007.  A busy and vibrant place with lots of interesting outreach and activities.  But not a lot that’s obviously or explicitly Christian….

http://www.trinitycleveland.org/sermons/07-01-28sermon.html

I wonder why the Rev. Dr. Ann Holmes Redding was excluded from such a distinguished list.

What is it about the word, “Holiness” that we just don’t seem to understand?

Heb. 12:14, “Pursue peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord!”:  That’s what the Holy Spirit says- not some Vast Bible-Thumping Conspiracy.  No reason to be embarrassed about affirming what God has already told us, but oh, boy, the embarrassment if we don’t!
Robert

Thanks William Tighe for the quote from Bp Burrill: “We don’t think about the Creed, we just say it.” Truly, priceless. Someone needs to send that to VGR that way he could avoid all the disturbing consternation.

Thanks, Dr. Tighe, for the succinct and damning history of this diocese.
With upcoming events in mind, we shall soon see whether TEC will whirl apart as if it were a broken centrifuge, or whirl downward and inward as if someone had just pulle the flush handle.

we experienced another year of growing in our mission to proclaim in word and action God’s justice, love and mercy to all creation.

Does anybody proclaim salvation and redemption anymore?

A new wrinkle to add to the discussion here.  One of our commenters at T19 has done the math re: the election date and consecration date:

Denise writes:

Imagine that!  Elected on November 10 and consecrated on February 2.  Let’s see, that is not even 90 days.  Hmmmmm…...

http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/5382/#99782

“Hmmmm” indeed!

Yes they are using the really short form this time. They wave it out a window and hearing no objections go ahead with the consecration.

Bravo Rocks!
Intercessor

No he is forgiving him the sins that those who blocked the door have put upon him, the sins of how he has been excluded because he is different for nothing he himself could control.

I’m sorry, but what rot. And I would have more reason to know than the author of this.

Imagine that!  Elected on November 10 and consecrated on February 2.  Let’s see, that is not even 90 days.  Hmmmmm…...

It would be shorter but the caterer is booked for the Holidays.
Intercessor

RE: “Yes they are using the really short form this time. They wave it out a window and hearing no objections go ahead with the consecration.”

Hee, hee, hee.

; > )

Okay, for differing reasons, I agree with Susan Russell.  I’m certainly all for dioceses “living into” their theology with clarity and honesty and, especially, lots of publicity!  ; > )

However, before any of us get all excited, let’s recall that I believe on at least three occasions, dioceses have done the old “poke in the eye” and this-proves-we-can-do-whatever-we-like-so-there signal by nominating non-celibate homosexuals . . . and then these candidates have been resoundingly defeated at the actual election.

So . . . we’ll see what happens.  But my prediction—as has been my prediction for the other elections—is that it won’t happen.

They don’t have the guts.  The only have the guts to do the old fake-paw-wave . . . but not the actual election.

Maybe not, Sarah, but don’t be too sure.  The environment has changed, what with Lambeth being revealed for the sham Rowan Williams would have it be, and that happening post-Camp Allen to boot.  Since March, ECUSA’s learned its middle finger still works, and I think it rather likes using it.

May I suggest that everyone wipe the foam off their mouths, and take a breath.  First, amid all the condemnation of what TEC is or is not willing to do, or what TEC’s position is or is not, this is one diocese that has simply nominated 5 candidates.  NO ONE has yet been elected to any position.  While Chicago is a progressive diocese, no one on this list or elsewhere can confidently predict whom will be elected.  Just as this list should not be condemned as an entity simply because of some of the wack-job opinions that are stated, the Diocese of Chicago, and certainly TEC, should be not condemned for actions that neither has yet taken.  This is nothing more than witch-hunting.

It is a real slap in the face to nominate Tracey Lind—but I suspect that Margaret Rose’s “theology” would be the most appalling of the five (and none of them approach orthodoxy).

Given Margaret Rose’s liturgies, Postulant, “witch hunting” may have been a poor choice of words.

Postulant, you are right. TEC’s condemnation stands on the basis of actions she has already taken. These are just icing.

Well I will confidently make a prediction. I think it will go down similar to California, you even have a candidate from there in Gould. In the end they will settle on Lee around the 3rd or 4th ballot.

I know that putting Ms Lind on the list may have just been “sending a message”  by the DOC, but just the fact that they feel compelled to SEND THAT PARTIUCLAR message should be disturbing enough for everyone. 

Or don’t we judge actions instead of people nowadays?

Just checking…mrb

Rocks,

I think your prediction is correct, but I also think it is only a matter of time before VGR happens again.

Having read Karen’s links for Margaret Rose - if it’s a choice between her and Lind, I hope they take Lind.

Matt+,
  I think you are right too but it won’t be in a diocese with a big city. There is just too much money in play and politics to deal with that aggravation in a big city.
I know this is OT but as long as you are here I would love to see a post from you on your take of Mark 2:1-12. IMO it could be exactly the opposite of what Safford suggests. It’s true we don’t know what the man sins were are even if he wanted to be there. It could of been an intercession by his family or friends. It could be said we are required to bring sinners to Jesus even if they are willing to live with their sins as they are or don’t see them as wrong.
Have you ever done a sermon on Mark 2?

I think your prediction is correct, but I also think it is only a matter of time before VGR happens again.

Depends if TEC is disciplined shortly after 9/30/07 by the ABC and the Primates.

This action by DioChicago puzzles me.  Just like when TEC initiated lawsuits against departing parishes in DioVA just before Tanzania.

Does TEC have inside information that there will be NO repercussions from the ABC on noncompliance?  Is that why they’re so brazen?  This is a TEC middle-finger poke to the forehead, followed by a middle-finger poke to the nose, flattening it outward.  What kind of biblical respect is that to the ABC and the primates?

There needs to be corporate discipline to match the blatant, utterly defiant actions of TEC.  It needs to be administered firmly, lovingly, timely, and sternly.

If not, the Anglican Communion cannot and probably should not hold.

If they had to go with a lesbian, I wish it had been Bonnie “<s>It’s Greg Griffith, Not an Apple Brown Betty</s> It’s a River, Not a Pie” Perry.  Anything to work in that <s>really tired</s> idea in again.

A little while back, I was going to run a web site to promote my Bible book.  The guy who owned the domain thought about working with me on a really good cooperative project.  He was an evangelical Christian.  I explained up front, for purposes of full disclosure, that I was a Unitarian and former officer in Integrity, and explained what Integrity was, and that my theology was liberal bordering on agnostic.  He never replied, but that was fine.  I was happy in the knowledge that (a) I hadn’t gotten into a project with him under false pretenses, and (b) each of us knew where the other stood.

If the Episcopal Church is not the kind of denomination that will consecrate another openly lesbian or gay bishop, it needs to indicate as much.  If it is that kind of denomination, it needs to indicate as much.  Getting thrown out of the Anglican Communion should be preferable, for all concerned, to deception and bad-faith equivocation.  EVERYBODY should be “standing firm” here.  No misunderstandings.  No weasel words.  Just a clear statement of what we believe and why, and a willingness to suffer consequences for it if necessary.  That is the most essential component to Christian evangelism.

Tom Head,
If TEC did what you said then there would be no tension to live into.
It’s all about the tension ya know?

Tom Head, you’re my favorite reappraiser.  From your lips to ABC Williams’ ears.

Perhaps folks are reading this the wrong way. This may in fact give another diocese (didn’t this also happen in Newark?) a chance to NOT select a homosexual, and use that as evidence that in face they are showing restraint for a season, as KJS suggested.  Only if there are homosexual candidates can they be turned down.  That’s not to say this doesn’t also accustom folks to such people being on the slate, or help them as they march toward the inevitability of its being commonplace, etc.  But at this moment , it might be that it’s an opportunity to show they are being oh-so-restrained.

Rocks, that’s clever.  :o) 

I am thinking of something that my friend and hero Shannan Reaze said at an event a few months ago.  Someone had remarked that liberals should not “tie [themselves] to trees” over unpopular issues like abortion and gay rights.  She firmly disagreed: Tying ourselves to trees is what activists do.  Either you stand for something or you don’t.

This doesn’t mean that we can’t make common cause with people we disagree with—and I was more than willing to run that Bible site alongside the evangelical Christian, by the way, and even remarked that there could be benefits to having such different perspectives on the site.  But in the case of the Episcopal Church, we are not just talking about a cooperative venture.  We are talking about establishing a clear church policy, one way or the other, on lesbian and gay members.  If the people at 815 have a gay-positive theology except when it costs them money, or popularity, or prestige, or property, then they don’t really have a gay-positive theology; they just happen to be in a gay-positive mood.

Hey Tom—

If the people at 815 have a gay-positive theology except when it costs them money, or popularity, or prestige, or property, then they don’t really have a gay-positive theology; they just happen to be in a gay-positive mood.

What if they have a pro-gay-practice theology BECAUSE they think it will garner them all those things you mentioned in the end?  After all—secular culture has been driving in that direction for quite some time.  Having a pro-gay-practice theology would keep them in step with the world and they would not have to risk being hated by the world.

What if it really isn’t out of empathy when it comes from those who are not gay themselves?  What if it really has to do with the coin of this world?

Peace today,
Pat

The Rev. Tracey Lind is a product of Bishop Spong and the Diocese of Newark.  Elizabeth Kaeton is a close friend of hers.

Tom,
I thought we did indicate our policy back in ‘98. What was unclear? To whom was it unclear? So, the issue here is not to establish a policy but to change the policy. But then again, I thought Jesus Himself had extablished the policy when He said, “God created them male and female. And for this reason a man shall leave his house….” Read it again and see if you can find “the reason” Jesus mentions when He says ” ...for THIS reason…”. Seems clear to me but maybe I’m over simplifying. (I don’t really think I am)

The Diocese of Chicago previously elected Frank Griswold as Bishop.  Their standards have fallen dramatically since.

Antique writes:“1. Integrity IS GC and all that gathering and meeting and stuff every three years is pure pagentry.” Yep. Sure looks that way. Uh-what say YE, ABC Rowan?

Regarding statistics for Trinity Cathedral:
There are a couple of indicators that suggest when the parochial report numbers for a church may not be accurate.  One is when the cleric’s previous church’s sunday attendance takes a nosedive immediately after the cleric leaves.  A common scenario is that the outgoing cleric pumped up the numbers; the successor (often an interim) desires to get things back on the level.

Another indicator of possible inflated numbers in parochial report numbers is when attendance goes up dramatically but pledges do not.  Common scenarios are that weekday morning and night eucharists are included in the weekend total; homeless folk who do not actually come to church but who are “around” are counted; additional services are added (but there’s really not any NEW people coming): hence the pledges don’t increase in proportion with the increased attendance figures.

Just food for thought. Anybody in the Cleveland area who can tell us if these are good numbers?

To ask the age-old zen question… What’s the sound of one bird being flipped toward Lambeth, Windsor, and the Global South?
Peace,
Andy

Should anyone be surprised with events in Chicago?  I think not especially after the Gene Robinson episode.  TEC is bent upon ignoring the will of a lot of their congregations, the Bible, etc.  I have a sad tale about arrogance, property grabbing and general disregard to our Christian beliefs and the rights of congregations.  I won’t reveal the town or state but will say it’s in New England.

TEC in this town was given a home for their Rector and family.  The Rector and his wife are now divorced and having grown children
approached his flock with a proposal that they give him a housing allowance and move to smaller quarters.  The flock agreed, but one very major problem.  Seems the local Episcopal Diocese says they own the house and the local church, who obtained the house and deed in the first place, is out of luck.  There was talk of renting the house out, but the Diocese would probably take those proceeds as well.  End result is that some members will probably take a walk and the congregation will be diminished.  Why do I relate this?

No matter what TEC continues to do in legal process even if they win the battle and keep the churches whose congregations have left TEC, they have shells; nothing more.  A parish is people, clergy and is involved in the local community.  Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the temple and this fact is conveniently ignored by a land and power hungry leadership of TEC.

My prayers go to the AOC and the worldwide Anglican Community to stop considering the TEC in communion with the rest of the Anglican world.  It’s not about sexual orientation, the gender of clergy et al.  It’s about the total throwing out of 2000 plus years of Christian belief and tradition to concentrate on materialism and control.  Anyone who dares disagree with TEC leadership is thought to be evil, bigoted or even worse.  Those who are responsible for this will be judged not by me or you, but by God.  I can’t help but thing he’ll be less than pleased.  I know I’m not.

What’s the sound of one bird being flipped toward Lambeth, Windsor, and the Global South?

Answer:  Lots of uncontained snickers, followed by giggles, capped off with hysterical, belly-slapping hyena laughter from the liberal revisionists.

Return questions:  (1)  What’s the sound of biblical discipline that will be forthcoming from the see of Canterbury?  (2)  What’s the sound of biblical discipline that will be forthcoming from the GS primates?  (3)  Are sounds #1 and #2 the same sounds?

The most interesting and useful outcome of this episcopal election would be the election of Lind. Then the HoB would have to grant or withhold its assent to her election. After this, there would be no more fudge, no having it both ways. It would be clear whether TEC’s bishops intended to comply with Windsor and DeS in order to remain in the communion or to go their own way. Moreover, since the assents would be a matter of public record, it would also be clear which of TEC’s bishops and dioceses might form the nucleus of the post-TEC Anglican-Communion province in the U.S.

I agree with those who have predicted that Lind will not be elected. The Revisionists will try to postpone this moment of truth until after Lambeth.

This is no surprise.  The handwriting has been on the wall since +++Griswold was here. That is why our family has been on the outside looking in for the last 3 1/2 years.

As a prediction, I stand with Sarah 90%—I don’t think that they will do it.  But having said that, 10% of me thinks that if anyone will do it, Chicago can—+++Griswold and ++Persell have certainly laid the groundwork for that to happen here.  I have personally seen the signs.

Susan

Tom Head remarked:

If the people at 815 have a gay-positive theology except when it costs them money, or popularity, or prestige, or property, then they don’t really have a gay-positive theology; they just happen to be in a gay-positive mood.

This is mere posturing as the victim, argument by soliciting pity. 815 and all its numerous dioceses who’ve now made themselves hostage to the ‘new thing’ will not abandon you. As you are certain of 815, so I am equally certain that there’s nothing left here. This bishop nominee in Chicago doesn’t provide new clarity as to TEC’s direction, rather it confirms previously realized certainties that many here simply won’t recognize. We might fight to keep the real estate of those parishes that remain orthodox (I find that the most convenient word), but TEC and all the other mainline Protestant denominations are simply lost. I forget Bp Duncan’s exact words, but it’s that sort of thing. And that’s why it’s simply absurd to make common cause with any of the institutionalists, who are numerous among the Windsor bishops. I no longer lament the miserable fate of this failed Church.

Out of curiosity, how soon do you think this news reaches the ABC?  What if he doesn’t check the computer blogs or check his e-mail.  Say his motto was “No news is good news.”  How would you like to be the staffer to inform +++Rowan that an open lesbian has been nominated for bishop at DioChicago?  What do you think the expression is on his face as he’s trying to enjoy his summer sabbatical to hear this news?

One hopes the Archbishop of York will read Margaret Rose’s stuff next time he waxes poetic on the “orthodoxy” of TEC.

I’m with Summersnow on the 90% this won’t happen prediction, having left the DoC at about the same time.  The big surprise to me was that the partnered lesbian to whom they refer wasn’t Bonnie Perry.  I think that had she been nominated, there would be a higher likelihood of the election of a partnered lesbian actually happening here.
I also concur that Tracey Lind would be better than Margaret Rose.  Glad to be out of it and in a nice, theologically sound AMiA parish - of which there are three within a 20 minute drive.

Things are getting hotter and hotter in the kitchen as the TEC frog pots boil.

Suggested (should be required) reading for HOB meeting as Sept 30, the Day of Reckoning approaches:

I Kings 18:21, Numbers 33:55,56, Malachi 1:6-4:6.  Selah.

Chilling. Let it be according to Thy Word. Amen.

Ann—I am feeling a small bit of envy, 3 AMIA parishes?  You are most fortunate.  We get to Resurrection, West Chicago
(http://www.resurrection.org/) very occasionally, but it is an hour’s drive for us.  And they will be leaving TEC soon, and happily so.  Here in the NW ‘burbs there is no Anglican parish for us to turn to, so we have thrown our lot in with other Evangelicals.  But our hearts are not totally out of Anglicanism—and so we keep up with things here at SF and T1:9.

Blessings to you and your family.

Susan

Karen B.:  Thanks for the links.  Recently had a Bible study series on various Renewals, Revivals and Reforms throughout history.  Will be giving the CT article to the leader.  We followed the rise and falls of Baal, etc. in the OT as part of it.  Not so OT, is it?

Susan,
We were really blessed with choices.  Our AMiA parish was launched by a group of folks from our old TEC church when we split, so it was an easy decision for us to go there.  There is a fellowship starting up on the north side of the city, but that may not be any closer for you.  Some of the parishioners we left with from our TEC church ended up going LCMS and some to local Bible churches.  They report missing the liturgy, though, so you’re not alone.  As we all learned, sound theology is the most important thing.

I’ll be interested to see what, if any, fall out there will be in our area from this.  My impression is that the conservatives who are left are largely in the suburbs rather than the city, but apart from a couple of churches out here in the western suburbs that are “more” conservative, I don’t know that much if anything would change with the election of Tracey Lind, were that to happen.  It might, however, just be the last nail in the coffin after Sept. 30 fall out (were there to be any), for those who have stayed up to this point.

Yes, Lind probably won’t get elected. But this is still an extended finger to the rest of the Anglican Communion. Does show the TEC hiearchy’s idea of conciliarity.

Also, shows another major flaw in the DeS communique. What if the HoB vote for approval of the DeS communique by a 51 to 49 margin with Chicago, Washington, Olympia, etc., dissenting. The dissenting dioceses then do as they please, electing lesbi-druid bishops. The primates should have called for a unanimous vote.

henryleroi wrote:

We might fight to keep the real estate of those parishes that remain orthodox (I find that the most convenient word), but TEC and all the other mainline Protestant denominations are simply lost.

I’m not so sure about the other mainline Protestant denominations. Since TEC reached a tipping point on its pro-gay policies, gay activists from other mainline denominations have been gravitating to TEC. While this propels TEC faster and further into the New Religion, it serves to take pressure off the other mainline denominations.

Of course the mainline denominations will continue to struggle with assaults from our anti-Christian culture, but that is no less true of even the most conservative Evangelical denominations. Since Protestantism was founded on modernist principles, there is really no escaping this - except by escaping Protestantism itself.

rob-roy wrote:

Also, shows another major flaw in the DeS communique. What if the HoB vote for approval of the DeS communique by a 51 to 49 margin with Chicago, Washington, Olympia, etc., dissenting. The dissenting dioceses then do as they please, electing lesbi-druid bishops. The primates should have called for a unanimous vote.

Individual dioceses might elect lesbigay bishops, but that doesn’t mean the other dioceses and bishops will necessarily assent to the elections. If dioceses start consecrating bishops without such assents, then they will essentially be withdrawing from TEC.

Got a chance to do some archive hunting for the Rev. Jane Gould who was also a candidate in the Dio. California search process in spring 2006.

See the comment at T19 here:
http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/5382/#100114

“People would walk near us, see the banner…and proudly say, ‘I’m an Episcopalian.’”  Found on http://episcopalwomenscaucus.net/ruach/Summer2004_vol25_1/02March.html

Gee actually it made me ashamed to be an Episcopalian;

Then I saw the link on “A Celebration of the Divine Feminine” , “Divorce Liturgy” and “Stations of the Cross” and that was the last draw; wasn’t there also one on one of the melynks websites of a fertility right at the same time?  Anyway I saw those on Saturday and went to an Anglican Church on Sunday and have never looked back after 56 years..  Thank you ECUSA…I probably wouldn’t have done it for quite a while if it hadn’t been for these two instances.

Fr Jeff Lee was on the short list in the recent bishop election in the Diocese of Olympia. The following is from an interview of the candidates which appeared in the Seattle Times :

The Rev. Jeff Lee, rector of St. Thomas Episcopal Church in Medina, indicated that if elected he would take a firm line with parishes that seek to sever ties with the parent church.

Under Warner, Poulsbo and Oak Harbor congregations have quit the diocese but continued to occupy church buildings.

In Oak Harbor, dissident self-described “Anglicans” and Episcopal loyalists hold worship services in the same building: Anglicans dictate the terms of sharing.

“The church canons are unambiguous,” Lee said. “People can leave the Episcopal Church. Parishes can’t. People cannot take property with them. That is theft!”

He said almost exactly the same thing at the candidates’ walkabout I attended (I’m a diocesan convention delegate). For those not familiar with the situation here in the D of O, the two parishes mentioned in the article are still occupying their buildings under a negotiated agreement between the Diocese and the two parishes.

First, amid all the condemnation of what TEC is or is not willing to do, or what TEC’s position is or is not, this is one diocese that has simply nominated 5 candidates.  NO ONE has yet been elected to any position.

Fortunately Windsor, Dromantine, and Dar require a moratorium on candidates for elections. By accepting this slate of candidates, ECUSA has chosen to walk apart, whatever happens in September. Certainly the Global South will see it that way!

What if the HoB vote for approval of the DeS communique by a 51 to 49 margin with Chicago, Washington, Olympia, etc., dissenting.

Again - it really doesn’t matter what happens now. Are they going to vote to stop lawsuits? No! are they going to vote to allow the orthodox a legally and canonically independent and self-governing “church-within-a-church”, holding all its own property and a share of the endowments, to which any of their parishes can move with all their property,  recognised by all the primates, and able to leave the shell of ECUSA at any time? Well they’ve already said no to that one - and frankly from their perspective I can see why: there is nothing in that deal for ECUSA!

So it really doesn’t matter what the HOB votes to do or not to do.
The only questions are - are the “liberals” - primarly the CoE - so upset with the intransigence of ECUSA refusing accept the compromises they have accepted in their own liberal provinces that they will throw ECUSA out? (the answer is: the liberals are upset, but not that upset).  And the other question is - will the Global South disfellowship the liberal and “moderate” provinces if either the moderates don’t throw ECUSA out, or if it is thrown out, if the moderates and liberals keep still keep their own unilateral relationships with ECUCSA? (I mean ECUSA could be throw out of the communion on monday, and then on tuesday sign covenants with ECUSA, Australia, Mexico, etc etc).  And the answer here is that the Global South will have absolutely nothing to do with any province - including the CoE - that remains in communion or in any sort of relationship with ECUSA past 1 Oct. If the CoE doesn’t dump ECUSA, there will be Nigeria, Kenyan, and Rwandan bishops in England by Christmas and the CoE covenanters, lead by John Stott, and the Anglo-Catholics lead by Ebbsfleet, will break away.
The consistent witness of the Global South has been that ECUSA must really repent - not just Gene Robinson but Keaton, Russell, Lind and every single supporter of the new morality and new religion must be removed from leadership in ECUSA.  Even Windsor says as much! The consistent witness of ECUSA has been that they will not do this.  There is absolutely nothing that the ECUSA HOB can do that will change this situation. Absolutely Nothing.

<blockquote>Fortunately Windsor, Dromantine, and Dar require a moratorium on candidates for elections. By accepting this slate of candidates, ECUSA has chosen to walk apart, whatever happens in September. Certainly the Global South will see it that way!/blockquote>
This is wrong in multiple ways. First, Dar says nothing about nominating candidates - it just requires the bishops collectively to promise that they will not assent to the election of practicing homosexuals as bishops. The bishops have no say in who gets nominated. Second, ECUSA has not “accepted” the slate of candidates - there is no opportunity for anyone outside the diocese to register an opinion one way or another about mere candidates. It is only after one of them is elected that anyone outside the diocese can officially weigh in.

In short, while the nomination is provocative, it does not by itself change anything.

I think James Noble is right on the money.
No matter how anyone attempts to slice this, the Communion as we know it is over.
TEc is not going back. The Global South and other God-honoring believers in other parts of the Communion, including here in the US, are no longer going to put up with this nonsense - come October 1.
With or without Canterbury, there is going to be an Anglican Communion that would have nothing (or at the very most, very little) to do with TEc and other apostate church-playing institutions in North America, Europe, and in some other geographical locations.

In other words, The Communion as we “knew” it is dead. The paths are clearly marked and choices are being made, even as we blog.

One thing, though: There is no need to cry over this because God is working out HIS purposes in ways that are way beyond our finite mind. HE is still in charge and HE knows those who sincerely seek HIM and those who are “playing games” with HIS Word and Sacraments.

By the way, is anyone surprised at this list of Chicago finalists?
I am not. I know this diocese and I know TEc.

“Then the Lord will guide folks along Plan C.  Praise God that all good things come from Him in His time.”
Amen

Kyounge,
The Seattle Times article was very prejudiced against the two Anglican churches.  Every effort was made to accommodate the 8 people at St. Stephen’s who voted against leaving the diocese.  I understand that group is now up to 14 or more, with a maximum attendance of 22, and there are some very wealthy widows involved.  The wealthy widows are hearsay, but I mention it anyway.  The agreement these 8 wanted was reached and then I heard that they backed out and held up the agreement with the diocese for several months. 

I wonder if this group of 8-14 received the church would they allow the much larger Anglican congregation the same benefit of worshipping in the church.  What do you think?

carol wrote:

The Seattle Times article was very prejudiced against the two Anglican churches.

That’s why I pointed out that the two parishes had negotiated to keep the use of their buildings. The article makes it sound like the Anglicans made an armed raid and ran the Episcopalians out of town, and I didn’t want anyone reading in other parts of the country to think that’s what happened. Are you also in Western Washington? If so, you’re only the fourth one on Stand Firm (that I know of).

Hi Kyounge,
Thank you for pointing out the slant of the article.  Yes I am from Western Washington and I have been going to St. Charles in Poulsbo since October 2004.  The final straw for me was the Druid Episcopal Priests and their various pagan rites and the Episcopal shield and the proud members at the reproductive rights rally (abortion) in DC in spring of 2004.  I found the rally
picture as I was searching for information on the pagan rites.  When I saw the proud marchers behind the Episcopal Shield that did it…that shield said I supported abortion and I don’t.  I told my husband that I could no longer go to TEC and the next day I was at St. Paul’s in Port Gamble, which was part of St. Charles.  We have since pulled out of Port Gamble as the church is owned by the same development company that owns the historical town of Port Gamble.  They were using it for a wedding chapel so we decided to merge the two churches and services.  I went back to TEC for two services after that; one was my husband’s last Sunday when he was honored for his 13 years as treasurer. I am very happy at St. Charles and have learned more in my 3 years there than I did in my 56 years in ECUSA. 

“Margaret Rose is the real story here ... I encourage anybody who hasn’t yet had lunch to check out Karen’s links.”

Agreed!

A CORRECTION

I wish to correct the statement that I made in my comment of 8-28-08 10:48 am in regard to the ex-Lutheran pastor nor Catholic priest friend off mine who visited Bishop Burrill of Chicago in 1955 with a view to becoming an Episcopalian.  As the friend in question e-mailed me this morning:

“He didn’t say anything about the Creed.  He said ‘We don’t have any doctrine’.”