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Dr. Stephen Noll: Apostolic Discipline

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 • 8:19 pm


Apostolic Discipline: A Reply to Philip Wainwright
By the Rev. Prof. Stephen Noll
(via email)

The Rev. Philip Wainwright has recently posted an article on “Biblical Reasons for Staying” in The Episcopal Church (http://parishtoolbox.org/index.php/tbx/entry/40). As a fellow priest of the Diocese of Pittsburgh who has written on the issue of church discipline, particularly in our current Anglican crisis (see various essays at www.stephenswitness.com), I shall venture a brief reply.

First of all, let me appreciate the fact that Philip Wainwright is seeking God’s will from Scripture. That puts us on a common footing and, frankly, out of step with many of the leaders of the Episcopal Church today. Secondly, I am going to assume, although he does not say so directly, that Wainwright agrees with Lambeth Resolution 1.10 that “homosexual practice is contrary to Scripture” and that he agrees with Paul that those who persist in sexual immorality will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9; Galatians 5:21; Ephesians 5:5).

So what is at issue is not a question of doctrine or morals but of discipline, what to do when a fellow Christian or a Christian leader openly violates the clear teaching of Scripture. Philip’s reply is, in essence, “do nothing that would cause an overt break in fellowship or church order.”

Let me agree with him that the apostolic church had a liberal attitude toward those who fall into error. It hardly exercised what one would call an “off with his head” mentality. Many of Wainwright’s examples from the New Testament illustrate this pastoral liberality. However, this is not the whole story. The apostles, following Jesus’ teaching, did have two principles with which they guided the church. The first had to do with patience in timing. Jesus puts it this way:

“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” (Matthew 18:15-17)

Jesus urges his disciples to be deliberate in approaching an erring brother, to avoid shaming him in public, if possible, and to make sure that any final judgement was shared by the wider community. So yes, the Christian is to be careful and patient in disciplining a brother, but there is a final word of exclusion: treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector, which in the Jewish context means, shun him. Wainwright asserts without evidence that these words do not suggest separation from the church and its assembly and sacraments. I would argue, on the contrary, that given the specific reference of verse 17 to “tell it to the church,” it is precisely excommunication which Jesus has in mind.

The apparent contradiction between Jesus’ command with his own practice of dining with publicans and sinners is resolved when one understands the second principle of church discipline, which has to do with levels of accountability. This principle is expressed succinctly by Paul to the Corinthians in the case of the man who was found sleeping with his mother-in-law.

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.” (1 Corinthians 5: 9-13)

Paul distinguishes several levels of accountability. There are the pagans, those who make no claim to be Christians. He says, “who am I to judge them? leave it to God.” The proper attitude to such people is to witness to them that they might come into the light. Then there are those who call themselves Christians but who clearly violate God’s holy will. Toward those who sin, Paul implies there is a necessity of judgement, and toward those who persist in their sin there is a necessity of exclusion. To be sure, this exclusion is not eternal, and it is restorative in intention: Paul hopes that through the pain of excommunication (“destruction of the flesh”) the man at Corinth may repent and be saved. (Wainwright’s speculation that this man was received back without repentance, having married his mother-in-law, is quite a stretch.)

These two Scripture texts have been expounded at length and convincingly in an essay by Robert Gagnon of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary titled “Church Policy As Regards Homosexual Practice: Membership and Ordained Ministry” (see www.robgagnon.com). Dr. Gagnon concludes that these texts justify exclusion of openly practicing homosexuals. In my opinion, there is no difference between an openly practicing homosexual and a church leader or a church body openly advocating the practice (see Matthew 5:19).

Quite possibly, the brother in Matthew 18 and the man 1 Corinthians 5 were simply lay Christians in the church. How much less then does Paul tolerate impenitent false teachers? (Again, I find hard to swallow Wainwright’s identification of Anglican bishops like Jack Spong as “babes in Christ” who need milk, not the rod.) Once again, Paul does not rush to judgment and assumes that godly leaders like Peter can be temporarily led astray and brought back with a firm rebuke. But this is not his attitude to the Judaizing teachers in Galatia, about whom he says: “Cast out the slave woman!” and “I wish they would emasculate themselves!” (Galatians 4:30; 5:12). Indeed, to say “let them be anathema” (Galatians 1:8-9) means, let them be delivered to divine wrath for destruction (anathema being the LXX translation of the Hebrew herem or sacred destruction). In Romans 9:3 it refers to being separated from Christ. In the Pastoral Epistles, which some attribute to the sub-apostolic period, one can find a similar “intolerant” attitude toward false teachers like Hymenaeus and Alexander, of whom Paul says “I have handed them over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme” (1 Timothy 1:20).

St. John’s attitude toward false teachers is no different from St. Paul’s. In a recent private letter, Rodney Whitacre of Trinity School for Ministry notes an overarching principle of discipline:

First John is written so that the folks John addresses will remain in fellowship with God, with the truth, and with John himself as he is in fellowship with God (1 John 1.3). The antichrists were claiming to be Christians, but John says they have departed from the teachings of Christ (i.e., about Christ and His teachings about the Father) and thus have departed from God and the disciples should not have fellowship with them. I think this is the point of 2 John 9. The “progressives” have progressed right out of the faith. Now, I think when these teachings first arose in the community John remained in fellowship with the community members who were embracing the ideas as he sought to correct their error, but when they became clear in their error and settled in it, the fellowship was broken. At least this seems to be the way it worked for Paul, and I haven’t seen anything in John to suggest this was not the basic pattern in his communities as well. In both cases the union with Christ is what determines the fellowship on the ground.

The principle then would seem to be that there is a time for discussion and continued fellowship as new ideas are sorted out. But if someone comes up with a new idea that undercuts the foundation of the gospel, and they persist in this view and reject the apostolic teaching against their view, then there is separation. This is Paul’s way of dealing with the opponents behind Galatians - he argues with the Galatians who are tempted, but he anathematizes the teachers who have embraced this false teaching and are promoting it. So also John with the antichrists—they are worshipping false gods (1 John 5.21), they have sinned the sin unto death, apostasy (1 John 5.16-17).

Now, how these principles worked out institutionally in the first century is not entirely clear, and our institutional structures are certainly more developed. But the principles remain.

Philip Wainwright claims that when the apostles rebuked false teachers, they did so with no sanctions of any sort. This claim, repeated throughout his essay, is an argument from silence. True, we do not know exactly how they carried out the separation from heretics, but that is far cry from assuming that they actually sat on their hands and did nothing other than “jaw, jaw.” It also creates a chasm between the practice of excommunication in the patristic church down to 500 AD, as described by church historian William Tighe of Muhlenberg University:

I honestly can’t think of any examples of “official tolerance” either of heresy (once it was taken and acknowledged to be such, which did not usually happen clearly or quickly) of what the Church regarded as “ungodly behaviour;” and of course there never was any tolerance of “apostasy” (which was then the public and clear repudiation of Christian Faith). Of course, none of us really can say what sort of tolerance individual bishops might have given to individuals who exhibited patterns of ungodly behaviour that we might consider today to be “addictive.” I am thinking of those 4th century canons which laid down long periods of exclusion from communion of those who indulged in sexual sins, whether fornication, adultery or unnatural vice (a.k.a. homosexual sodomy), but which seem to imply that those who had become accustomed (habituated) to loose living before becoming Christians and who “fell” from time to time might be accorded some degree of lenience considering their past history. It seems to me that however lenient a bishop (the usual source of advice and admonition with regard to sins and behaviours that were not of public knowledge) might be, once the matter became public or once “sinners” started to defend their actions, or “errorists” their errors, then all lenience ceased immediately, and condemnation/exclusion followed forthwith (although restoration upon repentance, public confession of fault and public absolution, followed by a period of penitential exclusion from the Eucharist, was always possible). The thing is, that bishops par excellence, but also presbyters and even deacons, had a very strong sense that their offices dealt with “stewardship of the mysteries” (sacraments especially) and that, as stewards, they would one day have to render a “strict account” to their Master of how they had dealt in affairs that belonged to him, not to them. (Posted on Stand Firm in Faith blog 8/20/07 http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/5168.)

Finally – and I must say I find this strange coming from a former editor of the Episcopal Evangelical Journal – Philip Wainwright appears to undermine the legitimacy of the Protestant Reformers. Indeed he calls the Anglican Reformers’ appeal to Scripture wrong, because it does not accord with his reading. Fair enough if his exegesis is correct, but if so, it is hard not to conclude that those separated from Rome were schismatics and that their offspring should return to Mother Church posthaste.

In the present Anglican Communion crisis, Philip Wainwright is stating a case like that made by the writers of the Anglican Communion Institute (see www.anglicaninstitute.org). The ACI appears to include proponents of two views, one of which (Philip Turner) urges extended patience until the Windsor process has worked its way to the end, either after September 30 or after Lambeth 08. The other view (Ephraim Radner, if I understand him correctly) holds that in no circumstance is separation warranted. Wainwright seems to be in this camp. In the past, I have proposed the “Baal test” of loyalty: should one continue in a church which had substituted the name of Baal for that of Christ? I do not see from Philip Wainwright’s logic how he can extricate himself (and his flock) from the wildest deviations from the Christian faith and practice. And surely such deviations will come as the Episcopal Church continues on its pell-mell rush off the cliff. He ends with a counsel of quietism, waiting for God to act, presumably as He did with Ananias and Sapphira, or perhaps in the Last Judgment. Such quietism does not seem to have been the apostles’ practice, however strongly they looked for Christ’s Return.

Finally, let me add this common-sense observation, earned in the course of raising five children: warnings in the absence of sanctions are self-defeating and self-denying. If I look my child in the eye and say “Don’t do that!” and the child looks me back in the eye and proceeds to do that very thing, and I take no action, then I have failed to correct his behavior and further I have denied my own moral standing and in effect said, “I didn’t really mean it.” If the Lambeth Conference of bishops says to its members, “this practice is contrary to Scripture and cannot be advised,” and one member church goes right ahead and institutes that practice, then for the Communion to do nothing is to say “we didn’t really mean what we said.” And for many Anglicans, September 30 is that moment when either the Communion through its Instruments will discipline the Episcopal Church – or blink.

In conclusion, I find Wainwright’s position unsupported by Scripture, by the tradition of the early Church and the Reformation, and finally by common sense.

4 September 2007

 


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Comments:

Well put, Dr Noll.

[1] Posted by Todd Granger/Confessing Reader on 09-04-2007 at 07:48 PM • top

This is very well done and I agree 100%.  After September 30 has come and gone, assuming no repentance from TECUSA, I feel strongly that we remaining orthodox must make a clean break, reorganize as we will, leave the revisionists behind, quit fussing about them, and get on with spreading the Gospel.  And I would not worry about whether or not we are tied in with Canterbury; I know that we will be in communion with millions of other brothers and sisters in the Lord all over our “terrestrial ball.”

[2] Posted by physician without health on 09-04-2007 at 08:15 PM • top

I would add Jude to your examples, Dr. Noll. The writer of Jude—a Jewish-born, synagogue-raised Christian—attacks new church members who practice a libertine lifestyle and defend that lifestyle, resisting instruction. Although there is no mention of them actually teaching, their intransigence itself makes them dangerous to others in the fellowship, some of whom have been persuaded wrongly. Jude’s sanction for the hard core, “show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh,” certainly means separation from their lifestyle. In addition, Jude’s horror at finding these libertines admitted to the agape meal certainly speaks to his opinion that they should not be admitted to what today we call the Eucharist.

While Jude was a brother of Jesus rather than a named apostle, he was probably exercising apostolic function over a church he had a hand planting in his missionary journeys.

Separation from intransigent heretics is an apostolic principle.

from the Briar Patch,

[3] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 09-04-2007 at 08:43 PM • top

Dr. Noll,
I totally agree with everything you have said.  And you can probably debate with Wainwright if he truly is a believer in the Holy Word.
However, in dealing with the current decision-makers at TEC, one is comparing apples with oranges, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, speaking a different language, etc.
Those at TEC do not believe that the practice of homosexuality is a sin and many do not believe in sin at all.  Additionally, they are not believers of Scripture.  Rather, it’s just another good book.  They have become all form and no substance-just another extension of a local civic club or junior league.  It’s all about social justice.
It gets back to the two beliefs in one church idea.  Or as Paul Newman said in Cool Hand Luke, “what we have here is failure to communicate”.  God help us all.

[4] Posted by carpprop on 09-04-2007 at 09:07 PM • top

Of course Dr. Noll is 100% correct.  Now the next question is what is to be done to those who refuse to discipline those who are heretics.  Does this cause them to be partakers of the heretic’s sin?  And if we refuse to separate from heretics or organizations that harbor heretics…..?

[5] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 09-04-2007 at 09:47 PM • top

From Ephraim Radner’s reply to Stephen Noll at http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/assay54.html :

The Baal test sounds reasonable—it is scriptural in part, although we should be careful in analysing just what God called an Elijah to, in relation to the whole people of Israel—but its practical value within a “Church” that is really 3000 churches, is, to say the least, compromised. It is not so much that I don’t think there is such a line, or that each of us should not make conscientious decisions in the face of idolatry, but that I believe it is useless to write the rule book ahead of time, and use it as a test before the fact. Quite simply, I will stay and oppose idolatry in the church as long as I can, and as long as those others who do it continue to do so also in such a way that I am confident of my ability to withstand error with the truth. This, of course, is one of my fears: that all the orthodox leaders of ECUSA will leave, gradually, making it harder and harder to hold on.

Dr. Radner’s contention is spot on that “we should be careful in analyzing just what God called an Elijah to, in relation to the whole people of Israel.”  Obviously, the implication here is that God did not call Elijah to “bail out” on Israel, but to suffer for the truth.  Radner is prepared to do just that, as are a number of the orthodox.  Should they (we) be derided for this stance?  From Dr. Radner’s standpoint, with which I concur, Dr. Noll’s “Baal Test” looks more like a “bail test.”

[6] Posted by Third Mill Catholic on 09-04-2007 at 10:06 PM • top

Being a revisionist at heart smile, I wish to add a penultimate paragraph to my essay before it even gets going:

To those who say, “We must go to Lambeth next year, or else they will repeal or rewrite Resolution 1.10,” I say, by not enforcing the Resolution over the past ten years the Communion will have already repealed Resolution 1.10. To spend three weeks in nice Bible study groups and then go home is in effect to have the form of biblical godliness while denying its power. To which Paul adds: “Keep away from such places” (2 Timothy 3:5 my translation). For many Anglicans, September 30 is that moment when either the Communion through its Instruments will discipline the Episcopal Church – or blink.

[7] Posted by Stephen Noll on 09-04-2007 at 10:10 PM • top

In the past, I have proposed the “Baal test” of loyalty: should one continue in a church which had substituted the name of Baal for that of Christ?

This is a very close variant of a question I asked on a different thread:
“What might be useful is the question of how long the See of Canterbury and the Anglican Communion will tolerate gross heresy and apostasy, and through this extreme tolerance the AC will have implicitly enabled, encouraged, and abetted gross heresy and apostasy in a House of God that’s supposed to be a corporate witness of His Glory?

Dr. Noll, a very nice reply to Rev. Wainwright.  Sound exegesis leading to practical wisdom.  Although not as polished as you, I think a sophomore or junior in a good Bible college could have written basically the same reply.  And that’s no insult to you.  It’s just that dealing with some of the rationalizations of others doesn’t really require high-falutin’ theology.  Just good ‘ol biblical wisdom.

Peace and Blessings.

[8] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-04-2007 at 10:13 PM • top

The level of accountability argument is especially persuasive.  These men - Spong and Robinson - claim to be Christian “brothers”.  Paul is very clear on how they are to be treated: “you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler.”  It would be difficult to be more explicit than that.

[9] Posted by Alice Linsley on 09-04-2007 at 10:17 PM • top

but that I believe it is useless to write the rule book ahead of time

I’m sorry, Dr. Radner, but I seem to have continuing conflicts with what you and others in ACI say. I really don’t want to have those problems and I really do respect your orthodox position. You have responded to this before so I do not want to delve into it tonight.

However, the statement above puzzles me.

I thought we already had a rule book and that it was called the “Holy Bible.”

If you are referencing a covenant, which I understand that you have a part in wrting, then I would assume that it could be put together rather easily using scripture as a basis. Of couse, I’m over simplifying but then, could it be possible that some are making it over-complicated?

Surely, even if we did not have this crisis, it would seem that a covenenant would be a logical and practical way of saying who we are, what we believe and what we believe our mission to be. Once produced and agreed upon, we would have given ourselves an identity recognizable by those within and those without.

In thepast, we (each church, each diocese, each province and the communion as a whole,  had our own idea of who we are, what we believe and what our mission is. 

That informal arrangement was fine so long as everyone understood the criteria. It only became a problem when some decided to deviate and virtually insisted that everyone else come along.

There has been substantial reference to scripture that says we, as Christians, must disassociate ourselves from heretical and apostate people. While there are still many orthodox people still within TEC, the leadership is totally corrupt.

I know from your writings that you are orthodox. I know from things you have said previously, here and elsewhere, that you feel the personal need to stay in TEC and try to affect change from within, rather than disassociating yourself from the heretics and the heresy. You stand on strong conviction and principle and I truly admire that, but for the life of me, through everything I have read, you have not led me to understand “why?”.

It would seem to me that you, as an orthodox clergyman and theologian. would be considerably more effective working with like minds than pounding your head against the wall that is The Epicopal Church.

In any case, my real question was about the “rule book” and that is what I am really seeking an answer for.

God bless and keep you

[10] Posted by Forgiven on 09-04-2007 at 11:51 PM • top

Dr. Noll, thank you for an excellent, and charitable, exposition of your position.  From the commentary of some posters, I do have concerns that for some, the 9/30 line in the sand is becoming a rather deep trench, and we do risk falling into it.  Do let us give the Primates some time to digest whatever fudge comes out of the HoB meeting, and examine whatever process they determine warranted BEFORE we make declarations about what we are going to do, and what path we will follow.  Which is to say, let’s begin our own discernment, rather than having a predetermined set of plans (if HoB does A, I will do P; if HoB does B,C or F, I will do Q…).

That said, I do hope there is some structure in place to preserve the sees of Pittsburgh, Quincy, San Joaquin, and Ft. Worth (and maybe Rhode Island, there are more than a few Worthy Opponents none too happy with Bishop Wolf of late).  It is already obvious that vacating those sees (by TEC) would not be recognized by at least 10 provinces of the Communion (and my guess is that the final number would be more), representing over 50% of the world’s Anglicans.  Still, one would prefer a future in which +Duncan, +Ackerman, et al were exercising their pastoral gifts rather than spending all their time in courtrooms and depositions.

I may suffer correction here shortly from Dr. Radner or Dr. Seitz, but in my reading of their commentaries, my impression is that the main concern of the ACI is to keep the Communion together- to heal it to the point that there is no break between +Cantaur and the Global South.  I think keeping Chane or Robinson, or indeed KJS, in the AC is at best a minor concern.  They do not want to abandon the “people in the pews” of TEC to the teachings of Jack Spong and like minded bishops, and are willing to maintain a dialog with TEC in hopes of preserving and reclaiming those souls.  And something along this line seems to be in the public statements of some of the Windsor Bishops and others.  As I say, if I am incorrect in my thinking, I am sure Dr. Seitz will be along shortly to put me right.
Peace and blessings
TJ

[11] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-05-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

Do let us give the primates some time to digest whatever fudge comes out of the HOB meeting


tjm, it seems to be unfolding that the primates (the ones from the Global South, anyway) have already prejudged the results of the HOB meeting, and their answers were evident in the recent consecrations of four American bishops on African soil.

Let us… examine whatever process they determine warranted BEFORE we make declarations about what we are going to do, and what path we will follow.

The process the GS primates determined warranted has become evident by the fact of the upcoming Council of Common Cause Bishops (CCCB) Sept. 25-28, which will include not only the four new bishops, but also a number of TEC and Continuing Church bishops.

My suspicion is that any public release of information from CCCB before 9/30 will be at least partly in an attempt to influence the ABC and the HOB. After 9/30, we might suspect that the CCCB will release additional information to help us decide “what we are going to do, and what path we will follow.”

In the current polity of the Anglican Communion, the Instrument of Unity called the Primates Meeting lacks the power to schedule its own meetings; they must be called into session by the +ABC. At least 10 of the GS Bishops have found a way around that limitation. You can expect that, under the patronage of no less than 10 primates, the CCCB will be willing to throw some of its weight around.

After that, perhaps the healing process may begin.

from the Briar Patch,

[12] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 09-05-2007 at 02:01 PM • top

In his reply to Philip Wainright Dr. Noll links his argument (both his and Philip Wainright’s) with positions supposedly taken by ACI and in particular Dr. Radner and myself.  It is important to point out, I believe, that in these remarks Dr. Noll strikes out in a different direction than the initial one made in response to Philip Wainwright.  His argument with Philip Wainright has to do with the propriety of church discipline.  When he addresses Dr. Radner and myself he changes course and begins to talk about leaving TEC.  Dr. Noll has merged two quite distinct issues.  He seems to imply that ACI is opposed to church discipline.  I wish to point out that we have consistently argued for church discipline (and at quite a cost).  It is our belief that TEC must be held responsible for its actions both for the sake of its own health and for that of the Anglican Communion.  The discipline of TEC, however, is a very different question than that of leaving TEC.  It is at this point that I am sure there is a real difference between us.  I will not speak for my colleague Dr. Radner.  He is more than capable of doing that himself.  I will speak only for myself.  There may indeed be a justifiable reason to leave TEC, but from my perspective that reason has to do with an inability to survive as a Christian within (which I view as a sign of weakness not strength).  The reason I do not find justifiable is the view that one is called to leave because one is called to go to a church that is more orthodox or more holy.  When things go wrong in the church, the first call is to provide an alternative witness and take the consequences for what one says and does.  Linked to that call is one first to repentance for one’s part (either passive or active) in the process that issues in a disobedient church; and second to a willingness to pass through God’s judgment upon the church of which one is a part and within which one has been nurtured in Christ.

Philip Turner

[13] Posted by Philip Turner on 09-05-2007 at 07:02 PM • top

o “I wish to point out that we have consistently argued for church discipline (and at quite a cost).”

If I may ask, what was the cost incurred by ACI to argue and uphold Scripture’s teaching which mandates church discipline for gross heresy and apostasy?  Do you begrudge and resent Him for having you argue for church discipline at this high cost to you?

o “The reason I do not find justifiable is the view that one is called to leave because one is called to go to a church that is more orthodox or more holy.”

Dr. Turner, please provide a citation or quote from a biblically conservative Anglican leader that supports your assertion.  With all due respect, I don’t believe your assertion.  Honestly, I think it’s a strawman caricature.

o “When things go wrong in the church, the first call is to provide an alternative witness and take the consequences for what one says and does.  Linked to that call is one first to repentance for one’s part (either passive or active) in the process that issues in a disobedient church; and second to a willingness to pass through God’s judgment upon the church of which one is a part and within which one has been nurtured in Christ.”

As to your first step:  Trite and platitudinous.  One should be in a state of continual repentance, moreso if a leader and/or undershepherd.  That is a given and to be assumed.  If it can’t be assumed, then that person is unfit for pastoral office or leadership.  Also, I’m wondering if this implied call for lengthy introspection and personal repentance is a smokescreen and a rationalization to avoid having to do the difficult part of administering tough, loving, biblical discipline to heretics and apostates.

Your second step needs to be revised.  It should read instead as “a willingness to pass through God’s judgment upon the church of which one is a part and within which one has been nurtured in Christ, particularly if there was moral failure and unworthiness in the undershepherd(s) in protecting the sheep from heretics and apostates.  For any priest, bishop, and archbishop who failed to defend and deliver the faith once delivered to the saints because of a lack of moral strength to drive out heretics and apostates through the use of biblical discipline, they indeed should be judged and held fully accountable for the quality of pastoral care they provided.  James 3:1.”

That’s much improved, don’t you agree?

[14] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-05-2007 at 10:21 PM • top

That’s much improved, don’t you agree?

heh, heh, heh…!!!!!

[15] Posted by Forgiven on 09-05-2007 at 10:55 PM • top

TJ—I was alerted to your note. Inter alia, yes, what you write about ACI is correct. Communion and Discipline was written for +Gomez and lays out our view from early days. We have not changed. Dar was a victory, as our friend +NTW reminds us, and we are not willing to accept the views of others that it is dead (too much remains to be determined about that). Dar explicitly extended the work from an earlier CA meeting we were involved in, and spoke of CA principles. The Primatial Vicar and PC scheme were significant agreements, and belonged to a logic we did then and do now believe. Some people speak of a contingency, but when a contingency is an actual desired end, and not a fall back; and when something like a dozen fresh consecrations (Rwanda now has three new ones) are placed as ‘facts on the ground’ it becomes clear that some people want the ‘facts’ without a clear sense of how they can be conjoined to a plan set up at Dar, which specifically called for such things to be contained within a scheme, whose fate was tied to TEC’s declarations at 30 Sept deadline, and their adjudication subsequently. It must be borne in mind, I suspect, that AMiA early on declared that the scheme of the Primates at Dar was not something that operated in their own logic. By declaring Dar ‘dead’ and moving ahead, it makes it difficult to see how +RDW can hear TEC out, let the Standing Committee make a report, let the Primates adjudicate, and then move forward in an orderly way. But ACI will hope and pray for such a way forward all the same.

I have appreciated seeing the alternative sketched out on another thread. It is good to see what people are thinking and also ver sobering to see the significant disagreements emerge. It would be good to have someone respond to Ms Hey, whose opted to speak for the fed con position. Her view was pretty depressing, as she has decided to blame the ABC, bishops, et al. It reminds me a bit of the injunctions against a certain kind of prophecy in the OT (doom; not peace). Clearly the safe course was to be a doom merchant. But Deut saw that such prophetic activity was dangerous because it could take the safest course possible by seeing all the worst options, declaring them inevitable. Then when they didn’t occur, the ‘prophet’ could resonably say, this was because you amended your ways, etc.  (Jonah represents the other side of this dilemma).

But in all cases, God remained sovereign over his own Cause, and used his servants the prophets as He saw fit. It will be a blessing to see how things transpire according to His purpose and not our worries or sage speculations or our planning. I hope everyone is holding all the leaders in their prayers. Grace and peace.

[16] Posted by zebra on 09-06-2007 at 07:45 AM • top

Some people speak of a contingency, but when a contingency is an actual desired end, and not a fall back; and when something like a dozen fresh consecrations (Rwanda now has three new ones) are placed as ‘facts on the ground’ it becomes clear that some people want the ‘facts’ without a clear sense of how they can be conjoined to a plan set up at Dar, which specifically called for such things to be contained within a scheme, whose fate was tied to TEC’s declarations at 30 Sept deadline, and their adjudication subsequently.

Dr. Seitz, based on your statement above, may one safely infer that ACI is opposed to the “dozen fresh consecrations” that have occurred in Africa?  Furthermore, does ACI support or not support ++Gomez’s participation and support in these consecrations?

Also, what evidence can you provide for the assertion “contingency is an actual desired end, and not a fall back”?

[17] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-06-2007 at 08:15 AM • top

Truth Unites,
As a member of a parish under Uganda, I can tell you there are many people for whom the “contengency is an actual desired end.”  I am not among them, but would think they number about 50% of our parishioners.

[18] Posted by evan miller on 09-06-2007 at 08:50 AM • top

Dr Seitz—I agree that calling either Dar or Lambeth “dead” is both premature and unhelpful.  Unless an unambiguous form of Communion legitimacy can be found for orthodox Anglicans in the US, and the Communion status of ECUSA weakened or eliminated by collegial Communion discipline, many hundreds of parishes currently wavering and waiting will find themselves in the same unpleasant position of choosing between long and possibly fruitless legal battles and simply relinquishing stewardship of all their material resources and historic roots.  Not to mention that failure to discipline ECUSA will, as many _Primates realize, severely undermine the status of the Communion as a global expression of Christianity, whether or not it leads to its actual disintegration.

The Dar communique, though, looks to eventual incorporation of the Common Cause partners, probably through FACA, down the road.  And its Pastoral Scheme for oversight of the orthodox could clearly be implemented minus the appointments from 815.  These adjustments are not fundamental, and in retrospect it’s hardly surprising.  Scripture, after all, is packed solid with stories of plans that didn’t work out quite the way their human originators thought they would, and von Clausewitz wrote nearly two centuries ago that no battle plan survives its first contact with the enemy.

So I don’t see the consecrations as unhelpful.  They are not creating any new fact on the ground; the facts were already there—and if they simultaneously provided some additional prospect of relief for desperate American parishes and enraged 815 and its toadies in the Anglican Communion Office, so much the better: an enraged opponent is more likely to make serious mistakes.  And whatever the long-term process envisaged by Dar of reintegrating the missionary parishes back into a unified and ecclesially sensible Anglican province may eventually involve, the challenge will remain the same whether there are a hundred such parishes or a thousand.

This is why I think the whole ComCon / FedCon / BunnyRabbitCon / WhateverCon argument that has taken up so much bandwidth is fruitless.  <ul>
<li> The Anglican Communion is right now “torn at its deepest level.”  It will either mend the tear, probably with a patch of new cloth, or complete the tear into at least two parts, by Lambeth.
<li> Whether the tear is mended or not depends entirely on the actions of the Communion leadership following September 30.  No unilateral action by 815 or any sort of Con will change that fact.
<li> If the Anglican Communion Office succeeds in its primary mission, which is to destroy the Anglican Communion, then orthodox Episcopal clergy will be forced to decide individually what their vows, theology, and external circumstances require them to do.  So will parishes and individual congregants.  I have no intention of “second-guessing” any such decisions, and I hope no one else here does either.
<li> If, as all flavors of Con hope, a “new ecclesial entity” within the Communion emerges after Sept. 30, built (partially?) from the faithful within ECUSA, individual decisions may be somewhat easier and orthodox legal positions strengthened.  This outcome will depend to a large extent on the leadership of the ABC, who has in the past shown himself more insightful than many here give him credit for.  Prayer and lobbying will get us farther, at this point, than dismissive rhetoric (however therapeutically satisfying it may be).
</ul>

So I don’t see any real conflict between ACI’s position and Global South intervention, in spite of the fact that ACI, particularly in its early days, discouraged such intervention.  In any case, Humpty Dumpty will have to be put back together again, and many of the pieces seem now to be coalescing all by themselves.  This is a hopeful development, particularly since there is general agreement among the overseas _Primates involved that such intervention is intended as a (relatively) temporary measure.

In the words of the revered cosmologist Berra, “it ain’t over ‘til it’s over.”

[19] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 09-06-2007 at 09:33 AM • top

Craig writes, “If, as all flavors of Con hope, a “new ecclesial entity” within the Communion emerges after Sept. 30.” This is exactly how I see things developing. The Communion currently has 15 of the 29 provinces out of communion with the TEC. Things will be a little strained for a few years.

Lambeth, in particular, will be problematic. The ABC spent all of his political capital to get the GS to sit down with KJS at DeS. KJS repaid him with “nobody signed nothin.” How foolish and insulting. It is abundantly clear that the ABC would like everybody to come to his tea party. It is also abundantly clear that representatives of the majority of the world’s anglicans will not sit with the perfidious TEC. Thus, Lambeth, especially as evidenced by the lack of RSVPs, will have a lot of empty seats if the ABC persists in the “everybody at the table policy.”

What seems to be playing out is a radical work in progress. But any more “modest proposal” would not result in the divorce of the AC from KJS, Beers, Chane, Naughton, Bruno, et al for years to come if ever. Any drawn out solution would cut the orthodox at the knees. A radical solution is necessary.

I am hopeful that the communion will come out of this much more unified and not a false unity as discussed by Bp Geurnsey.

[20] Posted by robroy on 09-06-2007 at 10:01 AM • top

Intelligently prepared, Greg. We shall have to see if

1. Pastoral Scheme emerges as a ‘whole Primatial Meeting’ endorsed reality it was meant to be;
2. what is called ‘Common Cause’ wishes to be involved in it (here much may turn on primatial leadership);
3. related to (3) whether many interested in a fed con position really do not want the Instruments and accountability to them (some good clarity was emerging yesterday; clearly for many the Anglican Communion as providentially emerging, conciliarly, is not attractive and not desirable);
4. having listened in to various CAPA gatherings, it is not clear how all these various bishops and their sponsors see the long-range; for some what it happening is provisional and emergency; for others, the bishops are suffragans and do not intend to oversee a distinct territory; for others, the idea of a new province is in the forefront. Now all of these things could be brought under one scheme, and all of this could in turn conjoin itself to the Dar proposal, but we shall need to see.

It is important to begin where you did with an insistence that Dar is not dead. But in this, you may find yourself a minority, given what I have observed in these pages.

It will also be intriguing to see whether bloggers who like to see new bishops also want to be able to dictate terms to them, as we see with Minns and Akinola vis-a-vis a Nigerian Bishop’s comments. This is one of the challenges of believing new forms of government are without any of the older problems (a lovely example of New World enthusiasms!)

Grace and peace.

[21] Posted by zebra on 09-06-2007 at 10:07 AM • top

Sorry, Craig, meant ‘Craig’ not ‘Greg.’

[22] Posted by zebra on 09-06-2007 at 10:08 AM • top

We earnestly desire the healing of our beloved Communion but not at the cost of re-writing the Bible to accommodate the latest cultural trend.

From Archbishop Akinola:  http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/5158

[23] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-06-2007 at 10:59 AM • top

Philip Turner says:

Dr. Noll has merged two quite distinct issues.  He seems to imply that ACI is opposed to church discipline.  I wish to point out that we have consistently argued for church discipline (and at quite a cost).  It is our belief that TEC must be held responsible for its actions both for the sake of its own health and for that of the Anglican Communion. The discipline of TEC, however, is a very different question than that of leaving TEC.

Dear Philip:
I think where my critique of Wainwright dovetails with my critique of ACI is that as I see it, apostolic discipline has a final step when met with persistent stubbornness. And that step is separation. It is easier to separate, I suppose, when one is in the majority: one can hold an ecclesiastical trial or declare that the trespasser has “abandoned communion.” But when one is in the minority, or when majority leaders fail to take necessary action, discipline may take the form of separation and the accompanying loss - “let goods and kindred go.”

I think almost all of us are agreed that if the Communion Instruments carry out their proper function such that TEC “walks apart,” then discipline will have been (sadly but necessarily) exercised and we from North America will have to pick the pieces and work together to establish a new ecclesiastical entity. But if the Instruments fail to execute the final step of apostolic discipline, then it will be necessary to separate.

This is where I must confess I do not understand the ACI position, if there is a single one. You say, “The discipline of TEC, however, is a very different question than that of leaving TEC.” But if the Instruments (which represent the majority of Anglicans) fail to discipline TEC, for whatever reason, then in my opinion it is consistent with the Scriptures and the actions of the apostolic, patristic and Reformation churches to do that very thing, to separate from TEC, and to do so corporately wherever possible.

[24] Posted by Stephen Noll on 09-06-2007 at 11:00 AM • top

2 + 2 = 4.  The sun rises in the East. 

Dr. Noll’s response was such an expected rejoinder to Dr. Turner that it has the same impact as the trite statements above.

What would surprise me is if Dr. Turner and perhaps Rev. Wainwright didn’t forsee or expect this response.

[25] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-06-2007 at 11:09 AM • top

As a member of a parish under Uganda, I can tell you there are many people for whom the “contengency is an actual desired end.” I am not among them, but would think they number about 50% of our parishioners.

Dear Evan, if you could make a general summation, what would be the reasons proffered for wanting this actual desired end?

Second, is your rector/priest of the same mind?  How about your bishop?

[26] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-06-2007 at 11:31 AM • top

Evan Miller—thanks.  I’m a bit surprised at the percentage, but we’ve all been well aware that a good percentage desire it.  Just hadn’t thought it was that high.

I had listed a few reasons back last year under “Six Themes” and wonder which ones you would point out as accurate for your allies at your parish—if any—and if you would have any additions:

“1) Some Anglican entities greatly desire that the Anglican Communion not discipline ECUSA at all.

This seems, at first, like a no-brainer. Obviously, Bishop Griswold, Bishop Schori, some 60% to 80% of the House of Bishops, and many many many clergy, along with the approximately 20% of the laity who are Worthy Opponents [remember that the Beloved Moderates just hope everyone will go back to sleep], desire that ECUSA not be disciplined at all.

Furthermore, the hierarchies of power in Wales, Scotland, Canada, South Africa, and Brazil, along with many bishops and clergy in the Church of England . . . greatly desire that ECUSA not be disciplined at all.

That’s sort of an “obvious” statement. Naturally, those fearless church leaders who support the revisal of society’s definitions of sexual morality wish that ECUSA’s current hierarchy would remain an influential and leading figure within the Communion and within the US. Even those bishops who aren’t so keen on redefining sexual morality recognize that it would be “awfully inconvenient” for the Anglican Communion to discipline ECUSA, as it would force them, sadly, to make choices rather than simple peacefully and restfully “be”. ; > )

But also we need to understand that many conservative Anglican entities and individuals hope that ECUSA will not be disciplined by the Anglican Communion.

They hope this for many reasons.

Some believe that the Anglican Communion is also hopelessly revisionist, and believe that any attempts to discipline and boundary the Anglican Communion further is but “placing a ring in the nose of a pig”.

Some believe that, if only traditional Episcopalians would give up on the Anglican Communion, all of them/us [traditional Episcopalians] would leave, join with the rest of the conservative Anglicans, and build a better “alternate communion”.

And some hope for the fracture of the Anglican Communion, and recognize that the only hope for a significant fracture of the Anglican Communion will be if certain parties—the Global South, for instance—realize that ECUSA will not be disciplined. Once a fracture of the Anglican Communion occurs, some believe that they will achieve a more central, prominent, and powerful place in the new, reconstituted, traditional fragment of the former communion than they have otherwise achieved.”

[27] Posted by Sarah on 09-06-2007 at 04:16 PM • top

What to me seems missing in these arguments in any precise form is the matter of who has the authority to administer discipline, at least within the reference of the biblical texts cited? When it comes the the matter of the Anglican Communion fed coms seems to suggest that discipline is in the hands of those who withdraw and the act of withdrawal is discipline, a point not far from the fed-lib position that if the Primates discipline TEC, TEC should withdraw as a sign that such discipline is outside the competency of the Primates. TEC disciplines the Communion by schism.

If the Dar decisions remain intact, and I know of no competent authority which has annulled them, then the process must continue. If any decisions of the Primates about TEC, made later in the year, are to be challenged, they must be challenged by those who are members of the Communion for no one else possesses that authority. Leaving removes immediate authority and immediate responsibility.  It is for that reason that I remain amazed that those who no longer are communicants of TEC or of the Communion remain convinced that they should have a say in the fate of both entities.

[28] Posted by wvparson on 09-17-2007 at 06:23 AM • top

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