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Welcome to Stand Firm!

John Shelby Spong Writes to the Archbishop of Canterbury

Thursday, September 6, 2007 • 2:51 pm


I am waiting, now, for the Presiding Bishop to publicly repudiate this letter. As Bishop of Nevada, Presiding Bishop Schori invited John Spong to her diocese to “facilitate” a clergy conference. This invitation came despite his many publications that together represent a wholesale rejection not only basic tenets of the Christian faith but theism in general. As Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church it is her responsibility to publicly reject and repudiate the false teachings of John Shelby Spong; teachings that lead people away from Christ and toward eternal damnation. Moreover, given her willingness (and that of the province she leads) to defy Communion teaching and reject Communion requests I pray that she will also repudiate the contents of this letter. Otherwise, again, she risks association with them. 

Dear Rowan,

I am delighted that you have agreed to meet with the House of Bishops of the American Episcopal Church in September, even if you appear to be unwilling to come alone. It has seemed strange that you, who have had so much to say about the American Church, have not been willing to do so before now. Your office is still honored by Episcopalians in this country, so our bishops will welcome you warmly and politely. We have some amazingly competent men and women in that body, many of whom have not yet met you.

There is clearly an estrangement between that body and you in your role as the Archbishop of Canterbury. I want to share with you my understanding of the sources of that estrangement. First, I believe that most of our senior bishops, including me, were elated, at your appointment by Queen Elizabeth II and Prime Minister Tony Blair. Most Americans are not aware that yours is an appointed, not an elected position. Those of us who knew you were keenly aware of your intellectual gifts, your openness on all of the great social debates of our generation and indeed of your personal warmth. We also believed that the Lambeth Conference of 1998, presided over by your predecessor, George Carey, had been a disaster that would haunt the Communion for at least a quarter of a century. An assembly of bishops hissing at and treating fellow bishops with whom they disagreed quite rudely, was anything but an example of Christian community. The unwillingness of that hostile majority to listen to the voices of invited gay Christians, their use of the Bible in debate as a weapon to justify prejudice, the almost totalitarian attempt made to manage the press and to prevent access to the wider audience and the dishonest denial of the obvious and blatant homophobia among the bishops made that Lambeth Conference the most disillusioning ecclesiastical gathering I have ever attended. The Church desperately needed new leadership and so many of us greeted your appointment with hope. Your detractors in the evangelical camp both in England and in the third world actively lobbied against your appointment. The hopes of those of us who welcomed your appointment were, however, short lived because in one decision after another you seemed incapable of functioning as the leader the Church wanted and needed.

It began at the moment of your appointment when you wrote a public letter to the other primates assuring them that you would not continue in your enlightened and open engagement with the moral issue of defining and welcoming those Christians who are gay and lesbian.

We all knew where you stood. Your ministry had not been secret. We knew you had been one of the voices that sought to temper the homophobia of your predecessor’s rhetoric. We knew of your personal friendship with gay clergy and that you had even knowingly ordained a gay man to the priesthood. You, however, seemed to leap immediately to the conclusion that unity was more important than truth. Perhaps you did not realize that your appointment as the archbishop was because you had different values from those of your predecessor and that your values were exactly what the Church wanted and needed in its new archbishop.

In that letter, in a way that was to me a breathtaking display of ineptitude and moral weakness, you effectively abdicated your leadership role. The message you communicated was that in the service of unity you would surrender to whoever had the loudest public voice.

A leader gets only one chance to make a good first impression and you totally failed that chance. Unity is surely a virtue, but it must be weighed against truth, the Church’s primary virtue.

Next came the bizarre episode of the appointment of the Rev. Dr. Jeffrey John, a known gay priest, to be the area bishop for Reading in the Diocese of Oxford. He was proposed by the Bishop of Oxford, Richard Harries. The nomination was approved by all of the necessary authorities, including you, the Prime Minister and the Queen. The fundamentalists and the evangelicals were predictably severe and anything but charitable or Christian. They and their allies in the press assassinated Jeffrey John’s character and made his life miserable. Once again you collapsed in the face of this pressure and, in a four-hour conversation, you forced your friend and mine, Jeffery John, who is not only a brilliant New Testament scholar, but also one who gave you his word that he was living a celibate life, to resign his appointment to that Episcopal office. The message went out for all to hear that if people are angry enough, the Archbishop will always back down. Your leadership, as well as our trust in your integrity, all but disappeared.

Shortly thereafter, you concurred in a “guilt” appointment by naming Jeffrey Dean of St. Alban’s Cathedral. It is a strange church and a strange hierarchy that proclaims that a gay man cannot be a bishop but can be a dean. Your credibility suffered once again.

When Gene Robinson in the United States was elected the Bishop of New Hampshire and, more particularly, when his election was confirmed by a concurrent majority of the bishops, priests and lay deputies at the General Convention (read General Synod), you appeared to panic. You called an urgent meeting of the primates of the entire Anglican Communion and allowed them to express enormous hostility. No one seemed to challenge either their use of scripture, which revealed an amazing ignorance of the last 250 years of biblical scholarship, or their understanding of homosexuality. By acting as if homosexuality is a choice made by evil people they violated everything that medical science has discovered about sexual orientation in the last century.

Just as the Church was historically wrong in its treatment of women, so now as a result of your leadership, we are espousing a position about homosexuality that is dated, uninformed, inhumane and frankly embarrassing. No learned person stands there today.

Then you appointed the group, under Robin Eames’ chairmanship, that produced the Windsor Report. That report confirmed every mistake you had already made. It asked the American Church to apologize to other parts of the Anglican Communion for its “insensitivity.” Can one apologize for trying to end prejudice and oppression? If the issue were slavery, would you ask for an apology to the slave holders? That report got the response it deserved. Our leaders were indeed sorry that others felt hurt, but they were not prepared to apologize for taking a giant step in removing one more killing prejudice from both the Church and the world. Those angry elements of the church were not satisfied by the Windsor report, inept as it was. They never will be until they have bent you and this communion into a pre-modern, hate filled, Bible quoting group of people incapable of embracing the world in which we live.

Next came threats issued by the primates of the excommunication of the American Episcopal Church from the Anglican Communion, as if they actually had that power. Ultimatums and deadlines for us to conform to their homophobia were treated by you as if that were appropriate behavior. When the American Church elected Katharine Jefferts-Schori to be its Presiding Bishop and thus the Primate of our Province, your response to that major achievement was pathetic. You did not rejoice that equality had finally been achieved in our struggle against sexism; your concern was about how much more difficult her election would make the life of the Anglican Communion. Once again, institutional peace was made primary to the rising consciousness that challenges what the Church has done to women for so long. When Katharine took her place among the other primates, she underwent with dignity, the refusal of some of those bishops to receive communion with her. Is that the mentality required to build unity?

Later you issued a statement saying that if homosexuals want to be received in the life of the Church, they will have to change their behavior. I found that statement incredible. If you mean they have to change from being homosexual then you are obviously not informed about homosexuality. It is not a choice or a sin, anymore than being left handed, or male or female, or black or even transgender is a choice or a sin. All of us simply awaken to these aspects of our identity. That truth is so elementary and so well documented that only prejudiced eyes can fail to recognize it. No one in intellectual circles today still gives that point of view credibility..

Next you declined to invite Gene Robinson to the Lambeth Conference of 2008. All of the closeted homosexual bishops are invited, the honest one is not invited. I can name the gay bishops who have, during my active career. served in both the Episcopal Church and in the Church of England? I bet you can too. Are you suggesting that dishonesty is a virtue?

You continue to act as if quoting the Bible to undergird a dying prejudice is a legitimate tactic. It is in fact the last resort that religious people always use to validate “tradition” over change. The Bible was quoted to support the Divine Right of Kings in 1215, to oppose Galileo in the 17th century, to oppose Darwin in the 19th century, to support slavery and apartheid in the 19th and 20th centuries, to keep women from being educated, voting and being ordained in the 20th and 21st century. Today it is quoted to continue the oppression and rejection of homosexual people. The Bible has lost each of those battles. It will lose the present battle and you, my friend, will end up on the wrong side of history, the wrong side of morality and the wrong side of truth. It is a genuine tragedy that you, the most intellectually-gifted Archbishop of Canterbury in almost a century, have become so miserable a failure in so short a period of time.

You were appointed to lead, Rowan, not to capitulate to the hysterical anger of those who are locked in the past. For the sake of God and this Church, the time has come for you to do so. I hope you still have that capability.

John Shelby Spong, 8th Bishop of Newark, Retired


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Comments:

I should know better, but every time I think that Spong cannot top himself for gall, he does.  Lecturing the Archbishop as though he were a third-form schoolboy…  Good grief!

[1] Posted by AnglicanXn on 09-06-2007 at 02:33 PM • top

Yes, I firmly believe the Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church should publicly distance herself, her office and The Episcopal Church from John Spong’s rhetoric - however - I also believe that John Spong may be considered by the Presiding Bishop to be a reasonable and accurate proxy for the office of the Presiding Bishop - how unfortunate!

[2] Posted by Humble on 09-06-2007 at 02:37 PM • top

I am speechless.

[3] Posted by CarolynP on 09-06-2007 at 02:38 PM • top

What a slap in the face.  Good heavens, didn’t he show this letter to anyone before he sent it?  Did he really write this?  This isn’t a parody, is it?

We may have to have a dramatic reading of this letter.  Stay tuned.

bb

[4] Posted by BabyBlue on 09-06-2007 at 02:38 PM • top

remember +++Rowan has previously found little use for +Spong:
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13880.htm

methinks this time around shall be no different.

[5] Posted by Chris on 09-06-2007 at 02:40 PM • top

This is where all of TEC is going, fast, should there be no discipline.

I pray that Abp. Rowan understands this, and knows that the Church of England should not tie its fortunes to this nonsense.

[6] Posted by Rick Killough on 09-06-2007 at 02:43 PM • top

Wow, where to begin?  I’ve seen better hissy-fits from my grandkids, but goodness, there is so much here!
First of all, why oh why is this drivel public?  Of course JSS wants some kind of validation, but his calling the AofC onto the carpet like an errant schoolboy (or even acting as though he had a right or reason to!) is just bad form.  I would want to hope that his mama raised him better - but I forget that liberals can excuse bad manners by saying they are “telling the truth” (and making it public).

You were appointed to lead, Rowan, not to capitulate to the hysterical anger of those who are locked in the past.

  Sorry, this is just funny.

breathtaking display of ineptitude and moral weakness

  This, however, is not

[7] Posted by GillianC on 09-06-2007 at 02:44 PM • top

We may have to have a dramatic reading of this letter.  Stay tuned.

Oh JOY! grin

[8] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 09-06-2007 at 02:51 PM • top

Purple Gasbag lets another one.

[9] Posted by Irenaeus on 09-06-2007 at 02:58 PM • top

I followed Chris’ link above.  Spong thinks that he is more intelligent than Abp Williams, but the Abp demonstrates that Spong is not even close:
“Culturally speaking, the Christian religion is one of those subjects about which it is cool to be ignorant. Spong’s account of classical Christian faith simply colludes with such ignorance in a way that cannot surely reflect his own knowledge of it. I think I understand the passion behind all this, the passion to make sense to those for whom the faith is at best quaint and at worst oppressive, nonsense.
But the sense is made (in so far as it is made at all) by a denial of the resources already there - to the extent that Spong’s own continuing commitment to the tradition becomes incomprehensible.”

[10] Posted by AnglicanXn on 09-06-2007 at 03:02 PM • top

Bishop Spong speaking in love and with love to +++Rowan:

o “The hopes of those of us who welcomed your appointment were, however, short lived because in one decision after another you seemed incapable of functioning as the leader the Church wanted and needed.”

o “In that letter, in a way that was to me a breathtaking display of ineptitude and moral weakness, you effectively abdicated your leadership role.”

o “A leader gets only one chance to make a good first impression and you totally failed that chance.”

o “Once again you collapsed in the face of this pressure and, in a four-hour conversation, you forced your friend and mine, Jeffery John, who is not only a brilliant New Testament scholar, but also one who gave you his word that he was living a celibate life, to resign his appointment to that Episcopal office. The message went out for all to hear that if people are angry enough, the Archbishop will always back down. Your leadership, as well as our trust in your integrity, all but disappeared.”

o “That [Windsor] report confirmed every mistake you had already made.”

o “When the American Church elected Katharine Jefferts-Schori to be its Presiding Bishop and thus the Primate of our Province, your response to that major achievement was pathetic.”

o “If you mean they have to change from being homosexual then you are obviously not informed about homosexuality.”

o “Are you suggesting that dishonesty is a virtue?”

o “It is a genuine tragedy that you, the most intellectually-gifted Archbishop of Canterbury in almost a century, have become so miserable a failure in so short a period of time.

o “You were appointed to lead, Rowan, not to capitulate to the hysterical anger of those who are locked in the past.”

But +++Rowan, we progressives want you to capitulate to the hysterical anger of those who are locked into modern secular liberalism.

[11] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-06-2007 at 03:05 PM • top

Jim Naughton, whom I often disagree with, wrote this astute comment on Spong’s letter:

“Bishop John Shelby Spong has written an open letter to Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury that rehashes old complaints that have been extensively aired elsewhere and seems calculated to give offense. It is perhaps best seen as an act of unconscious self-marginalization (not to mention bad manners.) Spong…has become one of those figures whose public utterances frequently do more to bolster the cause of his adversaries than his allies.

“If one were attempting to poison the atmosphere when the archbishop and the Episcopal Church’s House of Bishops gather in New Orleans on September 20-21, this is the letter one would write. Its publication places a burden on Episcopal bishops who favor the full inclusion of the baptized in all ministries of the Church, and continued membership in the Anglican Communion. They now must make it clear that Archbishop Rowan will receive a warmer welcome than this letter suggests.”
http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/an_unfortunate_letter.html

[12] Posted by Irenaeus on 09-06-2007 at 03:07 PM • top

Chutzpah - pure, unadulterated and good right out of the bottle!

[13] Posted by mstuart4 on 09-06-2007 at 03:09 PM • top

Wow—it’s encouraging to read such a screed from Bishop Spong. 

Makes me almost appreciate the ABC.  Almost.

[14] Posted by Sarah on 09-06-2007 at 03:12 PM • top

I am speechless, and as much as I have detested just about all the things I have ever read Spong write or said….surprisingly I agree with his assessment….Wow what strange bedfellows this crisis reveals….
Lord have mercy on me a sinner!

seraph

[15] Posted by seraph on 09-06-2007 at 03:19 PM • top

Well, he mentioned some of the current battles, but certinaly he left out some others.
What about the growing battle over the full inclusion of pedophiles?  Afterall, they are created that way and for them to act that way is like a left-handed person using his left hand to write…its natural.  Or what about the battle over serial killing?  Afterall, every real intellectual knows that serial killers are born that way and asking them not to kill is just as ludicrous as asking a black person not to be black.
Or what about narcissists?  they are innocent.  they can’t help that they think about themselves all day…that’s just the way they are.
Or what about being introverted and shy?  I am upset that shy people are not allowed by society to just stay in their homes all day.  it’s so cruel making them go to work everyday.
Let’s all face it, Spong is the greatest academic of our day.

[16] Posted by Tony Romo on 09-06-2007 at 03:20 PM • top

Good for Jim Naughton. ZAP!

Is “senility” still a category in the DSM? It sounds like hardening of the arteries is setting in for the Spong.

[17] Posted by Gator on 09-06-2007 at 03:21 PM • top

Note to Jake:  With friends like this ....

I’m really grateful to the retired bishop; we badly needed the laugh.

[18] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 09-06-2007 at 03:21 PM • top

This is a very interesting letter, but not for the reasdons Bp. Spong thinks it is.

Spong’s purpose is not to persuade Rowan Williams but to condemn him. Spong clearly fulfilled that goal, harshly and emphatically.

The interesting feature is this: Why does Spong want to condemn the ABC now? I infer that Spong is hearing through the grapevine (his revisionists buddies in England?) that the ABC is headed in the “wrong” direction, i.e. that on Sept. 30, the ABC will not give TEC a pass.

How good are Spong’s sources of information? I cannot tell. But it will be interesting to watch the reaction of senior, networked officials in TEC to Spong’s denunciation. Note well that James Naughton, who is connected, did not say that Spong is wrong about the ABC, only that Spong’s outburst was rude and counterproductive.

[19] Posted by Publius on 09-06-2007 at 03:33 PM • top

Actually, if I adopted +Spong’s worldview and the presuppositions upon which his worldview rests, then he’s really very consistent and logical in the substance of his letter. 

And honestly, looking at all the criticism and hoots and hollers at +Spong, well, part of it really should be directed at the ECUSA bishops back in the day.  He shouldn’t have been elected bishop in the first place.  He should have been disciplined or defrocked but wasn’t.  Now look what happened because of a failure to discipline in a timely manner.

Spong is a mini-case study into what will happen to the Anglican Communion as a whole if TEC is not disciplined in a timely way.

Specifically, ABC needs to revoke TEC’s Lambeth invitations shortly after 9/30.

Otherwise, the heresy and apostasy of TEC-Spong will spawn virulently throughout the Anglican Communion.

[20] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-06-2007 at 03:36 PM • top

What TUaD wrote is true and must be remembered—this is the logical and foreseeable direction in which an undisciplined TEC will head.  In each case, the substance may not be exactly as Spong gives it, but it will be equally virulent, far-fetched, and beyond the most distant pale of orthodoxy.

While the words border on comical, the letter itself represents a deadly-serious trend.  While I want to laugh, I can only cry.

[21] Posted by Rick Killough on 09-06-2007 at 03:52 PM • top

“What has it got in it’s pocketsesss????  A letter of appointment?  Canterbury…yesss….Canterbury…...You’ll ruins it, you’ll ruins it!!!!”

inane babble….

Pity is the only Christ-like reaction to such a letter as this.

[22] Posted by Saint Dumb Ox on 09-06-2007 at 04:02 PM • top

Ah, the Ugly American, again.  Just ignore him, Jim Naughton et alia, he’s only a far-out, nutcase.  Right? 

Clearly delineated for all to see is the exact extent to which the conversation will lead.  Dialogue is impossible due to the fixity of the liberal position which Spong clearly articulates as apparently from the Tablets on Mount (pseudo)Scientia. 

I do recall that it was predicted on this site years ago that when the ABC did not fall in with the revisionists they would turn on him and tear him to pieces.  Voila!  My compliments to the prophet.  It is done!  See what thwarted revisionism hath wrought.

But, as observed above, it is ONLY the TONE that Jim Naughton objects to, not the disingenuity, lack of perspicacity, or distortion of science into pseudoscience.  Mark, learn, and inwardly digest these data given by Spong.  You will be hearing it again and again and again.

[23] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 09-06-2007 at 04:14 PM • top

Sounds like JSS needs his meds adjusted.  I’ve seen hyperbole before, but, mercy!  Or as we say in the South, “Bless his heart!”

[24] Posted by Charles III on 09-06-2007 at 04:22 PM • top

Honestly, I don’t join Matt or Jim Naughton’s calls to repudiate this.  It is expressed quite rudely, but this is how the leadership of the TEC feels.  Surely that’s apparent to everyone?

And look at the context: Basically, the ball got rolling to demand that the ABC come visit because of a similarly rude letter the Bishop of Bethlehem wrote to the ABC last spring.  This letter was roundly cheered in revisionist circles.  And a short time later at the HOB meeting, they all decide to “invite” the ABC to come in September.  In so doing, they were basically all agreeing with the Bishop of Bethlehem.  And they were still quite rude in their official “invitation.”  Remember the offer to have him come at the HOB’s “expense.”  Patronizing.  Tacky.  They were daring him not to show.  And the whiny implication clearly was “YOU HAVE NEVER LISTENED TO US!  THE PROBLEM ISN’T US, IT’S YOU!  COME HERE SO WE CAN SET YOU STRAIGHT.”

And so then the ABC agreed to come.  And what does he get?  Hit in the face with this nasty missive, which quite accurately sums up how the leadership in the TEC feels and acts at this point.  They have complete and utter contempt for those who have a traditionalist perspective.  The “listening process” they demanded requires that their actions be endorsed in full.  I hope the ABC realizes that NOTHING he says will appease the TEC.  He needs to know that before he gets here.

[25] Posted by Nasty, Brutish & Short on 09-06-2007 at 04:23 PM • top

Talk about a loose canon!  Does anyone take this nut seriously or is he an embarrassment to both sides?  How will the Worthy Opponents spin this?

[26] Posted by Elizabeth on 09-06-2007 at 04:28 PM • top

Elizabeth, the “Worthy Opponents” will ignore it completely.

[27] Posted by AnglicanXn on 09-06-2007 at 05:06 PM • top

Spong wrote: “The hopes of those of us who welcomed your appointment were, however, short lived because in one decision after another you seemed incapable of functioning as the leader the Church wanted and needed.”  While I disagree with everything else that this clown-and I do mean “clown”-wrote in this heretical/drivel laden diatribe-I must admit that he was dead on with the above quoted statement.

[28] Posted by Bob K. on 09-06-2007 at 05:17 PM • top

Oh My!  I confess I did not read the entire letter.  Not worth the ink, much less my time to read it.  Amazing that such would come from any bishop (supposedly full of grace), but especially an Episcopal bishop who is so well trained in politically correct speech.  Oh my!

Sadly though, this is seems to represent how most revisionist think.  Perhaps it is God’s will that the truth of such repugnancy is made known at this hour.

[29] Posted by Spencer on 09-06-2007 at 05:19 PM • top

To those who are shocked—this is the same “pastoral” tone that I remember from some Spong’s columns in the diocesan newspaper—the one on why we must abolish the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols comes to mind.

[30] Posted by In Newark on 09-06-2007 at 05:24 PM • top

I think Spong did a great favor to conservatives in writing this letter.  Thank you, Spong.  You should open your big mouth more often!

[31] Posted by Third Mill Catholic on 09-06-2007 at 05:27 PM • top

The Bible has lost each of those battles. It will lose the present battle and you, my friend, will end up on the wrong side of history, the wrong side of morality and the wrong side of truth.

About which a few comments:
1.  That’s what you might call “secular triumphalism” - triumphalism normally being considered a bad thing among progressives.  We’ll see if they complain.
2.  The messenger of Sennacherib said something like this before the gates of Jerusalem, and we all know how that turned out - 185,000 dead men later.

“Say to Hezekiah king of Judah: Do not let the god you depend on deceive you when he says, ‘Jerusalem will not be handed over to the king of Assyria.’ Surely you have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all the countries, destroying them completely. And will you be delivered? Did the gods of the nations that were destroyed by my forefathers deliver them?  2 Kings 19:10-12

3.  The secular culture he presumes is winning happens to be aborting and contracepting itself right out of existence.  It’s hard to give much credit to the superiority of a world-view whose principle feature is nihilistic self-annihilation.

carl

[32] Posted by carl on 09-06-2007 at 05:27 PM • top

We may have to have a dramatic reading of this letter.  Stay tuned.

bb

YES!

Fr. Jake:

This guy is GREAT.  I can see why you defend him so avidly and find nothing wrong with what he says.  He is a definite ‘ace’ in the corner…

please keep him in your corner, OK?

We’ll keep the sane folk in ours.

[33] Posted by Eclipse on 09-06-2007 at 05:29 PM • top

This should be attached to the new & improved Constituion & canons of the day for our Episcopal leadership. This letter should be shown to each communicant in our church. Maybe a few more eyes will be opened. Good grief indeed.

  The saddest part is that a person of influence is leading good people down the road to Hell & damnation. Of course he & his pitiful group of colleagues , PB included, cannot see their wrong. They still believe this to be the next great Civil Rights victory. Salvation is still not a right but a gift. A gift not all will be given.

I am slightly different from most Episcopalians who believe that once Batized always saved by grace. The opporutunity is always there to recieve but there is also the option to leave the Body of Christ. Salvation is not a sprinkling of water & presto your done, but a way of life in which one accepts, not dictates.

Pray for these spritually belligerent persons including Spong, as it should always be our goal for all to accept Christ as their saviour. It is still possible for John Spong to do so also.

“Not everyone who calls me “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ony those who do what my Father wants them to do. When the Judgement Day comes, many will say to ME, ‘Lord ,Lord’! In your name we spoke Gods’ message , by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles! Then will I say to them “I never knew you. Get away from me , you wicked people!!’

Matthew 7: 21-23 from TEV

[34] Posted by Mtn gospel on 09-06-2007 at 05:33 PM • top

John Shelby Spong. Idiot.

[35] Posted by Anglican Paplist on 09-06-2007 at 05:36 PM • top

Even as someone who agrees with much of what +Spong is saying, I have to say he’s obviously just showboating.  Nothing to see here, and nothing that should surprise anyone. 

Remember that Bishop Spong is no longer an active bishop; he is an author.  He benefits from publicity and controversy, but he has no professional stake in this anymore, so if he writes something terribly unproductive that seems to function only as a way to draw attention to himself, odds are reasonably good that this was at least part of the idea.

[36] Posted by Tom Head on 09-06-2007 at 05:37 PM • top

The Spongster really has a very fetching and unique way of drawing +++Rowan over to his side. He really does not disappoint. Must be off his meds. Again. Still.

[37] Posted by Dilbertnomore on 09-06-2007 at 05:41 PM • top

How hard is it to say it:

Let him be anathema.

Just curious.

gato

[38] Posted by gatogordo on 09-06-2007 at 05:50 PM • top

“Later you issued a statement saying that if homosexuals want to be received in the life of the Church, they will have to change their behavior.”

Well, duh.  So must we all change our behavior to conform to the Gospel, each and every one of us, curbing our appetites and sinful inclinations, whatever our besetting sins may be, and growing in virtue.

Anyone know the source for this piece of, er, stuff?  Fr. Matt?

[39] Posted by Connie Sandlin on 09-06-2007 at 05:51 PM • top

Two quick thoughts:  (1)  Why is anyone assuming this wasn’t endorsed and encouraged by TEC?  It’s an old political ploy - get someone who is widely perceived as a loose cannon to spout off with what you really think.  It’s called “deniability” if it backfires.  (2)  Interesting this coming out in light of all the criticism Fr. Matt took over the last few days for allegedly “waving the Spong flag.”

[40] Posted by Horseman on 09-06-2007 at 05:58 PM • top

equality had finally been achieved in our struggle against sexism

Whew!  Glad that’s over with.

[41] Posted by James Manley on 09-06-2007 at 06:15 PM • top

Maybe Spong wants to be the next AofC !!!!

[42] Posted by justme on 09-06-2007 at 06:22 PM • top

Bishop Spong condemns himself and his party by this letter.  Let all Anglicans take note.  His vitriole emanates from every page.  His implicit repudiation of any responsible exegesis of scripture by any credible source other than himself and his ‘universalist’, subjectivist, solipsistic, social gospel futurist party.  I begged to my bisop and to him years ago that he should stop using his bishopric’s chair to enunicate his so-called theological views, and yet he persists in absuing the ordained apostolic chair beneath him.  He is a prevaricator of the worst kind - hypocritcally using his oofical statino t promulagate his radical (unfounded) views of God and His revelation.  He is a theological onanist - feeding his own passions for none other than his own pleasures.  Thus homosexuality is his passion, as it too feeds on the inward, self-justifying views of itself.  Science (to which he makes reference) has proved nothing n thelast 50 years re the biological/genetic basis for this sinful behavior.  I defy Spong or any ‘sweetheart’ bishop to produce doucmented medical evidence to the contrary.  Their case for social justice belongs in the state courts, not at Lambeth.  Let them take it there if their passion is for ‘justice’.  Never shall it change the covenants of marriage and salvation clearly enunciated in OT and NT for any coherent ‘Anglican’.  This is where I retch at Spong and (former) Bp Johnson of NC [from whence he origionates] and their like - who expect the best of well-educated and deeply compassionate Christians of the Anglican tradition to throw out their religion, well-wrought and adjudicated since the Reformation, for a porrage of sentimentalism and weak relativist, ‘sincerity-the-highest- virtue, leftist political social agenda.  Are we really so disrespectable as Christians?  So gullible? {Only generations of Bible study and ‘repentance’, liturgical and personal, can redeem our national American fellowship of the loss of this ground within the worldwide Anglican communion.)  So infantile/puerile/effete?  As to let our Bishops mislead us?  Even sheep have more common sense than to follow drooling seductive proselytizing wolves.  Spong to his chair of religon at Harvard.  I repudiate him entirely as a false prophet!  Let his Star Trek religious delusions be his own!  Close your hearts and ears to even his voice.  May he and all his disciples leave our communion and take to their trek like the Joesph Smith’s that they are!  The “Church of the latter Day Episcoplians,” who rewrite scripture at their whim.  TEC laity awake! 

My prayer is to the Spirit who leads us into all truth.

[43] Posted by BCTSpriest on 09-06-2007 at 06:31 PM • top

I deplore Spong’s vitriolic untruths in entirety; his foolish pseudo-science is embarrassing, and his manner and content are abhorrent.  Of course, the Episcopal Church is complicit in such sayings; he simply makes their views particularly clear and particularly insulting to the Archbishop.  I am an orthodox reasserter, leaving the Episcopal Church over its multiple apostasies. 

But let me say that reasserters, too, have savaged ++Rowan Williams.  There are things in the SPREAD documents that willfully misunderstand parts of his career; these must have been very painful to him, also, coming from people who presumably shared his own orthodox positions on the Credal points that he has defended against Spong and his like.  If you don’t know the scurrilous comments I mean against the ABC, you should not have missed them.  Even on this blog, and much moreso on another I have read, the insults to ++Rowan have been frequent enough, and you can not have missed them.

I, too, am deeply disappointed at the silence from the Archbishop in these crucial times, but he HAS spoken well for the orthodox on several key occasions (say what anyone will).  That’s why he has this kind of enmity from Spong and his minions.  I believe we should recognize the kind of abuse the Archbishop has taken from all sides and pray for him increasingly, with deep Christian hope that he will indeed prove a vessel of our Lord, as he is able to be.

[44] Posted by Paula on 09-06-2007 at 06:49 PM • top

Despite my (previous)many typos, here I stand.

[45] Posted by BCTSpriest on 09-06-2007 at 06:50 PM • top

Spong to Williams: meow, scratch, hiss!

[46] Posted by st. anonymous on 09-06-2007 at 07:11 PM • top

Tom Head is correct - this is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt by Spong. It’s pretty obvious by the sloppy reasoning he’s employed lo these many years that he’s not nearly as bright as he thinks he is, but he’s informed enough to know what the ABC thinks of his theology, and he’s smart enough to know that this letter won’t change +Rowan’s mind in the slightest. This is Spong’s way of sucking up to his base - letting the Integrity crowd know that he’s down with them, and oh yeah you know I write books and give lectures (for a reasonable fee). If he were a politician, this message would have been delivered in the form of a pork-laden amendment, or a podium-pounding speech in front of a glorified garden club somewhere. This is nothing more than an attempt to shore up his Episco-gay street cred. Don’t think for a moment that this letter elicited more from the ABC than a twitch of his bountiful eyebrows, and a flick of the wrist towards his circular file.

[47] Posted by Greg Griffith on 09-06-2007 at 07:14 PM • top

st. anonymous :

Anglican Cats of the Internet are completely annoyed you would take cat language and demean it in such a manner. 

Afterall, while cats might be independent, they are intelligent.

In short, WE ARE NOT AMUSED.

Pretend there is a low growling directed in your general direction.

[48] Posted by Eclipse on 09-06-2007 at 07:25 PM • top

Spong:

“No one is as learned as I is!  Alls you folk who is educated best learn from me and my folk.  We’s know’d a great deal more than you ever did learn.  EVER!”

[49] Posted by Eclipse on 09-06-2007 at 07:27 PM • top

Don’t think for a moment that this letter elicited more from the ABC than a twitch of his bountiful eyebrows, and a flick of the wrist towards his circular file.

No way, dude.  This one will bring hours and hours of glee at countless cocktail parties.

[50] Posted by JackieB on 09-06-2007 at 07:42 PM • top

I think we should come up with a useful ling of Bishop Spong teaching tools:

“Hooked on Spongics!”

What’d ya think?

[51] Posted by Eclipse on 09-06-2007 at 07:49 PM • top

What I can’t help smiling about - didn’t the ABP dissect Spong’s
“theology” with a nice precision? Still smarts, Mr. Spong?

[52] Posted by oscewicee on 09-06-2007 at 07:50 PM • top

LOL, Eclipse - all tools, and no content.

[53] Posted by oscewicee on 09-06-2007 at 07:51 PM • top

Eclipse: my apologies to all Anglican Cats.  (Anglo-Cat-olics?!)

It’s true that Spong is unlikely to be fluent in Feline.  His preferred dialect is actually that of the Mustelidae—in the vernacular, Weasel.

[54] Posted by st. anonymous on 09-06-2007 at 07:52 PM • top

st. anonymous :

I love the Anglo - Cat - olics ... for that little piece of humor you are totally forgiven. 

It’s been a long day and I’m being totally silly now.  Good thing Bishop Spong has provided us such a great avenue for humor.

[55] Posted by Eclipse on 09-06-2007 at 07:55 PM • top

His preferred dialect is actually that of the Mustelidae—in the vernacular, Weasel.

St. Anonymous, are you sure? Admittedly, I’m no linguist, but I thought it would be Crotalus adamanteus - with so much hissing?

[56] Posted by oscewicee on 09-06-2007 at 08:06 PM • top

“For the sake of God and this Church,”....who would have thunk it????  Spong invoking God….now there’s strange bedfellows!!!!  On another note, I like what Andy Rooney said:  If you don’t like homosexuals, it’s an opinion, not a phobia”.  Not that this is about liking or disliking homosexuals…I just get very tired of being discounted because of alleged “homophobia”....talk about aborting the “listening process”...I find the “Spongites” do it with that one word every time…

[57] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-06-2007 at 08:39 PM • top

All I can say is: <u>UNBELIEVABLE!</u>

[58] Posted by kyounge1956 on 09-06-2007 at 08:42 PM • top

Spong says: “......The Bible has lost each of those battles. It will lose the present battle….....”

Dear Mr. Spong,

For your information, the Bible has never lost any battle.
The Bible is never going to lose the present battle, or any in the future.

Thanks for the entertainment, though.

Spiro

[59] Posted by Spiro on 09-06-2007 at 08:52 PM • top

First, I believe that most of our senior bishops, including me, were elated…

The man is modest, isn’t he?

[60] Posted by Derek Smith on 09-06-2007 at 09:09 PM • top

This is nothing more than a trial balloon for insiders to float for a possible reaction after the HoB meeting or any future action by the Primates or the ABC.

It may be a demented trial balloon, but it’s a trial balloon.  Look for the toned down version in your local Episcopal Cafe shop before Advent and in time for Christmas shopping.

On a related note, I saw elsewhere today that Spong still believes in life after death, but isn’t sure why, as it’s not necessary for his theological system.  Quaint, but unimportant.

[61] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 09-06-2007 at 09:15 PM • top

Dramatic Reading is now up at at the Cafe here.

bb
BabyBlueOnline

[62] Posted by BabyBlue on 09-06-2007 at 09:16 PM • top

Those angry elements of the church were not satisfied by the Windsor report, inept as it was. They never will be until they have bent you and this communion into a pre-modern, hate filled, Bible quoting group of people incapable of embracing the world in which we live.

Why didn’t Spong end this last sentence with: Damn it!

[63] Posted by DaveW on 09-06-2007 at 09:20 PM • top

Tidies and Bundlemen!
Spong hat we awaded dissy pissle
Philippianoff de Rowan.
Iffy new bed hurry wood knobby jawin’ shall be Spong.

[64] Posted by Irenaeus on 09-06-2007 at 09:23 PM • top

The one part that confuses me: in paragraphs 2 and 4, what does Spong mean by ‘Church’? In paragraph 2 he emphasizes that Williams was appointed (as opposed to elected) and that the majority of the Communion (which would include bishops and laity) were against his liberal views.
But then he says twice that a liberal leader is what the Church ‘wanted and needed’. So does he think the Church is ... the British PM and the monarch? Is this a veiled threat insinuating that American liberal elites are somehow the true Church, and that Williams will suffer (financially?) for his disobedience?

Otherwise, this is totally unsurprising as TH noted. He says stuff like this about Carey and Williams regularly in his newsletters (I get the free Q/A version, not $40 annual Spong Gold Membership that includes a weekly essay).

It’s so forced and affected it shouldn’t ruffle anyone’s composure, except to give you a bit of a snigger.

[65] Posted by SpongJohn SquarePantheist on 09-06-2007 at 09:25 PM • top

BabyBlue: Fine dramatic reading. I was also impressed by your charity and good taste in leaving out the part where Spong takes off his shoes and pounds the table.

[66] Posted by Irenaeus on 09-06-2007 at 09:36 PM • top

Dear Bishop Bottom,

Regarding your recent letter to ++Rowan Williams, I must say that I am extremely disappointed.  Really, did you think that something this restrained will win over the ++ABC to the Glorious Cause, once and for all?
 
I encourage you to redeem yourself from this display of homophobic cowardice, by continuing to write ++ABC until you get it right.  The more condescending and vitriolic, the better.  And, the more frequent and public, the better. 

This should be easy for a Great Man Of Our Time, such as yourself. 

Man up. 

Sincerely,
Noone Special

[67] Posted by Moot on 09-06-2007 at 09:37 PM • top

In Newark, any chance that you hate that interesting letter to which you have referred in this comment?  “. . . this is the same “pastoral” tone that I remember from some Spong’s columns in the diocesan newspaper—the one on why we must abolish the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols comes to mind.”

And this is clearly the Blog Comment of the Week and deserves a fine StandFirm award: “What has it got in it’s pocketsesss????  A letter of appointment?  Canterbury…yesss….Canterbury…...You’ll ruins it, you’ll ruins it!!!!”

[68] Posted by Sarah on 09-06-2007 at 09:39 PM • top

Oscewicee: Not Crotalus adamanteus (venomous enough, but too brave for Spong) but Crocuta crocuta.

[69] Posted by Irenaeus on 09-06-2007 at 09:50 PM • top

“...An assembly of bishops hissing at and treating fellow bishops with whom they disagreed quite rudely, was anything but an example of Christian community…”.

Is the purple gasbag referring to the time when, at Lambeth ‘98, he referred to several African bishops as “animists”? 

And who is it again that’s “prejudiced” here? 

“they violated everything that medical science has discovered about sexual orientation in the last century”.

I guess Jack hasn’t read the following, an excellent review of the literature: 

http://anglicancommunioninstitute.com/content/view/108/1/

If he had, Jack would know that medical science really hasn’t come up with “jack” on the homosexuality question.  Interesting pun…

hmmm 

And oh, by the way, all you clergy out there—you’re not supposed to be “Bible-quoting” anymore.  The “bishop” said so…

That cork-out-of-a-bottle sound you’re all hearing is simply ex-Brother Newark flipping his lid…

My mother enjoys the old saying, “we all mature at different ages”.  But, the accurate corollary to it is that, obviously, some people NEVER do. 

Good grief…

[70] Posted by Passing By on 09-06-2007 at 10:01 PM • top

Sorry, I don’t get all the shock, shock here.

As to substance, what is it that Spong has said that consistent revisionists don’t agree with? He assumes, rightly or wrongly, that RW agrees with his fundamental principles and wants him to act in a more manly, transparent manner.

As to tone, is it not appropriate that TEC be full of passionate intensity as it slinks toward the new Bethlehem to be born.* Isn’t the Fairy Hardcastle approach** to lawsuits another way of expressing the same tone? The only reason not to speak like this is church politics. Spong did manage to enrage many GS bishops at Lambeth 1998, but who knows how such a volley like this will sound in the present context? Yes, it might alienate the ABC; on the other hand, it may give the PB and crew an excuse to say “we’re the moderates.”
*from W.B. Yeats, “The Second Coming”
**from C.S. Lewis, That Hideous Strength

[71] Posted by Stephen Noll on 09-06-2007 at 10:04 PM • top

bb- A superb realization of the letter! Bravissima!

[72] Posted by Publius on 09-06-2007 at 10:10 PM • top

Vernacular:  The ABC sure got a sponging!
Formal:  The heretic retired bishop received a missive which left him identifiably sponged.

[73] Posted by montanan on 09-06-2007 at 10:41 PM • top

As to substance, what is it that Spong has said that consistent revisionists don’t agree with?

I agree.  My earlier post at 3:36pm said as much.  Spong’s substantive argument is internally consistent based upon his presuppositions.

P.S.  Thank you Rick Killough for your earlier affirmation.  I truly do believe that +Spong is a microcosm precursor to what will happen to the Anglican Communion if TEC is not disciplined shortly after 9/30/07 in the form of withdrawn Lambeth invitations.  Of course, the spreading heresy and apostasy won’t affect those provinces who will have undertaken wise, biblical separation from a corrupted, heretical Communion that refuses to discipline itself.

[74] Posted by Truth Unites... and Divides on 09-06-2007 at 10:41 PM • top

Oops - should have been “The heretic retired bishop delivered a missive which left the ABC identifiably sponged.”  My apologies at my poor sentence structure.

[75] Posted by montanan on 09-06-2007 at 10:43 PM • top

Tom Head:
Regarding your statement: “Remember that Bishop Spong is no longer an active Bishop; he is an author. He benefits from publicity and controversy, but he has no professional stake in this anymore,”

I understand that Spong is a retired Bishop but I have read something that gave me the impression that is he a member of the House of Bishops. Does Spong have any voting power or influence there? 
If the Presiding Bishop has allied herself with people like Spong, I hope his letter will cause her to realize she has allied herself with enemies of the Church that she has promised to protect.

[76] Posted by Betty See on 09-06-2007 at 10:48 PM • top

click…click….click…...

Ah yes Rowan is was all worked out, foolproof. You were perfect and the plan should of proceeded post haste. But NO! those people quoting Bibles, they turned you. It’s sub-standard I tell you….disloyal…you scoffing at me and spreading wild rumors about steaming in circles and then ‘Old Purplestain.’ ......like the strawberries….

click…click…click….

Ahh, but the strawberries that’s… that’s where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with… geometric logic… that a duplicate key to the vestry icebox DID exist, and I’d have produced that key if they hadn’t of pulled the Communion out of action. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow Christians….. I, I, I

click…click…click….

But…but…well just ask me any question you want. I’m happy to answer questions….I know everything…I know…....I…....

click…click…..click….

[77] Posted by Rocks on 09-06-2007 at 10:58 PM • top

Oh…just to prove it’s not all bad I can say something good about Spong. At least he doesn’t list all his HONORARY degrees after his name. wink

[78] Posted by Rocks on 09-06-2007 at 11:05 PM • top

I’m curious:  does anyone know where Spong’s letter was first published?  I can’t find the source.

[79] Posted by slcath on 09-06-2007 at 11:10 PM • top

...spreading wild rumors about steaming in circles and then ‘Old Purplestain.’

That made my night.  :D

[80] Posted by carl on 09-06-2007 at 11:11 PM • top

Sarah - Here is Bp. Spong’s 1997 essay, “Rethinking the Festival of Lessons and Carols”. Here is his main point:

Despite its history, the beauty of its music and even its popularity, I do not believe I would allow this service in its present form again in a church where I was serving as rector or vicar. Nor do I believe I would attend this service again by choice. My reason is that the service of lessons and carols is based on a fundamentally flawed theological concept. As such, it undergirds an attitude toward the Bible that I find uninformed and increasingly distasteful.

When Bp. Scrooge’s essay first appeared, I thoroughly fisked it on the OrthodoxAnglican list. Now, however, I’ll just say that one of the things I’m sure I will miss in the Byzantine Rite is singing Christmas carols. So I’m looking forward to returning to my old Episcopal parish every January for an evening of Lessons & Carols.

[81] Posted by Roland on 09-06-2007 at 11:16 PM • top

But let me say that reasserters, too, have savaged ++Rowan Williams. There are things in the SPREAD documents that willfully misunderstand parts of his career; these must have been very painful to him, also, coming from people who presumably shared his own orthodox positions on the Credal points that he has defended against Spong and his like.
Paula - Thanks for saving me the trouble.

Those who think and operate within a bipolar political model, whether ‘conservative’ or ‘liberal’, will always be disappointed by +Rowan, who defies not only the poles, but the whole model. He must be understood on his own terms or not at all. With Spong, it’s apparently the latter.

[82] Posted by Roland on 09-06-2007 at 11:33 PM • top

This letter shows JSS is 50+ years out of date. He uses the word “truth” as if the Enlightenment and Modernism still had any validity. Spong’s still clinging to the early 20C ideas that gave us the Great Society, the Marshal Plan… along with Nazism and Stalinism. We humans aren’t progressing to a better society on our own. We do not have the power within ourselves to fix the world’s ills. Life expectancy may be higher than 100 years ago, but most social and moral issues are still intractable.

JSS, wake up! Modernism failed. There’s the Truth God gives (i.e. “premodernism”) and there’s the painful awareness that man is blind to the Truth (i.e. “postmodernism”). You’re simply an anachronism.

And a bore.

[83] Posted by texex on 09-06-2007 at 11:35 PM • top

To me, the saddest and most telling line in JSS’s essay on the Festival of Lessons and Carols is this:

I too want the Church to shout to the highest heaven “God was in this Christ!”

Not:  God is this Christ!  I can’t remember which heresy this is (Arianism?) but this is so reflective of the sad state of liberal theology in the world - faith that is too small (or nonexistent) to accept that Jesus Christ is, at once, True God and True Man.  And, along with comments made by other reappraisers, using the past tense “was” rather than “is”, the implication being that Jesus is not Eternal God, bodily resurrected from the dead and sitting at the right hand of the Father.

So sad.

[84] Posted by Connie Sandlin on 09-06-2007 at 11:50 PM • top

I never cease to be impressed by Mr. Spong’s vicious fanaticism, his closed-minded bigotry, his ignorance of biblical scholarship and academic incompetence, not to mention his lack of cognitive application in the various thing’s I’ve read in the last ten years that are purportedly written by him. This letter is no exception. It is a breathtaking display of ineptitude and moral weakness. The hysterical anger in this letter is almost palpable. Mr. Spong’s disregard of both biblical scholarship should be considered astonishing in anyone called to ordained ministry. That the same man who wrote this was ever entrusted with the responsibilities of a bishop does not reflect favourably on the Church that embraced him, nor do other Churches and institutions recommend themselves by acclaiming his writings and teachings.

PS: As for myself, I must agree with Roland: One of the things I will miss most in the Byzantine Rite is singing Christmas carols. I will never cease to pray for the Anglican Church, “Reasserters” and “Reappraisers” both. May God have mercy on us all.

[85] Posted by Jude Read on 09-07-2007 at 12:01 AM • top

I guess that’s the difference between a modernist liberal and a postmodernist liberal.  +Spong would not attend Lessons & Carols by choice because while he considers himself a Christian, he does not consider himself that kind of Christian.  I once led a Rosh Hashanah service, and I’m not Jewish. 

What’s the point of even being a liberal if you have to be so literalistic, so prudish, as to deprive yourself of human pleasures as basic and innocent as Christmas carols? 

But this is beside the point.  What +Spong is doing is self-promotion; the only difference is that back then being contrarian and doing self-promotion cost him money, while now it makes him money.  I wish him the best, but taking him seriously as a participant in all of this would probably be a mistake.  He has nothing to gain or lose either way, except to whatever extent he generates controversy and to whatever extent that controversy moves copies of Jesus for the Non-Religious, which is now available wherever fine books are sold.

Re the House of Bishops, my understanding is that retired bishops are welcome to attend but they have no vote.

[86] Posted by Tom Head on 09-07-2007 at 12:11 AM • top

We can’t remind ourselves and others too often of John Shelby Spong’s 1998 post-Lambeth interview by Andrew Carey, with its racist elements and blatant reversal of Christian doctrines.  Or possibly someone already re-posted it.  Here is a link, and I’ll also give a few highlights below.  Commentary between quotations is by Andrew Carey.  Is this really the kind of thing the Episcopal Church wants to stand on?

http://www.starcourse.org/spong/interview.html

About African Anglicans:
“They’ve moved out of animism into a very superstitious kind of Christianity. They’ve yet to face the intellectual revolution of Copernicus and Einstein that we’ve had to face in the developing world. That’s just not on their radar screen.”

“Scientific advances have given us a new way of understanding homosexual people. At the Lambeth Conference and in dealing with the Third World this knowledge hasn’t percolated down, and it’s not going to change overnight.”

When I put it to him that Third World bishops might feel belittled and patronised by such remarks, he compared them to the advocates of slavery in the 19th Century - an insult if ever there was one, especially to the African and Caribbean Bishops. “If they feel patronised that’s too bad. I’m not going to cease to be a 20th Century person for fear of offending someone in the Third World” he declared bluntly.

He says: “If humanity is an evolving process into higher consciousness and not a perfect creation that fell away in an act of sin, then the way you interpret the Christ function has got to be radically different. I want the Christ function to enable me to achieve a higher level of consciousness, not to rescue me from the fall. Does that mean that I don’t believe in sin? No that’s to misunderstand. But sin to me is the baggage of evolution.

“You or I have survived four and a half billion years of evolutionary history, and the reason we have survived is that we are radically self-centered people. If the world were reduced to you and me for one last meal one of us would kill the other for that last meal to survive, that is the way the human animal survives historically.

Here is the heart of his belief, that traditional Christian belief is now utterly meaningless to modern people, and so a new Christianity must be invented. Bishop Spong’s reinvention is surprisingly based on an impossible and derided philosophical position, one of progress: that somehow human beings are developing a higher level of consciousness.

Ignoring the evidence of 20th Century history in his optimism, Bishop Spong reduces Christianity to New Age theory, in which the ‘Christ Figure’ calls us to a new level of humanity. Christ accomplished nothing on the cross and was merely closer to the divine than the rest of us.

“The difference between Jesus and you is a matter of degree rather than kind, the same God we meet in Jesus we meet in you. But Jesus is an infinitely fuller degree of what God means. The power of God invites me to be called into a deeper expression of what I am.”

“God cannot be external to ourselves, because to talk about God you may as well look in a mirror. Every human being that describes God will inevitably do so as a human analogy. We recognise that is the best you can do. If horses had Gods they would look like horses. What I am trying to say is that the theistic definition of God no longer identifies with this day and age. God is not a Santa Claus, a miracle worker or a parent figure. He is not going to take care of you or me. You and I have to live our lives as if there is not a God.”

[87] Posted by Paula on 09-07-2007 at 04:46 AM • top

Does anyone know any info on Spong from his tenure in the Diocese of NC (St. Joseph’s Durham in the 50s and Calvary Tarboro in the late 50s and early 60s)?  Just curious.  Feel free to private message me.

[88] Posted by Reason and Revelation on 09-07-2007 at 05:36 AM • top

Lampwick lives.  Hee-haw.

[89] Posted by bigjimintx on 09-07-2007 at 05:40 AM • top

Pure Spong. A master of using the English language to create an emotional response (that supercedes critical thought) in another person.

Yet, another Master of the English language would say, “It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

Ignore the man. He is a dinosaur. Better yet, pray for him. Show him pity.

Going up against him feeds him. Let that part of him starve from lack of attention.

[90] Posted by Ralph on 09-07-2007 at 05:42 AM • top

This is most interesting.  In fact, I’ve spent my entire allotment of blog time this morning just reading the letter and all the comments.

So many Bible verses came to mind, but I guess Bishop Spong wouldn’t countenance any of them.

There was no king in Israel and every man did what was right in his own eyes.

There is a way that seems right unto man, but its end is distruction.

Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven.

Sacntify them in truth; Thy word is truth.

Choose this day whom you shall serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

And, for those who think the sin of Sodom was a lack of hosptality to the strangers who visited Lot:
“In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities surrounding them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as they did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 7

You may remember that Jude is about contending for “the faith once offered for all.”  A short little book - only 25 verses.  Often overlooked.  Talks about apostates and their doom.  I highly recommend reading it.

The final verses: “Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy mixed with fear - hating even the clothing stained by corruption with flesh” make reference to Levetical law regarding (13:48-52) fabric that has been contaminated.  Be mindful - there is a danger to the rescuer here!  Show mercy mixed with fear lest you, too, be come defiled!

Good guidelines for so many people we must deal with.  The way to be safe with that third group is to remember “I know whom I have believed!”

[91] Posted by Anam Cara on 09-07-2007 at 06:14 AM • top

Interesting. This letter gives me hope that the Anglican Communion can be held together in its’ present form and with appropiate disciplinary action taken against TEC and other revisionist branches.  A few more volleys like this, and even a liberal-among-liberals ABC would cut the ties just simply out of spite.

Amazing.  Reminds me a of dear Priest’s story.  He told me once of an “impromptu excorism” he had to perform.  The lady came into his office to ‘set him straight’ on some matter, and she brought two other sisters to perform the biblical commandment of witnesses to his intransigence in the matter (whatever it was).

She was possesed. And, he told me, it took him and the other two sisters to hold her while the exorcism was performed.  He doubted it could have been performed with any less people. 

Got me to thinking.  Was it coincidence that the very number of people present were what was ‘required’ to hold her down for the exorcism?  Or was it a case of Satan and his demons being mere putty in the Lord’s hands and He caused this woman’s demon to want to bring along just the right amount of people (ostensibly for witnesses, but turns out for performing an exorcsim on her)?

I hope that many more revisionists drop their facade and fire off letters like this.  I pray for what is covered to become uncovered, and soon!

[92] Posted by why1914 on 09-07-2007 at 07:17 AM • top

“Does anyone know any info on Spong from his tenure in the Diocese of NC?”

No. But as bishop of Newark, Spong asked a candidate for the priesthood about his sense of mission. The candidate gave an enthusiastic and fairly orthodox answer. Spong replied, “I used to believe that.” One of Spong’s truer statements.

[93] Posted by Irenaeus on 09-07-2007 at 08:54 AM • top

It will be an interesting conversation JSS has at the White Throne Judgement Seat with God.

[94] Posted by mci on 09-07-2007 at 09:05 AM • top

No, not about JSS’s tenure here in NC but he is still revered here by former several +Bps and the current one here who some have said has long term aspirations as a revisionist toward becoming a future TEC PB.  His published and well-promulgated vision of ‘Church’ and our foremost mission is “hospitality”, as is the Holiday Inn’s, we are quick to note.  Be ye forewarned

  a ‘reasserter’ spy in their midst,,

[95] Posted by BCTSpriest on 09-07-2007 at 09:56 AM • top

Someone needs to say to Spong, in response to his remark

our trust in your integrity … all but disappeared…

that he might, perchance, look in the same place he would look for his own Christian witness, which he seems to have misplaced some decades earlier.

Then again, I guess I just did!

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[96] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 09-07-2007 at 12:48 PM • top

Spong’s second “thesis”, as quoted on the the John Mark Ministries web page (linked to by Chris’ post, above) that “… the Christology of the ages is bankrupt,” reminds me of nothing so much as the famous interchange from my youth, to wit:

“<strike>God is dead!” [Nietzsche]</strike>

Nietzsche is dead! [God]

I wonder if that even occurred to the enlightened and intelectual Spong+?

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

It can truly be said to (and /of) Spong, that:
“When you(/he) can keep your(/his) head when all those about you(/him) are losing theirs, you(/he) obviously don’t understand the gravity of the situation!”—[author unknown]

[97] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 09-07-2007 at 01:09 PM • top

John S. “Wormwood” Spong

[98] Posted by Sheep75002 on 09-07-2007 at 02:47 PM • top

Spong is not a Christian and should be ignored.  He is worst than an apostate because he led people astray.  Jesus said “that is better that a millstone be put around your neck and dropped into the sea than to lead these little ones astray.”  Unless he repents and publicly recants his damnable “Theses” et al, he is going to hell.  He should have been deposed long ago.  I will never refer to this “wolf in sheep’s clothing” as a bishop.

[99] Posted by grottokid on 09-08-2007 at 07:54 AM • top

Spong’s definition of Grace: the fact that he continues to be associated with such prejudiced, ignorant, pre-scientific, Biblical people like the ABC.

[100] Posted by DavidSh on 09-08-2007 at 09:18 AM • top

Bible quoting group of people incapable of embracing the world in which we live.

Oh, is THAT what we are supposed to do as Christians? EMBRACE THE WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE?  Gee, I guess I got that all mixed up.

Looks like Jesus did, too. Oh well, let’s forget about Him.  He’s one of those pre-modern, Bible-quoting types.

[101] Posted by selah on 09-08-2007 at 01:25 PM • top

Paula,

Thank you for those quotes from Spong.  I thought the 19th century philosophy asserting that man was continually evolving to higher levels of humanity died with World War I.  A few stalwart types held out until WWII. 

For most of us, the twentieth century proved to us that human nature does not change: we have advanced in technology, but human nature has not changed…unless by changing you mean advancing in our abilities to kill others…in mass numbers.

[102] Posted by selah on 09-08-2007 at 01:36 PM • top

P.S. Baby Blue’s dramatic reading of this letter is a riot. Well worth the time!

As I wrote at BB’s, Spong doesn’t mind being reviled; what he really can’t stand is being laughed at.  Go to Baby Blue’s.  Have a laugh.

[103] Posted by selah on 09-08-2007 at 02:02 PM • top

I agree, Selah, that human progress is an exploded pseudo-scientific Victorian theory that should have collapsed with the twentieth-century wars, Holocaust, and many other shows of the same old human decline from the Fall.  (++Rowan Williams has said all this very well.)  Yes, it seems we are only “advancing in our abilities to kill others…in mass numbers”—further proof of the Fall.  But the “sophisticated” Spong knows nothing of all this.  His general perfectabilian assumption does place him utterly at odds with the Archbishop of Canterbury and with the Christian faith we express in the Creeds and the general confession.
Dr. Paula

[104] Posted by Paula on 09-08-2007 at 02:10 PM • top

Selah, when it comes to the old human “progress” myth, only compare Spong (quoted above) with ++Rowan Williams (quoted below from his sermons):

“The twentieth century has been in full flight from certain conceptions of personal morality, but what age has ever suffered from so acute an awareness of collective responsibility?  Who shall absolve us from the guilt of the Holocaust?  Colonialism?  The Enlightenment? Who could absolve us from the guilt of a nuclear catastrophe?  The appalling moral anxiousness of our age is an oblique recognition that the human being as such waits to hear something . . . from beyond our corporate culture.

“Who is to forgive the camp commandant at Auschwitz, the murderer of a child, the tyrant waging genocidal wars? . . . Christian faith here pushes right against the limits of the credible once again in saying that *God* forgives and has the *right* to forgive.  God is the ultimate victim of all human cruelty, says the gospel: God bleeds for every human wound.  Insasmuch as we do good or ill to any human person, it is done to God.  Forgiveness is not only a matter to be settled among ourselves—or left unsettled because of our inadequacies.  It is God’s affair too.  And the good news of Christianity is that . . . there is beyond all our sin a love that is inexhaustible. . . . The only thing that can keep us out is our refusal to ask for and trust in that mercy.

“And the gospel proclaims all this in virtue of the cross of Jesus.  Without that, we cannot begin to understand the forgiveness of sins.” 

(From Sermons “Advent” and “The Forgiveness of Sins” in the collection *A Ray of Darkness: Sermons and Reflections* by Rowan Williams)

I hope these reflections are not off-topic on this thread.  The comments here sparked me to think further about Spong’s foolish pseudo-Darwinian idea that humans are evolving beyond their old sins—which he has propagated successfully near and far.  The opposite is exactly one of the main grounds on which the Archbishop’s many books and his sermons have stood.  Who could read the Prayer Book and Bible, who could say the Creeds and the confession, otherwise?

[105] Posted by Paula on 09-08-2007 at 02:41 PM • top

Paula,

Thank you for the citations from +Cantuar’s sermons. It pretty well demonstrates that he “gets it,” whereas Spong (and those of his ilk) have fallen directly into the trap of considering themselves “like God.”

It is fairly apparent from the comparison which of the actors in this drama are faithful to Christ’s message, and which are not.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[106] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 09-08-2007 at 09:48 PM • top

I offer you this link to an online image (.jpg) of an antiquated device for grinding up doctrine.

[107] Posted by Unsubscribe on 09-09-2007 at 08:29 AM • top

Bishop Spong, you are a breath of fresh air!
What follows is a letter I recently wrote to the Anglican Primate in Australia:
Dear Archbishop Phillip Aspinall

I am incensed by The Anglican Church’s attitude and what is clear discrimination against a minority on the basis of sexual preference. As a parent who has two boys at Anglican Schools in Brisbane, I have no objection to same sex partners being present at school formals. This is just homophobia and discrimination cleverly justified by calling it another name like standards. Just remember that yours is the same organisation that not to long ago was sheltering paedophiles and forcing the victims through the courts to obtain compensation, fighting them all the way to preserve the church’s wealth.

I was further disturbed to hear a parent at my sons school say this morning “I send my children to an Anglican School so they did not have to associate with people (gay) like that”. I think this statement reveals the real motivation and is closer than you would like to the real issue. These schools are there to provide a service to the community for a fee and not to provide a comfortable environment for xenophobe’s or elitists trying to maintain religious privilege.

It is important to understand that this school is a registered corporation, enjoys the privilege of tax free status and as such is bound by the law like any other corporation or institution. The Anglican Church is not above the law just because they feel they have a religious warrant based on hateful Bronze Age texts provided by some fictitious vindictive sky god who would like these people stoned to death!

This is another example of why the separation of church and state is so vital. The Anti Discrimmination Commissioner said the position they have taken is not lawful and that should be the end of the matter, yet you still arrogantly defend the schools position. Most parents I know sent their children to these schools because the state system is underfunded and failing not for religious indoctrination. They make many sacrifices in order to give their children the best possible start in life.

I admire any 16 year old that has the courage to be open and honest about their sexuality rather than adopt a false persona for the benefit of the homophobic Christ-psychotics. They are after all born that way. They are not diseased or mentally ill. It is a natural way of being for about 5% to 10% of the community.

Maybe its time that Separation of Church and state was enshrined in our constitution in Australia. Maybe you should also loose your tax free status if they refuse to comply with the law and or community standards!

[108] Posted by Aussiesteve on 04-15-2008 at 09:05 PM • top

It seems that most of the adjectives, metaphor, sarcasm and satire have pretty much been used up here [thanks for the great reads, all!].
I just read with amazement, mouth agape, at the continued self delusion that this man operates under. Spong reminds me of a man in a toboggan, barreling down the side of a snow covered mountain which drops off into a 1,000 foot abyss-and rather than seeking a way OUT of his dire predicament, he seems to be hell-bent on trying to pick up speed!

[109] Posted by Bob K. on 04-15-2008 at 10:02 PM • top

John Shelby Spong abandoned the Faith many years ago.

[110] Posted by Betty See on 04-15-2008 at 10:14 PM • top

Aussiesteve,
Please beam back up to whatever unitarian psuedo churched planet you came from and go with God (the fictitious vindictive sky god one).
AP+

[111] Posted by Anglican Paplist on 04-16-2008 at 07:36 AM • top

Anglican Paplist: I think the best thing to do with a comment like yours is not to argue with you but rather just underline what you have writen. I could not have illistrated my point better, especially if I were you!Just remember that when you are about to stone your children to death at the city gates for answering you back, maybe somethings in the bible cannot be taken literally. The bible is man writen not god writen. What did you think happened? Did God parachute the completed text to someone? I think not! You are welcome to continue in your Bronze age thinking but I firmly believe it is better to accept the truth. I bet you are still under the impression that the world is not round and at the centre of the universe!

[112] Posted by Aussiesteve on 04-16-2008 at 04:33 PM • top

Hey, a revification of the bright sixth-former’s letter to the ABC reminding us all of the outstanding qualities of JSS…petulance, victimhood, and asininity.  Just when the last HOB debacle is revivified by the poll results publication.  And some people say God has no sense of humour!

But the use of the Kinsey numbers, long discredited, is icing on the cake!

God is good.

[113] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 04-16-2008 at 04:58 PM • top

This from +++Williams’ response to the 12 Theses:

The doctrine of the incarnation does not claim that the ‘theistic’ God (i.e. a divine individual living outside the universe) turns himself into a member of the human race, but that this human identity, Jesus of Nazareth, is at every moment, from conception onwards, related in such a way to God the Word (God’s eternal self-bestowing and self-reflecting) that his life is unreservedly and uniquely a medium for the unconstrained love that made all things to be at work in the world to remake all things.

I don’t know if I can go along with this understanding of the Incarnation but perhaps I need to think about it more.  It seems like it could be a special form of Adoptionism (at conception).  Granted, I would say along with the Church, begotten not made rather than “turned himself into”.  Maybe it’s not so bad but there is more that needs be said.

[114] Posted by monologistos on 04-16-2008 at 05:12 PM • top

#114-the ABC’s response does seem to be [not surprisingly] a bit wordy and not especially clear. I think the incarnation is pretty well spelled out by the apostles, especially in the first chapter of Johns gospel, 2 Cor. 5:19, and Philippians ch. 2. Namely, the 2nd Person of the Trinity left His heavenly abode, took upon Him human flesh at His incarnation, suffered humiliation & crucifixion as payment for the penalty for sin, and as the resurrected God-Man, been received back up to His heavenly throne of glory. Perhaps the ABC just needs to get back to the ABC’s [?].

[115] Posted by Bob K. on 04-16-2008 at 05:51 PM • top

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