Christ First Among Many Holy People

Ever wondered why the date of easter is tied to the moon cycles? Or why Christmas is close to the winter solstice? Or why All Saints falls near the end of harvest? Oh, where does that advent wreth thingy come from? Or Christmas Trees?

It certainly wasn’t because the early european christian were adapting to local tradiation. Nah, couldn’t be.

Surely, it couldn’t have been an effort by the Christian church to provide new converts with a way to worship Christ during a time they may have been tempted to join in a pagan ritual?

“This has to be done by someone who is at home with both traditions. Otherwise we will end up with a mishmash.”

I think employing medicine men, chants and elements of a Navajo blessing ceremony into an episcopal consecration is the very definition of a “mishmash.”

I thought “holy” meant “set apart,” not “inextricably and incongruously mingled.”

Plainsparson, at the risk of insulting/embarrassing you, your sarcastic and poorly-informed attempt to defend TEC’s capitulation to and being swallowed by the surrounding culture (still run by the current prince of this world) begs a rebuttal.  I wouldn’t dream of turning it down!

The LORD gave the Israelites the Passover sacrifice as yet another type and shadow of the final and truly effective sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ.  From the animals the LORD sacrificed to provide skins to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve to the animal sacrifices before the Law was given, through Isaac being spared at the last possible moment by the LORD who asked that he be offered up instead providing Himself a ram, through all the centuries of Temple sacrifices, all pointed not to the moon cycles or the pagan rituals associated with them (forbidden to Israel on every high place and under every green tree), but to Jesus, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world, sacrificed at Passover.  Even Caiaphas unwittingly affirmed Jesus’ role, saying it was expedient that one man die for all the people rather than all the people perish.

As for the timing of Easter coordinated with the moon cycles:  Of course it is!  In fulfillment of Scripture and Jesus being the final Passover sacrifice, the first Easter took place after Passover.  To set a date for Easter or any other occasion, we place it in a certain “month”, which necessarily for the ancients was defined by the phases of the moon, the new moon starting a new month and the mid-month being at full moon.  Passover’s timing each year is given by the LORD in Exodus 12:1-3, 6
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Now the LORD said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, “This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year to you.  Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, ‘On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers’ households, a lamb for each household. ... And you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of Israel is to kill it at twilight.’ “
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As for your points about the timing of the celebration of Christmas and using wreaths and trees, these were not adapting to local tradition but rather, as Jackie said above, taking pagan rituals captive and transforming them for Christ, to give recent pagan converts a true object of worship, Jesus, to snatch the devil’s celebrations away and set a table for Christians in the sight of their foes.  They were hugely successful, except for the commercialism of Christmas that threatens to replace Christ with Mammon.  Who now associates wreaths and Christmas trees with the pagan idols?  Anyone, anyone?  I thought so.

Maybe the churches you attend celebrate All Saints day or All Souls day with a Samhain ritual (I’m sure you can get one from Oakwyse/Fr. Bill Melnyck), but the Lord has kept that particular blasphemy and perversion from any church I’ve been to.  There is no accounting for pop culture and its fascination with the occult and the resultant mushrooming of Halloween parties, haunted houses and the like, but they don’t (or shouldn’t!) inform or penetrate Christian church services that recognize the faithful departed and acknowledge our own mortality and dependence on Jesus for salvation and being made fit to stand in the final judgment.  For a concise and probably accurate summary of the origins of All Saints day, Wikipedia does a fair job: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints’_Day

Plainsparson, you and I and all of us will, by our thoughts, words and deeds, choose this and every day who we will serve, and we will give our answer to the question of the ages, that will determine our eternal destiny, asked by Jesus: “Who do you say that I am?”

The Episcopal Church has a long history of adapting, he points out. He mentions the Nicene Convention.

ECUSA adapted the Nicene Creed to what?

Quite simple. ECUSA adapted the Nicene Creed by adding the option to remain silent when certain of its words were said.

from the Briar Patch,

Somehow that one had passed me by, Br’er Rabbit. I hope they don’t mind, then, if under the cover of other voices, I say, “I believe” instead of “we believe” - since I don’t have any idea what those other folks believe.

If you read the story, this is obviously a holy man who had given his life ministering among Indians. 

I have spent a lot of time with Indians.  They have an entirely different understanding of the universe that white western thinking folks like you and I would regard as pagan, and they have a profound distrust for things regarded as “white”.  A lot of ethinic cleansing was done towards them in the name of God.  It probably took Fr. Corbett a long time for them to trust him.

The fact is, God is big enough to penetrate their culture and make them aware of the fact that Jesus is indeed his only begotten Son, slain for the forgiveness of sin for all mankind.  It has happened and it does happened, in no small part due to the care of folks like Fr. Corbett. 

God is big enough to get beyond the fact that some of Fr. Corbett’s theology may be faulty, because he is dedicating his life to making a difference.  He has certainly been able to overcome it in my life.

Milton -

Re: Adapting

Well said.

I would just add this to plainsparson -

“Be not transformed to this world, but be transformed by renewing your mind in Jesus Christ”

Christians are to be light - not try to smother it so it doesn’t bother those in hanging about in darkness.

conformed to this world…

sigh, never try to remember Scripture without two cups of coffee when you are sick…

The “Nicene Convention?”  What the heck is that?  And what does it have to do with Episcopalianism?

It’s one of the Big Three: the Apostolic, the Nicene, and the General Convention.

  ECUSA adapted the Nicene Creed by adding the option to remain silent when certain of its words were said.

Nicea meets Miranda?

Did they fall in love and live happily ever after or was it just another country western song?

RE: “It’s one of the Big Three: the Apostolic, the Nicene, and the General Convention.”

Heh.

Heh heh.

Mr.Dupree said:

God is big enough to get beyond the fact that some of Fr. Corbett’s theology may be faulty, because he is dedicating his life to making a difference.  He has certainly been able to overcome it in my life.

God certainly is big enough to overcome our errors - good thing, as none of us understands the Truth perfectly, however, passionate sincerity can in no way overcome false doctrine.  People dedicate their lives to all kinds of things….  One could sincerely lead a lot of people over a very tall precipice.

I have nothing against Christianity being practiced in the context of any culture-as long as NONE of the truths of Scripture are violated or subordinated.

Seriously, the church has done this for centuries.  You should see Holy Week in Guatemala.  So long as the basics get through, what is the harm?

As a boy in Colorado, I had some contact with Navajo spirituality. Also have a very good friend who was a Catholic missionary to them. Their creation myths are interesting, but confusing to non-Navajos. What I liked most about their spirituality is the concept that each person be in balance, harmony, with the rest of creation. Navajos before Anglo law intervened would even forgive murder if the perp restored harmony to the family of the victim. Same with theft. To this day I pray to be “restored to harmony” when tempted or having sinned. Works for me. 

My missionary friend tells me they were the most courteous people on earth, even agreeing to “conversion” so as to not offend the young missionary. Of course, they had no intention of abandoning their cultural faith system. Just being nice. He says he learned way more from them than he communicated to them.

Knew a bunch of Utes from the same area. Great sense of humor, practical jokers. I’ve got some stories you wouldn’t believe. Stuff they’ve done to whites. One I was involved in featured a septic tank drainfield, 2000 bucks, a California liberal psychologist, and ended with everyone getting drunk at the SunnyDale bar.

Some other time.

Pilgrim:

1.  I think the celebrating in Central/South America to border - if not fall off the side of - heresy.  It’s just plain weird stuff… and has little to do with Christmas or Christ’s birth.  It’s one of the reasons I cannot be a Catholic - as much as I love my brothers and sisters in the Faith - I theologically can’t see the point of carrying Mary statues around.

2.  The point is not honoring Native American culture - it’s combining naturalistic spirituality with Christianity.  God has NEVER liked that - go ask the Jews in the OT - a little Ashrah pole here - a little sacrifice on high places there - didn’t fly then, doesn’t fly now.  “I the Lord am One God and you shall have no other Gods (or Holy People) before me”.

3.  You can honor Native American culture appropriately w/o destroying the Gospel.  We have a church in Montana - St. Ignatius - where there is a picture of Mary and Jesus as Native Americans.  I personally think that’s cool - the whole chapel is cool.  The Catholic priests there could honor the traditions of the Salish, Kootenia, and Kalispell without making Christ ‘one of many incarnations’.  God IS God - Christ died for our sins - Coyote did NOT - that is the principle point.

Well, carrying Mary around with love and devotion isn’t all that much weirder than playing my faith is better than your faith on a computer, IMHO.

Pilgrim, I dont think that its about “playing my faith is better than your faith.” Its about the truth, and the subject of what is eternally true vis-a-vis what is false is an all important, constant theme throughout Scripture. John chapter 4 (the “woman at the well” account) is a case in point. Jesus, being the Truth incarnate, directed the conversation towards Himself, and never demeaned her heritage as a Samaritan-something which stunned her a bit (v. 9). Nevertheless, when she tried to bring Jesus “up to speed” as to what true Scriptural worship was according to her Samaritan heritage, He made sure to correct her where she was wrong (v. 22), even while letting her know that a new covenant was soon to come. Then, Christ said plainly, “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers. God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.” (John 4:23,24). Sincere devotion is lovely, but sincereity itself, in Gods eyes, does not suffice. One can be sincerely wrong, like the woman at the well was-Jesus loved her, and was gentle with her, but corrected her sincerely held error. My wife is of Native American heritage, and has a connection with nature and the symbolic which she combines with her Spirit filled worship which I greatly admire, though its something that I cannot fully COMPREHEND. As much as I love Gods creation, I am not American Indian; I do not have the same kind of connection with nature that she’s inhereted. But having said that, she has NEVER allowed anything contrary to Scripture to take place in her worship. I cant speak for Eclipse, but I’ll guess thats what he was trying to get across.

Well, carrying images around is a very old European custom.  The Spanish brought it to the New World.  Sitting on the floor of the cathedral burning copal incense and candles is more Mayan.  But I am not going to try and tell them their Easter offering is less valuable than my prayers or vigil.  It is all to the same end, so far as I can see.

Or why Christmas is close to the winter solstice?

Coincidence.  The celebration of the Nativity of Our Lord on December 25 probably has nothing to do with the pagan festivities surrounding the solstice, or the Roman festival of the Nativity of the Invincible Sun.  See the work of Thomas Talley, long a professor of liturgics at General Seminary, on this point (who builds on the work of early 20th century French liturgical theologians and historians).

In fact, Talley suggests that December 25 as a festival of the Savior’s birth was actually taken over by the pagan Romans from the Christians.

If you don’t have access to a copy of Talley’s Origins of the Liturgical Year, an instructive essay written by our good friend Dr William Tighe, is here:
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

As to taking over pagan customs, even pagan holy sites (cf Pope Gregory the Great’s letter to Augustine of Canterbury), of course this has happened.  Grace doesn’t destroy nature, it perfects it.  But the catholic Church has been careful not to become syncretic when it adapts previously-held customs.  What this Episcopal priest in Navajoland encourages is syncretism.

Oh, and that “Nicene Convention” business.  Would be interesting to know where that came from, whether the journalist for the Deseret News or from the priest.  Of course, it would comport with the view of some reappraisers that no Church council has any authority greater than the General Convention of The Episcopal Church.

(The capitals are all to be taken very, very seriously.)

And you bring up good points. But what is the dividing line between what is acceptable to God or not? I would contend that whatever Scripture prohibits is what we should not permit in personal/public devotions. Burning candles and incense? I dont see that forbidden in Scripture. Images of any kind are a different story. Wherever and in whatever context, images in close conjunction with worship is always discouraged throughout the Bible. Even the most sacred object ever made involving worship sanctioned and commissioned by God Himself, the Ark of the Covenant, was discouraged to be used as an object that could be used to gain power and advantage, or even handled in such a matter except what-and how-God had specifically instructed in the Law. As much as Aarons rod, the Ark, or censors of incense used by the Levitical Priests were most sacred objects, they were not to be used as objects of veneration, or in any way other than specifically ordered by God in the course of mans worship to Yahweh. Even a sacred object like the brasen serpent, an object that God Himself told Moses to construct in order to shield the people from His own wrath, was destroyed by the godly King Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:3,4) because “until those days the sons of Israel burned incernse to it..”. As to even the making of images themselves-I wont go there now, but suffice to say that there is PLENTY said about that in Scripture. To sum up-cultural style, in and of itself, does not determine what is acceptable worship or not. Gods Word does.

Well, it has been debated for centuries.  Cromwell’s mobs smashed the stained glass and statuary to purify the churches.  Thomas Merton was quite moved by the images of saints dressed and bedecked in the Italian churches.  One Christian’s icon is another Christian’s abomination.  There is nothing new under the sun.

Plainsparson, Tom Dupree, with all due respect I think you’re oversimplifying, even though you have a valid point. 1 Co 9:19-22 has boundaries.

“That’s why Father Corbett has learned Navajo prayers ... [he] prays in English to the four directions. “
“Father Corbett told a previous bishop that he thought the Navajo would always see Christ as first among many Holy People.”

Someone needs to put a hand on his shoulder and say, “You can’t evade sharing the Gospel. With only a year left, you ought to be willing to risk your friendship to share the truth. Your praying to their gods and accepting their interpretation of Jesus as just another ‘holy one’ is doing them a disservice. You’ve got to overcome your fear for their sake.”

“There is nothing new under the sun.”  Quite true. And the same Spirit teaches this: “The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”

For the Dineh, the name in their language for the people, their language, culture and mythology are intertwined as one people. They are also a matriarchal society, traditionally a nomadic people living in clans.

The novelist Tony Hillerman has done a good job of presenting their culture and PBS has made movies of several of his books that are well worth watching.

I was vicar at St. George’s, Holbrook and rector at St. Paul’s, Winslow during the time of the making of Steven Plummer a deacon and his ordination as a priest. Fr. Liebler truly won the love and respect of the Navajo elders.

Steven the grandson of one of the most respected healers in Navajoland, and another young man were chosen by them to get the education and formation to become Episcopal priests. Deacon Steven’s ordination as priest took place on the overlook above Spider Rock. Some of you will remember that tall red rock spire from the Gregory Pack movie, “Mckenna’s Gold.”

A serendipity on the occasion was the Rev. Claxton Munro, rector of St. Steven’s(?), Houston and author of “Witnessing Laymen Make Living Churches” and one of Sam Shoemaker’s boys was on vacation and just happened to be there that morning to see this famous place. I had an extra red stole in my bag and Claxton joined us in laying on hands as Bp. Harte did the ordaining.

It was my privilege to be the 1st Anglo to second the motion to cede that part of Navajoland in the Diocese of AZ to the Navajo Area Mission that was formed in ‘77. Only the Rio Grande refused to do that and I believe that rejection was a mistake. It divided the people and these people react very negatively to anything that takes away their balance.

On the day of Steven’s consecration in Window Rock as bishop to serve the Dineh, it rained a soft feminine rain. A similar sign for the Dineh was such a rain that occurred during the end of Holy Week and taking the sand painting of Fr. Liebler away ‘into the heavens,” as I was told the story.

Bp. Mark MacDonald. a former vicar at Good Shepherd, Ft. Defiance -the capitol of the Navajo Nation- is now both bishop of the Navajo Area Mission and Bishop of all indigenous peoples in the Anglican Church of Canada.

The loss of their language by the children is one of the major problems that the Church is addressing. The Franciscans have given decades of effective ministry in Navajoland and are credited with the creation of the written language and dictionary.

Part of my heart is still in Navajoland.

Wait a minute!  What is all this about changing the creeds?  Who gave permission to change I believe to we believe?  The version I was taught began with “Credooooooooo…”  Shesssh,  I can’t turn my back for one minute without…....

Pilgrim:

Paul actually does a great job on these human celebrations of ours Romans 14:  “One man esteems one day above all the others, another man every day alike - but whether he does or does not, IT IS THE GLORY OF THE LORD, that matters.”

I think it intriguing that the only thing you could comment on was the Mary statue wandering - of which, I already stated that while I respect my brothers and sisters - I can’t theologically buy into it.  I have good friends who are Catholic - I just can’t be one myself.

Conveniently you side-step the real issue is that REAL Christians don’t water down their REAL Faith.  That’s the major point here. 

Culture does not matter - Jesus does. 

Believing that Christ died, rose again, and will come again - that HE is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and the LIFE - is the sole and only point.  It’s the reason we are on the planet.  It’s the reason to waste time typing on a computer, interacting with others, to breathe. 

Gal 2:20

Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ

This is the message that is lost when Christ becomes ‘one of many holy people’

It certainly wasn’t because the early european christian were adapting to local tradiation. Nah, couldn’t be.

Heh.

Easter Bunny Pistol Grips 
by Greg Keeler

“I’ll take that one,”
said Coyote, pointing
to a shirt with Easter
bunnies all over it.
“Good choice,” said
Badger. “That’s our new
designer model. Bunnies
are really big these days.”
Coyote looked around
the room, and sure enough,
there were watches with
bunnies pointing out the
time, chrome plated revolvers
with bunnies etched on the
grips, even little Bibles
with bunnies and Easter eggs
stamped in gold on the bindings.
Coyote almost bought a Bible
when he saw the part about
Easter, but he put it back
when he realized that
they had left out the bunny.

http://www.troutball.com/coyote/coyote8.htm

CindyT.:

I guess I better make sure I get my theology perfect before I start sharing with this guy next to me.

Remember when Paul said I don’t care if he’s with me or Apollos, just as long as the gospel gets shared. 

Personally, I cast my vote with the guy who tries and maybe gets it wrong than the one who never tries.  It is true in business, it’s also true in sports, and it is true with the sharing of the gospel.  God looks at the heart and the desire of the heart if it is to please him and sometimes works despite us.

I admire sombody who takes on the task of ministering to Indians.  They have been the most problematical group in the history of this country, and in no small part because of their natural cantankerousness!

This is not to excuse clinging to error when one has been shown the truth and refuses to turn away from error.

What seems to be a possibility is that we move away from error ridden Episcopal practice to nice neat African Anglicanism packaged for American consumption.  We’ll settle in suburban neighborhoods where most of us white folks on this blog hang out and quit ministering to marginal people altogether.

If we can’t get in there and minister to the odd folks of this world BETTER than the Piskies did then we have got a problem!  Because as Christians we are ALL ODD, and that means our theology will get screwed up sometimes.  It is the risk we run by being in the world. 

If we stay on our knees with our hearts toward God, by His grace, we will stay close to Him!

Christians have struggled through the ages over how much to accept from non-Christian cultural tradition, sometimes reaching different conclusions. Western Christendom largely kept the old names for days of the week, whereas (as I recall) the Orthodox Church adopted new names. Both East and West built on pagan names for God.  Pope Gregory instructed Augustine, missionary to the Anglo-Saxons, to smash pagan idols but to preserve pagan temples, sprinkle them with holy water, and turn them into churches. African churches baptize polygamist converts but exclude them from leadership and prohibit Christians from contracting polygamous marriages.

On the other hand, Calvinists and Quakers rejected many of these accommodations (e.g., Christmas). The RCC ultimately forbade 17th century Jesuit missionaries to refer to God using the traditional Chinese “Shang Ti” (Emperor Above; Lord of Heaven). Nineteenth century Western missionaries sometimes went to far in propagating Western culture and norms.

But in deciding what to accommodate in traditional culture and where to draw the line, Christian leaders through the centuries have done a more thoughtful, faithful, and principled job than they usually get credit for. And unlike some of ECUSA’s ruling reappraisers, they were not ashamed of the gospel.

Tom said:  “I guess I better make sure I get my theology perfect before I start sharing with this guy next to me.
Remember when Paul said I don’t care if he’s with me or Apollos, just as long as the gospel gets shared.”

Well, you’d better get the core principles right or you’re not with either Apollos or Paul.  It’s true that we aren’t perfect, as I said, and it’s critical that we get off our duffs and do something!  In fact, it’s true that most of us stand accused of not doing enough, rather than doing something a little “off.”  One of my favorite exhortations is that God can’t steer a parked car, and that if we ever want him to direct us, we have to at least get the transmission out of “Park.”  But it’s a long way from “God can even use an imperfect minister,” to, “hey, who cares if he’s way off—at least he’s sincere.”  C.S. Lewis asserted that if you’re off, even a little, that the fastest way right is to turn around and go back to the point of deviation, rather than pressing on with more enthusiasm.

I happen to be of Native American lineage and know that there are a) lots of people working very hard in self-sacrifice to help improve the lot and lifestyle of this people-group, and b) lots of people working very hard to shellac a Christian veneer onto a pagan belief system in order to remain PC.  It is the second strategy to which I object.

I also spent about 5 years in Hawaii, where there are probably more ethnicities and spiritualities per square mile than anywhere else in the US.  Christianity is not popular and the Episcopal church is less than a shining light for the Gospel there.  The ecclesiastical leadership does not believe that the Gospel of Jesus is superior (Truth) to the other belief systems so they do not assert that claim or try in any way to convert pagans or athiests.  Let’s just say that Rev. Redding of Seattle would feel very comfortable in that environment of morphing/melding/combo religions.

At some point we have to decide if Jesus is the way, truth, life and whether or not we can trust Him to be compelling enough to “save” someone of another faith.  People who feel strongly about their “religion” are hard to approach with the idea that they may be mistaken and that your “brand” is better.  We’d better be pretty convinced ourselves or we’ll look pretty foolish trying to persuade someone else!

Do we believe that Jesus is the only answer for our perishing world and its people, or do we fear the most loathesome epithet: Imperialist?

There is one factor we need to consider in contextualizing the gospel to the group we are dealing with and that is the matter of original revelation.  In the beginning all men had very good knowledge of what had happened.  That accounts for nearly all religions having creation epics, catastrophe, evil, future end times, sacrifice, and even idols show a distorted idea about the living God.  Mankind then deteriorated and embeleshed and distorted this truth.  God takes one of these nations and uses them and prophets like Moses to re-establish the pure truth.  We must continually fight against entropy.  Supressing the truth is a human fallen talent.  There is also the matter of the law written on the heart.  Man knows more than he would like to admit.  In our witnessing we often can use this embeded ideas of truth that the HolySpirit brings to light.  A biblical example among others is Paul at Mars Hill.  As Francis Schaeffer says, we need to make out beach head at what ever point we are the closest to the unbeliever.

Cindy T:

As the “brothers” say, I hear where you’re comin’ from!

Thank you Cindy T.
Very, very well stated!!!
One of the reasons why the missionaries (particularly those who went to the African and Asian natives) were very successful (considering the odds against them) was the missionaries’ clear understanding and teaching of who Christ is and what other religions were (are) not.  Before the advent of the Christians missionaries, every tribe, native people, and every culture (the world over) had some religion.

The success of Christianity came from the clarity and the directness of the Christian message: Christ, ONLY, is the Saviour.

If any Christian lacks the conviction or/and the courage to proclaim Christ as He is, that Christian needs to shut up or find something else to do for Christ and the Church - maybe pick some trash after the Church picnic or something.

One of the most glaring unChristian and liturgically horrible thing that breaks my heart (to this day) is the fact that at her investiture, Schori had some Native American medicine men dancing and incensing the High Altar of the National Cathedral at the start of the investiture last November.

Spiro

They are also a matriarchal society,

No, they are a matrilineal society. If they were matriarchal, the Respected Elders would probably be majority female, and they would have a long tradition of female tribal chiefs. Do they?

Not to my knowledge. AFAIK, there are plenty of matrilineal societies in world history—in which families are, quite sensibly, traced through the female line because it’s a lot easier to confirm maternity than paternity—but the matriarchal ones can be counted on the fingers of one hand, with five fingers left over. The mythical Amazons excepted, of course.