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Welcome to Stand Firm!

Press Conference with the Archbishop of Canterbury, Presiding Bishop et al (Corrected text)

Friday, September 21, 2007 • 12:16 pm


I am sitting next to a power supply in a rapidly filling conference room waiting on the arrival of Anglican dignitaries. Here is Ms Neva Fox’s summary preview of the Conference sent via email:

Today’s news conference with Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori will be held following the conclusion of discussions with the House of Bishops scheduled for approximately 12:30 pm.

Also in the news conference will be Bishop Charles Jenkins of the Diocese of Louisiana, Bishop Duncan Gray of Mississippi, and Bishop Suffragan Catherine Roskam of New York.

The news conference will be held in the Cabildo room.

The room set aside was apparently deemed too small to hold the press gaggle currently gathering.

I know Kevin Kallsen is going to live stream the conference, but I’ll live blog it too for those with slower connections. The initial text will be unedited and live (not memorex…not word for word). The edited text will be more complete but still not a word for word transcript. I do my best to get complete and accurate quotes and phrases and succeed somewhat but, again, a live-blog is not a word for word record.

You will be able to read it all here as it happens, so stay tuned…

KJS will open the conference:

KJS: Good afternoon. We are in the midst of the 2nd day of the HOB meeting. We’ve had a number of visitors from the Anglican Communion who represent the ACC and the PSC and we have had the pleasure of the ABC’s company. We have had stimulating and provocative discussion. We will continue to meet here together after the ABC departs. We will reconvene in plenary to frame a response to this discussion. It has been a privileged to meet and have the ABC’s physical presence. That has been important to our consideration of the issues that lie before us.

ABC: OPENING REMARKS
I and the other members of the Joint Stadning Committee were very glad to accept the invitation of the Presiding Bishop to join the House of Bishops for part of this session.

One of the greatest privileges of being here has been the chance to see something of quite outstanding work being done by the Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta in the ongoing work of social reconstruction in a city still deeply scarred by the devastation of Hurricane Katrina two years ago. I was able to visit a project yesterday in the lower 9th Ward and to see the wonderfully committed and vibrant new church community that has sprung up into being around the construction work. This new Church of All Souls has come into being as a direct result of the sacrificial generosity if the Episcopal Church in this city and its work with those who have suffered most, and it should be an inspiration to the entire communion.

It has been a valuable opportunity to listen carefully to the thinking of the bishops here on the problems that face the Communion; and also for us to share with the House some perspectives from elsewhere in the Communion. I think that in light of the conversations we have come to a better understanding of the House in response to the questions and proposals of the Dar Es Salaam Primates’ Meeting. I hope that the House, equally, has understood more fully what those questions an proposals were meant to achieve. The House will continue to reflect on them over the weekend.

Despite what has been claimed there is no “ultimatum” involved. The Primates asked for a response by 30 September simply because we were aware that this was the meeting of the House likely to be formulating such a response. The ACC and Primates Joint Standing Committee will be reading and digesting what the Bishops have to say, and shall let me know their thoughts on it early next week. After this I shall be sharing what they say, along with my own assessments, with the Primates and others, inviting their advice in the next couple of weeks. I hope these days will result in a constructive and fresh way forward for all of us.

end


Gray: We have spoken in candor and charity. Now we move ahead. I look forward to interpreting our conversation over the last few days in the context of mission. I thank the planning committee for the design of this conference.

Jenkins: There is no such thing as spare people. There are no throw away lives. That is what we are struggling with as a communion and what we have struggled with in LA. That is what we are struggling with in mission. If I could get a word across it would be that we in this church stand for the dignity of humanity. Most of you have not stood in food lines or had to relieve yourself on a stairway with 100 other people in the Superdome. We do say that there is a god-given dignity in everyone. All of us stand strongly for all of God’s people.

Roskam: I have been happy to have our guests. It was good to have the conversation that we have had. It was challenging and honest. We need time to digest and continue the conversation. I am glad that this meeting is happening. My brother bishops have demonstrated the desire to stay together across the divide. I think we all share the call to mission and our baptismal vow to respect the dignity of every human being. I appreciate this fellowship at this time.

Questions:

Bates: ABC, have you learned anything new that you did not know before about the TEC?

ABC: yes, I have a clearer understanding of the polity of TEC and some of the assumptions that the bishops of the TEC make about the Church and its polity. Some have spoken to me about the baptismal covenant, as it works here, its importance, and how the concepts they take from the covenant make it easier to come to conclusions here that others cannot come too world-wide.

Question: Why stay together?

ABC: It would be an admission of defeat if we were to break apart. It could happen but God forbid that we cannot work together through these issues. The need we have for each other is very deep. I think the churches elsewhere need the experiences of the older churches and the older churches need the younger churches. We are not yet at the point where we are ready to admit defeat

Reuters: Do you see any kind of compromise in your response to the DES requests

KJS: we have already begun to make responses and I expect that over the weekend and in our plenary we will continue our response and hope to have a fill one by the end of the meeting

Question: How encouraged are you by what you saw here?

ABC: I was particularly moved by the diocese of Louisiana and their efforts at reconstruction. I am also encouraged by the patience of the bishops here and that we have been able to continue talking and listening.

Virtue: You have been asked to postpone the Lambeth Conference, in particular by the Archbishop of Nigeria. What do you say to this suggestion?

ABC: It is not only from their quarter, others have asked the same. I am not persuaded. I am not sure that we could ever define what an adequate “cooling off period” could look like. I do not want the next years spent in anxiety about when and whether Lambeth will occur. I feel the need to keep faith with the conference planners and with those across the communion for whom the regular meeting is a matter of nourishment and growth…particularly the smaller provinces that should not be held hostage by the political maneuvers of the larger ones.

I have said to Archbishop Akinola that I feel meeting at lambeth is a necessary meeting and it is the cross we are called to bear in order to see the resurrection at the other side however difficult it is for those involved.

Question: What is your assessment of the current unity of the Communion in light of this meeting?

ABC: I do not think this day and a half has made much of a difference. I think it will depend on what emerges by the end of the meeting. While some strong words have been exchanged, I have been struck by the desire to stay together I have seen here.

Integrity: What word of hope do you have for the GLBT baptized?

ABC: I would hope that a gay or lesbian person who would want to be a Christian would want affirmation and challenge and would want to be challenged as to what is the way to live life as a follower of Christ.  I hope we are clarifying the belief that is being and has been expressed in a number of conferences that violence against gay and lesbian people is inexcusable.

Certainly gay and lesbian people have a place in the church as do all the baptised. The debate is currently about the appropriate limits of pastoral care and the place gay and lesbian people may hold in the offices of the church. The question is how far the traditional theology of the church lets us move in that direction.

Kevin Kallsen: Is healing available to those with homosexual inclinations?

ABC: That question presupposes that homosexual inclination is a disease. I do not assume that myself.

NYT: Archbishop. The address that +Anis gave the HOB today states in clear terms what some primates expect. I wanted to ask how reflective that message is of what came out of DES. Do you sense any room for compromise on the Communion side?

ABC: The primates said the DES is the place to start. Some would give a more robust interpretation some less. That is the nature of a communiqué with common language. It has been represented sadly as a set of demands and deadlines. It was not that way. We are inevitably in a position of compromise. It would be a mistake to see DES as questions that must be answered without room for maneuver.

Conger: what is the good of the Anglican Communion?

ABC: The glory of Anglicanism is to have a Christian body united by a common faith but without centralized authority. (More but I could not follow)

Question: Isn’t this in large part about money? If the US church did not want to hold on to the property of the US conservative congregations, they would let them go. If the rest of the Communion did not need US money would it not recognize a second province for the conservatives? Isn’t this about money?

ABC: NO, if all of those factors were taken away there would still be the various difficulties we face theologically. This is not about money.

Mary Ailes: one thing we have heard often is that we are free to go but we have to leave the buildings behind. Some hear that as: We have no need of you but we need your buildings What would you say to those who want to be Anglican but cannot in good conscience remain Episcopalian?

ABC: Start by looking for arrangements and situations within what is there because grace is given through even hopeless places. Isn’t God’s grace still given sacramentally in the Episcopal Church? I would be slow to look for solutions elsewhere.

It is distressing to see the levels of litigation. I would hope and pray that there is a possibility of stopping this from being dragged through the courts interminably.

ENS: There have been interventions throughout the Episcopal Church Does this trouble you?

ABC: yes, there is a long history of unease about this in the Church. I would really, really prefer and hope to work for a local solution. My predecessor would not recognize illicit bishops I find myself in the same difficulty. More interventions make it difficult to find viable solutions.

end


74 Comments • Print-friendlyPrint-friendly w/commentsShare on Facebook
Comments:

I’m all eyes.

[1] Posted by Bob Maxwell+ on 09-21-2007 at 11:31 AM • top

Thanks, Matt.  God bless you!

[2] Posted by owshf on 09-21-2007 at 11:36 AM • top

If they take questions, ask the PB about her reaction Archbishop Anis speech.  Be especially specific in the question, too!

[3] Posted by Justin Martyr on 09-21-2007 at 11:37 AM • top

Better yet, ask David Virture to ask about Archibishop Anis’ speech and then sit back and blog her response.

[4] Posted by Justin Martyr on 09-21-2007 at 11:38 AM • top

Ground control to Major Matt+...hello…anything?
Must have lost his connection…. :(

[5] Posted by Rocks on 09-21-2007 at 12:00 PM • top

ABC said: 

“There is no ultimatum. We asked for a deadline simply because we knew that this HOB meeting was coming up and would be a good chance to formulate a response.”

No ultimatum????  Is he really saying this is just another step in a veeeeery long process of listening?

[6] Posted by Bill C on 09-21-2007 at 12:03 PM • top

The question about the money came from a Reuters guy… didn’t catch the name

[7] Posted by Anna Howard on 09-21-2007 at 12:11 PM • top

For future reference, can someone tell me how to access the live video stream?  I didn’t see where to do that?  THX

[8] Posted by Janet5 on 09-21-2007 at 12:12 PM • top

Where did that bus come from, and why were the orthodox just thrown under it?
carl

[9] Posted by carl on 09-21-2007 at 12:12 PM • top

Thanks Matt+!!!! smile

[10] Posted by Rocks on 09-21-2007 at 12:13 PM • top

There is no ultimatum. We asked for a deadline simply because we knew that this HOB meeting was coming up and would be a good chance to formulate a response.

The primates said the DES is the place to start. Some would give a more robust interpretation some less. That is the nature of a communiqué with common language. It has been represented sadly as a set of demands and deadlines. It was nto that way. We are inevitably in a position of compromise. It would be a mistake to see DES as questions that must be answered without room for maneuver.

I am sure some people who were in the room (++Peter) will find this to be news. 

Well folks, the fix is in - ++Rowan was decided to let faithful orthodox anglicans twist in the wind.  In case you didn’t see it:

Some have spoken to me about the baptismal covenant and as it works here and how those concepts make it easier to come to conclusions that others cannot come to

RSB

[11] Posted by R S Bunker on 09-21-2007 at 12:14 PM • top

Interesting that +++Rowan referred to LGBT people as people who have made a particular lifestyle choice.  Does this mean that he does not believe God made them that way?  He’s in trouble with Integrity now.

[12] Posted by revrj on 09-21-2007 at 12:19 PM • top

Money quote:

ABC: The glory of Anglicanism is to have a body without centralized authority.

Does this statement include the Bible or Jesus?

[13] Posted by Rocks on 09-21-2007 at 12:19 PM • top

Sounds to me like neither Cantuar or any of the revisionista persuasion listened to anything ++Anis had to say. Very sad. Fudge is still forthcoming, I expect.

the snarkster

[14] Posted by the snarkster on 09-21-2007 at 12:21 PM • top

My predecessor would not recognize illicit bishops I find myself in the same difficulty.

Of course he has had no problem recognizing +VGR, he has acknowleged him a the Bishop of New Hampshire, but AMiA and CANA bishops are now “illicit”. 

It is certain that no on attendin this press availability heard Archbishop Anis speak.

RSB

[15] Posted by R S Bunker on 09-21-2007 at 12:21 PM • top

Other than interminable listening and promises not to do violence to gays and lesbians, it sounds like for RGW that Lambeth 1.10 is out the window.  Very disappointing comments (no ultimatum, etc) and answers.  I guess Canterbury can’t survive without TEC’s $.

[16] Posted by hanks on 09-21-2007 at 12:26 PM • top

BabyBlue Rocks!
Thanks Mary for godly courage!

[17] Posted by David Wilson on 09-21-2007 at 12:28 PM • top

++Rowan believes (or wants to believe) TEC’s bureaucrats.
The opening remarks by the other TEC bps. were abysmal. And the multiple appeals to the ‘79 BCP baptismal additions shows how far from their (should-be) first love these bishops have strayed.

[18] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 09-21-2007 at 12:28 PM • top

I’m with Rocks. I thought Christ was the head of the Church. What glory is there in a church without Christ as the head?

[19] Posted by Deja Vu on 09-21-2007 at 12:28 PM • top

Well obviously there is some central authority or ABC could not choose to recognize or not certain bishops.

VGR was duly-elected, after all..

The “C” word used to be compassion—now it is compromise.  We’re comproming our, uh-hem, integrity.  We’re compromising the Gospel—oops, sorry, and I’m preaching to the choir (grin)

[20] Posted by Janet5 on 09-21-2007 at 12:31 PM • top

Our hope is in Christ, not Rowan Williams.  And we should trust the GS Primates, not the spins doctors who run press conferences.  I will remain hopeful but I have to confess that it is hard to match the answers at the conference with the kinds of direct challenges issued by Bishop Anis.  By the end of the HOB meeting, it will be clear that TEC has chosen to walk apart from the rest of the Communion and most of Christendom.  Canterbury will do nothing about it unless his hand is forced.  May God grant wisdom and courage to those who must now step out in faith and preserve the faithful remnant in TEC.

[21] Posted by DaveG on 09-21-2007 at 12:33 PM • top

The words from ABC are precisely the ones he would like to have got away with at DES.  He is a bureaucrat.

[22] Posted by Bill C on 09-21-2007 at 12:34 PM • top

Re: “Kevin: Is healing available to those with homosexual inclinations
ABC: that presupposes that homosexual incliniation is a disease. I do not assume that myself.”

Well, the ABC was asked a theological question. His attempt to make a medical matter is obvious. The man is not really interested in the Christian truth and approach to this issue.

In Christianity, we ALL know that healing is not necessarily physical. I aam sure the ABC knows more than that.

When is this “round-about/merry-go-round” nonsense going to end?

Spiro

[23] Posted by Spiro on 09-21-2007 at 12:34 PM • top

Looks like I’ll be sitting in a Baptist pew this Sunday.

[24] Posted by Donal Clair on 09-21-2007 at 12:35 PM • top

That was a great question about the money….who asked it I wonder?

[25] Posted by Rocks on 09-21-2007 at 12:35 PM • top

+++Rowan is not a stupid man. I find it difficult to believe that this meeting enlightened him about TEC “polity” and baptism, etc. The first time TEC mentioned their “special” status likely sent him to the library. It sounds as if he’s offering platitudes to be polite.

But I was glad he asserted the welcome AND challenge of living a Christian life the church presents to GLBTs.

[26] Posted by teatime on 09-21-2007 at 12:35 PM • top

This would seem to be the recipe du jour. I guess the British really do have a massive sweet tooth.

I had hoped for a bit more from Canterbury, but his statements at the press conference are consistent with what he has said in the past.

[27] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 09-21-2007 at 12:38 PM • top

The ABC’s refusal to comment on the +Anis address and his analysis of DES (“the place to start”) is an absolute killer.  Now it will be up to our GS friends to not let DES go down the tubes.

 

NYT: Archbishop. The address that +Anis gave the HOB today states in clear terms what some primates expect. I wanted to ask how reflective that message is of what came out of DES. Do you sense any room for compromise on the Communion side?

ABC: The primates said the DES is the place to start. Some would give a more robust interpretation some less. That is the nature of a communiqué with common language. It has been represented sadly as a set of demands and deadlines. It was not that way. We are inevitably in a position of compromise. It would be a mistake to see DES as questions that must be answered without room for maneuver.

[28] Posted by hanks on 09-21-2007 at 12:38 PM • top

The interchange of questions and answers between ‘Dis-integrity’ and the ABC and then by Kevin Kallsen was quite revealing. What ‘word of hope’ can be offered?  Kevin answered this question well:
“ Jesus heals… “.
Whatever Williams’s academic qualifications may be on paper his responses to the questions seem a tad underwhelming and indistinct.

[29] Posted by Stefano on 09-21-2007 at 12:42 PM • top

ABC: The primates said the DES is the place to start. Some would give a more robust interpretation some less. That is the nature of a communiqué with common language. It has been represented sadly as a set of demands and deadlines. It was not that way. We are inevitably in a position of compromise. It would be a mistake to see DES as questions that must be answered without room for maneuver

This one statement is going to generate a lot of bad press. This essentially says this meeting really wasn’t that important. 100’s of new people have made this a front page story because they have been led to believe just the opposite. If nothing comes out of this and news people are left with same old, same old then RW, TEC and the AC is in for roasting in the press in my opinion.

[30] Posted by Rocks on 09-21-2007 at 12:46 PM • top

“ABC: The primates said the DES is the place to start. Some would give a more robust interpretation some less. That is the nature of a communiqué with common language. It has been represented sadly as a set of demands and deadlines. It was not that way.”

ABC’s refusal to answer the direct question about ++Anis is disgusting, but to deny that ++Anis said what he did, is simply to state an untruth.

[31] Posted by Bill C on 09-21-2007 at 12:46 PM • top

Kevin: Is healing available to those with homosexual inclinations

ABC: that presupposes that homosexual incliniation is a disease. I do not assume that myself.

Oh dear. This statement speaks volumes not only about his own position but also how he views the position of the orthodox.

Of course, sin is a disease. One from which we all suffer. But this is a very precise response meant to send a very precise message.

Message received.

[32] Posted by AnnieCOA on 09-21-2007 at 12:47 PM • top

How sad to see the end.  She was a great Church while she lasted.
        Anglicanism 1537 -2007 Rest in Peace.

The Church is dead - long live the Church!!!

[33] Posted by Donal Clair on 09-21-2007 at 12:48 PM • top

Yes, 470 years and the best the ABC can come with when asked what good it is, is that the glory of Anglicanism is that it doesn’t have a Pope or Curia. I am sure that is still what many see as good about it but is that really THE “Glory” of it????

[34] Posted by Rocks on 09-21-2007 at 12:52 PM • top

Dr. Radner, Dr. Seitz, am I missing something?  Please tell me there are things going on behind the scenes that belie the ABC’s apparant spinelessness.

[35] Posted by evan miller on 09-21-2007 at 12:52 PM • top

I have a clearer understanding of the polity of TEC and some of the assumptions that the bishops of the TEC make about the Church and its polity. Some have spoken to me about the baptismal covenant, as it works here, its importance, and how the concepts they take from the covenant make it easier to come to conclusions here that others cannot come too world-wide.

Please notice, he is describing what he has heard.  Too often, if one can state a position with crystal clarity, there is an assumption that one agrees with that position.  In the world of rhetoric, this just means, “I understood what was said” not, “I agree with what was said.”  It will be important to take what has been said by RW, MA, et al as a whole.  My prayers are with the bishops for the Spirit of the Living Lord to move among them.

[36] Posted by Village vicar on 09-21-2007 at 12:55 PM • top

“I do not think this day and a half has made much of a difference. I think it will depend on what emerges by the end of the meeting.”

that does not sound like a warm fuzzy to the ECUSA loyalists - in fact it carries an ominous tone IMO.

[37] Posted by Chris on 09-21-2007 at 12:59 PM • top

I would note that this text, while valuable and having been corrected, was also live blogged, and therefore some of the details we heard (when the sound was up) during the live press conference have been lost in translation.  For instance, the ABC seemed to indicate that he did not think homosexuality was in every instance or necessarily a disease.  I don’t think his statement was a complete generalization, though that doesn’t take away from the disagreement with those of us who believe healing is always available.

The live blogged character of the text can also be seen in other responses, such as the ABC’s response to Conger’s Q about what the Anglican Communion is for… his first line was that it is to “give glory to God” not that the glory of Anglicanism is ____.

On the whole, we are certainly right to take no comfort in the press conference, and there wasn’t much information given, but I don’t think it’s wise to pick apart minutia here.

On the other hand, I take great comfort in Archbishop Anis’ statement and am encouraged by the letter released today from the Windsor Bishops.  I was especially encouraged to see both my former Bishop (Herlong) and my current Bishop (Bauerschmidt) had signed it.

[38] Posted by Jody+ on 09-21-2007 at 01:01 PM • top

Please note what he says at the crucial moments.

His earlier task force report stating that TEC was in material compliance with Windsor is already being ballyhooed by the Bishops.  It was a huge betrayal.

Now, Rowan gets to this meeting, doesnt mention Anis’ remarks, expresses hope based on a new understanding of how the TEC Bishops view their Baptismal Covenant, states DAR had no real deadlines and is subject to compromise and that he looks forward to an initial evaluation of the Bishop’s response by the AC’s Standing Committee (3 of the 5 of of which have already made statements supporting TEC’s position), and the ACC (whose head has been one of TEC’s loudest supporters).

[39] Posted by Going Home on 09-21-2007 at 01:02 PM • top

Well, time to pick up our marbles and go home (or to Rome, or Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship or . . . fill in the blank).  I’m still catching up on today’s news while grandson naps but . . . I find little encouraging news.  :(

[40] Posted by Jill C. on 09-21-2007 at 01:03 PM • top

“Isn’t God’s grace still given sacramentally in the Episcopal Church?  I would be slow to look for solutions elsewhere.” 

‘Are there no prisons?’ asked Scrooge.
‘And the Union workhouses?’ demanded Scrooge. ‘Are they still in operation?’
‘The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?’ said Scrooge.

[41] Posted by murbles on 09-21-2007 at 01:06 PM • top

Well I hope the answer about “What is good about Anglicanism” is wrong because as it stands it stinks.

[42] Posted by Rocks on 09-21-2007 at 01:07 PM • top

It would be a mistake to see DES as questions that must be answered without room for maneuver

There’s always room to maneuver, right?  “Let your yea be yea and your nay nay” ....and your “room to maneuver” be both yea and nay. 

Some have spoken to me about the baptismal covenant, as it works here, its importance, and how the concepts they take from the covenant make it easier to come to conclusions here that others cannot come too world-wide.

See…apparently the Archbishop didn’t know this although even dumb Catholics in NJ have read about it on the internet, but the Episcopalians have a DIFFERENT baptismal relationship with God then all the other Christians in the world!  Now, when the Catholic Church didn’t used to recognize anybody else’s baptism as valid, everybody thought that was just too exclusive and un-Christian for words….but now it turns out that some people actually DO have a different baptism than we do!  And it leads them to come to “conclusions” that all the other Christians in the “world wide” Church have trouble reaching!

[43] Posted by Catholic Mom on 09-21-2007 at 01:09 PM • top

I no longer care what they say or do.  I don’t want to be a part of this “church” any longer.
This is beyond sad.  And I’ve been reading this blog long enough to know that all of you are smart enough to see that nothing is ever going to change.

[44] Posted by CarolynP on 09-21-2007 at 01:15 PM • top

Ever since the March HOB meeting, Rowan Williams has been all carrot and no stick.  It appears from this press conference that that is his strategy and he is sticking with it.  We will see in the next couple of weeks how it all plays out, but we should not mistake his strategy for his final decision.

[45] Posted by wildfire on 09-21-2007 at 01:15 PM • top

Well, I suppose the good news is that you lot all seem to be unhappy with the press conference. Think carefully before you talk up secession, though. Do you really think the USA in future is going to be more like contemporary Africa or Europe when it comes to the open articulation of sexual orientation? Are you ever going to connect with a modern Western society by preaching African levels of homophobia? Evidently not: the days of the Religious Right are numbered in America, and if you jump on that bandwagon now, so are yours. You accept divorced people without stigmatising them; you accept women in leadership - by all international and historic standards you have already long been a LIBERAL CHURCH. Get your heads round it and get over it, at last!

[46] Posted by culeitreach on 09-21-2007 at 01:17 PM • top

Thanks for a great question that needs to be put forth more often, Kevin.  The rather unimpressive question dodge from the ABC was revealing.

[47] Posted by Reason and Revelation on 09-21-2007 at 01:20 PM • top

“We in this church stand for the dignity of humanity”
—-Bp. Jenkins

Right!

—- Think of the Burgling Bishop of Connecticut laying waste to St John’s Bristol.

—- Think of Bishop Walker of Long Island firing his bereaved cathedral dean.

—- Think of Bishop Alvarez Velasquez of Puerto Rico silencing (yes, silencing) a godly priest over a book displeasing to his ecclesiastical excellency.

—-Think of Bp. Sauls ousting the vestry and seizing the building of St. John’s Versailles because he thought they might be thinking about thinking about leaving.

—- Think of all the pain and dislocation caused by institutionalist martinets like Bp. Howard, who will leave the Diocese of Florida a shell of what it was before.

—- Not to speak of the demeaning ways in which ECUSA’s ruling reappraisers have treated Network bishops. Remember how they assigned Bp. Duncan to VGR’s “table group” at the first HoB meeting after VGR’s consecration. Cute, eh?

Bp. Jenkins, if this is “standing for the dignity of humanity,” I’m the Dalai Lama.

PS: I wish you’d spoken out against these violations of human dignity. Did you ever?

[48] Posted by Irenaeus on 09-21-2007 at 01:21 PM • top

I was going to have a bowl of oatmeal, but I see that the mush has already been served-in large quantities, I might add.

[49] Posted by Bob K. on 09-21-2007 at 01:22 PM • top

Sorry to see it end this way…I had prayed for a different outcome.

[50] Posted by johnp on 09-21-2007 at 01:22 PM • top

This may be the ABC’s surrender to TCGC and the clear seismic 8.5 announcement that the orthodox were waiting for and that ++Anis asked for.

I think most of us thought of ++Anis speaking from his heart only to the HoB. The ABC was also a target and I believe he was listening. . .

Thank you God that this day was not allowed to remain hidden for even a moment. Keep praying for clarity ‘cause it’s becoming severe clear as we say here in the high desert.

[51] Posted by Bob Maxwell+ on 09-21-2007 at 01:26 PM • top

After this I shall be sharing what they say, along with my own assessments, with the Primates and others, inviting their advice in the next couple of weeks.

The ABC has been clear and consistent that he will not decide these matters alone, but in concert with other primates.  If you were expecting a verdict from him when the HOB has not even issued a formal statement you were misguided.

I am not surprized that the ABC is creating the appearance of flexibility.  These leaves him and his fellow primates room to work in.  I am confident that primates like Anis who we heard from will provide the firmness necessary to make the response to the HOB a dividing line between those who are prepared to live within a communion with discipline and those who simply want to do what they want to with no consequences.

ABC’s primary constituency is not the press or us.  So if none of us seem to be pleased by the answers here I am not surprized.

[52] Posted by chiprhys on 09-21-2007 at 01:27 PM • top

Remember, the Abp also has to be chief pastor to a church in England that is every bit as liberal at grass roots level as TEC. We on this side of the Atlantic are expecting our own Church to officially include its out gay people in the same way as TEC. British society has changed astonishingly in this area over the last 10 years: the Abp understands that. If your liberals weren’t taking the African flak, then ours would be instead. The (loud and aggressive) conservative voices here are a VERY small minority, and shrinking daily, thank God.

[53] Posted by culeitreach on 09-21-2007 at 01:31 PM • top

Possible silver lining: Abp. Williams’ statements about his discussions with the HoB are largely noncommital. OK, so he better understands ECUSA’s polity and its idiosyncratic “baptismal covenant” theology. OK, so there’s “no ultimatum.” The higher-stakes question is the extent to which Williams pins himself down going into a meeting with the Global South primates.

[54] Posted by Irenaeus on 09-21-2007 at 01:31 PM • top

“Illicit bishops”?!?

O.K. I’m taking deep breaths trying not to freak out.

The whole attitude he displays here toward distressed North American Anglicans and those who seek to relieve them is close to damnable.  I’ve had it with Rowan.  I better stop there.

[55] Posted by Newbie Anglican on 09-21-2007 at 01:42 PM • top

Gosh, that’s so cute, another liberal who isn’t a member of TECUSA and who doesn’t differentiate between politics and theology telling us what kind of church we’ve been and spouting racist remarks about those uppity Africans. Here’s a free clue for you: neither England or the USA is the center of the world, nor are either of them the center of Anglicanism.

[56] Posted by Enough on 09-21-2007 at 01:42 PM • top

C’mon, gang, don’t you remember Dar?  We were all about ready to cut our own throats based on our own amateur Kremlinologies, and look how that one came out.  Let’s relax.  Pray.  ‘Be still, and know that I am God.’.  Every time we hear one of the GS Primates—+Orombi, +Venables, +Kolini, +Anis, and the others, we are reminded how very firmly grounded they are in the Faith. 

Our getting our tails all in knots won’t accomplish anything except giving culeitreach some amusement (which he/she no doubt enjoys, but can easily find elsewhere).  So take a deep breath, already.

“Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. Let all men know your forbearance.  The Lord is at hand. Have no anxiety about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. (Philippians 4:4-8. RSV)

In Christ,

Phil Hobbs

[57] Posted by gone on 09-21-2007 at 01:42 PM • top

Murbles:

Excellent analogy.

I don’t know if the ABC, as an academic who is still allowed to dwell too comfortably in the land of the theoretical, can be expected to get beyond his good grasp of the principles of sacramental theology and actually do some digging for actual facts on the ground. 
But it certainly would be good to have someone at the highest levels of leadership who could see that at least part of his ministry needs to work that way.  He came to further the dialogue and the “listening”, and it appears that that is what he has done. 
I am more than a little disappointed.

“I do not want the next years spent in anxiety about when and whether Lambeth will occur.” - If only he had the same concern about the anxiety of the orthodox faithful under the TEC/usa regime.

Two statements he made we’re slightly encouraging however:

“I hope that the House, equally, has understood more fully what those questions an proposals were meant to achieve.” - There is a subtle hint here that action is expected.  He has made this point all too subtlely on a couple of other ocassions, but his proposal for a two-tiered communion was a slightly stronger indication that he concurs, with some hesitation, that TEC/usa will have to take actual steps in the right direction to be fully “in the family”.

“I would hope that a gay or lesbian person who would want to be a Christian would want affirmation and challenge and would want to be challenged as to what is the way to live life as a follower of Christ.” - This is actually a fairly strong statement from him, given his “affirming catholic” background, that God does expect homosexuals to change their behavior.  How much celibacy he would expect is unclear, but he has been strong in a couple of recent statements that change in sexual practice/behavior is part of the process of conversion and spiritual growth.

[58] Posted by young joe from old oc on 09-21-2007 at 01:44 PM • top

Do you really think the USA in future is going to be more like contemporary Africa or Europe when it comes to the open articulation of sexual orientation? Are you ever going to connect with a modern Western society by preaching African levels of homophobia?

It’s always nice to hear from Hyde Park Corner.

[59] Posted by oscewicee on 09-21-2007 at 01:57 PM • top

Irenaeus - I wish you were the Dalai Lama.  Then you could convert all those poor Buddists to Jesus and beef up the “tiny minority” of conservatives into a threatening majority (in a peaceful and enlightened way, of course).

[60] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 09-21-2007 at 02:01 PM • top

What did I tell you?

[61] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 09-21-2007 at 02:18 PM • top

Kevin Kallsen: Is healing available to those with homosexual inclinations?

ABC: That question presupposes that homosexual inclination is a disease. I do not assume that myself.

I do not see this as a precise response. From his answer he may see it personally as either a “lifestyle choice” or…...+++RWM may see it as gentically/biologically determined. Does anyone have any specific knowledge from having read +++Rowan’s past writings/sermons/speeches as to what he personally believes?

[62] Posted by yankeeintexas on 09-21-2007 at 02:29 PM • top

Well at least Jenkins can speak clearly what many New Orleanians are thinking.

[63] Posted by Betty See on 09-21-2007 at 03:24 PM • top

It would do us all well to stop paying so much attention - or at least attaching so much importance - to what Rowan Williams says. Yes, he’s very smart and he’s a mystery wrapped in an enigma yada yada… but if he’s proved one thing over the last four years, it’s that he refuses to lead. He refuses to be a leader, or do the things leaders do. He is an observer, and that is what he’s doing here in New Orleans. By no stretch of the imagination can it be called leading. Continue working in your own parishes and dioceses; pray for the orthodox bishops here in America, and pray for the primates who have befriended and defended us.

[64] Posted by Greg Griffith on 09-21-2007 at 03:29 PM • top

Minor point, but in listening to the ABC’s opening statement, I heard him refer to the Diocese of Louisiana, not Atlanta as is written here.  Perhaps you will want to change it for accuracy’s sake.

[65] Posted by David Mainey on 09-21-2007 at 04:35 PM • top

Perhaps I’m picking up only what I wish to hear, but seems the ABC said he wasn’t final decision maker about in/out in the AC, what the bishops do in NO matters, and American (mis)understanding of baptismal theology isn’t going to fly in the rest of the world, and that gays are welcome in the church but not to be leadership or approved as that is the traditional and current understanding in spite of ECUSA/TEC’s innovations and actions. 

Sounds like a polite laundry list for ECUSA/TEC.  Still, a laundry list which needs to be cleaned, thank you very much.

[66] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 09-21-2007 at 05:19 PM • top

My impression, as an outsider, is that episcopal leadership is something that is incompatible with, and expressly disavowed within, most strands of Anglicanism. Rowan Williams’s vision does not entertain its possibility. For him, and I suspect many within the CofE, it is a defining characteristic of Anglicanism.

Compare and contrast the Global South. Why the difference? I think it’s because the Global South find themselves in a situation where they are called to evangelize, and where they are called to defend and give a coherent account of their faith. This has not been the experience of mainstream Anglicanism, which had its home in the ruling elite of a pre-evangelized society and which could take quite a lot for granted.

[67] Posted by Unsubscribe on 09-21-2007 at 06:19 PM • top

CPKS writes: “Compare and contrast the Global South. Why the difference? I think it’s because the Global South find themselves in a situation where they are called to evangelize, and where they are called to defend and give a coherent account of their faith. This has not been the experience of mainstream Anglicanism, which had its home in the ruling elite of a pre-evangelized society and which could take quite a lot for granted.” Good point. Thank you for that.

[68] Posted by Bob K. on 09-21-2007 at 07:00 PM • top

Kevin Kallsen: Is healing available to those with homosexual inclinations?

ABC: That question presupposes that homosexual inclination is a disease. I do not assume that myself.

If homosexual inclinations are not intrinsically disordered, it’s hard to see how homosexual behavior is sinful (unless God’s Commandments are arbitrary rules).  So it seems to me that the ABC has, in principle, accepted the moral legitimacy of TEC’s recent conduct.  TEC’s sin, so to speak, is jumping the gun—acting before the rest of the Communion can catch up.  As an outsider who is rooting for the good guys, I must say this looks pretty bleak.

[69] Posted by slcath on 09-21-2007 at 09:34 PM • top

My predecessor would not recognize illicit bishops I find myself in the same difficulty.

MIght I refer the ABC to George Carey’s 2007 statement with regard to irregular consecrations:

This, of course, was before 2003 when the Episcopal Church clearly signalled its abandonment of Communion norms, in spite of warnings from the Primates that the consecration of a practising homosexual bishop would ‘tear the fabric of the Communion’. It is not too much to say that everything has changed in the Anglican Communion as a result of the consecration of Gene Robinson.

George Carey never was the word illicit used in George Carey’s statement from 2000 but said that he did not recognize the two AMiA bishops’ ministry.

[70] Posted by rob-roy on 09-21-2007 at 09:59 PM • top

Sorry, running to the ER and was hurrying. Should be “George Carey never used the word illicit his statement from 2000) statement, but said he did not recognize the two AMiA bishops’ ministry.”

[71] Posted by rob-roy on 09-21-2007 at 10:02 PM • top

“neither England or the USA is the center of the world, nor are either of them the center of Anglicanism. ”  Remember that old saying “the sun never sets on the British Empire”.  Well, that proved false, didn’t it?  And we are now watching the US crumble in the world of international finance, international opinion and international respect.  Don’t suppose any of this has anything to do with our spiritual “drift”????

[72] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-22-2007 at 10:28 AM • top

“Isn’t God’s grace still given sacramentally in the Episcopal Church?”

Once the Episcopal Church declares itself independent (or cut off from) of the Scriptures, the Apostles teaching, the early church fathers, Anglicans around the world, and other Christians around the world, the answer is “Yes, It is not!”

[73] Posted by BillK on 09-23-2007 at 02:49 PM • top

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