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Whirling with the Sufis in an Episcopalian Cathedral

Thursday, October 11, 2007 • 5:52 am

heh


from here

Movement as Prayer: A Workshop. An Experience. An Education.
Saturday, October 13, 2007

Location: Skinner Auditorium, Saint Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral, Seattle WA
Contact: Eliacín Rosario-Cruz

206-323-0300 x297
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Join us on October 13 for a day of learning and experiencing the ways in which movement becomes a form of worship. There will be opportunities to whirl with the Sufis, dance with liturgical dancer Betsey Beckman, to walk the labyrinth.

There will be both instruction and demonstrations; no previous experience needed. It is about turning and turning until we come around right.

Fee: $35 / Scholarships available. Bring brown bag lunch.

At Saint Mark’s Cathedral, the cathedral for the Episcopal Church in Western Washington, life, worship, ministry, Divine Mystery and the creation are interconnected. We are an open, affirming, inclusive, and diverse people who extend God’s hospitality and welcome through our shared life and ministry.


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Comments:

“Bring brown bag lunch.”

Warning:  If you whirl, you will hurl.

[1] Posted by Cathy_Lou on 10-11-2007 at 05:52 AM • top

This advertisement keeps running through my head:  This is your church (scene of PECUSA as it was prior to the innovations); this is your church on drugs (scene of whirling sufis and a “liturgical dancer”).

New 815 tag line:
TEC, what the world woulf have been like if the hippies had taken over.

RSB

[2] Posted by R S Bunker on 10-11-2007 at 05:53 AM • top

Hmmm ... seems mostly harmless then again maybe they like playing with only a gram of Pu-238 too ...

[3] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 10-11-2007 at 06:04 AM • top

What is the connection between revisionism, liturgical dance and labyrinths? It seems as though all the leftie churches in the TEC have labyrinths and regular liturgical dances. What itch does this sort of practice gratify?

There’s a joke in there somewhere about their collective desire to keep their parishioners dizzy and lost, but I’m too tired to make it.

[4] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 10-11-2007 at 06:05 AM • top

The theme song for the event.

[5] Posted by Cathy_Lou on 10-11-2007 at 06:05 AM • top

<ahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism”
Sufism and the labyrinth defined by wikipedia.

Matt, are you on “Fresh Hell” desk duty today?

[6] Posted by The Lakeland Two on 10-11-2007 at 06:15 AM • top

Ah, Cathy_Lou, we are starting to write the new TEC Hymnal

#1 “We are the world”
#2 Turn, turn, turn”
#3 “Cum by ya”

Grow the list folks and match the dance to the tune. I was once told that the difference between pop culture and Christian music is just a substitution of “baby” with “Jesus”. So, try your hands.
Praise the Lord.

[7] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-11-2007 at 06:20 AM • top

Actually, music and dance can be creations to the glory of the Lord. But, this is fan project if you choose to engage.

[8] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-11-2007 at 06:22 AM • top

Sorry, “fun” not “fan.” Freud is looking over my shoulder. I must shut this down and run now. Bye.

[9] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-11-2007 at 06:23 AM • top

I think Marcus Borg’s wife is (or used to be) the Dean there.  Off topic, but I met Borg once when he preached at my old UMC church.  I referred to it as the Feast of the Assimilation.

[10] Posted by BCP28 on 10-11-2007 at 06:40 AM • top

Nothing necessarily particularly controversial with liturgical dance.

But sufism is a sect of mystical ISLAM.  This continues a bold prophetic pattern:  the Diocese (Seattle, Western Washington) of Olympia’s earlier inclusive acceptance of Ann Holmes Redding as both Episcopal priest licenced in the Diocese who considers herself a follower of Islam, and, as such, denies the divinity of Christ.

All this is not abandonment of communion, of course. 
That’s reserved for orthodox Christian believers who are so heinous as to be associated with (shudder) Africans.

[11] Posted by Scruff on 10-11-2007 at 06:43 AM • top

There is a legitimate physical expression for worship and there is room for well done dance and movement within the confines of the Liturgy.  After all, what is a solemn High Mass but an elaborate “dance” that expresses the perichoresis of the Holy Trinity?  My first exposure to “Liturgical Dance” occurred in the Diocese of San Joaquin at a youth event (dancing to the First Song of Isaiah).  Likewise labyrinth walking can be a practice of walking prayer.  However, like all things, these can be misused.
My own guess is that we see the explosion of these things as “marketing tools” to draw people into spiritual experiences because the “promoters” are not well grounded in the spiritual life of the Church that is found in “the Apostles’ teaching” so they search out more and greater spiritual experiences.  There is a difference between moving from spiritual “high” to spiritual “high” and a grounded spiritual life.

It was an old Jewish practice not to expose men to the Kaballah until they had been long and well grounded in the Torah and Talmud and Tradition of Judaism.  I think there is great wisdom in this and I wish TECUSA would recover the wisdom of Tradition.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

[12] Posted by Philip Snyder on 10-11-2007 at 06:56 AM • top

This sounds a lot like the old folks at my late lamented past church who revolted and ran off the priest over incense!  Maybe we could lighten up?

[13] Posted by RoyIII on 10-11-2007 at 07:02 AM • top

I guess that walking a labyrinth in prayer can be no different from doing the rosary with beads in terms of focussing on th Lord.  However, what are dancing sufis doing in a Christian service as part of the service?
This is certainly toned down from some the ‘services’ that are described in some of these posts today, but every one of these posts describe events that do not do glory to the Lord.  ECUSA claims itself to be the inclusive church and this claim is spreading far and wide.  They are far down the road from the ECUSA husband and wife priests scandal of a few years ago who were also druids.  The majority of ECUSA are complacent, ordinary folks for whom may see church as a respectable, religious social habit.  For the life of me I don’t see how they cannot be disturbed by the ‘growing’ events of the far left wing of their church.

[14] Posted by Bill C on 10-11-2007 at 07:17 AM • top

The Labyrinth is all about the Spirituality of Grace Cathedral San Francisco, Jean Houston, Lauren Artress and the New Age. The founder of the Labyrinth Project promotes is as not being Christian - a benefit? Get on Google and check this stuff out. Look for Lee Penn’s article on The New Age in the Episcopla Church.

[15] Posted by Pb on 10-11-2007 at 07:27 AM • top

Pb - Everything on earth can be used to glorify God and, as such, can be turned into an idol or misused.  Icons become idols and the direction to do away with icons also becomes an idol.  Walking a laybrinth can be a great exercise in purposeful emptying of self only to be filled with God’s Grace as you exit the labyrinth.  It can also be used to substitute for a spiritual life by promoting spiritual experiences without the associated disciplines and work to acquire virtue in life.
Because someone or many people misuse and abuse things does not mean that I should not use them to my spiritual benefit nor teach others the proper use of them.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

[16] Posted by Philip Snyder on 10-11-2007 at 07:45 AM • top

It reminds the priests of their days at “Grateful Dead” concerts.  You know where everybody is tripping and twirling around getting filled with the spirit of the “Dead”.

[17] Posted by Zoot on 10-11-2007 at 08:06 AM • top

Per Pb above.  Simply shocking.
http://www.episcopalian.org/cclec/leepenn-newage.htm

[18] Posted by ama-anglican on 10-11-2007 at 08:57 AM • top

RE: “Matt, are you on “Fresh Hell” desk duty today?”

He drew the short straw today.

[19] Posted by Sarah on 10-11-2007 at 08:59 AM • top

Sufism is a mystic tradition within Islam that encompasses a diverse range of beliefs and practices dedicated to Divine love and the cultivation of the elements of the Divine within the individual human being.

What in the world???????? I thought ECUSA was Christian? What is the deal with all this islamic suff? Two religion cannot live in the same house! The Church has no standing of authority any longer IMHO.

Giving men dressed up as nuns with the motto of “go and sin some more” blessing gay covenents, multiple relationships, clown eucharists, I’m afraid to think what might be next but one thing is sure to me….God is not here!

Greg, fresh hell seems to the order of each day….......Sad! Thank God I am One Day Closer…..

[20] Posted by TLDillon on 10-11-2007 at 09:10 AM • top

Pantheism is at home with TEC. All gods are vehicles to the divine and Jesus is on a crowded highway. If you’re in a hurry, catch another vehicle.

[21] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 09:14 AM • top

What fun - but do you have to wear a white skirt and a funny hat?

[22] Posted by Pageantmaster [Pray for +Mark Lawrence] on 10-11-2007 at 09:23 AM • top

In my younger scots-bopping days we would do a variation to the foursome reel - two couples would link arms at shoulder level; the men would would circle and the ladies and their skirts would rise outward.  Great fun - we called it helicopters.  Even more fun was the ire it excited in the Scottish Country Dancing society!

[23] Posted by Pageantmaster [Pray for +Mark Lawrence] on 10-11-2007 at 09:30 AM • top

However, what are dancing sufis doing in a Christian service as part of the service?

If you read the original article again, I believe you’ll see that this is a all-day workshop, is being held in an auditorium, has an admission fee, and does not purport to be a worship service in any way. 

I admit to being left-and-right challenged, and probably fit very well into the description of “God’s Frozen People,” but I honestly don’t see the offense here.  If it were a workshop about the many worldwide traditions of religious music, including the participation of a Jewish cantor and a Buddhist monk along with the experts in various strains of Christian music—anything from Gregorian chant to Christian rock—would it be equally offensive? 

If we’re all that anxious to ban all non-Christian elements from our religious observations, the first thing to go would have to be the Christmas tree.  And if our blessed ancestors could take pagan practices and turn them to the proper worship of God, what’s the problem with simply learning something about whirling as a form of meditation or context for prayer?

[24] Posted by Ladytenor on 10-11-2007 at 09:42 AM • top

no lady tenor, we would need to ban the use of evergreen trees to worship false gods. Christmas trees would be just fine. Whirling in a church is just fine. Whirling in devotion to Islamic idolatry in a Church is not…paid or not.

A parishioner who left my parish very early on once asked if she could host her interfaith peace dance club thing in the parish hall at Good Shepherd. As she put it: Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims and Christians all coming together to dance to God and pray for peace. No way, not on my watch.

[25] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-11-2007 at 09:53 AM • top

Ladytenor, I would agree with you except that it becomes clearer every day how much the Episcopal church has failed at Christian education and one only has to look at conference/retreat/etc offerings to see how little attempt at Christian education is being made there. It’s Native American ceremonials, Sufi whirling, Buddhist meditation, Hindu prayer wheels -anything but something Christian.

[26] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 09:54 AM • top

Not a very inclusive bunch up there in Seattle.  They aren’t getting down in the house with some hip hop too.

[27] Posted by Ralinda on 10-11-2007 at 09:59 AM • top

Why do these people seek out a Christian Church for their venues? There has got to be other facilities that they could use that are not a Christian Church. I agree with Matt+ on this…Isam doesn’t even believe in Jesus Christ as the Risen Savior. Why on earth would they even want to do anything that promotes their beliefs in a Chirch that they do not attend nor believe in? Don’t they have their own (?) and if not find a another non-christian facility!

[28] Posted by TLDillon on 10-11-2007 at 10:10 AM • top

We have all noted, one way or another, the essentially infantile character of the Episcopal left.  Everything is a toy—clown masses, Ms Keaton’s emetic feminist eucharist, and so on.

So why are we surprised when this shallow unfocused teeny-bopper spirituality shouts, “Hey kids!  Let’s put on a show!” ?

[29] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 10-11-2007 at 10:14 AM • top

Matt:  If I were to have the opportunity to hear a Sufi teacher describe how the tradition of whirling came about in his faith, what it means to him, how it is done, for how long, and perhaps provide some tips about how to do it without falling down, would that be showing devotion to Islam in your eyes?  Or just showing respect, curiosity and a willingness to listen to another person’s experiences?

I were then to incorporate what I learned, to pray properly approved Episocpal prayers (I’ll even stipulate 1928 BCP if that will make people happy) while whirling in a circle, would that be idolatrous simply because the Sufis thought of it first? 

Still not seeing the offense.  This is a workshop about incorporating movement into worship—something Episcopalians traditionally don’t do.  So they looked to the experiences of some people who do incorporate movement into worship.  One of the three examples provided is from a non-Christian tradition.  The other two have established Christian bona-fides, even if they may not be to the average Episcopalian’s tastes.  But then, a workshop about genuflecting and using a kneeler would be very boring!

[30] Posted by Ladytenor on 10-11-2007 at 10:19 AM • top

Labyrinth is Christian. Reference to Shaker hymn “Simple Gifts “turning and turning until we come around right,” is Christian. Sufism is Islam, not Christian.
I think we need to be careful not to dismiss legitimate expressions of Christian spirituality in our efforts to set the boundary against a different religion, Islam.
Maybe if we had not shunted expressions of Christian spirituality to the radical fringe, we would not find this conflation now.

[31] Posted by Deja Vu on 10-11-2007 at 10:21 AM • top

Craig Goodrich,
In an answer to your question aove:
Because there seems to be no end to the outlandishness of antics and disrespect of the Church and the Eucharist. It just seems to get worse and wors and the only real end in sight is the coming of Christ.

Come Lord Jesus Come!

[32] Posted by TLDillon on 10-11-2007 at 10:27 AM • top

It is the job of Christian churches to proclaim the message of Christ and teach people how to come into relationship with Christ. Christian churches should be providing a place where Christians (and Muslims!!!) can learn about Christ and participate in Christian worship, not a place where Christians can learn about Islam and participate in Islamic worship practices.

[33] Posted by Deja Vu on 10-11-2007 at 10:27 AM • top

Maybe if we had not shunted expressions of Christian spirituality to the radical fringe, we would not find this conflation now.

Yes, Deja Vu. Have we really plumbed the depths of Christian spirituality? Are most people even fully aware of the range of Christian spirituality?

[34] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 10:31 AM • top

Ladytenor,
By all means I think if you feel so moved to be enlightened and educated in the way d Sufi dance then you should since you live in a country that allows you that freedom to do so. After all it is your choice and your money….but ask yourself these questions? Exactly where is that money going and for what purpose? And when you know it can you know it for a fact? And just how might this Sufi education benefit your Christianity?

[35] Posted by TLDillon on 10-11-2007 at 10:35 AM • top

“What is the connection between revisionism, liturgical dance and labyrinths? It seems as though all the leftie churches in the TEC have labyrinths and regular liturgical dances. What itch does this sort of practice gratify?”

You can do these things on your own as you search for a spiritual place sans Jesus the Christ. Feel good without the need for repentance.
AP+

[36] Posted by Anglican Paplist on 10-11-2007 at 10:54 AM • top

Perhaps the bishop pined for more Muslims in his cathedral.

[37] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 11:20 AM • top

We are an open, affirming, inclusive, and diverse people
Indeed.  Christians and Muslims.  So open you can believe anything, even two contradictory absolutes at once!

Just another strategy to attact people to Islam, I guess. (Sufis are muslims.) Remember it was an Islamic prayer workshop which caused Ann Holmes Redding to turn away from Christ and turn to Islam.

The comments here had me guffawing.  But truly this stuff is just heartbreaking.  Souls are being led astray.  One of them happened to be one of the Cathedral’s priests.

[38] Posted by The_Elves on 10-11-2007 at 11:35 AM • top

Everything on earth can be used to glorify God and, as such, can be turned into an idol or misused.  Icons become idols and the direction to do away with icons also becomes an idol.  Walking a laybrinth can be a great exercise in purposeful emptying of self only to be filled with God’s Grace as you exit the labyrinth. 

This is something that I used to agree with.  However, the more that I unpack an incarnational theology, the more cautious I become about things like Yoga, Tai-Chi, and Labyrinths.  There are certain exercises that are designed to open people to particular ideas, spiritual presences, etc.  Think about prayer posture.  When you kneel, what does that do to your thought process?  When you raise your hands, what does that do?  The labyrinth was designed to produce a certain result.  Not all meditation tools are the same.  Not all are good ways to open yourself to God.

[39] Posted by revrj on 10-11-2007 at 11:44 AM • top

This should really go without saying, but since Deja Vu brought the subject up, the Shakers did not hold orthodox Christian beliefs.

[40] Posted by old lady on 10-11-2007 at 12:32 PM • top

No indeed, old lady.  Their furniture and music may have been interesting but their theology was more than a little mixed up.  The following is an extract from Wikipedia (not always completely accurate, but convenient!)

“The Shakers did not believe in procreation so therefore had to adopt a child if they wanted one. Another way they could expand their community’s population was to allow converts into the Shaker society to live and function as one. When Shaker boys reached the age of twenty-one, they were given the choice to leave the Shaker religion and go their own separate way or to continue on as a Shaker. The sexes were segregated into separate living areas.”

A peculiar, intense kind of spirituality began to develop under this unique arrangement. A period of spiritual manifestations among the Believers began in 1837 and lasted through 1847. Children told of visits to cities in the spirit realm and brought messages to the community which they received from Mother Ann. In 1838 the gift of tongues was manifested and sacred places were set aside in each community, with names like Holy Mount; but in 1847 the spirits, after warning, left the Believers. The theology of the denomination is based on the idea of the dualism of God: the creation of man as male and female “in our image” showing the dual sexuality of the Creator; in Jesus, born of a woman, the son of a Jewish carpenter, were the male manifestation of Christ and the first Christian Church; and in Mother Ann, daughter of an English blacksmith, were the female manifestation of Christ and the second Christian Church — she was the Bride ready for the Bridegroom, and in her the promises of the Second Coming were fulfilled. Adam’s sin was in sexual impurity; marriage is done away with in the body of the Believers in the Second Appearance, who must pattern after the Kingdom in which there is no marriage or giving in marriage. The four virtues are virgin purity; Christian communism; confession of sin, without which none can become Believers; and separation from the world. Their insistence on the dual sexuality of God and their reverence for Mother Ann have made them advocates of sex equality. Their spiritual directors are elders and “eldresses,” and their temporal guides are deacons and deaconesses in equal numbers.”

On last report there were only four members left in the Shaker community today.

[41] Posted by Jill C. on 10-11-2007 at 01:30 PM • top

and there are schalarships available… that was the kicker for me. it’s the syncretism that raises the eyebrow. one could do christain liturgical dance. in a differnet kind of class, one can teach the purposes of sufi whirling movement.

[42] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 10-11-2007 at 01:43 PM • top

Just to clarify: I am not advocating Shaker spirituality, but just the song “Simple Gifts”.  Like the labyrinth, it expresses the willingness to continue in an ongoing process of Christian conversion, turning and turning again as God leads us along the path.

[43] Posted by Deja Vu on 10-11-2007 at 01:47 PM • top

Phil,

There are also, doubtless, ways to “misuse” Lectio Divina and contemplative prayer. However, I do think that liturgical dance, at least at the level of intensity practiced by the Sufi, and certainly for one of my terpsichorean skills (practically non-existent), might prove counterproductive to the effective practice of Christian spirituality. It would certainly be counter to the quietude which I seek.

Knowing exceptionally little about the Sufi, I will not venture an opinion if the Sufi forms of movement, separated from the teachings of Islam, might not be beneficial to a Christian seeking to learn to experience the presence of God. That is, as I understand it, an (if not the) objective of the Christian spiritual practices mentioned.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[44] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 10-11-2007 at 02:13 PM • top

Bishop John Chane is in Iran today participating in a conference hosted by a radical Shiite ayatollah aimed at “defeating the designs of the Zionists.”  Maybe he can whirl while he is there.

http://tinyurl.com/23wvhs

[45] Posted by Chazaq on 10-11-2007 at 02:27 PM • top

<blockquote>Bishop John Chane is in Iran today participating in a conference hosted by a radical Shiite ayatollah aimed at “defeating the designs of the Zionists.” Maybe he can whirl while he is there.</blockqute>

Well fter reading this tidbit (thank you Chazaq), the only thing that came to mind was “Whom will be trying to convert whom?”

[46] Posted by TLDillon on 10-11-2007 at 02:30 PM • top

One Day,

You said, “Why do these people seek out a Christian Church for their venues? There has got to be other facilities that they could use that are not a Christian Church.”

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Those Christians who have turned the good of inclusiveness into an idol, don’t ever seem to realize that it is a one way street. Sufism in a church? Just fine. A Eucharistic celebration in a mosque? It will never happen. These kinds of things simply can’t take place in any other “sacred” space because other faiths have standards and expectations that would cramp the ol’ interfaith type’s style.

In other words, its only in the liberal churches that we find the anything goes attitude. It is not and never will be reciprocated. Its always, “Lets have the watered down interfaith thing at the Christian church. They’ll accept anything!”

It is unlikely that these people will ever be able to leave lala land for reality…

[47] Posted by StayinAnglican on 10-11-2007 at 02:45 PM • top

I have to take issue with the idea that other modes of worship, if divorced from their theological context, could be beneficial to the Christian.

I am really not convinced of this at all. First of all, I wonder if these forms really can be divorced from their original context. If that context is there progenitor, then surely such forms will carry that DNA, however subtlely that may be, into whatever context it is found. *

Second of all, it might as well be an admission that Christian worship is just not rich enough to provide something for everyone which I think is utter bunk. In 2000 years, across continents, cultures and eras, our faith has home-grown its own wholesome modes of worship, prayer and praise upon which any Christian can safely draw because these forms have Christian theology in their DNA. There is more than enough in the Christian tradition to satisfy anyone and everyone if only the will is there to seek it out and educate others about it.

I really dont see a need to go outside, when all I could ever need for variety, challenge and growth is all right here. Our own tradition lacks nothing necessary and has so much more to offer besides.

* See my next post for some idea of what I mean by this.

[48] Posted by StayinAnglican on 10-11-2007 at 02:59 PM • top

“whirling with the sufis” - a random title generator couldn’t do any better than that

[49] Posted by Enough on 10-11-2007 at 03:04 PM • top

Bishop John Chane is in Iran today participating in a conference hosted by a radical Shiite ayatollah aimed at “defeating the designs of the Zionists.”

I almost missed this. Bishop Chane- Whirling for Genocide.

[50] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 03:14 PM • top

Are non-Christian forms/modes of worship inherantly non-Christian and therefore dangerous for the Christian? I think so.

I will use just the Sufi example since we are already talking about it.

Sufism is a mystic tradition within Islam that encompasses a diverse range of beliefs and practices dedicated to Divine love and the cultivation of the elements of the Divine within the individual human being.

Now I am sure that someone with a better theological education that mine could have a field day with this statement (Fathers?) but just using what I, a common layperson, knows and can articulate about both Islam and Christianity, I can see in just this one summary of Sufism, at least two problems for the Christian even in its most generic and seemingly Christian-safe forms and practices.

1) The words “Divine Love” sound wonderful until you realize that the whirling of the Sufis is a work, an effort, a striving to reach a God who is said to be Love, but who has never lowered himself or sacrificed of Himself for any of His creatures. There is no concept in Islam of God laying himself down as a bridge or lifting us out of the mire by entering into it Himself. It is the work of the believer to strain to reach Him, to strain to draw near to Him. The highest ecstasy is a momentary contact as opposed to an ever-present Presence

2) Sufism flirts seriously with pantheism because Sufism is syncretistic and has been strongly influenced by Hinduism among a host of other things. There is a good reason why it has always had trouble being accepted by mainstream orthodox Islam. This is the main reason why.

Christians have no business whirling to try to get close to God when he is as close as the altar in your Church and your prayer space at home. No effort needed. We have only to accept the gift.

[51] Posted by StayinAnglican on 10-11-2007 at 03:18 PM • top

StayinAnglican, I’d love to see how you would expand on this:

I really dont see a need to go outside, when all I could ever need for variety, challenge and growth is all right here. Our own tradition lacks nothing necessary and has so much more to offer besides.

How would you describe the what Christian tradition has to offer in terms of spiritual practice?

[52] Posted by Deja Vu on 10-11-2007 at 03:24 PM • top

Labyrinths were first used as a substitute for pilgrimage for those who were unable to do the real thing.  There was no fuzzy-mindedness about it at all: you were approximating the specific ourney to the Holy Land, or the Becket’s Tomb, or whatever place of pilgrimage you were interested in.

[53] Posted by Ed the Roman on 10-11-2007 at 03:51 PM • top

Methinks our wonderfully inclusive liberals are not quite as familiar with non-Christian religions as they assume. “Whirling” is not associated with most Sufi’s, who espouse a quietistic, meditative form of Shi’i Islam, which might be compared to Quaker Christianity or some of the medieval mystical sects. “Whirling” is normally associated with the Dervish sect, which while part of Sufi Islam is regarded my most Sufi’s as out of the mainstream.

[54] Posted by Shipley on 10-11-2007 at 07:25 PM • top

Deja Vu,

You are asking me to describe 2000 years of spiritual practice. I hope you are not implying that there is none or that there is a lack.

From the Catholics to the Protestants to the Orthodox, in all places and times, Christians have relied on our native spiritual practices which have arisen from our own theology and cultures. This is not to say that all of these practices emerged out of a vaccum at the start of the faith, but they rose organically from the Christian experience and have sustained Christians for 2000 years. Christian prayer derives from Christian theology. Christian meditation techniques like, and I hope that I don’t mispell it, the hesychast method of the Orthodox, the Jesus prayer, the sinners prayer, the Rosary, reading and following the Christian mystics, the saints and other blessed authors and teachers, pilgrimage, withdrawal and retreat, Christian orders both religious and lay, veneration of icons, gospel singing & traditional hymn singing (singing the words of the Bible), sacrificial charity (as opposed to only some formulaic religious of tithe) and last but not least, the Eucharistic meal whether that is accompanied by a Solemn High Mass or a simple prayer service and readings.

Most important of all, all of these practices are undertaken after the gift of heaven and of the Lord’s Presence with us is given to the Christian who has faith in Jesus. All such practices are undertaken in gratitude for the gift already given, to celebrate the presence and intimacy with God which is a already a fact and freely given, and to cooperate with God as he finishes us for service to the world and in preparation for heaven. 

I dont have any idea how spinning around and getting high off of the kind of brain chemicals which flood the brain by this effort, gets one closer to God. The spinning creates through human effort an ecstatic state. Sufi’s do it chasing after a contact high with God. the same can be had by taking a drug or by exercising strenuously. But God is right here with us all along in a way that those who go through such exertions cannot imagine.

God comes to us. He goes looking for us. He stays with us. He suffered for us. We have only to “open”  or focus our “eyes” on Him . For some this opening comes in a flash. For others, it may take a lifetime, but that is all there is to really being close God. He is always available and present. It is we who fail to see.

We are deceived if we fall for the line that Christianity needs any enhancement from outside or from other religions.

[55] Posted by StayinAnglican on 10-11-2007 at 07:43 PM • top

As I recall, the whirling was intended to confuse one’s enemies.

[56] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 10-11-2007 at 07:52 PM • top

PS

Deja Vu, one last comment.

I think the Jesus prayer alone is powerful enough to suffice for all the varied spiritual practices that have ever developed in any faith. Done properly a person could live on it spiritually if they had to but the faith offers so much more than even this beginning and ending, of course, with the fullness of the Communion Feast. Truly our cup as Christians overflows with an abundance that makes the richness found in other faiths look arid in comparison. We only have to trust in this and partake of it.

[57] Posted by StayinAnglican on 10-11-2007 at 07:55 PM • top

I’ve always wanted to see the Whirling Dervishes in person.  It must be magnificent, and I would love to understand better their method of moving in time to the Divine.  Likewise, I am sad that I wasn’t able to be present when the Buddhist monks created the mandala at the National Cathedral.  Too see how other religions express the beauty of God’s creation is a wonderful blessing—much more poignant given the hostile attitudes that current world affairs have caused to become lodged in our minds.  There ARE some persons who practice other religions who DON’T want to blow us up or otherwise conquer the world.  Now, if only we, as Christians, could say the same….

[58] Posted by anotherone on 10-12-2007 at 01:09 AM • top

Those who will not admit that they are sinners and that forgiveness and reconciliation to God come only through the finished work of the crucified and risen Christ will still have a hunger for God.  Since they do not come to God through the means he has provided, they will seek high and low for some means to satisfy their spiritual hunger.  Since any other means than Jesus is impossible, their efforts will become more and more strained, more and more out of touch with essential Christian beliefs.

That being said, the ways to enjoy God and to approach him in prayer or to celebrate his presence and his gift of Jesus are many and varied. Such means can include movement—in fact, our liturgy already does, with processions, kneeling, standing, etc.  Liturgical dance has been used effectively many times—and probably ineffectively as well, or worse, focused on something other than the Lord Jesus and his work on our behalf.

[59] Posted by AnglicanXn on 10-12-2007 at 05:51 AM • top

another one,

I have no argument with the idea that other religions have found beautiful ways to express their relationship to the divine.

But that is the exact problem for Christians who want to not just admire such practices but to participate in them. However beautiful these practices are, they express an incomplete or error-ridden understanding of man’s relationship to God. Its fine to look on and to see beauty there but to go farther than that flirts too much with the danger of confusion which the Christian should at all times avoid. It is too easy to lose one’s way without deliberately courting the possibility. We should not get too close.

While I have lost a great deal of my original, if largely ignorant, admiration for Islam, I happen to have the greatest respect for Buddhism, especially such practices as making mandalas and their chanting. How beautiful. I think the Dalai Lama is a great teacher in the sense of being able to communicate his beliefs in a positive and joyful way and as far as it goes, he is a good role model in many ways. I think that outside of Christianity and Judaism, I find Buddhism the most admirable of the world faiths. There is plenty about it with which I have to disagree but its hard to argue that they lack a sense of deep sense of peace and beauty in their spiritual practices. And given what has happened recently in Burma, they also seem to have a strong sense of social responsibility, duty, and personal sacrifice. They also value non-violent resistance as much as we Christians do (I do not say this as someone who is blindly anti-war. Its just to say that Christians strongly prefer non-violent means of change.)

I don’t think that believing that Christianity is complete onto itself precludes admiration and respect for other expressions of faith.

[60] Posted by StayinAnglican on 10-12-2007 at 07:15 AM • top

How do I send a potential link to Standfirm?  I tried emailing .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) from the Contact link and the mail failed.
(Client host rejected: dynamic client name
554 5.0.0 Service unavailable
<<< 554 5.5.1 Error: no valid recipients.  )

Greg - I’m sending you a private message.

[61] Posted by Cathy_Lou on 10-12-2007 at 09:19 AM • top

I love what you said here, StayinAnglican:

All such practices are undertaken in gratitude for the gift already given, to celebrate the presence and intimacy with God which is a already a fact and freely given, and to cooperate with God as he finishes us for service to the world and in preparation for heaven.


And I love what you said here, AnglicanXn:

Those who will not admit that they are sinners and that forgiveness and reconciliation to God come only through the finished work of the crucified and risen Christ will still have a hunger for God.  Since they do not come to God through the means he has provided, they will seek high and low for some means to satisfy their spiritual hunger.

All Christian spiritual practices must be informed by this important basic: God is always there waiting. It is we that turn away in our shame at our sin, and if we turn back to face God, we will find him.  The labyrinth walks and the song “Simple Gifts” can be useful for some in their Christian Spiritual practice, when understood as a physical movement expressing this spiritual truth.

[62] Posted by Deja Vu on 10-12-2007 at 12:30 PM • top

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