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In Northern Michigan, Everybody is God

Thursday, October 11, 2007 • 11:34 am


Check out the Diocese of Northern Michigan’s response to the Dar Communique [PDF]. Some emphases kindly added by your friendly blog host:

On the 19th of February, 2007, the Primates of the Anglican Communion, meeting in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, released a Communiqué. We, as the Diocese of Northern Michigan, offer our response.
...
We invite all to God’s table. What we expect, in turn, is that those who come to the table likewise recognize the right, by being children of God, of everyone else to be at the table.

BAPTISMAL ECCLESIOLOGY

We proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ that everyone and everything belongs. We are continually being created in the image of God, in whom we live and move and have our being. Baptism confirms this most basic truth which is at once, the Good News: all is of God, without condition and without restriction.

We seek and serve Christ in all persons because all persons are the living Christ. Each and every human being, as a human being, is knit together in God’s Spirit, and thus an anointed one – Christ. Jesus of Nazareth reveals this as the basic truth of the human condition:

God is more in me
than if the whole sea
could in a little sponge
wholly contained be.
~Angelus Silesius

We strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being, because each person embodies the living God. Life is inherently and thoroughly sacramental, which is why we love one another without condition.

We stand with Meister Eckhart who, when he gazed deep within himself, as well as all about him, saw that “the entire created order is sacred” as it is grounded in God. We do harmful and evil things to ourselves and one another, not because we are bad, but because we are blind to the beauty of creation and ourselves. In other words, we are ignorant of who we truly are: “there is no Greek or Hebrew; no Jew or Gentile; no barbarian or Scythian; no slave or citizen. There is only Christ, who is all in all.” (Colossians 3:11).

Everyone is the sacred word of God, in whom Christ lives. This baptismal vision of a thoroughly blessed creation leads us to understand the reason for the incarnation in a new way:

People think God has only become a human being there – in his historical incarnation – but that is not so; for God is here – in this very place – just as much incarnate as in a human being long ago. And this is why he has become a human being: that he might give birth to you as his only begotten Son, and as no less. ~Meister Eckhart

AFFIRMATIONS

Because each and every one of us is an only begotten child of God; because we, as the church, are invited by God to see all of creation as having life only insofar as it is in God; because everything, without exception, is the living presence, or incarnation, of God ; as the Diocese of Northern Michigan,

We affirm Christ present in every human being and reject any attempt to restructure The Episcopal Church’s polity in a manner contrary to the principles of the baptismal covenant;

We affirm the full dignity and autonomy and interdependence of every Church in the Anglican Communion and reject any attempt of the Primates to assume an authority they do not have nor have ever possessed;

We affirm the sacramental gift of all persons, their Christ-ness, especially those who are gay and lesbian, and reject any moratorium on the blessing of samesex unions and consents of gay bishops, as it would compromise their basic dignity.

H/T: KarenB
PDF archived here in case it mysteriously disappears or gets edited.


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Comments:

Hinduism at its finest.

[1] Posted by JackieB on 10-11-2007 at 11:51 AM • top

We affirm the sacramental gift of all
persons, their Christ-ness, especially
those who are gay and lesbian, and reject
any moratorium on the blessing of samesex
unions and consents of gay bishops,
as it would compromise their basic dignaty.

Hey, ++Rowan, maybe you should begin your listening process hear!
For, God’s sake man pull your fingers from your ears, and quit mumbling “nah, nah, nah, nah”.  Really, its embarrassing.

RSB

[2] Posted by R S Bunker on 10-11-2007 at 11:59 AM • top

their Christ-ness, especially those who are gay and lesbian

Why are gays and lesbians especially Christ-ness-y?

[3] Posted by James Manley on 10-11-2007 at 12:01 PM • top

Diocese of Northern Michigan
Diocese of What’s Happening Now
Diocese of What Has Been
Diocese of Not Much Longer
Diocese of Nevermore

Anyone need a used cathedral in Marquette? Or some tidy, pre-owned chuch buildings? No Anglicans need apply.

[4] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 12:17 PM • top

The first few times I read this, I kept hitting refresh on the Dio. Northern Michigan webpage. I who keep thinking I’m beyond shock at any ECUSA-related news sat slack-jawed and completely confounded for maybe 10-15 minutes.  Just utterly HORRIFIED.

I just couldn’t believe that the diocesan newspaper of a supposed-to-be-Christian denomination could publish in black and white an article that states:

—All persons are the living Christ
—Each and every human being, ... is ... an anointed one – Christ.
—Everyone is the sacred word of God
—Everything, without exception, is the living presence, or incarnation, of God

Did this not ring alarm bells with anyone?  Was there no one who said “No we can’t publish that? This is HERESY!”

I hope and pray there are a few readers from N. Michigan here who will demand to know who wrote this.  And that whoever did will be held accountable for teaching and promoting false doctrine.

Although I tend to be somewhat conservative politically, what’s needed here is a “Not in MY name!” campaign.  We need folks in N. Michigan to band together and say this does NOT represent what we believe.  It does not reflect what we affirm. Take out newspaper adds.  Hold rallies.  When in the diocesan convention?  Go stage a protest.  All you have to do is boldly, loudly and publicly declare:

We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God…

Anyone in Northern Michigan still believe this?!  We need to hear from you.  Make your voices heard!!!

[5] Posted by The_Elves on 10-11-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

Jackie, you took the words right out of my mouth. Good grief. Things like this send me near to despair of this church.

[6] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 12:31 PM • top

Greg SURELY you could have come up with a sexier headline?!
Surely this is the freshest of “fresh hell” posted in a long time here? 
Someone PLEASE send this to ++Rowan and the Primates. 

More importantly, someone please call in folks or go yourselves to teach and disciple and shepherd those in this very misguided diocese.

All I can think of is Jesus’ heartbreak and compassion at the harassed and helpless, the sheep without a shepherd.  Who will declare Christ to those in N. Michigan who are dying without Him, even though they are in the “church?”

[7] Posted by Karen B. on 10-11-2007 at 12:41 PM • top

To my mind, this is the crucial sentence

In classical theology, we only exist because God exists in us.

Could somebody more knowledgeable than me comment on this (i.e. I’m too lazy to look up my Aquinas, Augustine, Calvin etc.). My understanding is that our existence comes from God (as does all the created order), because God, almost by definition, is the source of existence. But saying that we exist because God exists in us (and presumably all of creation) strikes me as being rather too pantheistic. For example, Romans 6 says that we are united to Christ in Baptism, implying that before (a true) baptism (of the spirit as well as with water and words) we are not united with Christ; while “we only exist because God exists in us” seems to apply to the whole creation and thus also to the unbaptised. I single this sentence out because it seems to be the source of their errors highlighted in the article above, and indeed the source of a lot of errors I see coming from TEC. At least, they assume from this that because God exists in us, then it necessarily follows that “all persons are the living Christ.” I cannot believe that, even if their take on “classical theology” is correct, they are not confusing two different meanings of “exists in us.” 

 

With my own, rather limited knowledge, it seems that it could have been inspired by the passage from Calvin saying something along the lines of God is a governor and preserver,  by a special providence sustaining, cherishing, superintending, all the things which he has made, to the very minutest, even to a sparrow, rather than all things are sufficiently sustained by the energy divinely infused into them at first. (Institutes, Book 1 chapter 16). This is one of the (few) passages of Calvin with which I disagree (I’m afraid I have a somewhat carnal mind), but I can half see how you might get from God continually sustaining us to “we only exist because God exists in us,” although that goes somewhat further than Calvin.

 

But even so, I would be grateful if somebody more intelligent than I could point out where the statement quoted at the top comes from, and where the fallacy is, because their conclusions seem to contradict most of scripture,  (John 1:1-5,10-14 , John 3:17, Romans 6, Romans 7:18-20,25Romans 8:5 etc. spring to mind).

[8] Posted by Boring Bloke on 10-11-2007 at 12:55 PM • top

Boring Bloke,
I think that the bible is just a good book full of stories to these people, not to be taken seriously. You are correct in their conclusions contradiciting most all of scripture….

[9] Posted by TLDillon on 10-11-2007 at 01:10 PM • top

This bears not the least resemblence to anything recognizable as Christian.  What utter bilge!

[10] Posted by evan miller on 10-11-2007 at 01:14 PM • top

And they made themselves equal with God

[11] Posted by garyec on 10-11-2007 at 01:16 PM • top

Because each and every one of us is an only begotten child of God

Say what?  Do they need a dictionary, in Northern Michigan, for the word “only”? 

Fresh hell, indeed.

[12] Posted by Connie Sandlin on 10-11-2007 at 01:16 PM • top

I just wanted to chime in at this point and remind everyone how these things work:

First, a stream of nutty statements like this, which directly contradict the nature of God and Jesus Christ as revealed in Scripture and understood by Christians for 2,000 years, is posted in a diocesan newsletter.

Next, we post said statements here and proceed to demonstrate how they are counter to Christian theology.

Soon - either directly in this thread, or by comments at other sites - we will see the most hysterical, shrieking accusations that because we have the gall to call a spade a spade, we are the ones who in fact don’t understand Christ’s message.

Just don’t want it to be a surprise to anybody when it actually happens.

[13] Posted by Greg Griffith on 10-11-2007 at 01:35 PM • top

I love “bumper sticker theology”
“You are unique - just like everyone else!”
“Save the Whales - collect the whole set!”
“each and every one of us is an only begotten child of God.”

It’s so much easier than actually thinking and reading and studying.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

[14] Posted by Philip Snyder on 10-11-2007 at 01:35 PM • top

I know that I said that I would not post here for awhile, and I think I stayed away for perhaps two whole weeks, but like they say, you cant keep a good man down-or you cant keep a pain-in-the-keester-away, as the case may be…My first thought was, this HAD to be a plant. I mean, this just COULDNT have been a genuine expression of errr, ahh, “faith”, coming directly from the “horses mouth”, so to speak, of the diocese, could it? I think I’ll wait until I get further confirmation that this is so before making any comment on the same. It was just a few months back that a lengthy communication, professed to be from the pen of Gene Robinson, turned out to be a forgery, so I’m gonna wait and see with this one.

[15] Posted by Bob K. on 10-11-2007 at 01:36 PM • top

The resolution makes many grand and categorical statements about the indissoluble unity of all Christians—-and then, in its grand finale, uses them to defend ECUSA’s glorious POLITY against the assaults of the primates.

(I won’t say “the world, the flesh, and the primates” because the resolution affirms the goodness of the world and the flesh.)

If all Anglicans are all One in Christ (indeed ARE the Incarnate Christ), then what makes ECUSA’s polity so special? Why should we make decisions nationally rather than internationally? And if we don’t make decisions at a global level, why not make them at a diocesan or congregational level? What makes the national level uniquely legitimate?

If all Christians are One in Christ, why should Anglicans alone be making decisions for Anglicans? Why not make those decisions jointly with Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Evangelical Protestant Christians?

[16] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 01:37 PM • top

OH-and RSB-well said.

[17] Posted by Bob K. on 10-11-2007 at 01:38 PM • top

Following up on something the elves wrote above…. 

You know, all anyone needed to do to utterly destroy this idiocy was a simple thought exercise.  A search and replace.  And yes, I’m about to break Godwin’s law here.  But there is exceptional cause:

Here are the 4 direct quotes from the article:
—All persons are the living Christ
—Each and every human being, ... is ... an anointed one – Christ.
—Everyone is the sacred word of God
—Everything, without exception, is the living presence, or incarnation, of God

Let’s try this:
—[Child molesters] are the living Christ
—[Charles Manson], ... is ... an anointed one – Christ.
—[Adolph Hitler] is the sacred word of God
—[Rocks, ear wax, toenail clippings, bird droppings…] is the living presence, or incarnation, of God

Anyone in Northern Michigan still want to affirm this stuff?  Didn’t think so.

[18] Posted by Karen B. on 10-11-2007 at 01:41 PM • top

Bob K: You’re certainly within your rights to seek further confirmation before commenting. The resolution does appear on the “Diocese of Northern Michigan” website that turns up as the first item in Google search results.

In any event, the resolution has content of a type that comes out of all horses every day.

[19] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 01:45 PM • top

Actually, Hell is not in northern Michigan, but probably lies in the diocese of Eastern Michigan.  (I’d have to check a map showing diocesan boundaries to be sure.)
Makes me wonder what da Yoopers have been putting in their beers up there in the north woods.  Maybe they’ve been ingesting some strange brew or participating in some tribal rituals in da Escanaba moonlight! 
Repeat after me, eh?  “All persons are da living Christ . . . ”

[20] Posted by Jill C. on 10-11-2007 at 01:45 PM • top

This is truly amazing.  I guess the only exception to the purported fact that each human being is “the only begotten son of God” is for those human beings extingushed by abortion.

[21] Posted by Scott S. on 10-11-2007 at 01:46 PM • top

Irenaeus, thanks for actually helping us look beyond the outrageous statements (which are like shooting fish in a barrel) to actually think about some of the subtler implications and fallacies of this kind of statement.  Obviously the blatant denial of Christian doctrine can’t be ignored, but given that usually we’ll never see something this egregious and extreme, your analysis points us to how wrong this is even if one throws out the Buddhist-sounding garbage.

[22] Posted by Karen B. on 10-11-2007 at 01:47 PM • top

By the power vested in me as God, I hereby proclaim the winning Powerball numbers on Saturday evening to be:  7, 14, 21, 28, 35, 42 and the Powerball number to be…...49!!!

[23] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 10-11-2007 at 01:49 PM • top

See, see, we told you so. It really is this bad!

[24] Posted by Deja Vu on 10-11-2007 at 01:55 PM • top

What do you expect from a club whose mission statement reads:

“Our Vision
We envision a world in which all people live together in peace and in harmony with all of creation, where all can contribute and the gifts of all are joyfully received, nurtured, and supported, where our diversity is celebrated in community, and every creature is recognized as having eternal significance.”

Fine, buy the world a coke, but don’t Christians have something else to say?

[25] Posted by Philip Bowers on 10-11-2007 at 01:58 PM • top

“We are all individuals!”

“I’m not.”

[26] Posted by Ed the Roman on 10-11-2007 at 01:59 PM • top

It reads as though some undergraduate wrote it after reading “Stranger in a Strange Land” by Robert Heinlein.

All this New Age-y-ness is making me twitchy. The most profound thing ever written on this website was Greg Griffith’s “what fresh hell” comment.

[27] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 10-11-2007 at 02:01 PM • top

Oh, DUH.  It’s a problem of the bad formatting, I guess.  But I just now FINALLY noticed this at the far right hand of page 2, which states who wrote these affirmations:

Affirmed by:
Standing Committee
Core Team
Diocesan Council
General Convention Deputation
11 August 2007

It would be bad enough if it were just one crackpot.  But no we probably have something like 20, and who knows, perhaps even 30 or more folks who signed on to this?  Heaven help us.

[Maybe we can come up with a list of names and e-mails (at least for Standing Committee members perhaps), and folks can LOVINGLY share their grave concerns over this statement?]

Oh, and I also just noticed the diocesan “vision” statement.  Not a word about Christ.  Yeah, there are two references to baptism…
It is just incredible how far astray ECUSA’s baptismal theology can lead individuals and dioceses.  Here’s the diocesan vision.  Ouch.

The Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan
We envision a world in which all people live together in peace
and in harmony with all of creation, where all can contribute
and the gifts of all are joyfully received, nurtured, and supported,
where our diversity is celebrated in community, and every human being is recognized as having eternal significance.
We commit ourselves to identify, nurture, and support
the baptismal ministry of every single member/person of this diocese.
The baptismal covenant is our guide and inspiration.

And what on EARTH is this all about in the masthead??  Is he acting bishop or something?  [+Jim Kelsey was killed in an accident earlier this year]

Contact: Kevin G. Thew Forrester, Ph.D.
Licensed Enneagram Teacher, Narrative Tradition
226-2912 or .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

 

[28] Posted by Karen B. on 10-11-2007 at 02:01 PM • top

dee-dee-DEE-dee     dee-dee-DEE-dee

(The following to be read outloud in best possible Rod Serling immitation.)

Ya know, long before I knew anything about this current situation in the Anglican world (or, to put it another way, long before I became as addicted to SF and T19 as any soap opera addict is) I was in Episcopal churches maybe 10-15 times over the course of 20 years.  (Weddings, went with a friend, etc.).  And very frequently the homily was…hard to say exactly—not so much heretical as WEIRD.  Like the person was just kind of spontaneously telling you something that popped into their heads the previous night when they were really stoned.  And I didn’t think much about why there seemed to be so much weirdness but I knew this wasn’t any kind of established theology—Protestant or otherwise.  Well, there are weird people and weird pastors everywhere.  I could tell you some weird stories from my days sitting in an RC pew.  (Someday perhaps I’ll tell about the funeral of the guy who died in his mistresses bed.) But it wasn’t until a year ago that I discovered that weirdness turns out to be an OFFICIAL trait of the Episcopal church.  Or is it just that I live in NJ??

[29] Posted by Catholic Mom on 10-11-2007 at 02:04 PM • top

If all Christians are One in Christ, why should Anglicans alone be making decisions for Anglicans? Why not make those decisions jointly with Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Evangelical Protestant Christians?

Well, and since everything is Christ, why limit ourselves to Christianity. Maybe we should ask the Moonies to help us decide things.

[30] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 02:08 PM • top

“Makes me wonder what da Yoopers have been putting in their beers up there in the north woods”

I’ll bet that if all members or regular communicants of this mini-diocese heard competently prepared arguments for and against this resolution (e.g., 4 minutes on each side, with 2 minutes for conclusion and rebuttal), a majority would vote against the resolution.

I wonder whether this mini-diocese is any more representative of the Upper Peninsula than the Bp. Moody was of Oklahoma.

But that’s polity, eh?

[31] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 02:10 PM • top

So much silliness, so little time ...

I especially enjoyed: “We invite all to God’s table. What we expect, in turn, is that thoase who come to the table likewise recognize the right, by being children of God, of everyone else to be at the table.”

Translation: “We are so very tolerant of all people who come to the table, but have to say that in all tolerance that we must require you to also be tolerant just like us, otherwise bugger off.

[32] Posted by dovefromabove on 10-11-2007 at 02:11 PM • top

Ah Philip B., you beat me to the punchline.  You literally took the words out of my mouth about the vision statement being nothing more than “I’d like to buy the world a Coke”

But at least folks can now blame YOU not me when they’ve got that horridly annoying melody stuck in their heads all evening! wink

[33] Posted by Karen B. on 10-11-2007 at 02:12 PM • top

A few new releases from the Diocese of Northern Michigan

Release 1

“We apologise for the fault in the Diocese of Northern Michigan Publication ‘The Church in HiawathaLand.’ Those responsible have been sacked.”

Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretti nasti.

Release 2

“We apologise again for the fault in the first release. Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked, have been sacked.

The theology and public relations directors of the firm hired to continue after the other people had been sacked, wish it to be known that they have just been sacked. Theology and public relations of the diocese have been completed in a entirely different style at great expense and at the last minute.”

The theology of the diocese shall now be carried on by 40 SPECIALLY TRAINED ECUADORIAN MOUNTAIN LLAMAS

wink

[34] Posted by tired on 10-11-2007 at 02:14 PM • top

Ok… nosing around the N. Michigan website a bit more.  Here’s an odd tidbit.  The diocesan vision statement is repeated on the diocese’s home page.  Except this version doesn’t even mention baptism.  It is totally, utterly un-Christian and Godless.

Our Vision
We envision a world in which all people live together in peace and in harmony with all of creation, where all can contribute and the gifts of all are joyfully received, nurtured, and supported, where our diversity is celebrated in community, and every creature is recognized as having eternal significance.

[35] Posted by Karen B. on 10-11-2007 at 02:15 PM • top

If all Christians are One in Christ, why should Anglicans alone be making decisions for Anglicans? Why not make those decisions jointly with Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Evangelical Protestant Christians?

I think you fail to understand the unique nature of Anglicanism as it is understood in the Episcopal church. The TEC gets to make decisions on its own because it is moved by the Spirit through the agency of its holy and sacred polity.

If all those other groups you mentioned had any sense or religious feeling they would do what the Episcopal church tells them to do. In the TEC worldview, the whole problem with the world today is that no one knows their place and nobody respects their betters anymore.

[36] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 10-11-2007 at 02:20 PM • top

I be God
You be God
All God’s chilluns be God
When we get to Heaven, gonna put on our robes….....

And then there will be millions of Gods. Take your pick.

the snarkster

[37] Posted by the snarkster on 10-11-2007 at 02:20 PM • top

You know, this is one those posts that makes you feel like you need to take a shower and have a stiff drink after reading it.

the snarkster

[38] Posted by the snarkster on 10-11-2007 at 02:23 PM • top

“I discovered that weirdness turns out to be an OFFICIAL trait of the Episcopal church.  Or is it just that I live in NJ??”

Yeah, well Catholic Mom, you do live in a epicenter of weirdness, however, sadly the Episcopal Church has been headed that direction for at least 30 years. It didn’t used to be that way, but as older priest retire or die-off the next generation seems to want to keep the weird decades of the culture alive and enshrined ... confused

[39] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 10-11-2007 at 02:25 PM • top

Ok a bit more.  The diocesan vision statement goes back to at least Jan 2004.  How can someone not have noticed and voiced concern sooner.  Wow.

And for those who do want to write Diocesan leadership, here’s the link to the webpage with names and e-mail addressess:
http://www.upepiscopal.org/frames/leadershipframe.html

[40] Posted by Karen B. on 10-11-2007 at 02:25 PM • top

“All this New Age-y-ness is making me twitchy”—-Oscewicee

Sit comfortably in a nurturing place and relax. Gaze at the healing crystals. Bathe your body in the healing light of magic candles. Let astral thyme purify your lungs even as chelated echinacea cleanses your inner self. Repeat after me, “Tash is Aslan, Aslan is Tash.” All shall be well. All is well. All has always been well. Shantih, shantih, shantih. Tashlan. Tashlan. Tashlan.

[41] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 02:26 PM • top

Snarkster,
You fail to understand, in the words of the modern prophetess Belinda “Ooh, baby, do you know what thats worth ?
Ooh heaven is a place on earth”

In the Episcopal Church VH1 trumps Scripture all day every day.

[42] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 10-11-2007 at 02:26 PM • top

Does N. Michigan include Detroit? ‘Cuz I’m willing to at least discuss the divinity of Ted Nugent.

[43] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 10-11-2007 at 02:27 PM • top

While I completely agree with the “twitchy” comment, it was mousetalker’s. Which saves me on astral thyme and chelated echinacea! (I’m pretty sure I don’t want to know what those are…)

[44] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 02:29 PM • top

“The theology of the diocese shall now be carried on by 40 specially trained Ecuadorian mountain llamas”—-Tired

Save the training. The resolution has content of a type that comes out of all llamas every day.

[45] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 02:30 PM • top

Tired, I’m not sure how Ecuadorian Llamas would fare up there in northern Michigan.  Can they cross country ski?  Do they know how to ride snowmobiles?  wink

[46] Posted by Jill C. on 10-11-2007 at 02:35 PM • top

Oscewicee: The “twitching” comment did have that certain feline quality. OK, skip the astral thyme and go directly to the organically nurtured catnip. Be a centered cat and Uncle Irenaeus will serve you a chicken dinner.

[47] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 02:36 PM • top

For the record, I directed the last two sentences of my 2:36 pm comment at the cat, not Oscewicee.

[48] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 02:38 PM • top

I’m not sure I’m licensed to be centered. But it would be better than being cornered. Bring on the chicken, Uncle Irenaeus.

[49] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 02:40 PM • top

“I’m not sure how Ecuadorian Llamas would fare up there in northern Michigan”

Then stick to horses. Use the savings to give a long-overdue pay raise to the Canon Missioner for Diversity-Curriculum Coordination. All horses produce the requisite theology every day.

[50] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 02:41 PM • top

But for theological diversity, don’t exclude cats, rats, and bats.

[51] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 02:43 PM • top

You know, Jake has a thread going over at his place that asked a question along the line of “where do all these foreign primates get all their “misconceptions” about The Episcopal Church?”

My answer (before it got deleted) was this:
Where do all these crazy ideas about TEC come from? It is really quite obvious. They come directly from the mouths of TEC bishops and clergy and from the actions of innumerable diocesan conventions. I had quite a list of quotes I was going to post but, as usual, Jake got his panties in a wad over the truth and I gave up.

the snarkster

[52] Posted by the snarkster on 10-11-2007 at 02:44 PM • top

OOps. Consider that reply as being channeled by me for the cat. Obviously, I’m so bumfuddled by the Dio of N. Mich. that I can’t find my way through a message thread.

Karen B. thanks for the link to which queries may be directed.

[53] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 02:45 PM • top

Irenaeus: I would submit that even without the training, your contemplated use of the llamas would constitute a theological improvement.

S/D: Good point - I do not doubt that a llama would make a good yooper, if not a cheese-head vicuna.  But perhaps the diocese has decided to offshore the task and avoid chilling the poor beasts…

[54] Posted by tired on 10-11-2007 at 02:47 PM • top

I think part of TEC’s newly adapted Beatles Eucharist goes here:

Semolina priestess, climbing up the ol’ bell Tower.
Elementary penguin singing Hare Krishna.
Man, you should have seen the kick, bishops all said NO.
I am the God-man, they are the God-men, I am the walrus,
goo goo Jesus, we are the Jesus, goo goo gJesus, we are the Jesus, goo goo
(rhythmical speaking along with juba’s).
Juba juba juba, juba, juba, juba, juba, juba, juba juba. Juba juba…..


Hey, to quote Hunter Thompson, “When the going gets weird, the Weird turn pro.”  And so they have Hunter, so they have.

RSB

[55] Posted by R S Bunker on 10-11-2007 at 02:50 PM • top

One must give credit to Dr. Toon on his message that the whole new baptismal stuff has been a disaster for this current generation brought up with it. He has stayed on task and topic.

[56] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 10-11-2007 at 02:51 PM • top

HELP - where is Fr Van to tell me that “All is Well” (this phrase is trade marked by The Episcopal Church and cannot be used without the express written consent of the General Convention of the same)?  Please dear Fr. Van, tell me how this is really normal and all ++Peter’s fault.

Just kidding sir, but you have to admit that if +KJS doen’t raise some alarm about this then she’s really not doing her job.

RSB

[57] Posted by R S Bunker on 10-11-2007 at 03:00 PM • top

Greg,

I would add a bit to your warning.

Somewhere along the line, the spinning will commence in a pitiful attempt to claim that what is plainly pantheism and heresy is not in fact pantheism and heresy.

It is just another case of us dull witted conservatives just not getting what the rarified and sophisticated thinking among the progressives are really getting at.

Remember the whole Mother Christ incident that we blew out of all proportion? Boy did we misunderstand that one….

(sar. off)

[58] Posted by StayinAnglican on 10-11-2007 at 03:02 PM • top

This has got to be some of the most blatant post-christian drivel I’ve ever read.  I would be gut-busting funny if it weren’t for the fact that souls have been entrusted to this lot. 
BTW… Koo koo ka joob!

[59] Posted by aterry on 10-11-2007 at 03:02 PM • top

We affirm the theological truth that we are
always already one in God; otherwise we
would not be. The tragedy of the current
moment, which is recurrent throughout
history (remember the conflict that led to
the first council in Jerusalem), is that we
fail to see this unity and so we grow
anxious and afraid.

Wow, so that’s what happens when you take the Red Acid.

RSB

[60] Posted by R S Bunker on 10-11-2007 at 03:08 PM • top

RSB.  +KJS may have just squandered an opportunity to do so.  She was in N. Michigan all day Oct. 1, or so the N. Mich website says.

And head’s up.  The Diocesan Convention begins:  TOMORROW!!!

[61] Posted by The_Elves on 10-11-2007 at 03:13 PM • top

Did this not ring alarm bells with anyone?  Was there no one who said “No we can’t publish that? This is HERESY!”

Ah, HAH!  We now have proof that the elves are not REAL Episcopalians.  Real Episcopalians are affirming, loving, accepting, inclusive, non-judgemental and above all listening.  Another affirmation of their non membership in TGCC is the fact that they actually believe something can be a heresy.  No, no, no, no!  All is good.  All is well.  Excuse me a moment.
{go away - leave the curtain alone - NO!  STOP!  YOU MAY NOT PULL BACK THE CURTAIN - go away little girl, nothing to see here}
As I was saying, breathe, relax, be.  Take a relaxing walk in the laybrinth or go to a find yourself seminar.  There, there, all better.

[62] Posted by JackieB on 10-11-2007 at 03:16 PM • top

OK folks, humorous remarks aside…

Two thoughts. First is yet another example of the incredible pride and arrogance of man. One of my favorites that seems to increase in it’s apostacy with each new feel good statement. Where is the humilty that we as sinners are saved ONLY through Christ’s crucifiction, the realization that only through this salvation and substitution of the Son of God for our sins are we sentenced to death? We are all sin positive, there is no cure. And some would elevate themselves to the level of God?
Secondly this is further proof that we are not a denomination divided by orthodox versus progressive issues. We are two entirely different religions. Not two branches of Christianity, two seperate religions entirely.
May the Lord show his mercy and move these people to the true faith and repentance. May they come to know the error of their ways and truly experience the joy of salvation through the risen Christ. These are souls in serious jeopardy.

[63] Posted by birminghamer on 10-11-2007 at 03:17 PM • top

The Diocese of Northern Michigan is the Upper Peninsula, far from any major city.  It is one of four dioceses in Michigan, and by far the smallest.  If this kind of nonsense keeps up, they will have to merge dioceses, maybe all the way back into one diocese.  Why should I go to church if I am already God?  Let them come to me!

On another note: if those who wrote or approved this are ordained, how can we get a heresy trial or a presentment going?  This is utter heresty; it tears the Creeds up into tiny pieces and spits on them.

And a PS to Catholic Mom—do tell us about the funeral of the man who died in his mistress’s bed—I am sure it can hardly be believed!

[64] Posted by AnglicanXn on 10-11-2007 at 03:19 PM • top

So I guess those who have a desire for a night of consenting fun with every nubile woman they meet are likewise free to express that Christ-ness within themselves, too?

[65] Posted by Reason and Revelation on 10-11-2007 at 03:32 PM • top

Catch this—Dr. Thew Forrester is not only the diocesan “Enneagram Teacher” but also conducts the “Pre-Marriage/Partnership Counseling” at St. Paul’s Episcopal Church:

http://www.stpmqt.org/Docs/CovenantGroup/LiturgyPlanningTeam.pdf

[66] Posted by James Manley on 10-11-2007 at 03:32 PM • top

Dear RSB:
Don’t doubt for a moment that I am under the delusion that all is well…And this document is an example of why all is not well…

“We affirm the sacramental gift of all persons, their Christ-ness, especially those who are gay and lesbian, and reject any moratorium on the blessing of samesex unions and consents of gay bishops, as it would compromise their basic dignity.”

The whole thing seems to be pat phrases joined together…“Christ-ness,” egads! What a word…I suppose those who put this together are afraid to say “christ-like” for fear these attitudes won’t measure up to our Lord’s teachings and His example. I also wonder why they felt the need to set gay and lesbians apart, and on a higher level, in their affirmations of the gift of God that is to be found in all persons. They apparently have a giftedness hierarchy in Northern Michigan…Oh, and isn’t same sex two words? Not that I am a stickler, or have the right to be, about spelling, but in a diocesan statement you expect better—- especially if the who point is to lift up gays and their expression of sexuality…Very sick document, by very sick thinking people…But I mean that in love and charity…

[67] Posted by FrVan on 10-11-2007 at 03:32 PM • top

P.S.
I meant I know that I am under a self-imposed delusion at times , but I fully know the reality…

[68] Posted by FrVan on 10-11-2007 at 03:35 PM • top

this document is an example of why all is not well

Not sure how one concludes that.  This document is an example of what Episcopalians teach to children, so it must be good and wholesome.

[69] Posted by Chazaq on 10-11-2007 at 03:38 PM • top

More names and some more contact info.  These are some of the folks who appear to have signed this statement.  For Standing Committee and Diocesan Council e-mail addresses see the leadership page linked in the comments above.

Standing Committee
Carol Clark (07)
Sue Jamison (07)
Myrtle Weston (07)
Ellie Burgess (08)
Linda Piper   (08) President
Marcia Franz (09)
Hazel Satterly (09)

Core Team
I haven’t found a list of members, but here’s an explanation re: what it is (from and ENS article). Kelsey “also formed what he referred to as the Core Team, consisting of the regional missioners, the non-ordained diocesan operations coordinator and the bishop, which serves as a collaborative episcopacy.”

Core Team Contact:  Jane Cisluycis (e-mail is on leadership page)

DIOCESAN COUNCIL 2007
ex officio members
President, Standing Committee         Linda Piper
Diocesan Treasurer                     Dick Graybill
President, ECW                         Linda Vollwerth
Chair, Commission on Ministry         Manuel Padilla
Eastern Region                           Lu Swetz
North Central Region                     Dan Carpenter
South Central Region                     Bonnie Turner
Western Region                           Al Pieper

Members at Large                                    
until 2007                               Fran Gardner
until 2008                               Warren Maki
until 2009                               Arlene Gordanier

General Convention Deputation
http://rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/deputations2006.html#NMi

Diocese of Northern Michigan
Lay.
  1. Ms. Jan Buchman.
  2. Patricia Micklow, Esq.. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) new
  3. Mr. Judd Spray. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) new
  4. Richard Graybill, Esq..
  5. Ms. Peg Lippart. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) alternate new

Clergy.
  1. The Rev. Rayford Ray. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) Chair
  2. The Rev. Dr. Kevin L. Thew Forrester. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
  3. The Rev. Anita Wingert. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) new
  4. The Rev. Bonnie Turner. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
  5. The Rev. Dr. Mark Engle. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) alternate

[70] Posted by The_Elves on 10-11-2007 at 03:40 PM • top

I noticed on their newspaper that there is no mention of a bishop being responsible to oversee what is published, and that this document was not signed by a bishop—or interim bishop. Also I seem to have noticed that it was written/passed in August, before the HOB’s met in September…
Note to Chazaq: Not all Episcopalians….

[71] Posted by FrVan on 10-11-2007 at 03:44 PM • top

Catholic Mom wrote: “But it wasn’t until a year ago that I discovered that weirdness turns out to be an OFFICIAL trait of the Episcopal church. Or is it just that I live in NJ??”.  Mom-having lived in the ‘Peoples’ Republic’ for most of my life before escaping a couple of years ago, I’d say that the answer is BOTH.

[72] Posted by Bob K. on 10-11-2007 at 03:47 PM • top

Man that’s some digging…are you Elves or Dwarves? wink

[73] Posted by Rocks on 10-11-2007 at 03:47 PM • top

Hey Rocks, all of those names except the GC Deputies were on one page on the Dio. website:  http://www.upepiscopal.org/frames/leadershipframe.html
(that’s where you can find a lot of the e-mail addresses)

The only effort we put in was to hop on over to Louie Crew’s website since we knew Louie would have the full list of Gen Conv. deputies with their e-mail addresses.

And then it was simply a matter of cutting and pasting. 
See, you too could be an elf.  It was all of 5-6 minutes work, if that.  Ya just gotta know where to look!

[74] Posted by The_Elves on 10-11-2007 at 03:52 PM • top

Fr Van.  There IS NO Bishop in Northern Michigan at the moment.
Bishop Jim Kelsey was tragically killed in a car accident in early June.
If you look carefully at page 1 of the same Sept. Dio newspaper, you’ll see an article on a proposed transitional bishop…

[75] Posted by The_Elves on 10-11-2007 at 03:53 PM • top

One more post and I’m outta here for the night.  But did anyone notice the aptness of today’s OT reading in the context of this post?  Kendall posted a few verses over on T19 this morning:

From the Morning Scripture Readings
Posted by Kendall Harmon

Moreover Josi’ah put away the mediums and the wizards and the teraphim and the idols and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, that he might establish the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilki’ah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

Before him there was no king like him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; nor did any like him arise after him.
2 Kings 23:24-25

We really need a Josiah in ECUSA and Northern Michigan!!

[76] Posted by The_Elves on 10-11-2007 at 03:59 PM • top

I realized the Bishop had been killed, and I saw the article about the interim…But what I don’t understand is why these other groups felt it appropriate to answer in place of a bishop. I know that they are the de facto acting ecclesiastical authority until the diocese gets their interim, but it still seems inappropriate—- and, especially so given that it was a response written prior to the HOB’s meeting…I also think it strange the diocesan newspaper would carry it.

[77] Posted by FrVan on 10-11-2007 at 04:01 PM • top

not because we are bad, but because we are blind to the beauty of creation and ourselves.

Yupper Bob ‘ere. 

Like, dis wuld make dat Pelagius hartik blanche, eh?  Besides, we got dem TQ Fall up yr, so its dubyus to ‘srt dat yuppers can be blind to de bewty ‘f creash’n.  Even dem citified trolls no bet’r dan dat, eh? 

Dem toots too, studien’ engr’n up at dat Mich-Tech.  Dey come ‘ere for dat bewty.  Dunno what dat der Pisski Bishup is talk’n ‘bout.  Sem to me dat somewn ws sleep’n in der seminary scholin’. 

C’mon Mayble.  Time for det famly nite down at de Baptist church.  Better start round’n up dem kiddies o’ orn, ‘eh?

[78] Posted by J Eppinga on 10-11-2007 at 04:08 PM • top

I also think it strange the diocesan newspaper would carry it.

It is STRANGE Fr Van, and it is what they believe.  Why should the HoB meeting have any effect on their beliefs…oh, wait, you mean they were supposed to disguise their beliefs after the Hob met and lie like so many of the bishops are.  Oh, sorry, did I give away the plan?

Father Van As +KJS was in diocese earlier this month it brings up the question: What did your “strong christian” the PB say to them about this.  Can’t say as we’ve heard anything.  Where is that famous leadership?  Is she simply clueless again?

RSB

PS You and your flock remain in my daily prayers.

 

RSB

[79] Posted by R S Bunker on 10-11-2007 at 04:12 PM • top

As my college age son says, this diocesan statement is ” PITIFUL, SIMPLY PITIFUL”.  I’m a boomer,—BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, DON’T WANT TO GO BACK. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, DON’T WANT TO GO BACK——let’s now all say this together—-BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, DON’T WANT TO GO BACK.    Now that’s better, fellow aging boomers in N. Michigan—You—who did not experience this garbage back in the 60’s when at least,—you then had the excuse of being young. Now you are just foolish old geezers trying to capture what most of us have already lived thru ,and rejected as ” flower power” fluff. Any one for a chorus of ” Kum ba ya, my lord, kum ba ya”.

Oh, Lord, deliver us from pretend hippy boomers in Northern Michigan. AMEN—- And all this time I thought the DEAD HEADS all lived in Eugene. PITIFUL, SIMPLY PITIFUL—-LoL!!!!!!!!!!!

[80] Posted by Forever Anglican on 10-11-2007 at 04:16 PM • top

Unreal.  Where does an individual learn this type of “theology.”  Do they teach this crap in seminary?

[81] Posted by TX Ranger on 10-11-2007 at 04:22 PM • top

If the leadership of the Diocese of N. Michigan is right one wonder why God bothered with the Incarnation, the life and teachng of Jesus, His precious death and passion, His rising again, and his Ascension, or why it was necessary to send the Holy Spirit. If indeed the New Testament faith is all about our being gods by nature, why a baptismal theology at all -why baptism come to that - why the church or all the complexity of ecclesiastical life? Surely we may all be gods under our own tree and perhaps band together for social action in much less expensive clubs than parish churches.

It’s all sentimental nonsense. If it were possible to drop the authors of such twaddle into Dafur for a week or even live with those in our slums whose children are victims of gang violence, they might discover just how godlike human beings can be.

There’s nothing new in all this. Before both world wars there were significant groups of Christians who devoutly believed in the essential goodness of humans, who merely needed organizing in good works to transform the world. Then came the slaughter of millions in a world driven mad by crazed, evil madmen. Sinless Christianity is a gospel for affluent, protected, middle class white people in an affluent, protected, middle class white church, who have time on their hands and need a cause to follow. Many of the causes espoused are good, but they are not salvic and not ultimate.

[82] Posted by wvparson on 10-11-2007 at 04:50 PM • top

Well said—wvparson. This is exactly what is going on in the Church. It is pitiful—simply pitiful.

[83] Posted by Forever Anglican on 10-11-2007 at 04:57 PM • top

I have decided to start the “listening process” but I haven’t read anything Christian yet in this piece.

[84] Posted by Dallas Priest on 10-11-2007 at 05:00 PM • top

Greg: Thank you for publishing the Palate Cleanser early this week.

As you see, it has been a big hit and drawn a good-natured crowd.

[85] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 05:08 PM • top

If indeed the New Testament faith is all about our being gods by nature,

When you think about what our “nature” has done - thank God that God is not like us and that we are not gods.

[86] Posted by oscewicee on 10-11-2007 at 05:13 PM • top

“In Northern Michigan, Everybody is God”

And not just for 15 minutes, either.

[87] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 06:01 PM • top

What other gems we might find in the archives of the diocese or Mother Rise Thew Forrester’s Church Hiawathaland?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

In case you’re concerned that ECUSA is rejecting and overly stodgy, check out this notice on page 3, to the right of the Enneagram Series:

“Doors: Creating Worship that is Holy, Inclusive, & Inviting will be offered September 15… at St Paul’s, Marquette. The day will include an “Explore Eucharist” and afternoon workships [sic] on useful and inviting service leaflets, incorporating alternative liturgical practices, creating an alternative Eucharist, and working with theology and language in worship.”

Just think of what the rulers of this diocese might consider “Holy, Inclusive, and Inviting.” Or how exactly they would make service leaflets “useful and inviting.” Or how “alternative” it would all get.

Does The Onion have an Upper Peninsula bureau?

[88] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 06:14 PM • top

Circular logic - it’s a lot of work without getting you anywhere.

[89] Posted by Connie Sandlin on 10-11-2007 at 06:29 PM • top

Oops, that was supposed to be for David’s caption contest.  Wrong thread.  Sorry.

[90] Posted by Connie Sandlin on 10-11-2007 at 06:31 PM • top

The theology of the diocese shall now be carried on by 40 SPECIALLY TRAINED ECUADORIAN MOUNTAIN LLAMAS

I am sure these llamas will do a better job than the current leadership.  Why do we need to be baptized if we are all gods to begin with?  It seems that we could save a lot of time if we just glory in our Christness and skip the sacraments completely.  Gods don’t need grace anyway; they dispense it. 

Greg, this has to be the freshest new hell you have had to deal with this year.

[91] Posted by terrafirma on 10-11-2007 at 06:43 PM • top

OK, here’s an example of what I mean by “weird.”  In my local paper today it states that a certain woman has been appointed “Writer in Residence” at the local Episcopal Church.  She will have an office in the church and will be available on “Thursdays from 10 to 2” to talk to anyone who wishes to discuss “the artist’s life, the connection between one’s spiritual journey and creativity, or to discuss a work in progress.”  She will also teach a course on creative writing at the church.  I mean…that’s nice.  But what other churches have a “Writer in Residence” to discuss the connection between one’s spiritual journey and creativity???

[92] Posted by Catholic Mom on 10-11-2007 at 06:43 PM • top

From John Perkins, M. Div. Converted to Eastern Orthodoxy ten years ago: From an Orthodox perspective you can, with slight adjustments, really make a case for the elements in these quotes that suggest the immanence of God in his creation. Orthodox are Semi-Pelagian and panentheist, meaning that God is wholly transcendent but at the same time paradoxically immanent within his creation to its furthest extent, and this is founded upon solid Patristic theology in relation to Biblical exegesis.

[93] Posted by OrthoJohn on 10-11-2007 at 06:49 PM • top

No MI has a long and interesting history of emphasizing the baptismal covenant and that all Christians are “ministers” by viture of their baptism.  That’s related to their isolatedness and their smallness - every baptized person up there must be active - there’s only a handful of clergy and they can’t do all the ministry. 

Just esplainin’; not agreeing

[94] Posted by RealityCheck on 10-11-2007 at 07:03 PM • top

Worship that is Holy, Inclusive, & Inviting
will be offered September 15, 10 am - 4 pm at St Paul’s, Marquette. The day will include an “Explore Eucharist” and afternoon workships on useful and inviting service leaflets, incorporating alternative liturgical practices, creating an alternative Eucharist, and working with theology and language in worship.

This gem was also in the diocesan newsletter.

[95] Posted by Piedmont on 10-11-2007 at 07:10 PM • top

Not a single mention of reincarnation. 

Those heathens!

What is this world coming to???

YBIC,
Posse Rider

[96] Posted by Posse Rider on 10-11-2007 at 07:13 PM • top

...workships…

  Are these approved by the Coast Guard?  grin grin

[97] Posted by Piedmont on 10-11-2007 at 07:17 PM • top

Friends-
It gets really cold in Northern Michigan.  Perhaps their brains had an early freeze.

[98] Posted by Fr.Ed on 10-11-2007 at 07:27 PM • top

They must be putting something in the pasties.

[99] Posted by Piedmont on 10-11-2007 at 07:53 PM • top

“Not a single mention of reincarnation”—-Posse Rider

No need to redo what always is and never ceases.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

“It gets really cold in Northern Michigan. Perhaps their brains had an early freeze”—-Fr. Ed

But note that other Yupers do not become similarly impaired. (Same goes for most people in Canada and Greenland.)

Nor do Yupers show much interest in what this mini-diocese has to offer.

[100] Posted by Irenaeus on 10-11-2007 at 08:31 PM • top

Om mani padme hum

[101] Posted by Old Soldier on 10-11-2007 at 09:21 PM • top

Almost 12 hours and no Worthy Opponents yet. Could it be that even the occasional Troll is hiding from this?

[102] Posted by john1 on 10-11-2007 at 11:11 PM • top

Dear Friends,
This is the bitter fruit of romantic pantheism in TEC. It is an exaggerated but true representation of what has been and is being taught in the seminaries. For this reason, I think orthodox folks in TEC have to ask themselves: where will my parish, my diocese (even if they are currently orthodox) be in ten years’ time?

Now let me register one “heretical” comment of my own. I do not see, as Dr. Toon does, that there is a straight line from the 1979 BCP to this fluff. Read the rest of the 1979 baptismal service about renouncing Satan and the spiritual forces of wickedness (“principalities and powers in high places” - could this be referring to 815 2nd Av?), turning to Jesus as Savior, putting your whole trust in him. One may question whether a commitment to social justice is on a par with a promise to proclaim the Good News and to love one’s neighbor, but I think a good case can be made that such a commitment can be part of an conversion of the whole person. Look, the TEC establishment has been quite willing to hermeneut the Bible to its own ends. Why is it not the case they can do the same with the Prayer Book?

Surely, the new Anglican Church in North America will have to revisit a number of issues with regard to formularies, and I have no objection to beginning with the 1662 BCP as a standard. But I think there are many elements of the 1979 Book which are consistent with the apostolic faith, and I have seen many congregations that were faithful while using that Book in its plain sense.
(Truth in packaging. I was a student of Massey Shepherd, who was not a romantic pantheist.)

[103] Posted by Stephen Noll on 10-11-2007 at 11:23 PM • top

Two of the deputies served on legislative committees at GC2006:  Rayford Ray served on Church in Small Communities, and Bonnie Turner served on Education.

[104] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 10-12-2007 at 06:18 AM • top

Trinity Episcopal Church on Mackinac Island is supported by Ministry Development Coordinator, Kevin Thew Forrester, and Missioner Anita Wingert.  This statement is on their website:  “People of all faiths and denominations are always welcome at Trinity and invited to share our Eucharist.”

[105] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 10-12-2007 at 06:35 AM • top

Thanks to Louie Crew, I found the seminaries attended by three of the deputies:
The Rev. Dr. Mark Engle, Seabury Western MDiv 73 Univ of the South DMin 82
The Rev. Rayford Ray, Nashotah MDiv 86
The Rev. Dr. Kevin Forrester, CUA 84 CUA PhD 92 CDSP MTS 93

[106] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 10-12-2007 at 07:03 AM • top

This isn’t pantheism, nor Buddhism.  It’s Mormon theology.  We’re all gods.

[107] Posted by loonpond on 10-12-2007 at 07:47 AM • top

Addendum: We need to pray for the people of N. MI.

And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.


Mark 6:34

[108] Posted by loonpond on 10-12-2007 at 08:00 AM • top

BTW, Prof. Fr. Noll, I mentioned Dr. Toon’s work in reference to his clear pointing out the directions the baptismal covenant idea meaders; I started out with ‘79 and went back to ‘28 because both were available in my parish, noticed some troubling focuses, learned more, then found Dr. Toon. I do support the PBS though. And you could hardly sound heretical ; - )

For those who want to meander into troubling waters, the door is wide open. Our faithful teachers must help the sheep stay in the right grazing field. And thanks for your work, from visiting First Fridays in D. C. to Pittsburg to colleges in Uganda.

[109] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 10-12-2007 at 08:38 AM • top

Almost 12 hours and no Worthy Opponents yet. Could it be that even the occasional Troll is hiding from this?

I suspect that even the looniest of the loon left revisionista crowd sometimes have a problem with defending the indefensible.

the snarkster

[110] Posted by the snarkster on 10-12-2007 at 08:45 AM • top

We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God…

Anyone in Northern Michigan still believe this?!  We need to hear from you.  Make your voices heard!!!

Elves,
I would like to think that there is still one (me), and I am hoping to meet others.  I haven’t read through the thread yet, so perhaps I will meet some others here. Have had a job related move that is an ecclesiastic leap from the frying pan (W. Mich) into the fire (N. Mich).  Perhaps the article above will give some indication of why it is so difficult to find a parish.  My observation so far is that the people in the pews here are in shell shock, and that what you read in the statement is the work of the standing committee and the relatively few clergy up here.  But if you think this is bad, you should listen to some of the sermons preached in this part of the world.  Do please pray for me, as I am not up to the task ahead without the Lord’s help.
TJ

[111] Posted by tjmcmahon on 10-12-2007 at 09:05 AM • top

The Yoopers call people on the lower peninsula trolls because they live under the bridge.

[112] Posted by Piedmont on 10-12-2007 at 09:38 AM • top

tjm - it’s gonna be tough, but there must be some. things have been eroding for some time. i’ve prayed for you and will rememebr to pray again.

[113] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 10-12-2007 at 10:00 AM • top

tjm,
Be sure your up to date on all of your shots.

I thought of Paul’s letter to Timothy when I read your post. Our prayers are with you and those who continue the struggle during the darkest of hours.
May God grant you peace.

[114] Posted by birminghamer on 10-12-2007 at 10:22 AM • top

TJ, prayers for you in the wasteland of northern Michigan!

[115] Posted by oscewicee on 10-12-2007 at 12:04 PM • top

Wow!  Have these guys ever read the Bible?

[116] Posted by Jim the Puritan on 10-12-2007 at 03:22 PM • top

Wow!  Have these guys ever read the Bible?

  From my observation, they seem to use a highly edited variant of the NRSV (all teh non-inclusive parts removed).  And they take the occasional liberty with the BCP (as is apparent with the rather unusual take on the baptismal conventant).
  I am tempted to crash the diocesan convention, but might get thrown out if they discover that I wear a cross (and worse, a cross with Christ on it, something I have yet to find in the local church).  On the other hand, I can probably get away with my AAC pin, as I doubt anyone at the convention will have ever seen one before.

[117] Posted by tjmcmahon on 10-12-2007 at 04:46 PM • top

This isn’t Christian theology, it’s grade-A New Age woo-woo.

Apparently at one point in her “spiritual journey” Shirley MacLaine pranced along a California beach shouting “I am God, I am God!!”  It has taken TEC a while to attain her level of zaniness, but they’ve clearly arrived.

[118] Posted by st. anonymous on 10-13-2007 at 11:24 AM • top

St. a: Thanks for the chuckle. Now I can go out and find some coffee. Bob

[119] Posted by Bob K. on 10-13-2007 at 12:08 PM • top

St. A, thanks for the explanation.  I now understand that the pew bibles in the diocese have been replaced with Ms McLaine’s best-selling Nietzsche for Complete Airheads: a book of really bad self-indulgent poetry

Doubtless the Committee on Music & Liturgy will recommend that this substitution take place nationwide at GC09…

[120] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 10-13-2007 at 12:23 PM • top

Oh my, what kind of bad stuff have these folks been smok’in??

[121] Posted by B. Hunter on 10-16-2007 at 11:34 AM • top

Stephen Noll makes an important point: the BCP 1979 is not the cause of this self-indulgent theology. Drs. Massey Shepherd, Boone Porter, Robert Greenfield would never tolerate this semi-New Age drivel as a true and accurate reflection of the Baptismal Theology of the 1979 BCP. It comes from—time-on-their-hands white folk who have nothing else to do. except to hid out in N Mic and play Peter Pan, and Paul and Mary too.

Yes, one of the five statements in the present prayer book baptismal liturgy mentions justice and dignity, which is not inappropriate for an orthodox christian to practice as fulfilling one aspect of their baptism. But the liberals always like to pick and choose for their convenience. In N Mic, it seems the promise to continue in the Apostles’ teaching and fellowship is forgotten. And the prayer that the candidate for Baptism will be kept in the Faith and Communion of God’s Holy Catholic Church is negated by their action. That comes awful close to what is called hypocrisy in the ” Good Book”. Pitiful, simply pitiful!!!

[122] Posted by Forever Anglican on 10-16-2007 at 04:47 PM • top

My, my.  You first have to live in Michigan to understand Northern Michigan (i.e. the UP).  Those folks have their brains frozen for part of the year so why would you think they could think clearly.  Some of them (the general population) think they really are a part of Wisconsin, or even a separate state.  Either case would be okay with me.  It also seems the dio of mich has a bunch of wild thinkers too: to wit: the worshiping of the mdg.  It seems that when people put their heads in the darker places in this world that the fumes and cold alter their thinking.  Be gentle with those non-orthodox folks.  They need all the help we can give them.

[123] Posted by catwrangler on 11-13-2007 at 12:44 PM • top

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