Bishop Andrus—How Could You? [Content Warning]

From I Peter 2:

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him—  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
.  .  .  .  .
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.  Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.  Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Colossians 3:1-15

It was actually a picture of ECUSA at the Washington, DC, “pro-choice” march, with their banner held high, in 2002 or 2003 that shocked me into realizing that the church was no longer interested in following Jesus. While that march was not as blatant in its sexuality as the Gay Pride parade (and most large cities have these now—while San Francisco may be the most obvious, there are public sexual displays at most of them), the fact that ECUSA was supporting abortion began my process of discovery on what was going on. This just continues the march to Moloch.

Dignity.  Integrity.  God is doing a new thing.

No Christian church, of whatever sort, should be a part of such a celebration and promotion of sexual brokenness.

But they are not Christians!  I have seen this type of stuff from the LGBT crowd for over forty years, but I guess there are a lot of Christian leaders who were not aware of the extent of the depravity. 

“who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.” (Rom. 1:32)
Any one who knew of the sure horrible judgment of those who practice such things and/or applaude them would not want to coddle, cheer and sooth them but would try to lead them to repentance.  Anything less is treason against the throne of God.

More sackcloth and ashes….

Great job team.  I’m telling you that this video could be presented Sunday at services to my old parish and it would be dismissed.  That’s how far gone this church is.

The managers of Stand Firm in Faith should not have edited the pictures. They are ugly reminders of the crucifixion of our Lord by a sick and unholy church. Is this what TEC plans to teach our children and grandchildren?

This movie demonstrates who TEC represents, and America’s contribution to the Anglican Communion. It is a celebration of the new, inclusive TEC. Archbishop Andrus represents TEC as they are.

PB Schori owes the Christians of this country and of all denominations an apology and public repentance. Bishop Andrus should step down as an insult to the clergy for joyously participating in this orgy. They have betrayed our Lord and Savior.

Jesus was not a radical and hippie, he was not a sex pervert, and he certainly wouldn’t have been an exhibitionist of the Church of Perpetual Indulgence. PB Shori seeks to bond our faith with the Brothers and Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, when they support this hedonism. This parade is TEC and what they want for your congregations across the country and around the world.

There is no excuse for this total damnation and mockery of the Gospel. This is not ministry, it is sexual misconduct. There is no excuse; TECers might claim to be a people of love, but they are clearly supporting a pornographic lifestyle in this video. Don’t tell me I am a gay-basher. This is public sexual misconduct by a self-called church.

I only hope the Primates of the Anglican Communion see this video and place TEC on the outside of all Christianity until they return with a sincere repentance and concrete corrective actions.

Very Sad.

I’m glad they did edit the pictures - I would not have watched an unedited version.

Every bishop, priest, and vestry member in the country should get and unedited copy! This church is sick beyond comprehension - and I truly am not freaked-out! something must be done about this “church.”

Are priests involved in such displays in other cities too? Where?

Dr. N. where have you been?

I would be equally mortified if the church participated in a comparable heterosexual pride parade, with all the participants being heterosexual. 
Most Episcopalians in the southeast don’t even know what polyamory is.  The bishop’s active participation in the parade makes one wonder if he approves of polyamory.

I certainly knew gay-pride parades departed from Episcopal Churches, such as one near here in Atlanta, but I hadn’t seen them. 

I see this is the first time a bishop has been involved.

I didn’t realize they were like this, because I have always been supportive of GLBT folks about me in church. I guess I have sheltered myself in business and church work and not looked at activism in the GLBT movement.

This is appalling. It is public pornography supported at the highest levels by TEC! I am glad I got out and am now going to be very careful in my search for a new congregation.

Jill, most Anglicans in the west including the ABC, have not dealt with the PB and the divinity of Christ.

Jill,  you are right. I am learning about polyamory tonight, but you’ve seen a few of the words my limited mind could engender in my state of shock.

Dr. N, see here for a description of a parade with a (presumably open) eucharist with an episcopal priest from the Diocese of LA as homilist and ELCA priest as celebrant.

Also, see the nice picture of Bp Sergio Carranza in the Gay pride parade here. 

Here’s one from Diocese of Rochester:
http://saint-marks-episcopal-church.com/db2/00192/saint-marks-episcopal-church.com/_uimages/Gay3.JPG

Here’s Atlanta:
http://www.stbartsatlanta.org/NEWSEVENTS/GayPrideParticipation.htm

Here’s a story from the diocese of Massachusetts newsletter:
http://www.diomass.org/enews/2007June.html

Pennsylvania:
http://www.stphilipsnewhope.org/2007pride.html

I couldn’t find the pictures of the Minnesota parade which also had fully nude men in this “family” event.

Also, Jill, I agree I would be equally horrified if this were a heterosexual pride parade.

Quiz time: How radical is Marc Andrus?

Bonus points to the first commenter who correctly names the diocese for which Andrus was, until very recently, suffragan bishop.

Alabama

I am not aware that Bp. Alexander participated in the Atlanta gay pride parade.  However, it was on the diocesan website.  Judging [url=“http://www.slrobertson.com/ga-gay-pride.htm
“]from[/url] stock photos, it too qualifies as inappropriate for church involvement.

Amazing. This stuff didn’t even hit my radar screen in my concerns about the church. My concerns were limited to the progressive hijacking of TEC and how long-time friends began suppressing my ability to grow within the church.

I only started reading here about a week ago after quietly leaving TEC.

Much of what I find here is not discussed within the congregation - “all is well,” but I sensed it wasn’t.

I see opportunity now that I am out of it.

Lee Parker,

Bingo.

Your bonus points are in the mail (along with your fat IRD check).

Anglican Mainstream recently posted a description of a similar event held last month in San Francisco that contains links to graphic photos.  Don’t follow the links unless you are prepared to see crucifix-themed sex toys.

http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/index.php/2007/10/12/we-are-being-conditioned-but-see-the-end-result-please/

I just hope N. Young will remember….....  Play it Curtis!  How about a T-Shirt?

Interesting how these people like to compare their “struggle” to the Civil Rights marches of the ‘60’s—no person on Earth can choose his/her skin color, but we can all choose our behaviors.

The participants, if I remember correctly, of past civil rights marches always marched in their Sunday best—suits, shirts and ties, dresses, hats.  Not g-strings, S&M;paraphernalia, pasties, leather, studs, chains, tittie tops, or bare breasts.  This makes Mardi Gras look like Kindergarten class. 

And we’re supposed to take this seriously—in the 60’s it looked like good, hardworking, decent people standing up for a just cause, as opposed to the contemporary pornographic version of Ringling Bros. and Barnum and Bailey. 

There’s a reason why my dear black friends in the South become livid when they hear this compared to their true struggle. 

Sodom and Gomorrah—don’t just be dysfunctional, CELEBRATE being dysfunctional. 

God help them and God help us all…

CS

I heard while driving a few weeks ago about the Miller Brewing sponsorship of the S. Perpet. Indul. event in San Francisco - a poster of the last supper with sex toys, I recall. Is there a link to that? I haven’t seen it.

RE: “(along with your fat IRD check) . . .”

[sob]

BTW, JGSMD I only know these things and only care to know these things because of you.

I found the link to the poster.

http://www.folsomstreetfair.com/images/fsf_posters/FSF2007_poster_print_ns_800px.jpg

What did I tell you about bogarting the IRD jack, G²?

As I mentioned in a recent <a >article</a>, Gene Robinson has given opportunity for the whole world and Anglican Communion to glimpse the gay culture of the Episcopal Church. I also mentioned in that article that the prevalence of homosexual priests is as big a problem as that of a homosexual bishop.

I would like to encourage Stand Firm or someone else to collect photographs of clergy “couples” from various diocesan photo directories and perhaps note other clergy who have openly declared themselves to be in a homosexual partnership. This collection might be more accessible and equally telling for the part of the world that does not yet have the bandwidth, not to menton the desire, to watch streaming video.

Prophet Micaiah commented: “But they are not Christians!” BINGO! I dont care what vestments they wear or what church office they hold; “ye shall know them by their fruits”, said Jesus. Well, I think we can see how rotten the fruit has become. Kinda reminds me of the parable of the good and rotton fruit shown by the LORD to the prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 24). Read it and apply it to the current crisis in todays TEC. The similarities between the situations then and now are rather chilling. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked…” (Gal. 6:7)

The article in Anglican Mainstream below certainly fits with my experience in TEC.

http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/index.php/2007/10/12/we-are-being-conditioned-but-see-the-end-result-please/

I need to rest and regroup.

  the prevalence of homosexual priests is as big a problem as that of a homosexual bishop. 

Exactly right, Stephen.  It has bothered me for years that we (orthodox) have stood by mostly silently while hundreds of openly gay and lesbian candidates were ordained as deacons and priests.  TEC is now reaping the harvest of that infiltration by the evil one—clearly evident in this disgraceful video of TEC on center stage.

I live just south of San Francisco, so I don’t need to view the video.  I’ve seen it all before.  There is an interesting verse in Leviticus:18, and it’s not the one certain people love to hate.  It’s verse 3, and reads as follows.

“You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan where I am sending you; you shall not walk in their statutes”.

After this, the laundry list of you-shall-this and you-shall-not-that begins. In other words, Leviticus:18 can be read, first, as a historical account of what the popular culture of the Canaanite world was back then, followed second, by God’s admonishment to the Israelites, not to allow themselves to be pulled into it.

The sons of Eli wreak havoc.  But God will not be mocked.

Branford,
My eyes were also opened when I saw the same picture you saw, a “picture of ECUSA at the Washington, DC, “pro-choice” march, with their banner held high, in 2002 or 2003”. 
And then when I read an article in “Episcopal Life”, entitled “No Need to Apologize” in which the organizers defended their position and proclaimed that Pro-Choice was the official policy of the Episcopal Church (how dare anyone criticize them), I was really disillusioned with those who lead the church.
Now we have another sacrilege in Gay Pride parades and I am sure they don‘t intend to stop there.
I Pray that God will lead His Church out of this madness and that we will find a way to follow His lead.

Well, really, perhaps we’re being unfair to these sensitive, spiritual people.  Why, the very source of the <a >Last Supper parody</a> <a >explains</a>:

Folsom Street Events acknowledges that many of the people in the leather and fetish communities are spiritual and that this poster image is a way of expressing that side of the community’s interests and beliefs. This year, Folsom Street Fair is dedicated to “San Francisco Values,” previously used against the San Francisco community for its support of sexual diversity and now used by Folsom Street Events as a way to reclaim power by the fetish community.

There, now, don’t you feel better already?  Aren’t you reassured?

Be sure you look up the article in Anglican Mainstream (link provided by Dr. N. above) and then look up the links that are given there—if you can stand to see the extent of the inverted connection between this “leather” lifestyle and religion.  Go to the site with the photos and descriptions of certain sex toys (I won’t even name them) that are fashioned to represent Christ on the Cross and the Christ Child.  I had not understood before the way that outright sacrilege enters into this sexual “underworld.” You’ll find it hard to believe.
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/index.php/2007/10/12/we-are-being-conditioned-but-see-the-end-result-please/

I awoke this morning so troubled. The words keep going through my head: “40 Days of Discernment”  “40 Days of Discernment” “40 Days of Discernment” Is that how long it takes for congregations to open up the issues and vote 90% to leave TEC?

If the Christians in the pews of TEC churches - families, elderly, and all struggling with the challenges of contemporary life - would review the links listed above, there would be no question about why TEC should be expelled from the Anglican Communion. How long can priests and vestries tell their flocks to focus on ministry and ignore the sinfulness of the corporate church?

A wonderful article on how to pray for a desolate church.

Hat tip:  Binky and Karen

I also went to the Anglican Mainstream essay referred to by Dr. N, but I could not bring myself to view the many pictures the article referenced. It seemed the homosexual community for a few years had cleaned up its image. I believe there was a concerted effort to remove from the public eye the undercurrent of absolute depravity and debauchery involved in its culture. The homosexual community is becoming emboldened by its successes in its integration into the mainstream culture and the blinders are coming off again.

Is sado-masochism or fetishism integrally tied to their culture? I don’t know, but if one abandons historic norms and tries to recreate new ones but in a context of “freeing sexual expression”, the results are not going to be very restrictive. Anything goes will rule the day in the end.

“If the Christians in the pews of TEC churches - families, elderly, and all struggling with the challenges of contemporary life - would review the links listed above, there would be no question about why TEC should be expelled from the Anglican Communion.”

Dr. N.  It is sad to say but I don’t believe that they would go past a few gasps and comments.

Last year my husband was with a group who unknowingly wound up in the same park in Seattle where the gay pride parade was ending.  He said the thing he found most horrifying was the number of parents who had brought their little children so that they would learn to be inclusive and unprejudiced.  These little tots were watching the whole spectacle and happily waving their gay pride flags!

I have complained before about Anglican bishops attending such parades, given the obscenity and degeneracy that are usually on display.  The defense offered by revisionists like MerseyMike was along the lines of, “Well, just because you march in a parade doesn’t mean you agree with everything in it.”

Uh-huh.  So would MM and his ilk march in a parade with skinheads, or the Ku Klux Klan?

Does anyone remember the fraud being perpetrated at GC 2003 that this was all about loving, holy, life-long committed relationships?  That has long since been forgotten as the “standard” for support of the “new thing” TEC has foisted on us.  This video shows the new standard—and it reflects the absolute rejection of the Bible as the guide for holy living.

This is sad stuff indeed. But ... I think we need to beware of assuming that all gays are like the exhibitionists in this parade.

A church that stands by and lets this all happen without condemnation (one might say in some quarters there is actually approbation, viz. Andrus) is indeed a D E S O L A T E church.  This is what our “shepherds” are drawing us all towards?! Not me and my family (Joshua 24:15).  Kyrie eleison!!!

Oscewicee: it’s true that all gays are not like the ones you see here.  Some of them have even complained publically about the sleazy nature of Gay Pride parades.

That said, anyone—gay or straight—who participates in such an event is putting their personal stamp of approval on the degenerate culture it represents.  And a priest or bishop participating is doing more than that: he/she is making a formal statement of support for that culture on behalf of the church.

I’m waiting…......................................................................

Still waiting….....................................................................

Sigh. I guess no one from the LBGT Revisionista crowd is going to step up to the plate and offer a spirited defense of this loving monogamous garbage. Damn, I feel like I need to go take a shower after this filth. Someone needs to get a copy of this to Can’terbury a.s.a.p.

the snarkster

I can well remember my “non-judgemental” days when I was a good little open-minded live and let live type of a person. Until, that is, I was exposed to a little too much of this kind of stuff. Saw too many miserable depressed and addicted “out and proud” gay people. Was propositioned too many times by gay men and experienced too many attempts to convert me by gay women. I was called a “fish” a “hag” and a “breeder” more times than I care to recall.

I was not a Christian at the time and certainly not a prude but deep in my heart, I came to realize that something was very wrong. Not that these people were awful in and of themselves, but that something was very disordered about their lifestyle and orientation.

Sad to say, this video comes as no surprise to me at all. But I am thankful that I was able to shake off my indoctrination and see this kind of thing for what it is.

I agree with you completely, St. Anonymous, about the participants in such a show, and the bishop’s shameful appearance in this circus. I just didn’t want to see these folks being taken as representative of all gays.

oscewicee,

I have worked and prayed by GLBT folks and their partners for many years and we have been mutually supportive of each other in the challenges life has brought us both inside and outside parish life. I am very troubled to think those about me want this image of the GLBT community.

If I exposed myself on a street corner I would be arrested. Here the priests are blessing such behavior, and Bishop Andrus is acting like a grand marshall or king (queen) in the parade.

Can I now see the table set for Holy Eucharist without thinking of sex toys? During the distribution of the sacrament, will the priest hand me a condom and say - the Body of Christ given for you?

Someone needs to get a copy of this to Can’terbury a.s.a.p.

Yes, surely he’ll remember +Marc as the man who stood up behing +VJR and really gave it to him.

RSB

I agree with you completely, St. Anonymous, about the participants in such a show, and the bishop’s shameful appearance in this circus. I just didn’t want to see these folks being taken as representative of all gays.

And I hope Andrus won’t be taken as representative of all Episcopalians.  But that is the message he is sending.

Elizabeth Kaeton wrote a good piece (I believe it was shared here on SF) stating the inconsistency of pornography with Christian life.  I guess the LGBT just mean heterosexual pornography.

What is “it” may I ask?

oscewicee,

Having said what I said, I also want to say that I agree with you that not all gay people are like this. But this kind of thing is so predominant that its hard to find even seemingly normal, low key gay couples who are stay at home fuddy duddies and in completely monogamous and faithful relationships. For most in this community, monogamy and committment and fidelity have been redefined to mean, I live with only one man and spend most of my time with him. In short, it has come to mean a kind of favoritism for just one other person. Sexual deviation and adventurism is a part of the relationship all too often.

I have a heart for all gay people but especially for the ones who are quiet and otherwise entirely traditional in their values. They have been sold a bill of goods ie gay liberation, gay equality etc is a good thing and will bring an end to the excesses of the past. What it has in fact done is that all of this stuff has instead been brought out into the open and shoved down the throat of the mainstream by activists unafraid to use the guilt trip notion that in order to be truly tolerant, one must accept difference unconditionally. This is the proverbial cat being let out of the bag, once traditional values have been undermined.

Yup, nothing new here, I’m neither shock nor surprised but I remember when Queer Nation was running around (the link is to a Wikipedia article, so mostly safe, notice the dates especially the “Spiritual Warfare’ at Civic Auditorium” article in ‘Outside Reading’).

I grew up with a connected but different subculture.

I watch this video and my heart breaks. If you notice the overdose of eroticism, they know eros but not much of the other forms of love. A woman I knew back then told me that she did not feel anything sexually anymore and like rough because she could feel something (thus the “Leather Sex” of the BDSM display).

Our society knows as a popular song on secular radio by Three Days Grace (irony) is called Pain (Youtube of MTV vid) with the chorus:

Pain, without love
Pain, I can’t get enough
Pain, I like it rough
‘Cause I’d rather feel pain than nothing at all

So I watch this display of celebrated eroticism and my heart breaks for this is not the joy God intended for His beloved creation. Any repulsion SF folks may feel is probably knowing more of the true gift God has given in love and sexual expression in a healthy way and the immediate withdraw when seeing a counterfeit. I guess as one redeemed from where this sort of stuff was more common place, I weep for the lostness of those who think they’re free yet so bound tight to gratification impulse. Christians have their fair share of psychodrama and games, I’ll attest to that, but without ramped sexuality the severity is less.

Sex is a powerful and great gift of the Lord, else Satan would not spend so much effort perverting it. I do not know all the Lord has done in this mystery, but seen the effects of when it goes wrong. At that level I’m taking +Andrus condoning personally for those chains are hard to break and the effects of the sin are so damaging yet not only are it’s victims oblivious, they revival in their own demise. My people are just as lost as well. Kyrie Eleison!

The StandFirm Team
Jackie Bruchi
Greg Griffith
Sarah Hey
Matt Kennedy
David Ould

What! No teamster to drive the team?  I guess that would explain why the Stand Firm float wasn’t in the parade! 

Sorry Dr. N,

At the Hob meeting in NO +Marc stood up to amplify +VGR’s diatribe at the +Rowan. 

RSB

Sarah, somewhere in the Handbook of Homophobia must be a section on how to edit gay pride parade footage for maximum impact.  “Show lots of naughty bits, then show the subject you wish to prove guilty by association.”  Bishop Marc’s participation in the parade does not necessarily mean he agreed with the behavior of all participants.  Marc was engaging in evangelism to unchurched LGBT folk—incarnating “The Episcopal Church Welcomes YOU!”  Many bishops have done the same thing in other dioceses.

Which other bishops EllipseFoci? I saw in the writings here that he was the first.

Well, this certainly refutes the revisionista LBGT position that this is all about lifelong committed LBGT relationships. It isn’t. It is, apparently, about the legitimization of all homosexual activity no matter how vile and disgusting. +Andrus should be tarred, feathered and run out of the church on a rail. The man is sick. A bishop participating in this kind of porngraphic exhibitionism is not fit to be a bishop in a supposedly Christian church.

the snarkster

EllipseFoci - these parades are a political statement and to appear in one is endorsing that statement. What the statement may be becomes extremely muddied by the “naughty bits” which do appear to be at the heart of them. Do you really think evangelism of any sort was done in that parade?

Snarkster, the Church doesn’t tar and feather such people, they are reassigned.

Elizabeth Kaeton wrote a good piece (I believe it was shared here on SF) stating the inconsistency of pornography with Christian life.

She can’t be spending much time with her GLBTQI activist colleagues, then.  Whenever gay porn is censored GLBTQI activists consistently argue that it must be allowed because it is inseparable from gay culture.  And for revisionists, secular culture trumps the church every time.

Bishop Marc’s participation in the parade does not necessarily mean he agreed with the behavior of all participants.

MerseyMike, is that you?!  If so, I ask again: would you march in a parade with neo-Nazis and the KKK?

Well, EllipseFoci, one don’t have to go into a ‘nudie bar’ to evangelize exotic dancers. First there is an implicit condoning and second there probably a better forum to communicate acceptance of person outside of behavior (I recommend Denny’s about 2AM).

P.S. Click here to see shocking photos of Bishop Jack McKelvey at Rochester’s gay pride parade!

Can I now see the table set for Holy Eucharist without thinking of sex toys? During the distribution of the sacrament, will the priest hand me a condom and say - the Body of Christ given for you?

I didn’t look at the links for that reason.  Dr. N, pray for cleansing of memories.  Ask Jesus to take the sword of the Spirit and cut those images from all that is holy in your life.  Perhaps it would help to ask Jesus to reveal how He was with you when you viewed the images.  If the problem persists, seek a healing prayer team.

To utilize your own argument, Ellipse, any pride parade coverage can be selectively edited to make it look respectable.  I’d like to see what else McKelvey was placing his seal of approval on that day.

PS: Are you sure you’re not MerseyMike?

EllipseFoci

P.S. Click here to see shocking photos of Bishop Jack McKelvey at Rochester’s gay pride parade!

Gee, every one is fully dressed.  You are right, this is guite shocking.

RSB

AH! Finally, our first “Just because he marched with them doesn’t mean he agrees with them” defense.

Fine, EllipseFoci… so let’s imagine for a moment that Jack Iker rode in a white pride parade, sitting atop a convertible smiling and waving to the crowd. Be honest - if I then said, “Well! Just because Bishop Iker rode in a white pride parade, doesn’t mean he agrees with the rest of the participants!”, would you give him the same benefit of the doubt you’re asking us to give +Andrus?

Of course you wouldn’t, so don’t be ridiculous by asking us believe your malarkey about Bishop Andrus. He rode in this parade not simply because he supports the gay community, but because this is the gay community he supports - all of its sickness included.

I’m willing to give Bishop Andrus the benefit of the doubt if and only if he issues a statement condemning the behavior of those in the video and others who exhibited similar behavior, but I’m not going to hold my breath. He knew what the gay pride parade was like before he agreed to ride in it. Have you ever ridden in a parade? When the participants gather in the staging area, everyone is crammed together - everyone passes each other as they take their places at the starting line. There is simply no way Marc Andrus did not see who else was in the parade. There is simply no way he didn’t know what he was participating in, and having that ridiculous fraud Davis Mac-Iyalla riding beside him changes nothing.

If Marc Andrus issues a suitably unambiguous statement condemning the excessive and obscene behavior of the parade’s participants, then we all here will have to acknowledge and accept it. However, our crow-eating future is secure, because there’s no way he’ll do that. This is the culture, the movement, and the people he believes deserve full inclusion at all levels of church leadership, and to say anything to the contrary would not only enrage the members of his diocese, but would betray his true loyalties.

Dang, Greg brings out the big guns.

RSB

I guess as one redeemed from where this sort of stuff was more common place, I weep for the lostness of those who think they’re free yet so bound tight to gratification impulse.

Hosea6:6, thanks for this post.

Folks, I don’t see any problem with the Episcopal Church welcoming and ministering to the GLBT community. They can even support festivals and parades for them. 

However, the problem is when that activity falls in common with what we see in San Francisco. Images from other parades showing clergy involved in what IMHO is sexual misconduct needs to be brought to the attention of the community at large and the Church.

“Elizabeth Kaeton wrote a good piece (I believe it was shared here on SF) stating the inconsistency of pornography with Christian life.  I guess the LGBT just mean heterosexual pornography”.

Yes, Timothy, and that sort of double standard has been in existence for a long time.  Rather like the SSJE “monks” in DioMass who seem to believe that vows of celibacy apply only to sex with a woman. 

And, EllipseFoci, if this twisted spin is what you really believe, then it is obvious why TEC is headed down its chosen degenerate path. 

“Sarah, somewhere in the Handbook of Homophobia must be a section on how to edit gay pride parade footage for maximum impact.  “Show lots of naughty bits, then show the subject you wish to prove guilty by association.” Bishop Marc’s participation in the parade does not necessarily mean he agreed with the behavior of all participants.  Marc was engaging in evangelism to unchurched LGBT folk—incarnating “The Episcopal Church Welcomes YOU!” Many bishops have done the same thing in other dioceses”.

Engaging in evangelism?  That’s rich…

Editing gay pride parade footage for maximum impact?  It’s brutally obvious that the SF crowd did not have to work too hard on that score.  They had plenty of fodder from which to choose. 

And, if Andrus’s participation in the parade does not necessarily mean he agreed with all the behavior of the participants, then he should not have participated OR he should have left when the obscenities and bare breasts started bouncing around.  His presence at that parade is indicative of ENDORSEMENT of whatever is going on there. 

Plus, meanwhile, children do starve in Africa and other parts of the world.  It’s obvious the authority of Scripture means nothing to the TEC crowd, and I guess the MDG’s were also forgotten for a day, in favor of this brand of filth. 

For shame…

And, for the record, I for one am an EOE.  I don’t want straights walking down the streets either with various body parts hanging out, S&M;paraphernalia, or obscene words displayed on banners for my children to see.  Last I heard, this was not a “Straight Pride Parade”, so thus, my opinion has nothing to do with homophobia, it has to do with common decency, a concept that is obviously lost on the participants in this parade, including the “bishop”. 

CS

My argument exactly, Greg.  Let’s see what Ellipse says.

It raises the point: what if all these GLBTQI’s do not, in fact, end by embracing Christian values like monogamy?  What if the opposite occurs, and secular GLBTQI “culture” infiltrates and contaminates the Church?

And click here for a scandalous photo of Jon Bruno celebrating Holy Eucharist before the gay pride parade in Los Angeles way back in 2001.  [Scroll about halfway down the screen.]

I have a tough time with the apology route. There is an equally appalling series of events with the RC Archbishop and communing Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence in SF.  He apologized! Take a look at the situation there and please make your own judgement.

http://www.qdomine.com/Morality_pages/MHR.htm

TEC needs to take concrete actions, their words are not enough.

If anyone is wondering about selective editing on this clip, you should go to the first thread on this topic.  The Catholic organization that filmed this has a four-minute version and the above two-minute version.  I have seen both.  Believe me, the worst scenes are left out of the one posted above.

CS/Dallas, could you elaborate on your SSJE comment. Going through some books over the weekend, I found one by Martin Smith, SSJE, that I haven’t read and I am unfamiliar with him and the SSJE.

EllipseFoci seems to be taking a long time answering Greg’s question.

Sorry Dr. N but I disagree.  The entire premise of the theological argument is whether or not the practice of homosexuality is a sin.  It is that simple. For ECUSA to endorse it in any way is largely the reason we are here today.  The gay pride parade is just a graphic or pornographic display of this endorsement.

Note that EllipseFoci carefully avoids condemning any of this behavior, just as Marc Andrus will do, and for the same reasons Greg gave above.

Jill,

Thank you for your prayers. My faith will not be unsettled so far that I will not persist.  The Church is here and the light cannot be put out.

Lee - “The entire premise of the theological argument is whether or not the practice of homosexuality is a sin.  It is that simple.”

The Church is made for sinners and we are there to minister to those who recognize their sinful selves. The theological matter is giving represenation and dignity to that sin, without repentance, in our clergy and bishops. What we see in the videos is blessing of sin.

EllipseFoci,

Stop dancing around the issue. You can trot out all the photos you want of other bishops who happened to be in “safe” photo frames at various other gay parades. It still doesn’t change the fact that Marc Andrus happily rode in the depraved San Francisco gay pride parade, and has given no indication he had the slightest problem with any of it. Certainly a photo of Jon Bruno at another city’s parade has exactly nothing to do with it. I can send you a photo of me filling up my car without incident at an Exxon station; it doesn’t change what happened with the Valdez in Prince William Sound.

Actually Greg, I think EllipseFoci is proving Sarah’s main point rather well, especially in context to the other recent ones. Maybe EllipseFoci wants to accept a position on the SF research team? :-p

Phil—I guess the logic used is to only focus on the positives. That approach seemed to work real well for Saul in 1 Samuel 15 as I recall ...

Stop dancing around the issue

This is the standard reappraiser method of arguement:

Primates: Stop conducting SSBs.
TEC:  We will commit to not authrizing public rites for SSBs.
EllipseFoci: I have posted some totally unrelated photos.

See - its a pattern. 

RSB
Christ Church, Savannah: 87% voted in favor.
Fr Van: Well what was the breakdown of the provisional ballots cast but not allowed - I mean there must be some conspricy here.

Greg:  Bishop Marc is wrong for doing this.

I can send you a photo of me filling up my car without incident at an Exxon station; it doesn’t change what happened with the Valdez in Prince William Sound. .

Greg, you da bomb.  I’ll be chuckling all day with that one.  I may even use it and take the credit.

“The Church is made for sinners and we are there to minister to those who recognize their sinful selves.”  Exactly Dr. N I agree but this is where I disagree.  “They can even support festivals and parades for them.”  ECUSA does not need to support the conduct or the festivities.  This is not a happy thing.

another sad day in TEC.
there are so many of them.

Sarah,
Having read your piece and seeing the video I was overcome with sorrow/depression and anger. There is no excuse for any Bishop of a Christian church to take part in this cesspool which glorifies the fall and feeds into the Satanic agenda to entrap souls for an eternity in hell. When Bishops (and I am sure Andrews is not the only one who approves and/or appears in this sort of fecal wallowing), the leaders of the Church in whom has been entrusted God’s faithful, are not censured, defrocked and burnt, then that Church has abrogated its privilege of being called Christian.

Fence sitters such as Dallas, Albany, Western Louisiana, et al. beware! You are both in the distinct minority of this fake Christian Church called “Episcopal” and are sitting on the edge of a force that will drive you and the people you are supposed to care for into the maws of eternal damnation.

There. I feel better.
AP+

Lee, I think we differ on the meaning of “support” or maybe what is communicated about events. What I see in the pictures from Rochester is a community of believers who welcomes the GLBTs to their Church. I am not troubled by that, and I expect that is the image they wish to present. That is not sinful.

What differentiates this from what I see in San Francisco is the blessing of sin. Such blessing was even supported by the RC Archbishop in service of Holy Eucharist to those wearing the dress of nuns in mockery of the Church.

My question is this: Is the Church blessing sin in other parts of the country by similar acts and just publishing photos of happy church members? Are all gay-pride parades modeled after what we see in SF? If so, the actions of TEC need to be represented for the membership to see and concrete actions taken to stop this.

Dr. N.  I think we do differ in that “Gay Pride” and the recognition of sin are entirely two different things.  For example, most heterosexual monogamous men have been attracted to women outside of their mate.  Should I start a parade or a party for this condition which should be supported by my local ECUSA PARISH?

I’d like to see some instruction for burning this to a disk on my personal PC.  Maybe some written intro of what and who is going on, such as the intro article.  The intent would be to make and distribute CD copies to “pew warming” Episcopalians in local churches.  FYI.

So when is a request going out to +Cantuar to rescind +Andrus’ invitation to the Lambeth Tea Party?

Anyone? Who’s got his email address?

from the Briar Patch,

Lee, I get your point clearly and am naive about “gay pride” activities. They could be something the Church shouldn’t support. I must let others judge that.

My point remains that GLBT folks are welcome in the Church, but the Church is not to be expected to bless their sin any more than that of any other sinner.

The challenge for all of us is to decide what is sin. To us on the orthodox side, our guide is the Bible and our lifelong struggle with its understanding. To me, GLBT orientations are sinful based on what has been taught by the thousands of years of transgressions and renewal in the hands of our Lord. From that experience I am opposed to seeing GLBT folks raised to positions of clergy and bishopry.

I may be totally wrong, but that is what I have concluded and it is a witness carried by Christians since the beginning. When one must disregard the Old Testiment as “law written by man” and Paul’s writings and bigoted - arguing to the Great Commandment of Jesus, we lose order in society and gain the rise of sin.

God will Judge in the end; the best we have are the scriptures and the efforts of our ancestors to understand them. We have been warned to be wary of the new idea. Praying and not acting is just as bad what we call as sinful.

So, when is someone going to request that +Andrus’ invitation to Lambeth be rescinded? Anyone have +++Rowan’s email address?

from the Briar Patch,

oops, sorry for the double post.
these computer thingys are never going to catch on

That’s going to be some Tea Party!

Thanks Dr. N.  I believe we are on the same page.

Sarah - “polity-tics” and “politics” make strange bedfellows.

From the Article you cited On the San Francisco Parade : “Come to find out, not only were Episcopal parishes involved in the parade ... but also the new bishop of California, Bishop Marc Andrus along with “Nigeria’s premier gay activist” Davis Mac-Illaya, participated in the parade. Oasis/California, a gay activist organization, was so proud of this first participation in the parade by an Episcopal bishop that they created t-shirts titled “Marching with Bishop Marc” and are selling them at CafePress.”

From Greenville, South Carolina :
“Dr. Bob Jones III, chancellor of the fundamentalist Christian university in Greenville that bears his name, is looking past his religious differences with Gov. Mitt Romney and endorsing the Mormon for the Republican nomination for president, he told The Greenville News Tuesday.”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-10-16-jones-romney_N.htm?csp=34

It is getting curiouser and curiouser.

In the Rochester pics, check out the two inflatable female dolls in the background behind the TEC contingent, hahahahahaha. Not a bad idea, actually. Inflatable parishioners could be a huge boost to ASA!

What struck me about the “Pride” video (besides it being Sodom and Gomorrha) was how hard the participants were trying to create eroticism. Everything “over the top.” Costumes, whips, toys, public nudity, loud music, a visual explosion of every sexual perversion.

Why is that? I thought these “attractions” come naturally? There is nothing “natural,” loving, endearing, nurturing, or “second-nature” about any of that stuff. Sorry, but if one has to go to such extreme measures to express their sexuality, one can only come to the conclusion that is is contrived, it is part of a “scene,” and it is full of pathetic people who suffer from sexual dysfunction.

Hardly the view of sexuality that any Christian shepherds or laity should condone and endorse.

teatime,

Kapow!

My compliments. Well said.

I’m waiting…......................................................................

Sigh. I guess no one from the LBGT Revisionista crowd is going to step up to the plate and offer a spirited defense of this loving monogamous garbage.

I think the criticism says more about the naivete of the critics than it does about American culture.  I’ll offer my defense that what consenting adults want to do as long as it is legal and safe doesn’t bother me.

Thank you, StayinAnglican!

Brian, there is nothing “safe” about promiscuity and thrill-seeking, the latter of which becomes addictive. Bigger and bigger thrills are required,  and this invariably leaves victims in its wake. As for “legal,” the public nudity exhibited isn’t legal. It’s just that this “community” has brow-beaten the authorities into acquiescence for fear of lawsuits. I guarantee you that if I paraded downtown with my breasts exposed and holding a sign spouting obscenities, I would be arrested.

You use the word “naive” as if it’s a bad thing! In this day and age, it’s blissful ignorance and self-preservation. The GLBT activists have succeeded in pushing society’s buttons with their disgusting displays but they can’t FORCE us to watch and applaud. Yet.

teatime

I don’t disagree with you about addiction, etc., but no one is forcing us to watch or participate in these activities.  Sarah sought this out.  Greg pixeled the thing.  The “man hours” that it took alone to “inform” people of what, in 2007, should come as no surprise is what I mean by naivete’.

So according to you, Brian, anything can be done on public streets at any time and we have no right to be shocked or outraged or even to complain, because “no one is forcing us to watch or participate in these activities”  - how sad a spectacle. That this is no surprise to some of us in 2007 does not speak very well of “us,” now does it?

Brian,

What goes on in these parades shouldnt surprise anyone today. In that you are correct. But that was not the point of posting this or in cleaning up the video. The point of that was to place an Episcopal bishop at the scene. To show what he was associating himself with. If there is any alarm or surprise it regards the discovery of new low set by a bishop.

Personally, I don’t think anyone should be surprised by that either unless they have been largely sheltered for the past several years. There are lots of good decent folks who fit into this category who should be informed of this.

I’ll offer my defense that what consenting adults want to do as long as it is legal and safe doesn’t bother me.

Well, Brian the Unbotherable, I’ve heard that argument from revisionists before.  It didn’t persuade me then and it doesn’t now.  An adulterous husband and his mistress are “consenting adults”.  So are swingers.  And polyamorous groups.  So is a threesome.  And a bisexual with more than one lover.  And a “serial monogamist”.  And that nice man in Holland who “married” two women.

There’s a reason why faithful Christians don’t accept the “consenting adults” argument.

Here is the ugly truth for those that hide behind Marc Andrus participation in this parade as “inclusion” and “open mindedness”; the radical gay elements that sponsor and participate in this carnange view Christians the enemy. As something to be exposed, ridiculed and finally tossed out due to our lack of progressive thinking and “understanding”. What’s even more sickening is our own enlightened bishop (see another thread today for important clues!) did have this guy as a suffragen. Andrus gave LOTS of parishioners a case of the serious ick. The same group of us who live in “tolerant” neighborhoods and have “diverse” friends. We have gay friends, neighbors and family memebers yet we still recognize the lifestyle for what it is: sinful. No matter how you spin it accepting depravity of any nature is a spirtual cancer.
LBGT, hetero, beastiality or you name it if you ride in a parade SPONSORED and CONDONING a particular political point of view then you support the point of view. This was not an oversight or misjudgement, no passes will be given. Outreach and mission would be reaching out to them with God’s love, sinner to sinner. Why not have a prayer team available? This is santioning depravity.
Just a really nasty question Mark, if MBLA (man boy group, as far as I will explain) was parading to celebrate their lifestyle would you ride with them? Or pedephiles? Or racists? Just where is the line? I forgot, the line is just as far over as our pop culture feel good values say it is.
We sould pray for these persons, with them if they want us to as fellow sinners.

Snarkster, you might want to bathe again in bleach and a Brillo pad. Watching this is like falling in a septic tank.

I have grown up for most of my life in or near West Coast cities.  Everybody knows that the “gay pride” parades are primarily ostentatious displays of over-the-top gay sexuality, celebrating the very things that Sarah mentions (i.e. what Christians regard as the brokeness of humanity).  Anyone who thinks they are not that is hopelessly naive.  Anyone who takes part in a gay pride parade is knowingly lending their support to these ostentatious displays of gay sexuality.  Greg’s analogy of walking in a white-pride parade, while denying support for racism is dead on.

EllipseFoci - you are either terribly naive or very devious.  TEC bishops may not be dancing naked with whips in the parade, but you can be very sure that such activities are not very far away.  Gay pride parades are primarily about such displays - that is the norm in such parades, not the exception.

FYI - if anyone doubts what the gay lifestyle is all about in SF, take a walk through the Castro district on a weekend evening.  It will tell you all you need to know.  Or if you can’t get to SF, then pick up some travel books and read under the special section for gay travellers.  What do those who write for gay travellers zero in on as being of especial interest to gays?

And to anyone who doubts me, I attended one of the most gay friendly TEC churches in SF for half a year when I lived there.  I met one gay guy who was unapologetically gay, but who was disturbed at the attitudes so prevalent amongst the gay activists, including the activists in the church.

And did the nebbish HAVE to wear such a ‘go to hell’ shiny shirt.  That did not come from Almy’s.  And I was accused of ‘grandstanding once for ‘parading in my alb’ before service…actually helping an elderly parishoner come across a mud slide on the church’s back sidewalk.

Oh, well!

Oscewicee, here’s an article from the New York Times—Scroll down and read the comments; they’re highly instructive.  I have no reason not to believe they’re true. 

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3297

Frankly, I don’t care to read anything written by Martin Smith, but that’s just my opinion.

People like Brian can trot out the “consenting adults” thing all they want, but that does not mean that said people are entitled to a “blessing”, marriage, or an automatic theological redefinition of any sacrament at will. 

St. Anonymous, thank you for your contribution.

SSR’s, S&M;, and Polyamories! ... oh my!

“Quick!  Better bless those covenants, before…”

“‘Lizbet, you got some spain’n to-do!”

“Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!”

You’re kidding right? All this sanctimonious outrage over the SF Gay Pride Parade? Do you people live in a bubble? Get a grip! Here’s a newsflash—Bishops in the Diocese of Los Angeles have participated in the Gay Pride Parade in West Hollywood for years. It’s called evangelism. Are you against that too?

Yo, Fred.  Get a grip of your own.  Did any of those LA bishops speak out against any of this crap?  Say that perhaps some of this stuff was, oh, I don’t know, inappropriate behavior?  Then here’s a newsflash: what they were engaged in was not evangelism at all.  It’s what’s called kissing up to the secular culture.  Something Episcopal bishops are past masters at.

“It’s called evangelism.”

I’ll dispute that for waving a hand in car during any type of parade is not “n. 1. Zealous preaching and dissemination of the gospel, as through missionary work.”

You’re kidding right? All this sanctimonious outrage over the SF Gay Pride Parade? Do you people live in a bubble? Get a grip! Here’s a newsflash—Bishops in the Diocese of Los Angeles have participated in the Gay Pride Parade in West Hollywood for years. It’s called evangelism. Are you against that too?

No, I’ll tell you what we are against Freddy my boy. We are against our priests and bishops participating in organized public pornography. And “gay pride” is really a misnomer. If they had any pride at all, they wouldn’t be walking around with their d**k’s hanging out.

the snarkster

Fred,

Thank you again for your clarity. Most of us bible thumping, homophobic, fundamentalists would not consider blessing and participating in a gay pride parade evangelism.

My understanding of evangelism is that evangelism brings the Good News of Christ to people who are not yet Christians. Part of the message is to help people recognize that they have to change behavior in order to become Christian. As uncomfortable as change is, it is worth the effort.

Blessing a Gay Pride parade just says your fine, keep doing what you are doing, no need to change, I approve of your behavior.

This fundamental difference of view illustrates why we need an orthodox Anglican province in North America.

Here’s a newsflash—Bishops in the Diocese of Los Angeles have participated in the Gay Pride Parade in West Hollywood for years. It’s called evangelism. Are you against that too?

Thank you for the confirmation, Fred.  We had suspected for years that these bishops were talking out of both sides of their mouths and now we have confirmation.  Truly stunning.

Fred:  I’d be interested in how many people have been brought to repentance of sin and faith in Christ as a result of this evangelism.  Do you have any idea or even a rough estimate?

No, I’ll tell you what we are against Freddy my boy. We are against our priests and bishops participating in organized public pornography. And “gay pride” is really a misnomer. If they had any pride at all, they wouldn’t be walking around with their d**k’s hanging out.
the snarkster

I nominate the snarkster for the bottom feeder award with oak leaf cluster for comment of the day!

What a lot of old prudes on this thread! Outrageousness is born of repression. Have you ever had a good look at Michelangelo’s paintings on the roof of the Sistine Chapel? Or read the Song of Songs? There’s nothing new in Christians celebrating eroticisim. I thought the Anglicans were the non-Puritans in America.

Cule, you never did get back to me on the Christian leaders of the civil rights movement.

I love Michaelangelo’s paintings and the poetry of the Song of Solomon. I haven’t looked at the clip linked above - is there something there that reminds you of either?

Osce: yes, you’re right, there were Christian civil rights leaders, as there were magnificent Christian anti-apartheid leaders (like the strongly pro-gay rights Abp Tutu). But then their oppressors were also strong Christians too - in S Africa at least, very Bible-believing ones at that.

Just heard Sean Hannity promo a story on the San Fran “nuns” for his FOX show tonight.

This story is going to gain traction fast…

The Sistine Chapel is covered in homo-erotic art, that is my point. So much so, that the Pope years later had the figures in the Last Judgement at least partially clothed by having their naked bits and pieces painted over. Even the women (the Sybils) are obviously modelled on muscly male bodies with the requisite parts added on awkwardly - take a good look at them.

Prude = someone with actual sexual standards.  As for “outrageousness” being born of “repression,” spare us the inane leftist cliches.  It is not “repressive” to expect people to keep their oddities to themselves and not inflict them on the public.  Most grown-ups know how to do that already.  And it is not “repressive” to expect allegedly Christian clergy to stand up for Christian standards.

Why did Oscar Wilde behave in the deliberately shocking way he did, I wonder?

“Fred”,

If by “evangelizing” you mean, “Hear hear! I heartily approve of all this perversity! No need to change! I love it! I affirm it! Christians should embrace this behavior!”... then yes, Bishop Andrus is indeed “evangelizing.”

Sadly, though, he’s also begging the question.

Sarah Hey,

You wrote

… in matters of government I verge very nearly towards the libertarian end of politics. But for a Christian to make that same choice—to display, encourage, and revel in pagan actions—is another thing entirely.

I must take strong exception to your implied conflation of libertarianism with libertinism. I am aware of nothing inherent in libertarian (please note the lower case l) political philosophy, particularly as exposited by F. A. Hayek, who many think of (rightly in my opinion) as the “father of libertarianism,” which requires anyone to legally sanction this sort of public behavior. I have read a considerable portion of Hayek’s published work, including The Constitution of Liberty (arguably his magnum opus and Individualism and Economic Order, as well as his shorter more popular writings. As an orthodox Episcopalian seeking to grow more fully into the fullness of our Lord, I have spent a considerable amount of time thinking about the premises of libertarianism and weighing them against Scripture, against the Gospel in particular. I have yet to find anything in Hayek that is in conflict with the Gospel, despite the fact that, as you may be aware, Hayek considered himself incapable of believing in a personal God. Of course, he did not consider himself libertarian even though the term was in use when he wrote Why I Am Not A Conservative, but rather, described himself as “an Old Whig (with emphasis on the Old).” I consider myself an Old Whig also, while recognizing that the differences between many libertarians and myself are at least an order of magnitude less than between myself and almost any current representative of either of America’s two major political party’s (Ron Paul excepted).

If you agree that a libertarian state is accurately defined (in an operational sense) as one in which the rule of law establishes for each and every person a protected sphere of action that is equal and identical to the protected sphere of action of every other individual, <u>and</u> wherein no individual may lawfully initiate the use of force, fraud or coercion against another, then I would ask you by what chain of reasoning do you see libertarianism (or Old Whiggism) as necessarily sanctioning the “display, encourage(ment), and revel(ing) in pagan actions” that this video apparently displays. I who am an Old Whig well beyond the level of verging, see no such sanction. What I see is, rather, the coercion by its participants of their fellow citizens into witnessing a wholly inappropriate public display, many of whose activities are “beyond the pale.”

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

Martial Artist: is “exposit” a verb in the US?

It is in my part of the U.S.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

Well, one lives and learns.

I don’t see anything in Michaelangelo’s paintings that flies in the face of the human body as the temple of the Holy Spirit. Should I look at that clip and see if I will feel the same about what I find there?

Thanks for acknowledging that Christians had a *large* role in the civil rights movement. At least, I think you meant to agree that it was a large role. It may startle you to learn that even some southern white Christians also took part - not as many as there should have been, but more than you seem to be aware of. My boss’ father was a Methodist minister who met with Martin Luther King several times and assisted him in his own community. My church was the first racially diverse one in my community and the first to have a black in a leadership role - it is still a relatively rare thing to find a racially mixed Episcopal Church, I think?

Excellent, then Osce, you should be able to apply the same logic to the oppression of other minorities too.

Culeitreach,

I should say by way of a disclaimer that I have attained the “ripe old age” of 62, so I may not be wholly representative of the general population. Nevertheless, in addition to some few of us using it, the noun form (exposition) is routinely used, and has been for a long time in relation to, among other events, the so-called World’s Fairs (Expositions). Many people use “expound” instead, but, IMHO, exposit has a less authoritarian or didactic connotation than expound.

Blessings, regards, and Sláinte mhath,
Martial Artist

Michelangelo, a Christian,  painted homoerotic pictures and wrote homoerotic poetry, but that’s alright because he lived a long time ago and a long way away from Indiana, I suppose.

From Merriam-Webster:

exposit

Main Entry:
  ex·pos·it
Function:
  transitive verb
Etymology:
  Latin expositus, past participle of exponere
Date:
  1882

: expound

Knowing we are naive is a basis for learning, and we are certainly learning today. Let me summarize what I am hearing.

The GLBT community has acknowledged that its actions in SF and other cities about the USA are as seen in the videos presented here. It also has acknowledged that it expects and finds support for these actions at high levels within The Episcopal Church and other denominations.

It is important that the entire Church recognize that gay pride events, such as the one illustrated in the SF videos, are supported by many bishops, and future support is expected as an eventual direction for all parishes as they become more enlightened.

Further, I sense that if you do not support what you see in the videos from SF, you are judged by TEC Bishops and their GLBT following as bigoted and a people of hate. A people who are divisive, unenlightened, and not fully inclusive.

Is this the TEC/GLBT agenda that you are workiing together on?

They are beautiful paintings of human bodies - to you they are homoerotic. To me, they are not. The human form is not inherently homoerotic, you know. Gee, I hate to shock you but there are contemporary nudes that I like too. You didn’t answer my question. Again. Instead you found away to explain what I said that suited your preconception. Again.

Oh dear, Dr N’s got his/her knickers in a twist over this one.

Sorry, Osce, it’s past midnight. Got to leave you lot to fume without me fuelling your wrath. Good night and sweet dreams of hefty Sybils, with or without add-ons.

Culeitreach, bless your kind little heard for knowing I care. Nite nite.

We’re used to you leaving when it doesn’t go by your script.  Have a good evening.

oscewicee wrote

Thanks for acknowledging that Christians had a *large* role in the civil rights movement.

And it may startle many to know that not all of them were “liberal”, in the modern American sense of that term. Fr. Richard John Neuhaus (then, IIRC, still an LCMS minister, now an RC priest), considered by most to be unarguably conservative, was among those who marched in Selma and elsewhere with Dr. King.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

Just off to bed, but leaving when it doesn’t go to your script is what you lot are famous for, at the moment, actually. Toodle pip.

culeitreach - Off to bed?  Please sleep well.  We trust you will wake up refreshed and able to get therapy on time.  You might want to invest in a tin foil hat.

you should be able to apply the same logic to the oppression of other minorities too.

I almost missed this and he’s gone now - but I haven’t seen my church oppressing any minorities. As far as equal rights before the law, etc., certainly.

Y’all leave ol’ culeitreach alone. Trolls are like stray cats, once you start feeding them, they never go away.

the snarkster

Nevertheless, in addition to some few of us using it, the noun form (exposition) is routinely used,

I exposit every week. Sometimes from a pulpit, but mostly just to my wife.

Cule,

I think you have missed the point, as have so many of your radical pals. Let’s review:

My Lalique intertwined nudes are art.
The nude paintings in my home are art.
The bronze of Neptune in my garden is art.

Many of these feature nude women and men, just as God made us. My child sees the works and many others daily.Now, lets compare the following with our art point of reference:

Girl Gone Wild videos are tasteless and exploitive.
Internet pornography is generally repulsive regardless of gender.
Dramatic exhibitions of man’s most base nature on prominant display are disgusting, yes even in a parade for a favorite political cause.

Your homocentric world view has you confused. It’s NOT about being gay. My rejection of your point of view does not make me a homophobe.I would feel the same if this were a celebration of prostitution, the World Bar Hook Up League or Dogs Are Really Really Man’s Best Special Friend. It’s about right and wrong. Condoning sin, regardless of the sin. Again, the idea of the Bishop PARTICIPATING is disgusting.
Put the politics and straw man arguements aside. We are not divided by doctrine, we are two seperate religions. Mine has the everlasting truth of the Word of God (that’s God’s word TO man not man’s word ABOUT God) as opposed to whatever cause de jour the broader culture champions on a particular day.

This discussion, for some unknown reason, brings to mind Smeagol/Gollum from Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings. Is he the future church liberal - I haven’t found where the attachment is, but Gollum is with us.

I think I sense the pity for the character Gollum in the troubled souls of the video:

http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=221002

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2007/01/gollum-mirror-of-man.html

That video was the most disgusting display of sick humanity I’ve ever seen. Probably worse than Sodom & Gomorra. I’ve never even glimpsed a “gay pride” parade before. This is why.

For any of you who are sitting on the fence about the liberal direction of the church, if that display doesn’t make it very clear for you, then I doubt anything will.

May God be with you all!
Mugsie

Heh.  Gollum’s a good comparison for a liberal troll.

“Reasserters, we hates them, preciousss!  Nassty bottom feeders…  Nice reasserters, good reasserters!  Loves ‘em all we does, respects their human dignity… No!!  We hates them, gollum!  Hates them!...  But we’re liberal, preciouss, we loves everybody…  Everybody but reasserters, gollum: we goes on their sites and we insults them, yess we does… But what about Radical Inclusion, preciouss?  Doesn’t that include everyone?... Silly!  Not people that doesn’t do everything we wants!!  Wicked, nassty, tricksy—Bible-believers!  We hates them, gollum!”

“Excellent, then Osce, you should be able to apply the same logic to the oppression of other minorities too”....

Oh, puh-leeze.  Refusing to put a blessing on relationships or refusing a marriage(to straight couples, too) is not “oppressing” them.  That overblown, extrapolated, “I’m a victim” argument doesn’t get you anywhere unless you’re in your own pagan company. 

Besides, they don’t exactly look “oppressed” when they’re walking down the streets in leather and studs and g-strings, topless.  They just look like a bunch of skin-flick rejects, for all the world and the children in it to see.  Where is THEIR compassion or sense of decency?

David Ould wrote:

I exposit every week.

That may very well be true David, but unless I am very misinformed you are not in the U.S., which was the question Culeitreach posed.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

Let’s see ..........how about talking aesthetics? Michaelangelo? Or that lovely middle aged fat bozo with his gut hanging out and the whip in his hand?  Or maybe that wierdo in the thong with his head in a leather face mask?

Whadyathink, eh? Just exactly what part of God’s beautiful creation are these things supposed to be part of?
Still, we pray for their souls .... miracles do happen.

AP+

If these naked marchers do not deserve to be arrested, then how can anybody ever be charged with indecent exposure and sexual misconduct in public?  To the defenders of these outrageous events, did they see the photos of outright sacrilege and are they defending this, too?

And in the end, KJS and the ABC see this, dont bat an eyelash, but grow livid about “border crossing Bishops”. So - you STILL think TEC is capable of being reformed?

I live in San Diego. Believe me, I don’t need to watch the video.  But thanks for posting it.  Here’s the July 15 Bulletin from St. Paul’s Cathedral, Episcopal Diocese of San Diego:
From:
http://www.stpaulcathedral.org/pdfs/announcements/Announcements07-15-07.pdf

PRIDE PARADE IS LESS THAN A WEEK AWAY! Saturday, July 21, 2007 join Dean Richardson and the rest of the Cathedral community as we walk in the parade to proclaim to all: “Whoever you are, wherever you find yourself on the journey of faith, you are welcome here!” Contact Chris Harris at 619.298.7261 x 334 or .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) if you’d like to get involved or sign up at the table in the courtyard today.

Bp. Andrus did cross a border.  His ordination vows were for the kingdom of God.  The sexual pride parade is in the kingdom of Baal.
It is interesting how the HoB can find a voice of protest over crossing canonical borders, but not spiritual borders.

Looks like Culley is having fun with us, by parading his inability to discuss the implications of an Episcopal bishop riding in a lewd Gay Pride parade (i.e., implications for the “See - the Gay Community has matured to the point of having unions not unlike hetero marriage,” line put out by some in the LGBT Contingent), disguised as his inability to distinguish between art and pornography. 

Punctuated by Britishisms.  Toodle pip. 
-Sigh-  As if we’ve stepped into ‘Mary Poppins.’ 

I thought the Anglicans were the non-Puritans in America.

ROFL. 
A friend of mine told me that in his college days, one of his most liberal professors told him that some of the Puritan writings were banned from libraries in the US, during the 1950’s.  The reason was that these writings were considered too racy by the standards of America in the ‘50’s.

I hesitate to say, because I like the chap, but he might be a candidate for the calling of +Gollum.

Folks, don’t abuse the three progressives on this thread who showed up to assure us that the San Francisco Gay Pride Parade was a worthwhile event for the Episcopal church to celebrate and participate in.

We need all those and more!!!  Hey, they stepped up to the plate big time and firmly planted their stake for their vision of the Episcopal church.  There’s no shame in telling the truth about what they want or what they think to be a mighty fine thing.  After all, Episcopal bishops should be able to celebrate and promote whatever “is legal and safe” which is really kinda the new motto for the Episcopal church—sort of their gospel in a nutshell.

” . . . what consenting adults want to do as long as it is legal and safe doesn’t bother me”—should be on every Episcopal church sign.

I did think that this comment from culeitreach was reaching just a bit: “Sarah, somewhere in the Handbook of Homophobia must be a section on how to edit gay pride parade footage for maximum impact.  “Show lots of naughty bits, then show the subject you wish to prove guilty by association.”

I mean . . . StandFirm finds a video filmed by a Roman Catholic group who, in the midst of the actions of the parade idly films three seconds of an Episcopal bishop casually riding by and waving to the admiring throngs . . . and this demonstrates StandFirm’s homophobia. 

Perhaps it is the *discovery* of the video that proves we are “homophobic.”  Or maybe . . . our noticing the Episcopal bishop that proves we are “homophobic.”

No wait—it’s actually pointing it out to others that proves we are “homophobic.”

Well . . . I think that if Pol Pot knew me he’d call me “a capitalist mass murderer” . . . and I’d smile [as long as he didn’t have the gun.]  ; > )

Everybody’s a homophobic, according to progressive activists.  And that word has now become as effective as stumpwater for warts.

Everybody just yawns.

And in the end, KJS and the ABC see this, don’t bat an eyelash, but grow livid about “border crossing Bishops”. So - you STILL think TEC is capable of being reformed?

Frankly, NO.  Barring Providential intervention, that is…

+++Cantuar and Presiding Bishop Jefferts Schori, by your statements and machinations you are promoting two (or more) religions under one roof—a logical fallacy, a political impossibility, an intellectual dishonesty, a moral inequity, a theological casuistry, a spiritual aberration, an ethical mistake—all beyond epic proportion, all harmful to God’s faithful…  Still think you are on the right track???  Oh, by the way, the answer to that question is, NO!  Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme!!!

Ah, Bach in the morning.  We just played that yesterday morning as our family’s wake-up music.

It should be Byrd. This is Anglican territory.

Culeitreach,
I am thankful you are here and I hope nothing I have said may offend you in an individual way. I often think I am a moderate, but that has to be considered in a cultural context. I try to feel moderate, but in San Francisco I would looked upon as a Bible-Pounding Conservative, while in some parts of the midwest and southern United States would be a Far-Left Looney. It is good that you and other progressives are here to offer balance to the discussion and to make us think.

Saying you should be called as +Gollum is an honor, in the light of Fr. Dwight Longenecker’s article, which notes us all to have Gollum’s goodness as well as weakness. When you are with us, you give the progressive voice in an understanding and quiet way. We appreciate that you don’t bite off our fingers when you are free.

Thanks Culi for being patient with us.

When you are with us, you give the progressive voice in an understanding and quiet way. . . Thanks Culi for being patient with us.

Hahahaha—love the sarcasm, Dr No!!

You are being sarcastic, right ?

178 comments later I am just getting to this slice of hell…
There is nothing more that I could say or type to add to the already excellent comments above. But, I will say this…I live in California and I give thanks to the Lord God Almighty everyday that He has placed me in a safe and moral diocese….the San Joaquin with Bishop John-David Schofield. Living 3-1/2 hours away may not seem far enough from the city of illrepute by the bay when I read, hear, and watch this type of display of immoral, disgusting, violent (the whipping dominatrix style) behavior, but I can say that it is far enough or me in order to be under the moral umbrella of the San Joaquin Diocese.
Lord forgive them for they are blinded by their sin and for now have no good in them. Help us to awaken them to a life of good and moral light within them and turn from their sin and return to you.
In Christ Name Amen.

st. anonymous,
From my “moderate” perspective, I can read his words and they are quiet (we have no audio here), and he has not been disrespectful to me and I have tried not to disrespect him.

I must say, without disrespect, he is a good candidate for +Gollum in progressive Anglicanism.

I wish Greg could take the time to clean up the whole four minutes   and send it to every one of the primates, and every member of the JSC, the ACI, and the ACC in order for them to see what the gay agenda and lobby has managed to accomplish in this country.  Then they might see what we in TEC are battling against.  It isn’t love and commitment, but rather a lifestyle that denigrates sexuality.  God didn’t design our gender differences and procreative power to be abused in this manner.  I don’t think He finds church support of such behavior inclusive, but rather destructive to humanity.

Actually, I would send it as it is. It is ugly and reality. My guess, however, is that they know about it and it is being discussed behind the scenes.

It is important that videos are made and distributed on all TEC participation in these parades, so it just isn’t perceived as an SF thing.

Marc Andrus was a priest before he became bishop suffragan in Alabama and later diocesan bishop for California.  Everybody can thank Bishop Peter Lee and the Diocese of Virginia for producing this “leader.”

“Folks, don’t abuse the three progressives .....”

Right, Sarah. They might like it and ask for more.

One more antidote to my post above…
When watching the good Bishop spinkling the Holy Water over God knows who in that parade vehicle (and I am sure in other parts of the parade) one might be offended and disgusted…. I say that I pray the Holy Water stings the very person whom it touched into conviction of their sinful, disrespectful, digenerate, behavior to repent and turn to Chirst. Let that Holy Water be the tool God uses to bring them to full repentance and into a full life of Christ Jesus and to be molded into His image and use.

By their actions, the priests and bishop, became Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and blessing in their name. I have a tough time seeing the water they used as holy.

If futher videos are made, make sure the camera is panned to show young children, families, police, etc., at these gatherings. Condoning this behavior is more than Church trouble.

What are your thoughts about GLBT inclusion. As I have said before, I have friends in the Church who are GLBT and they have served in very acceptable roles to the work of our Church. Is it the orthodox position that they are not welcome, to be repentive of their sexuality, or just not engaging in the behavior of the video?

“It is important that videos are made and distributed on all TEC participation in these parades, so it just isn’t perceived as an SF thing.”—Dr. N.

But this needs very sensitive handling, doesn’t it?  Perhaps the ACI could think of a way of contacting the highest levels.  We should not seem to be purveyors of pornography.  I’m a little worried about the messenger being blamed because the content is so bad!

On reading the responses to this travesty in the comments above, I am bemused by what sheltered lives many of us seem to live. The video clip shown is rather standard fare for gay pride parades, which have been going on for years. Public nudity per se is not against the law in California and many other states, barring some additional factors. The celebration of sexual promiscuity by gays is endemic in their lifestyles (although less so by lesbians).

The only thing that the LGBT faction feels it has to commend to the greater span of society is “commited, dedicated partnership” or some such wording, which describes a distinct minority of LGBT behavior—hence, the all-out push for recognition of same-sex marriage.

Even in those “committed” partnerships, an “open relationship” type of commitment is common; that is, each of the “committed’ partners is free to engage in sex acts with non-partners. This is the type of lifestyle approach celebrated with gusto (and lust) in gay pride events such as this one.

As has been noted above, this video is old news, even the participation of clergy. A thorough search through past parades will no doubt find plenty of examples of clergy participation, while other instances of episcopal participation would be quite unsurprising.

It is not hard to see where the LGBT faction would like to see our society go. Acceptance of same-sex blessings by the church, and same-sex marriage by government is just the foot in the door.

This salesperson at our door wants to sell us the whole deluxe package of porneia in every one of its conceivable forms.

TEC _is_ engaged in activities that give it a pornographic image. It will stop quickly if it is seen as it is.

Maybe the best way to do this is just send on the links.

Dr N.

Of course they are welcome as long as they sincerely repent of all their sins same as anyone else.

That is the standard of membership in the Christian Church. It is the same for everyone.

I happen to know that there are many such repentant sinners who happen to be gay in conservative parishes all over the country. I think most prefer to keep their struggles between themselves and their priest, but I know they are there. I have it on good word from a certain very solid very conservative priest that I know well.

Bishop Duncan once described at least one parish, I think in Chicago, with a program that successfully helps those who struggle with this temptation to live repentant celibate lives.

The ugly lie most often told by the liberals is that we are in a fight between those who love gays and want them in their churches and those who hate gays and want a church that is purified of their presence. The truth is that this is a fight between liberal progressives who have left the Christian faith in all but name and traditional ie profoundly moderate, Anglicans. We get painted as some kind of radicals because we happen to have been riled up after years of far too much provocation, but talk to any conservative Anglican about our theology and ecclesiology and you will hear the true voice of moderation. You will hear people who take very seriously the Church’s premier task of reaching out to sinners, all sinners, and calling them to sincere repentance.

This will always include people who are gay and sincerely repent of it and do their very best, with all of their heart, to refrain from their sin. Perfection is not expected. Only sincerity.

Dr N,

It will not stop because TEC does not see it as wrong. It is seen as an alternative life style, God is Love, God loves you as you are, no reason to change behavior, there are many paths to heaven, you have the right to be who God meant you to be, and on and on.

This is the problem. The commissars who run TEC today are reflective of the left wing secular humanistic values of Hollywood, only tangentially connected to historical Biblical truths. Being a Bishop does not actually require one to believe anything, other people’s money support you, and you get a really nifty platform from which to spread your secular ideology. Why would anyone want to change that deal?

The only answer is a new orthodox Anglican North American Province. I hope Bp Duncan and his group can make it happen.

Dr. N,
All sinners, including myself, are welcome in Gods church, TEC included, and they should be included. However, we all are called to repent from our sins, turn to a life of and in Jesus Christ, follow and adhere to the teachings of Him and our Father in Heaven. If one is gay, homosexual, or is a heterosexual promiscuous individual, the Bible, God’s teaching is very clear on that subject. They need to repent of their sexual behavior that is against scriptural teachigs and live a life of celibacy. Just like a heterosexual would be asked to do as well. Since marriage is between one man and one woman, then anything else is against God’s teaching and would be considered fornication & adultery which = sin.
It should be about the Walk not about I am what I am and God loves me tis way and ccept\s me this way.” To which I say, “Yes, He loves you but not in a sinful state. Repent and be transfformed and walk the the way of Jesus Christ as humanly possible.”

Dr. N, I think they belong in the church like the rest of us sinners - we all struggle and fail and we all, also, often have sins that we are unwilling to recognize as such - it’s part of the journey. And we all, in our brokenness, have gifts to bring to the church. I don’t think non-celibate gays should serve as priests or bishops. And marrying anyone other than a male and female in a church has been against the teachings of the church for two millennia. My two cents.

Sorry to use the cliche, but a good paraphrase of what One Day Closer is saying would be to say,

“God loves you just as you are, but he loves you too much to leave you that way.”

Problem is TEC only believes and accepts the first part, “God loves you the way you are.” TEC does not believe the second part, that we must recognize our sins, confess them, repent, and then go forth and sin no more. It is this second part part that makes it hard work to become a Christian, and who wants to do hard work? Much easier to believe that God made me this way, so I must be OK.

Is what we see in the video the norm for the LGBT community?

Thanks Stayin Anglican,
Well put!

Right, oscewicee,

Priests and bishops must adhere to a higher standard because they are moral leaders. They must be members in “good standing” which means they cannot and must not justify sin either in their own lives or anyone else’s. This doesnt mean that they are perfect or without sin, only that they must not teach it and must lead a life that is a good example for others in the Christian life.

This is why the kind of “full inclusion” that TEC is always going on about flies in the face of the biblical standard for these leaders. Full inclusion in this case, as in the case of Robinson, means elevating unrepentant sinners to the episcopacy. Full inclusion for us traditionalists means acceptance into the church of any repentant sinner no matter the sin, no matter that person’s past history. It means equality with other repentant sinners as in no sin is worse than any other. It means that you can be gay and be a bishop or a priest as long as you are a truly repentant sinner and meet all the other moral requirements. It doesnt take an Einstein to see the theme here, does it.

PS. I meant that last sentence to be jokey, not any kind of insult. I forgot to put the wink in like I intended.

Dr. N., you ask if the GLBT are welcome in our churches to hear the truth of God’s transforming power.  Of course, of course!  One of the church’s greatest failures is its refusal (of which it is proud) to set forgiveness and redemption before the GLBT and all the rest of us sinners.  It means the church contributes to the sin and misery of these whom it claims to help.  It contributes to their (very possibly) broken health and shortened life spans and, at the same time, it robs them of eternal triumph in God.  By validating the “old man,” or “natural” man or woman, it conceals the only good news—of the Atonement—and the availability of newness of life.  I hope that any new American province would be very welcoming to all sorts and conditions of people and would equally set forth the gospel to all, not failing in this obligation and yet not shunning us in our human weaknesses.

The ugly lie most often told by the liberals is that we are in a fight between those who love gays and want them in their churches and those who hate gays and want a church that is purified of their presence.

I’m afraid we often give them too much fuel to make this claim.

Dr. N,
IMHO from what I have personally witnessed and been told by quite a few lesbians & gays is, yes. They would like us to believe otherwise, but for the most part, not all, but most it is. Maybe just not out in the open in parades on a daily basis, but there are clubs, designated public bathroms in parks, airports, amusement parks, etc.. where one may solicit homosexual sex. Places where one can engage in dominatrix and have perverted sexual fantasies fulfilled for a price…Organizations like SOPI and many more like them that promote and encourage such behavior.
Our society is so hung up on S-E-X and everyone’s right to be free with it and in that wwe have fallen by the path of morally correct behavior. Sexual freedoms has had and will continue to have its own adverse reactions on a good and moral society. IMHO for what it is worth which is not much! I realise this! But, I am entitled to it.

Folks I’ve been watching and participating in this fascinating thread for days now.  Boy Sarah you and Gregg hit on one this time.  I know this seems important but don’t Dr N. and the rest don’t you remember that the PB has:

1) Denied the divinity of Christ

2) ECUSA staunchly supports pro choice

This little bit of porn pales in comparison.

Don’t worry, Lee, my biggest concern is the pro-choice stance. But, this thread has been very good from the start, and today’s posts are helping to pull together an orthodox response to it.

We must remember that TEC and many other denominations have been eaten up with the cancer of believing the lie of satan.  He started our parents in the garden with his “new truth” of ‘Yea hath God said…’ just like the liberal seminary professors who question God’s Word.  He told Adam and Eve that they could be the next “god’ and experience the pleuroform truth of evil and determining what was good or evil. He also said God was a meanie and selfishly didn’t want their good, but was hiding the best from them.  Hey, we all bought into that lie and just look around.  In TEC the cancer wasn’t excised in stage one and is now widly metastecised to vital organs and can’t be stopped.  The new ideas on homosexuality, new gospel, etc. are merely symptoms and findings of a terminal disease.  We get nowhere just cutting off the fruit or giving an aspirin for the raging fever.  With cancer, the organ transplant people won’t even take a donor organ from the patient at death.  The gay parade is just another big blob on the catscan.  Nothing to really worry about the false quak physicians say.  And you first learned about it on SF!

I couldn’t help but be struck by the incongruity(I think that’s a word,lol)between Bishop Andrus’ action in walking in the ‘parade’ and affirmation of GLBT behaviour vs the teaching given by the Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 4:2-6.
Downright ironic for his presence in the parade to affirm
lusts of men vs the will of God
pursuing a course of sensuality-excess,unrestrained sexual indulgence of lusts,open outrages against decency,
unrestrained drunkenness,orgies,carousing,drinking parties and lawless idolatry.
Like I said,ironic.

Lee,
Does TEC run abortion clinics anywhere? We shouldn’t disrupt this thread, but it might be good to show concrete involvement and discuss it. The video is what makes this thread good, because it makes the discussion unquestionably real.

OK, I’m confused. For years we have been told that this is all about the acceptance of homosexuals in lifelong, committed, monogamous relationships. So what, exactly, does the participation and blessing of a portable homosexual orgy by an Episcopal Bishop have to do with lifelong, committed, monogamous relationships? Someone please enlighten me. Could it be that we are now being told we have to accept and bless every one of the multitude of homosexual abberrant perversions that are represented in that so-called gay “pride” parade?
Looks like that slippery slope is getting slicker by the hour.

the snarkster

Oh my gosh Dr. N, you should talk to the NOEL folks.  Lets not disrupt this thread but Gregg can you get me back to the T-1 and SF threads on the Washington March?  Dr. N. I think you might be interested.  ECUSA has been a supporter of Planned Parenthood which is one of the most prolific of all.  Again, another thread would be best.

Could it be that we are now being told we have to accept and bless every one of the multitude of homosexual abberrant perversions that are represented in that so-called gay “pride” parade?

Snarkster, for an answer to your question check out my post above. Then answer your doorbell.

from the Briar Patch,

Lee Parker has a point. Any attempt to establish ANY kind of sound Biblical doctrine in TEC these days always gets labled (and quickly brushed off) as mere “Bible interpretation”. Proverbs 29:18 tells us “Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; but blessed is he who keeps the law.” God, of course, has been gracious enough to give mankind His revelation [along with, it seems, the stated implication that it can be ‘kept’]. I imagine that it still can be found in most Episcopal Churches, and nearly every household has one. Its called the Bible. When its plain dictates and meanings are ignored/twisted, either through ignorance or deliberate wickedness (such as putting aside the Scriptures in favor of “a new thing”, much like King Ahaz removing Yahwehs’ brazen alter and putting a pagan alter in its place), or forsaking time honored, Holy Spirit given interpretation and replacing it with—well, some of the strangest exegesis I’VE ever heard-you wind up with the likes of which you see here, being approved and partaken of. “You dont like what you see displayed here? Why you poor, benighted soul; your Biblical INTERPRETATION is all wrong! Just trust US!” I dunno. It sems to me that this ECUSA fish is rotting from the head down, and the rot is pretty well advanced at that. I have virtually no hope that it can be salvaged. Fr. Matt, Sarah and others seem to be alot more optimistic in this regard. Perhaps Fr. Kennedy just enjoys a good donnybrook! Well Matt, you’ve certainly got a tiger by the tail with this one.

Looks like that slippery slope is getting slicker by the hour.

The slipperiness of the slope will soon be irrelevant because the gradient is increasing.  When it reaches 90° it’ll be a vertical drop.

I watched the video of the parade endorsed by a TE"c” bishop.

How much more of this type of stuff must I watch before I qualify for the TE"c” sponsored “Listening Merit Badge”???

I must head off and do some work. This discussion has been very enlightening and I have started digging through NOEL materials. I never could understand how a Christian Chuch can be pro-abortion - yet I have known it is supported by many mainline denominations and is rarely talked about over coffee on Sunday morning or in reviews of convention decisions.

Let’s let it for another thread.

Ah, you have joined the “listening” process.

OK, I’m confused. For years we have been told that this is all about the acceptance of homosexuals in lifelong, committed, monogamous relationships.

Snarkster, the myth of “lifelong, committed, monogamous relationships” was the mantra at GC 2003 but was dropped like a hot potato as soon as VGR was approved.  Ain’t heard much since, have we?

And my great puzzlement all along has been how this applies to the Bs in GBLT.  Monogamous?  Huh?

Moot,

Although you assert that Culeitreach punctuates his comments with Briticisms, there is a distinct possibility that he these are not Briticisms in the strictest sense of the word. IIRC, he mentioned in another thread at SFIF that he is Irish, which I would take to mean that he hails from either the Republic of Ireland (Eire) or Northern Ireland. The Protestant residents of the latter consider themselves British. I am completely uncertain if the Catholics or the citizens of Eire consider themselves British.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

Am I too late? Has this thread passed me by?
Without grinding any axes, posts from this thread previously:
Michaelangelo’s paintings v: pornography; the poetry of the Song of Solomon v: adult film scripts; the roof of the Sistine Chapel v: Girls Gone Wild; Disneyland v: Sodom & Gomorra and Gay Pride parades; Bishops in the Diocese of Los Angeles participating in the Gay Pride Parade in West Hollywood; “full inclusion” v: repentance; riding in the Gay Pride parade for evangelism.

Unless one is seriously deranged for physical or chemical reasons, humanity can tell the difference between something uplifting - appealing to the soul and spirit and something meant to titillate, insult someone, hurt someone, and/or debase.

A major definition of sin is “the perversion of God’s good and beautiful gifts to man.”

I remember what my father told me his grandfather said and grandfather before him, and before him, etc.. “if someone falls into the septic tank, the worst way to rescue him is to jump in with him.”

R. Scott Purdy asks: 

How much more of this type of stuff must I watch before I qualify for the TE"c” sponsored “Listening Merit Badge”??? 

This is a very special badge.  It has the Energizer Bunny Bionic chip which constantly drains any progress you feel you have made in the earning of said badge, reflecting the need for constant work.  The only way you will “merit” this badge is if you agree with TE"c” - thus ending the converstation to their satisfaction.  Then again, that does open you to the oak leaf cluster which requires you to hear more stories. 

Personally, we prefer the bottom-feeder badge of honor.

An Open Letter to post-Christian Bishops in the Episcopal Church

To whom it should concern:

The Episcopal Church should declare itself post-Christian and just get on celebrating their evolution into a more enlightened species.  Please do not continue to believe yourselves to be the same species, however, as those of us who routinely cling to the archaic Gospel in the Scriptures.  Why continue to insult yourselves by calling yourselves Christians and lumping yourselves in with us brutes?

Let us wallow in ignorance all by ourselves!

Sincerely,
Christoferos

We should certainly publicize the Episcopal Church’s stand on abortion.  More people should pick up on Gene Robinson’s address to the 2005 National Planned Parenthood Annual Breakfast, in which he urged Planned Parenthood to “promote abortion rights” in such a way as to counteract traditional religious views: “Our defense against religious people has to be a religious defense. ... We must use people of faith to counter the faith-based arguments against us.” (This appears in the press in a number of venues, including the _Washington Post_.  Here is a link to one of the stories.) 

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=36654

I quote further from this article: “In essence, Robinson advocated the complete reinterpretation of the Scriptures. ‘We have allowed the Bible to be taken hostage, and it is being wielded by folks who would use it to hit us over the head. We have to take back those Scriptures,’ he said. ‘You know, those stories are our stories. I tell this to lesbian folk all the time: The story of freedom in Exodus is our story. ... That’s my story, and they can’t have it. ... We need to teach people about nuance, about holding things in tension, that this can be true and that can be true, and somewhere between is the right answer.’”

Now I will quote from an interview Robinson gave in June 2006:

“Asked how the Episcopal Church stands on abortion, he said, ‘we absolutely stand behind a woman’s right to choose’ and ‘the church has steadfastly resisted efforts to retract in any way our support for a woman’s choice.’” First he said that he believes in “the Episcopal Church’s teachings.”

DAVID HARTLINE (INTERVIEWER): “When is viability? I just put a story on my website about a baby who survived an abortion years ago and she just sang in the Colorado General Assembly. What if a woman came to you and said she’s getting an abortion in her second or third trimester?”

BISHOP ROBINSON: Well it’s her right to choose so though I would be personally against it, that’s her decision. The young woman you mentioned well that’s why I believe in getting abortions as early as possible.

This was an open interview, with several well-known participants. See _The Catholic Report_.
http://www.catholicreport.org/?id=193

You cannot obtain the “listening merit badge” by works, is comes to you by the grace of ++KJS.

The “Energizer Bunny Bionic chip” tests for inclusivity in your blood and sends a report to the Social Justice Ministries of the Episcopal Church.

Could someone put up Paula’s report on Gene Robinson’s stand on abortion as a separate thread? The discussion should be in parallel to this one. Maybe title it “The Gay Bishop’s Perspective on Abortion”.

Thanks

he young woman you mentioned well that’s why I believe in getting abortions as early as possible.

Yep, get her early before she can sing. <gag> Does NOEL have a website?

The young woman you mentioned well that’s why I believe in getting abortions as early as possible.

Hadn’t heard that Robinson quote previously.

As reprehensible a statement as I have ever read or heard from any clergy anywhere at any timel If a similar statement came from another source, presentment charges would have flown at him/her right away from some quarter.

+++Cantuar, primates, godly people—Discipline on all of aisle #815, if you please.

NOEL has changed its name to Anglicans for Life. Their website is here:
http://www.anglicansforlife.org/index/

Thanks, Br’er Rabbit!

Dr. N,

In reply to your question

Is what we see in the video the norm for the LGBT community?

and in amplification of the quote by Moot which stated [emphasis in original]

for the most part, not all, but most it is

I would add that someone posted (on SFIF) a link to a web page on this site in the last few days, which I looked into yesterday or the day before. This would certainly indicate that the sort of thing you have seen in the video is fairly endemic in that community. Again, as Moot said, it is certainly not all homosexuals, but it is certainly many.

Another fact of which many may not be aware, or at least may not have noted, is that some twenty and more years ago, the term “gay” in its current usage in relation to male homosexuality had the very distinct connotation of promiscuous male homosexuality. The term was associated with those male homosexuals who frequented bath houses, etc. This was also the first time I heard the general usage of the term “gay lifestyle,” and it had that same very specific connotation. By the early 1980s it had been incorporated into the common name of the disease we now call AIDS, namely GRIDS (which was an acronym for Gay-Related Immune Deficiency Syndrome).

The following is purely speculative, but I have oftened wondered why the homosexual community has adopted the term to refer to male homosexuals in general, when the term was so heavily colored by that connotation in such recent times. Other explanations are certainly possible, but one must certainly wonder whether this connotation is not still intended. Were I a member of the male homosexual minority and opposed to promiscuity, whether or not I were celibate or in a committed relationship, I would be screaming at the top of my lungs that while I was homosexual, I was not “gay,” in order to make it abundantly clear that I did not sanction the lifestyle that the use of the label implied. All the more so, since the misappropriation of the term is frequently ironically antithetical to its historical usage among the general population.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

Gene Robinson said: “‘You know, those stories are our stories. I tell this to lesbian folk all the time: The story of freedom in Exodus is our story.” ??????????? The story of the Exodus is a story about lesbians?? Does anyone know which version of the Bible that VGR reads? I have a KJV, NKJV, ESB, NASB, NIV, Greens Literal, JPS-when I read the account of the Exodus in any of them, even when I read through the entire 40 chapters of the book, I cant find anything about lesbians. Can somebody help me out here? (MAN-I coulda’ SWORE that the story of the exodus was the account of Yahwah leading the people of Israel out of the bondage of Egyptian slavery, and entering into a covenant with them so that they would be His holy, set apart people, and then giving them His righteous Law-but hey, I’m not a Bishop, so what do I know?)

Distribution of the video heading this thread is not good for the image of the GLBT community. I am surprised they are not here along with TEC supporters to defend their case against it. We can only assume it is an accurate representation of the lifestyle, and that TEC supports this lifestyle.

Kyrie Eleison ...

There needs to be a chart that compares TEC and orthodox Anglican positions. Then, links to discussion formus and resources that clearly show the positions and actions of both sides. For example, compare the agendas of Anglicans for Life with Planned Parenthood. This table should be before those going through the discernment process and those considering joining churches of the Anglican Communion.

Ok folks, show my ignorance and send me the link. 

I must run out and be entertained this evening. Bye.

snarkster,

How can you be so non-inclusive as to ask whether we are

now being told we have to accept and bless every one of the multitude of homosexual abberrant (sic) perversions

Do you realize how many partnering variations you are excluding—not even considering that exclusively interhuman polyamory might count as more than one variation ?

You really do need some EEO training, if not counseling.

Good grief, by your thoughtless and narrowly defined speciesism you have just simultaneously offended NAMBLA, the AKC, the SPCA, numerous associations organized in the interests of Equus caballus—not to mention caballeros gay or otherwise, and who knows how many others.

Shame! Shame!

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

Thank you, thank you, thank you. No applause necessary. Being that offensive requires a lot of help. I’d like to thank Mrs.Snarkster and all the little people behind the scenes that make my offensiveness possible…

the snarkster

Oh, and I apologise for the extra “b” in aberrant. Please don’t “sic” me no more. I’ll spell better next time, I promise.

the snarkster

Dr. N.,
If you think the GLBT groups are the only activist group that TEC has made an unholy alliance with go to the following sites:
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_37993_ENG_HTM.htm

The RCRC is an aggressive pro-abortion lobby and the Episcopal Church is an Official Member of this organization. This is another alliance our church has made without the knowledge or approval of most Episcopalians. If you go to the following site you will find out a little bit about how they operate:
http://www.rcrc.org/calltojustice/current_cases.php
Scroll down and read the RCRC’s Friend of the Court Brief, in which they try to persuade the Supreme Court that Partial Birth Abortion is necessary for the health of the mother. The Supreme court did not agree.

Christoferos,
Your intended jab of a open letter post is bassackwards! Those who believe in the Scriptures of 2000+ years are the Christians as we believe that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God is the only way to the Father. Unlike all of those who think there are differnet paths and journeys and that fornication and adultery of the same sex kind is a blessing from God….So maybe you should go about your own way and we Scripture believing, repenting of our sins to be transformed in His likeness Christians will continue to pray for your enlightenment.
Have a nice and blessed day.

One Day Closer, I think Christoferos suggested that revisionists should call themselves Post-Christians, not Christians.

Gene Robinson said: “‘You know, those stories are our stories. I tell this to lesbian folk all the time: The story of freedom in Exodus is our story.” ??????????? The story of the Exodus is a story about lesbians??

Bob K,
Gene is a freakin’ wackadoodle! Remember it is all about him….everything is all about him and his “people” the LGBT’s. I keep asking myself, “What was he really doing in seminary classes? Writing love letters to some of the young seminarians?” becuase he surley doesn’t know his scripture very well at all….this just added more proof to the mixed nut pie that he is making.

snarkster,
Mis-spellings are an art form and I rather think that they show the depth of human-ness and down to earthliness we possess….I should know…I do them all the time and it’s just part of my good charm!
I’ll not ever hold it against you!
Your Sister in Christ and Mis-Spellings

My apologies….I misread….forgiveness asked. I rather like being an archaic Gospel believing scripture walking Christian” personally.
But again thank you for bringing my faux pas to my attention and I profusly apologize to Christoferos.

“Bishop Marc Andrus—how could you do such a thing? How could you lend your name and the Episcopal church’s name and the name of Christ to this public display and celebration?”
I doubt that we will get an answer and that is why we must pray for and support those Christian leaders who endeavor to lead our church out of this nightmare.  I hope and pray that Common Cause can bring us together.

Yikes!

243 comments and climbing!

Jill Woodliff, your “How to Pray for a Desolate Church” post was a godsend.

But your links to the Atlanta Pride Parade brought back memories of Piedmont Park 35 years ago.  We weren’t exactly out in force back then, but we were out.  Nothing more flamboyant than tie-dyed tee shirts with the Lambda symbol, chanting: “2, 4, 6, 8—gay is just as good as straight.”  No floats, no drag queens, no nudity.  Hardly safe to do even that much at the time, anywhere outside of New York or San Francisco, but we did it. 

As for the video of the San Francisco parade: I just broke down and wept.  How could one not do so?

But go back and look at this guy, from the Folsom Street Fair, I think:

http://lonestartimes.com/2007/10/02/scenes-from-the-folsom-st-fair/

I can’t get him out of my mind, and here’s what I want to know:

What was he like on the day of his birth, at his 3rd birthday party, or his first day at school?

Did his parents love and care about him, or was he just someone’s unwanted mistake?

What were his thoughts about his emerging sexuality as a confused and troubled adolescent?

Did he ever learn so much as “Jesus loves me, this I know”?  Any Christians in his life at all?

And if he crossed my path today, would he learn even that much from me?

What happened?  Dear God, what happened?

That’s what I really want to know the most, and I’m weeping again.

Look long and hard at that face.  It is the face of a person created in God’s image, a person whom Christ died to save, who has been ravaged by sin and led astray by the Enemy of our souls.

He will learn what it means to turn to Christ in faith and repentance through the witness of faithful
Christians—or he will never learn it at all.

May God break our hearts and drive us to our knees, that we may become equipped to provide that essential witness to our neo-pagan society.

“The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.”

Not even on Folsom Street, or in Piedmont Park.

Don’t know how this will go over, but some of you may appreciate this link:

“For Such Were Some Of You—How Are Christians To Treat Homosexuals?”

http://www.middletree.net/hs.asp

God bless!

episcopalienated, I am moved by what you have written here, and its truth. I am glad that there will be many in heaven who have fought the battle to remain pure and won through God’s grace, who will be shouting the great victory shout. I do pray that many, many more can be made free, even in a culture which holds so many in sexual bondages of many kinds. “such were some of you, but you have been redeemed!”

Dr. N,
If you are a medical Doctor this may be of interest to you.
http://www.rcrc.org/programs/ingoodconscience.cfm

It is so sad that The Episcopal Church does not provide Christian help for people who want to escape from this madness.

Wonderful article, episcopalienated.  Thank you for your presence on this blog, your courageous witness, and your kindness.
Betty See, the church lost much of its healing ministry in the 4th century.  I think that loss has helped lay the groundwork for this crisis.

Yeah..yeah, I realize I will probably be the last one to post on this thread, but I really must get this off my chest. It is a little OT, but if you will bear with me, I think you will see the resemblance to the “parade” and what we here at SF wish the outcome of this entire fiasco of TEC to be.
Culeitreach:
Since you brought it up and since I can make somewhat of an allegory of Michaelangelo Buonrotti’s life and work in the Sistine Chapel, both on the ceiling (not the roof) and the wall behind the altar, I will try to clear up a few of your “misconceptions”. First, just so there is no mistake, Michaelangelo was gay. This is important, both allegorically and in truth, to the end of this story. Living in Florence in a time when it was both a pious and decadent city (when Savonrola became popular and much feared) and when being a homosexual was punishable by death, he was a tortured soul, having a deep and abiding belief in God and being a slave to his own desire. He said about himself “I live to sin, to kill myself I live; no longer is my life my own, but sin’s; my good is given to me by Heaven, my evil by myself, by my free will, of which I am deprived.” So, this is the state of mind of the man whom Pope Julius II summoned to Rome on the pretext of another sculptural project, but later scrapped that project and commanded Michaelangelo to paint the Sistine Chapel. Now, you must understand that Michaelangelo detested painting and held this art form in the deepest contempt. He had no experience whatsoever painting in the fresco method (quite a remarkable result, wouldn’t you say?). At any rate, he was confronted with 1000 square meters of blank ceiling, waiting for him to apply his brush. Now Cule, you mention the massive, hulking bodies of the figures on this ceiling, the masculine appearance of the women and, of course as only you could, the “homoerotic” nature of these figures. First, imagine if you will, how un-awe-inspiring this ceiling would be if the figures had been painted as the ethereal, wispy beings we associate with heavenly beings. The impact would not be quite the same, would it? Yes, these figures were very masculine. Michaelangelo was a sculptor, first and foremost, so he painted as he sculpted, massively. Yes again, his models were male; however, he had an obsession with the beauty of the human body, a beauty that he believed God created, and he strove to perfect that beauty, much like the ancient Greek sculptors he admired and studied. As for the “homoerotic” assumption, it’s just that, an assumption made by many who can’t help themselves, like many of those in Michaelangelo’s own lifetime. I have always been taken aback when I hear someone make that observation. It has never occurred to me to view it in that manner. So, he labored on this project for four years and it was finally completed in October of 1512. Were some offended by it? You betcha. Others were enthralled to see the glory of the Old Testament wrought larger than life. I hope someday to see it myself. And so we move on to the Last Judgement, begun in 1536 and completed in 1541 (on Christmas Day), a commission from Pope Paul III Farnese. Again, there were those who were offended and those who were not. Pope Paul III Farnese’s successor, Paul IV Carafa hired Daniele da Volterra to paint clothes on the most offensive parts. Michaelangelo was not bothered by this: “Tell his Holiness that this is a small matter, which can easily be rectified. Let His Holiness attend to the reform of the world; reforming a painting is easily done.” This was literally true. The fresco itself was permanent, but any touching up after the fresco was dry could be easily removed, even after dry, with a wet cloth or sponge. It was in our own lifetime that Pope John Paul II had The Last Judgement restored it its original state. Fast forward again to the year 1547, when Michaelangelo had an epiphany of sorts. The only woman in his life and his great friend, , Vittoria Colonna, died. She was a widow who had retired to a convent, but occasionally returned to Rome to visit her friend. She helped him regain his faith and when she died, his grief was overwhelming. He was 72 at the time and full of regret at the “great mistake” he had made all through his life:  “the fond imagination, which made art for me an idol and a tyrant”. From that time on he would only focus on “that divine love which, on the cross, to embrace us, opened wide its arms” (see recantation below). The last 20 years of his life were devoted to raising glory to God, including St. Peter’s. He said “many people believe, as I do, that this task has been placed before me by God…I do not want to shirk it, for I serve from love of God, in whom I place all my hopes.” He gave up the sinful lifestyle of his past and concentrated on God. If you are ever fortunate enough to see the Sistine Chapel in person, remember that not only was Michaelangelo depicting the Old Testament and The Last Judgment, he was depicting his own tortured soul. In his recantation he wrote: “My life’s journey has finally arrived, after a stormy sea, in a fragile boat, at the common port, through which all must pass to render an account and explanation of their every act, evil and devout. So now I fully recognize how my fond imagination, which made art for me an idol and a tyrant, was laden with error as is that which all desire to their own harm. What will now become of my former thoughts of love, empty yet happy, if I am now approaching a double death? Of one I am quite certain and the other threatens me. Neither painting nor sculpting can any longer quieten my soul, turned now to that divine love which on the cross, to embrace us, opened wide its arms”.

So where does the “parade” play into all of this rambling? Think of the “parade” (having just witnessed the Oklahoma Centennial Parade this past Sunday, it’s hard for me to call that display of depravity a parade) as Michaelangelo’s life. Even a man who lived most of his life in sin came to know the Truth of the work he created. He knew the Truth revealed by God, both in the Old Testament and The Last Judgment and repented. Wouldn’t you say this is what we wish for ALL of our brothers and sisters in Christ?

lizzie

Jill Woodliff,  I realized healing wasn’t emphasized but I have been to healing services in the Episcopal Church and found them very helpful. What happened in the 4th century?

In 2003 at VGR’s ordination as Bishop of NH, fellow Pittsburgh priest the Rev Earle Fox publically opposed continuing the ceremony by graphically describing the life expectancy of gay males as 45 years because of sodomy, STDs, HIV-AIDS, etc. After a few moments PB Frank Griswold cut him off with the remark, “We’ve heard enough, spare us the details”.
Progressives by and large simply do not want to hear or deal with the facts.

Gahhh!

Espiscopalianated, I love you buddy, but I sure wish I had known that your link had an image that I was trying to avoid seeing today, or ever, for that matter.

Here is a clue to what I mean. I am going to go right now and stare at a real crucifix for a long while….

But I also thank you for the other link at the bottom of your post. It needs to be said. Over and over. Sin is sin. All sinners are equally sinful and equally loved by God. All are in equal need of love and healing from God, Our Father. All are in equal need of the compassion of the Church. 

You are much appreciated around here.

Episcopalienated - You and Manny Publius are people we can easily listen to and have many conversations with because it is be two way.  We appreciate your contributions (except for maybe some of the first link!!!!) and the second link was great.  Please know that our frustration with the “conversation process” was in no way directed at you.  May God continue to bless you and your witness.  Agree that you are very appreciated here by us.

Even though it is quoted often, we are reminded of what Jesus said in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Duh!

I am so very sorry for failing to provide a warning note about that first link.  Please forgive me.

There are images which are obscene and blasphemous, although I have seen much worse.

I found that page as a link within a link and for some reason I was riveted by that man’s face.

But the pictures below him are like a glimpse into hell, and not everyone needs to see that.

Again, I apologize.

On the other hand, it does provide some idea of what hell looks like in the lives of people who are trapped in such a lifestyle.

Not the witty, urbane, sophisticated “revisionists” we usually encounter on this blog, but victims of Satan with the masks off.

Nevertheless, I will avoid linking to anything so graphic in the future.

Which brings me to ask the rhetorical question to the all clergy of ECUSA and laypeople.  How could you do this to your kids?  If the association with this type of behavior is not child abuse I don’t know what is.

“Jesus would be in the Gay Pride march—no question! He kept company with the whores and tax-gatherers, and shared his table with them. He did not come to judge the world, but to save the world through love. The Pharisees didn’t get it then, and they don’t get it now.”
- Tobias Haller, commenting here on this thread.

“Jesus would be in the Gay Pride march—no question! He kept company with the whores and tax-gatherers, and shared his table with them. He did not come to judge the world, but to save the world through love. The Pharisees didn’t get it then, and they don’t get it now.”

But He didn’t hang out with prostitutes because He thought prostitution was peachy-keen.  He sought them out becauseit is “those who are ill who need a physician.”  He would have told them in no uncertain terms to mend their ways.

Jesus would be in the Gay Pride march—no question! He kept company with the whores and tax-gatherers, and shared his table with them.

Of course, Jesus kept company with whores and tax-gatherers, and shared his table with them.  Did he hang out in the brothel, and bless the women and their clients, as they repaired to “do business”?

Actually, William Witt, I also have it on good authority that Jesus would have marched in the Klan rallies too . . . you know, because he “kept company with sinners” and such.

; > )

No, Jesus would not have MARCHED in those parades.  He would have been at the finish line, or along the parade route, drawing participants to him, and healing them.

Seems obvious, doesn’t it?  And yet, even good reappraisers like Rev. Haller block the “go and sin no more part” from their minds.  As I’ve said in many exchanges with them, they’ve only learned half the Gospel.  There’s nothing wrong with the half they know, except that without the rest of the story, it’s no Gospel at all.

But He didn’t hang out with prostitutes because He thought prostitution was peachy-keen. He sought them out becauseit is “those who are ill who need a physician.” He would have told them in no uncertain terms to mend their ways.

St. A,
I agree cpmpletely, but this is where the LLR (Liberal Left Revisionists) are not hearing because it is easier for them to “re-write scripture, revise attitudes on acceptance.” Like a spoiled child they will continue to be defiant because they like the sin and the sinful behavior and I think in large part because they get attention with it as an aside kudo and they like that. Some children and adults will act out & be outrageous just for the attention even if it’s negative. Look at Gene Robinson, “It’s all about me and my people Gene Robinson.” Susan Russell, “I’ve embarrassed my Bishop and I will continue to embarrass my Bishop, Susan Russell.”
To ignore the transformation that Christ came to do is not what they are interested in and rebel against because in their view it is “boring, just like everybody else, I’ll lose he attention and spotlight, etc…” I am sure there is alot mor to itthan just his scenerio, but this is a very deep rooted symptom of the disease of
sin.
In a nushell…..
Sinning: We want to, we like it, it’s fun (for a while), it gets us attention, it has shock value to it, and we are (in our mind) in control and don’‘t have to relinquish said control to a God who will force us to live a boring life with no fun in those things we love so much that may or may not be so bad for us.

Forgot to add…
I personally don’t see my strict Christian life and walk as boring…quite the contrary. I am challenged everyday and when I wake up and meet those challenges and bite the hard bullet of obedience in Christ I find that I have just grown and am able to be used in a way that I never imagined by God for His purpose on His terms not mine. Life, even in its degenerate state these aays is an adventure but, only when I let go and let God.

Those things that are worth while & worth having in life do not come with ease and without some pain….That is what makes them an awesome value worthy to be had and to work hard for in living life in Christ…the benefits are out of this world.

Lizzie2 - Thank you so much for taking the time to post that fascinating information about Michaelangelo.  I hope Cully reads it, but i doubt he will.  As someone else said earlier, facts and details are not welcome to the reappraisers.
Anyway, thanks again.

God could mid-evil on your hiney San Francisco. You could slide into the ocean at any time: you sit on the Bishop Andrus Fault.

Sorry, it’s Friday.

Dr. N,
I have to admit and confess I found your Friday Palette Cleansing remark about Bishop Andrus Fault rather amusing since I have lived through 2 earthquakes here in California and losing one home in one of them. If I can laugh at it everybody should be able to laugh at it.

The wicked freely strut about
when what is vile is honored among men. 
(Psalm 12:8 NIV)

Let’s pray that more people get their heads together out there and it doesn’t happen again. This video is doing far more damage than global warming.

Frances, except for a courageous minority of ECUSA, the church has remained silent.  From this day forward I will not give them a pass, including the orthodox.  I believe you would be an interesting person to have a cup of coffee with.  God bless.

...except for a courageous minority of ECUSA, the church has remained silent. From this day forward I will not give them a pass, including the orthodox.

Interesting comment Mr. Parker…in which camp do you sit I wonder? I for one can say with clear conscience that as a lay person in the Traditional Orthodox Conservative camp I make plenty of noise and sometimes find myself in the boxing ring. But that’s okay because it is for my eternal salvation and others that I make the noise and take the jabs and the hits gladly ...label me what you will but my pass comes from God and God alone.

You are the minority ODC and I’ve been here since 2003.

You are the minority ODC and I’ve been here since 1953.

I became aware of the rot from within PECUSA at age 18, but I sat on my butt in a pew for 28 years and did nothing to change it. May God forgive all of us.

from the Briar Patch,

Make that 32 years.

I did ECUSA for about 20 Rabbit.  I’m with you.  I meant I’ve been with T-19 and/or SF since 2003.  If ODC doesn’t know what camp I’m in he/she has not been “listening.”

Mr. Parker,
Where have you been since 2003? Stand Firm? If that’s what you are referring to then I guess anyone who has come after you holds no merit or is less in your opinion? I have always thought of myself as a minority….but there are some groups and races that consider me in the “majority.” Quite frankly I don’t care how long you have been wherever you have been since 2003 and I don’t care if I am or am not a minority in some views or in others, it is God’s view that I am more concerned with, as well as you should be.

Mr. Parker,
If you have asked for God’s forgiveness you have reeived it and you know that…It is what you and I and the rest do now that counts….seize the day!
Blessings

Mr. Parker,
I am a she, a sister in Christ, and I do not spend my every waking or leisure moment on Stand Firm and I don’t bother with many other sites as I find what I need right here on SF when I am able to get enough time to be here. I took two months off from SF due to work out of state….now I find myself couch ridden with a broken ankle and have such time…I rather think you are being very harsh and critical, but I forgive you as you are my elder as you have so pointed out.

I’m sorry about your ankle.  I’ll pray it heals soon.

This thread has had some wonderful posts on it.  I will mention especially CarolynP on Michelangelo and episcopalianated on the pity of the human condition when without transcendence; and the topic of both of you, really, is the beauty of the human condition as created in God’s image and transformed by Christ.  (Truly, what hope do humans have without that Atonement and that transformation? I think that’s the overall theme that remains with me from this thread.)  Thanks for these thoughtful, moving posts—and those from others as well.

Those who should really take note of this are those in Bp Parsley’s diocese.  After all, it was he who so heralded Andrus as a moderate, and the future of the church, and such a fine fellow, and in the mainstream, etc., etc.  So this, Alabama, is your future, so endorsed by Bishop Parsley.  This is what he thinks is “moderate” and “reconciling.”  This is what he thinks is mainstream.  Is this the church you want?  Because this is what you have, and what with Andrus you had.  It was only disingenuous cloaking of how he really was that kept the truth from you.  And that had to have been done with the involvement of Bp Parsley, who must have know the difference between how his suffragan was presented and how he really was.  What else are you not being told?  What else is being kept from you?  Wake up, Alabama.

Paula, I hope you are not giving me credit for that extremely informative post on Michaelangelo - that was provided by Lizzie2.

Alabama getaway, get away
Alabama getaway, get away
Only way to please me
Just get down and leave and walk away

Even here in Texas, they had “Gay Pride Day” at Six (comment edited by administration) Flags over Texas.  I accidently ended up there one year with my kids.  Not the sort of behavior I wanted them to see.  The “Gay Pride” parades have been going on for years…I am surprised more folks don’t know about them.  They should be renamed what they are - “Sin on Parade”.

Lizzie2, it is indeed your post about Michelangelo that I found so thoughtful and moving.  Thanks, CarolynP, for the reminder.  I was remembering from “the top of my head” and am glad to give the proper credit!

Has anyone noticed that the G-L bunch seem to have been casting off the BT part recently?  G-L is straight forward but when you come to consider the other two goups, life and justification becomes a lttle more complicated.  I seem to be hearing that much more lately.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Please refrain from the use of derogatory language or name calling.  It does not serve well.

“I accidently ended up there one year with my kids.  Not the sort of behavior I wanted them to see.  The “Gay Pride” parades have been going on for years…I am surprised more folks don’t know about them.  They should be renamed what they are - “Sin on Parade”. “

B. Hunter this is exactly what I’m talking about in several of my earlier posts.  What if you walked up on the San Francisco parade by accident with your kids.  BTW there were young children present.  This is not child abuse?

I’ll tell you that if some of those characters walked up to my children, they wouldn’t need to worry about their pride or sexuality.

Christ’s Church Cathedral in Hamilton, Ontario, “has been a proud supporter of PRIDE events for several years.” I very much doubt it would be the only Anglican cathedral in Canada to have done the like. Shameful.

As this thread seems to be winding down, might be good to end with the good news we have from Scripture about who we are and our call to holy living.  Again, from I Peter 2:

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
.  .  .  .  .
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.  Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.  Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

I’m late to the thread, but this is what happens when the nose of the camel is stuck into the tent and not firmly, but lovingly pushed back out:  the ugly derriere follows, sooner or later.  It is also what happens when deviancy is defined upward, the abnormal is allowed to become the new normal and promoted as such, and nice people do nothing.

john4woman,

The end of this thread can be the beginning for many of us. Having left an Episcopal congregation recently, I am being careful about where I might go on Sunday morning this week. This thread has been enlightening and gives me hope that God is still with me.

I know there is a serious problem represented in the video, and I know this is just one of the many problems with The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion. I now understand more about how those who disagree with the direction of TEC are perceived by those who run TEC.

I see before me a calling to be a missionary to The Episcopal Church.

I won’t hold up scripture before the GLBT community. The people who carry posters, protesting at Gay Pride parades, aren’t helpful. Such people are viewed as people of hate. I cannot win the battle by quoting scripture or by saying GLBT behavior is sinful.

I will find a new congregation where I am wanted. A person with heritage in the Church, who is educated, talented, kind, encouraging, optimistic, and accepting is wanted in every congregation. I will do my best as a human and child of God to love everyone there and grow in my faith.

I will calmly and carefully express concern about issues in the national church and integrate those concerns into discussions of Christian Education. I will join the “Inquirer’s Class” and ask the questions that trouble me. I will be prepared to show pictures and articles in small-group discussions to make my concerns clear.

I will be flexible, show no anger toward anyone, and back off, if my input is not appreciated. If discussion is suppressed or hardened, I don’t need to return, or I can judge when and where return would be productive. The congregation can decide who they want in their church family. It is my responsibility to be a person they will want to keep, and a person they remember favorably if I leave.

I will be a member of _Episcopalians Anonymous_ until I feel the church is a truly safe place for me. I will introduce myself by first name only, and not give past affiliation, address, etc. Right now, I must conclude the “church” sees me as a person of beliefs to be eliminated, and I do not wish to place myself at personal risk. the open baptism of TEC gives me the freedom to commune without traceability.

Again, I will let them see my good works and let them work to keep me. I will be very careful in giving money to support the work of the congregation until I become a member of a group I can trust, and know my contributions aren’t suppressing the Gospel.

God has let TEC to go their way and walk apart from the Church. I must follow the guidance of scripture to serve our Lord and turn away from those who support the sinful world. I must judge for myself the intents of a local congregation and where they are heading. If they are heading me to Baal, I must move on. I am not there to change them. If the church isn’t accepting the Gospel, it is my responsibility to follow it for them, and not my job to change them.

I will live the Great Commission with confidence that I will find other Christians around me. How glorious it will be to find company with those in Christ. The disciples didn’t know the truth any more than others who have followed. They were commanded to use their gifts and move forward in the name of our Lord.

Dr. N writes: “I see before me a calling to be a missionary to The Episcopal Church.” Intriguing. I’ll say one thing; if those fields arent white for harvest, then they’re composed of such “rotton figs that they cant be eaten” and may be spewed out of the Eaters mouth. Nevertheless, I am not the one to judge which is true. Even in the case of Gods blistering wrath, brought down upon Jerusalem by the hands of the Babylonians, there were still a few who God spared, and made up a remnant, whose descendants did return to rebuild the city. Is TEC Sodom and Gomorrah? Or is it backslidden Jerusalem? Only God knows. I wish you every spiritual gifting as you seek to witness Gods grace and kindness to those around you, Dr.

Is TEC Sodom and Gomorrah? Or is it backslidden Jerusalem?

It is Jerusalem forging an allegiance with Sodom and Gomorrah.  With them, and against us.  I wish them joy of it.

The Episcopal congregations still have many Christians in them. What they need are potential new members asking questions who won’t settle for liberal answers.

People bring children to see this spectacle? What is wrong with them?

I know the S. Boston St. Patrick’s Day parade committee came under fire a few years ago because they wouldn’t allow GLBT marchers/demonstrators. I know many in the city of Boston were relieved because, drunken orgy notwithstanding, the St. Patrick’s Day parade has always been a family event.

Dr. N,

I do believe that God is calling some to more or less “swim upstream” into TEC, and minister to the Christians who find themselves caught.  If you’ve prayed about this, and feel strongly that this is your calling, go to it!

That said, I would caution you on one point.  Do not sit under the authority of a heretical rector.  Not even for one second.  The influence that a pastor or a rector has on a parishoner is profound - even if they disagree on a lot of things. 

I know of only one instance in which an orthodox parishoner had a positive influence on a heretical pastor.  The woman I’m thinking of was sitting in a Sunday School class, and the pastor said something like, “We all know that Jesus wasn’t born of a virgin.”  One woman rose her hand, and politely informed the pastor that it was his job to preach a set of doctrines as if they were true, even if he did not believe them to be true.  The pastor accepted the gentle rebuke, and did just that - his job. 

Years later, he met his former parishoner again, and thanked her for the rebuke.  He also said that he had a conversion experience, which I believe. 

The circumstances were different, then.  Things are a lot nastier, now - even in the mainline denomination that witnessed such an odd exchange in her midst, all those years ago. 

Do yourself and the Christians who would benefit from your missionary ministry a favor - find an orthodox rector to sit under.  As Kendall says, “You can’t give what you don’t have.” 

FWIW,
- Moot
(on a TEC missionary excursion of my own) 

Actually, now that I think of it, it was a Dutch housewife who first took a brash heretic known as Abraham Kuyper to task, many years ago (The other example I’m thinking of took place roughly within my lifetime). 

As the story goes, Kuyper’s first pastorate was troubled by parishoners who simply refused to go to hear a heretic in the pulpit.  Kuyper went from house to house to find out why, which is when he met the woman. 

So… “showing-up” doesn’t always work.  Sometimes, it’s not showing up. 

Thank you Moot. I could say much to your points, but don’t feel I should at this time. Maybe just a few comments to cool this.

I have picked a parish church to attend tomorrow, and it will be good for me to support their worship. On the surface they seem to have several options for Christian formation, including an adult Bible study on Sunday morning. They are a large and wealthy congregation in a very conservative part of town. Their webside doesn’t contain the words “radical inclusion,” progressive, etc., and their music program follows RSCM. They are in search for a rector after a retirement and have shown growth through these troubling years. They are naturally in a period of discernment.

I have a close friend who is an orthodox priest a few hours from here and another connection to a startup orthodox parish. I am comfortable walking into churches of many denominations, including those in Canada and Europe where other languages are used in the worship service. I’ll be fine.

Thanks again for your comments and guidance.

Apparently Andrus has his own weblog:

http://bishopmarc.vox.com/

But I don’t think it has a Comments section.  Pity.

But I don’t think it has a Comments section. Pity.

Cowardice I suspect. He can play in the kitchen but prefers to it to without the oven being on.

Actually, ODC, I’d say it has more to do with the All Is Well program.  It is difficult to deny any dissention in the ranks when they post to your web-blog. 

‘sounds tractable. 

Father God, grant this your servant the shrewdness of serpants, and the innocence of doves.  In Jesus’ Name,  Amen