I realize this is going to get me in trouble with our Worthy Opponents, and probably a few of my fellow Roistering Adventurers as well, but whenever I read things like this said by former archbishop Desmond Tutu, I am more and more convinced that they are nothing more than the ramblings of a sub-standard intellect:

Nobel Peace laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu yesterday thanked Pittsburghers who worked to end apartheid in South Africa and received an unprecedented dual honorary doctorate from the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon University.

He also threw down a theological challenge on a doctrine that the worldwide Anglican Communion is threatening to split over.

In his sermon, he poked fun at the belief that only those who accept Jesus as their savior can enter heaven.

"Can you imagine that there are those who think God is a Christian?" he said to laughter from a mostly appreciative audience. "Can you tell us what God was before he was a Christian?"

The address was given at Calvary Church in Pittsburgh, home of The Rev. Harold Lewis, who is suing the Diocese of Pittsburgh.

[Tutu] invoked his friendship with the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Buddhist leader who has been exiled from his homeland for nearly 50 years. Although others would be embittered, the Dalai Lama is filled with "bubbly joyousness," he said.

"You have to be totally, totally insensitive not to know you are in the presence of someone who is holy and good."

He then asked, "Can anyone say to the Dalai Lama, 'You are a good guy. What a shame you are not a Christian'?"

His question drew laughs, but was a direct challenge to conservative Anglicans, who have long said that their deepest concern about the Anglican Communion is not gay ordination but the rejection of classic doctrines about Jesus. One of the most important is the belief that humans can only come into the presence of God if their sins have been forgiven, and that their sins can only be forgiven because Jesus died to atone for those sins.

After equating that with the belief that "God is a Christian," Archbishop Tutu spoke of a human family in which members must love one another even when some relatives are obnoxious. When Jesus said he would "draw all" people to himself, he meant both President Bush and the "gay, lesbian and so-called straight," he said.

Thank you, bishop Tutu. Say, when you have some time, my so-called wife and I would like to talk to you about our so-called marriage. Can we meet you at your so-called church?

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Comments:

What a shame that Desmond Tutu is not a Christian

[1] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-26-2007 at 08:29 AM • top

“Can you imagine that there are those who think God is a Christian?” he said to laughter from a mostly appreciative audience. “Can you tell us what God was before he was a Christian?”

I can’t say anything about this that wouldn’t be rude. Fr. Matt, you said it all.

[2] Posted by oscewicee on 10-26-2007 at 08:32 AM • top

“Can you imagine that there are those who think God is a Christian?”

Can you imagine that there are “Christians” who think Desmond Tutu is God?

[3] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-26-2007 at 08:37 AM • top

In his sermon, he poked fun at the belief that only those who accept Jesus as their savior can enter heaven.

This got me wondering what reading from what so-called gospel was the basis for his so-called sermon.

And I’d expect that he must have quoted KJS on her small-box theology.

[4] Posted by hanks on 10-26-2007 at 08:40 AM • top

He then asked, “Can anyone say to the Dalai Lama, ‘You are a good guy. What a shame you are not a Christian’?”

In fact I believe that is what Christ would have said. I believe the phrase he did use was “No one comes to the Father but that he comes through ME.”

What a shame that Desmond Tutu is not a Christian

What? Matt, he has the same beliefs as the PB, and I have it on good authority (from Father Van no less) that she is a strong Christian.

RSB

[5] Posted by R S Bunker on 10-26-2007 at 08:42 AM • top

Archbishop Tutu is a wonderful man and witness for Christ who has done a great deal for his country and for Christianity in Africa; I always enjoy listening to him and am sorry that he is now unwell. You need not agree with him on all matters to respect and value him.

[6] Posted by Pageantmaster on 10-26-2007 at 08:47 AM • top

By Millstones and Necks! What sillyness is this?!? It’s a shame that the word fool is not as powerful as it once was.

[7] Posted by Saint Dumb Ox on 10-26-2007 at 08:48 AM • top

I value what he has done for his country, Pageantmaster. A scoffing speech like this, I value not at all.

[8] Posted by oscewicee on 10-26-2007 at 08:49 AM • top

The Archbishop may once have been a wonderful man and witness for Christ. Now he seems just to be a wonderful man because the Christ to whom he bears witness is a false one.

[9] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-26-2007 at 08:49 AM • top

It took you this long to be convinced?
The man is a complete an utter tool, literally.

[10] Posted by Rocks on 10-26-2007 at 08:55 AM • top

On one level and a narrow reading, query what of the position before Christ in a human form lived; but of course he was there, the Word from the beginning so what was God before Christ is a mistaken question. Christ was and is always part of God who is outside time and space as I understand. Such is the Trinity.

[11] Posted by Pageantmaster on 10-26-2007 at 08:59 AM • top

Those of us in da ‘Burgh are not at ALL surprised that the Bp. Tutu was speaking at Calvary - not at all.

[12] Posted by GillianC on 10-26-2007 at 09:04 AM • top

Archbishop Tutu is a wonderful man and witness for Christ

Why would he have bothered doing that?

[13] Posted by James Manley on 10-26-2007 at 09:07 AM • top

One question for the Bishop:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.

43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 ” ‘The LORD said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”
46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

[14] Posted by Rocks on 10-26-2007 at 09:08 AM • top

Abp Tutu is only accorded respect because of his fashionable stand against apartheit way back when. He is not recognizably Christian and his pronouncements since he bacame a celebrity keep confirming it. He appears to have the same understanding of Christianity as KJS and the rest of the TEC revisionist crowd.

[15] Posted by evan miller on 10-26-2007 at 09:19 AM • top

I see that there is a video of some parts of his sermon on the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette site here

[16] Posted by Pageantmaster on 10-26-2007 at 09:31 AM • top

Another person wearing a collar that should not be! Just because someone endures much for a cause that is a just cause does not give them a free pass to push leftist, unchristian, views and heresies with applause because “he endure much for the mases.” Truly I give the man all the credit in the world for all he suffered and did, but he has now crossed a line and weaing a collar doing it. When do we say “No! Enough! You are no longer fit for the collar you wear.” And strip them of it!

[17] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 09:33 AM • top

Christ was and is always part of God who is outside time and space as I understand. Such is the Trinity.

So I think, too. And Rocks, I don’t think it’s right to view Tutu as a mere tool. I think he is stating what he believes, sadly.

[18] Posted by oscewicee on 10-26-2007 at 09:33 AM • top

Michel Foucault: God is Power; manifest through discourse that creates knowledge

So-called knowledge is not an awareness of truth, rather people talk and create knowledge; So-called truth is irrelevant, uninteresting, unhelpful, and existent only as imagined to be by the powerful.

What?

There is to be found a certain intellectual poverty of mind present today. Some so-called intellectuals have despaired of the very concept of truth. Desmond Tutu suffers from this despair, so pray for him.

Pray for all who have despaired of the concept of truth. They have been convinced by so-called intellectuals that truth cannot be known. They believe there is only the hegemony of the powerful, who create knowledge through their discourse so as to control others.

Christians believe that in the beginning was the Word, and that the Word is God.

These so-called intellectuals believe that in the beginning their was a desire to exercise control over other people, and that words were created in order to exercise that control. They believe that God (so-called) is Power, and Power is the use of words to create knowledge for the sake of controlling others.

I am not making this stuff up. I wish that I were.

When you meet people who have despaired of the concept of truth, you will not be able to help them. They say silly things like, “God is not a Christian.” Never mind that this statement does not make sense without equivocation; this shows you that they have despaired of the concept of the truth.

You cannot use words to help someone recover from this fatalism when it is precisely words that are at the heart of their despair. In truth, they are actually nihilists, but they keep talking so as to distract themselves from the real consequences of their despair. They must keep playing language games, lest life itself become too burdensome to perpetuate.

If these so-called intellectuals pause for too long from playing language games, they slip into the realization that they are nihilists. I say with sadness that we have lost many extremely smart people, because their despair of truth was so deep that they sought Judas’ solution to this feeling of loss. They killed themselves.

It is only the belief that there is truth, and that truth can be known, that can save someone from the despair of nihilism – finally and completely. Otherwise, all someone has left is the language game, trying to distract oneself from confronting the consequences of nihilism.

Believe in truth. Believe in God. Believe the Son of God has made truth known. Believe that you may have life.

This is the…
Simple Path

[19] Posted by Simple Path on 10-26-2007 at 09:37 AM • top

Most problematic in Archbishop Desmond Tutu’s comments was his observation, “Can you tell us what God was before he was a Christian?”

By definition, Archbishop Tutu’s christology is at most Arian. The famous slogan of the Arians in the 4th Century christological debates was: “There was a time when the Son was not.” In contrast, the eternal preexistence of the second hypostasis of the Trinity (the Son) is the hallmark of Nicean Orthodoxy (and is found in the beginning of the Gospel of John).

According to formal theological terminology, Archbishop Tutu is not merely incorrect but is heretical in the classic sense of the word (if he meant what he said).

In Christ,
John Clay

[20] Posted by John Clay on 10-26-2007 at 09:40 AM • top

“Please help me, says God. Help me to realize my dream,” he concluded, to great applause.

The poor fellow has no mother or father to help him. Somebody needs to do it so I’ll help him. I’m going to adopt God through the Christian Childrens Fund.

[21] Posted by Piedmont on 10-26-2007 at 09:45 AM • top

Pre-Christian paganism would be an improvement.

Tashlan. Sputten.

[22] Posted by Moot on 10-26-2007 at 09:49 AM • top

It is a clear holding by the ancient Eastern Orthodox Church Church that to say that God “exists” is open to question in the sense that apophatically (acknowledging that God is beyond human categories ) the divine mystery is beyond existence-non-existence, as it is beyond masculine and feminine, and the merely human notions of good and evil. It is true in a certain way that God is not a Christian in the sense of human limitations put upon the transcendent mystery of God, but just think how easy it is to misconstrue the apophatic approach and abuse the mystery of God by relativizing the divine out of all proportion. It takes a far keener intellect coupled with a much deeper spiritual disposition than Tutu has, to deal with these levels of consideration. Talking the way Tutu does is shallow and extremely misleading. John Perkins in princeton U. (a convert to E. Orthodoxy from the Episcopal Church in 1995)

[23] Posted by OrthoJohn on 10-26-2007 at 09:49 AM • top

Piedmont,
I believe that Brad Pitt has signed on to help him do just that just as well. A man who left his wife for another to live out of wedlock and adopt many children from around the world. Part of the new world view.
Sad! Very very sad!

[24] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 09:49 AM • top

Yes, poor God, all the way up there in heaven, no way to get things done. Good thing he has us.

[25] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-26-2007 at 09:50 AM • top

When did God start dreaming and stop acting?

[26] Posted by oscewicee on 10-26-2007 at 10:00 AM • top

“Can you imagine…”

Wow, very deep thought, Rt. Rev. Dr. T. I might consider letting you catechize one of my house plants.

[27] Posted by tired on 10-26-2007 at 10:04 AM • top

Another example of why I pray God to release me from this body before my mind becomes confused. I do not want to outlive my usefulness for furthering His kingdom.

[28] Posted by Frances Scott on 10-26-2007 at 10:05 AM • top

Can you tell us what God was before he was a Christian?

Well…I think that part was a joke. Did anybody here ever read “The New Adventures of Jesus?” It was a comic book that came out in the 60-70’s. It seemed to be very irreverent but actually had a serious message. Some of Jesus’s “New Adventures” occur during his own time frame and some occur in modern America. In one episode that occurs today, Jesus is trying to fill out some bureaucratic form and he doesn’t know what to put for “religion.” So the bureaucrat says “well..are you a Jew, a Protestant, or a Catholic?” Jesus says “All three.” The bureaucrat says “You can’t be. You have to pick one.” So Jesus says “Jew I guess. All that other stuff came after my time.”

I don’t think this was intended to be a serious theological statement in the comic book and I don’t think Desmond Tuto intended it to be either. Now that other stuff, such as about the Dali Lama, he clearly intended to be serious and I think that’s something that needs to be thought about seriously.

[29] Posted by Catholic Mom on 10-26-2007 at 10:10 AM • top

I’m sure you all know that Tutu spent a residency at Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Mass - you know the seminary that is an annex of the Universalist Unitarians…....

[30] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 10-26-2007 at 10:16 AM • top

Too too much!

[31] Posted by DaveW on 10-26-2007 at 10:31 AM • top

“Can you imagine that there are those who think God is a Christian?”

“Can you imagine that there are those who think TEC is Christian?”

[32] Posted by st. anonymous on 10-26-2007 at 11:04 AM • top

“I value what he has done for his country, Pageantmaster. A scoffing speech like this, I value not at all.”

Bishop Tutu is a good illustration of the extent to which Satan has infiltrated the Anglican branch of the Church Militant.

[33] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-26-2007 at 11:11 AM • top

Nonsense, all of you. God is defined by the unique polity codified in the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church.

[34] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 10-26-2007 at 11:18 AM • top

Catholic Mom,
I pray that you are right.

My mere layman’s answer to Bp. Tutu would be “to me you seem to misunderstand the nature of the great ‘I AM’. Using your words, God always was and always will be a Christian. If you believe the nature of God changed on a certain day in Israel 2000 or so years ago, then you in the words of the current PB ‘put God in too small a box’. If, dear sir, you mean should we challenge our concept of God, and Christ specifically, to be greater than our feeble minds comprehend on most days, especially most Sundays, then you speak truth.

However, if you are denying the Trinity and the resurrection, we must agree to disagree and I will pray for your soul. And in the meantime, until you return to the traditional understanding of these matters, I beg you to please remove that collar and purple shirt. It confuses a lot a people. It may even risk their path to truth that God has revealed to me, if not to you or the dear Dalai Lama.

As for the Dalai Lama, and our other Buddhist friends, many faiths great and profound spiritual leaders have a great understanding of the knowledge of ‘truth’ that is not formed from a classical Christian understanding. I’ll leave it to words crafted under the leadership of the current Pope under the direction of JPII to articulate better than I can the nature of that ‘truth’. Surely, you don’t mean to constrain Christian belief to hold that all goodness and morality to only exist within traditional Christian understanding and denominational structures. Again, that does indeed ‘put God in too small a box’. But, sir, my faith teaches me that my path to heaven will not be complete if I merely trust in my goodness and morality. For that I indeed need Christ redeeming power and my faith teaches me, so does all mankind.

Peace to all and prayers for Bp. Tutu,

[35] Posted by miserable sinner on 10-26-2007 at 11:24 AM • top

Folks, we are reading an article by Ann Rodgers, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. We only have a few video clips of the sermon. Those clips show an old priest gathering a flock and saying things to get laughter. It think we are commenting on the theology of Ann Rodgers, and missing the body language and tone of the old man. I would save most of this discussion until we can see the entire sermon.

It is clear to me that Ann Rodgers has an agenda and she has patched words together, including those of +Duncan to make her points. Desmond Tutu may have lost much in recent years and may be used at Calvery Church, but I think we are commenting on Ann Rodgers agenda in this case.

[36] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-26-2007 at 11:37 AM • top

Having spent time in Tibet, I realized upon returning what a slick marketer the Dalai Lama is. Tibetan Buddhism is a seriously dogmatic religion, but the Dalai Lama gets portrayed as the most tolerant liberal “holy man” on the planet.

When the Pope takes a stand to keep the Faith from being subverted it is portrayed very negatively. The truth is that the Dalai Lama, though in exile, still sends out decrees declaring who the orthodox Buddhists are and who the heretical Buddhists are, but the press and his Hollywood friends look the other way.

[37] Posted by Nyssa on 10-26-2007 at 11:42 AM • top

Thank God that ++Tutu has evolved beyond caring what people think about him, especially when it comes to THIS crowd.

[38] Posted by Virg on 10-26-2007 at 11:47 AM • top

Let me also take this opportunity to thank most of you for providing my daily entertainment. No comedian makes me laugh as hard as some of the BS I read on this blog.

[39] Posted by Virg on 10-26-2007 at 11:49 AM • top

Dr. N,
I applaud your “benefit of the doubt” theory, however, I am still highly suspect of Tutu. After reading the interview with he and Brad Pitt, Anne Rodgers or no, he to me tetters towards Arianism not Christianity. You must be better at the “benefit of the doubt” than I and I maybe be way to cynical but, I have come to lear hat if it quacks like one, walks like one, it is one.
Best Regards

[40] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 11:54 AM • top

I keep getting a V-fly on my screen! Does anyone have an internet fly swatter?

[41] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 11:58 AM • top

Just curious. Did Bishop Tutu ask for Bishop Duncan’s permission to cross boundaries?

[42] Posted by William Witt on 10-26-2007 at 12:00 PM • top

“I keep getting a V-fly on my screen! Does anyone have an internet fly swatter? “

It’s okay, dear… just take some Castor Oil and have a seat.

[43] Posted by Virg on 10-26-2007 at 12:04 PM • top

I would like to see and hear the whole sermon and also all of +Duncan’s comments. The article smells of liberalism and a reporter’s ignorance of Christian Theology.

At the same time, the credential of Nobel Lauriate hit an all time bottom with Al Gore, so I don’t know what to believe unless I hear him. Even then, like so many, his fingers may be crossed behind his back. But, until then, hearing and seeing him is better than reading a liberal report.

[44] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-26-2007 at 12:05 PM • top

*sigh* It’s all I can muster anymore…

[45] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 10-26-2007 at 12:06 PM • top

Here’s the thing,... IF we confess Jesus Christ and claim that relationship and become part of Christendom and His Church, accepting the Scriptures which by their own proof are all that is needed for faith and salvation, if even then some become clergy in His Church, faith and integrity DEMANDS we preach & speak only that which we have promised to uphold.

Are there other ways to heaven? - That’s for God to sort out, KJS, Tutu, whoever, et al, etc. have a moral and integrity based duty and obligation, even if brain and faith wavers, to follow the Scripture… They may wonder all they want - we all do, but can only say as above “That’s for God…” but WHAT WE KNOW is that Christ is the only way. (My edit: Are you willing to take your chances?)

[46] Posted by DaveB in VT on 10-26-2007 at 12:07 PM • top

“Tibetan Buddhism is a seriously dogmatic religion, but the Dalai Lama gets portrayed as the most tolerant liberal “holy man” on the planet.”

</i>

It continually astounds—and amuses—me to see the right holding the Dalai Lama up as a shining example of tolerance when his views on homosexual activity are just slightly to the left of Fred Phelps.

[47] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-26-2007 at 12:10 PM • top

DaveB - well said!

At the same time, we are to respect all of God’s creation and that different beliefs are to be tolerated. We even are to welcome tose with divergent beliefs into our Christian communities. However, full communion requires baptism and a belief, among other things, that for Christians, the only way we know to God is through Christ.

When baptism is taken away, we have turned our Christian churches into a social clubs.

[48] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-26-2007 at 12:14 PM • top

Tutu sounds like an iffy Christian, but he sounds like a PERFECT Episcopalian!

[49] Posted by Rolling Eyes on 10-26-2007 at 12:27 PM • top

Oh, and Mr. Griffith, you might want to be careful questioning the intellect of a black man just because he says something you don’t agree with.

It makes you sound like a reappraiser.

[50] Posted by Rolling Eyes on 10-26-2007 at 12:30 PM • top

Dr. N.,
This not the first time Tutu has been quoted as saying “God is not a Christian.” I read it several years ago in an interview in either TIME or NEWSWEEK.

Virg,
He has also evolved right beyond orthodox Christian belief.

[51] Posted by evan miller on 10-26-2007 at 12:37 PM • top

God is God. God is to be worshipped. We are His creatures. We are His worshippers. Because the God we worship is a God in Three Persons, one of whom is the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore we are “Christians.” Literally, therefore, to call God a Christian confuses the difference between worshippers and the Object of our worship. But at the same time, the Jesus whom we worship said that “No one comes to the Father but by me.” So the Christian religion preaches that we come to God through Christ.

Really, how hard is this?

[52] Posted by Johng on 10-26-2007 at 12:38 PM • top

“Thank God that (we) has(ve) evolved beyond caring what people think about (us), especially when it comes to (non-Christians).”

[53] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 10-26-2007 at 12:43 PM • top

The Pilgrim,

You meant that the left is always holding him up?

I also find it funny that the same people on the left who would attack the RCC (and some Anglicans & Orthodox) for its teachings on celibacy go mum when it comes to the Dalai Lama who is also celibate. Apparently celibacy is an unreasonable requirement which induces human misery in all cases except for his. He seems quite happy for all that he represses his sexual desires….

[54] Posted by StayinAnglican on 10-26-2007 at 12:47 PM • top

“Please help me, says God. Help me to realize my dream,” he concluded, to great applause.

So we’re way past God as co-pilot. Now God is praying to us? Got it.

[55] Posted by Reason and Revelation on 10-26-2007 at 12:47 PM • top

I must take a shower. I was addressed in a note with Virg.

Sáncta María, Máter Déi, óra pro nóbis peccatóribus, nunc et in hóra mórtis nóstrae. Ámen

[56] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-26-2007 at 12:49 PM • top

LOL! Dr. N
I was told Castor Oil would help! That was something my grandmother thought every newborn baby should be given to clean them out immediately! LOL!

[57] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 12:55 PM • top

StayinAnglican:
Exactly. The left is so anxious to embrace the Dalai Lama as an example of how inclusive and to;erant they are, that they have never taken the time to examine what he actually believes and lives. Most liberals have no idea how at odds with their beliefs his actually are.

[58] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-26-2007 at 01:01 PM • top

Dr. N,
Please forgive me for having included my note to you in the comment that included a remark to Virg. I centainly didn’t intend to imply that you were of a similar mistaken bent as he.

[59] Posted by evan miller on 10-26-2007 at 01:05 PM • top

Evan and One Day Closer - The words to an old Gospel tune filled my head. And, I say over and over - Castor Oil, Castor Oil, Castor Oil. It must be Friday.

http://www.josephinecameron.com/music-33.html

Bow down low and bend your head
Bow down low and bend your head
Bow down low and bend your head
For to sweep the Lord’s house clean

Yes I’ve come to wash and clean
Yes I’ve come to wash and clean
Yes I’ve come to wash and clean
From this floor, the stains of sin

Sweep high, sweep low
Sweep clean as you go

Bow down low and bend your head
Bow down low and bend your head
Bow down low and bend your head
For to sweep the Lord’s house clean

[60] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-26-2007 at 01:25 PM • top

Thanks Dr. N to the Josephine Cameron song…much better Friday Paletter Cleanser then the rap as entertaining as it maybe to many. I rather like Josephine Cameron better.

[61] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 01:46 PM • top

Josephine Cameron’s song Unclouded Day is a wonderful Friday Paletter Cleanser. The whole version is at her site in wideband audio.

http://www.josephinecameron.com/music-group-1.html

[62] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-26-2007 at 02:04 PM • top

Ah, I see there are others up there.

[63] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-26-2007 at 02:21 PM • top

The Dalai Lama has condemned homosexual behavior in as stern terms as I can imagine—much more clearly than most orthodox Anglicans have. (I was going to cut-and-paste but was afraid I’d be banned—just use google for “A gay couple came to see me, seeking my support and blessing.”). I wonder how the other side is going to be able to spin this one.

[64] Posted by James Manley on 10-26-2007 at 02:41 PM • top

How will they spin this? Same way as usual:

Dalai Lama condemns homosexuality. Liberals: “We must understand his cultural context.”

Iranian ex-president/mullah condemns homosexuals to death. Liberals: “We must understand his cultural context.”

Peter Akinola condemns homosexual practices. Liberals: “How dare he, that eeeviill bigoted barbarian savage SOB!”

[65] Posted by st. anonymous on 10-26-2007 at 03:00 PM • top

James Manley wrote:

I was going to cut-and-paste but was afraid I’d be banned …

so I have provided this link to the second page of the three page article James to which James was referring, which is where the first qoute will be found.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[66] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 10-26-2007 at 03:33 PM • top

Altitude sickness: what Greg Griffith cannot perceive (because it is simply over hishead), he mistranslates as inferior. The notion that a Christian can ask the question “Is God a Christian?” is incomprehensible to him, just jibberish really. Fortunately, this is a view that does not (yet) hold sway in the Episcopal Church. Thank God that there are some corners of Christendom in which holy men like Desmond Tutu can flourish and be recognized rather than deeply misunderstood. I’m grateful for that.

Unity is a high value for Christians, who are called to sacrifice in order to stand together as one in Christ. However, it is possible to pay too high a price for unity. At whatever cost, the Church cannot afford to lose the sacred space in which it is possible for the higher mind of Christ to take shape. There are many, many places within Christendom where attitudes like those expressed by Greg Griffith are allowed to reign. But the views of Desmond Tutu, however rare, are, I think, precious to God.

[67] Posted by joeperez on 10-26-2007 at 03:36 PM • top

Fortunately, this is a view that does not (yet) hold sway in the Episcopal Church.

Actually, Joe, it’s a view that held sway for ages, and Desmond Tutu’s view has only popped up pretty recently.

But I expect that those who think that the higher mind of the Co-Eternal Son is taking shape in a space that the Church could possibly lose are unlikely to take note of that.

[68] Posted by Ed the Roman on 10-26-2007 at 03:56 PM • top

joeperez,

Wherever I may reside on the intellectual spectrum, I do understand something Desmond Tutu evidently does not: Christianity holds that Christ is God incarnate, that God the Father and God the Son are one; thus to separate Christ from God is not to deny some minor theological point over which reasonable Christians may quibble; it is to deny Christianity itself. There is no doubt whatsoever that God loves Desmond Tutu, but I’m also pretty sure He’s not exactly thrilled about Tutu’s scoffing at the notion that He is Christian in nature.

[69] Posted by Greg Griffith on 10-26-2007 at 04:00 PM • top

Isn’t making God a Christian making Him a sinner?

[70] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-26-2007 at 04:25 PM • top

joeperez,

I believe this (your) view does hold sway in much of the Episcopal Church and Susan Russell does a very good job of explaining it succinctly on her blog:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21609676&postID=2421786940455745472

With all due respect to your intellect, I don’t think it’s a difficult argument to follow, I just disagree.

[71] Posted by JimmyMac on 10-26-2007 at 04:47 PM • top

RE: “Thank God that ++Tutu has evolved beyond caring what people think about him, especially when it comes to THIS crowd. . . . Let me also take this opportunity to thank most of you for providing my daily entertainment. No comedian makes me laugh as hard as some of the BS I read on this blog.”

I have come back from a hard day of labor and find this Utterly Crushing comment from a person that I had always hoped to emulate.

I have long admired this commenter, and to learn that we are sunk quite beneath reproach is a Devastating Blow to me.

It is Friday and the end of a long week—and in just a few seconds time, I have been Completely Shattered.

Is there naught that StandFirm may do to earn back the good esteem of so Admirable and Respected a commenter?

If we cannot win the good opinion of this man . . . than . . . what can we do?

I mean . . . if Virg does not appreciate us, then I suggest that we are simply beyond hope.

I for one am past caring any more about my life’s troubles, now that I have learned that another progressive—one as coherent, rational, consistent, and principled, . . . and yet loving and kindly as Virg—does not like us and indeed, uses his well-earned reputation to Mock Us Mercilessly with Wounding and Devastating Slashes of His Piercingly Broad and Rich Vocabulary.

I also fear that those who discover that someone as well-respected as Virg does not approve of us will also then reject us utterly—and the news could spread like wildfire.

This is the Final Cruel Blow to an already weakened esteem, which is now Quite Dead.

“Bury My Heart At Wounded Blog.”

Signed,

Shrinking Anglican Violet

[72] Posted by Sarah on 10-26-2007 at 05:04 PM • top

Please don’t ban him, Sarah! We need entertainment, too!!

[73] Posted by st. anonymous on 10-26-2007 at 05:07 PM • top

Sarah,
You are my nominee for this years Best Actress Academy Blog Award.
You almost had me convinced (wink) ;>)

[74] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 05:09 PM • top

Hoe interesant dat jullie heben geen probleem om waartaal te spreken, maar niet te horen!!!
Als ik gebaand bin, daan is het vreulijk voor mij. Tot straks!

[75] Posted by Virg on 10-26-2007 at 05:27 PM • top

More Friday evening entertainment from Tokyo Virg:

To the tune of “God Bless America”
(sing fervently with great emotion)

I am an Anglican, I am now free.
Not ‘piscopal, liberal, or Methodist,
I am stingy, slanderous and mean.

Hate the leftys, hate the [edited for vulgar slur of gay people],
Hate the Democrats while white with foam….

I’ll be an Anglican ‘til my life is done,
Thank God I’m Anglican, we’ll keep them on the run.

[76] Posted by Virg on 10-26-2007 at 05:36 PM • top

As a Canadian whose father grew up in the twenties, I remember him telling me stories about the formation of the United Church of Canada when he was young. There was great dispute about its formation. My dad attended a Presbyterian church (where I was subsequently baptized). He would tell of the minister, after church, going outside and rolling up his sleeves and having fist fights with those who opposed his views. I remember thinking “how barbaric”. But, after reading Virg’s last bit of venom, I actually think that a good, clean fist fight would be far more gentlemanly and above board than what Virg chose to post. As one who has adopted the USA as my country, I am both quite liberal and quite patriotic. To use “God Bless America” for such drivel is beneath contempt.

[77] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 10-26-2007 at 05:53 PM • top

The devils had a board meeting. “We need a new strategy” says the boss.

“Let’s tell them there’s no God!” says one.

“No, He has left too much evidence lying around.” he replies.

“We’ll tell them there’s no Hell!”

“Nope, they already see so much evil around them, they figure there’s got to be one.”

“I know!” says a third, “We’ll tell them there’s no hurry!”

And he got promoted.

Robert

[78] Posted by Robert Easter on 10-26-2007 at 06:01 PM • top

Isn’t Christianity a human attempt to know the mind of God and follow His will through the teachings of His crucified Son? Isn’t this a bit like asking if Jefferson was a Jeffersonian?

[79] Posted by Jeffersonian on 10-26-2007 at 06:03 PM • top

Hoe interesant dat jullie heben geen probleem om waartaal te spreken, maar niet te horen!!!
Als ik gebaand bin, daan is het vreulijk voor mij. Tot straks!

Sfmsnxiln rfdmigln gmdir djszhegb dripoinc elwij fcfe, wjoiwa szdasuf verjhestliu dnfih!

More Friday evening entertainment from Tokyo Virg: To the tune of “God Bless America” ....

Virg, you do realize your effort neither rhymes nor scans, right?

[80] Posted by st. anonymous on 10-26-2007 at 06:04 PM • top

Hoe interesant dat jullie heben geen probleem om waartaal te spreken, maar niet te horen!!!
Als ik gebaand bin, daan is het vreulijk voor mij. Tot straks!

Be it known that there many on this blog site who can speak, read and write many different languages. You will be found out and thus may not save you from the commenatrix axe even if you think you ae being sly the light will be shed upon you!
Shame and you call us mean? I can’t hold a candle!

[81] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 06:23 PM • top

Apparently God (and ++Tutu) are John Lennonists. Imagine… Ono, I hear Yoko warming up in the sacristy… or is that the (k)nave?

[82] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 10-26-2007 at 06:24 PM • top

And now . . . this superior scholar returns to Mock Me with Dutch.

. . . and in the Penultimate Nightmare, going So Far as to issue the Cruellest Blow of All . . . he inserts certain misspelled words like “waartaal” to show on the one hand his Scholarly Sangfroid, and on the other his Cavalier Disdain for our own Great Primitiveness, conscious that none of us will even remark upon or notice the words that are so misused.

The consciousness that one of our most esteemed Progressive Commenters . . . a man that I suspect is probably the Highest of the High of Progressive Episcopalians . . . one that is most likely the Most Sophisticated, and Most Intellectual, and Most Substantive, and Most Witty, [Yet Graceful] and Most Coherent and Most Elegant with a Turn of Phrase [and of course, the Most Loving] of that Entire Universe of Progressive Episcopalians that has probably ever commented on this Lowly Blog . . . has now indicated, with a Wave of His Regal [yet Loving] Paw, how beneath contempt we are . . . this Rejection is More Wounding than I could have conceived.

It is hard for me to really quantify the devastation that I feel—or even select which Cut Of His Rapier Rhetoric and Rich Ciceronian Tones has wounded me most deeply.

Is it the simple stark fact that the Brightest and the Best of the Progressive Episcopalians has so dismissively Rejected Our Blog?

Or is it the inserted misspellings of Dutch, that so clearly demonstrate Just How Little He Thinks of Us?

I cannot say.

It is hard for me to define, or select, or quantify.

All I know is that I have already called in another Prozac prescription. And made an appointment with my therapist. And begun re-reading Sartre’s No Exit . . .

I fear, though, that it will all be to no avail. Such trivial and small tools to ward off so Great A Blow.

I am tottering away now . . . Do not Follow Me, I go to a place where none can.

“Bury My Heart At Wounded Blog.”

Signed . . .

Black Nihilo

[83] Posted by Sarah on 10-26-2007 at 06:27 PM • top

She will go into the west, and remain Galadriel… (sniff)

[84] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 10-26-2007 at 06:30 PM • top

No, no, Cindy T . . . not Galadriel, and not even Smaug—I am the small worm that Smaug crushed under his claw one day while trekking back to his hoard.

Obviously . . . Virg is Galadriel. [sob]

[85] Posted by Sarah on 10-26-2007 at 06:34 PM • top

Wartaal. Bedankt, Sarah

[86] Posted by Virg on 10-26-2007 at 06:36 PM • top

Ah, yes… should have recognized the Netherlandian Elvish greeting he left us…

[87] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 10-26-2007 at 06:38 PM • top

Virg apparently knows Dutch. I’ll try and do a translation later, if it’s worth the effort…

[88] Posted by DavidSh on 10-26-2007 at 06:39 PM • top

A translation is not necessary. Just know that I LOVE you all SO MUCH!!! (especially Sarah- you busy this weekend?)

[89] Posted by Virg on 10-26-2007 at 06:41 PM • top

TOLD you! You are Galadriel - to Virg’s Gimli!

[90] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 10-26-2007 at 06:52 PM • top

RE: “Wartaal. Bedankt, Sarah . . . “

No, no—I shall not be Taken In. I know when something is deliberately done and there is no doubt that those misspellings were there simply To Insult Our Low Intelligence.

Don’t think that I can be Led Astray Again . . . We May Be Primitive, but we know when we are Rejected And Judged by those of Higher and Deeper and More Loving Spirituality—and we certainly know when someone as Sophisticated and Subtle as Virg is out to Slap Us Across the Face with His Gauntlet of Deliberate Misspellings.

I can Envision Your Aura From Here . . . and it is a rosy Pink, with a few fluffy clouds floating by, while mine is, alas . . .

Deservedly Dark and Pitch-Like.

One of my psychiatrists has just now called me to suggest Effexor after this latest blow—he thinks that it will complement the Prozac and Xanax.

I go now to acquire the prescription.

“Bury My Heart At Wounded Blog.”

Signed,

Smaug’s Aura, [after he is dead]

[91] Posted by Sarah on 10-26-2007 at 06:53 PM • top

(especially Sarah- you busy this weekend?)

Heh.

Heh heh.

I’d pay money to see that, Virg. She’d build a cage with your bones.

[92] Posted by Greg Griffith on 10-26-2007 at 06:56 PM • top

That’s IT Greg. She’s SHELOB!!!!!! Virg….. run away before it’s too late!!!!

I’m outta here. Way too OT and above my paygrade. And sticky.

[93] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 10-26-2007 at 07:07 PM • top

Simple Path: anti intellectualism is not the answer. neither is caricaturing michel foucault.

[94] Posted by AnnieV on 10-26-2007 at 07:07 PM • top

Simple Path:

When you meet people who have despaired of the concept of truth, you will not be able to help them. They say silly things like, “God is not a Christian.” Never mind that this statement does not make sense without equivocation; this shows you that they have despaired of the concept of the truth.

You cannot use words to help someone recover from this fatalism when it is precisely words that are at the heart of their despair. In truth, they are actually nihilists, but they keep talking so as to distract themselves from the real consequences of their despair. They must keep playing language games, lest life itself become too burdensome to perpetuate.

I am fascinated by the insight into the nihilist mindset that your post demonstrates, particularly where language is concerned. Your comments call to mind this observation from Gregory Fried’s “Heidegger’s Polemos: From Being to Politics”:

“Such nihilism treats language as terminology, the stuff of user manuals for the domination of beings.”

This is what is so striking about the theological jargon of revisionists. An attempt to use language as a means of manipulation, with words devoid of their original meaning, designed to obfuscate and deceive. And I do believe that this tendency does find its origin in what you so rightly describe as “the heart of their despair.” Above all else, an exercise in self deception, and at what terrible cost.

Yes, we do see this in Archbishop Tutu’s words (and I mean by that a great deal more than “God is not a Christian”). We see it on this blog almost every day. So much “fresh hell,” as Mr. Griffith says.

Thanks for such an illuminating post, and I will offer you with this from Fr. Seraphim Rose’s “Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age”:

“Doctrines and institutions may be ‘reinterpreted,’ emptied of their Christian content and filled with a new, Nihilist content; but Christian faith, the soul of these doctrines and institutions and alone capable of discerning this ‘reinterpretation’ and effectively opposing it, must be completely destroyed before it can itself be ‘reinterpreted.’ This is a practical necessity if Nihilism is to triumph; more, it is a psychological and even a spiritual necessity, for Nihilist rebellion dimly senses that the Truth resides in Christian faith, and its jealousy and its uneasy conscience will not be appeased until the total abolition of faith has justified its position and ‘proved’ its truth. On a minor scale, this is the psychology of the Christian apostate; on a major scale, it is the psychology of Bolshevism.”

What can we do to help them? Perhaps pray that they “lose their faith” (such as it is) in the hope that by doing so the existential anguish this produces will drive them to seek an encounter with the living God? Thankfully, He still works in mysterious ways. Honest atheists are still finding that out all the time, the hard way. Good for them!

And by responding with patience, charity, and true discernment to what they’re about. Maybe some of them are listening.

God bless!

[95] Posted by episcopalienated on 10-26-2007 at 07:09 PM • top

Your comments call to mind this observation from Gregory Fried’s “Heidegger’s Polemos: From Being to Politics”: “Such nihilism treats language as terminology, the stuff of user manuals for the domination of beings.”

Is Fried referring to Heidegger’s nihilism here? This seems - to me - an excellent description of Heidegger’s language.

It seems like such an easy course, to take the heart out of things, to render meaning meaningless and therefore nothing to worry about—except—what is left then? They react against Christian hope and faith, but what would it be like if no one voiced Christian hope and faith?

“On a minor scale, this is the psychology of the Christian apostate; on a major scale, it is the psychology of Bolshevism.”

I don’t think it’s an accident that we frequently notice likenesses to Soviet thought/rationale. We sling around words like “communist” and “Bolshevik” as political insults, but remove all the leftist/rightist political cant and there is still a sort of Soviet “pragmatism” at work.

And by responding with patience, charity, and true discernment to what they’re about. Maybe some of them are listening.

May God grant us that patience, charity and discernment and deliver us from the frustation and impatience that can make us speak too harshly and heedlessly. Thank you for this post and for mentioning these authors.

[96] Posted by oscewicee on 10-26-2007 at 07:50 PM • top

Virg -
The vulgar slur you used above is in a violation of the comment policy and your vulgarity has been edited. You are hereby warned.

[97] Posted by commenatrix on 10-26-2007 at 08:39 PM • top

Ummmmm…so. Was Tutu saying Jesus is not the way to the Father? Or was he saying God is not a Christian? Two totally different things. If God is God and Christ is God, and Christian means follower of Christ, then Christ isn’t a Christian, He is the Christ—God incarnate and Risen Lord. WE are the Christians because we follow Him. He is THE Christ, not a Christian. The thought of God following Himself is crazy talk.

So is the idea that Jesus is not the way to the Father—more crazy talk.

BTW—Sarah—was Virg calling you Elder Sarah, or was he saying you are decrepit? ;^)

[98] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 10-26-2007 at 08:56 PM • top

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYTQcVeoiyA
Intercessor

[99] Posted by Intercessor on 10-26-2007 at 10:29 PM • top

Grg,
I think Intercessor is competeing for Palette Cleanser of the day. Actually after the Dutch Speak fro Virg, this was refreshing!

[100] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 10:32 PM • top

Ops! Laughing too hard to type Repost
Greg,
I think Intercessor is competeing for Palate Cleanser of the day. Actually after the Dutch Speak from Virg, this was refreshing.

[101] Posted by TLDillon on 10-26-2007 at 10:35 PM • top

Sarah,

The inference in your comment

… I suspect is probably the Highest of the High of Progressive Episcopalians . . . one that is most likely the Most Sophisticated, and … of Progressive Episcopalians

that Virg is probably Episcopalian should, I think, not be assigned a high degree of confidence (statistically speaking). There are not a great number of Dutch-speaking Episcopalians.

Mind you, I am not saying that you might not be right that he is, I just think the probabilities are against it. It is more likely that he is Dutch Reformed, assuming he is actually “churched.”

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist
—”Der allgemeine Glaube, den Whisky mit Alter verbessert, ist zutreffend. Ich das älter werde, mehr, die, mag ich es.”—[Ronnie Corbett]

[102] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 10-26-2007 at 11:27 PM • top

Tutu is probably the greatest living Anglican; and he has done more to reach out to the wider community of people of good will than any other Anglican leader has done. There is no other Church leader of his moral stature. So to hear you lot writing him off tells me how very far you have departed from normal standards of judgement, because your anti-gay obsession blinds you to everything else. You would do better to be sitting at his feet and learning from him.

[103] Posted by culeitreach on 10-27-2007 at 02:07 AM • top

If Anglicanism (as we have known/loved/etc) were to have a single epitaph I would consider this, uttered above, as deserving serious consideration:

Bishop Tutu is a good illustration of the extent to which Satan has infiltrated the Anglican branch of the Church Militant.

[104] Posted by Martin Reynolds on 10-27-2007 at 05:02 AM • top

So to hear you lot writing him off tells me how very far you have departed from normal standards of judgement, because your anti-gay obsession blinds you to everything else.

LOL! That’s really reaching, ‘Treach!
The reason that we’re down on Tutu has to do with his rejection of Christianity’s claim to Christ as the exclusive means of salvation. No “anti-gay obsession” need be in sight.

On the other hand, a Universalist approach would naturally lead to antinomianism, which is most certainly tied to acceptance of homosex within the Church and our society.

And that raises another point - in matters of sexuality, the orthodox do not have a problem with Gays. The problem is that homosex cannot be reconciled with Scripture.

I rather think you’re the one obsessed with anti-gayism.

[105] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 05:43 AM • top

Hoe interesant dat jullie heben geen probleem om waartaal te spreken, maar niet te horen!!!
Als ik gebaand bin, daan is het vreulijk voor mij. Tot straks!

Ag!
En hoe interesant dat je heb geen probleem om idiotie te spreekt, maar niet waarheid te horen.
Dat die je spreekt heel sputten is.

Alsof zeggen van vuiligheid in Nederlands, uitvoeringen het proper.
Debiel.

Tot ziens!

[106] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 06:10 AM • top

Yes, God the Father is indeed a Christian. Not in the sense of needing to be saved by Christ or in the sense that he himself worships Christ, but in establishing the Son of Man together with him as the exclusive focus of worship, power, glory, authority, and honor on earth and in heaven, God the Father has declared Christ to be the name above every other name, compare Dan 7:13-14 with Matthew 16:28-17:9. In that sense, in setting up Jesus Christ as the supreme name to be glorified and worshipped and setting him at his right hand, I would say that the Father is indeed a Christian.

[107] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-27-2007 at 06:24 AM • top

Matt,

Is He also Jewish?

[108] Posted by Dr. N. on 10-27-2007 at 06:38 AM • top

About 15 years ago, I had dinner with Archbishop Desmund Tutu. At the conclusion of our meal, Tutu gave a speech. He used the time to criticize former President Bush. According to Tutu, he had continually lobbied Bush for much tougher sanctions on South Africa as he believed it would bring about a quicker end of apartheid. Tutu said Bush said no because of Bush’s concern for the people’s suffering. Tutu told him that the people wanted to suffer. Bush never relented to Tutu’s demand. In the speech Tutu held Bush accountable for apartheid lasting longer in South Africa than it needed to. His hatred of George Bush Sr. was more than obvious as he believed he was among friends. For the most part he was and people thanked him for his speech.

I walked away from that dinner of $1000 a pop (Tutu took $54,000 with him back to South Africa) understanding that George Bush Sr. was a better Christian than the Archbishop. A godly man would never advocate more suffering on people to bring about a quicker political end. It was an expensive lesson but in the end well worth it.

[109] Posted by Mrs. Lawrence on 10-27-2007 at 06:39 AM • top

A Christian is one who looks to Jesus Christ as sole Lord and only Saviour. God is the Source of this revelation and gospel. To ask “Is God a Christian” is silly, a puerile question designed to amuse and delight non-Christians. It is useful only to demonstrate, as Matt pointed out early in the discussion, that Bp Tutu is not a Christian himself. For the life of me, I cannot grasp why some consider it so important to remain (or become) a part of the “Communion” Tutu belongs to. For myself, I rejoice NOT to be linked to him in any way shape or form.

[110] Posted by Laurence K Wells on 10-27-2007 at 06:56 AM • top

Yes Dr. N, Jesus is Jewish, and since Jesus is also God the Son, then we can say God has taken on human nature as a Jew.

[111] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-27-2007 at 07:05 AM • top

A godly man would never advocate more suffering on people to bring about a quicker political end. It was an expensive lesson but in the end well worth it.

Can’t say I agree with that.

Apartheid becomes reverse apartheid story: One of the guys here who runs the EMS (ambulance) service is a caucasian from SA. He was head of an IT department there. After apartheid ended, he was demoted (can’t have a white in charge of blacks). Of course, the new boss had no experience and chaos ensued. The white guy sent his family to the states while he tried make a go of it. When he was finally dismissed in his last job, that of a gardener, did he finally give up and emigrate, himself. The US has benefited greatly whilst SA has had their infrastructure decapitated.

What a disaster for SA. We have a friend whose daughter went to SA to be a missionary. The violence is unbelievable. One cannot stand in front of a window with the curtains drawn and have your shadow cast because people will randomly shoot at the window. Car jacking doesn’t raise an eyebrow.

[112] Posted by robroy on 10-27-2007 at 07:14 AM • top

I understand that rape is a huge problem in Johannesburg, as well.

[113] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 07:19 AM • top

robroy: I believe the “expense” Mrs. Lawrence refers to is the $1000 she paid to be told such nonsense.

“The people want to suffer,” the archbishop said, stuffing $54,000 in his wallet.

[114] Posted by James Manley on 10-27-2007 at 07:20 AM • top

I am surprised to find myself in the role of apologist for Desmond Tutu but reading his responses to Time Magazine last year discussing his prostate cancer and attitude to minorities and his wonderful sermon at Lancing College’s dedication of as stained glass window to Trevor Huddleston what comes across is his warmth, his humanity and his fire for evangelism for Christ.

His description of a saint as “someone who lets the light in” has stayed with me.

[115] Posted by Pageantmaster on 10-27-2007 at 07:50 AM • top

his fire for evangelism for Christ.

LOL!

He then asked, “Can anyone say to the Dalai Lama, ‘You are a good guy. What a shame you are not a Christian’?”

This must be the unique, and grandly failing, form of evangelism practiced by TEC in which attempts at actual conversion to Christ are considered to be in horribly bad taste, if not outright heresy…

[116] Posted by Nevin on 10-27-2007 at 08:32 AM • top

Well, he seems at the least to have had an off day.

[117] Posted by Ed the Roman on 10-27-2007 at 08:34 AM • top

I can’t believe it but it sounds like some of you are wishing apartheid had never ended? While the comments from Tutu’s speech above distress me, I have nothing but admiration for what he did for his country. Did he make it a promised land? No. Did he help end a terrible and unjust situation? Yes, indeed.

[118] Posted by oscewicee on 10-27-2007 at 08:35 AM • top

“Ag!
En hoe interesant dat je heb geen probleem om idiotie te spreekt, maar niet waarheid te horen.
Dat die je spreekt heel sputten is.

Alsof zeggen van vuiligheid in Nederlands, uitvoeringen het proper.
Debiel.

Tot ziens! “

My God.. with all YOUR mis-spellings in the language YOU end up by trying to tell me to write PROPERLY???? Where did YOU learn Dutch, OILDALE?

[119] Posted by Virg on 10-27-2007 at 09:03 AM • top

That’s double-Dutch

[120] Posted by Pageantmaster on 10-27-2007 at 09:09 AM • top

Ah, I see that he is back.

Not content with mocking us by deliberately slipping misspellings into one of his 8 or so languages, he now mocks the primitives for their accidental misspellings, as they can barely even handle the English language. Such flippant disregard is Deeply Wounding to an already Broken Spirit.

The Effexor and Prozac and Xanax have caused my Near Total Despair at the complete annihilative Rejection by our Very Best Progressive Commenter to be slightly lightened to a Dark Grey Despair . . . but I wonder if Greg could have read far enough up the thread to understand that The Most Sterling Representative of Progressivedom has Shatteringly Rejected Us? I fear that in his busyness he has not even discovered the Dreadful News.

At first I was relieved when Greg showed up. But he does not seem to grasp the implications of This Terrible Loss of Esteem That We Have Suffered!

Now, Virg, with all of his Vast Credibility, Sophistication, Knowledge, Elegant Ripostes and Verbal Acuity will be Spreading The Word amongst his doubtless awe-inspired Compatriots.

How will we ever Win The Favor—Long So Dearly Sought and anxiously scoured for—of all the Remaining Progressives in ECUSAdom when we cannot even win the favor of The Most Loving One There Is!!!!!?????

I mean . . .Greg is our webmaster and I have yet to see any ideas forthcoming to handle this Near Total Disaster!!!!

Where is our Leadership, to deal with this Crisis????

[121] Posted by Sarah on 10-27-2007 at 09:20 AM • top

Pageantmaster,

What you sensed in Tutu, namely

what comes across is his warmth, his humanity and his fire for evangelism for Christ

may very well be sincere and sincerely held. The one thing which I almost always noted in Tutu was what I have noted in the overwhelming majority of those who consider themselves progressives and a disturbingly large number of people who consider themselves conservatives, which is a pronounced tendency to believe that they are wholly and completely in the right, morally, on some particular issue coupled with two attitudes which might best be characterized as arrogant. The first of these attitudes is that the solution which has occurred to them is the <u>only</u> morally acceptable solution, and the second is that the ends justify the means.

Every time Tutu opened his mouth to discuss what ought to be done about the vile policies of apartheid (and they are just that, vile), his words and attitude communicated this sort of mindset. And he famously defended the sort of socialism that is a recipe for human want and misery. In this latter instance the best that can be said for this

greatest living Anglican

and church leader than whom there is none

other … of his moral stature

is that he apparently believed in the concept of equality for all his fellows, even if that equality meant want and misery for them.

One of the hallmarks of hearing someone who is displaying this sort of behavior is a very distinct sense that the speaker believes that anyone who does not agree with him in every particular, including his or her specific policy prescriptions for solving the problem, then one is on the other side of the issue. After all, the great socialist leaders (both National and International) from the early twentieth century through today—Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Mugabe, et al.—were all sincere in their beliefs that they understood what was right, just and moral. Unfortunately, sincerity is not the measure of morality, particularly in the socio-political arena. While I am not equating Tutu with them in any manner other than the very narrow sense that, in his certitude, he, like them, knew what was the morally right and necessary course. It is a great shame when a person who is an otherwise godly leader, falls into this trap. And it is an even greater sorrow for those who are (mis)led by such a one.

Blessings and kind regards,
Martial Artist

[122] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 10-27-2007 at 10:08 AM • top

Calvin College.
Back when I wanted to “get in touch with my roots.”

Of course, since I’m Frisian, and since American culture is myopic to all but its own culture, and since neither my job nor role as head of household requires it, it’s pretty irrelevant.

And yes, I know that my Dutch teacher would be ashamed. The klein beetje of retention I have now, wouldn’t even merit the B’s I had in her class. Wat yammer. :(

Fret not though - since knowledge of Dutch does not imply a knowledge of spiritual things, you yet remain een mebiel.

[123] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 10:14 AM • top

ag. debiel

[124] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 10:15 AM • top

By the way, Virg. Please don’t take your issues out on the Lord’s Name.

Thanks.

[125] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 10:32 AM • top

A question came to mind for Tutu: “What was God before He/She/It became an Evolutionist?”

[126] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 10-27-2007 at 10:36 AM • top

Martial Artist
Granted: Tutu is a child of his time and of his country. One thing that amazes me is the way that he and others have managed to rise above the anger and resentment - but some residue presumably remains. Had I walked a mile in his shoes I might have felt it hard to do. His truth and reconciliation commission had an extraordinary effect in South Africa and I don’t think one can lay her current lawlessness at his feet.

I have not submitted him to an ‘orthodoxy audit’ but what I have heard has impressed.

Greetings from PM

[127] Posted by Pageantmaster on 10-27-2007 at 10:43 AM • top

It’s all right with me if God is a Christian.

But if He’s Irish, then forget it.

[128] Posted by DaveW on 10-27-2007 at 10:47 AM • top

Isn’t he English Dave W

[129] Posted by Pageantmaster on 10-27-2007 at 10:49 AM • top

“ag. debiel “

Did you mean, “ach, deuvel”?

[130] Posted by Virg on 10-27-2007 at 12:14 PM • top

Dearest Sarah,
Despair not, my darling. Help is on the way. You don’t have to settle for TEC’s brightest and best at all. I have been branded a “devil” by one of YOUR brightest and best.
What a comfort to know that we will have Moot and others like him/her judging us on that great day!
Continue to know, meanwhile, that my admiration and respect for you knows know bounds.

[131] Posted by Virg on 10-27-2007 at 12:20 PM • top

No, I mean debiel. I understand why you may expect the other word, though.

http://www.freetranslation.com/

[132] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

We weren’t taught the word, ‘Ag,’ in class. The pronounciation though, is consistent with my Grandma’s gutteral ‘g’ and the Dutch gutteral ‘g’.

And I’m flattered that you think that I am amogst SF’s brightest and best. Though, I fear that perception is flawed, too.

[133] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 12:28 PM • top

I see. No wonder I couldn’t find that word in my Dutch dictionary.
How kind.

[134] Posted by Virg on 10-27-2007 at 12:29 PM • top

I have a confession to make. Maybe it will change the opinion some of you have formed of me, maybe not.
I think my participation in this forum consistently brings out the absolute worst in me. Even in a secular sense, I think to continue here would be unwise. In a Christian/religious sense my participation does not contribute to the love of Christ in my life, or any other graces we are expected to cultivate.
I have blogged things here that were motivated by my own anger and frustration at some of you. For that I am deeply sorry. I have blogged things I didn’t think I was capable of, but obviously I have a lot of carnality to deal with yet.
How you respond to this final posting does not matter to me, as I am moving on.
May God have mercy on us all.

[135] Posted by Virg on 10-27-2007 at 12:39 PM • top

RE: “Continue to know, meanwhile, that my admiration and respect for you knows know bounds.”

Further wounding sarcasm, similar to kicking small kittens by the side of the road.

And now, I note that he has inserted the homophone “know” for “no” as a further cavalier insult. Not content with casually strewing misspellings throughout his demonstrated mastery of Dutch as a sign of his Manifest Superiority, he has now thrown in a homophone, as a sign of his Total and Complete Disrespect.

Virg’s intellect—towering and sophisticated and Very Loving as it is—is simply too overpowering to those of us who are not intelligent enough to, for instance, counter his overwhelmingly rational and consistently principled and Very Loving observations over the weeks and months of his gracing our blog with his Loving Presence. But I cannot understand why he should use it as he has on this thread to so cruelly slight small kittens and other primitives by the side of the road [to slightly mix metaphors.] Is this not similar to using a bazooka [or some such violent and patriarchal weapon] to blow away an ant?

I wonder if Greg is even awake yet to notice the slaughter on this thread—the slaughter of small kittens and primitive conservatives, and the utter degradation of this small blog by Virg’s slights and deserved insults.

Does he have a plan? A plan to counter the reputation of this blog which has now sunk to the depths, so I am reliably informed, amongst Progressive Episcopalians, after this man has dissed us? I fear not. What steps will our leader take to counter the terrible public relations disaster that we have been experiencing over the past dreadful 24 hours? He appears oblivious.

My therapist rang me today again—the one for one of my 12-steps, not one of the psychiatrists—and has added Vitamin D to my regimen, along with some length stints in the sun. I am off now to buy 24 sunlamps for the rooms in my house.

Should I have the energy, I will install them. It is doubtful that I will have further energy save to stagger to my bed and try to close my fevered eyes to snatch some brief interludes of sleep, broken unfortunately by the racking torture of the past day.

“Bury My Heart At Wounded Blog.”

Goodbye. Perhaps forever.

[136] Posted by Sarah on 10-27-2007 at 12:58 PM • top

Well, Virg, I haven’t responded to any of your other posts since I have no desire to become one of your sparring partners (that, plus I don’t understand a word of Dutch—Moot covers all that stuff) but your last post tempts me to say, don’t be too hard on yourself.

Much of the time (too much, maybe) Stand Firm could also qualify as the “Anglicans Behaving Badly” blog. There’s no racy video to go with it (well, sometimes we have pictures) but the ride gets a little wild at times.

We’re here for different reasons. Some of us are just exploring our wounded places and we want everyone else to help us find them. The commenatrix wants to find them too, so she can whack them with a hammer.

Then there are those of us who are refugees from anger management classes or primal scream therapy. (OK, not refugees—we got kicked out.) This is sort of the next best thing, but without medication—which makes it rough.

Many are here to reform and realign the Anglican Communion, and they’re going to do it or bust a gut. I have no idea what any of that’s about, but I’m taking notes.

You’ve got Low Church, High Church, Broad Church, Wide Church, No Church, Whatever Church. Yep, the real rainbow of inclusivity is actually over here, whether Matt Kennedy likes it or not.

Virg, I don’t think anybody’s mad at you and there’s always room for one more. You’ve apologized for whatever bad behavior you’ve engaged in, now let it go. Live into the carnality a bit and stick around.

Besides, if you go Sarah Hey will miss you too much. I can already tell there’s something going on there. It’s like magic in the air! She doesn’t get that way over just anybody. All dewy-eyed and dolphin-like, but do be careful. If it turns out you’re less than the man she hopes you are, she will eat your liver on a stick!

Your move, Virg.

[137] Posted by episcopalienated on 10-27-2007 at 01:23 PM • top

If it turns out you’re less than the man she hopes you are, she will eat your liver on a stick!

I’d give a dollar to see that…

[138] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-27-2007 at 02:56 PM • top

RAISE…. Two Dollars

[139] Posted by DaveB in VT on 10-27-2007 at 03:43 PM • top

And what has ++Tutu done/said even more recently?

http://guidetotheperplexed.blogspot.com/2007/10/26-october-2007-cult-of-israel-hatred.html

[140] Posted by Judith L on 10-27-2007 at 04:50 PM • top

“She doesn’t get that way over just anybody. All dewy-eyed and dolphin-like, ”

Are you sure “dewy-eyed” isn’t just one of the side-effects of all that anti-depressant medication?

[141] Posted by Cathy_Lou on 10-27-2007 at 06:40 PM • top

Virg,

What do you call one Dutchman?
- Piety.

What do you call two Dutchmen?
- Religion.

What do you call three Dutchmen?
- Afscheiding (aka, schism).

Who invented copper wire?
A couple of Dutchmen fighting over a penny.

How do you murder a Dutchman?
You throw a nickel onto the freeway.

Why is it wise to take two Dutchmen fishing with you, rather than only one?
Because if you take only one, he’ll drink all of your beer.

And the moral of all this is, even though Holland has produced many fine theologians (I beg the indulgence of my Catholic brethren), saying something in Dutch doesn’t infuse it with theological astuteness.

The other moral is, believe it or not, I too wish you would stick around.

Finally, your last post tells me that the word I brought in, and the one you brought in, don’t apply. Please accept my apology.

[142] Posted by Moot on 10-27-2007 at 07:52 PM • top

Pageantmaster,

I don’t know enough about his more recent activities and public statements to express an opinion about any responsibility he might have for the lawlessness which afflicts the RSA, and I certainly did not mean to imply that he might have some. However, given the distortions inherent in the underlying premises of socialism, it would not be necessarily improbable to examine that question. After all, if life really were a zero sum game, it would be perfectly understandable that the have-nots would resent the unjust situation of a disproportionate distribution of the resources of the society. Hence, if one is seduced into incorrectly seeing life as a zero sum game, then the seducer bears some responsibility for the consequences.

Nevertheless, I do agree with your observation that his rising above “the anger and resentment” is a testimony to the strength of his faith.

Greetings, blessings and best regards,
Martial Artist

[143] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 10-27-2007 at 09:17 PM • top

The end is near, judgment day must be just around tht corner. What else can we say. Virg spells as bad as I do and has now gone over to the charismatics and is speaking in tongues. We even have an African bishop lecturing us Americans on how we should believe and act. What elsc could happen?—-the Spanish inquisition? Wow!

[144] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 10-27-2007 at 10:03 PM • top

Cathy_Lou:

Are you sure “dewy-eyed” isn’t just one of the side-effects of all that anti-depressant medication?

Well, it certainly leaves me that way. And getting past charcoal grey can take an awful lot of medication management.

But with reference to Ms. Hey, perhaps I should have said “doe-eyed” instead.

I think she lives outdoors anyway.

Closer to Bambi.

[145] Posted by episcopalienated on 10-27-2007 at 10:13 PM • top

Thank you pageantmaster for the link to the sermon re Trevor Huddleston. I loved this:

the light he threw on the dank gloom of South Africa’s racism declared that each person is of infinite worth, because each is created in the image of God, each is a God-carrier, a tabernacle, a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit, someone not just to be respected, but really someone to be revered, someone before whom we out to genuflect as we do in front of the reserved Sacrament.

Well, maybe a little over the top at the end there, but he had me for most of it. (I don’t genuflect in front of the reserved Sacrament, either.)
And Sarah, please know my errors in typing are merely that and not implied insults. It was PDF so I had to re-type it and I am not at your level of language skills.

[146] Posted by Deja Vu on 10-27-2007 at 11:11 PM • top

Sarah, this is scary. You are sounding far too much like Elizabeth Kaeton. Something must be done. Where’s Christopher Johnson when you need him?

[147] Posted by Happy Clappy Elizabethan on 10-27-2007 at 11:12 PM • top

A quote re tolerance, inclusiveness:

Men have often branded the Church as intolerant, when she was only faithful. They have stigmatized her as relentless, when she was only true to her mission; because she condemned the book which breathed the venom of infidelity, they called her an enemy of letters; when she repudiated the theory which was in germ a heresy, they styled her the foe of science; because she anathematized a principle which led to revolution and anarchy, they named her the antagonist of civilization. Yet she has suffered everything in promoting the spiritual and temporal well-being of the race. She has been a martyr to her mission and her duty.

To the world the Church is an intolerant, bigoted and uncompromising institution, her light is darkness, her zeal is ambition, her love is cruelty and she deserves not a place among men. When they cry out against her intolerance, they hardly know the meaning of their clamor. In one way, their reproach is her glory. Yes, she is intolerant, for there are things she will not abide. She will not tolerate error, atheism or infidelity, nor any of the views which aim at the destruction of all religion, all morality and all civilization. The truths of God she must uphold. The sacred rights of men she will declare and fight for.

The Church believes in liberty, but she is intolerant of license. She believes in brotherly love, but not in communism. She believes that before God all men are equal, but she respects the condition in which the race finds itself. She will stand up for all rightful possessions, but will not brook injustice, oppression and slavery. Poor and rich are alike to her, but woe to the capitalist who defrauds the laborer of his wages, to the laboring man who rises up in unjust violence against his employer.

The intolerance of the Church is not a badge of shame, but a crown of glory. So-called Christian countries today are not suffering from intolerance, but from tolerance, for they tolerate both right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. The slogan that “the modern world needs a religion without dogmas,” can only mean a religion without truth or one which would be backboneless, since dogmas are but unchangeable truths.—FATHER DESMOND MURRAY, O. P., in A Saint of the Week, 1955
http://jerome2007.tripod.com/quotations_catholic.htm

[148] Posted by Theodora on 10-28-2007 at 07:19 AM • top

When he gets to heaven, Bishop Tutu can take the matter up with Jesus. He does believe in heaven, doesn’t he?

[149] Posted by Alice Linsley on 10-28-2007 at 03:36 PM • top

Virg,
您可憐
Warmest regards,
JimmyMac

[150] Posted by JimmyMac on 10-29-2007 at 11:01 AM • top

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