Breaking: +Iker Receives Threat Letter from Schori

Here we go again.

Can someone point me to a source on the web where one can read the canons and constitution of TEC for oneself?  It seems strange that a relationship that is entered in to by consent of the parties cannot also be terminated when one party withdraws consent, especially where the other party is in complete breach of the prior agreement.

Go to the national church site and clink on the directory from A-Z (top right corner) and then look up canons and constitution in the “c”, click on that and download or read them. Did it last week.

http://www.episcopalchurch.org

http://www.episcopalarchives.org/e-archives/canons/CandC_FINAL_11.29.2006.pdf

It grieves me that any bishop of this Church would seek to lead any of its members out of it.

Well, exactly. I think that’s Iker’s feeling on the matter, too.

Indeed. Let the separation begin! It’s just a shame that Ft. Worth is going to have to wait until next year.

I think Schori should entertain a new acronym for the 2009 GC. Forget TEC, welcome the CLUB—Convocation of Liberal Unitarian Believers. It would work so well for them! Under that umbrella, they could have the Gay CLUB, the Feminist CLUB, the Questioning CLUB, the possibilities are endless! It’s especially important that they remove “episcopal” from its name because of the way true shepherds are treated.

“I call upon you to recede from this direction ...”

Not to be picky, but recede strikes me as a strange word to use (or maybe it’s just not a word I often use, except in reference to hairlines).  I noticed she used the same word in the letter to +Duncan and thought it was strange then.  At that time, I wondered if it had some particular legal meaning? 

Hmmm… quickly re-reading the +Duncan letter, looks like it’s basically the same letter to +Iker.

Well, exactly. I think that’s Iker’s feeling on the matter, too.

Yep, that’s mine as well.

What I really hate is the way people get run out of TEC.

Cathy-Lou,

Recycling correspondence is a time-honored Episcopal tradition.

Gee, I would have thought she would at least customize these letters a bit more.  Its a form letter written by her lawyer.  I wonder how many copies she made?  I’m sure there were 4, but I wonder if there might be 20? 25? 30?  Note, that she could have sent them all at once, but for PR purposes is sending them one at a time so she gets more coverage in the NYT. 
Now, wouldn’t it be really funny if one were sent to +Rowan by mistake?

there she stands.  she can do no other!

Talithajd,

Your ponit about consenting parties is a good one, especially in light of ABC’s recent letter, or at least the words of that letter.  Let’s hope +Iker et al. have better luck with that logic, though, in this instance than the State of South Carolina and others had when they brought up the issue in another context in 1861. 

Seriously, I can’t imagine this letter will get more than a few smiles in Ft. Worth. 

Jim in Chicago

Dear Katie-
Perhaps you and +Jack can meet in that field where there is no right or wrong that the previous primate was fond of.
Hugs and kisses,
FW

“recede from this action”,  hey, she’s just talking “tidaly”..
A person cannot “recede”, only tides and liquid levels, and things. LOL
Grannie G

It’s not uncharacteristic of the KJS to use an odd turn of phrase.  Remember before Dar when she expressed the sentiment of looking forward to engaging with the human beings there. Would be worth seeing if “recede” appears anywhere in the canons… The whole letter appears sort of slap-dash, some odd grammar (use of “however,” near the end), hoping a situation can be reconciled (aren’t two or more partoes reconciled, not a situation?). But, given the context, I imagine nothing in it is accidental or spontaneious.

Well at least its not ” the Presiding Bishop is reaching out with open arms once more to those bishops contemplating realignments for their dioceses ”  this time….

The Vatican may agree to receive 400,000 disgruntled Irish Anglicans.  Doubtless, among these will be some fine Anglican bishops.  Remember Bishop Steenson?  Listen to what he said: “My conscience is deeply troubled because I sense that the obligations of my ministry in the Episcopal Church may lead me to a place apart from scripture and tradition. I am concerned that if I do not listen to and act in accordance with conscience now, it will become harder and harder to hear God’s voice.”

Bishop Iker should be heeded also. Wherever they lead, follow such godly leaders out of TEC.  If you don’t go, you may be run out, but then it is an honor to be run out of TEC.  There is life after TEC and it is better than imagined.  God is good!

It grieves me that a Presiding Bishop of TEC would write such a letter to a fellow bishop who is simply trying to stay faithful to his ordination vows and remain faithful to the faith once delivered to the saints.  I would not want to be anywhere near this lady when she answers to God regarding her role as sheperd of the sheep.

Thank you KJS for helping our cause here in Fort Worth.  You have just made the case for separation from TEC.

All I can say is bring it.

From the Webster’s:(episcospeak)
Accede (as in accession to the canons and constitution): To become a party to as in an agreement; to give approval

Concede(“Give me what I want or else”): to grant as a right or priviledge; to give consent as true or valid; to give consent reluctantly

Recede(“surrender you swine” : To withdraw or back away. Synonym: to retreat or retract

Let’s hope copies of these letters are being given to all the Primates and the Archbishop of Canterbury.  If he doesn’t see the sickness in this and act to kick TEC out of the Communion,  then he deserves to lose most of the Anglican Communion by tomorrow night at the latest.

It grieves and sickens the faithful everywhere that a PB would write such a threatening letter. This is not compassion, it is not compromise, it is is not even Christian in its tone.  The truth is that the Episcopal Church has violated its own canons and constitution, not this diocese, and it is the PB who is leading the Episcopal Church out of the Anglican Communion, not +Iker.

If she just sends +Iker the same letter she sent +Duncan, maybe +Iker should just send her the same letter +Duncan sent her.

It’s another sequel in the series:

Attack of the (edited) Lady

I call upon you to recede from this direction and to lead your diocese on a new course that recognizes the interdependent and hierarchical relationship between the national Church and its dioceses and parishes. That relationship is at the heart of our mission, as expressed in our polity.

The heart of TEC’s mission is certainly not a relationship with Jesus, as expressed in the Bible.

Annie, TEC’s mission is “a lesbian at every altar.”

It is time for a complete separation from ECUSA.  The sooner the better.  Perhaps Pittsburgh, Ft. Worth, etc can move their conventions to early January (like what is happening with the primaries) and get the necessary votes in to separate.  Enough is enough.  Thanks be to God for the offer of refuge from Venables.  Let’s now get on with it.

I’m sure that this letter will be greeted with chuckles and snickers along with a knowing smile.

Recede? The tide? Its the echo of Dover Beach in 1867. Silly squid, the tide goes out, and then the tide comes in again, covering that darkling plain with the sea of faith once more.

The Sea of Faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth’s shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the world.

Ah, love, let us be true
To one another! for the world, which seems
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
Matthew Arnold

“All these efforts, in my view, display a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between The Episcopal Church and its dioceses.” 

Remind me again what the +ABC said about the diocease (sic) being the instrment of authority in the AG.

Why doesn’t Jack just put on rainbow-patterned vestments and recede on all the way down the block in the next Dallas/Ft Worth gay parade? Yeah, and he should wear leather chaps as well. Underneath, but clearly visible to his leather congregants.

I’m sure that should make Ms. Dr. (edited)  happy.

I suppose there’ll be a return to pilgrimages of flagellants to show solidarity with our BDSM brethren.

“Vanity of vanities”. At 815, all is vanity.

Heh.  Since Schori “recycled” this letter to Iker, maybe Iker should just recycle Bob Duncan’s reply to her.  That would be pretty hysterical!

It is amazing how many choose the Sea of Faith over the Darkling Plain.

Well all I have to say is I wish all the faithful remaining in TEC ‘All the Lord’s Blessings’. I as Bp. Steenson have finally realized that there truly is no hope for TEC. It is with great sadness (and great joy for renewed communion) that I will be moving to the Roman Church and leaving 5 generations of my American heritage behind (yes my family dates back to COE on the NA continent). I just think that it is time to turn my endeavors to the positive aspects of the Lord’s work in an environment that is more conducive to fellowship.

I was at that first meeting in Dallas (I signed up in the 1st week when it was going to be in Plano) where we came together to try and rescue TEC. I left with a determination that was like none that I had ever had before in my walk with Christ. I consider the last 7+ years a valiant attempt at evangelization. I believe I have done all that was in my power to do and I feel that this is one of those tests that is presented upon your walk to test your resolve and good judgment. 

I am an Engineer & Computer Geek by education, but look for my upcoming book (2009) on the demise of Christianity in America (A TEC Perspective), it should be an interesting read!

JHGraves wrote:

Remind me again what the +ABC said about the diocease (sic) being the instrment of authority in the AG.

It’s on that note that I state that I’m waiting “patiently” for RW to make some sort of statement about what KJS has just done with these 2 letters, considering his own letter to Bishop Howe. I pray he has enough integrity to give us that much. His silence is deafening at this point.

Mugsie

st. anonymous says:

Heh.  Since Schori “recycled” this letter to Iker, maybe Iker should just recycle Bob Duncan’s reply to her.  That would be pretty hysterical!

Actually, pretty inspiring. Some words, in context, have the same effect, over and over.
You mean, like the Bible?
Hmmmm .... at least for some of us, I guess.

Still my favorite line: “I would remind you of my open offer of an Episcopal Visitor if you wish to receive pastoral care from another bishop.”

Poor Bishop Iker . . . asks for an alternate Primate and instead he gets “pastoral care” from “another bishop.”

Maybe the PB could also offer Bishop Iker the 12 Episcopal Therapists that I offered Greg.

This is like a Rhino being bit on the butt by a gnat. I will bet you ....bhaa ...the good Bishop ......mwahahaha ...... is literally TREMBLING in his sanctuary slippers! .......Bwahahahahahahahahahaahah!

I think I’ll stand with Jack.

Anglican Powderkeg+

I can’t help but feel a little like the Isrealites…
“Yet bold and brave he stood
Salvation in his hand
Go blow them ram horns Joshua cried
‘Cause the devil can’t do you no harm

Joshua fought the battle of Jericho
Jericho Jericho
Joshua fought the battle of Jericho
And the walls come tumbling down

Up to the walls of Jericho
He marched with spear in hand
Go blow them ram horns, Joshua cried
‘Cause the battle is in my hands

Then the lamb ram sheep horns began to blow
The trumpets began to sound
Old Joshua shouted glory
And the walls came tumblin’ down

God knows that
Joshua fought the battle of Jericho
Jericho Jericho
Joshua fought the battle of Jericho
And the walls come tumbling down

Down, down, down, down, down
Tumblin’ down”

Heh.  Since Schori “recycled” this letter to Iker, maybe Iker should just recycle Bob Duncan’s reply to her.  That would be pretty hysterical!

that would be hysterical.  In any case, I’ll be interested in his response.

It grieves me that any bishop of this Church would seek to lead any of its members out of it.

This woman is totally clueless about leadership.

I find the misogynitic attacks on women in power found in this string and others on Stand Firm very disturbing. Our Presiding Bishop is not “Katie” and she is not “(edited) Lady.” That kind of lack of respect for the office if not for the woman reflects poorly on Stand Firm, not on Katharine Jefferts Schori.
She has gone into dioceses where the majority of clergy and bishop have opposed her—and she has addressed each and every concern with grace and sincerity. She has asked that charges against her relate to what she has said and done without the spin or the distortions that have been attached. Thus, her stance on John 14.6 is consonant with traditional Roman Catholic theology as well as our own theology over the centuries.
Bishop Iker knows what the rules are in the Episcopal Church about property. ++KJS is not “threatening” him, she is informing him that there are consequences for his continuing breaking of canon law. Her concerns regarding bishops Duncan and Iker are similar, as their posturing and flauting canonical laws are similar—so what is the big deal about common language, unless it is one more opportunity to slam a woman. Not cool.

++Rabshakeh blusters and threatens, and then she comes up with this:

It grieves me that any bishop of this Church would seek to lead any of its members out of it.

It is “leaders” like her who have precipitated the departure of tens of thousands of Christians out of the Episcopal Church.  It is disingenuous of her to say that it grieves her, when she and her allies have caused the departures.

ATTENTION PLEASE: By the way all of you on Stand Frim, we started a diocese wide novena tonight. If you want to join us, go to http://www.fwepiscopal.org
and look for the 25th Convention sign in the middle of the page and click onto the cross. We need you all to join us in this novena. We do nothing without prayer and discernment from our Lord.

caroln, I think of Jericho too, but the Veggie Tales version, where the people of Jericho are watching the Israelites and singing:

Keep walking, but you won’t knock down our wall.
Keep walking. But she isn’t gonna to fall!
It’s plain to see, your brains are very small..
To think walking, will be knocking down our wall.

TBWSantaFe, Schori is not being criticized for her gender.  She is being criticized for her lack of leadership.  Bishops Bruno and Chane, former PB Griswold, and the Archbishop of Canterbury have also come under fire in this forum.  Would you say we have an anti-male bias?!

Deja Vu,
Sounds right!  I’ll have to check it out.

Yeah, they think our brains are small. But we keep walking.

She has gone into dioceses where the majority of clergy and bishop have opposed her…

Check off another item on the sorority scavenger hunt.

In the interest of economy, KJS is now using form letters, it appears.

TBWSantaFe,
Not misogynistic. Just positively sure the delusion of thinking she is a priest and bishop has led her not only to threaten Godly men, but has made her delusional concerning any sort of moral high ground she thinks she and her fellow rewriters of Holy Scripture might hold. They have none.
Anglican Powderkeg+

A look back at Griswolds statement on the diocese as controlling itself
From: The Living Church
Dennis Canon Diocesan Issue, Presiding Bishop Says
5/15/2006
Virtually all legal disputes over the ownership of parish property are internal diocesan matters and there is nothing in the so-called Dennis Canon that prevents a diocesan bishop from reaching an amicable settlement with a congregation that wants to leave the Episcopal Church and retain its building, according to Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold, who led separate question-and-answer forums for clergy and laity in the Diocese of Western Louisiana May 11 at St. James’ Church, Alexandria.

“Basically he said it was up to the individual diocese,” said the Rt. Rev. D. Bruce MacPherson, Bishop of Western Louisiana. “It [the Dennis Canon] provides room for the bishop, standing committee and the local congregations to decide what they think is best. It leaves room for conversation.”

Bishop Griswold told the Western Louisiana clergy gathering that bishops and other diocesan leaders are primarily responsible for deciding how to respond to disputes over property ownership, and that there have been instances in which such disputes have been resolved amicably. The Episcopal Church Center in New York City becomes involved in a legal dispute only after it has been invited by the diocese, Bishop Griswold said.

During the morning session with the clergy, the Rev. Paul Martin, assistant at St. Paul’s, Shreveport, asked Bishop Griswold the question about the Dennis Canon. Fr. Martin said there was several seconds of silence after Bishop Griswold finished giving his answer. Bishop Griswold responded affirmatively when asked a second time if the Dennis Canon is a diocesan issue.

“I told him that there was currently a lot of acrimony in the Church and I asked him if he would support repeal of the Dennis Canon,” Fr. Martin told The Living Church when asked to repeat the question he had asked.

An aide to Bishop Griswold declined to elaborate on the Presiding Bishop’s response when questioned by a reporter during the meeting.

Bishop Katharine is doing nothing more than reminding Bishop Jack what the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church require of bishops, priests, deacons and dioceses.  Ordination requires an agreement to uphold the Constitution and Canons.  Becoming a diocese of The Episcopal Church requires the same - and Fort Worth is a new enough diocese to have had that made very clear to them at the time they were created as a diocese.  This should not be a surprise to anyone.  Nor is it a threat.  It is a statement of the facts and a statement of the consequences if the Constitution and Canons are not followed.

As an aside, isn’t it a little bit childish and immature to attach all sorts of not-very-cutsie nicknames to the Presiding Bishop and others?  I would have thought that most on this list would have more manners, more couth and more intelligence than to resort to such. 

Bruce Garner,
Member, Executive Council
Communicant, All Saints’ Parish, Diocese of Atlanta

Ah!!! The Seer of Santa Fe (TBWSanta Fe)sallies forth!  Any one have any spare windmills needing attacking? I do appreciate his gallant leaping to the defence of the fair damsel Mrs. Schori. Surely, the most unsympathetic character in Christendom does need the help of our Parfait Gentle Knight TBW! That he has taken on an impossible task in defence of the Presiding Oceanographer is to his great credit. I can’t imagine anyone else attempting such a hopeless exercise.
For anyone unfamiliar with TBW and his works, he is well known for his Clown Eucharists and unrelenting machinations against +Iker and +Steenson. This is the dude that imported Bonnie Anderson to sow discord and pain along the Texas New Mexico border Dioceses.  One thing about ole Tom: its about the real estate. Always, it’s about the real estate. Anyone notice his spirited defence of the indefencable PB suddenly shifted to “Bishop Iker knows what the rules are in the Episcopal Church about property.” Tom wants the buildings folks, and the trust funds, and the cd’s, and the checking accounts, and the crayons in the Sunday School, and the prayer books, and the case of toilet paper, and the children’s drawings about “Jesus loves me this I know” on the coffee room walls, and the coffee and the filters and…...and…....and…...... Fill in the blanks.

Like I’ve said before. When you smoke out ole Tom to make a comment, you know we are making headway.

Nice to hear from ya Tom.

What is childish and immature is believing you are acting for God’s people when you reject His Word.
Anglican Powderkeg+

So, Bruce Garner, would you also use words like “childish and immature” with regard to TBWSanta Fe (aka Tom) and his Clown Eucharists? Which seems more of a desecration of the Holy to you, sir?

Does anyone know how to send these 2 nasty letters to the ABC?  ++Rowan needs to know that +Katie’s got her knickers in a knot.

Aw, c’mon, teddy mak, don’t you know the love and respect that he and Bruce and the rest of the Listserv mob extend to us…

Respect?  Please.  Did Bishop Iker see this before it was splashed all over the Episcopal Church web site?  If Mrs. Schori wants to tell Bishops Duncan or Iker these things, she can say them privately without this juvenile grandstanding.

A)  I do not reject the word of God.  I read it daily and pray on it daily.  And what I find is a lot more loving Creator than most on this list seem to have found. 

B)  TWB has found a way to reach people with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Diferent ways are needed to reach different folks.  Let us not forget that Jesus was rather innovative in His ministry as well. 

C)  I believe you can reach ++Rowan at Lambeth Palace.  I’m not aware of his email address….he may no have one.

Bruce Garner

PS - Note that I sign my name, my real name, my given name, my Christian name to my posts.  I have enough strength of conviction to own what I believe and write.  Apparently others prefer to hide behind pseudo whatevers.  But I’ve raised that issue here before only to have it fall on closed ears.

The point that some I trying to make, I think, is that when we of the orthodox camp resort to calling the Presiding Bishop childish names, especially revolving around her former professional life, it is unseemly.  Katharine is an intelligent, articulate woman, and we ought to respect her.  I couldn’t disagree more with her theology, or perhaps even her ordination and consecration—but let’s stop the name calling, please.  If we can’t make our point without jeering references to “Dr. (edited)”...come on, friends, we can do better.

I really wonder what she could accomplish if she would try to resolve the problem instead of prosecuting it…of course, that requires her to understand the problem in the first place!

Is it just me or does this letter bare the same exact resemblance to the one she sent to Bishop Duncan? I think it is, which means she must have ait ready to print out after she makes just one correction…..the name to whom it is being cannon balled upon!

I’m sure she is anxiously waiting for her next one to go out….
“Oh! David…David Booth Beers….can I send out another one yet? Yoowho! David…I really wouldlike to send another one….can I”

TBWSanteFe and other revisionists,
You throw around the word misogynist much too freely.  You definitely label yourself as a member of the revisonistas with just your language.  The commenters here on SF are both men and women with equal dislike of Ms. Schori’s views and goals.  That my Bishop has been attacked by her riles me. And I don’t think much of the Episcopal Anglo-Pagan Heretical Church that she is trying to create.  Aahh, that vent felt good.  I think I had better go off and pray about this and ask for forgiveness for some of the thoughts I am having.

BillB

Why is a Clown Eucharist acceptable while these jokes about a mere mortal are “childish” and “unseemly”?

“That kind of lack of respect for the office if not for the woman”  May I remind you that love is freely given, respect is earned?  Perhaps Ms. Schori could start doing something to earn some respect.  Also, as a female, I can assure you were there any misogyny displayed on this site, first I would speak to it and second, I would VAMOOSE.  I am often confused by people who have to refute truth with baseless accusations to twist the essence of the conversation.  Lastly, does anyone remember that I live in a diocese where the bishop is engaging in an ongoing canonical violation (non-celibacy) and not only is Hurricane Kate not addressing the issue with him, she exhorts and exhalts him for his violations.  Why has she not asked him to RECEDE from Mark Andrew???  Lastly what’s with her concern about bishops leading people out of TEC when she has many more bishops leading people ASTRAY????  Seems a much more serious offense to simple old me.

In this thread of “misogynitic attacks” I count nine distictly female names (note, those are only the identifiable ones). How wonderful for the big brave Bruce Garner not to “hide behind pseudo whatevers” but some of us are in hostile dioceses and don’t have the power Bruce Garner has, and some of those who “hide behind pseudo whatevers” are likely women too. And some of them read the garbage on the Listserv too.

Bruce Garner and TBWSanta Fe,
The (deleted) references are apropos when they are targeted to the issue of having a backbone and standing firm in faith.
Last week we saw a reappraiser blog go wild over the idea that the Stand Firm website name refers to male erectile dysfunction. The reappraiser seemed to have no clue that this website name is about standing firm in faith and carries for many the biblical references and church history using that metaphor.
Why weren’t you leaving comments on that site in defense of the biblical reference?
It would seem you are defenders of persons and positions but not of the Holy Eucharist or the Holy Bible.

HI, Bruce, glad to see you haven’t died in the global warming of Atlanta.  I don’t believe the PB has any powers to do what she claims to be doing.  PB Grizwold didn’t think so, did he?  But it is nice to know that some members of the Executive Committee read here at StandFirm.  At least, when you are NOT spending time with Covenant evaluations and the RCRC stuff.

THE diocese is the basic unit of the church says the PB of E aka ABC.  And we all have heard umpteenth times that his recognition is the ONLY cause of the AC since it suited y’all’s purposes.  Now it is time to live by the sword and die by the sword of your choices and committments and desires and intentions.  So, according to the PBness Griswold and the ABCness Williams, the bishop is where it’s at, and, as I recall, I heard that about New Hampshire, too.

May you get the rain you need.

no longer NH Episcopalian,
You go girl!!! I’ll ditto your post and stand beside you all the way…..I wish there were some bishops and priests and lay people out there that would bring her up on presentment charges….then maybe we wouldn’t have to go through all this ugliness. Seems to me the answer woould be to ger rid of the core problem….The Presiding Bishop and her abandonment of the Canons & Constitutions and the Faith once delivered.

OT reminder to rise above the tactics of our enemies:

My son’s Godfather lives in Austin. His is politically liberal and Biblically orthodox. About a year ago he and came to an agreement: If I would refer to the apostate (edited) in New York as “Her Grace, the Presiding Bishop”, he would refer to the clueless (edited) in Washington as “The President of the United States”.

My point: Let us give the lady the minimum level of respect due her office regardless of our she treats us. It will not be long before this trial is over. I know that God will rise up Bishops and lay leaders to guide us home.

Hi Bruce,
Some of us on this list have families in countries that are hostile to Christians and the Gospel.  So using our full name could endanger our lives.

Peace,
Josip

Shalom!
XOXOX
Our Lady of Litigation

Mr. Garner. What you see is the result of many of us working through grief brought on by the “progressive” actions of TEC. Just be patient, since we have given you the inclusion and welcome that led to the church you have today. In time we will find ways to resolve our grief and tension within the context of the worldwide Anglican Communion.

Thank you for your concern.

Deja - I didn’t know about the reappraiser “stuff” of last week, so at the risk of offending some (which I sincerely hope I don’t) has anybody ever thought of the fact that VGR is just ViaGRa without the vowels??? That’s been my little nickname for him for sometime.

One thing to remember on the legal front—that based on how diocesan assets are held in the Diocese of Fort Worth, there’s basically no way for 815 to get at them. This letter, and some court action, is probably about as far as TGCC can get before it “recede"s.

Bishop Howe’s concern in the Pittsburgh case, seen through this threat, shows the futility of those who think they can influenceTEC in any constructive way by staying. Loyal opposition has always legitimized that which it opposed.

Michael,
Do you think the reappraiser disrespect for +Akinola is racism? Do you post comments on reappraiser blogs chastising them for racism?

Since Schori “recycled” this letter to Iker, maybe Iker should just recycle Bob Duncan’s reply to her.  That would be pretty hysterical!

I vote for no response at all from +Iker.  It’s going to be difficult to top +Duncan’s reply for one thing, and dignifying that profoundly false and un-Christian tripe from 815 with any response at all is really below such men.

Hopefully, the letter has already been filed in the appropriate receptacle.

michael cudney,
You are clueless and are making assumptions you have no factual bases for and I am asking you nicely to back off and understand that what Josip and others have stated here are factually true…. as I am such a person in one of those positions.
You are being offensive. If you have something of substance to add to this thread on its topic please do so, otherwise I again ask nicely to back off.

I agree with Jason, Tom and Bruce.  Whatever we think of +JKS, it behooves us to be more circumspect in our use of labels and terms.  There is enough meat in the post to respond to and whatever we might think of an individual, it is fair to criticize his/her/their behaviour, qualifications, theology, actions without ad hominem attacks.
Good idea to read the statement below this box.  We should be above name calling.  Other liberal blogs or the largely liberal bias on the HoB/D listserv may may be excessively crude at times but I think we should show the standard shown below.
On another note I’ve seen lists of primates of the GS minimized to about 8 or 9 ‘neo-conservative’ primates.  To those we may add
++Venables and hopefully ++Gomez.  Those two are not primates liberals hoped with be counted with other GS primates.  In particular, ++Venables has surged to the forfront in recent days.  I doubt that potential loss of property will deter these diocese from leaving ECUSA although having strong claim is likely to end in response to 815 and +KJS’ threats which are threats and not informative letter regardless of Bruce may claims that they are not.
Anglican ‘broadness’ was never intended to go beyond the parameters of the 39 articles and the traditions of the the faith given to us by Jesus, the Holy Sprit, the authority of the Holy Scriptures and the traditions of 2,000 years of Chritian thought and belief.  That is the fundamental source of the crisis and division between the orthodox and the revisionist camps within the communion but primarily found in ECUSA, large elements of the CofE, and some others.

Bill Channon

Bruce and Tom:

Why are you even coming around here?  Moreover, Bruce, the rules of the HOBD listserv don’t apply here.  This is not your forum, and you have no cause to attempt to dictate how things work here.

Bruce, you have made your own misogynistic flubs on the HOBD listserv.  When I read them, I thought them humorous, but the listserv didn’t.  Please don’t tell me that you’ve lost your sense of humor.  Very sad.

Brad Drell
(and we don’t have to sign where in the Episcopal pecking order we are)

Can everyone calm down a little bit here and focus on the substantive issues, and not on writing a skit for Saturday Night Live. I believe that it is counter-productive to use other than respectful titles for the Presiding Bishop. However, we can and should challenge her actions and words when they are unbecoming of a bishop of the Church.

I find it most intriguing that she speaks of a hierarchical Church when talking about property and a bishop/diocese disengaging from the TEC. But I would bet my children’s inheritance that at a woman’s retreat she would rail at the male-dominated hierarchical structures of the Church. We should be asking her about that inconsistency in her stance.

To the those who feel Bishop Iker is violating his vows of ordination. Be careful in using this argument because the Presiding Bishop also made the vow that ” I do believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the Word of God, and contain all things necessary to salvation; and I do solemnly engage to conform to the doctrine…....” I think PB might be on thin ice here. Then there is the Examination where it is stated that the Bishop is “to guard the Faith…...”. And what about, ” Your heritage is the faith of apostles and martyrs.” Again, the Presiding Bishop is a thin here too.

And since the Presiding Bishop always speaks of the Baptismal Covenant let’s remind her that she promised to ” continue in the apostles’ teaching…”

Let’s put Bishop Iker, Duncan on one side of the paper and Presiding Bishop Katherine on the other and grade how they do with these vows and signs of a Bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Who do you think will pass the test? Who do you think would need some tutoring?  Let the Judgement begin!!

The “childish” name calling on SF shows the restraint and decency of those who post here.  We are disgusted by actions of the (deleted).  Aside from her heresy she has not taken on a level of primacy to which the Bishop of Rome might demure.  The adult words which a reasonable person might use to describe her actions are wisely witheld by those who post here so that the Gospel might not be shamed.

Go to Jake’s website and read the comments made about the orthodox and you will find true hatred, implied violence and the nastiest of immaturity.

“The Irreverend Dr. Mrs. (deleted)” may indeed show a lack of respect, but it is hard to respect those who are waging reconcilliation agianst you.

As an aside, isn’t it a little bit childish and immature to attach all sorts of not-very-cutsie nicknames to the Presiding Bishop and others?  I would have thought that most on this list would have more manners, more couth and more intelligence than to resort to such.

Actually, Mr. Garner, let me come to your defense (in a mild sort of way) and agree that some of the terms applied to Ms. Schori are a bit less than gracious.

However, they are not misogynistic, as another suggested.  Just take a look at what they used to call Frank Griswold.  Two wrongs don’t make a right, of course, but by comparison I’d say she’s gotten off pretty lightly thus far.

Hey, Ace, I do not hide behind anything. I use “Anglican Powderkeg” because I enjoy using it. Brucie, if you believe in the Word of God you should strenuously object to the direction this Church of the General Convention (formerly a Christian Church) has taken. Otherwise I believe the Word you are reading must be something other than the Christian Bible.
Constantly praying for all your souls,
“The Anglican Powderkeg” (so named by some liberal fop)
Fr. John Cornelius. SSC
Holy Cross
Warrensburg, New York

Re: “Your statements and actions in recent months demonstrate an intention to lead your diocese into a position that would purportedly permit it to depart from the Episcopal Church.”

Yep! Katherine. You are right about that. Bishop Iker and the Diocese of Fort Worth are on track to depart from the Episcopal “church”. As long as the Episcopal “church” continues her crazy movement in the direction of the absurd, Fort Worth is not going to be part of this madness. Count us out, Katherine!!

As I write, a Prayer Vigil is going on in my church for the spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical safety of our dear bishop. Other Dio of FW parishes and missions are also committing to praying for the Diocese and for our dear bishop.

May all faithful Anglicans everywhere keep Bishop Iker and our diocesan leadership in your prayers.

Fr. Kingsley+
St. Philip-the-Apostle
Arlington - Diocese of Fort Worth.

One Canon to thwart their will
One Canon to subdue them
One Canon to reign them in
And in the darkness screw them
In the land of Schordor where the Shadows lie

If I would refer to the apostate (edited) in New York as “Her Grace, the Presiding Bishop”, he would refer to the clueless (edited)  in Washington as “The President of the United States”.

OMG.  If that isn’t the funniest thing I have seen all year, then I don’t even exist.

Thank you Father Kingsley. Yes, a call to join all of us in prayer was issued 45 posts ago. It is interesting how Old Screwtape reacted. Suddenly we have lots and lots of irritated folks. But come and pray with us anyway and let the Holy Spirit guide you into the prayer. And yes not only pray for us and our Bishop but also for Katherine and her followers.

I don’t live in Ft. Worth, but I stay at a Holiday Inn when driving down to Laredo to visit family….does that count….can I be a member of the Iker fan club?

Sounds like Sister Kate, instead of listening to Bishop Howe’s pointed critique of her identical letter to Bishop Duncan and now the criticism by English bishops, has decided to keep on shimmying with the polity thing.  Tyrants always choose threats.

My prayer is that Bishop Iker reply with the same pithy response as written by Bishop Duncan:  “Here I stand.  I can do no other.”

Sorry about coming in late on this discussion, but has anyone addressed the question of when did the relationship between the diocese and 815 become “hierarchical”?  In 47 years in the priesthood I’ve never heard the description before. How extensive is the authority that proceeds from such a relationship? Does that mean that the PB has immediate authority like that of His Holiness?
This is mind-blowing! I always understood that the PB or the ABC could cross a diocesan line only with permission of the ordinary.
Strange new world. Like Calvin Coolidge and sin: I’m agin it!

Bruce Garner,
Being a former Atlantan myself, I do appreciate the fact that you included your parish.

‘Nuff said.

I’m seriously thinking about moving to the diocese of Fort Worth.

Nice little love letters like these from +PB will quickly galvanize the faithful and there are many of us in Texas who remember the Alamo.

Many years ago, on a completely different issue, I was told by ++Edmund Browning that ++Douglas Thuener (VGR’s predecessor here in NH and a “prime contributor” to the mess TEC is in now) had treated me very badly, but there was nothing he could do about it, as he had no jurisdiction over a bishop.  (I have that in writing)

Iker to KJS:  My dear Kate,  I have decided to follow Jesus.  No turning back, no turning back.  Would you like to follow with us or are you abandoning the Christian Communion?  Your most humble and obedient servant.  Bp Iker

And as far as name-calling goes, I really think our biggest mistake so far is in not giving her sidekick some props too.  After all, DB Beers is sorta the “wind beneath her wings,” no?

We could go the way of “People” and “InStyle” magazines and give them a duo-moniker….
Hmmmm….
How ‘bout “BeerKat”? 
(Kinda catchy, huh?)

If we were a group of psychologists examining KJS’s letter, we would be speaking in terms of “relational aggression” - this is the type of bullying that girls practice - they don’t fight overtly, or with their fists, but use language to exclude, ostracize, intimidate, etc….you know sort of like: well, if you’re going to talk to their communion, then you can’t talk to our communion and if you’re not going to play with us, we didn’t want to play with you anyway, so we’re gonna pick up our chalices and go home.

That hymn , dear Phophet, is a great way to say goodnight to all.
I have decided to follow Jesus.
I have decided to follow Jesus.
I have decided to follow Jesus.
No turning back. No turning back.

Though none go with me, yet I will follow.
Though none go with me, yet I will follow.
Though none go with me, yet I will follow.
No turning back. No turning back.

The world behind me, the cross before me.
The world behind me, the cross before me.
The world behind me, the cross before me.
No turning back. No turning back.

CAn’t remember the rest. May our Lord grant all of you a peaceful night. Nite y’all

Sing Glory, Glory and Hallelujah

Night, Houseownedbythedog

Michael,
My problem with your calling us misogynists is that a clear disapproval of a behavior or a statement does not equal hatred of that person.  This type of name calling means that I cannot converse with you because if I say what I believe, as others have done here with varying degrees of politeness, you’re not going to engage with what is said - you’re going to call me a misogynist or a homophobe and walk away.  If you are, go ahead, but please do not do so under the illusion that you’ve accomplished anything, using your real name or not. 

So please engage with the question.  Can you defend what she is doing?  Can you reconcile that she is threatening bishops with lawsuits, but won’t respond to the fact that the rest of the Anglican Communion is asking her to “recede” from her position?  She says that she’s disappointed that these bishops are seeking to lead their dioceses out of TEC - but her stances are going to lead TEC out of the Anglican Communion. How do you reconcile her saying that Jesus is our “vehicle” to the divine, rather than saying that He is divine?  How do you reconcile her saying that Jesus is a way but not the only way with what Jesus Himself says in the Bible? 

That’s what I want to hear from you.  Do you honestly have no problem with what she’s doing here?  Nothing unsettling?  Our leaders aren’t perfect, and you’ll see them questioned here, I’d like to hear your honest appraisal of the whole situation without name calling.

Bishop Iker
I’m standing with you! Stay strong and let not the (deleted) bother you.  In time she will be history!  God bless you.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen. 
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end. 

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

What part of this does she believe? The audacity of someone who cannot even agree to all these basic Christian principles to act as she has. I am Episcopalian and currently a in the Discernment Process to Ordained Ministry and I am confused as to what she believes it takes to be a Christian? Not just an Episcopalian, but a Christian? She will be judged by our Father, but can she honestly lead a group of Christians to knowing the Lord and his Son Jesus Christ if she doesn’t believe in the authenticy of Salvation, Reconciliation and the bible?

Can anyone explain this?

BeerKat! I Love it!

St. Paul did resort to name calling and derogatory remarks about those spreading heretical teaching on occasion, calling them Judaizers and wishing they would castrate themselves. But more importantly, on another occasion he restrained himself when he found out the man he was addressing without respect was the High Priest. He even apologized. As un-Christian as her beliefs and actions are, we, as Christians, should accord Bp. Schori due respect first because of her office and second because of something C.S. Lewis called the Weight of Glory—even if we believe calling her bishop is an oxymoron. Name calling really is sin.

Misogyny is not the presenting problem here. I think it is fair to say no one here hates her because she is a woman. Rather we are having a major problem with her actions and beliefs. She has provoked us to anger by her heresy and her pernicious behavior. She denied our Lord in Time magazine for mercy’s sake.  “Be angry but do not sin” can be a difficult command to obey at times like this. As wrong as our reappraising brothers often are, the name calling should stop. We are to be salt and light not fall to the temptation that this conflict brings.

Granted, I need to confess now. Because my thoughts toward Schori after such threats have been anything but lowly and meek.

<b>The Bible<b>

Well said, Ann McCarthy.

BTW—Many of us do post with our real names.  And a good number who use “handles” will at times sign with their names.  Name-calling isn’t nice, but as nicknames go, “Dr. (deleted) -Lady” is really not so bad.  She is an oceanographer, after all, and I would be surprised if she found that particular name offensive.

Just curious Bruce—why do you care whether people use their given names here?  Seems to me at Jake’s, most use handles as does Jake himeself.

Peace,
Pat Kashtock

Surprissingly quite from Bruce and Co. in the last hour or so. Not one answer to many questions put forth for him. Interesting indeed…..Could it be another Liberal hit and run?

No—he has probably gone to bed for the night—I should do the same.  It has gotten late.

Peace….

Bruce is probably wanting people to post their real names so they can add them to the pending lawsuits if people are in a dissenting diocese.  Just to make it easier on Bruce et. al. , I am:

Kevin Adams
member, St. John’s, La Porte, Texas

I am confused as to what Katherine believes it takes to be a Christian? Not just an Episcopalian, but a Christian? Does she believe in the authenticy of Salvation, Reconciliation and The Bible? Can anyone point to a resouce, statement or shed some light on what she actually believes?

Spencer
DWTX

Spence,

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/1503/

Happy reading ! 

I support Bishop Iker fully, and will be voting against unqualified assent at the Diocesan Convention next weekend.

I am Father Lee Nelson
Director of Youth and Family Ministries
St. Laurence Church, Southlake, TX
You can send my notice of inhibition to the parish office!  I have a frame waiting for it.

“It grieves me that….
“I would remind you of my open offer of an Episcopal Visitor…
“I continue to pray for reconciliation of this situation”—-KJS

In the last paragraph of the letter, KJS achieves a very high hypocrisy-to-content ratio.

The Hymn “I have decided to follow Jesus”  You can hear it here:  http://tinyurl.com/ytesf2  Maybe if we send it on to KJS she can listen to it in the night and be comforted.

Looks like I just got banned from Fr Jake in one post.

Was calling him a racist and a snob going too far in response to him pulling the chicken dinner theory?  Yikes.

Moot,
Thanks. I have found bits and pieces, but nothing this comprehensive. I encourage everyone to read this and keep it in mind as things progress: http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/1503/
Spencer
DWTX

There seems to be a great deal anger and enough name calling to go around on both sides of the fence. The charge of misogyny, however, is based on the fact that your African leaders refused to take communion with a female presiding bishop (Katherine Jefferts Schori) while receiving communion with a male presiding bishop of similar views (Frank Griswold).

Dear Mr. Garner,
Thank you for your candor. I use my blog name as I am a vestry member in an orthodox diocese and I wish to avoid your process server hired by your God at planet 815 who wishes to persecute me for my worship of Christ by way of the Holy Scriptures. Now that you know my ID I must find a new one.
Prayers,
Rosie O’Donnell

Regarding so called misogyny charges,I’d bank a bit more on the respective Archbishops not wanting to share communion with a person who was heretical in both doctrine and practice.

Gray Wolf:
Check your facts - they refused to commune with +Griswald as well after he agreed that the consecration was a “communion keller” and then went and attended anyway.
Kevin (in Texas):
How’s my good friend Mike+?  Tell him we are looking forward to chasing that little white ball together again soon.

I have done my best to read and enjoy, but the time for that is over.  I am not happy with this letter nor the attacks from liberal parish members on Stand Firm.  As a former member of the Diocese of Fort Worth, I stand with Bishop Iker and Bishop Duncan.  I believe that whatever +Iker does he is doing for the best interest of the flock.  As to KJS her sex has nothing to do with my or all of our utter disdain and loathing of her actions as the so called leader of the Church.  I realize I am stating the same things as all the faithful, but I got angry with the idea that this Blog and Forum is in anyway mosogynistic.  I pray for FW in their decisions upcoming as well for KJS the she will have a spiritual awakening renounce her orders so that we can be faithful to the Anglican Communion.

JohnnyREB “hiding behind a pseudo whatever”

Regarding the ongoing charges of misogyny on this thread- as in:

Of course it’s misogyny! The lack of respect for the PB on this list is appalling and disgraceful.

I am not sure what point is served by contesting such an argument.  First, it is a lazy argument which allows those who use it to avoid any interaction with the other side.  Second its principal purpose is not to persuade, but rather to let its user feel morally superior.  Third, it is an ad hominin argument which when reduced to its essence says nothing more than “Your principled objections are but camouflage for your bigoted views.”  There is no convincing such people.  Time is precious, and so even the arguments we engage must be subjected to triage.  Pearls before swine, and all that.

carl

PS - Note that I sign my name, my real name, my given name, my Christian name to my posts.  I have enough strength of conviction to own what I believe and write.  Apparently others prefer to hide behind pseudo whatevers.  But I’ve raised that issue here before only to have it fall on closed ears.

(Shrug)

God sees everything, anyhow.  Assumed names do not hide us from God; just as your strength of convictions do not hide you and yours from God, your names, your real names, your Christian names, notwithstanding. 

But we’re duly impressed by your strength of convictions, that are reinforced by a position of power and the will to abuse it. 

“Let’s hope copies of these letters are being given to all the Primates and the Archbishop of Canterbury.  If he doesn’t see the sickness in this and act to kick TEC out of the Communion, then he deserves to lose most of the Anglican Communion by tomorrow night at the latest.”  The ABC has absolutely no intention of kicking out TEC: He has never once suggested that there would even be the slightest discipline for her many misdeeds. And yes, he WILL lose most of the communion if he doesnt do so. As strange as it seems, I truly think that ABC Rowan still really believes that he can “keep both sides at the table talking to each other”, fudge, dither and delay, employ endless machinations and somehow keep the whole thing together. As Jack Palance used to say: ” Believe it-or not!”

The (deleted) references are merely a veiled manner to show disrespect and disgust. I don’t employ such subtlety. I simply claim these attitudes for this person explicitly. The women who showed that she could shrink church roles in the fastest growing state in the union and is now using those same techniques in the national levels, whose theology is a muddled and heretical as spong’s, who wages reconciliation with attack dog lawyers,  certainly deserves no respect whatsoever. I am very happy that the revisionists have her as their leader and hope that they continue to pledge their fealty to her.

I am pleased but sometimes wonder that there are no murmerings of discontent in the revistionists’ side with her “leadership skills.” Are there none who question these letters which galvanize support from within the dioceses but also garnering support internationally?

I, too, fully support Bishop Iker and will be voting in favor of the constitutional amendment to our accession clause that removes references to TEC next week. And I rejoice that our diocese may soon be joined with the faithful people of the Southern Cone.

Fatherlee, do you think we could get some sort of specialty frame for those letters of inhibition? Between the four dioceses there will probably be several hundred of them mailed out. That’s bound to get us a bulk discount!

Fr. Randall Foster
School Chaplain & Curate
St. Vincent’s Cathedral Church & School
Bedford, Texas

WHAT???? You mean “Jake” isn’t Fr. Jake’s real name? /sarcasm

Fatherlee, do you think we could get some sort of specialty frame for those letters of inhibition? Between the four dioceses there will probably be several hundred of them mailed out. That’s bound to get us a bulk discount!

I feel like I’m missing out here in Sydney. I don’t see any way I could get inhibited here…

mind you, I could work on having Aspinall, the Primate, get ticked off with me. Any suggestions?

This PB and her predecessor have insisted in international meetings that as bishops they cannot unilaterally make agreements for the church.  They are bound, they say, by the decisions of General Convention.

It seems highly ironic, therefore, for KJS to be threatening canonical charges against Duncan and Iker for doing what their diocesan conventions vote to do.  Here, she is specifically telling Iker what he must support and not support at the FW Convention.  If he doesn’t support what she says to, she will bring charges of abandonment of communion.

Lawyers, especially canon lawyers here, will this fly?

I leave it to the readers to reflect on the hypocrisy of maintaining international communion while flouting that body’s requests while threatening excommunication here at home for the same behavior domestically.

hierarchical relationship between the national Church and its dioceses and parishes. That relationship is at the heart of our mission, as expressed in our polity.

<u>That</u> relationship is at the “heart” of our mission?

Really?

I obviously don’t understand this “Christian stuff”. Silly me.

Fr.Lee and Father Randall Foster,
Please be exceedingly careful about what you post, esp. vis-a-vis the framing of your letters.
I fully expect to see the header, “Breaking: KJS claims she was framed by StandFirm Readers” on one of the revisionist sites today….

David Ould:

I feel like I’m missing out here in Sydney. I don’t see any way I could get inhibited here…

Well, we could write letters . . .

But if you want to be inhibited, it would help to know just how uninhibited you really are.  Must be something.

Do you wear your preaching gown to lots of public places?  That’s always subject to misinterpretation.  Especially with matching shoes and a handbag. 

And what about parades?  Been in any lately?  Doesn’t matter what kind, but we’ll need photos.

Have you left behind any sermon notes on cocktail napkins at the local pub?  Sure they’re hard to read—which makes it that much more likely that some kind of revisionist error can be sniffed out of them by an expert.  What were you thinking when you wrote all that stuff?

See how easy this is?  Don’t worry about a thing.  You could be reduced to preaching on street corners in no time at all.

At least until the police show up.  Then you’re on your own.

In the last paragraph of the letter, KJS achieves a very high hypocrisy-to-content ratio.

Posted by Irenaeus

“high hypocrisy-to-content ratio”,,, I like that.

Just for the record, I do have the exact same level of respect for Presiding Bishop Schori as I had for her predecessor Frank (Sufi-Rumi-Field-Beyond-Wrongdoing-And-Rightdoing) Griswold.

Dear Wormwood,

However to you get this human of yours to listen to you so completely.  What a fine and masterful job you have done getting her to send out these letters.  The mixture of indignant self-righteousness and legalism is surely a joy to behold.

I was particularly impressed that while your subject mentioned the constitution and canons of her church several times she made no mention of His words.  You must push hard now to keep her mind away from Scripture and on the ecclesiastical law.  We really have come much too far to loose it all now.  She must be made to see that this “New Thing” that she and others are doing, as well as the law of TEC, are much more important than the words of our opposition.

I was wondering though if you might be able to work on making this one seem a little human, she seems so much the cold fish.  If you could whisper in her ear a little more about being gracious and graceful it might help some.  I know your cousin is doing a masterful job in leading her chancellor, but do try to put a little distance between your charge and his. She must play the warm breeze to his icy wind.

Keep up the good work, I know Our Father Here Below has been terribly impressed by the work you have been doing.

Your Uncle,

Screwtape

I wonder if she dotted the “i” in Schori with a smiley face…

May I boldly suggest a Here I Stand campaign.

If we can get those here and others who support our faithful bishops to write and email +Katie with the simple words maybe we can drive home a point.

I suggest Bishop Duncan’s echo of Martin Luther: Here I stand.  I can do no other.  Send then via emai to (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).  Put them on paper and send it to her at 815 - let her know that +Duncan has your support.

Just an idea.

RSB

RSB,
Good Aye, the check-off is in the mail to 815. And your Screwtape letter is spot on.
john1

Bruce Garner,
john1 is John R. Moss
Cradle mbr, St. Luke’s, Jackson, TN ( Diocese West Tenn.); vestry, Sr. Warden; choir, Diosc. Conv delegate - TN and WTN, Bp & Council, COM etc.
all of which can be found easily if you pull me up on the memberlist, that is, if you’re a member of StandFirm. How’s that for transparency?

It seems highly ironic, therefore, for KJS to be threatening canonical charges against Duncan and Iker for doing what their diocesan conventions vote to do.  Here, she is specifically telling Iker what he must support and not support at the FW Convention.  If he doesn’t support what she says to, she will bring charges of abandonment of communion.

Lawyers, especially canon lawyers here, will this fly?

Not a canon lawyer, but I would say the answer is decidedly “no.”  Isn’t that why they backed off the presentment against +San Joaquin?

I do find it amusing that Kathy thinks this is a good idea, after it lost her votes in Pgh, for pete’s sake.  Unfortunately, she seems insistent on proving that her leadership skills end abruptly when she has to reach across world-viiews, something that I predicted would be her downfall a year ago when she took the post.  It had, after all, been a problem for her in NV.  It will be a much bigger problem nationally, as we are witnessing.

BTW, “Kathy” is what her husband calls her.  If you do not like said nick-name, take it up with Dick.  I use it because I’ve met & worked with the woman, and while I do not respect her as a bishop because I do not believe she took her oaths appropriately, I do respect her as a frankly intelligent and in many ways delightful fellow female.

Men who have the adaucity to accuse others of sexism are, IMO, the most sexist critters out there…

Ladies and Gentlemen
Please confine your comments to the actions and words of individuals and do not make personal attacks.

CSS Texas :

What it takes to be a faithful Episcopalian:

I have the ANSWER from Shori’s faithful side-kick, B. Brookhart in Montana!

Read the address he gave at the MT Convention and pay attention to the THREE parts of baptismal link

All there is, you see to being Christian is being thankful, tithing and being kind. 

All this stuff about “denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Christ” - gosh, where did you get that idea???? From the Bible or something???

I think I’ll stick with the Bible and trying to be Transformed in Christ and not Conformed to TEC.

Thanks be to God for B. Iker, B. Duncan and all those who agree.

I think of every horror movie I’ve ever seen. Night of the Lepus, King Kong, Dracula, The Blob, Mothra, etc. The monster always makes the most noise and flails its appendages and gnashes its fangs the most right before death.

Dear Bruce,

My name is Radford Bunker.  I am a faithful anglican living in the Diocese and City of Atlanta.  My daughter was baptised at, and my parents are communicates at All Saints were you are the Head Verger.

Let us talk about something close to home for you.  Geoffory’s blog for 11/7 starts:

Today is Guy Fawkes Day ... There is something vaguely ironic about the celebration of foiling a Roman Catholic plot on a weekend when the allegedly Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh had taken steps to attempt to separate from the Episcopal Church and ‘align’ themselves with some other Anglican province. It is surely the case that all such plots are about power and preference. 

How pleasant your priest is, comparing +Duncan to the man who would have been the mad suicide bomber of his day.  I can only imagine the other respectful comments made about the orthodox in your parish.

RSB
Here I Stand.

And like Bruce, this is my real name.  Not hiding behind some cute alias.

Because no one will call you a bigot, drive you out of your home parish, or otherwise persecute you.

Must be nice.

re:  “Recede”.  For the effect our PB was wanting, wouldn’t the appropriate term have been “metanoia (sp?)” or a real “turning” for the Godly Bishop Iker?  I mean, recede is so tame by comparison.  What she is really asking him to do is to turn away from his faith, to abandon God’s Will for his life as he understands it. 

One does not “recede” from that.  One must turn, and walk away.  If she had the strength of her convictions, right or wrong, she would demand a turning.  Recede, indeed!

Oh, and let’s not forget we are dealing with many Priests and Bishops whose ordination vows were of the 1928 stripe, not the watered down, structure-centric 79 versions.  Those ordination vows had meat and bone, demanded the postulant protect the Church from “strange doctrine”, demanded that the Bishop live a Godly life, and manage HIS own household as strongly as he would a diocese.  You cannot hold these men, who where ordained under such power and spirit, to the standards of today’s church, which are essentially no standards at all.

KTF!....mrb

KJS and the ECUSA revisionists are actively engaged in a program of persection of those who would defend the faith once delivered to the Saints.  As a result, there is alot of anger on our side, which is plainly manifest on the SF, T19, and other such blogsites.  This is not healthy.  Scripture calls us to break off fellowship from false teachers who are clothed in the garments of Christian clergy.  Thus, I think that we should get on with the process of separation without any further delay, which will then allow us to focus our attention on building up the Body of Christ and taking the Gospel to the unreached.  This will for sure involve apologetics with continued response to the heresy from ECUSA and other pseudo-Christian organizations, but the conversation will be at a different level.  Just my $0.02.

Am I correct that if the Title IV Review Committee determines that sufficient evidence exists that Bishops Iker, Duncan, et al may have abandoned TEc, all that remains is for the HOB to vote by a majority? No trial in abandonment cases?

If so, I can only project that it is a done deal, all very solemnly carried out.

Note that I sign my name, my real name, my given name, my Christian name to my posts.  I have enough strength of conviction to own what I believe and write.  Apparently others prefer to hide behind pseudo whatevers.

I continue to be in awe at the bold courage of revisionists!  To hear them talk, you’d almost think they had the full support of the church leadership together with most of the church’s money and property, plus the full weight of the secular humanist culture and its trendy celebrity activists!  It’s so easy to forget they’re really a tiny brave minority, dominated by the cruel oppressive hierarchy!

OK, I’m fresh out of sarcasm for now.

Bruce,

Let me remind you that you have been treated with courtesy on this blog; that you have been engaged in open, honest, and thoughtful conversation here.  Compare your treatment here with the treatment of the orthodox on reappraiser blogs.

Bruce, this is true even though most of us violently disagree with the stances you take both here and as a member of the Executive Council.  I just remind you that the mote in my eye might be a little smaller that that which is in yours.

Radford S. Bunker
Atlanta, GA

I have listened intently to both +Iker and +Schori.  I have a great deal of respect for +Iker.  I think +Schori is Unitarian Universalist in her beliefs.  I don’t respect or disrespect her.  I have no respect whatsoever for a “position”.  She has a secular and scientific world-view, which is the direct opposite of a Christian world view.  That does not make her a bad person.  She seems to enjoy the pay and the trappings of the office, but recall she was the least qualified of all candidates.  That, in itself, says a lot of the state of TEC.  I am afraid she has succumbed to unwarranted feelings of importance.  I expect she sees herself very differently than others around her, including those such as Beers, Nunley, etc.

He said to Peter, “Who do they say I am?”
Wonder how the PB would really answer this question.

Dio Fort Worth and +Iker have a lot of support from across the county line in Dallas…we’ll be following this closely.

Mr. Garner,

Folk here use pseudonyms for a variety of reasons.  Take “Snarsketer” for example.  He uses this name for some perverse and bizarre reason of his own.  But he will always give you his real name should you ask for it.  I called myself “Dumb Ox because I respect St. Thomas Aquinas and was reading “The Dumb Ox” at the time.
Some priests use pseudonyms here because of the possibility that use of their real name will get back to their liberal bishop and result in further persecution.  Most of us use our real name. 
Matt uses the pseudonym Matt Kennedy+ because he doesn’t want to get fired from his true position which is singing treble in the choir of St. John the Divine in NYC.

piedmont says: ” this woman (KJS) is clueless about leadership. “

Not true my friend. She is the pied-piper of revisionism. She leads if you follow her…..........although the destination will be right over the nearest proverbial cliff. She’s perfect for TEC…......that’s where it’s headed anyway.

Her letter seems to indicate she has not read +Williams’ letter to +Howe.

Bill C:  How many Snarsketeers are there?

All for one, and one for all!

The Snarksterteer is certainly skilled in verbal fencing

My perceptive fellow Nevadan <a >MJD</a> is of course absolutely right; it’s Kathy.  These letters are quite in keeping with Mrs. Schori’s favored approach to conflict resolution and reconciliation—namely, reach out to your purported opponent with a bigger hammer.
<hr width=30%>
For reference:

[Title IV] CANON 9: Of Abandonment of the Communion of This Church by a Bishop

Sec. 1. If a Bishop abandons the communion of this Church (i) by an open renunciation of the Doctrine, Discipline, or Worship of this Church, or (ii) by formal admission into any religious body not in communion with the same, or (iii) by exercising episcopal acts in and for a religious body other than this Church or another Church in communion with this Church, so as to extend to such body Holy Orders as this Church holds them, or to administer on behalf of such religious body Confirmation without the express consent and commission of the proper authority in this Church; it shall be the duty of the Review Committee, by a majority vote of All the Members, to certify the fact to the Presiding Bishop and with the certificate to send a statement of the acts or declarations which show such abandonment, which certificate and statement shall be recorded by the Presiding Bishop. The Presiding Bishop, with the consent of the three senior Bishops having jurisdiction in this Church, shall then inhibit the said Bishop until such time as the House of Bishops shall investigate the matter and act thereon. During the period of Inhibition, the Bishop shall not perform any episcopal, ministerial or canonical acts, except as relate to the administration of the temporal affairs of the Diocese of which the Bishop holds jurisdiction or in which the Bishop is then serving.

Sec. 2. The Presiding Bishop, or the presiding officer, shall forthwith give notice to the Bishop of the certification and Inhibition. Unless the inhibited Bishop, within two months, makes declaration by a Verified written statement to the Presiding Bishop, that the facts alleged in the certificate are false or utilizes the provisions of Canon IV.8 or Canon III.12.7, as applicable, the Bishop will be liable to Deposition. [...]

It would appear that 815 believes it has both the Review Committee and the Three Senior Bishops sufficiently terrorized to make this threat credible.  Either that, or 815 itself is in a state of panic and sees no alternative to an arrogant bluff.  Bets?

Bruce Garner,
Member, Executive Council
Communicant, All Saints’ Parish,  Diocese of Atlanta

That’s figures. :-( + Alexander in Atlanta has been working on “Same-Sex Marriage Liturgy” <i>before<i> VGR was “elected” but that would make perfect sense because the cathedral here is in the middle of the biggest “Gay” neighborhood in the Southeast.

you know the problem is that the TEC people just don’t get it.
Dioceses are intending to seperate, and instead of offering any sort of reconciliation, or some kind of mediation, they only offer demands with threats attached. 
There have been no hands extended to us in FW from anybody at 815 to turn us back from the path of seperation.  If they cared about us, don’t you think that they might consider reaching out?  Instead the only communication we get is in the form of a threat letter.

What Schori (or whatever name I’m supposed to call her to make the revisionists happy) has done is seal the deal.

The Rev. John W. Jordan, SSC
Curate, St. Vincent’s Cathedral
Fort Worth

Mr./Fr./Dr. Garner
When you figure out which one of us is +Rowan Williams, please let the rest of us know.

There are some amazingly creative “names” here at SF.  My two favorite are:

Nasty, Brutish & Short
and
SpongJohn SquarePantheist

How did they ever think those names up?  All I had to do was listen to a Bob Dylan song.  Those are original - and of course, pseudonyms have been a literary tradition since, well - in some circle - since William Shakespeare!

bb

Craig—Thanks for the section of the Canons. I still can’t make sense of the alternate move by the accused: “or utilizes the provisions of Canon IV.8 or Canon III.12.7, as applicable.” I looked these up and they don’t seem to apply. I’m assuming this is still under Title IV. Can anyone help?

So, I’m a “Snarsketeer” now? Hmmm…...Kinda has a nice ring to it.
En garde, all you revisionista knaves. The snarsketeer cometh.
heh heh…......

commandante snarko
aka Michael Ware of Meridian, Mississippi

RE: “Note that I sign my name, my real name, my given name, my Christian name to my posts.”

We’re all deeply touched, I’m sure. 

RE: “I have enough strength of conviction to own what I believe and write.”

Yeh . . . none of us have any strength of conviction!  ; > )

RE: “Apparently others prefer to hide behind pseudo whatevers.”

Yep—nice for people to be able to say what they believe without members of the Executive Council knowing who they are.  We feel it’s best that way.

RE: “But I’ve raised that issue here before only to have it fall on closed ears.”

Yep.

Of course that begs the question if we’re suppose to be impressed by Bruce Garner’s title since he not only giving his name but position and location ... proud of this hmmm?

Well, there is a huge group of people who I loved/loved me, served together, visited in the hospital, went to their weddings and the like who really only know me by “Jell-o.” Actually, I only know many of them by their nicknames as well.

Bruce (if that’s your real given name ;-p ) you’re merely a set of ASCII characters to me, if you stick around and form a relationship then that set of ASCII characters begins to have meaning.

Two things to keep in mind. Very early in Genesis we learn about the giving of names. Its purpose is to have dominion over something or someone. Isn’t it interesting that the desire to know the names has come from our friends on the “progressive” side.

The second point is that the one who makes the rules generally wins. The orthodox are guided by scripture and tradition, while the revisionists control by laws they make.

Is someone playing god here?

Has anybody noticed that many are replying to Mr. Garner, with clarity of real names, titles if appropriate, and locations as well at times, yet…...Where is Mr. Garner? I have yet to see him pop-up and address and apologize for his Liberal Revisionist Hit and Runattack on the loyal Stand Firmers that post here…..either in real given name or a fun moniker. Stand Firm posters have rsen to the standard dhyet again to take on a It and Run like the majority of Conservative Orthodox Christians and their leaders…..With Truth and Clarity.

RE: “I find the misogynitic attacks on women in power found in this string and others on Stand Firm very disturbing.”

This is a disturbing statement.  Are you saying that we cannot criticize women in power when they have bad ideas and practices, just because they are women?

How prejudiced that sounds!

Perhaps I should start a thread on praising great women in power—and you would discover very quickly that most SF commenters have no difficulties with “women in power”—they just have problems with bad ideas, whether carried by women or men.

Sign me . . .

Margaret Thatcher Rocks!

“rsen to the standard dhyet”
My charm again should read:
“risen to the standard yet again”

Susan,

I have long said “Mrs. Thatcher is the last real man in Britian.”  Sadly ++Rowan is in the process of proving me right.

RSB

We L2 use a pseudonym/web name for OUR protection.  Having my orthodox church threatened with ARSON in the 1980’s gave me full reason for that.  Further reason?  Elizabeth Keaton and her attack on Matt Kennedy’s family.  Yet another - and a personal one?  How about a reappraiser’s Orwellian 1984 comment to me recently implying that reasserters who resist reappaisers’ thinking are in need of psychiatric help?  Thanks, but neither I, nor any of my family, need the reappraiser non-Biblical kind of “ministry”:  writs for lawsuits or commitment.

But I will promise you this:  I will write my real and full name on my <u>checks</u> which I am making sure that not one thin dime or red cent is going to end up in Bruce Garner’s, Tom Woodward’s, or Katherine Schori’s/David Booth Beers’ hands.

I made my baptismal covenant to Jesus Christ, the Son of God and to the Word of God.  I have counted the cost of following Jesus and, as others have, know that may be unto death.

But I did not nor will I ever covenant with the Episcopal Church, and certainly NOT to the Constitutions and Canons of the Episcopal Church—especially when they are in conflict to Jesus and the Word of God.  And I’m not going to fund the Episcopal Church to be in conflict, either. 

Don’t like it?  Blame your reappraiser selves.

Time for my anti-misogynist statement of the day,Sarah rocks…..
For those of revisionist mindset,that is NOT a call to stone Sarah.
Note to Bishop Iker,thank you for your courage and commitment to the ‘faith once delivered’.

Bruce,

Oh hell, I’ll just thow in my birthday, 12/25/08.
(Yes, I know, I share it with What’s-His-Name).

At least we’ll know who’ll be the next Prez by that time, accompanying Dubya on that last limo ride to the Hill (and if I had my way, from there into the back of a police car).

The epitaph comes from the tomb of an actress in some cemetery in Los Angeles. I saw it on Find-A-Grave a few years ago.
Counterlight | 11.08.07 - 10:46 pm | #

From Fr Jake’s blog betting on when TEC will throw out its first orthodox bishop. No, couldn’t be.

BTW, where are you?  This wasn’t a hit and run was it?

Rad

TEC’s march off the cliff:

Don’t like it?  Blame your reappraiser selves.

L2, hope you don’t mind my appropriation of your apt turn of phrase.

Me thinks the PB has forgotten the meaning of being a Christian!
I wonder when she will declare herself Queen!
Tom of San Joaquin

<a >Gator</a>—III.12.7 and IV.8 are both about renouncing ministry; i.e. the Bishop can avoid the charge by resigning his Orders.

Bill C,

Are you co-opting my name?  Granted, I have the “Saint” attached to it, but how many Dumb Ox’s can their be?  (trick question?) 

Mr. (or Dr. or Fr.) Garner,
My real name can be found signed on the bottom of several checks that have recently gone out to a startup Anglican parish, the diocese of Pittsburgh, one of the few remaining orthodox TEC parishes in these parts (within 300 miles), and I might just send one to Fort Worth.  Cross reference against the people who are no longer sending money to TEC, and you should be able to figure out who I am.

Re:  To name or not to name?

I took on Eclipse as my name actually years and years ago with the Internet was very young and there was a thing called ‘Prodigy’ - and actually, I rather like it… as I am a cat person and don’t mind being identified with my cat who has now ‘shuffled off the mortal coil’.

However, the reason I stick to that alias is not because I have any concern for myself or my family - I’ve been in the cross hairs of the the Diocese of Montana since 2003 - but for the sake of some of my brothers and sisters in the Faith that still think that somehow they are going to get in trouble - I’m not sure how, really, I’ve often said, “Oh, what are they going to do?  Excommunicate you??” (we are in the Diocese of Uganda now).  However, be as it may, I stay anonymous for the sake of some who would not sleep at night otherwise… that is what we do for our community of Believers.

Meow!

Eclipse

So, Eclipse, do you drive one?

I use my handle to avoid facile comparisons or questions about a certain revisionist bishop who shares my surname. Anyone truly interested can readily find me and easily contact me by perusing my oft-posted signature line: ...from the Briar Patch,

I have to think +Schori is getting some real bad legal advice.  Let me quote verbatim all of the language in the canons of TEC that forbid a Diocese from leaving TEC:

The shrillness of those saying a diocese can’t leave is rather amusing.  Read the canons.  Does anyone really think a Bishop in another province of the Anglican Communion would care if he were inhibited by +Schori?  On second thought, I think he would be rather proud.

Athanasius Returns:  Feel free to quote, glad to be of service.  Any royalties can go to SFIF.

BTW, we’ve always liked how +Iker visits here AND comments from time to time.  Always made us feel he cares for all of his flock by being here.

Br_er Rabbit :

No, I drive really odd cars - so odd in fact - that if I named what I drove I might as well not be anonymous anymore. 

I WISH I had an Eclipse, however…

comment deleted.

I just logged on to my computer and saw this quote from CS Lewis:

I wish they’d remember that the charge to Peter was feed my sheep; not try experiments on my rats, or even, teach my performing dogs new tricks.

  Letters to Malcolm

For some reason, I instantly thought it might be good advice for Shori and the other TEC bishops…

LOL!

Bruce and Ms. KJS -
We will not back down from proclaiming the transforming power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  “blessed are you when men revile you on account of my sake…especially when those men and woman have itching ears and hold the form of religion but deny its power.

The Very Rev. Ryan S. Reed
St. Vincent’s Cathedral Church, Bedford
Diocese of Fort Worth
Born 10/19/67
Wife:  Kathy   Daughter:  Grace
5’7’’  blue eyes, brown hair
President of Standing Committee, Former Steering Committee Member of the ACN, Board of Trustees - AAC
SSN# (well you get the idea)

Uh, let me guess:  Bp. Iker is not losing any sleep over this.

“I wonder if she dotted the “i” in Schori with a smiley face…”

Nah, tired, I think she dots it with a dollar sign.

Ryan Reed wrote:
“We will not back down from proclaiming the transforming power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. “blessed are you when men revile you on account of my sake…especially when those men and woman have itching ears and hold the form of religion but deny its power.”

Same applies for me, my brother in Christ.  I could share with you the experiences of Christ’s transformation in my life, but from what I have read, most would not believe it. 

I sign my name because I consider that to be just a part of the etiquette of my raising by my parents.  I put the “title” there because on another list, it is required in order to post.  Sorry if doing so offends some.  I will leave it out.  Although sometimes I do like knowing where someone is and what their connection to the Episcopal Church is.

As far as not responding, I have been at our Diocesan Coucil all day and will be there all day tomorrow. We are celebrating the end of the yearlong celebration of our centennial year, having been created out of the diocese of Georgia in 1907.  Again, my apologies for not being as responsive as some might like.

As to the comment about the location of our Cathedral:  Actually it’s located in the Buckhead area.  And that is hardly the gayest neigborhood in the city.  A number of areas have much larger populations of lesbians and gays.  However, the vast majority do not attend church any where at all.  They are tired of having doors slammed in their faces.  And they think I am crazy for remaining part of organized religion.  From my perspective, I can no nothing but remain part of the church…..that is what my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has required of me.

Bruce Garner

God bless you, Bruce. Hang in there. Hold on to all of Jesus you can grab.

Thanks.  Actually I don’t seem to have to do much to “hang on to Jesus” since He seems to be holding me very closely and tightly at the moment.  It’s a blessed place to be.  Reminds me that we never walk this journey called life alone.

Bruce Garner

P.S. - Does this system have spell check?  My fingers get out of order and I don’t always catch the typos.

spell check:

If it does, I haven’t found it.

However, the vast majority do not attend church any where at all.  They are tired of having doors slammed in their faces.

I’m confused.  Do the parishes in the Diocese of Atlanta have bouncers?

Does this system have spell check? My fingers get out of order and I don’t always catch the typos.

Bruce,
Glad to see you back, I must admit and confess that I thought you were what we call a Revisionist Hit and run. We have gotten them and get them quite frequently here on Stand Firm and well ....my apologies and beg forgiveness for my assumption. I may not agree with your stance on some things nor believe the same way as you do, but if you love the Lord Jesus as much as you state in the posting that I plucked the above quote from and you believe in the Word of God and in Hs transforming power within us sinners lives, then you like me are a work in progress and God isn’t done with us yet.

BTW…I mis-spell all the time and I know it’s just part of my charm…God and many know my views and heart and can look past and through my mis-spellings….no worries mate!
God’s Blessings
ODC

Bruce—I think the spell-check may either depend on your browser, or the settings for your browser.  I am on Internet Explorer on my husband’s computer as mine died a slow and painful death this week.  IE on this machine has no blog spell check.  But I use Firefox on mine, and there is spell check.  Let me do a little checking around for you.  There may be a way to deal with it rather than having to paste into Word.  So far I can’t find IE settings or tools to do that, but I’ll look a couple other places.

Peace,
Pat

Okay, Bruce—from what I read, IE does not have a spell check feature available, but Mozzilla Firefox does.

Google Toolbar, which is a free add-on, has its own spell checker: http://toolbar.google.com/T4/index_pack.html
You can add this to IE.  Here is what they say on the Google site,

“SpellCheck
ARe yu a raelly bad tyipsst? Google Toolbar’s new SpellCheck button finds any spelling mistakes whenever you type into a web form, including web-based email, discussion forums, and even intranet web applications. The AutoFix option even corrects all of your text with a single click.

Here is a Microsoft page about add-ons:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/web/sp2_addonmanager.mspx

It appears the Yahoo toolbar which is the one on this machine, can only spell check within email.  :(

So maybe you would like downloading the Google toolbar, if you did not feel like changing to the Firefox browser.

Hope that helps.  Hope you get this!

Blessings,
Pat

Oops, sorry Bruce—I forgot the Firefox link, just in case you wanted it.  http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/

It is free, too.  I really like using it, but the Google toolbar does work, also and I don’t think it slows your computer down the way some add-ons do.

Thank you Dean Reed for your comments to this, you are a great leader and defender of the faith. Let +Iker know our prayers are with yall in Ft Worth.
Bruce I am sorry for holding you in on the hit and run.  May the lord bless you and keep you and may you never lose sight of the loving hand of our savior Jesus Christ.

Johnnyreb

As to the comment about the location of our Cathedral:  Actually it’s located in the Buckhead area.  And that is hardly the gayest neigborhood in the city.  A number of areas have much larger populations of lesbians and gays.

The Cathedral is 1.4 miles from the Midtown Area which is the largest gay neighborhood in the Southeast according to Google. Trust me I know where Midtown is. I had to work there for many years which was a inconvenience since I live in Sandy Springs.

ODC

BTW…I mis-spell all the time and I know it’s just part of my charm…God and many know my views and heart and can look past and through my mis-spellings

I need to borrow that one. 99% of what I write is now done on systems that correct my most common errors without even notifying me… definitely reinforces bad behavior. And my handwriting (nothing to sing about as it was) has only deteriorated because of it.

Tomorrow is my 12th anniversary and my biggest challenge isn’t what to say in my love letter… it’s how to make it legible.

“Part of my charm”... yeah, that’s the ticket.

I am wondering why Bruce Garner is trying to convince ANYONE that All Saints and the Cathedral of St Phillip are anything but nestled smack in the middle of gay neighborhoods, and are both exceedingly liberal revisionist churches.
Just wondering.
Signed, Lived in Buckhead for 20 years

RE: “sign my name because I consider that to be just a part of the etiquette of my raising by my parents.  I put the “title” there because on another list, it is required in order to post.  Sorry if doing so offends some.”

Actually, I don’t think that anybody cares about your signing your name.  I think what people were responding to was this line right here in all of its self-righteous glory: “PS - Note that I sign my name, my real name, my given name, my Christian name to my posts.  I have enough strength of conviction to own what I believe and write.  Apparently others prefer to hide behind pseudo whatevers.”

But it’s a good try at misdirection.  ; > )

Feel free to keep signing your name. 

And commenters who prefer to comment under pseudonyms? Ya’ll feel free to continue.

I have a question for Bruce.  But for +KJS’ gender - do you believe she would be Presiding Bishop?

Bruce, it may well be that you are a sincere and committed Christian who trusts in the saving power of Jesus Christ.  If that is so, how in the world can you, as a member of the Executive Council, countenance the absolute vicious evil that the PB and Beers are attempting to do to faithful and Godly bishops like +Duncan and +Iker?  Or has polity become more holy and more important to you than the faith once delivered?  And how can you support the PB in her heretical denial of Jesus as the one way to salvation (among other heresies) and then stand by when she accuses +Duncan and +Iker of abandoning the communion?  Are polity and buildings and power so important to you that you will support these evil attacks by TEC on the body of Christ?

revdrrayj
Your comment has been deleted.  It was not appropriate.  Comments need to address the actions and words of others.  Personal attacks are not permitted.

Positive Phototaxis,
I am flattered and thrilled that you find my charm useful for yourself….Use it in good cheer and Happy Anniversary and may the Lord bless you with many more to come.
ODC

I am wondering why Bruce Garner is trying to convince ANYONE that All Saints and the Cathedral of St Phillip are anything but nestled smack in the middle of gay neighborhoods, and are both exceedingly liberal revisionist churches.
Just wondering.
Signed, Lived in Buckhead for 20 years

I was wondering that myself. It’s puzzling.

I’m kind of amused by the attempt to determine the relative gayness of a particular neighborhood.  sure midtown is pretty gay friendly but I still say decatur has more lesbians.

sorry, just amusing myself.

... but I still say decatur has more lesbians.

Are there many Subarus in Decatur?

I really don’t care if Bruce is a member of Executive Council; more power to him.  I also really don’t care if he signs his name as such. 

I will, however, point out, that it speaks volumes that I sincerely doubt *I* could ever be on Executive Council, because I’m theologically traditional and I happen to be straight. 

It’s truly the double standards in this Church that are nowhere near being “of God”...

And thus, realignment would not upset me in the least…

Hey Commenatrix,
Do you wear leather when you go on a delete-a-thon????????

Oh by the way how does one delete oneself from this pathetic excuse for a website?????????

I’m kind of amused by the attempt to determine the relative gayness of a particular neighborhood

Well, now that you mention it, it is kind of funny.

I would like Bruce to appear and answer the questions posed by Hanks. That would be a wonderful thing to see.

“Oh by the way how does one delete oneself from this pathetic excuse for a website?????????”  Errrr-perhaps just dont visit the site and post here anymore? Just a suggestion….

So, how about some entirely scriptural appellations for the religious (TEC) leaders:  Brood of vipers! Hypocrits!  Blind Guides! Whitewashed Tombs!

Com’on, troops, help me out here!

Are there many Subarus in Decatur?

and volvos.

I drive a Subaru.  Thirteen years old and 228,000 miles.  I will get another one when this one wears out.  My “older car” is a more manly 16 year-old Chevy pickup.

I should add that my pickup does not have a gun rack so I am still considered a tassle-loafered city slicker where I live.

  I would like Bruce to appear and answer the questions posed by Hanks. That would be a wonderful thing to see.

Thanks, johnnyreb, for trying to get us off Subarus etc and back on track.  I did not think my questions were all that difficult—and were not meant to trick Bruce.  Quite honestly, I don’t understand how serious Christians still in TEC can live with the evil stuff coming out of 815—the lawsuits, the threats and the heresy.

I really would like Bruce to answer and others to comment.

I am a serious Christian still in TEC because i am not in charge of my household.  you want to hear more about why we haven’t jumped ship, you’ll have to ask my husband.  scandalous, I know.  Not that it’s a mystery to me.  neither of us really approves of continuing churches—not trying to be controversial, just saying—and he isn’t totally in line with RC belief.  where are you going to go?  So we wait.  and I wait because he’s waiting.

Oh by the way how does one delete oneself from this pathetic excuse for a website?????????

Awww… rev… don’t go away mad.

Just go away.

AnnieV, it’s not good people like you and your family I am talking about.  My question was addressed to Bruce Garner as a member of the TEC Executive Council, where support for KJS and Beers has been clear and loud.  It’s those who support the evil of lawsuits, threats and heresies that I can’t understand.

As for you, my prayers are with you that you will soon find a place where you can express your faith in a supportive community.  I’ve been blessed to find a new Anglicann church and I can assure you that the joy in being free from TEC is real.

AnnieV wrote:

neither of us really approves of continuing churches—not trying to be controversial, just saying—and he isn’t totally in line with RC belief.  where are you going to go?  So we wait.  and I wait because he’s waiting.

Same here, except I’m waiting by myself. To use the “Titanic” analogy, I know TEC has hit the iceberg, but I’m told there’s an ocean liner on the way to pick us up. Since the water hasn’t gotten up to the deck I’m on, and the lifeboats don’t look very seaworthy to me, I’m staying put until either the ocean liner gets here or the water gets high enough that the lifeboats start looking better than the ship.

Now we are all on the Titanic?  Well I guess that is better than being a member of the Donner Party or Custer’s Last Stand.

Now we are all on the Titanic?  Well I guess that is better than being a member of the Donner Party or Custer’s Last Stand.

I’m not the first to use that one, am I? I think the parallels are pretty striking—a magnificent vessel wrecked by a hazard of which the crew had been informed in plenty of time to avoid it. I don’t know much about Custer’s Last Stand or the Donner Party, but if (as I suspect) they involved people getting themselves into a bad situation by disregarding repeated warnings and/or obvious danger signals, they are equally good analogies.

I don’t know if this will answer the question posted or not but I will give it an attempt. 

My election to Executive Council was not based on my gender or sexual orientation or anything like that.  (I was surprised and delighted at some of the deputations in Province IV who were supporting me.)  I’ve been blessed to have over 20 years of experience in non-profit organizations….something helpful for a member of EC.  I also have a number of years experience in human resources - also helpful in EC. 

Most importantly, at least from my perspective, has been my deep and continuous involvement in The Episcopal Church since I was baptized and confirmed in 1965.  It was clear to me from the beginning that I had “come home” when I first encountered the Episcopal Church.  I have been a communicant in small, medium and very large parishes, serving on vestries, committees, taught Sunday School, been the Acolyte Advisor, served on the altar guild (probably because I was the only one strong enough to bring the large brass altar cross down for cleaning!), been a lay reader/chalice bearer/lay eucharistic minister/eucahristic minister and now the Head Verger at my parish for the last 11 years. 

All of that has been a journey that my heart tells me was being guided by the Holy Spirit, giving me a very broad experience in our church.  Accordingly I view many things differently from some if not most.  Broad based and long term experience has its advantages, especially once one reaches the “old fart” stage of life. 

From confirmation classes I was taught the inclusive nature, radicallly inclusive nature of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  I was taught that there was a place for all in this church.  And that was the lesson from a very small struggling mission where I and my mother were both baptized and confirmed on the same days.  (Mother died August 23 of this year after serving her parish for many years, hell she was one of the rocks of its foundation!)

That notion of inclusion was further nurtured an small and medium sized parishes in various other places in Georgia….all much smaller than Atlanta.  It was simply a part of who we were as a church. 

So what I bring to Executive Council is apparently something someone thought was of value.  I will contribute whatever of my talents prove useful.

As far as Bishop Katharine is concerned, I must be honest and state that I find it reprehensible how she is treated on this list and by some dioceses of the church.  I have had the very pleasant experience of being able to spend a week at the time with her several times so far in my term on EC.  I have come to know her as a very compassionate and cariing person, very spiritual and very much an orthodox person in her theology.  She is also very quick to either apologize when she has miscategorized something or not heard what someone has said the way they meant it. 

Like it or not, my sisters and brothers, Bishop Katharine is doing what her ordination vows and the constitution and canons of the Episcopal Church require her to do.  She has a responsbility to uphold those.  The same applies to every bishop, priest and deacon of the church.  Anyone who can not continue to do so in good conscience should be honorable enough to renounce her/his orders. 

I as a member of EC must also exercise my responsibilities.  Over the years I have given many, many gifts to the church.  Once given they were no longer mine.  I could not take them back if I disagreed with some policy of the church.  THat’s true for all of us.  If we didn’t give a gift without strings it was never a gift.  So yes, when someone attempts to take something away that is not theirs, no longer theirs or however one terms it, there will be consequences for such actions.  I don’t particularly relish having to do that, but it is a responsibility I must uphold.

I would simply as that you make an effort to really get to know our Presiding Bishop.  She is a remarkable person.  Her gender did not get her elected as PB.  I heard from too many bishops about the atmosphere in the church duing the election.  The Holy Spirit began to move and it moved like a gentle wind through the house of bishops and resulted in Bishop Katharine’s election.  So while some may not like her, it really is inappropriate to denigrate her the way I have heard on this list. 

Don’t know if I answered the question or not, but if not I am certain to hear about it.

As far as the gay neighborhoods in Atlanta, let me assure you that the folks in Buckhead do not consider themselves to be living in a gay neighborhood.  On the other hand, I live in Midtown, Atlanta’s Gay Ghetto!  Buckhead is sometimes also known as “utter whiteness.”  There may be only a few miles distance between the Cathedral and All Saints’ but it’s a world away in so many, many ways.  How do I know?  I was born and raised here and llived here all of my 58 years except two.

Bruce Garner

Bruce, when someone says that Bp Schori is orthodox, that does not reassure me that she is; rather, it leads me to wonder what the reassurer’s idea of orthodoxy is.

I have read the things she has written in the last years, and listened to or seen nearly all the talks available on the Web.  She simply has a huge hodge-podge of ideas garnered from obscure corners of Church history.  I’d love to hear her in a discussion on theology with NT Wright or JI Packer—or even with an apologist and evangelist like Michael Green.  I do not think she would come off very well.  She may be pleasant, caring, and all manner of good things at a personal level—but that does not make one an orthodox teacher of the Christian faith.

“My election to Executive Council was not based on my gender or sexual orientation or anything like that.  (I was surprised and delighted at some of the deputations in Province IV who were supporting me.) I’ve been blessed to have over 20 years of experience in non-profit organizations…. I have been a communicant in small, medium and very large parishes, serving on vestries, committees, taught Sunday School, been the Acolyte Advisor, served on the altar guild (probably because I was the only one strong enough to bring the large brass altar cross down for cleaning!), been a lay reader/chalice bearer/lay eucharistic minister/eucahristic minister and now the Head Verger at my parish for the last 11 years. 

I have lived in near the center of power all my life, I’ve gone to school or Boy Scouts with the children of ambassadors, generals, congressmen, I’ve had one friend with many stories of Amy Carter—one girl father was secretary of the Navy, your parents learned this if you didn’t bring Jennifer home at curfew! I grew up about a mile south of retire Chief Justice Burger and about 1/4 mile east of Rehnquist’s townhome.

All I have to say Mr. Bruce Garner is you REALLY seem unsure of yourself to give this type of defense for you title!!!! Personally, I’ve grown up around titles, I’m not that impressed—titles come, titles go every four years in my town.

Hey, I have a Deputy Secretary of a government agency in my Bible study, do you want to know something, it’s so neat because she’s new at taking Jesus seriously and only convicted about tithing last February. Also foreign born guy who never finished HS, but he runs rings around her spiritually! Still she’s a joy because she DOES NOT give her resume, she’s just _____ {oops I didn’t give you her name either, I bet I have a reason for that}.

Your humility is very underwhelming! I’ll say that it’s the attitude most service people in my town dread walking into the home of such, ‘woe to the tech who has the insecure congressman!’

(BTW - many on SFIF have similar resumes, just they don’t see the need to post them as a supposed act of humility).

I agree with AnglicanXn about her “orthodox” beliefs.  To state facts about her heretical statements is not a personal attack on her.  We are talking about the stated beliefs of the PB.

And as to her compassion, you can not read the letters to +Duncan and +Iker and find an ounce of compassion there.  A look at the pressure 815 put on +Lee to undo the deal that had been struck with the Virginia churches is another example of 815 (whether the PB or Beers) acting totally without compassion.  Had the PB kept to the agreement she made at Dar es Salaam to establish a Primatial Vicar as described in that communique, that would have been some evidence of compassion toward the orthodox in TEC.  But every move has been to the contrary—threats and lawsuits.

If you believe that conduct is required by the new Scripture—the Canons and Constitution—why is discipline not applied to bishops like Bruno?  You may find her to be nice because you both agree with the “new thing” that brought us VGR despite the pleas of the Primates and is bringing us open flaunting of same sex blessings, but that veneer disappears when she deals with we orthodox.

You really didn’t answer my questions, but that’s no surprise.  The party line is that you all have the votes—and that’s what determines everything, instead of relying on Holy Scripture and the faith once delivered.  As Bishop Howe has pointed out, it is shameful what the PB is doing in writing these letters.

I have another question, Mr. Garner - one posed earlier on this site. 

—Why is it that when the General Convention passes a new innovation, or takes the Church in a “new direction” it is considered a move of the Holy Spirit, but when a Diocesan Convention passes a resolution, it is rebellious and schismatic? 

—How can you affirm decisions made by a democratic process and have a majority of Bishops attest that they cannot “buck the system”, yet hold a Bishop accountable for the actions of an identical democratic process?
Can you answer that?  I truly want to know what you think the difference is?
GillianC (my real name - at least most of it)

OK, so KJS makes statements that my theology puts God in a small, confined space and that there’s really no way we can know exactly God’s truth, but she’ll be bold enough to claim she can actually know for certain what the canons mean?

I guess even post-modernism has limits in its application.

Bruce,
Thanks for coming here and staying considering you’re taking some pretty tough knocks, which I’m sure you expected.  Keep returning!  By the way if I really want to avoid misspelling, I write my comment on word, then copy and paste.

St. Dumb Ox:  I was Dumb Ox long before you showed up and took my name.  Guess we read the same book.  I finally decided to come back as Bill C. I used to use my full name (Bill Channon)  but to my horror found I could then be googled -and that I didn’t want.  I’ll leave being googlified to my brother-in-law who is a pretty famous surgeon.

Snarketeer ... is that a new form of mouseketeer?  Please answer this incredibly important question.

Piedmont:  a bakers dozen but only the most famous one comes here!

Actually this whole thread is bewildering often straying far and wide from the serious issue of the post to how to name ourselves -which I don’t think is terribly important but sometimes fun like Snarkster and his snarksterisms -entertaining cracks- which I find a welcome relief in the middle of a hot and heavy discussion.  I drive a Ford 500 which I like because it has a navigation system that always helps me get home and also helps me find new clients in rural NH.  Now why the heck did I write that?

Mr. Garner,

I have a question about your experience with +Katherine. From your experiences with +her, would you say that she believes in the unique and unequivocal Salvation and Reconciliation with the Lord offered to us through Jesus?

I ask this honestly and without prejudice as I myself am seeking the will of the Lord for my own life through the Discernment Process to Ordained Ministry. I and others with whom I have spoken have serious questions about the fundamental beliefs behind the person who is charged with representing us to the rest of the world. Do you see these as valid questions or concerns? Why or why not?

I would be willing to discuss this with you via email or phone if you would prefer. Thank you in advance for your time and willingness to answer these questions.

Respectfully,

Spencer
DWTX

My objections to KJS have nothing to do with her gender.  I am a great admirer of Canadian bishop Victoria Matthews, a woman of sound principle and theology.  My objections to KJS are based on her conduct.  This is a PB who attended an Integrity service immediately after her election, thereby throwing down a political gauntlet in a time of looming schism.  Having done this, she didn’t even have the personal integrity to admit to her own activism, but tried to weasel out of it by saying “I just went to a church service.”

She signed the Dar es Salaam agreement, then tried to weasel out of that too by denying she’d signed it.  She withheld her consent from an elected orthodox bishop on a flimsy technical loophole, then gave it freely to a liberal bishop-elect who had encountered the same technical obstacle.  She has issued threats against orthodox parishes that resist TEC’s authority while turning a blind eye to liberal parishes that flout the rulings of General Convention.  Her theology is unsound, she is a devotee of John Spong (a heretic by any definition) and she has hurt ecumenism by insulting the Roman Catholics.  The list goes on and on…

She does not come across as compassionate to those of us on the orthodox side.  She comes across as an uncompromising idealogue who has done nothing to prevent the disintegration of the church under her care, and in many ways has actually contributed to that process of disintegration. 

And believe me, this is how history will remember her.

Bruce:

More important than Executive Councils or KJS ideaology is the Person of Christ.  Like John, our emphasis needs to be soley that ‘He will increase and I will decrease’ OR as Paul says ‘to live is for Christ and to die is to gain’.

That is what being a Christian is about - it is because Jesus has been superceded TEC’s desire to conform to the world, to tranform the Scriptures to their changing ideology, and reform Christianity into Unitarian beliefs that most of us have had part company with it.

I don’t want to be Episcopalian - I just want to follow Christ and become more like Him and draw others to Him.  When TEC remembers that is the ENTIRE ministry of Christianity, then I might be interested in being a part of it.  This is what the Global South remembers and THAT is the reason those of us who want to remain Anglican will go to them.

It’s not about structure, cannons, and the polity of the Episcopal Church - it’s about Christ.  B. Iker gets it, B. Duncan gets it… thanks be to God.

Bruce,

How can you defend KJS actions when she has allowed the liberal dioceses to abandon some of the constitutions and canons, and turned a blind eye.  However the churches and diocese that are conservative who have upheld Christ and his Church she has lashed out against.  I am trying not to be mean but give me a break.  This is POLITICAL not scriptural.  Pray on the scripture and our Savior Jesus Christ being the guide NOT POLITICS.  IF you can state that this is not politics give me some basis. Another thing,you talk about honor in renouncing vows,  it seems that the revisionists have no such honor, because they are abandoning the faith through unitarianism beliefs. In my humble opinion if anyone should renounce there vows it should be KJS not +Iker and +Duncan. They have held true to the beliefs of the AC and not to playing politics at all cost.

Maybe I should have been a member of the Donner Party, LOL.  Anyway thank you for your answer and I hope I was not whining or came of as if I was freaking out I am just making a point. 

JohnnyReb

They are tired of having doors slammed in their faces.

I don’t believe that anyone here thinks that gay people should be turned away from church. IMO, I don’t have a problem with them being baptized. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Romans&chapno=3&startverse=23&endverse;= No matter what ++KJS says. How else can they learn about Jesus if we turn them away. What I do have a problem with is when their sexual behavior is condoned and/or rewarded with a leadership role within the church. Leaders should be held to a higher standard.

PS - Note that I sign my name, my real name, my
given name, my Christian name to my posts.  I have enough strength of conviction to own what I believe and write.  Apparently others prefer to hide behind pseudo whatevers.  But I’ve raised that issue here before only to have it fall on closed ears.

I don’t sign my name anywhere on the internet because my husband asked me not to because he travels about 2-3 days a week and I’m home alone 2-3 night week.

As far as the gay neighborhoods in Atlanta, let me assure you that the folks in Buckhead do not consider themselves to be living in a gay neighborhood

This is beyond ridiculous. What is going to stop anyone, gay or straight, from getting into their car or talking MARTA and just going to the Cathedral? God knows I did it for years all the way from Sandy Springs just to hear Rite I on a regular basis.

Besides, my concern goes further than the “gay” issue. I find the Universalist leanings just as troubling.

“They are tired of having doors slammed in their faces.”

That shouldn’t happen.  We all should repent for allowing things to get to a point where one particular type of sexual immorality became, in the public’s eyes, the basis for the breach.  For too long we tolerated confusion and unfaithfulness in the church in areas such as serial divorce, abortion, adultery, premarital sex, etc.  We also tolerated church leaders who openly repudiated The Truth upon which the Church was built. The gay community has a point when they look to many of us and say “double standard” or “hypocrite”. I am also reminded that we are all most likely to condemn those sins we are least likely to commit.  We all need to reexamine the effectiveness of our communication to our gay friends and neighbors.  Are we showing them love?

But true love, true acceptance as individuals, true compassion, is premised on Jesus Christ and by definition cannot be divorced from Biblical truth.  Forgiveness stems from repentance, and repentance stems from an understanding of the human condition as revealed by His Word. If we do not remain true to that standard, we do indeed slam the door in their faces. It would be far better that your Cathedral close, than to lead some astray.

“They are tired of having doors slammed in their faces.”

That shouldn’t happen.

It would indeed be a bad thing… if it were actually happening.  But I doubt it is.  I believe Mr Garner is engaging in some “poetic license” here.

I have a few questions: 
First a clarification on “getting doors slammed in their faces.”  It has been my experience this means they left in a huff because the parish refused to embrace and celebrate their practicing homosexuality despite the fact the parish offered a warm and Christian welcome.
Second - are practicing prostitutes welcomed and their lifestyle embraced and are they on any governing boards   If not, why are they not included in the inclusivity?

Well so many questions have been thrown at me that I am not sure where to start.  But I will again give it a try.

My experience with Bishop Katharine is that she is a Trinitarian based theologian and yes I would put her up against N.T. Wright without hesitation.  I’ve talked to the man one on one and I doubt they would disagree on much except issues of sexual orientation.  And in conversation with me in my own parish even he could not justify why he had reached where he is on so many other so-called socially liberal issues but not on human sexuality.  He did however honor the questioning.

None of us, I repeat, none of us has been allowed to judge the relationship of another with God.  For me, and I believe for Bishop Katharine, Jesus is the way the truth and the life.  At the same time, it is not my place to say what path others may take to God.  No where, for example, is there evidence in either the Hebrew Scriptures or the Christian Testament that God’s Covenant with Israel had been declared invalid.  It’s called a personal relationship with Jesus Christ for a reason….it is personal, one on one, and we just don’t get to evaluate each other in that regard.

As far as liberal dioceses violating canons, you need to be more specific.  If, as I suspect, that the issue is blessing same gender relationships or ordaining lesbians and gays, there is no canon of the church that prohibits either.  If you think there is, you have been mislead.  Please read the canons closely.  There is, however, a canon that prohibits discrimination in the life of the church based on an entire list of issue including sexual orientation.  It is Title III section 2 (page 63 of the most recent edition of the Constitution and Canons).

Whoever it is that is concerned that I am attempting to justify or impress by titles needs to read the entire thread.  I was asked why I signed posts as I did and I explained that it was a requirement on another list.  Since some seem to find it so offensive, I stopped doing so on this list….and yes there was a touch of sarcasm to that remark. 

The issue of doors being slammed in faces of lesbians and gays is not specific to The Episcopal Church.  It is a “universal” issue.  The real issue is whether sexual orientation is inherently a sin is what seems to be at the heart of this.  Unless being heterosexual is inherently sinful, then neither is being homosexual.

Yes there are passages that appear to address same-gender sexual activity but they must be viewed in the context of both the time and place of their writing and the context of the larger body of discussion of which they are a part.  The passages in Leviticus do not individually stand alone.  They are a body of rules that Christians are not required to follow.  There are lots of “odd” rules in there that no one on this list follows.  Just a few examples:  How many of you have stoned disobedient children?  How many have touched a pigskin football…which is forbidden in Leviticus.  How many men have slept in the same bed as their wife during her monthly menstrual cycle, also forbidden by Leviticus.

The Christian Testament writings are all to specific congregations about particular issues they were having.  And if you look closely, much of the problem was not really sexual at all.  It was right relationships and idolatry or something similar.

Most importantly, Jesus makes no mention of same-gender behaviour in any of the four Gospel accounts of His ministry.  Instead, He focused on right relationship or righteousness.  We get close to what that is with our baptismal covenant vows which involve respecting the dignity of every human being and seeking and serving Christ in all persons, loving our neighbor as ourselves.  Jesus was very clear that the first and great commandment was that we love God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength and that we love our neighbor as ourselves. He was equally clear that all the law and the prophets were summed up by those two.  Rabbi Hillel further stated much later of course the same thing, noting that the above was the Torah and all else was commentary.

Life is much easier when everything is cut and dried, black and white, yes and no, either this or that .... in other words when someone else makes all the decisions for us and we just get a list of the do’s and do not’s to follow.  But that doesn’t represent the worship of a creating God.  That simply supports a puppeteer who has already made all the decisions for us.  There is no miracle in such a creation.  The real miracle is the human kind God created with free will.

That probably doesn’t answer all questions and I guarantee it doesn’t satisfy most folks, but it’s where I am and all I have time and energy to write this evening.

Bruce Garner

I did forget one issue:  No one, I repeat no one, signed anything at Dar Es Salaam.  The “vote” was not signatures on a piece of paper.  It is not accurate to say that anyone signed anything and then backed out on it.  There were no signatures. 

And if you investigate, you will also discover that not all of the Primates agreed to the statement.

Further, the most recent statement of the House of Bishops was adjudicated by the Executive Committee of the Primates to have met the requirements of the Communique’.

Bruce Garner

Dear Mr. Garner
Thank you for thoughtfully answering the many questions that have been posed to you on this site.  While I do not agree with your estimation of KJS, I respect your right to your opinion.  I also think you were given a bit of a hard time when you specified your qualifications - afterall, you WERE asked to do that.  However, I do have a question:  Isn’t celibacy a canonical requirement for priests and bishops who are unmarried?

No one, I repeat no one, signed anything at Dar Es Salaam.  The “vote” was not signatures on a piece of paper.  It is not accurate to say that anyone signed anything and then backed out on it.  There were no signatures.

The ABC asked each and every Primate, point blank, if they agreed to the statement.  Schori said she did.  Later, she tried to claim that she only said she’d present the statement to TEC.  But this was not what she was asked by the ABC at DES.

In other words, she weaseled.  Such leadership!

... he most recent statement of the House of Bishops was adjudicated by the Executive Committee of the Primates to have met the requirements of the Communiqué

True; the Committee interpreted the statement to mean a) that no TEC bishop would under any circumstances grant consent to the episcopal election of an openly non-celibate homosexual, and b) no TEC bishop would approve the performance of any rite of SSB in his diocese.

So we are to assume, Bruce, that this is in fact what our Bishops meant, and that they all intend to “live into” this commitment?

What wonderful news!

Most importantly, Jesus makes no mention of same-gender behaviour in any of the four Gospel accounts of His ministry.

Jesus makes no mention of pedophilia in any of the gospels either. Are you sure this is the hermeneutical principle that you want to adopt?

Jesus makes no mention of torture in any of the gospels. . .

Jesus makes no mention of bestiality in any of the gospels. . .

Romans 1 is relatively clear and straightforward in its teaching. Those with homosexual desires commit no sin and are no different from any other of us who wrestle with temptation (and we all do).

But the standard for Christians is clear and straightforward. God intended marriage for a man and a woman. And celibacy/chastity for all those who are not married. After all the smoke, bluster, thunder and tendentious wrangling, it really hasn’t changed.
-RedHatRob

I think I’ll go snort some cocaine.  Jesus never said I shouldn’t.

“no longer NH Episcopalian”  Hit the nail on the head with at least one canon that is being violated.  The discipline and vow of celibacy, of unmarried Priests.  This is not about gays it is about the act of not following the canons and it being ignored on purpose to serve a political purpose, nothing else. Bishops and priest unmarried are to remain celibate if not in the sacrament of marriage and also their are plenty of priest in liberal diocese that are on marriage three or four and still a priest which is a violation of the canons as well, or at least it used to be before 1978. It is also an issue of beieng a penitent Christian. If the bishops and priest are always committing the same sin and are not penitent, then how are they upholding the vow of being a wholesome example to their people.  If sexual behavior outside of the bonds of marriage is going to condoned then lets all start having a good time,pun intended.  It is not that they are gay it is that they are sinning in the act of a sexual partnership outside the sacrament of marriage.  I do not believe that is something any of us want passed down to our kids, that it is not a sin to have sex outside of marriage.  The idea of Saying you have to look at when these where written is a load of bs as well. 

I respect your opinion but I disagree as you can see.

Unless being heterosexual is inherently sinful, then neither is being homosexual.

Neither are inherently sinful.  What you are—the particular set of temptations to which you are particularly susceptible—is never sinful.  What you do, on the other hand, may be.  Homosexual behavior has always been understood to be gravely sinful.

Bruce, your <a >post here</a> simply repeats the same decade-old arguments that have been decisively refuted over and over to the point that no reputable theologian, regardless of his position on SSBs, gay marriage, and the rest, tries to make them any more.  Walter Wink, for example, publicly abandoned them several years ago.

To take just one example:

Most importantly, Jesus makes no mention of same-gender behaviour in any of the four Gospel accounts of His ministry.

This argument has been shown over and over to be even sillier than the shellfish argument (which you also invoke).  What indication is there anywhere that Jesus rejected the Levitical laws relating to sexual behavior?  Indeed, he strengthened them; he taught that their violation would lead to Hell—a much worse fate than mere stoning.  He saved the adulteress from stoning to allow her to repent and save her immortal soul: “Go and sin no more” —which is precisely why changing the teaching of the Church on the basis of “niceness” or “current thinking” is the worst possible idea with respect to homosexuals (or adulterers, or ...)—in the name of social comity, politeness, and minding our own business we are endangering the salvation of our fellow humans—which is in itself one of the gravest of sins.  “Endangering salvation”, though, I’m sure, sounds terribly, terribly Neanderthal, doesn’t it?  That’s something else we need to think about—“How many acts of abject cowardice have been motivated by the fear of appearing insufficiently progressive?”

Over and over we read in the New Testament that Christians must completely eschew all porneia—which, according to the unanimous voice of two thousand years of biblical scholarship, includes all the capital sexual offenses of Lev 20: adultery, incest, homosexuality, and bestiality.  Check out Mt 15:18-20—which, by the way, specifically addresses the shellfish argument vis a vis sexual ethics. 

Frankly, these arguments are intended to convince only those who either already want to believe them very badly, or who know very little about Christian theology and the Bible.  Regrettably, the latter is what the Episcopal Church has been producing for a generation now, and it shows.

We need to be more careful on this, johnnyreb. There is much that is proscribed in Scripture that is not dealt with in the canons. When you make such statements about “not following the canons,” you really should cite the chapter and paragraph in the canons that addresses your particular point. The reappraisers (at least the institutional reappraisers) have elevated canon above scripture. Let us not add to the confusion.

...on leave from the Briar Patch,

So there it is – in the previous 5 posts we get the shorthand version of the disagreement. Bruce, you seem like a very reasonable guy. Without knowing you and only reading your words, you seem both committed and sincere.
Where many of us are un-reconciled is the apparent vengeance TEC is willing to use in order to force your doctrine down the throats of those who disagree. My old parish never voted once on whether to accept this innovation. It was decided for us.
In Christian charity, why can’t you support the right of parishes and dioceses to go their own way in peace? Let the issue be decided amicably within every parish using democratic principles—every member offered the right to vote their conscience in a secret ballot to stay or go?  When the dust settles, both sides will have slavaged their charity and we can get on with the business of our extending our faith and stop expending useless energy fighting.

Bruce - Integrity supports bi-sexuals, transgendered and according to the SF Gay Parade and Bishop Andrus’ participation, polymory and S&M;.  Are you saying you would have no problem with say Patricia Ireland sitting on your vestry or becoming a candidate to the priesthood?  As a reminder she is a practicing bi-sexual who has a husband of quite a few years and a girlfriend of long standing.

If you are a supporter of Integrity and you believe in being inclusive, are you in support of ECUSA supporting Exodus chapters throughout the church at the same level as the support provided to Integrity?

bruce,

No where, for example, is there evidence in either the Hebrew Scriptures or the Christian Testament that God’s Covenant with Israel had been declared invalid.

on the contrary, in Hebrews 8 it is described as obsolete. I should know, I’ve just come out of an exegetical exam where that was one of my texts.

Well I look forward to watching this blob but I am going to go back to sleeper status.  Unless something sets me to typing.  Bruce I look forward to see your Responses. Thank you for at least engaging in blog conversation with us conservatives.  I appreciate you taking the Q&A;from a definite dissenting arena.  Back to sleep for me. JohnnyReb

I think I’ll go snort some cocaine.  Jesus never said I shouldn’t.

My thoughts exactly. @@ Lord have mercy.

Bruce Garner,
Member, Executive Council
Communicant, All Saints’ Parish, Diocese of Atlanta

In the next post:

PS - Note that I sign my name, my real name, my given name, my Christian name to my posts.  I have enough strength of conviction to own what I believe and write.  Apparently others prefer to hide behind pseudo whatevers.  But I’ve raised that issue here before only to have it fall on closed ears.

Then much later after the arrogance has been pointed out:

Whoever it is that is concerned that I am attempting to justify or impress by titles needs to read the entire thread.  I was asked why I signed posts as I did and I explained that it was a requirement on another list.  Since some seem to find it so offensive, I stopped doing so on this list….and yes there was a touch of sarcasm to that remark.

Well, despite your sarcasm, kudos on at least attempting to learn that your titles mean nothing in this forum. Something many in my town and on all side of the issue, from St. John’s in Lafayette Square or The Falls Church (heck throw in National Presbyterian for that measure), could stand to learn. A title is a role to play, it often has little to due with anything else, if you have doubt ask a the opposite party when not in office, they’ll be sure to clarify how a title does not equal intelligence.

For a Christian person to elevate human behavior above Scripture proscription and then redefine it as no longer sinful, for me at least, would require the most grave of tests and scientific evidence. 

Thus, if I am to accept same-sex sex as not sinful, or at least open that thread of discussion in reality, then I need evidence that it is worthy of blessing.  Holy Matrimony was created to celebrate a fertile partnership between a man and a woman capable of reproduction.  In fact, in the Roman Canons today, infertility is actually grounds for an anullment by either party.  This is not new, hundreds of years of study and tradition back these positions.

Therefore, I ask Bruce or anyone holding his positions, not to change what is or is not sinful based on feelings and lifestyle.  To legitimately open this discussion, I need one, single shred of repeatable scientific evidence that shows that sexual preference is hard-wired into an individual.  At that point we can BEGIN to have the discussion as to whether reason has been violated by the current prohibitions.  Feelings are simply insufficient.  What cares God for your feelings?  What are our feelings compared to the Word?

As of yet, this evidence does not exist, indeed much research points in the OPPOSITE direction (i.e. sexual preference changes over time among same-sex partners, especially among females) which weakens the case that same-sex sex is not disordered. 

I would point again to +Matt Kennedy’s delightful arguments about which parts of Jewish Law Jesus’ actions invalidated.  Temple law, yes, even the civil code occasionally, but the moral law, never.  In fact, as has been stated earlier, he RAISED the bar on the Law, forcing them to examine their HEARTS and INTENTIONS, not just their actions. 

Changing these proscriptions to help people feel validated, for whatever reason is a slippery slope.  In addition, it denies the Transformational Power of Christ to bring all to His Will.  Don’t ask me to ride that train, I simply refuse, as should we all.

KTF!....mrb

I did forget one issue:  No one, I repeat no one, signed anything at Dar Es Salaam.  The “vote” was not signatures on a piece of paper.  It is not accurate to say that anyone signed anything and then backed out on it.

To sign or to sign onto is an issue of semantics that should not need to exist in Christian circles! It has been reported via other Primates that each was asked if they accept the document by ++Williams. It is also written “Let your ‘yes’ be ‘yes’ and your ‘no’ be ‘no’ anything else is sin.” Therefore, I do not see where a signature is needed to say on ‘signed onto’ the document. This is word play and should not exist, just as I’ve gotten on the Camp Allen bishops for not using their option to force a vote count, I’ll get on ++KJS for not leaving a record of disagreement, from those who were in the room reported that the ABC individually verified with each Primate, their word should be their bond!

Most importantly, Jesus makes no mention of same-gender behaviour in any of the four Gospel accounts of His ministry.

This is simply not accurate.  Jesus (a) endorsed marriage between man and woman as the model, and (b) taught against sexual immorality (pornea), nearly universally construed in context as including ss behavior.

I find it of interest that since I raised the issue of the canonical violation in which the Bishop of NH is engaged, that Mr. Garner has not responded.  In May of 2007, our governor signed into law civil ceremonies for homosexuals.  My assumption is that the TECs will not address the issue of VGR’s canonical violation until he is “married”.  However, he is not “marrying” his “spouse”, Mark Andrew, until June of 2008.  So, you see, TEC can’t even say “well, if he COULD get married, he WOULD get married.”  However, we will still have from 5/07 - 6/08 when VGR CHOSE “to live in sin” - as it is commonly defined by our secular world.  Of course, narcissistic, self-serving VGR can’t marry until he can make the biggest media “splash” possible - on the fifth anniversary of his illegal election to the bishopric.

Here is Bruce Garner (above) on 11/11 at 10:09 p.m.:

Most importantly, Jesus makes no mention of same-gender behaviour in any of the four Gospel accounts of His ministry.

Today is an excellent day to examine this misperception—a misperception, by the way, which I held for many years. It is an excellent day because the Gospel reading for today (Proper 27, BCP page 992) refutes the notion entirely, when proper exegesis is applied.

From Matthew 15:1―20:

[F]rom the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander. These are what defile you. (Mt 15:19―20a,NLT)

The heart of exegesis begins with the maxim, “What it means is what it meant,” that is, what it means now is what it meant then by the speaker and in the ears of the hearers when it was first said.

First, although the question at hand is one of ritual purity, the list of evils tallies well with the other “sin lists” in the New Testament and with other contemporary Jewish literature. Contemplating sexual immorality has the same effect on a person as contemplating murder. When the thoughts become words, and the words become actions, one has entered into a grave sin.

Secondly, the NLT’s rendering, “all sexual immorality” (“fornications,” in some other versions) is a good attempt at a modern translation of the underlying Greek word porneia. Although the “all” in the translation may be excessive, nevertheless it is an attempt to convey the broad range of sexual misbehavior represented by porneia.

Jesus was speaking directly to Peter here. As a first century Jew he would well understand Jesus’ meaning. If you had asked Peter whether homosexual behavior was included in porneia, he would have said, “Of course!” Jesus would have answered the same way.

In the 60’s, I used my misperception of Jesus’ words to excuse the sexual freedom movement, which I thought at the time to be a capital idea. It wasn’t, and I was wrong. Using a narrow definition of porneia to excuse today’s   cause celebre, “full inclusion for GLBT people” is equally mistaken and equally wrong.

Bruce, I recommend for your reading Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart’s How To Read The Bible For All Its Worth. You will find it to be an excellent layman’s guide to careful Biblical exegesis.

...on leave from the Briar Patch,

Dear Br-er,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response to Mr. Garner.  However, I don’t think he’ll be answering.  I think we done smoked him out!!!!!

Mike Bertaut (or anyone who knows)—where is Matt’s article on temple/ceremonial law?

Thanks,
Pat

Umm, getting back to the topic of this thread: 

Bishop Iker is composing his response, I learned last night at the Common Cause gathering.  Cain’t hardly wait to read that! 

Connie—any idea when it is to be released?

Elves, can you help me on this one? 

I’ve perused the links to articles by +Kennedy but I can’t find the one I’m looking for.  He wrote a specific article (or perhaps quoted one, but I don’t think so) explaining which portions of Jewish Law Jesus respected and enhanced, versus the parts he did not acknowledge.  Anybody remember this one besides me?

thanks!...mrb

Pat, I didn’t ask “when”, but I would guess that it will be in the next week. Also just a guess, maybe AFTER? the Dio FW convention coming up this weekend (Nov 16-17) and the convention has done its work?  Of course, Bp. Duncan released his response before the Dio Pittsburg convention. 

My husband is working, as I type, on the recording of the discussions last night. I hope it will be ready soon—and usable.

Connie—when he is finished will they be posted on this site?  Or is he typing them up for a reason other than to post?

“a question:  Isn’t celibacy a canonical requirement for priests and bishops who are unmarried?”  48 hours since I posed this question to Mr. Bruce Garner - no answer yet.  Oh, he of many words, where are you now?

My humblest apologies for not being so immediately responsive to some of you.  However, I do have a full time job, a part time job and a few other responsibilities.  I am not able to “sit” on my computer all the time to respond in a matter of minutes as some may wish.

I have given the canons a quick look and do not find a canon that requires chasitity among unmarried clergy.  If someone thinks there is one, may I suggest they do a more thorough search than I have done.

There are canons about the property of parishes being held in trust for the diocese and the church.  See I.7.4 and II.6.4 of the most recent additions.  The officers and board members of any non-profit corporation, even the church are required to uphold their fiduciary rsponsibilities, even when doing so may not be pleasant.

For those who are open minded enough to look at other sources, I reccomend the book “Gay Unions” by the Rev’d Gray Temple, retired rector of St. Patrick’s Episcopal Church in Atlanta (our largest charismatic parish).  He provides some scholarly but still accessible material on the subject at hand.

It’s clear to me that I am really not using my time productively trying to share my thoughts with the vast majority on this list.  Even when I respond to direct questions, I am accused of things that I didn’t do (reference the issue of “titles).  I’m not inclined to continue converstations with those who do not converse, but instead choose to belittle and denigrate.  When I respond to a question, I am literally battered with a dozen others, simply because some don’t agree with me.  That’s not conversation, sisters and brothers.

I entered the discussion our of a desire to share my own faith journey with you and to respond to some very obvious misconceptions about issues I know more about than those on this list.  Doing so is apparently a waste of my time and yours.

So let me just close for now by noting that I am very clear on my relationship with God.  Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour.  The Holy Spirit works within my life (I was even going to share a recent very personal event but thought otherwise, lest something so precious to me be ridiculed).  Perhaps someday, all of us will realize that we do not have the right to denigrate or even question another person’s personal relationship with her/his Saviour.  I’m not looking for that to happen any time soon.

I wish you all well and I pray for you.

Bruce Garner

As a post script, I misspelled “chastity” above and apologize for that.

Also know that I will do all in my power to make sure there is a place for each of you at God’s table, regardless of our level of agreement or disagreement or the subject matter.  While I doubt that I can expect reciprocation, please know that I will uphold my promise.

Bruce Garner

“I will do all in my power to make sure there is a place for each of you at God’s table”  how do you know that’s yours to decide????  I, too, have a fulltime and two part time jobs….your sarcasm did not go unnoticed.  So much for “brotherly” love….

Well, the canons don’t require unmarried clergy to be chaste.  Do the canons require unmarried clergy to abstain from immolating children to Moloch?

I’d bet the house the canons don’t forbid arson of a dwelling after dark, either, and since all the Biblical references to arson are in the Old Testament and are about burning over fields, not buildings, I guess Caesar is the only thing stopping ordained episcopal firebugs.
</sarcasm>

Bruce, I have a funny feeling that you and your allies would never tolerate this line of argument about anything except sexuality.

NH Episcopalian—I honestly don’t think Bruce was being sarcastic…
Just sayin’.  Yes it is frustrating when it seems like people don’t answer, but many of us can’t stay online.  He isn’t the only one.  I’ll have to go weeks and I am sure it may look at times as though I was ignoring someone, but it isn’t that.  Just never got back to the thread before it disappeared, or, lol, in my case—forgot which thread I posted on.

Peace,
Pat

Mr Garner, the reason you are “battered with questions” is that, believe it or not, people here really want to understand the reappraiser mindset.  As one of the few reappraisers who post here without trolling (making caustic hit-and-run posts that insult reasserter intelligence and integrity) you are bound to be asked a great many things.  It may feel like an inquisition, but the ultimate aim is knowledge.

We’re constantly being told by reappraisers that we should have a “listening process”.  Well, we’re listening.  But it should be a two-way process.  Why don’t you ask us about our beliefs?

St. Anonymous, he doesn’t really have to, because almost all of you believe what the Episcopal Church believed as far back as the 1930s at least.

Bruce sniffs that he only wanted to

... respond to some very obvious misconceptions about issues I know more about than those on this list.

Umm, OK.  Gee, whatever you say.  Now, where are these misconceptions?  So far you seem to have only presented the same motheaten propaganda lines we’ve dealt with ad nauseam before.  Were they simply a buildup to some astonishing new revelation?  Or is your condescension even more inappropriate—being based on absurd claims backed by transparently tendentious and insubstantial argument—than it at first appears?

The Greek word “porneia” does, indeed, sometimes convey a broad spectrum of sexual misbehaviors. But it also has some decidedly specific meanings. To be sure, we now have somewhat limited access to the full range of Greek literature that was available to those in the ancient world, but what we do possess is more than any one person could read in a lifetime devoted solely to reading through all of the ancient Greek texts and fragments that we possess. I do not know of any reputable Greek scholar—or any serious student of Greek—who would dispute that the word “poneia” was used over and over and over again in hundreds of Greek writings (writings OTHER THAN what we now term the New Testament) to specifically refer to homosexual sexual activity.

It can mean more than this, to be sure. And, at times, it was used in a very broad sense, as a catch-all phrase covering all (or at least most) of the sexual misbehaviors universally condemned in the Greek-speaking ancient world. But there is no way that you could reasonably exclude from this catalogue of sexual misconduct any or all of the known sexual behaviors attributed to homosexuals in both the ancient world or the modern world. When St. Paul employs the term “porneia,” there is absolutely no way that you can somehow understand his phraseology to NOT include homosexual behavior.

I suppose that I should add that while the Greek-speaking world at various times and in various places tolerated a measure of homosexuality, at no time and at no place was it ever officially embraced or affirmed as some kind of “viable alternate life-style.”

There is a modern MYTH about the ancient Greek attitudes towards homosexuality—a myth largely propogated by a line of amateur historians (Mary renault comes to mind right away)—and in this myth homosexual behavior in the ancient Greek-speaking world was held up to be some sort of “ideal” mode of love. Component aspects of this myth include the idea that the Spartans actually encouraged homosexuality among their young men, Thebes once raised a company of homosexual soldiers, and that homosexual relationships between an adolescent boy and an older man was the universal norm in Athens.

Of course, none of this is quite true as it is presented.

The Spartans were the most famously “homophobic” people in the ancient world, and even the most cursory glance at the society brought to its peak by Lycurgus will reveal that the Spartans encouraged deep bonds of friendship and loyalty among their young men, but drew a very clear line in the sand when it came to expressing these emotions sexually.

The Thebans raised a company of “gay soldiers” as a LAST RESORT, when they were at the end of their rope, both militarily and in terms of available manpower. They were about to be annihilated, and this was a last desperate measure—comparable to Hitler sending children out with guns to defend Berlin against the advancing Russians. NOBODY considered it a good idea at the time. And, in fact, as we know from many of the records left by their contemporaries, the Theban “Troop of Companions” was a joke in combat—they were among the very first Theban troops to be totally wiped out in the final battle for Thebes—they were slaughtered, almost to a man—because they turned and tried to flee the battlefield at the first substantial clash of arms.

In Athens, sex between men was an offense punishable by law—death, or, at best, exile. We know of many, many, many instances where homosexuals were successfully prosecuted under the laws of Athens. These laws remained UNCHANGED from the days of Pericles until long after the collapse of the Roman Empire. At NO POINT in history did the people of Athens see fit to change these laws.

Was there a lot of homosexuality going on in the ancient Greek-speaking world? The answer would undoubtedly be yes. Were there vocal and prominent apologists for this particular mode of sexual expression. Again, the answer is yes. Were there some places in the ancient Greek-speaking world where one could go to a temple and have sex with a male temple prostitute, as an act of worshipping the god. Yes, though the only cults that I know of where these things happened were in Ionia (Asiatic Greek cities under the hegemony of, first, the Persians, and, later, the Seleucids.) The REST of the Greek-speaking world (stetching as far west as southern Italy and Sicily) loudly and repeatedly condemned these cults as being decidedly un-Greek and impious.
When Oscar Wilde, who was a first-rate Classicist, employed the phrase “the love that dare not speak its name,” he was NOT coining NEW LANGUAGE for the 19th and/or early 20th centuries; he was transliterating a phrase that was COMMON in the ancient world.

Dear bluenarrative,
I believe you are knowledgeable and your information is correct. But especially since you post under pseudonym, would you please provide us with a reference or link so that we can use this information in our own future conversations with others?

Bruce,

I believe most, if not every person on this board will confirm to you that a person who is a homosexual, bi-sexual, or any other expression sexuality has an equal claim to be a child of God.  We believe that those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior have a seat at His table.  We are all, Bruce sinners, gay, straight, or whatever.

What I, and many here, will disagree with you about is accepting or approving of what the scriptures clearly define as sin.  Just as I believe that an alcoholic, or a heroin abuser has as much claim on our Fathers love and the forgiveness bought for us by Jesus Christ as I do, so I believe about those who are gay.

It is not the sinner that we hate, how could we, for we are all sinners - it is the sin.  The church does not accept hedonism as a legitimate expression of our sexuality.  I know of no church or diocese that has adapted the rites of Dionysus.  The last I heard the church condemns adultery (yes, I know there is the argument to be had about divorce, and there I also come to a conclusion different that your parish priest and bishop).  In the words of the old BCP we are called to “live a godly, righteous, and sober” life – not to be libertines.

It is the nature of the Fall is that we are none of us perfect.  We have fallen away from what God made us and wanted us to be.  Some are lustful, some are gluttonous, some greedy, some slothful.  Some of us have a weakness for alcohol, some for homosexuality.  None of these things are as God intended us to be, This is not how God made man to be, it is the condition we brought upon ourselves by disobedience.  These conditions are certainly nothing we should glory in or celebrate with rites in God’s Holy Church.

Bruce, to sum up, we are all broken, and we all struggle.  The only perfect lamb, Jesus, has called us to repentance.  Let us try to grieve the heart of God no more, let you and I both confess our sins to Him, and both meekly and humbly ask his help to go forth and sin no more.  Though we are doomed to failure together let us strive to be more like the New Adam and less like our fallen selves. 

Radford S. Bunker
Orthodox Anglican
Atlanta, GA

Bluenarrative,
  Thank you for your comments. I would note that my response to Bruce was based on his contention that Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. Bruce must own a red-letter bible. Without taking up the issue that “the whole of the Bible is God’s Word”, let me address this from Bruce’s perspective, and from Matthew 15:19.

First, although the Gospel text is written in Greek, Jesus’s conversation with Peter was probably not in Greek. There is evidence in Patristic tradition that Peter may not have been fully comfortable with the Greek language, although he certainly had to have learned to speak it.
  Jesus was almost certainly speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew. A more complete word study for porneia in this quote would trace it back to the Hebrew/Aramaic word from which it is translated, and look at the range of meaning for the root word.
  Next, we would examine the conversation between the writer of the Gospel and the persons to whom he was writing. The writer of the Gospel of Matthew was almost certainly a Jew, and academic scholarship is in agreement that his intended primary audience was to his fellow Jews. Therefor, to find the range of meaning for porneia in this context we would look at not only the New Testament, but other literature of the Second Temple period written in Greek by Jews to Jews. We do indeed have much of that literature, written from 200 B.C. to A.D. 200.

  Your comments above are very helpful. To further help Mr. Garner in coming to a correct understanding of the letters in red in his Bible, It should not be necessary to address the full range of Greek usage for porneia, but can be more narrowly focused on Jewish usage.

  Thanks again,

...on leave from the Briar Patch,

BlueNarrative—I just had an interesting go-round with Fr Tobias Haller on that very point <a >here</a>; Fr Haller maintains that the term porneia does not include homosexual acts, despite all evidence to the contrary.

One reviewer of a late 19th century biography of Mohammed by the Indian scholar Syed Ameer Ali, a biography which made Herculean efforts to bring Mohammed into conformity with European mores, wrote, “[In this biography, Mohammed] has even been made to set an example of monogamy, but the ingenuity required for this is so great that the result is unconvincing.” 

This expresses exactly my reaction to Fr Haller’s arguments: the ingenuity required to arrive at this conclusion is so great that the result is unconvincing.

Br_er R—a good point.  In the exchange mentioned in my previous post I wrote:

As to porneia: The Greek term is used in LXX to translate zánáh; both words literally mean “harlotry” or “whoring around”. This might give some support to the (long-discredited) “ritual prostitution” argument (which at one time or another both FrJake and Fr Haller have presented) until we notice that in the New Testament the term is used to describe incest, that in second-century Talmudic commentary the term was understood to cover all the capital sexual prohibitions of Lev. 18, and that the Eastern Church, whose native language was Greek, has always understood the term that way (as has—and does—the Church Universal). Kenneth L. Barker, one of the translators of the NIV and Executive Director of the NIV Translation Center wrote in 1995:

According to the standard New Testament Greek lexicon, or dictionary [footnoted as Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, trans., ed., and rev. W. F. Arndt, F. W. Gingrich, and F. W. Danker (Chicago: U. of Chicago, 1979), 693], porneia is used of any and every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse, including prostitution, unchastity, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and, in their words, “the sexual unfaithfulness of a married woman” in the references above [Matt 5:32, 19:9]. We translated it “marital unfaithfulness” so that it could include not only fornication and adultery but also any other kind of unlawful sexual activity, such as homosexual and lesbian practices.

<hr width=40%> Fr Tobias also mentioned that another respected lexicon, TDNT (I have no idea what that stands for), gives the same range of meaning.  So aside from Integrity’s ingenious apologists, there would not seem to be much scholarly support for the exclusion of homosexual behavior from porneia—none at all, in fact.

An easily digested source for much—if not all—of my references can be found in Will Durant’s volume on the ancient Greek-speaking world. He discusses all of these issues at great length and provides comprehensive footnotes and an absolutely thorough bibliography. I am not sure where, exactly, but I am sure you can access most of this online, somehow or somewhere. Any trained librarians want to help me out here?

THANX (porneia)... one of the things I love @ SFIF is the education… I also just found out Hooker never said “3 legged stool” ....  that’s been trotted out so much to equate [wrongly] ‘(human) reason’ and ‘(sociatal) tradition’ with Scriptural authority that I knew Hooker could not have done that….

TDNT: Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. A must-have for the complete library for word studies.

...on leave from the Briar Patch,

Tobias and Integrity torture the language, history, and context of the Bible to get it to say nothing bad about homosexual behavior.

My continuing challenge for these is folks is to show where the Bible says anything positive about homosexual behavior or relationships. Where does the Bible say or suggest that homosexual relationships are to be blessed and sanctified on par and equal to heterosexual matrimony?

So far this challenge has gone unmet, but perhaps a miracle will happen and Tobias or someone else will rise to the challenge.

TDNT (10 volumes) was available from CBD (christianbook.com) last Christmas for $129.  It is currently listed at CBD for $179, but it may go on sale as Christmas nears.  In addition, CBD places ads in various publications (e.g., Books and Culture, Biblical Archaeology Review) at this time of year offering a 10% discount if you quote the code in the ad.  It may be possible to pick up TDNT for a very good price in the next couple of weeks.

I love this place. I just read through this entire thread and found myself LAUGHING OUT LOUD, with tears rolling down my cheeks, as I read some of the comments posted here… After living in Manhattan for most of my adult life—and fighting the “church war” THERE throughout the 80’s and 90’s—I moved out of NYC and somehow sort of thought that in doing so I was leaving some of the loopier expressions behind in Manhattan, in the hands of such fools as Bp. Paul Moore and his ilk. In a sense, I think that, at the time, I imagined that I could move to a more sensible part of the country and just settle down to a more serene mode of Christian living. Boy, was I ever wrong about that! Not quite realizing that the rot in the church was as pervasive as it apparently is, I sort of thought that I could forget about a lot of this stuff and sort of just put a LOT of the nonsense propagated by the revisionists out of my memory and mind… Of course, the “church war” eventually caught up with me again—big time—and here I am…

Bruce is too good to be true. If he were not real, we would have to invent him, I think. 

It has been years since I have remembered things as hideous as the “clown mass.”

I was at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine—the cathedral of the Diocese of New York—once when they performed a voodoo ceremony on the main altar. As the Dean of the Cathedral explained to those in attendance, “Voodoo and Christianity have much in common…” (a true story!) ...I was also at the cathedral once on “Native American Day” when they performed some bizarre pseudo-communion rite which culminated with people approaching the altar, kneeling at the communion rail, and then being individually blessed by a Sioux shaman weilding a big turkey feather… (another true story!)

Just for the record, I have had my legal papers served on me already. Anybody who thinks the PB is not prepared to sue the pants off anybody and everybody who does not toe her gnostic line should talk to ME—I can tell you some true life stories that will make your hair stand on end!

God bless all of those who stand firm for “the faith once and for all handed down to the saints.” We’re in the middle of a conflict that is MUCH bigger than the Episcopal Church…

BillS,

Your challenge is an exceedingly fair one… I see no response to it, however… maybe we should take that challenge onto some of the revisionist web sites…

BillS - all you have to do is go to the Integrity website, and you will find the half-baked theories about Biblical homosexual relationships.  They trot out David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi as their prime examples - stating that the full measure of their relationships were “edited” by the patristic, homophobic, culture-bound “authors” of the Scriptures.  Ask for anything more, and the crickets will keep chirping.

Just as I believe that an alcoholic, or a heroin abuser has as much claim on our Fathers love and the forgiveness bought for us by Jesus Christ as I do, so I believe about those who are gay..

RSBunker wrote above….yet even that may sound extreme.  I think you (RSB) would agree that so do the gossips, liars, slanderers and adulterers have as much claim on the Father’s love.  IOW, we don’t even have to go to the extreme of using heroin, we just have to be sinful human beings.  Of which I believe we all qualify.

TDNTa = Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (abridged).
1 volume $59 from Amazon. All you will ever need—unless you are preparing your doctoral dissertation. It has all the same words as the multivolume set, but does not covver as many citations from ancient sources.

...on leave from the Briar Patch,

I suppose saving a few dollars is not a bad thing, in and of itself. But, on balance, I prefer having as many citations as possible. If I am ever in the market for any sort of dictionary—any language—then I am invariably looking for the one that contains the MOST and the MOST COMPREHENSIVE information.

I understand that the one volume “Little Kittle” does not contain nonbiblical citations, e.g., classical references.  I don’t know; I don’t own either one.  I have been waiting for the price to bottom out, but it now looks like it is going the other way.

bluenarrative, I share your desire for the most information I can get. But for my grad thesis I had a lot of books to buy and limited bookshelf space in my 9 by 12 rented room ($600/mo) in Orange County, CA. I was satisfied with the results, and so were my professors. On the other hand, If my thesis on Jude had needed to delve deeper into classical references, it might have been another story. As it is, the claimed references to classical Greek mythology in Jude have been dismissed by most academics as hogwash (oops, non-academic descriptor).

...on leave from the Briar Patch,

Again SFIF post’ers THANKS for the TDNT info.

Two days ago (my, what an active thread THIS has been), NH Episcopalian posed the following question:

However, I do have a question:  Isn’t celibacy a canonical requirement for priests and bishops who are unmarried?

The Constitution and Canons of TEC are available on the web and I commend them to all those who are seriously concerned about the state of the church. If you are serious about your obligations as a citizen, you should study the US Constitution. If you are serious about your obligations as a Christian who is part of TEC, you should study the Constitution and Canons of TEC.

See here: EpiscopalArchives.org - ONE large .pdf
or here:
CPI - the official publisher of GCEC - this site has each title as a separate .pdf

There has been no need to spell out chastity as a canonical requirement for bishops and priests, but it is certainly covered by the Canons of the Church. Here is what Title IV, Canon 1 says:

ECCLESIASTICAL DISCIPLINE
CANON 1: Of Offenses for Which Bishops, Priests, or Deacons May Be Presented and Tried, and Of Inhibitions
Sec. 1. A Bishop, Priest, or Deacon of this Church shall be liable to Presentment and Trial for the following offenses, viz.:
(a) Crime.
(b) Immorality.
(c) Holding and teaching publicly or privately, and advisedly, any doctrine contrary to that held by this Church.
(d) Violation of the Rubrics of the Book of Common Prayer.
(e) Violation of the Constitution or Canons of the General Convention.
(f) Violation of the Constitution or Canons of the Diocese in which the person is canonically resident.
(g) Violation of the Constitution or Canons of a Diocese of this Church wherein the person may have been located temporarily.
(h) Any act which involves a violation of ordination vows.
[. . .]
(i) Habitual neglect of the exercise of the Ministerial Office, without cause; or habitual neglect of Public Worship, and of the Holy Communion, according to the order and use of this Church.
(j) Conduct Unbecoming a Member of the Clergy.

No one over the past 1700 years would have imagined that the prohibition of “immorality” meant anything other than an obligation of chastity and celibacy for unmarried clergy.

What SHOULD be happening in cases of immorality by bishops and clergy is ecclesiastical discipline. “Partnered priests” are an open scandal and a violation of Title IV, Canon 1(b) and Canon 1(j).

-RedHatRob

Ah but Red Hat Bob - there’s the rub… you need to find the right folks for present and then the right folks to convict let alone ‘define’ “Immorality” and “Conduct unbecomming.” IMPOSSIBLE in today’s TEC. SO00oo..
regardless of scripture, or integrity, or morality, or how it looks…. what can we get away with!

Whoops: present = presentment above.. One more thing I can’t resist - tired and snarky… many of us have come to WO as of no issue any longer. ??? Does +KJS make you rethink this ???

DaveB—While I’m opposed to WO, and while I’ve been married long enough to know that there is a certain sort of ruthlessness which seems to come more easily to women than to men (on the average, bell curves, etc.), I have to say that Mrs. Schori is hardly representative of the ordained women I’ve met, nearly all of whom have been at least the equal of any male in intelligence and generally superior in pastoral insight and sensitivity.

Clearly Mrs. Schori’s personality can only be described in pathological terms, but the same is unfortunately true of a number of male TEC bishops and priests.

Craig, perhaps this is a hidden requirement for the job lately?

I was at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine—the cathedral of the Diocese of New York—once when they performed a voodoo ceremony on the main altar. As the Dean of the Cathedral explained to those in attendance, “Voodoo and Christianity have much in common…” (a true story!) ...I was also at the cathedral once on “Native American Day” when they performed some bizarre pseudo-communion rite which culminated with people approaching the altar, kneeling at the communion rail, and then being individually blessed by a Sioux shaman weilding a big turkey feather…

This is worse than my experience at Christ Church in Norcross GA where they baptized a baby in a crystal punch bowl (full immersion @@), slung Holy Water over the whole congregation and told the children, in the Children’s Sermon, that WE as a congregation sanctified the Holy Water. This was my last visit to the TEC and I couldn’t get out of there fast enough. The ELCA (where I attend now) may be “liturgy challenged” but I’ve never seen such antics there. Such are the affairs in the Diocese of Atlanta. :-( Kyrie Eleison.

WE as a congregation sanctified the Holy Water.

In what bizarre ways this hierarchical church of ours twists and yearns to be congregational….

WE as a congregation sanctified the Holy Water.

In what bizarre ways this hierarchical church of ours twists and yearns to be congregational….

I was alarmed by the fact that the Rector said that WE as a congregation sanctified the Holy Water. We can’t do that ony Jesus does that.

I know. I added my own tangent, sorry.

I get the feeling that more and more in TEC believe that everything holy is something *we* do instead of God.

I get the feeling that more and more in TEC believe that everything holy is something *we* do instead of God.

You are totally correct. :-( Sad to say.

Red Hat Rob
Thanks so much for your wonderful explanation about celibacy.  Despite Bruce G and his sarcasm (he was pitching in regularly on the site until I posed the question, then took great offense when I noted it took him two days to respond), I knew I was correct on the issue.  BTW - I have found when I ask the TECkies a very pertinent question it shuts them up faster that you know what running through a goose.  Also, bluenarrative - I was once at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine - it was Ash Wednesday, 2004, when I was still feeling very lonely post VGR’s election.  Your description made me laugh out loud - after my visit, I wrote an essay “The Magnificent and the Moldy”. I think even the title says a lot.  I don’t need to go back again.  Particularly since they rented it out to Elton John for his birthday party.