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‘She Speaks from a Very Deep Place’

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 • 9:05 am


Yeah, I’m not even touching that one.

Anxiety crept into the priest’s voice as he addressed the leader of his unsettled church.

Was she finding a way to bridge the widening rifts in the Episcopal Church and its parent Anglican Communion? he asked. Or was it an impasse?

Standing recently in the airy sanctuary of a small San Jose church, the Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori was direct, her low voice calm, as she offered her own, more nuanced view to the priests and lay leaders before her.

“I’m not sure it is a stalemate,” she said. “I think this church and others may just be becoming clearer about who they are.”

And she reminded her audience that small groups of believers had previously left both the Episcopal Church and the global Anglican fellowship, and both entities survived.

Perhaps, Jefferts Schori said, if all sides in the current debate over sexuality and Scripture could “hold their truths more lightly,” they might yet find a way forward—together.


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Comments:

Perhaps, Jefferts Schori said, if all sides in the current debate over sexuality and Scripture could “hold their truths more lightly,” they might yet find a way forward—together.

Hence the problem. Let’s see what happens if we asked her to hold her truths (LGBT and litigation) more lightly so that we could find a way forward.

The end result would be a crushing thud on our heads.

[1] Posted by CenTex Priest on 11-20-2007 at 10:19 AM • top

The money quote for me is “Jefferts Schori said, if all sides in the current debate over sexuality and Scripture could ‘hold their truths more lightly’”.

I’m afraid I can never compromise over what is true. Never. I can ‘agree to disagree’. I am willing to listen, to be shown that I am in error. If the truth that I know is not one of core belief, I can go along for a while with someone who is inerror about it. But I can never ‘hold a truith lightly’.

I’m afraid I’m an absolutist and not a relativist. I can not compromise the truth. I can not deny the Truth.

I have a blog thingy

[2] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 11-20-2007 at 10:19 AM • top

So what your PB is calling for is mutual agreement that sodomy may be right or it may be wrong, but that the question is not important.

[3] Posted by Ed the Roman on 11-20-2007 at 10:27 AM • top

“She speaks from a very deep place,” said Valerie Valle, a priest from Arroyo Grande near San Luis Obispo.

Well, obviously it ain’t from “deep in the heart of Texas.” Heh.

Question: How do you hold the truth “lightly”? There is no such thing as Truth Lite. Something is either true or it isn’t.

snarkimus maximus

[4] Posted by the snarkster on 11-20-2007 at 10:28 AM • top

Two thoughts:

1) My brother worked for one of the Big Three automakers for a time.  He said that many meetings consisted of leaders telling each other, “Be reasonable—do it MY way…”

2) I just keep coming back to Gen. 3:1—“Did God really say…?”

[5] Posted by AnglicanXn on 11-20-2007 at 10:47 AM • top

Hmmmmm…..
Reconciliation?

OK, KJS-
1) Immediately drop the lawsuits
2) Adhere to Lambeth 1.10 as the standard of teaching withing the Communion
3) Refuse to consent to the election of non-celibate gay bishops
4) Refuse to allow same sex marriages or blessings of other same sex unions, civil or otherwise.
5) Nominate your 2 members to the Pastoral Council

IF these things are not done, it is clear to the world that you are not interested in reconciliation.  The path is before you.  Take it or walk your own.

[6] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-20-2007 at 10:50 AM • top

Even if there were such a thing as Truth Lite, I ain’t buying.

[7] Posted by Newbie Anglican on 11-20-2007 at 10:53 AM • top

Is it possible that when Jesus said “Feed the hungry,” that He did not mean give them food?

If the Bible says, “Feed the hungry,” why is it that it is not a book on how to prepare and transport food?

If Jesus wanted his disciples to “Feed the hungry,” why did he not send them out with wheel barrows full of food, but instead sent them out empty handed?

What is it that the people are hungry for?  Is it water from a well, or living water that the world needs that will quench its hunger and thirst forever?

Neither Jesus nor His disciples cured all the lepers, the blind, the lame, the poor, nor the hungry.  He did not cure self indulgence, nor promote homosexuality as a way to cope with self indulgence.

Jesus did provide the bread of life or the “Good News,” that since one Man has obeyed the Word, and has now been resurrected, that we all have the opportunity for peace of mind in whatever condition we are in, because fairness and justice will also be our reward in an eternal afterlife in heaven.

That is what MDG should be about, not food.

[8] Posted by MasterServer on 11-20-2007 at 10:53 AM • top

The most surprising revelation to me was this:

“wearing the sunrise-hued vestments of her own investiture”

I had always assumed, from the photos of the vestments in question, that it was a Lake of Fire motif ...

[9] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 11-20-2007 at 10:54 AM • top

she offered her own, more nuanced view to the priests and lay leaders before her

Feh, nuance schmuance. Sophistry by any other name is sophistry still.

[10] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 11-20-2007 at 11:07 AM • top

I believe that one must put on one’s hip boots to go to the deep place.

[11] Posted by William Witt on 11-20-2007 at 11:07 AM • top

Send disciples, not food!

[12] Posted by MasterServer on 11-20-2007 at 11:11 AM • top

And dig the headline

Episcopal leader seeks to mend church rift

Oh, THAT’S what she’s trying to do - I sure was confused with all the lawsuits and threats and stuff.  I’m glad we got that straightened out…

[13] Posted by GillianC on 11-20-2007 at 11:12 AM • top

William, I heard that the rubber apron needed to extend as far up as the lower lip.

...on leave from the Briar Patch,

[14] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 11-20-2007 at 11:15 AM • top

There it is again, the TEC “faithful” are repeating the buzzwords back at the leaders:  “deep place” = “deep understanding”.  Yep…as deep as the Mariana Trench.  Dark, cold and nearly lifeless.

[15] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 11-20-2007 at 11:17 AM • top

Gillian, wouldn’t it be nice if someone in the media noticed that she hasn’t done one single thing to try to “heal the rift” or “reconcile” the church??? That instead her notion of reconciliation is to take everyone to court and her concept of the broadness of TEC is that everyone can believe what they want, as long as they believe what she believes.

[16] Posted by oscewicee on 11-20-2007 at 11:21 AM • top

Every time this woman speaks she reveals even more her shallowness of thought to the world.  Her’s is the liberal line of politics, of religion, and of social consciousness that this country is wallowing in these days.  Agree with me, compromise your beliefs, stand against the truth as you now know it.  Only then, she and her ilk believes, will everyone be able to get along.  I’m thankful for forums like this where her unGodly words come to the fore.  Because her lies are surely not being refuted where they should matter most; from the pulpit to the people in the pews.

[17] Posted by appletree on 11-20-2007 at 11:23 AM • top

Is the humor column going to be a regular feature of Standfirm ? I know I have asked this before, but I really would like some clarification.  I lost almost a whole cup of tea.  Advanced warning would be much appreciated.

It is not that I hold my beliefs about sexuality so tightly. It is just that I hold my beliefs about God so tightly.  If I loosen the one the other falls kerplop as well.  Can’t have that, can we.

[18] Posted by Paula Loughlin on 11-20-2007 at 11:25 AM • top

Dante shared some of those “very deep places” with us.

[19] Posted by phil swain on 11-20-2007 at 11:34 AM • top

JESUS CHRIST IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE.  NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY HIM.

I will hold that truth as lightly as the hammering that was done to drive the nails into my Saviour’s hands and feet . . . as lightly as the pressure that it took to push the crown of thorns into His sacred head.

If Kate’s truths are so irrelevant and fleeting that she can “hold them lightly,” then she doesn’t understand Truth . . . or the healing, transforming benefits of Truth . . . or the sacrifice required to win a hurting world to the Truth it needs so desperately . . . or the eternal consequences of not proclaiming the Truth.

But, what else is new?

[20] Posted by Eddie Swain on 11-20-2007 at 11:36 AM • top

‘She Speaks from a Very Deep Place’

Yeah, I’m not even touching that one.

Greg, I’m so very glad I’m not the only one whose mind went there… raspberry

[21] Posted by st. anonymous on 11-20-2007 at 11:46 AM • top

Jesus did provide the bread of life or the “Good News,” that since one Man has obeyed the Word, and has now been resurrected, that we all have the opportunity for peace of mind in whatever condition we are in, because fairness and justice will also be our reward in an eternal afterlife in heaven.

That is what MDG should be about, not food.

I must say, I’d be pretty impressed if you could get the UN to go along with that one. I guess that’s the difference between a church and an NGO. Both good, but their work is different. And, for those of us who forget in the midst of such blatant horrors around the world, the Church’s work is more important. Only as a result of the church’s eschatologically significant work can real and lasting social improvement be accomplished.

[22] Posted by JonC on 11-20-2007 at 11:55 AM • top

And mine as well, St. Anononymous.

[23] Posted by evan miller on 11-20-2007 at 11:57 AM • top

“A very deep place”—possibly Milton’s Abyss. If she can’t find the words to present Jesus as “the way, the truth, and the light” for all the people of the world, then does she know Christ in his essential mission? And since she is vigorously pushing some mission, is it the Subtle Sinister Substitute (“Hath God said….?).

[24] Posted by Gator on 11-20-2007 at 12:03 PM • top

Hmm…this reminds me of something:

She’s slippy
Your’re sliding down
She’ll be there when you hit the ground

It’s alright, it’s alright, alright
She speaks from a Very Deep Place
It’s alright, it’s alright, alright
She thinks in mysterious ways
Ah…ah…ah…

Sorry U2

wink

[25] Posted by tired on 11-20-2007 at 12:10 PM • top

There is a very condemnatory essay on the lostness of the episcopal church at Anglicans Ablaze referenced at T19 (with the comments closed, an annoyingly more common occurence).

Truth to place second fiddle to unity. That strategy promises to be short lived.

[26] Posted by robroy on 11-20-2007 at 12:14 PM • top

I have a “deep place” in my backyard. It’s where the septic tank is buried.

snarko magnifico

[27] Posted by the snarkster on 11-20-2007 at 12:14 PM • top

Snarksworth: 

TRUTH LITE.

Hilarious. That is surely the bon mot of the day, maybe the week. Thus, you are declared the recipient of the highly sought after Middle Finger Hoist Them On Their Own Petard Award for Really Funny Comments By Deranged Posters Who Cast Aspersions On Sanctimoniously Nuanced Presiding Bishops Who Speak From Deep Places Like Pot Holes.  Congratulations!

We await further Snarkerly brilliance.

Teddy

[28] Posted by teddy mak on 11-20-2007 at 12:16 PM • top

Episcopal leader seeks to mend church rift

No, that’s “Episcopal leader seeks to rend church miffed.”

[29] Posted by Ed the Roman on 11-20-2007 at 12:20 PM • top

I’m not so sure the continual use of “deep place” and “deep” is all so accidental.  In Gnosticism, the ill-defined deity is known as the “Deep” or the “Abyss”—the “Pleroma.”  This is not the only Gnostic element in the syncretism of the PB and those like her.

[30] Posted by VaAnglican on 11-20-2007 at 12:44 PM • top

” She (KJS) listens to everything that’s said, then goes deep.”

Yeah….......to receive a pass from Satan.

[31] Posted by irishanglican on 11-20-2007 at 12:44 PM • top

robroy, OT, but I saw that “comments closed” one time too many a few months ago and haven’t been back to T19 since.

[32] Posted by CarolynP on 11-20-2007 at 12:46 PM • top

robroy, OT, but I saw that “comments closed” one time too many a few months ago and haven’t been back to T19 since.

In defense of Kendall, comments are not totally closed. Just put your comment in an email (as instructed) and send it Kendall. He does that sometimes in order to moderate comments about postings that tend to bring out the worst on both sides. I don’t particularly like it but I can certainly see why he does it.

the snarkster

[33] Posted by the snarkster on 11-20-2007 at 12:55 PM • top

“if all sides in the current debate over sexuality and Scripture could “hold their truths more lightly,” they might yet find a way forward—”
I wonder if the PBess has, as of yet, asked Mss. Russell, Kaeton and Crew to “hold their truths more lightly.”  She couldn’t have, now that I think of it: She still has her head on her shoulders.

[34] Posted by The Pilgrim on 11-20-2007 at 01:02 PM • top

That instead her notion of reconciliation is to take everyone to court and her concept of the broadness of TEC is that everyone can believe what they want, as long as they believe what she believes.

Come on now, be fair.  She will let us believe whatever we want as long as we keep quiet about it, pay our tithes and write the trust funds into our wills, and let her disregard Scripture, tradition and reason (and Primates, and Creeds, and the BCP).

[35] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-20-2007 at 01:09 PM • top

Robroy and CarolynP,

Or you could comment at the original poster’s blog. Comments are wide open over there.

I have a blog thingy

[36] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 11-20-2007 at 01:11 PM • top

Somebody really needs to put together a Piskie news release bot.  This is such a target-rich environment.

[37] Posted by Jeffersonian on 11-20-2007 at 01:17 PM • top

tjmcmahon,

Please add to your “as long as” additions the following:
— interpret and use the constitution and canons of TEC as she sees fit without any checks and balances whatsoever
—let her and her chancellor litigate the living daylights out of any orthodox that dares to even merely be
—allow some of the shepherds in TEC obfuscate, procrastinate, mislead, and waffle all over creation, again, without any checks and balances whatsoever

[38] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 11-20-2007 at 01:19 PM • top

tjmacmahon, you’re right. I wasn’t quite fair. You were much more fair. :-(

[39] Posted by oscewicee on 11-20-2007 at 01:21 PM • top

Did you notice +KJS is going to write Bishop Iker a SECOND letter?  Is this coming from the deep place - the Abyess AKA the Lake of Fire?

[40] Posted by Josip on 11-20-2007 at 01:42 PM • top

Josip - she is sending a second letter - but not to Iker (no way she could follow his response!)

Jefferts Schori said she planned to send a second letter of warning to Schofield before the convention and still hoped to change his mind

[41] Posted by GillianC on 11-20-2007 at 01:55 PM • top

Re: the “second letter” (I think it will go to +Schofield, rather than +Iker, although he is no doubt on the second letter list as well.  I wonder if one also went to +Ackerman prior to his convention.  Of course, his constitution was already amended 15 or 20 years ago, if I recall correctly, so he was probably already on double secret probation)

Is it just me, or does anyone else see a certain parallel between 815’s current pursuit of the orthodox who are leaving and the pharoh chasing the people of Israel across the momentarily dry Red Sea?  Pursuit of the fleeing faithful in an attempt to destroy them did not work out very well.

[42] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-20-2007 at 02:10 PM • top

Not a very scientific quote.  I assume she meant suspend belief that their are truths.  Not a very religous quote either come to think of it.  Why didn’t she just get into politics - at least you can be nasty there and not seem out of place.  Perhaps she still has time for a third career.  Someone posted recently that she is paid $1 million a year - is that actually true?

[43] Posted by chips on 11-20-2007 at 02:19 PM • top

Maybe all we need to do is to hold our polities lightly? But is that even legal in public?

I have a blog thingy

[44] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 11-20-2007 at 02:21 PM • top

KJS?  We Aren’t Leaving.  Southern Cone, last I checked, is still in communion with Canterbury.

[45] Posted by Kate S on 11-20-2007 at 02:36 PM • top

William Witt wrote:

I believe that one must put on one’s hip boots to go to the deep place.

Do I remember correctly? Isn’t the deep place where the ordure is piled? Or is that offal of me to ask?

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist
One of the punnier people you’ve never met. (© 2007, Σμαρτασσ, Υνλτδ)

P.S. Groaning is permitted and will not only not distress the punner, but will actually be taken as a sign of efficacy.

[46] Posted by Militaris Artifex on 11-20-2007 at 03:33 PM • top

Is there a way to have a media sheet of the PB statements that are contradictory, disingenuous, or newspeak available to give to major newspapers or reporters so that they are up to speed with her remarks and can then ask her pointed questions?

[47] Posted by Forever Anglican on 11-20-2007 at 03:37 PM • top

Moving from pun to metaphor, notice that for her truth is something to hold in one’s hand, while for the orthodox it is the firm ground on which we stand.

[48] Posted by Deja Vu on 11-20-2007 at 03:37 PM • top

Σμαρτασσ

Martial Artist, I’m glad I remember my Greek alphabet. wink

[49] Posted by oscewicee on 11-20-2007 at 03:39 PM • top

I’m confused.  How does one ‘hold truth lightly’ that was in some instances delivered by angels, and in all instances stained by martyrs’ blood?

Truth Lite*
  Great Taste!
  Less Filling!

  (She may be on (to) something.)

  Two lessons I took away from a California pastorate:

  1.  Don’t put the kid with Torettes in the front row of
              the church choir.

    2.  Let someone talk long enough….they’ll invariably
        name the baby.

[50] Posted by anglicanlutenist on 11-20-2007 at 04:10 PM • top

Man, is that rich! The article not only describes her in the most positive terms, it also allows her to portray herself as a moderate (!) without any view to the contrary.

If KJS is a moderate, then the down is up, up is down, and veritable herds of swine have just taken to the air.

It just steams me that she would even dare to claim such a thing. Its an affront to true moderates, like yours truly, everywhere.

[51] Posted by StayinAnglican on 11-20-2007 at 04:20 PM • top

PS.

And….. she has the nerve to act like the issue is already settled with the moderate middle of the TEC, that all is well, and its just the extremists (not her) on either end of the spectrum that are causing the trouble.

Yearrrrrgh!

*vent over*

[52] Posted by StayinAnglican on 11-20-2007 at 04:22 PM • top

StayinAnglican, I think this site will help you stay in touch with the modern Episco-speak.

Please note, that site is not mine.

Mine is much more dolphin-like
I have a blog thingy

[53] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 11-20-2007 at 04:30 PM • top

It doesn’t matter what you believe, as long as you’re sincere!  And this is the most sincere looking pumpkin patch in the whole wide world! (Linus: It’s the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown)

I expect this will be their next theological gem.  Or have we already heard this one?

KTF!...mrb

[54] Posted by Michael Bertaut on 11-20-2007 at 04:50 PM • top

Σμαρτασσ
OK, I can copy and paste it, but how in the world does one write in “Greek” in HTML.  Somebody, please email me the instructions for this before the commenatrix finds her Greek alphabet.  (lets see, that would be rho-omicron-tau-phi (close as I can get to F)-lambda-mu-alpha-omicron- or something like that, right?)

[55] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-20-2007 at 05:58 PM • top

In Greek: Σμαρτασσ

In Geek: smRt@$$.

[56] Posted by st. anonymous on 11-20-2007 at 07:52 PM • top

Schori’s “nuanced views” come from the same deep place as Griswold’s “pluriform truths” (oh, how I miss Gris-speak!). 

Where I came from, the “deep place” was the one where the sun don’t shine.  (Is that what you didn’t want to touch, Greg?)

This whole thing is really quite incredible.  Reminds me so much of 1984.  Truth certainly is the victim of the 815 spin parade.

[57] Posted by hanks on 11-20-2007 at 08:50 PM • top

“She speaks from a very deep place,” said Valerie Valle, a priest from Arroyo Grande near San Luis Obispo

Perhaps it is from that “very deep place” whence funds come, for raining down litigation, and bankrolling the ACC and Lambeth ‘08.  And when she “speaks” from that “very deep place,” she expects everyone to stop and listen, as if she were E.F. Hutton.

[58] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 11-20-2007 at 09:52 PM • top

Very deep place ............ Labyrinth’s pit of eternal stench.
AP+

[59] Posted by Anglican Paplist on 11-20-2007 at 11:16 PM • top

tjmcmahon,

I have sent you brief instructions in a Private Message as to how I did it. Please feel free to pass it on to anyone else who asks.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[60] Posted by Militaris Artifex on 11-20-2007 at 11:29 PM • top

Frank Griswold used to want to take us to a “deep place” too.  Only it was dark down there—and hot, very hot…

[61] Posted by ToAllTheWorld on 11-21-2007 at 01:33 AM • top

Perhaps, Jefferts Schori said, if all sides in the current debate over sexuality and Scripture could “hold their truths more lightly,” they might yet find a way forward—together.

Is that anything like holding your manhood cheap if you didn’t fight on St. Crispin’s Day?

[62] Posted by Anam Cara on 11-21-2007 at 06:38 AM • top

Σμαρτασσ, Υνλτδ

Okay, I give up.  Σμαρτασσ  seems to be a form of the word meaning “myself”

but Υνλτδ  has no vowels!

[63] Posted by Anam Cara on 11-21-2007 at 07:01 AM • top

Υνλτδ =‘Unltd’ as in Unlimited?

[64] Posted by carl on 11-21-2007 at 08:32 AM • top

μα: λΟλ!

2/3*(pun)

[65] Posted by tired on 11-21-2007 at 08:50 AM • top

Anam Cara,

Don’t attempt to translate it, rather transliterate it, i.e., replace the Greek letters with their phonetically equivalent roman characters, preserving capitalization.

Secondarily, the last time I checked, upsilon (Υ) was a vowel. Also, the English abbreviations Ltd. (“Limited” as in limited liability corporation) and Unltd. (the logical extension of “Ltd.”) have only one (1) vowel between them, namely “U” which is essentially the phonetic equivalent of the Greek upsilon.

carl,

That is correct.

tired,

Thank you for your expression of appreciation for the humor.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[66] Posted by Militaris Artifex on 11-21-2007 at 11:03 AM • top

I get it now!
Thanks all!

[67] Posted by Anam Cara on 11-21-2007 at 01:40 PM • top

When I was “in the world” I searched for truths to help me understand life.  Then the Truth has found me, and I have life. Holding my own truths, I was judging those truths by my confusion:  Now the Truth is holding me, and the confusion is judged, and crucified. 

There is only one Truth, and any other “truths” stand or fall by how they deal with Him.  What can be simpler?

Robert

[68] Posted by Robert Easter on 11-23-2007 at 08:49 AM • top

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