Presiding Bishop:  “I Ordered U-Turn on Deal.”

No surprise here… such honor you have Kate. What a role model for my children. Waging more reconciliation no doubt.
Intercessor

Please, please massa ++Kate. Don’t reconcile me no more. I swears I’ll be good.

doctor snarkenstein

Bricks with no straw eh,P.B. Schori?

“At the Primates meeting in Dar es Salaam in February, Bishop Schori endorsed the communiqué which called upon the US Church to cease litigation with traditionalist breakaway groups, and seek reconciliation.

However, in her deposition, Bishop Schori said the Primates’ communiqué was not binding upon the American Church”.

Looks like duplicity and doublespeak to me…

US Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori stated she had directed the Diocese of Virginia to sue the clergy and lay leaders of 11 congregations after they had quit the Episcopal Church for the Churches of Nigerian and Uganda.

This is the same pb who told us she doesn’t have power over the dioceses and that therefore there was no need for alternative primatial oversight? Right? Is the truth in her?

Repulsive!  A woman without honour.

This is freaking amazing!

Is somebody writing all this stuff down???

“Is somebody writing all this stuff down???”

Yes, indeed! Someone upstairs is writing ALL of it down.  Would love to hear her explanation to the
Almighty come Judgement Day.

Where’s the canon, PB, that gives you such authority?
Show us the canon.
Or was it that flying monkey with the attache case that Lee saw?
Show us the canon.
Showed +Lee the canon, did you?
Show us the canon.
Beers couldn’t specify such a canon under oath, could he?
Show us the canon.

Does anyone know if her testimony (which I understand was on videotape) is available for us to view?

or failing that a complete transcript

Could someone explain what made +Lee respect such an order?  Is it likely that he was threatened with some consequence or what?

Right, Miata. The PB’s directive is perhaps no surprise. That a sitting Diocesan should pay it the slightest heed is astounding.

...on leave from the Briar Patch,

I don’t believe that Jefferts Schori has any authority to make such an order, and Lee had no obligation to obey it.

Think if Jefferts Schori had ordered Steenson or Stanton or Duncan the same thing.  Would they acquiesce the same way Lee did?

Lee’s actions are his own, and cannot be passed upstairs.  The buck stops at the Bishop.

Dear Intercessor,
Yes, she is a role model for our children—of a wolf instead of shepherd, of someone who is dishonorable in their words and deeds.
Yes, indeed, she is someone to hold up to our children as an example of unchristian actions and words.  Our children need to learn how to discern “snakes”, false prophets, and deceivers.
Jane, Edwin’s wife

I agree with Randy. She is not the Pope. She has no direct authority over thd diocesan bishops unless a charge is filed by other bishops. +Lee is responsible for his own diocese. Either he really enjoyed doing this and wanted to do this and let her take the blame or he really thinks she is in charge of him and his diocese. Has anyone besides Bishops Iker, Schofield, and Duncan noticed that she and maybe the Executive Council are giving to themselves more and more authority and power than the canons even state. She thinks she is an Archbishop or higher.

But, she does have enough bishops in her pocket to vote for a presentment, and make life miserable, if not unbearable for any bishop.

Then on to the trial, etc. etc.  She personally has no power, but most certainly has the politico bishops on her side who will do ANYTHING she asks for, or find themselves on the other end of her wrath.

Of course +Lee was threatened, whether out loud, or just made aware of the “facts”.... 

This my friends is exactly what she was elected for.

Grannie Gloria

This my friends is exactly what she was elected for

- the fact that she doesn’t have a conscience.

I had heard a story about her trampling the last wishes of someone very close to her. I didn’t want to believe it. But it certainly fits.

Pardon me but re: dwstroudmd post above..

Show us the canon….
SHOW us the canon…
SHOW US THE CANON!////

...... Oh that kind of cannon.

Prior to GC 2006, one of our prayers was for clarity. We are still receiving answers to that prayer:

- KJS’s duplicity and strong-arm tactics.

- Bp Lee’s unmasking as not the grand reconciler but as someone willing to suddenly turn from negotiation to litigation.

- John Howe’s appearing to cling to two irreconcilable paths.

- Rowan’s continual dithering, murkiness and obfuscation showing that he cannot be counted on by orthodox Anglicans.

- The strong support of GS primates and bishops in both word and deed.

- the manipulative PR from Kearon and the Anglican Communion Office.

- the strong defense of the both the faith once delivered and the faithful flocks by Duncan, Iker, etc.

- the strange attitudes of the ACI writers who appear to think that TEC can be convinced to turn back from the precipice.

- the continuing progress toward cooperation and coordination among the various foreign missionary groups, the REC etc.

Although some of these may appear ambiguous, even their steady ambiguity is clarification. The general continuing thrust is greater clarity about the need to find an exit path (unless specifically called to stay as a witness) - an exit path that can lead away from what is ever-more clearly standing out as a non-Christian political power movement masquerading as a branch of Christianity, an exit path toward connections, plans, etc., where the Great Commission and the Great Commandment can be lived out faithfully.

“Bricks with no straw eh, P.B. Schori?”—-Paddy

Don’t forget the part about flogging us with scorpions (1 Kings 12:11). She won’t.

BILL COOL:  You have got it right!

She is not the Pope.

In oh, so many, many ways. 

Is there a Canon of Dishonorable Discharge for a presiding bishop?

I seem to hear, “Oh, I’ll get you my pretty!  And your little DOG too!!!”  This just puts me in a bad mood, if you know what I mean.

Someone’s Bible must be gathering dust
1 Corinthians 6

(With apologies to our learned drs of law)
Hopefully that Virginia judge will find her and TEC guilty of reckless ecclesiolatry and dominical domination as well as being drunk with power and exercising TEC polity in a CANA lane.

My question is this, why didn’t Bishop Lee tell Dr. Schori to pick up her lunch and go elsewhere.  Order him to do what?  She can’t order him to do anything!  This is crazy.

Sasha, I agree with you on the broader issue, but I would give her a break when it comes to any circumstances surrounding the death and funeral arrangements of a loved one.

What are the facts in this case?  What are the words +KJS actually used?  George Conger, who is a conservative reporting this is questioned as follows.  I found that Mr. Conger, a regular stringer for the Living Church (a conservative publication though not radically so, has been a little harder right when reporting on his blog)  so is what follows an accurate criticism of what the author alleges as disingenuous:

Dear George,
this is, at the very least, disingenuous of you.
The Presiding Bishop has been quoted from Dar es Salaam by the Primate of Canada (Andrew Hutchison) as saying, of the Communique, “I can live with it”. That’s hardly an “endorsement”!
Further, when asked specifically, she indicated that all she could do was take the communiques’ requests back to her province - that she did not have the authority to bind the Episcopal Church or speak for it without consultation with all the orders of the Church.
Lastly, it is a stretch to describe the testimony of the PB that she “could not support negotiations” as (in your words, that) she “directed the diocese to sue,” and “ordered Lee to break a verbal agreement.”
(the Rev) Nigel Taber-Hamilton, Freeland WA

+KJS is being quoted in the subject line of this thread as “I ordered a U-turn on deal”  First of all the grammar is so poor; I doubt she said that, second, who is quoting her, and in what context?

Emily,
Let’s compare apples and apples.  I’ll take the journalism of George Conger any day over Jan Nunley’s snide remarks, and Jim Naughton’s spin machine.  If you choose to defend the fact that the PB has chosen to engage, at her own direction, in lawsuits- specifically prohibited in scripture- then go ahead, defend her.  But attacking the messenger will not defend her.  It is the words of her own mouth, in sworn deposition, that contradict her words of “reconciliation.”

The facts on the ground bear out the statement that KJS did, indeed, order Virginia to stop the process that was already under way. Is anyone actually surprised?

The facts on the ground bear out the statement that KJS did, indeed, order Virginia to stop the process that was already under way. Is anyone actually surprised?

The only surprise is that bp. Lee kowtowed to the PB.  Up to that point, I thought he was a Bishop of the Church- which is to say, I was surprised he accepted and carried our an order contrary to both the doctrine and discipline of the Church, and the expressed Word of Scripture.

Of course, since KJS’s words so frequently contradict KJS’s words, the “I ordered” part may be a prevarication of its own to try to establish that TEC is a hierarchical church (along, for instance, with the Bennison inhibition).  A whole lot of rickety cards in this house of cards, aren’t there?

“A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
In our academies, what this means is that quibbling, evasive statements, or the use of technicalities are not tolerated.

What we have heard from the PB (her “explantation” of Dar), from Bruno (“I did not approve” of SSBs), from Lee (re backing out of the protocol) and nearly the whole HOB in New Orleans—are all shameful examples of disregard for the truth.  None could survive an academy honor committee review.

Is this how low TEC has become?  Are their values the values of Jesus?  In Matthew 5, we read:

  33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’ 34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

The Dar-es-Salaam request that TEC desist in the lawsuits must be taken in context.  The request came from +Duncan who was being sued and +Minns, (in constant shuttle communication from upstairs with +Akinola) soon would be.  On the face of it, following the specific scriptural mandate seems very right, but, as in all things, there is more than one “right” involved here.  If the situation were reversed, for example, in Virginia, and TEC (instead of Truro, Falls Church) would have obtained undisputed ownership of the property by default if Truro failed to sue, would you feel the same?  Would you be quoting this scriptural reference?  In the case of Grace Colorado, it is Grace that is suing.  Shouldn’t they be asked, on the basis of scripture,  to drop their suit? In the case of St. James Newport, they have a ruling, but they have filed an appeal.  Should they be asked to drop their appeal on the basis of scriptural warrant?  Again, it was +Minns (I assume as he had motive and opportunity) and +Duncan (I can prove) who pushed for the primates to include this concern in the Dar-es communique.  And I seriously doubt if they would have raised the issue if it had not been in their legal interest.  I am happy to have all these folks meet in court.  Hopefully it will be a less contentious, better mannered, and less biased environment than what we experience now…and, frankly, I find that a horrifying statement to admit.

Emily H
Whatever the process at Dar and who said what and ran up which set of stairs, all the Primates asked for a cessation of the lawsuits.  St Paul’s stricture that it is un-Christian has often been quoted.  Nevertheless, all the signs are that your church is embarking on massive intimidation and legal suits ignoring that.  There was and is another way and it does not involve sanitising the lawsuits of emotion if that is ever possible.

Do you have any idea how badly this plays across the Communion and internationally where we are all tarred as poor witnesses to Christ through our association with your church?  Do you think it has something to do with the massive reaction you are seeing from all quarters and the radicalisation in disapproval of your church’s actions?  This is from those who had been previously more positive towards your church - I count myself among them.  It has undermined the efforts that were made at New Orleans, and I would acknowledge that efforts were made.

You know that this is not the way of Christ - it does not have to be this way.

Yes, it does play badly across the Communion.  One wonders if this is where Harare is headed, and given +Kunonga’s connections, that, in a “civil” court, he would hang on to his “gains?” (Is that a tactful way of saying it?)  It is sad to think that an appeal needed to be made to the king’s justice in England when clergy or barons were in it for the money or the Vatican was in it to protect the papal states.  Where is the “virtue” on either side of this conflict.  The implication that +Minns et al. are guileless and not in it to protect their property interest is ludicrous.  To argue that TEC isn’t focused on the property is equally ridiculous.  No one has taken the high road here and, for the CANA congregations or +Duncan to have played and continue to play the victims here or to have tried and to continue to try to convince the primates that they were, are, ...in the those three days of spin in Tanzania and what followed, is beyond the pale.

The Dar-es-Salaam request that TEC desist in the lawsuits must be taken in context.

No they don’t. Don’t defend the indefensible.
Intercessor

I’ve lost track of what is happening in Harare except it is pretty dreadful and I am no apologist for the early clergy, barons or the Vatican.  It is always hard to take the Christian way when the temptation is to slug it out.

But like fighting for peace there is an inherent contradiction.  Battling in Court is no way to preserve or build up any church.  Perhaps the answer is to set our eyes on Christ and follow him - do you think?

To All,
Our Continuing Anglican Jurisdiction gladly supports the decisions that the GS and Southern Cone primates are doing.  May God blesss them always in everything that they do!
But another point about TECWW canon law.  There is no use in looking for the canon now because 815 changes the canons around so much on a full time basis to suit their own personal selfish needs that there will be no use in asking for it.  Why does one really think that a lawyer like Beers is there for?  He’s there to keep constantly rewriting the canons to suit 815’s selfish needs.
Pax Romana,
+Stonewall

Change the canons, change the prayer book, change the Bible.  It seems there is a pattern here.  Or should I say revise the canons, revise the prayer book, revise the Bible, revise the tenets of the
Christian faith.  She and her cohorts are going to change and revise whatever they want to.

Sadie, it’s real simple.  If you’ve got the votes, you can change it all—and then claim that it’s a new thingy from their Holy Spirit.

Problem is:  will God recognize their Holy Spirit?  Or will it be just sound and fury, signifying nothing?

EMILYH:
I wonder if you have any awareness of the millions of dollars that have gone to outreach from Truro, The Falls Church, and the rest of the Virginia 11 in addition to the hundreds of thousands of man/woman hours that have been given in the name of Christ from these God-based institutions.  Remember, financial arrangements with the diocese were in the first stages of discussion when Schori stepped in.  The diocese (as most dioceses in Ecusa) needed and, I am certain, still needs the money which they could have put to whatever use they deemed as worthwhile (instead of cutting back on staff and mission) and we could have gone on with our Christian efforts.

Instead, in an act that we now realize was driven by vengeance (Schori will sell to anyone but an Anglican, including a saloonkeeper) and ancient rites of non border crossing or whatever (interesting: how often is she upholding ancient biblical standards??) we have this woman plunging all parties into massive lawsuits sucking millions of dollars away from the work that Christ would have us do.  Emily, I can guarantee you one thing.  If we lose the properties the remnants left will never be able to support the property without massive financial help from the diocese so the properties will be sold.  The returns will be used to pay off continuing legal bills across this country and, if there is anything left, it will be put in the coffers of a denomination that is spiraling down into apostasy.

If that day comes, we, of the Virginia 11 will be prepared and will rise mightily to do the work for Christ in another place.  We certainly will not be witnessing 1,000 souls walking away a week as is presently occurring in the Episcopal Church. (by its own census) No wonder many in the Communion view TEC with disdain.

Let’s not forget that TEC/DIO sued us and, if we win, then I would imagine the financial cost will be less than if we had paid off the diocese for the properties over the next 8 or 10 years.  Regardless, it will be a win/win situation for us as long as we keep our eyes on the prize and that is Jesus Christ.

So, before you discuss who is or isn’t guileless in our situation, let’s cut to the chase: Look at the upholding and spreading of the faith once delivered that these institutions have done from their property bases and stop and realize this was not and still is not, worth a hill of beans to Schori.  That is the bottom line.

Peace to all

Of course, Petra, the bottom line is that the LORD allows this trial to come to Truro & The Falls Church, and the rest of the Virginia 11, if Scripture be true than it is for the good of all. Maybe soul searching of what the LORD desires in this maybe better than the touting millions. Could it be the snideness of a better way over AMiA that was touted or maybe favoritism or maybe a lack of response when a construction worker cries for assistance verses some urban professional. Sometimes some soul seeking may reveal areas of discomfort.

HOSEA:  I find nothing wrong with demonstrating what has and can be raised for the Lord’s work in the form of outreach, both in man hours and financial resources, in the context of what is occurring with the damage that Ms.Schori is inflicting in the name of her fiduciary responsibility.  A wonderful, dedicated effort has been performed throughout the years by this group of churches and many, many other congregations throughout the country; it is nothing to be ashamed of; it is nothing to be ashamed to talk about; it is important that we make transparent the results of the actions of this person and her companions.  It is also important to remember there are other ways she could ensure her fiduciary responsibilities to the Episcopal Church other than unbiblical lawsuits. And that is the bottom line relative to Ms. Schori’s secular behavior.

Petra - I find nothing wrong with pointing out that the LORD is working out our holiness more than our happiness. I’ll say as one who travel in those circle last year that many things have turned out differently than presented on both sides—regrettably not for +KJS, I’ll give her this, she’s been consistent (not in a good way either, however it does actually help her in making hierarchal arguments).

Yet I not sure a ‘merit based’ (works based) righteousness gains points. Your day has come, maybe extremely differently than as presented to the congregations, but it has come. I’m sad to say that opening arguments go to plaintiffs and defendants second. The structure of things the last two weeks is very different from what I was told by senior wardens of Truro & TFC a year ago. Having listen to snide comments about others last year from Truro vestry, then to end up basically the same, I actually am in an odd place of agreeing with something Emily said, “No one has taken the high road here.”

I think CANA and DioVA both actually tried, but then there was still a choice that could have for a ‘high road path.’ However this was the path chosen. I still have never known anywhere in Scripture where the argument ‘look at all the good we do’ has shown as a positive. +KJS is a sinner just as I also am, but the Lord has a habit of using sinners in sanctification—so shame has little to do with anything, a time of trial has been allowed, hopefully it’ll purify.

HOSEA:
It goes without saying, we are all sinners, but that is why we believers are so grateful to understand a path to repentance and forgiveness.  And we all also know that “all the good we do” is not the primary route to heaven.  That is not the point I was making.  The point I was making is that there are those who believe in the practical use of the Lord’s money for the help of the Lord’s people and threatening and suing congregations is not one of them.  Indeed, it is a shame that when resources of any sort are available are then used for reasons other than the Lord’s work. (We could get into the “bait and switch” that was brought up at the trial relative to what the churches came to expect vs. what actually happened.  At that moment in time do we stand and defend ourselves?  We chose to stand.)

That being said, I have never been on the vestry at Truro, I have personally never heard snide remarks from a vestry member nor have I seen the same written, nor would I want to get into a he-said, she-said discussion as it refers to this matter or any other matter.

However, on the ground I can state that I have watched my beloved church for decades, from Pike to Spong to Schori become what it is today.  I made the statement 3 years ago that if Truro did not leave ECUSA, I would leave Truro; that is the direction I believed the Lord was leading me.  At that time I began to consider and then search out other possibilities for worship in case I had to leave.

None of us doubt that the Lord has a plan.  I and plenty others just do not believe that plan directs us to live out our remaining time on earth continuing to be a part of and thereby support (by our mortal presence) a denomination that disputes His Word.

Hosea said:

Yet I not sure a ‘merit based’ (works based) righteousness gains points…. The structure of things the last two weeks is very different from what I was told by senior wardens of Truro & TFC a year ago. Having listen to snide comments about others last year from Truro vestry….

Like Petra, I have never been on Truro vestry, and also like Petra, I find the Truro I am in and have been in since 1987 very different from what you describe. My wife and I have been members of two orthodox parishes since 1977 working for the advance of the Apostolically transmitted historic Gospel. Finally with GC 2003 we saw that the effort had failed, then after GC 2006 saw that we would have to leave Truro if Truro did not find a way to separate itself from the rapidly expanding heresy in TEC. We took part in the 40 Days of Discernment, and voted for the direction that Truro has chosen.

I personally find your comments about Truro surprising, since you do not appear to be speaking about the Truro of which I am a member. I am not surprised by our current direction as you appear to be. At the time of the vote to disaffiliate from TEC I said that I had zero emotional attachment to the buildings and our campus, but that I knew we and others had given our tithes over the years so that the Gospel could be effectively advanced from this base of operations, not so that this real estate could be turned over to heretics to further some other kind of religion. For that purpose, I was in favor of keeping the facility - as long as peoples’ tithes and offerings still could flow into ministry and not into the litigation.

Toward that end, we and many others are continuing to give into the general fund as always, plus giving beyond the tithe toward protecting the properties of the 11 churches being sued by DioVA and TEC. Would I be willing to give without limit to fight for the properties? No - that would be bad stewardship, but not defending the property at all would also be bad stewardship. To defend the fruits of faithful believers’ tithes is not bad witness nor does it, as far as I am aware, bring us under some sort of judgment for doing some kind of bad thing.

Doing otherwise would be like Nehemiah telling the people rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem to build with both hands and leave their spears at home, while their surrounding enemies came against them to tear down the walls and injure and kill those working on the walls. Instead, he carefully organized a defense of what God had called them to build (Neh 4:13-22). We at Truro, TFC, and the other 9 churches are merely defending those bases for ministry which God, though his faithful followers, has provided to our congregations.

If we should not defend our rightful ownership of these bases for ministry, these church buildings, from an inappropriate claim of ownership by TEC and DioVA, then I really do not see why we should defend that real estate from anyone who comes knocking at the church door saying, “Give me the keys, and sign over your deed. I want the property to be mine”, whether that entity is TEC, a local car dealer needing more space, or whoever. The deeds claim parish ownership, through their trustees, the capital funding and ongoing expenses, as well as all potential liability for the property have always rested with the parishes, not even the DioVA, much less TEC. The courts will ultimately decide this as a matter of law, not canon law, but it is reasonable for the parishes to defend themselves and their property against any arbitrary adverse claim of ownership.

Petra—The money is a non-issue in one sense CANA may come off cheaper this way. If 815 losses all count than I heard it’s estimated to be $5M, any settlement would be certainly be over $5M for I’d guess that would be amount for Truro alone (I don’t think +Lee would be as amicable as +Stanton was with Christ Church). There was much talk last year, how this would not be either Pawleys Island fiasco or having to walk away from the property (you still see that one in Kevin’s interview with +Minns a month ago). If it worked out than CANA would still be paying out, but DioVA could have used the money instead of 24 lawyers.

The caution is that Jesus spoke a lot about giving and to those who were not ashamed of their generosity. His words shocked His audience as they should us today. I don’t know about you, but receiving the praise of man seems so short lived and unsatisfying, which is the warning Jesus gave of calling attention.

I’ll not frisk the many differences, I will say much has turned out differently than said last year. Some is probably an assumption that turn out not to be true, others a change in the circumstance (some of those there could still have been a choice), some are probably mis-understandings and others out right manipulation under the guides of ‘social engineering.’ I can not see motives so I dare not hazard a guess why something is different.

I’ve used the argument that DioVA/TEC filed against CANA and they were the defendants on SF. I’ll now recant because the reality of two weeks ago does not fit circumstances. The DioVA maybe right in that phase they were the dependents and BabyBlue made the “opps.” Honestly, the form things are happening in Fairfax Courthouse look much more muddled than I understood them to be last year.
——
Getting back on the topic of this article, I think it would have been a much better Christian testimony if the PB had stayed out of it. I understand from her other comments that she’ll fight every battle on every hill to extract the highest cost. In a cold strategic sense it bolster her stance of a hierarchy, +Lee help her case by caving in to the pressure (thus giving the appearance of subordination to an outside world). While I think the CANA 11 are very important for her in several ways (one of which is the poxy war with CoN), I believe the diocese separating are the paramount struggle (as my stupid layman’s understand of things the history with REC my help Dio FW, SJ & Pitt). I’m not surprised that she ordered the “U-Turn.”

I’ll take the unpopular position on this subject and say that by rational action theory that we should not be surprised and expect this type of behavior. I think she demonstrated less of a Biblical undergirding and more of secular reasoning. Her prospective is probably one of ‘save the union’ type first (after DES she kept using ‘pause’ and other wording that she was willing to make some concessions but Bob Maxwell+‘s report from NOLA shows a iron fist on ‘incursions’ from other AC provinces). It makes logical sense, but it’s the ethics of the Chaldeans.

” Bishop Schori’s testimony….......did little to engender the sympathy of the court…..”

One suspects that her testimony did little to engender the sympathy of God, either.