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Archbishop of Canterbury’s 2007 Advent Letter

Friday, December 14, 2007 • 7:37 am


To: Primates of the Anglican Communion & Moderators of the United Churches

Greetings in the name of the One 'who is and was and is to come, the Almighty', as we prepare in this Advent season to celebrate once more his first coming and pray for the grace to greet him when he comes in glory.

You will by now, I hope, have received my earlier letter summarising the responses from Primates to the Joint Standing Committee's analysis of the New Orleans statement from the House of Bishops of The Episcopal Church. In that letter, I promised to write with some further reflections and proposals, and this is the purpose of the present communication. Although I am writing in the first instance to my fellow-primates, I hope you will share this letter widely with your bishops and people.

As I said in that earlier letter, the responses received from primates differed in their assessment of the situation. Slightly more than half of the replies received signalled a willingness to accept the Joint Standing Committee's analysis of the New Orleans statement, but the rest regarded both the statement and the Standing Committee's comments as an inadequate response to what had been requested by the primates in Dar-es-Salaam.

So we have no consensus about the New Orleans statement. It is also the case that some of the more negative assessments from primates were clearly influenced by the reported remarks of individual bishops in The Episcopal Church who either declared their unwillingness to abide by the terms of the statement or argued that it did not imply any change in current policies. It should be noted too that some of the positive responses reflected a deep desire to put the question decisively behind us as a Communion; some of these also expressed dissatisfaction with our present channels of discussion and communication.

Where does this leave us as a Communion? Because we have no single central executive authority, the answer to this is not a simple one. However, it is important to try and state what common ground there is before we attempt to move forward; and it is historically an aspect of the role of the Archbishop of Canterbury to 'articulate the mind of the Communion' in moments of tension and controversy, as the Windsor Report puts it (para. 109). I do so out of the profound conviction that the existence of our Communion is truly a gift of God to the wholeness of Christ's Church and that all of us will be seriously wounded and diminished if our Communion fractures any further; but also out of the no less profound conviction that our identity as Anglicans is not something without boundaries. What I am writing here is an attempt to set out where some of those boundaries lie and why they matter for our witness to the world as well as for our own integrity and mutual respect.

The Communion is a voluntary association of provinces and dioceses; and so its unity depends not on a canon law that can be enforced but on the ability of each part of the family to recognise that other local churches have received the same faith from the apostles and are faithfully holding to it in loyalty to the One Lord incarnate who speaks in Scripture and bestows his grace in the sacraments. To put it in slightly different terms, local churches acknowledge the same 'constitutive elements' in one another. This means in turn that each local church receives from others and recognises in others the same good news and the same structure of ministry, and seeks to engage in mutual service for the sake of our common mission.

So a full relationship of communion will mean:

* The common acknowledgment that we stand under the authority of Scripture as 'the rule and ultimate standard of faith', in the words of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral; as the gift shaped by the Holy Spirit which decisively interprets God to the community of believers and the community of believers to itself and opens our hearts to the living and eternal Word that is Christ. Our obedience to the call of Christ the Word Incarnate is drawn out first and foremost by our listening to the Bible and conforming our lives to what God both offers and requires of us through the words and narratives of the Bible. We recognise each other in one fellowship when we see one another 'standing under' the word of Scripture. Because of this recognition, we are able to consult and reflect together on the interpretation of Scripture and to learn in that process. Understanding the Bible is not a private process or something to be undertaken in isolation by one part of the family. Radical change in the way we read cannot be determined by one group or tradition alone.

* The common acknowledgement of an authentic ministry of Word and Sacrament. We remain in communion because we trust that the Lord who has called us by his Word also calls men and women in other contexts and raises up for them as for us a ministry which can be recognised as performing the same tasks - of teaching and pastoral care and admonition, of assembling God's people for worship, above all at the Holy Communion. The principle that one local church should not intervene in the life of another is simply a way of expressing this trust that the form of ministry is something we share and that God provides what is needed for each local community.

* The common acknowledgement that the first and great priority of each local Christian community is to communicate the Good News. When we are able to recognise biblical faithfulness and authentic ministry in one another, the relation of communion pledges us to support each other's efforts to win people for Christ and to serve the world in his Name. Communion thus means the sharing of resources and skills in order to enable one another to proclaim and serve in this way. It is in this context that we must think about the present crisis, which is in significant part a crisis about whether we can fully, honestly and gratefully recognise these gifts in each other.

The debates about sexuality, significant as they may be, are symptoms of our confusion about these basic principles of recognition. It is too easy to make the debate a standoff between those who are 'for' and those who are 'against' the welcoming of homosexual people in the Church. The Instruments of Communion have consistently and very strongly repeated that it is part of our Christian and Anglican discipleship to condemn homophobic prejudice and violence, to defend the human rights and civil liberties of homosexual people and to offer them the same pastoral care and loving service that we owe to all in Christ's name. But the deeper question is about what we believe we are free to do, if we seek to be recognisably faithful to Scripture and the moral tradition of the wider Church, with respect to blessing and sanctioning in the name of the Church certain personal decisions about what constitutes an acceptable Christian lifestyle. Insofar as there is currently any consensus in the Communion about this, it is not in favour of change in our discipline or our interpretation of the Bible.

This is why the episcopal ordination of a person in a same-sex union or a claim to the freedom to make liturgical declarations about the character of same-sex unions inevitably raises the question of whether a local church is still fully recognisable within the one family of practice and reflection. Where one part of the family makes a decisive move that plainly implies a new understanding of Scripture that has not been received and agreed by the wider Church, it is not surprising that others find a problem in knowing how far they are still speaking the same language. And because what one local church says is naturally taken as representative of what others might say, we have the painful situation of some communities being associated with views and actions which they deplore or which they simply have not considered.

Where such a situation arises, it becomes important to clarify that the Communion as a whole is not committed to receiving the new interpretation and that there must be ways in which others can appropriately distance themselves from decisions and policies which they have not agreed. This is important in our relations with our own local contexts and equally in our ecumenical (and interfaith) encounters, to avoid confusion and deep misunderstanding.

The desire to establish this distance has led some to conclude that, since the first condition of recognisability (a common reading and understanding of Scripture) is not met, the whole structure of mission and ministry has failed in a local church that commits itself to a new reading of the Bible. Hence the willingness of some to provide supplementary ministerial care through the adoption of parishes in distant provinces or the ordination of ministers for distant provinces.

Successive Lambeth Conferences and Primates' Meetings have, however, cautioned very strongly against such provision. It creates a seriously anomalous position. It does not appeal to a clear or universal principle by which it may be decided that a local church's ministry is completely defective. On the ground, it creates rivalry and confusion. It opens the door to complex and unedifying legal wrangles in civil courts. It creates a situation in which pastoral care and oversight have to be exercised at a great distance. The view that has been expressed by all the Instruments of Communion in recent years is that interventions are not to be sanctioned. It would seem reasonable to say that this principle should only be overridden when the Communion together had in some way concluded, not only that a province was behaving anomalously, but that this was so serious as to compromise the entire ministry and mission the province was undertaking. Without such a condition, the risk is magnified of smaller and smaller groups taking to themselves the authority to decide on the adequacy of a neighbour's ministerial life or spiritual authenticity. The gospels and the epistles of Paul alike warn us against a hasty final judgement on the spiritual state of our neighbours.

While argument continues about exactly how much force is possessed by a Resolution of the Lambeth Conference such as the 1998 Lambeth Conference Resolution on sexuality, it is true, as I have repeatedly said, that the 1998 Resolution is the only point of reference clearly agreed by the overwhelming majority of the Communion. This is the point where our common reading of Scripture stands, along with the common reading of the majority within the Christian churches worldwide and through the centuries.

Thus it is not surprising if some have concluded that the official organs of The Episcopal Church, in confirming the election of Gene Robinson and in giving what many regard as implicit sanction to same-sex blessings of a public nature have put in question the degree to which it can be recognised as belonging to the same family by deciding to act against the strong, reiterated and consistent advice of the Instruments of Communion. The repeated requests for clarification to The Episcopal Church, difficult and frustrating as they have proved for that province, have been an attempt by the Communion at large to deal with the many anxieties expressed in this regard. The matter is further complicated by the fact that several within The Episcopal Church, including a significant number of bishops and some diocesan conventions, have clearly distanced themselves from the prevailing view in their province as expressed in its public policies and declarations. This includes the bishops who have committed themselves to the proposals of the Windsor Report in their Camp Allen conference, as well as others who have looked for more radical solutions. Without elaborating on the practical implications of this or the complicated and diverse politics of the situation, it is obvious that such dioceses and bishops cannot be regarded as deficient in recognisable faithfulness to the common deposit and the common language and practice of the Communion. If their faith and practice are recognised by other churches in the Communion as representing the common mind of the Anglican Church, they are clearly in fellowship with the Communion. The practical challenge then becomes to find ways of working out a fruitful, sustainable and honest relation for them both with their own province and with the wider Communion.

That challenge is not best addressed by a series of ad hoc arrangements with individual provinces elsewhere, as the Dar-es-Salaam communiqué made plain. The New Orleans statement, along with many individual statements by bishops in TEC, expresses the anger felt by many in the US - as also in Canada - about uncontrolled intervention, and it is evident that this is not doing anything to advance or assist local solutions that will have some theological and canonical solidity.

I believe that we as a Communion must recognise two things in respect of the current position in TEC. First: most if not all of the bishops present in New Orleans were seeking in all honesty to find a way of meeting the requests of the primates and to express a sense of responsibility towards the Communion and their concern for and loyalty to it. It is of enormous importance that the Communion overall does not forget its responsibility to and for that large body of prayerful opinion in The Episcopal Church which sincerely desires to work in full harmony with others, particularly those bishops who have clearly expressed their desire to work within the framework both of the Windsor Report and the Lambeth Resolutions, and that it does not give way to the temptation to view The Episcopal Church as a monochrome body. Second: it is practically impossible to imagine any further elucidation or elaboration coming from TEC after the successive statements and resolutions from last year's General Convention onwards. A good deal of time and effort has gone into the responses they have already produced, and it is extremely unlikely that further meetings will produce any more substantial consensus than that which is now before us.

The exact interpretation of the New Orleans statements, as the responses from around the Communion indicate, is disputable. I do not see how the commitment not to confirm any election to the episcopate of a partnered gay or lesbian person can mean anything other than what it says. But the declaration on same-sex blessings is in effect a reiteration of the position taken in previous statements from TEC, and has clearly not satisfied many in the Communion any more than these earlier statements. There is obviously a significant and serious gap between what TEC understands and what others assume as to what constitutes a liturgical provision in the name of the Church at large.

A scheme has been outlined for the pastoral care of those who do not accept the majority view in TEC, but the detail of any consultation or involvement with other provinces as to how this might best work remains to be filled out and what has been proposed does not so far seem to have commanded the full confidence of those most affected. Furthermore, serious concerns remain about the risks of spiralling disputes before the secular courts, although the Dar-es-Salaam communiqué expressed profound disquiet on this matter, addressed to all parties.

A somewhat complicating factor in the New Orleans statement has been the provision that any kind of moratorium is in place until General Convention provides otherwise. Since the matters at issue are those in which the bishops have a decisive voice as a House of Bishops in General Convention, puzzlement has been expressed as to why the House should apparently bind itself to future direction from the Convention. If that is indeed what this means, it is in itself a decision of some significance. It raises a major ecclesiological issue, not about some sort of autocratic episcopal privilege but about the understanding in The Episcopal Church of the distinctive charism of bishops as an order and their responsibility for sustaining doctrinal standards. Once again, there seems to be a gap between what some in The Episcopal Church understand about the ministry of bishops and what is held elsewhere in the Communion, and this needs to be addressed.

The exchange between TEC and the wider Communion has now been continuing for some four years, and it would be unrealistic and ungrateful to expect more from TEC in terms of clarification. Whatever our individual perspectives, I think we need to honour the intentions and the hard work done by the bishops of TEC. For many of them, this has been a very costly and demanding experience, testing both heart and conscience. But now we need to determine a way forward.

The whole of this discussion is naturally affected by what people are thinking about the character and scope of the Lambeth Conference, and I need to say a word about this here. Thus far, invitations have been issued with two considerations in mind.

First: I have not felt able to invite those whose episcopal ordination was carried through against the counsel of the Instruments of Communion, and I have not seen any reason to revisit this (the reference in the New Orleans statement to the Archbishop of Canterbury's 'expressed desire' to invite the Bishop of New Hampshire misunderstands what was said earlier this year, when the question was left open as to whether the Bishop, as a non-participant, could conceivably be present as a guest at some point or at some optional event). And while (as I have said above) I understand and respect the good faith of those who have felt called to provide additional episcopal oversight in the USA, there can be no doubt that these ordinations have not been encouraged or legitimised by the Communion overall.

I acknowledge that this limitation on invitations will pose problems for some in its outworking. But I would strongly urge those whose strong commitments create such problems to ask what they are prepared to offer for the sake of a Conference that will have some general credibility in and for the Communion overall.

Second: I have underlined in my letter of invitation that acceptance of the invitation must be taken as implying willingness to work with those aspects of the Conference's agenda that relate to implementing the recommendations of Windsor, including the development of a Covenant. The Conference needs of course to be a place where diversity of opinion can be expressed, and there is no intention to foreclose the discussion - for example - of what sort of Covenant document is needed. But I believe we need to be able to take for granted a certain level of willingness to follow through the question of how we avoid the present degree of damaging and draining tension arising again. I intend to be in direct contact with those who have expressed unease about this, so as to try and clarify how deep their difficulties go with accepting or adopting the Conference's agenda.

How then should the Lambeth Conference be viewed? It is not a canonical tribunal, but neither is it merely a general consultation. It is a meeting of the chief pastors and teachers of the Communion, seeking an authoritative common voice. It is also a meeting designed to strengthen and deepen the sense of what the episcopal vocation is.

Some reactions to my original invitation have implied that meeting for prayer, mutual spiritual enrichment and development of ministry is somehow a way of avoiding difficult issues. On the contrary: I would insist that only in such a context can we usefully address divisive issues. If, as the opening section of this letter claimed, our difficulties have their root in whether or how far we can recognise the same gospel and ministry in diverse places and policies, we need to engage more not less directly with each other. This is why I have repeatedly said that an invitation to Lambeth does not constitute a certificate of orthodoxy but simply a challenge to pray seriously together and to seek a resolution that will be as widely owned as may be.

And this is also why I have said that the refusal to meet can be a refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection. We are being asked to see our handling of conflict and potential division as part of our maturing both as pastors and as disciples. I do not think this is either an incidental matter or an evasion of more basic questions.

This means some hard reflective work in preparation for the Conference - including pursuing conversations with each other across the current divisions. There will also be a number of documents circulating which will feed into the Conference's discussions, in particular the work of the Covenant Design Group, the resources available from the dialogues with the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the Report of the Doctrinal commission and the papers coming from IASCER. Also significant will be the papers on the core elements of Anglican ministerial education and formation prepared by the group advising the Primates on Theological Education in the Anglican Communion, and the paper on the theology of inter faith relations prepared by the Network for Inter Faith Concerns (NIFCON), Generous Love.

But direct contact and open exchange of convictions will be crucial. Whatever happens, we are bound to seek for fruitful ways of carrying forward liaison with provinces whose policies cause scandal or difficulty to others. Whatever happens, certain aspects of our 'relational' communion will continue independently of the debates and decisions at the level of canons and hierarchies.

Given the differences in response to The Episcopal Church revealed in the responses of the primates, we simply cannot pretend that there is now a ready-made consensus on the future of relationships between TEC and other provinces. Much work remains to be done. But - once again, I refer back to my introductory thoughts - that work is about some basic questions of fidelity to Scripture and identity in ministry and mission, not only about the one issue of sexuality. It is about what it means for the Anglican Communion to behave with a consistency that allows us to face, both honestly and charitably, the deeply painful question of who we can and cannot recognise as sharing the same calling and task.

Finally, what specific recommendations emerge from these thoughts?

I propose two different but related courses of action during the months ahead. I wish to pursue some professionally facilitated conversations between the leadership of The Episcopal Church and those with whom they are most in dispute, internally and externally, to see if we can generate any better level of mutual understanding. Such meetings will not seek any predetermined outcome but will attempt to ease tensions and clarify options. They may also clarify ideas about the future pattern of liaison between TEC and other parts of the Communion. I have already identified resources and people who will assist in this.

I also intend to convene a small group of primates and others, whose task will be, in close collaboration with the primates, the Joint Standing Committee, the Covenant Design Group and the Lambeth Conference Design Group, to work on the unanswered questions arising from the inconclusive evaluation of the primates to New Orleans and to take certain issues forward to Lambeth. This will feed in to the discussions at Lambeth about Anglican identity and the Covenant process; I suggest that it will also have to consider whether in the present circumstances it is possible for provinces or individual bishops at odds with the expressed mind of the Communion to participate fully in representative Communion agencies, including ecumenical bodies. Its responsibility will be to weigh current developments in the light of the clear recommendations of Windsor and of the subsequent statements from the ACC and the Primates' Meeting; it will thus also be bound to consider the exact status of bishops ordained by one province for ministry in another. At the moment, the question of 'who speaks for the Communion?' is surrounded by much unclarity and urgently needs resolution; the people of the Communion need to be sure that they are not placed in unsustainable and damaging positions by any vagueness as to what the Communion as a whole believes and endorses, and so the issue of who represents the Communion cannot be evaded. The principles set out at the beginning of this letter will, I hope, assist in clarifying what needs to be said about this. Not everyone carrying the name of Anglican can claim to speak authentically for the identity we share as a global fellowship. I continue to hope that the discussion of the Covenant before, during and beyond Lambeth will give us a positive rallying-point.

A great deal of the language that is around in the Communion at present seems to presuppose that any change from our current deadlock is impossible, that division is unavoidable and that any such division represents so radical a difference in fundamental faith that no recognition and future co-operation can be imagined. I cannot accept these assumptions, and I do not believe that as Christians we should see them as beyond challenge, least of all as we think and pray our way through Advent.

The coming of Christ in the flesh and the declaration of the good news of his saving purpose was not a matter of human planning and ingenuity, nor was it frustrated by human resistance and sin. It was a gift whose reception was made possible by the prayerful obedience of Mary and whose effect was to create a new community of God's sons and daughters. As we look forward, what is there for us to do but pray, obey and be ready for God's re-creating work through the eternal and unchanging Saviour, Jesus Christ?

'The Spirit and the bride say, "Come"... Amen. Come Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen' (Rev.22.17, 20-21).

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Comments:

I have read through the document—and I sense some possibility here—do we have a cloud no larger than a man’s hand here? I know it is easy to be pessimistic. Why don’t we pray for something good to come out of this?

[1] Posted by yohanelejos on 12-14-2007 at 07:48 AM • top

At what point did small group discussions become enshrined as part of our rich Anglican heritage? Is there some sort of liturgy involved and is there a sacrament that involves flip over pads of newsprint and ample supplies of whiteboard? Perhaps instead of prayers of the people we could have ‘ice breaking questions’?

I have a blog thingy

[2] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 12-14-2007 at 07:50 AM • top

No more meetings!  We’re done with this.  Sheep don’t have dialogue with the wolves who want them dead.

[3] Posted by fatherlee on 12-14-2007 at 07:57 AM • top

Do remember who will be involved—yes, it will involve the likes of +Wales or +Scotland, but also the presence of the African archbishops, or +West Indies.

[4] Posted by yohanelejos on 12-14-2007 at 07:59 AM • top

I can see this item hitting 300 comments, maybe even more.

[5] Posted by yohanelejos on 12-14-2007 at 08:01 AM • top

No more meetings!  We’re done with this.  Sheep don’t have dialogue with the wolves who want them dead.

fatherlee, they don’t want you dead. They disagree with you on the interpretation of scripture. This whole crisis might stand some chance of being resolved if everybody stops exaggerating and remembers Christ’s injunction to “do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”.

[6] Posted by Marcus on 12-14-2007 at 08:05 AM • top

This is mixed. There is good stuff here, notably

So a full relationship of communion will mean:

  1.    The common acknowledgement that we stand under the authority of Scripture as ‘the rule and ultimate standard of faith’, in the words of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral; as the gift shaped by the Holy Spirit which decisively interprets God to the community of believers and the community of believers to itself and opens our hearts to the living and eternal Word that is Christ.  Our obedience to the call of Christ the Word Incarnate is drawn out first and foremost by our listening to the Bible and conforming our lives to what God both offers and requires of us through the words and narratives of the Bible.  We recognise each other in one fellowship when we see one another ‘standing under’ the word of Scripture.  Because of this recognition, we are able to consult and reflect together on the interpretation of Scripture and to learn in that process.  Understanding the Bible is not a private process or something to be undertaken in isolation by one part of the family.  Radical change in the way we read cannot be determined by one group or tradition alone.

There is also the implication that he wants decisions to be made (or at the very least started) at the Lambeth conference. But it would be nice to see some positive action, rather than

I also intend to convene a small group of primates and others, whose task will be, in close collaboration with the primates, the Joint Standing Committee, the Covenant Design Group and the Lambeth Conference Design Group, to work on the unanswered questions arising from the inconclusive evaluation of the primates to New Orleans and to take certain issues forward to Lambeth.

and

I wish to pursue some professionally facilitated conversations between the leadership of The Episcopal Church and those with whom they are most in dispute, internally and externally, to see if we can generate any better level of mutual understanding.

Each side understands the other well enough by now, I think. I don’t see how more conversations will help. What good can another committee or conversation do?

[7] Posted by Boring Bloke on 12-14-2007 at 08:06 AM • top

The bad:

And this is also why I have said that the refusal to meet can be a refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection.

Curiously enough the reading from the old 1662 lectionary this morning, was 2 John

10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
  11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

I don’t think that “the elder” agreed with Dr Williams here.

[8] Posted by Boring Bloke on 12-14-2007 at 08:14 AM • top

If ++ABC wants to solve the problem, he needs to tell TEC to walk apart from the Communion until they are ready to repent and work within the Communion. He should also pay the legal expenses for the departing parishes that are being sued over the troubles caused by TECs innovations.

The conversation has been going on for 40 years. Position TEC to repent and pray their way back into the Church. That should be what is voted on after much discernment.

[9] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-14-2007 at 08:17 AM • top

I also intend to convene a small group of primates and others, whose task will be,...to work on the unanswered questions arising from the inconclusive evaluation of the primates to New Orleans and to take certain issues forward to Lambeth.

Just when you thought it was safe to go outside. 

You were wrong.

It was the Return of the <font size=“22” face=“Earwig Factory”>Panel of Reference</font> in 3D!!!!


wink

[10] Posted by tired on 12-14-2007 at 08:18 AM • top

Fr. Lee, they want you dead. That is, if they cannot castrate all your influence.

[11] Posted by alfonso on 12-14-2007 at 08:18 AM • top

fatherlee, they don’t want you dead. They disagree with you on the interpretation of scripture. This whole crisis might stand some chance of being resolved if everybody stops exaggerating

Sorry Marcus, but I can’t agree.  When The Telegraph posed the question “Would a split actually be better for the Church?” one typically liberal response read as follows:

Yes it would be, the more inclusive and relevant would get more people, the more conservative would die off. What is the problem? Answer, none!!

Yes, they do want us dead.  Literally.  And why wouldn’t they?  Who would stand in their way then?

[12] Posted by st. anonymous on 12-14-2007 at 08:20 AM • top

Better than I feared and less than I hoped for.  Some parts of this will be very helpful to people who seek a simple description of the crisis.  Bottom line: we are being asked to wait longer, to wait for the covenant as passed by Lambeth. Ps. 13 comes to mind “How long, O Lord? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me?

[13] Posted by Ed McNeill on 12-14-2007 at 08:20 AM • top

Well, when you digest all this rhetoric, nuances, and verbage, I see several points that stick out.
1. “We have no consensus on the New Orleans state…etc” - And with the supporting paragraphs = DOA…we can do nothing about it…time to move on to other things. It was a waste of time.

2. The Anglican Communion is a group of provinces and association that have some common ground that is the same “constitutent elements”, but have many differences that should be respected. The differences are to be allowed as they are not communion breakers.

3. The House of Bishops of the TEC are full of Holy and righteous people that only want the best for everyone. (I think I am going to be sick.)

4. The paragraphs on sacraments, Holy Scripture, and prayer were great orthodox positions, but they seemed minimizes by the rest of the letter. (I don’t understand.)

There is more like what appears to be a rejection of the Southern Cone etc intervention, a possible rejection of the apostolic succession of the bishops ordained by other provinces, and I think a rejection of the Common Cause Partnership.  This will be a large comment area and discussion. I hope our Worthy Opponents let us debate and analyze this with charity and reason and not try to hijack the thread. There is a lot here to digest…with TUMs and maybe Pepto needed. But definitely with prayer and charity.

[14] Posted by Houseownedbythedog3 on 12-14-2007 at 08:21 AM • top

I do wish he would not have posted this on my day off; I need to be planting blueberry bushes (and a church) not contemplating such lofty missives.

Having read this tome, I can say I am generally encouraged.  My hackles rose on three occasions: 1) the statement about the honesty of the bishops in New Orleans - while I do not have any first hand information, it seems a stretch to attribute honesty to a result which is obfuscation at best and the interpretation of which the Archbishop says is disputable; 2) entirely too many words about border crossing and not enough about lawsuits; 3) the statements noted above about more meetings, more vague discussions.  That being said, I did feel a certain conviction about assuming there is no possible way to avert fracture.

Else, the letter was more than I expected.

[15] Posted by Michael+ on 12-14-2007 at 08:24 AM • top

The principle that one local church should not intervene in the life of another is simply a way of expressing this trust that the form of ministry is something we share and that God provides what is needed for each local community.

Agreed but he fails to address what happens when one local church recognizes that the other local church has ceased to be Christian in which case it is their duty to send life support to the remnant who wish to flee the secular takeover.

I hope they all participate in the talk - as long as it happens PRIOR to Lambeth.  If ECUSA is serious about wanting to remain Anglican then they agree to roll back all their innovations and come to the table and wait unless and until there is an agreement their way is God’s way.  I say this knowing there is little liklihood this will happen for the same reason they moved forward without consent in the first place.  There is no way to Scripturally endorse what they have done either with homosexuality, the divinity of Christ or any of the many, many innovations they have sought to impose on the Communion.  How very much like ECUSA that they stomp their feet because others are choking on what they sought to force feed.
Pray for a miracle.

[16] Posted by JackieB on 12-14-2007 at 08:25 AM • top

I’m still reading, but this—

Successive Lambeth Conferences and Primates’ Meetings have, however, cautioned very strongly against such provision. It creates a seriously anomalous position. It does not appeal to a clear or universal principle by which it may be decided that a local church’s ministry is completely defective.

is greatly mistaken.  TEC is apostate by any number of measures of any number of historic church councils.

[17] Posted by Newbie Anglican on 12-14-2007 at 08:27 AM • top

Executive summary:  Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah.

In other words, let’s keep the conversation going.

[18] Posted by Tar Heel on 12-14-2007 at 08:27 AM • top

From John Jewel’s “Apology of the Church of England” (1561)
“And therefore we know that divers times many good men and catholic bishops did tarry at home and would not come when such councils were called, wherein men so apparently labored to serve factions and to take parts, because they knew they should but lose their travail and do no good, seeing whereunto their enemies’ minds were so wholly bent.  Athanasius denied to come when he was called by the Emperor to his council at Caesarea, perceiving plain he should but come among his enemies which deadly hated him.  The same Athanasius, when he came afterward to the council at Syrmium and foresaw what would be the end by reason of the outrage and malice of his enemies, he packed up his carriage and went away immediately.  John Chrysostom, although the Emperor Constantius commanded him by four sundry letters to come to the Arians’ council, yet kept he himself at home still.  When Maximus, the Bishop of Jerusalem, sat in the council at Palestine, the old father Paphnutius took him by the hand and led him out at the doors, saying, ‘It is not lawful for us to confer of these matters with wicked men’  The bishops of the East would not come to the Syrmian council after they knew Athanasius had gotten himself then again.  Cyril called men back by letters from the council of them which were named Patropasians.  Paulinus, Bishop of Trier, and many others more refused to come to the council at Milan when they understood what a stir and rule Auxentius kept there; for they saw it was in vain to go thither where not reason but faction should prevail, and where folk contended not for the truth and right judgment of the matter but for partiality and favor.

[19] Posted by BBTM on 12-14-2007 at 08:35 AM • top

There is some good stuff here, but unfortunately far too little far too late.  In the end this is nothing but a plea for more dialog and dithering.  Sad, really sad…

[20] Posted by Spencer on 12-14-2007 at 08:36 AM • top

There is more like what appears to be a rejection of the Southern Cone etc intervention, a possible rejection of the apostolic succession of the bishops ordained by other provinces, and I think a rejection of the Common Cause Partnership.

Not a rejection; instead a statement that its status is yet to be decided by one of his committees.

Its responsibility will be to weigh current developments in the light of the clear recommendations of Windsor and of the subsequent statements from the ACC and the Primates’ Meeting; it will thus also be bound to consider the exact status of bishops ordained by one province for ministry in another.

[21] Posted by Boring Bloke on 12-14-2007 at 08:38 AM • top

“And this is also why I have said that the refusal to meet can be a refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection.”

Taken literally, this comes close to “excummunicating” all those who refuse to attend Lambeth?  Thank God he’s not a “pope”... 

How dare he? 

Grannie Gloria

[22] Posted by Grandmother on 12-14-2007 at 08:45 AM • top

I wish to pursue some professionally facilitated conversations between the leadership of The Episcopal Church and those with whom they are most in dispute

Rowan ::hearts:: the Delphi technique

[23] Posted by Regressive Neanderthal on 12-14-2007 at 08:48 AM • top

the people of the Communion need to be sure that they are not placed in unsustainable and damaging positions by any vagueness as to what the Communion as a whole believes and endorses

Well said. This message goes a long way toward confirming its writer as the primus inter pares, just as the other message we have recently received confirmed its writer as the prima inter apostia.

...just a view from the midst of the Briar Patch,

[24] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-14-2007 at 08:51 AM • top

Painful.  The letter starts out well, but when he starts talking about any sort of way forward, my eyes started to glass over, and see nothing but useless discussions for another 4 years.  Ultimately, just a drain of more resources, more emotional effort, wasting time and effort.  There is no clarity here.  No leadership.  I pray for the ABC, and I understand his personal desire to keep things stitched together, but there is nothing here that hasn’t been done already.  I agree with the post about the “Panel of Reference”.  A place to delegate out the nastiness, avoid dealing with it, and hope that the the thing stays together until his shift is over.  There is no position here.  I have to agree with another person.  Executive Summary?  “Blah, Blah….and more blah”.  Frustrating.

[25] Posted by Charlie Peppler on 12-14-2007 at 08:52 AM • top

I realize that many who read and comment on this blog didn’t and don’t expect much from the Archbishop of Canterbury.  I can’t say I am unsympathetic with that view. 

But, reasserters have, especially since GC 2006, been trying to get the message across that it’s not only or just about VGR.  The central matter is Authority - of God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of Holy Scripture.

Despite the fact that nobody who reads this letter will be entirely satisfied, I cannot believe that TEc revisionists can find much comfort about the Communion’s view on TEC’s “new thing” in the ABC’s statements about the authority of Scripture:

Understanding the Bible is not a private process or something to be undertaken in isolation by one part of the family. Radical change in the way we read cannot be determined by one group or tradition alone.

Also, Fr. Lee and all, I think we should all take a deep breath and remember that this is a No Freakout Zone.

[26] Posted by Connie Sandlin on 12-14-2007 at 08:53 AM • top

I agree with several posts above: This is better than I expected but still short of what was needed. It was a lot more direct and to the point than ++Rowan’s usual meanderings. On the whole, I suppose, there is more in it that 815 won’t want to hear than there is for the reasserters to take umbrage at. It could definitely have been much worse. When I get time, I am going to read it much more carefully so my opinions may change.
CONCLUSION: It will be damned with faint praise.
the snarkster

[27] Posted by the snarkster on 12-14-2007 at 08:53 AM • top

Yes, more blah, blah blah.  I was disappointed to see more blah, blah, blah.  In fact I didn’t even make it through the whole letter.

I was hopeful at first when it said, “ADVENT LETTER”. I thought maybe it would be an inspirational letter, maybe it would reference the Gospel, maybe it would actually be a letter with a Christmas message for all the Anglicans worldwide who are craving God’s word, afterall it is Advent and soon to be Christmas.  I’m sure his letter is important but couldn’t he have written it in addition to a real Advent letter? I guess we will just pass over an Advent message without a pause and continue the fight and more blah, blah, blah.

[28] Posted by nochurchhome on 12-14-2007 at 08:56 AM • top

St. Anonymous, I came and saw we had the similar thoughts at the same time: “They want us dead.” I’m not sure what you meant by “literally” but even though they have “sicko-s” who may wish physical harm, the dominant way in which they want us dead is even more real and permanent: they want us spiritualy dead. Their resentment and hatred is ultimately toward God.

[29] Posted by alfonso on 12-14-2007 at 08:57 AM • top

The view that has been expressed by all the Instruments of Communion in recent years is that interventions are not to be sanctioned.

No, the view expressed by the Dromantine Communique was that provinces ought not to “initiate cross-boundary interventions.” The primates as a group have never expressed an opposition to the provision of pastoral care for dioceses and parishes which of their own accord have requested it.

[30] Posted by Regressive Neanderthal on 12-14-2007 at 08:59 AM • top

Executive summary:  Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah.

In other words, let’s keep the conversation going.

You got it.  How many meetings???  WINDSOR PROCESS??  You have got to be nuts—even O’Neill in Colorado considers himself Windosor compliant.  Covenent???????  How long can they keep that conversation going?  10, 20, 50 years?  I am out and I am not coming back.  Grant me a ligitmate way to remain Anglican in the historic sense of that word or I will move on.  God have mercy on those who stay.

[31] Posted by Elizabeth on 12-14-2007 at 09:01 AM • top

It would seem reasonable to say that this principle should only be overridden when the Communion together had in some way concluded, not only that a province was behaving anomalously, but that this was so serious as to compromise the entire ministry and mission the province was undertaking.

The word entire bothers me. So TEC cannot be reprimanded as long as there is one faithful diocese? or parish? or idea?  TEC can wander into heresy in some areas, but as long as not EVERYTHING is heretical, there is no discipline?

It is of enormous importance that the Communion overall does not forget its responsibility to and for that large body of prayerful opinion in The Episcopal Church which sincerely desires to work in full harmony with others…and that it does not give way to the temptation to view The Episcopal Church as a monochrome body.

I can understand this. I think that this is a temptation for those on this country as well as for those outside of it.

I also intend to convene a small group of primates and others, whose task will be… to work on the unanswered questions arising from the inconclusive evaluation of the primates to New Orleans and to take certain issues forward to Lambeth… I suggest that it will also have to consider whether in the present circumstances it is possible for provinces or individual bishops at odds with the expressed mind of the Communion to participate fully in representative Communion agencies, including ecumenical bodies.

So the “call to action” of this letter is to create a committee and talk about this some more.  And push the true decision down the road to Lambeth.  That, after four years, is putting the faithful in the very situation that ++Williams says he does NOT want to put them in:

...the people of the Communion need to be sure that they are not placed in unsustainable and damaging positions by any vagueness as to what the Communion as a whole believes and endorses, and so the issue of who represents the Communion cannot be evaded.

Well, I do think that ++Williams letter is pastoral in nature. It does, at least, articulate the orthodox viewpoint rather well.  But, unfortunately, it seems to do the very thing that says should not be done: it “evades” the “issue” (kicking it down the road to Lambeth) and continues to place people in an unsustainable and damaging position.

[32] Posted by selah on 12-14-2007 at 09:02 AM • top

I was hopeful at first when it said, “ADVENT LETTER”. I thought maybe it would be an inspirational letter, maybe it would reference the Gospel, maybe it would actually be a letter with a Christmas message for all the Anglicans worldwide who are craving God’s word, afterall it is Advent and soon to be Christmas.  I’m sure his letter is important but couldn’t he have written it in addition to a real Advent letter? I guess we will just pass over an Advent message without a pause and continue the fight and more blah, blah, blah.

He posted a Christmas message at the same time, which cantians what you wanted and is actually quite good. Well worth a read, and perhaps a post here. It can be found on the Anglican Communion News service, and perhaps other places.

[33] Posted by Boring Bloke on 12-14-2007 at 09:03 AM • top

I believe that we as a Communion must recognise two things in respect of the current position in TEC. First: most if not all of the bishops present in New Orleans were seeking in all honesty to find a way of meeting the requests of the primates and to express a sense of responsibility towards the Communion and their concern for and loyalty to it.

As much as I would love to believe this, it is just not an accurate presupposition. It may be true for some of our bishops, but certainly not most or all of them. If that were true, we would not be in the mess we’re in now. If this is a foundation we build our conversation on then we are lost before we start. Any claim to communion loyalty by the ruling class in ecusa is smoke and mirrors intended to wear down opposition to their revisions. If they can talk about it long enough, they win and the communion, as we know it now, dies.

[34] Posted by Nowellco on 12-14-2007 at 09:03 AM • top

I see that Rowan “gets” what the conflict is about; my beef with him is his lack of action and leadership.  Those of us who cannot, in good conscience, be under the authority of the TEC would have been left by Rowan to fend for ourselves if not for Venebles, etc.  He does make assertions that directly contridict TEC’s claim of owning property, which is good.  But, as usual, this is way too verbose and lacks clarity.  Reading something Venebles writes never leaves me wondering “what did he mean by that?”.  Whenever I read something Rowan writes I have to back and re-read it, make notes and then am left wondering exactly what is he trying to say…

[35] Posted by B. Hunter on 12-14-2007 at 09:07 AM • top

What we have, in this letter from Rowan Williams, is yet another demonstration of his erudition and sincerity.  On some levels it is magnificent.

At the same time, we ultimately run into the stone wall Archbishop Williams has erected against any meaningful attempts to hold PGCCUSA accountable for its heterodox views, if not outright rejection of the Gospel.  Put simply, Williams is determined that PGCCUSA is not going anywhere.  And so, even as his own words convict PGCCUSA as no longer being in a “full relationship of communion” with the rest of us, the most he can imply is that its representatives had best be kept in the closet when it comes to dealing with others.  That is, he acknowledges, on the one hand, that PGCCUSA’s views, which are in stark opposition to the Communion’s teachings, are unfit for ecumenical dealings, but on the other, intends to invite them to Lambeth.  In a sheer contradiction in terms, however, he fully recognizes that those seeking shelter in other provinces fully share our Faith, but have no place at Lambeth.

This is ludicrous, and stands Williams’ own Catholic ecclesiology on its head.

Most paragraphs in this letter could be used to demonstrate the absurdity of leaving things as Williams apparently plans to leave them – not least the blithe acceptance that a province led by Katharine Jefferts-Schori, tribune of all things Hindu and Jain, shares the commitment to “win people for Christ and to serve the world in his Name.”  Schori herself would probably gag if she attempted to say such a thing, which grants an exceptionalism to Christianity that she has publicly mocked.

At the end of the day, though, those still waiting for a happy ending have to deal with this:

“I have not felt able to invite those whose episcopal ordination was carried through against the counsel of the Instruments of Communion, and I have not seen any reason to revisit this”

over against Archbishop Williams’ willingness to invite those who subvert the moral teaching of the undivided Church against the counsel of the Instruments of Communion.

He is willing to be in communion with those that do not share a “full relationship” by his own definition, but not willing to be in communion with those that share a common Faith.  Let those with ears to hear, etc.

BBTM – great quote from Bishop Jewel.

[36] Posted by Phil on 12-14-2007 at 09:08 AM • top

I e-mailed this to three of my friends (Lutheran, Methodist, and RC)who are in other denominations to give me their opinion of what he was trying to say. I think their insight was unique.

They all three said, “He is obviously angry and to the point of not giving a hoot what happens.” “He is as tired of it all as everyone else is.” “He told all sides what they wanted to hear and irritated all sides with his statements. He covered all bases. He stroked everyone and P***ed off everyone.”

“There is no passion in it. He doesn’t care and wishes all involved would take a hike.” (From the Methodist one)

The one friend who is RC picked up on the if you do not come to Lambeth, you are rejecting the cross and the resurrection. She immediately said, “Is he saying that if they don’t come they are excommunicated? To reject the cross and the resurrection is to say someone is not a Christian and they are going to hell. If an archbishop says that, does that mean you (our diocese)are going to hell?” I had to reassure her that he is not the Pope, although that is quite the unusual authority statement coming from him. And a surprize.

I want to hear what the primates, bishops, and others say now. Verry interesting. And for fun all the spin that will go with it. He does have a way with words.

[37] Posted by Houseownedbythedog3 on 12-14-2007 at 09:11 AM • top

As I read this letter, I cannot help but be struck by a powerful thought:

What would ++RW’s responses to what has happened in TEC since 2003 have been, (possibly even since Spong) if he did not agree with the position taken by the reappraisers on their “New Thing”.

I cannot help but believe he is with them himself, heart, mind and soul.  How much are his personal convictions tying his hands (and his brain) in holding the communion together?  How can someone who is comfortable in thinking/agreeing with apostacy/heresy effectively combat it?

In the end, we cannot fight effectively against something we believe in our heart.  In the end, his only real complaints are the METHODS of GC2003, not the actions.

Am I off base on this?  It would explain a lot.

KTF!....mrb

[38] Posted by Michael Bertaut on 12-14-2007 at 09:12 AM • top

By the way, to buttress my comment, how supremely ironic that Williams thinks “the refusal to meet can be a refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection,” but has little problem with a province shot through with people that actually do refuse to believe the resurrection.

[39] Posted by Phil on 12-14-2007 at 09:13 AM • top

TEC will never, never, never change their direction. This leaves the AC and the ABC with one of two choices. Accept that what TEC is doing is OK, or declare that blessing SSR is wrong and cannot be tolerated. Each choice will have its own set of consequences for all concerned.

Dithering, talking, meeting, professional facilitators will not change the reality, or the range of available choices, nor the consequences. Not to decide is to decide.

What this means is that TEC will go on with SSB and their left wing secular agenda, orthodox churches and provinces will continue to leave for friendlier provinces, and the law suits will continue. Same old same old.

Planting blueberry bushes sounds like a good idea at this point.

[40] Posted by BillS on 12-14-2007 at 09:19 AM • top

I suggest that it will also have to consider whether in the present circumstances it is possible for provinces or individual bishops at odds with the expressed mind of the Communion to participate fully in representative Communion agencies, including ecumenical bodies.

This is a reiteration of Cantuar’s statement after GenCon 2006, indicating a possible separate status for TEC, similar to methodism. Maybe that wasn’t just a trial balloon? He has to understand that the HOB statement in New Orleans was nothing more than whitewash.

[41] Posted by Creedal Episcopalian on 12-14-2007 at 09:20 AM • top

Okay, I posted the above after reading the Advent Letter. Now I have read through the comments so far (previous to my comment).

It is evident from the comments above that the primus inter pares has not addressed a crucial and perhaps deal-killing issue which has arisen; and that issue is the complete breakdown of trust between the opposing parties.

If each side approaches these talks as sheep expecting to be ravened by wolves, progress could be made, but probably not progress such as the ABC envisions. It is quite clear that the ABC envisions the possibility of TEC being excluded from some or all of the life and recognition of the communion; TEC entering these discussions might feel like sheep being thrown to the GS wolves. It is also quite clear that the ABC envisions the possibility of CCP and/or the Southern Cone’s outreach being excluded from at least some aspect of recognition by the communion; this clearly (from the above comments) reinforces the feeling by many of us orthodox that we are the sheep being thrown to the ravenous wolves of ACO/TEC, the Supreme Dithering Council, etc.

All that has been on the horizon for the last few weeks has been centrifugal forces tearing us apart. This letter is a break from that; a centripetal counter-force tying us into relationship, albeit at a distance. What would be even more welcome would be the communal call of Christ calling us together as brothers and sisters in unity.

I guess we’ll have to wait for Christ to do that. I’m afraid that might be beyond the capability of the ABC and our human resources.

...still in the Briar Patch,

[42] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-14-2007 at 09:23 AM • top

Blah,Blah,Blah…lets see how long I can stall before I actually have to deal with this mess!!!  What a joke.

[43] Posted by Gordy on 12-14-2007 at 09:24 AM • top

4,390 words.  Any ray of hope within?

—I wonder about the mathematics behind “slightly more than half of the replies received signalled a willingness to accept the Joint Standing Committee’s analysis of the New Orleans statement

—A call for common acknowledgement that we stand under the authority of Scripture as the rule and ultimate standard of faith (helpful to reiterate this, but there are conflicting hermeneutics out in the TEC wilds)

—A call to acknowledge that communication of the Good News is our first and great priority (again helpful, but there are conflicting Gospels out in the wilds of TEC)

—“interventions are not to be sanctioned” (nothing really new, except that Common Cause gets slapped down here)

—Assertion that Lambeth 1998 resolution on sexuality is the only recognized point of reference on the issue (revisionism gets slapped here)

—A reiterated distaste of extra-geographical “interventions”

—A “need to determine a way forward” (who, what, when, where, how, why?)

—A “question of how we avoid the present degree of damaging and draining tension arising again”  (no “living into” the tension here, folks)

—A recognition of our “difficulties (having) their root in whether or how far we can recognize the same gospel and ministry in diverse places and policies”  (no kidding, eh?)

—The need for “direct contact and open exchange of convictions”  (the dreaded hydra known as the “listening process” rears up its ugly head again)

—Pursuit of “professionally facilitated conversations (binding arbitration?? or another type of “listening process”?)

—Another slap at outside of Canterbury-designated Anglicanism in the statement “not everyone carrying the name Anglican can claim to speak authentically for the identity we share as a global fellowship” (Hey, Archbishop Williams, I thought the fabric of that fellowship had been torn at its deepest level beginning in 2003.  What Anglican identity are you talking about anyway??)

4,390 words of continued indecisiveness.  That’s what we got, folks!

Anglicanism lay sorely wounded, and we get this mess of words to serve as a balm?  I suppose this is the best the AoC could come up with.  Oh, well…

[44] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 12-14-2007 at 09:24 AM • top

This is precisely what we have expected. No discipline will be given now or in the future. There will be no primates’ meeting. There will be no disinvitations.

This is dramatically bad. Eli and his sons, David and Amnon.

[45] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 09:26 AM • top

I do not understand the strong negative reaction to this letter.  What was everyone expecting?  This is actually much more than I was expecting.  It outlines a process for discipline, one which has already begun, and will continue unless derailed by those who have given way to fear and anxiety.  It even sets the parameters of who he expects to be recognized as having taken themselves out of the communion. 

Perhaps the strong negative response is either the fear and anxiety, the impatience of McAmerica, or that +++Williams has not taken the tone of an American conversation using exagerated language and gestures.  Or, perhaps it is that he has cast some doubt on the less than productive anxious reactions that some have taken in response to ECUSA’s unfaithfulness to the Gospel and Anglicanism. 

If there is a refusal to meet at Lambeth, that will be the real reason for the end of communion.  I will not say it is a rejection of the cross and resurrection, that may be a bit strong, but it is a rejection of the Anglican Communion.  It will also be to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[46] Posted by revrj on 12-14-2007 at 09:27 AM • top

As if in counterpoint to this Advent message, I received this “energy alert” from my *priest* this morning:

http://whatsuponplanetearth.com/latest.htm

I wonder if he’s heard from the oracle at Delphi lately? or consulted the entrails of some beast?

[47] Posted by oscewicee on 12-14-2007 at 09:28 AM • top

It seems to be that the ABC is taking the position of a “dialogue bully.”  Saying that those who reject meetings are rejecting the cross is truly abhorrent.

What he doesn’t seem to understand is that this is not a mere difference of opinion - but is a rupture and schism in the Body of Christ over matters of faith.

Marcus, I was using a metaphor.  But, it fits.  As long as TEC continues to sue faithful congregations and threaten litigation against faithful dioceses - how could anyone say otherwise?  Yet, it is the position of ++Williams that if we can all just sit down and talk - we will begin to appreciate one another.  The problem is that we have all the clarity we need.  Some years ago, all we did was ask for clarity, and in KJS and VGR we have all the clarity we can possibly handle.  Any solution to this problem which does not recognize the current state of broken communion will be an utter failure.

[48] Posted by fatherlee on 12-14-2007 at 09:34 AM • top

If I was to bet on something, it would be that just as soon as Lambeth is over, this man retires, collects his pension, and moves on. That is what he sees as a future and the rest ...well… that is someone elses problem. WE (the orthodox) are on our own.

[49] Posted by Houseownedbythedog3 on 12-14-2007 at 09:35 AM • top

revrj,
“the impatience of McAmerica,” ???

Have you forgotten how many years has this been going on???

[50] Posted by Gordy on 12-14-2007 at 09:37 AM • top

My reply on 1st. reading w/o parsing and w/o reading other posts:
- A softball,  +Rowan appears to be out of touch with a number of facts and history.
- His reference to NOLA puts the ‘best possible’ face on it… He appears too much of a gentlemen here.
- He is obviously poised to consider communion wide re-interruption of scripture.
- He also believes he has no or little power, even the power of a ‘bully pulpit’ Not much leadership here.
- Facts and actions on the ‘ground’ have bypassed him, and probably will continue to do so. This leads one to question if his staff is up to date and if they’re telling him how it really is.
- More talk, more documents,  more meetings, more time, more ‘in-between’ and more tension.
- Invitee’s to Lambeth being ‘open’ w/o cast-in-concrete positions is not realistic.

Unfortunately the time is ‘now’ and ‘RIPE’ The delays indicated will allow further split now started, and various factions will only harden their positions.

[51] Posted by DaveB in VT on 12-14-2007 at 09:37 AM • top

Does the ABC actually have the power to arbitrarily rule as some seem to think he does?  Or is he doing the best he can do within the limitations of his power?
He is English.  His writing is not going to be direct, unilateral Americanese (Radner notwithstanding LOL).

[52] Posted by Hope on 12-14-2007 at 09:39 AM • top

At the same time, we ultimately run into the stone wall Archbishop Williams has erected against any meaningful attempts to hold PGCCUSA accountable for its heterodox views, if not outright rejection of the Gospel.  Put simply, Williams is determined that PGCCUSA is not going anywhere.

I think rather that his position is that if there is to be any discipline, it has to be by the council of bishops in its entirety, not by one bishop, even one such as himself. (In what I read to be his view) If TEC is excommunicated, it has to be by Lambeth. If it is to be accepted, then it has to be by Lambeth. Saying that this will last for ever is wrong. If Lambeth takes a decisive stand one way or the other, then if he is true to his ecclesiology, Rowan Williams will have to accept the decision. It always has been that way, for the past several years. This is of course not what those of you in the thick of things want to hear, but just wait another 8 months. Aside from his blunder about refusing Lambeth being equivalent to refusing the cross, this is the most we could have expected from this Archbishop. I would council a little more patience; we give him until Lambeth, and hope that the global south can organise. But if Lambeth fails, then that truely would mark the end.

[53] Posted by Boring Bloke on 12-14-2007 at 09:39 AM • top

Not much leadership here.

NO leadership here.  NONE.  The big goose egg. Zilch. Bupkis.  Canterbury-led Anglicanism may have just died here.  Orthodox primates, what say ye?

[54] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 12-14-2007 at 09:44 AM • top

oscewicee,

That was choice…no, not choice, rotten already!

how does all this relate to where we are now? We are most certainly moving up the rungs of the ascension ladder, piece by piece, and experience by experience. Currently, we have reached a new level, and this involves the level of living in unity and within community. This new level, as with all levels, also connects us more fully with Source, or our souls, and this then, has most recently created the adjustments involving being still and staying in our center.

And just who is your ‘priest’, and which coven do you attend?

Kyrie eleison,

Chip+, cj

[55] Posted by Chip Johnson, cj on 12-14-2007 at 09:44 AM • top

Gordy,

Revrj is spot on…do you really believe Arianism was defeated in one short meeting at Nicea?  And even though the Fathers rightly declared it heresy, after many many years of struggle, it, in fact, still exists today.  We must stand and pray.

[56] Posted by Cathedral curate on 12-14-2007 at 09:45 AM • top

Chip, we have morning prayer three Sundays to make up for one eucharist. :-( Does the ABC have any idea of how ... heathen ... TEC has become? If he is truly Christian, and I believe he is, doesn’t it perturb him at all that so many American “shepherds” are consorting with wolves?

[57] Posted by oscewicee on 12-14-2007 at 09:47 AM • top

I don’t feel particularly bad about this letter, but I don’t feel particularly good, either - mainly because it serves as just the latest evidence that either Rowan Williams doesn’t understand what is going over here in America, or he does understand but he’s trying to paper it over it by getting to Lambeth at all costs, extending the “dialogue” for another ten years, and then before that ten year is up, riding into the sunset and leaving the whole mess to the next poor sap, no more resolved in 2018 than it will have been in 2008.

Rowan needs to be informed, in the most blunt terms possible, what will happen if Lambeth comes and goes with TEC still in place and no discipline meted out: General Convention 2009 will be a bloodbath at which all remaining property options are squashed; a public liturgy for same-sex blessings elevated to the same liturgical prominence as the sacrament of Holy Matrimony will be passed; and focus will shift to making sure there are no dissenters in the House of Bishops, or else. By 2010, it will be mandatory for all dioceses and parishes to ordain gay priests and perform same-sex blessings. What few conservatives are left will be gone, and a whole bunch of “moderates” will wake up to find that their little parish has been turned into a gay bath house where gay couples are being “married” on the altar where they take their children for communion. They too will begin streaming out the doors because… well, they’re moderates. They’re not made of the same stuff some of us are made of.

By 2012 or so we’ll either have a new prayer book, or have seen the revisions passed at GC so that a new one can be issued in 2015, and the Episcopal Church will have dwindled to fewer than a half-million ASA. More cathedrals and retreats will have been sold, parishes will have been merged in an attempt to remain financially viable, and the whole thing will be an even smaller, more pathetic mess than it is now. Fort Worth, Quincy, Pittsburgh and South Carolina will be long gone, and several other dioceses that would have left, but will by then have had all their exits cut off, will collapse as the bulk of their members, with only one option left (leaving) take it. I’m talking about dioceses like Central Florida, Tennessee, Western Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas and West Texas. The unrest will spread to other dioceses… Florida, Southwest Florida, Louisiana… until a fourth of the Episcopal Church is either gone, or on its last days. Dioceses that don’t enjoy some substantial orthodox membership won’t fare much better - witness Minnesota - and soon they’ll be selling off property and merging with neighboring dioceses to remain afloat.

Meanwhile, the Southern Cone plan continues to take shape. Lawsuits accelerate in America as parishes start fighting with dioceses to get out. And where is the Global South in all of this? Are they even present at Lambeth 08? If not, will Rowan Williams be able to say with any trace of credibility that the Anglican Communion didn’t disintegrate on his watch?

I expect snarkster will chime in here any moment with the reminder that insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. A “professionally facilitated” meeting couldn’t be more “same” if you got it off the Xerox machine. Possible conclusion: The communion is being led by a madman.

At any rate, what possible kind of meeting could the Archbishop or any “professional facilitator” construct, that hasn’t already been attempted? Let’s harken back to those golden days of yesteryear…

Lambeth 1998
Emergency Primates Meeting, October 2003
The Lambeth Commission on Communion
Dromantine
General Convention 2006
All the various flavors of Camp Allen meetings
House of Bishops, Spring 2007
Kigali
New York
Tanzania
House of Bishops, New Orleans

Someone please explain… What possible configuration of intent/participants/agenda could be imagined, that hasn’t already been assembled at one or more of the preceding meetings? And the cycle has always been the same:

- TEC, you must get in line with the rest of the communion.
- OK, what do we have to do?
- You have to do A, B, and C.
- OK, um, how about we do A, and some of B, but we can’t do any of C…
- Rowan: So, ACO… what do you all think?
- We like it!
- Rowan: So, Global South, what do you think?
- No dice.
- Rowan: Hmmm… let me think about this.
- Rowan: ...
- Rowan: ...
- Rowan: ...
- Rowan: I’ve got it! Let’s have another meeting!

[58] Posted by Greg Griffith on 12-14-2007 at 09:48 AM • top

Oh, I should add: “Those with they are most in dispute” - e.g. +Iker, +Schofield, +Duncan, +Ackerman et al - are going to have none of any further “dialogue.” I’m chuckling just thinking of what Bishop Iker’s reaction to this suggestion must be.

[59] Posted by Greg Griffith on 12-14-2007 at 09:52 AM • top

So we have no consensus about the New Orleans statement. It is also the case that some of the more negative assessments from primates were clearly influenced by the reported remarks of individual bishops in The Episcopal Church who either declared their unwillingness to abide by the terms of the statement or argued that it did not imply any change in current policies.

We have no consensus because the “polling” method is textbook in Poli Sci 101 on how not to take a poll. The fact that a full third of primates and two thirds of ACC members did not reply, condemns the poll, itself. Ask four simple questions and you will get consensus because there is no wiggle room: 1) Did the HoB agree to not ordain practicing homosexuals as bishop. Yes, they did. (With the caveat that it is phrased in terms of B033, so when that dies in 2009, all bets are off.) 2) Did they agree to not bless SSU’s. No. 3) Did they agree to the very specific DeS scheme for alternative oversight? No! 4) Did they stop the lawsuits as requested? No.

So no consensus. What should we do? Hey, let’s talk about it!

[60] Posted by robroy on 12-14-2007 at 09:53 AM • top

“I’m always willing to listen to another bishop’s confession. Reconciliation of a Penitent is a rite too rarely used.”

I have a blog thingy

[61] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 12-14-2007 at 09:54 AM • top

[- Rowan: I’ve got it! Let’s have another meeting! ...
And I know just the place for it!  The former Cathedral of St. John the Divine, you know, that toney new gay bathhouse in downtown NYC. ]

Kyrie eleison, Maranatha!

[62] Posted by Chip Johnson, cj on 12-14-2007 at 09:56 AM • top

This is certainly inadequate and on first reading reveals +++Rowan’s apparent misunderstanding of, and antipathy towards, Americans.  It appears he cannot grasp that for us, the time for committees, meetings, conferences is over. Our peculiar genius as a nation is that we know when action is inevitable, when conversation is pointless. He cannot see that has happened. It further appears he has completely misunderstood that we regard TEC as absolutey depraved and heretical and that no amount of talk will change our determination to be seperate from such evil.

What counts is the response of the GS primates. If they cave to this really absurd request for yet another delay, and if they go to Lambeth in spite of their assurances they wouldn’t, we have lost a major battle. I suspect he has made some deal with them or he wouldn’t have advanced such undoable ideas in this letter. Let’s see what ++Akinola, Venables, Orimbi et al have to say.

[63] Posted by teddy mak on 12-14-2007 at 09:57 AM • top

To the extent that I believe +Rowan’s goal is to make it to Lambeth with all the major players in attendance - discipline, order, even anything remotely resembling theological coherence be damned - I still believe that the GS primates may attend Lambeth and it not represent a failure, IF and ONLY IF what they accomplish by their attendance is the effective expulsion of TEC from the communion. I realize Lambeth is not adjudicatory, and that the “official” solution will take a different shape, but the die can be cast at Lambeth if the GS wants to do so.

At this moment, though - and I’m open to being convinced otherwise - I think the best plan is for the GS primates, including +Venables and, if possible, +Gomez, to lay down the gauntlet: We will not be at Lambeth if TEC is too. They have to ask themselves what they have to gain, or lose, by going if TEC is also in attendance. I’d have to say that what they stand to lose is far more important than what they stand to gain, namely the realization on the part of TEC that no matter what they do, no matter the depths to which they sink, the GS will schlep over to Lambeth and take it on the chin.

If the GS wants to, they can force Rowan Williams to make the choice of a lifetime.

[64] Posted by Greg Griffith on 12-14-2007 at 10:07 AM • top

Looks like the polity jig is up for all the bishops who claim they can’t act like bishops: 

“It raises a major ecclesiological issue, not about some sort of autocratic episcopal privilege but about the understanding in The Episcopal Church of the distinctive charism of bishops as an order and their responsibility for sustaining doctrinal standards. Once again, there seems to be a gap between what some in The Episcopal Church understand about the ministry of bishops and what is held elsewhere in the Communion, and this needs to be addressed”.

The AB of C can “process or “advise process” or “advise VERY LONG process” of this all he wants, but I can tell you that the fact remains that there are many dioceses in TEC who do not care AT ALL about Communion teaching and desire only to march to the beat of their own egocentric, self-serving, secular drum.  What the Communion will eventually do with said dioceses, I don’t know.  I can only be glad I’m not in one of them. 

I pray for the faithful in places like MA, NH, and Newark.  Hopefully by now they’re all in the Anglican “offshoots” for lack of a better phrase.  Archbishop Williams, the “alternative oversight” of overseas bishops may be “disordered” according to Anglican theology and Communion teaching, but it’s the only thing the faithful truly have.  Personally, people like me have no desire to attend churches in places like Massachusetts who truly care nothing for the words of Scripture(except in finding ways to get around them) and routinely encourage clear violations of Christ’s, Paul’s, and Communion teaching. 

I am grateful for Bishop Stanton, his theology, and the Diocese of Dallas. 

Katherine Schori, by the way, too, doesn’t really give a fig for Communion teaching and she is also unaware of what it is to keep one’s word, let alone God’s. 

My biggest disappointment with this letter is that it appears to render the DeS Communique, which contained a very well-done, well-thought-out feasible solution, moot. 

It’s not really very much more complicated than this—“If they valued Communion teaching, they would adhere to Communion teaching”. 
If they violate Communion teaching and say they still value and want to be a part of the Communion, that’s no more than trying to, in a very self-centered but “sincere” way, have your cake and eat it too. 

And the band stupidly plays on…

[65] Posted by Passing By on 12-14-2007 at 10:12 AM • top

Greg,

If TEC makes it to Lambeth, they cannot be expelled from the communion because participation in the conference “is” participation in the communion. No matter what resolution, however orthodox, is passed, TEC, having been invited and attended can say, for the next ten years, despite what anyone else says, that she is a constituent member of the Anglican Communion. This was ++Rowan’s aim all along. Now that he has managed to get TEC to Lambeth, it is another ABC’s problem in 2016

[66] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 10:12 AM • top

What counts is the response of the GS primates.

Agreed.
</blockquote>
If they cave to this really absurd request for yet another delay, and if they go to Lambeth in spite of their assurances they wouldn’t, we have lost a major battle.
</blockquote>
Not agreed. Rowan Williams has made clear that Lambeth is not going to be coffee and cakes with the queen, or merely praying and fellowshipping, but will be about the covenant, and it will decide on the status of GS rescue missions. If the GS organise, go to Lambeth and hold firm, it would not be a defeat. It could mean winning the war.

[67] Posted by Boring Bloke on 12-14-2007 at 10:16 AM • top

If Miller Brewing ever resurrects the “Tastes Great - Less Filling” commercial series for Miller Lite, I know a guy in Canterbury who would be great for the commercials.  I can just see it now - an angel perched on one shoulder and a (fill in your favorite TEC personality here) on the other.

[68] Posted by Daniel on 12-14-2007 at 10:17 AM • top

Radner+ should feel good.  +Cantuar is a conciliarist.  That leaves Radner+‘s comment made some time ago here… “Lambeth will be what Lambeth wants to be” at issue.  +Minns, +Murdoch, +Anderson, +Atwood, +Guernsey etc. along with +Gene won’t be going.  Something to offend and something to please just about everyone… Must be a sorta good letter.

[69] Posted by EmilyH on 12-14-2007 at 10:22 AM • top

Um - well - um - well - Ummm….....

[70] Posted by Pageantmaster on 12-14-2007 at 10:26 AM • top

IMHO, this is yet another ambiguous statement by the ABC at a time when clarity and discipline are most needed for the health of the Body.  Why is there this refusal to directly, unequivocally, but kindly admonish and discipline sinful behavior and false teaching?  This statement simply permits the TEC agenda and direction to move forward until further meetings and small groups, etc., etc., etc.  Further, it also will provide ammunition that the TEC leadership will selectively emphasize out of context (e.g., as they do Lambeth 1.10)  to discredit those faithful individuals, local churches and dioceses that have come under the leadership and oversight of faithful bishops and primates.  How can a true disciple of Jesus Christ not clearly stand side by side with the likes of the leaders affiliated with the Global South, including those American Bishops (mainly retired) that have taken a stand?  Passivity is a great weakness of men in general (e.g., Adam) and passive is perhaps the best word to describe the leadership shown by the ABC.  What an opportunity to show, state and demonstrate to the world from the pulpit afforded the ABC the perfect love of our Heavenly Father, demonstrated through His only Son, Jesus Christ and His work on the cross.  As one article I recently read suggested, does it not stand to reason that the Perfect Lover would hate with a passion that which is destructive to the beloved?

[71] Posted by BillH on 12-14-2007 at 10:26 AM • top

Bottom line:  Not good enough for me.  This would have been a good letter in 2003, but it is woefully inadequate today.  The Global South Primates have been meeting this week in Nairobi.  I look forward to their reaction.

Some good bits:

1.

The matter is further complicated by the fact that several within The Episcopal Church, including a significant number of bishops and some diocesan conventions, have clearly distanced themselves from the prevailing view in their province as expressed in its public policies and declarations. This includes the bishops who have committed themselves to the proposals of the Windsor Report in their Camp Allen conference, as well as others who have looked for more radical solutions. Without elaborating on the practical implications of this or the complicated and diverse politics of the situation, it is obvious that such dioceses and bishops cannot be regarded as deficient in recognisable faithfulness to the common deposit and the common language and practice of the Communion. If their faith and practice are recognised by other churches in the Communion as representing the common mind of the Anglican Church, they are clearly in fellowship with the Communion.

I read this as saying +Schofield, et al., remain in the Communion.

2. Broad hints that the future for ECUSA is “liaison,” not full communion.  Nice idea, but too late.

Finally, what will he say when he contacts bishops individually about Lambeth?  We don’t have the foggiest idea.  Too little, too late.

[72] Posted by wildfire on 12-14-2007 at 10:35 AM • top

TEC will go their own way, and ++ABC seems to have little power to assert. There have been enough meetings, since decisions from even productive dialogue is spun or “clarified” within days.

Our focus must be on building a renewed Church in North America and not on getting approval from anyone. We should be thankful for support we have from other parts of the world and reciprocate that support as we grow. If ++ABC has no power to discipline TEC, anyone can be in good standing as part of the Anglican Communion, when they associate in programs. We can claim this with other parts of the Communion without the ++ABC’s approval - we are building up the Church and he has no authority to condemn us or those who support us. The Communion is already split, so we might as well work with those who will work with us. That is all TEC is doing and the ++ABC admits he/we must contend with diversity.

IMHO, I would let TEC physically force us out of the buildings with media coverage, and then let those buildings become empty. Take the position that we do not sue other Christians and be conscientious objectors to litigation. Let TEC grow their image as the “dirt-ball” liberals who hijacked an American Church. Other denominations want to see the real Church strengthened and will help us with space for worship. There will be lots of stories for the media, and we have now learned ways to get our message out. We need to put our money towards furthering the Gospel.

Okay, that’s my rant for a bit.

Dr. N.

[73] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-14-2007 at 10:35 AM • top

The problem has been figured out at last:

The Episcopal Church, in confirming the election of Gene Robinson and in giving what many regard as implicit sanction to same-sex blessings of a public nature have put in question the degree to which it can be recognised as belonging to the same family by deciding to act against the strong, reiterated and consistent advice of the Instruments of Communion

Notwithstanding much wishful thinking, it appears that the problem is not going to solve itself:

A good deal of time and effort has gone into the responses they have already produced, and it is extremely unlikely that further meetings will produce any more substantial consensus than that which is now before us

Therefore:

now we need to determine a way forward

AT LAST!!  Because I don’t know about the Anglicans but I’m putting WAY too much time into checking this blog. smile  But wait…don’t sign off yet:

Because we have no single central executive authority, the answer to this is not… simple

Serious problemo.  Thefore, instead of actual action, the way forward will consist of:

some professionally facilitated conversations between the leadership of The Episcopal Church and those with whom they are most in dispute, internally and externally, to see if we can generate any better level of mutual understanding

You know, like when you become a client of a brokerage house and they require you at the very beginning to sign a document that if they screw you you won’t sue them in court but will pursue “professional mediation.”  Now you might think that a dispute between two elements within the SAME church might by mediated by somebody IN the church (an Archbishop?  his delegate?) but see paragraph re: “we have no executive authority.”

But wait…just in the incredibly unlikely circumstance that professional mediation fails:

I also intend to convene a small group of primates and others, whose task will be, in close collaboration with the primates, the Joint Standing Committee, the Covenant Design Group and the Lambeth Conference Design Group, to work on the unanswered questions arising from the inconclusive evaluation of the primates to New Orleans and to take certain issues forward to Lambeth

Well…OK.  That should do it for sure.

[74] Posted by Catholic Mom on 12-14-2007 at 10:38 AM • top

Since it is Advent and we are all about waiting in hope, I invite you to leave your Advent hope thoughts out of this letter at de cura animarum

grin

[75] Posted by Fr Jeffrey on 12-14-2007 at 10:47 AM • top

“This would have been a good letter in 2003, but it is woefully inadequate today.”

Ouch.

...still in the Briar Patch,

[76] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-14-2007 at 10:53 AM • top

I’ve read this again, I’ve no more to add that has not been initially covered above, I appreciate all you posters here at SFIF… what a great education and conversation with kindred souls… but I fear that by Easter we will be uttering those same words of Christ “It is finished.” Dither on +Rowan.

[77] Posted by DaveB in VT on 12-14-2007 at 10:54 AM • top

But Matt… it would be quite easy for +Rowan to counter that, in fact, it is not Lambeth participation per se that defines the communion, but simply whether or not he considers a province in communion with his see.

I think both questions are moot, because I think Rowan has squandered pretty much all of the authority his office ever carried. Authority is like a muscle - it must be used, or it ceases to be useful. +Rowan has refused to exercise the muscle of his office, and in doing so he has let it atrophy to the point where, perhaps, it can’t be revived. I think what we have from this point on is a war between the primates. We’ve seen some small-scale skirmishes here and there, but I think what lies ahead of us is a war between primates that will resemble somewhat the war in TEC, with a motivated left (TEC, Canada, Wales, Australia, half of England and a couple of others) pitted against a motivated right (Nigeria, Uganda, Rwanda, Kenya, Southern Cone), with some lukewarm attempts at mediation attempted from time to time by a non-committal middle.

[78] Posted by Greg Griffith on 12-14-2007 at 10:57 AM • top

Good point, Greg. However, fighting seems pointless. If there is a fight it is competition to build a great Church, and I firmly believe the right will win on message. We now have the blessing from the ++ABC, by his admission of weakness, to move forward in building the Church. I see no value in going to Lambeth to talk.

[79] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-14-2007 at 11:07 AM • top

I am proud that the ABC is standing by his guns. He has been very consistent in his public remarks. He has basically said all along that the situation would be one where those who cannot live into the covenant agreement will not remain within the Communion by virtue of their own choice…But first there must be a covenant…I hope people will stop acting precipitously and focus of the possibilities.

[80] Posted by FrVan on 12-14-2007 at 11:09 AM • top

Forget all the noise.  The real money sentence is never stated—only assumed.  Note well:

Theologically, GC does not matter, nor do diocesan conventions.  If Lam98 is the only “voice of the whole Communion” then LAMBETH EQUALS THE ONLY PLACE TO DECLARE A PROVINCE OUT OF BOUNDS AND THEREFORE APPROVE INTERVENTIONS… AND BY LOGIC APPROVE A NEW PROVINCE. 

This is a theological RPG into the bus of the local “[un]Holy Spirit doing a new thing” mantra…

Will the GS trust Rowan enough to show up and follow thru with Windsor-compliant bishops?  Will Rowan (reluctantly perhaps) allow the inevitable practical results of these assumptions play out—OR do they fear he will simply use this to lure them there only to turn his back with political maneuvering and platitudes?

You have to show up at the table to run it.  Is this a long, hard work of Christian leadership or a fool’s game?

CANA and AMiA, etc, are being asked to sit down and shut up until a place is made—and that means Lambeth.  Or chaos.

OR the final shattering already has started… which will it be?

prodigal

[81] Posted by hoping against hope on 12-14-2007 at 11:11 AM • top

My Summary:  1) There is still confusion after all this discussion, and it is unlikely that further discussion will produce consensus.  2) Therefore, my plan of action is to have more discussion.

Seriously!?!  Are you kidding me?

[82] Posted by Dallasman on 12-14-2007 at 11:12 AM • top

I think everyone is actually missing the real import of this letter.  Whether it is the strategy of +Cantuar himself or of others who advise him, we finally see what the JSC Report fiasco was all about.  By polling the Primates on the Report, rather than convening another meeting to consider the New Orleans response, +Cantuar has effectively marginalized and de-fanged the Primates Meeting.  There is no consensus among them, so they will not be allowed to consult and make any decisions about “what happens next.”  This is almost certainly because +Cantuar (or the force that guides him) knows that the Primates won’t give the required answer to the question.  Very cagey.  So not only is this a return of the Panel of Reference, it is the replacement of the Primates Meeting with the Panel of Reference.

As to the orthodox sounding “statement of the issues” toward the beginning of the letter, notice that it never reaches any conclusions.  It only states what the “reasonable questions and concerns” might be from those who disagree with the revisions.  It is like the anaesthetic attack of a bed bug, which renders the victim unaware that an insectile enemy is sucking the very life-blood out of his body.  It makes us feel that +Cantuar is a fellow traveller.  But he refuses to acknowledge that there is no ultimate distinction between what we say and what we do.  Or to put it another way, that what we do or allow is what we are saying to the rest of the world.

I believe this is very bad news.

[83] Posted by Garrin+ on 12-14-2007 at 11:15 AM • top

Well, at least one group takes this letter as an early Christmas present…the lawyers. Merry Christmas, David Booth Beers, and a litigious New Year!

[84] Posted by robroy on 12-14-2007 at 11:22 AM • top

Not acceptable…clearer language, but still no action.

[85] Posted by johnp on 12-14-2007 at 11:23 AM • top

And Father Garrin, I have been saying the the polling method was intentionally designed to reach the opposite of consensus since its details were revealed. See above.

[86] Posted by robroy on 12-14-2007 at 11:24 AM • top

Leander Harding over at T19 has a comment which is well worth reading - http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/8374/#158103  .  I see this letter has holding much promise.  The ABC knows what kinds of bishops are in the HOB and what kinds of things have been happening in TEC, but has also had enough support from outside to eventually get the elements in TEC which aren’t conducive to a communion to finally get themselves out, without having to seem partial himself.  TEC has been given every opportunity, and an even nastier historic rift would have occurred had it not.  This letter seems to be pointing toward consultations now with more conclusive outcomes, such as a covenant and likely tough decisions for TEC.

[87] Posted by j.m.c. on 12-14-2007 at 11:27 AM • top

++Williams writes:

because what one local church says is naturally taken as representative of what others might say, we have the painful situation of some communities being associated with views and actions which they deplore or which they simply have not considered.

Where such a situation arises, it becomes important to clarify that the Communion as a whole is not committed to receiving the new interpretation and that there must be ways in which others can appropriately distance themselves from decisions and policies which they have not agreed

 

Okay. Rowan understands the problem of the orthodox in this country.  He then goes on to say:

…ministerial care through the adoption of parishes in distant provinces ….creates a seriously anomalous position. It does not appeal to a clear or universal principle by which it may be decided that a local church’s ministry is completely defective. On the ground, it creates rivalry and confusion. It opens the door to complex and unedifying legal wrangles in civil courts.

That’s fair enough. There is rivalry and confusion. So we need a better answer. DeS offered it with APOTEC unequivocally rejected it.  So, there needs to be some other plan.

But the archbishop offers none. Only

I also intend to convene a small group of primates and others, whose task will be… to work on the unanswered questions arising from the inconclusive evaluation of the primates to New Orleans and to take certain issues forward to Lambeth… 

When there is no leadership on the issue of APO, then Common Cause will do what it can.  It will be ‘messy’ and at times ‘confused.’ 

But what else is there?

[88] Posted by selah on 12-14-2007 at 11:27 AM • top

It has been said that Rowan Williams is a master of the art of saying what both sides want to hear.  Judging by the reactions thus far, he has also mastered the art of saying what neither side wants to hear.

[89] Posted by wildfire on 12-14-2007 at 11:27 AM • top

Re- (+++Rowan on his interpretation of any bishop’s refusal to come to his Lambeth Meeting):
“And this is also why I have said that the refusal to meet can be a refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection.”

This is perhaps the MOST OFFENSIVE STATEMENT I have read so far on this crisis.
So, +++Rowan is now placing his Lambeth Invitation at par, or above the Invitation to the Cross - No Lambeth, No Salvation.
I think +++Rowan thinks that writing thousands of words (that amount to little or nothing) may somehow make this matter disappear.
In this letter, the Archbishop seems to be attempting to throw a little beat of some red meat to each faction, and by so doing may buy more time - till he retires. 
The idea of some “professionally facilitated conversations between the leadership of The Episcopal Church and those with whom they are most in dispute, internally and externally, to see if we can generate any better level of mutual understanding”
is a another attempt at keeping the endless talking going on and on like the energizer battery.
Pray for Truth, Conviction, and Courage for the gentleman.

Fr. Kingsley+
Arlington, TX

[90] Posted by Spiro on 12-14-2007 at 11:32 AM • top

prodigal,

No, Lambeth is authoritative primarily in this sense: Those who go are considered in communion with Canterbury and those in communion with
Canterbury are in the Anglican Communion at least until the next invitations go out ten years hence.

Thus, it really DOES NOT MATTER at this point what happens at Lambeth. What matters is who attends. Even if they voted a resolution to cast TEC out, IT WOULD NOT MATTER, unless, 10 YEARS LATER another ABC ratified that vote by not inviting TEC bishops. Until then TEC can still legitimately claim to be in full communion with Canterbury. Why? They attended lambeth,

[91] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 11:40 AM • top

Revj said”

I do not understand the strong negative reaction to this letter

Revj the reaction is because the ABC punted and asks the communion to wait until the playoffs, to use football analogy. The problem is, this is not a game!

After saying that TEC’s position can’t be clarified any more, he wants to talk some more…to accomplish what?

The best that can be accomplished is a continued exercise in patience, but as my dad used to say ‘while the grass is growing the horse is starving’. He has made no effective provision for the horse, so the ‘good Samaritan’ neighbors did.

Another reason is that he lays out his three-fold ‘acid test’ for full-communion, but doesn’t pull the trigger, so to speak, on them. If, as ABC he doesn’t feel that it’s his place to pull the trigger, truth demands that he resign. Simply throwing the yellow flag (or blowing the whistle), with no decisive follow-up, will not do - leaders must lead. He is simply adding to the charade while the rest of the church catholic, and the world watch in sometime amusement and horror.

[92] Posted by Gone Back to Africa on 12-14-2007 at 11:48 AM • top

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the Archbishop of Canterbury here. He’s not the Pope. He can’t just excommunicate people. His function is very limited.

Many have complained because he won’t exclude the American church from the Lambeth Conference. This would be a difficult thing to do for the following reasons

1) As he has just said, one mustn’t presume the entirety of TEC is heterodox. Should you destroy Sodom if there are even 10 good men there?

2) If you’re going to make attendance based on doctrinal orthodoxy, who does the arbitration? Does Canterbury appoint himself judge and jury of a show trial of every bishop whose views are held to be too liberal? Does it work both ways? Would a Conservative bishop who believes in, say, lay presidency of the Eucharist, also be excluded? This is the route to a very nasty situation.

So what to do? He has laid out his belief that the way forward is to have an Opt-In Anglican Covenant. Now, we know full well that many of the bishops, and much of TEC will be unable to opt in to the Covenant. They will, of their own free will and accord, consciously choose to separate themselves. Those bishops and congregations who do sign up to it will, however, be full members of the Communion.

So, yes, it will be a long process. And yes, it will involve talking to people you don’t like, and having massive arguments with them. And, possibly, losing some - though probably (by weight of numbers) winning most. And by the end of the process, there will be clarity. It’s just that it will take time. Let’s try to avoid smashing everything up in the meantime.

Charity, guys, charity.

[93] Posted by Marcus on 12-14-2007 at 11:50 AM • top

And, don’t forget, Lambeth invitations are tendered to individual bishops, not provinces, as a whole.  Therefore; it stands that there may be a subjective judgement of ‘compliance’ and attendant invitations for some bishops within a province, but others from the same province are outside, looking in, as it were, since they are deemed by +Cantuar to be ‘out of compliance’, and, like GWB, +Cantuar is the ‘decider’. 
How much more confusing can that be?

[94] Posted by Chip Johnson, cj on 12-14-2007 at 11:51 AM • top

do we have a cloud no larger than a man’s hand here?

Amen, yohanelejos. I believe we are under obligation to clutch at every last straw that points in the direction of reconciliation (joined indissolubly with reformation and renewal)—in the hope that, in the midst of what may seem impossible from a human standpoint, we may just be cooperating in paving the way for a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. After all, we are followers of the One who still cries, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock…”

[95] Posted by notworthyofthename on 12-14-2007 at 11:52 AM • top

Marcus,

No, it is not at all difficult.

You simply disinvite all who refuse to sign a written declaration that they will not permit same sex blessings to take place in their diocese.

This is not difficult at all.

[96] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 11:53 AM • top

robroy-

Yes.  I posted between when I pulled the entire thread up and when you posted your comment.  I agree with what you’re saying.  The whole JSC Report thing was a ploy (by someone) to get rid of the Primates.  Now we see the end game of that strategy.  Disgusting!

What I’m not sure of is whether this is a cynical move by +Cantuar himself or whether someone has just been able to manipulate him.  Either way, the outcome is the same.

[97] Posted by Garrin+ on 12-14-2007 at 11:56 AM • top

Father Matt is right. Unfortunately, this is one Lambeth those holding invites need to attend at least the primates need to. That way, even though it gives TEC ID as being in the AC, it also gives the orthodox in other provinces and the bishops in protected diocese the AC connection until the next Lambeth. The ABC really has the AC over the barrel on this one. To be the AC it needs to go in order to protect the faithful and remain Anglican. It sucks, but there it is…

[98] Posted by Houseownedbythedog3 on 12-14-2007 at 11:57 AM • top

But why stop there? If we’re making attendance at the Lambeth Conference contingent on holding this orthodox line, why not add others? Who decides which doctrine is one which you have to sign up to? The Archbishop of Canterbury? What if he arbitratily decides that something else which is a common standard across the Communion (say, correct vestments at the Eucharist) and should be enforced on everyone? It leaves far too much power in one man’s hands…

[99] Posted by Marcus on 12-14-2007 at 11:58 AM • top

“Charity, guys, charity.”

Marcus, I appreciate your remarks.  As an outsider observing this over the months, I have to say that it seems like an impossible task.  Both sides believe they are right, both sides expect the ABC to throw the other bums out.  What a job, who would want it.  And he does have to work within his job description, which will be taken as the letter of the law on one side and the spirit on the other.

[100] Posted by Hope on 12-14-2007 at 12:02 PM • top

Someone told me today about being a guest at a revival at a church of another denomination. The speaker got up and said, “Don’t worry about what to believe. I’ll tell you what to believe.” I don’t think we want to go there?

[101] Posted by oscewicee on 12-14-2007 at 12:05 PM • top

Marcus, you’re nit-picking - many conservatives are accused of employing the “slippery slope” argument - and here you’re trotting out another one.  The Anglican Church has been pretty clear for quite a while - read the 39 Articles, the BCP, think about the precious via media (which gets twisted in a TERRIBLE way on the liberal side of things).  We’re not talking about vestments - we’re talking about basic Anglican tenets, traditions, etc.  Let’s not jump on the toboggan for the ride down the slope of everyone’s fears!

Someone remind me not to feed the trolls - I keep forgetting….

[102] Posted by GillianC on 12-14-2007 at 12:07 PM • top

A quote from Schori’s letter to +Iker
<If your course does not change, I shall regrettably be compelled to see that appropriate canonical steps are promptly taken to consider whether you have abandoned the Communion of this Church—by actions and substantive statements, however, they may be phrased—and whether you have committed canonical offences that warrant disciplinary action.>

And a quote from ++Williams

<The Episcopal Church, including a significant number of bishops and some diocesan conventions, have clearly distanced themselves from the prevailing view in their province as expressed in its public policies and declarations. This includes the bishops who have committed themselves to the proposals of the Windsor Report in their Camp Allen conference, as well as others who have looked for more radical solutions. Without elaborating on the practical implications of this or the complicated and diverse politics of the situation, it is obvious that such dioceses and bishops cannot be regarded as deficient in recognisable faithfulness to the common deposit and the common language and practice of the Communion. If their faith and practice are recognised by other churches in the Communion as representing the common mind of the Anglican Church, they are clearly in fellowship with the Communion.>

If nothing else, this letter tells the leadership of the ECUSA that their assertions of abandonment of Communion are groundless

[103] Posted by Old Dad on 12-14-2007 at 12:10 PM • top

Marcus,

you ask:

“But why stop there?”

Indeed. Good question. I don’t think we should.

But in short, because that is the line drawn at Windsor and if non-Windsor compliant bishops go to lambeth, then the communion is without discipline and order and without one of the three marks of the Church. In that case, I think the Canterbury based communion is finished. We are there now it seems.

“If we’re making attendance at the Lambeth Conference contingent on holding this orthodox line, why not add others?”

Yes, let’s do. Starting with virgin birth and bodily resurrection and moving on to the sole mediatorial role of Christ.

“Who decides which doctrine is one which you have to sign up to?”

I suppose we might start with the bible, move along to the Councils and then perhaps we might add the Anglican formularies at some point.

But right now, just the glaringly inadequate Windsor report as accepted by the primates.

[104] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 12:13 PM • top

Oops, first timer.  Will try again.

A quote from Schori to +Iker

If your course does not change, I shall regrettably be compelled to see that appropriate canonical steps are promptly taken to consider whether you have abandoned the Communion of this Church—by actions and substantive statements, however, they may be phrased—and whether you have committed canonical offences that warrant disciplinary action.

and a quote from ++Williams

The Episcopal Church, including a significant number of bishops and some diocesan conventions, have clearly distanced themselves from the prevailing view in their province as expressed in its public policies and declarations. This includes the bishops who have committed themselves to the proposals of the Windsor Report in their Camp Allen conference, as well as others who have looked for more radical solutions. Without elaborating on the practical implications of this or the complicated and diverse politics of the situation, it is obvious that such dioceses and bishops cannot be regarded as deficient in recognisable faithfulness to the common deposit and the common language and practice of the Communion.

If nothing else, this letter tells the leadership of the ECUSA that their assertions of abandonment of Communion are groundless

[105] Posted by Old Dad on 12-14-2007 at 12:15 PM • top

Marcus wrote:

So what to do? He has laid out his belief that the way forward is to have an Opt-In Anglican Covenant. Now, we know full well that many of the bishops, and much of TEC will be unable to opt in to the Covenant. They will, of their own free will and accord, consciously choose to separate themselves. Those bishops and congregations who do sign up to it will, however, be full members of the Communion.

Marcus, I am not convinced that this will be how it plays out.  TEC Bishops (like +Bruno, for example), will say, “SSBs don’t happen in my diocese! Not with my permission!” but they will wink and nod and even encourage the rites.  If it is required for membership in the AC, most of TEC’s bishops will sign a covenant (just as ++Griswald agreed that VGR should not be consecrated and KJS agreed to DeS) so that they will continue to have legitimacy in the eyes of their congregants.

So, yes, it will be a long process. And yes, it will involve talking to people you don’t like, and having massive arguments with them. And, possibly, losing some - though probably (by weight of numbers) winning most. And by the end of the process, there will be clarity. It’s just that it will take time. Let’s try to avoid smashing everything up in the meantime.

Ok. I won’t smash anything.  But I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for clarity, either.

[106] Posted by selah on 12-14-2007 at 12:17 PM • top

Slightly confused, GillianC, no-one is surely suggesting that people who don’t hold to all the 39 articles, or don’t use the BCP properly should be excluded from Lambeth. It isn’t just a slippery slope argument (though, let’s not forget how often the slope is indeed slippery - it is something Conservatives on both sides of the Atlantic should be very well aware of!), it’s that the Anglican Communion has never before vested in one man the ability to say “if you don’t hold the accepted line on x, you are no longer an Anglican”.  And nor should it.

[107] Posted by Marcus on 12-14-2007 at 12:19 PM • top

But Matt, the question is, how will this inquisition be adjudicated? By whom?

You said,

You simply disinvite all who refuse to sign a written declaration that they will not permit same sex blessings to take place in their diocese.

But as Selah said a moment ago,

TEC Bishops (like +Bruno, for example), will say, “SSBs don’t happen in my diocese! Not with my permission!” but they will wink and nod and even encourage the rites.

So how will it be determined that he has actually broken the rules? Would there be a trial? He would surely have the right to defend himself. It would be a lawyer’s paradise. I honestly cannot see how this could be done. It is not feasible.

[108] Posted by Marcus on 12-14-2007 at 12:26 PM • top

For me, the letter was a LOT better than I expected. I did not expect an Iker-like or Duncanesque letter. I am as impatient as most of the other people who have commented thus far, but I also recognize that in talking about the AC, we are referring to a consortium of churches that span the entire globe and encompass many, many millions of people. Nothing is going to happen as quickly as we would like, but this letter offers considerable hope for those (especially in the Global South) who would like to see the Anglican Communion, as a whole, recommit itself to “the Faith once and for all handed down to the Saints.”

The WORST thing that could happen, would be for significant portions of the Global South to NOT ATTENED.

In the words of Jim Morrison, “they’ve got the guns, but we have the numbers…”

Several possible outcomes exist right now—and most of them are pretty awful.

Personally, I would be willing to wait a while longer if I thought that, at the end of the day (or, rather, at the end of the next Lambeth Conference), the orthodox faithful in the Global South and elsewhere were able to reclaim Anglicanism as an authentic expression of orthodox Catholic faith and (through a clearly-worded covenant) decisively declare that the revisionist’s “new thing” has no standing in an Anglican understanding of basic Christianity.

Let TEC go their own way.

I strongly suspect (based on pretty good legal precedent) that the big property disputes going on right now (northern Virginia; Savannah, Georgia; Newport Beach, California; etc.) are actually going to be decided in favor of the orthodox. We will probably lose many of the other property battles. Maybe that will not be such a bad thing; maybe it will be good for us to re-shape an Anglican presence here in North America WITHOUT all of that institutional baggage. Maybe losing many, if not most, of these court battles will keep us humble and remind us what is MOST IMPORTANT.

I think that ALL of the CANA bishops, and all of the AMiA bishops, and all of the uninvited Common Cause bishops should VISIBLY BE IN ENGLAND when Lambeth convenes—holding their own parallel conference, advising and praying for the orthodox at Lambeth, visibly and forcefully reminding everybody at Lambeth that the spiritual and pastoral needs of many, many, many people have been completely disregarded by TEC and the New Westminster crowd.

There has been much speculation in the secular press that Peter Akinola is maneuvering to create an alternate body—to replace what is now termed the Anglican Communion—with himself as the Primate of this new international church. Personally, I think that this is utter nonsense. The suggestion of excommunication at the end of the ABC’s letter seems to me to be directed at THIS idea: that Peter Akinola and his allies are really more interested in creating an alternate institution, rather than working to reform the present Anglican Communion. If Peter Akinola or any of the other Global South bishops boycott Lambeth, it will certainly LOOK to most of the world as if this is true.

In spite of all the stupid language in the letter about ongoing dialogue and professionally facillitated conversations, the simple fact of the matter is that the orthodox have been invited to attend an historic Lambeth Conference. If they attend, their presence will carry much, much, much more weight than the presence of the gnostics from 815… They will have a real opportunity to effect substantial and comprehensive reforms through a Covenant document. What possible good reason could they have for NOT attending?

Again, let me say if: they’ve got the guns, but we have the numbers…

All of us who read and post on Stand Firm—all of the orthodox faithful in North America—should personally re-commit themselves to daily, disciplined, and SACRAFICIAL prayer on behalf of our Church. God is in control; not Rowan Williams.

[109] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-14-2007 at 12:28 PM • top

Someone remind me not to feed the trolls - I keep forgetting….

Marcus is not a troll.  He’s not dropping a blog-bomb and then leaving the scene. He is engaged in a discussion here, and I, for one, appreciate hearing all different viewpoints…not just the ones that agree with me.

Just reading those gets pretty boring.

[110] Posted by selah on 12-14-2007 at 12:28 PM • top

Thanks for that Selah. As it happens I have to leave now as it’s 6:30 in the UK and I need to go home. I’ll try and log in later and see what’s happened to the debate.

[111] Posted by Marcus on 12-14-2007 at 12:34 PM • top

How about the Southern Cone just packing it in with ABC and TEC (not more talks) and forming a new global Anglian Communion?  I think that is where we are headed anyway, or at least I pray it will occur.

[112] Posted by Enlightened on 12-14-2007 at 12:35 PM • top

I like it. +RW yet again proves worthy of my respect.

[113] Posted by eaten_by_chipmunks on 12-14-2007 at 12:36 PM • top

Marcus, neither should one province be able to turn things on its head, despite clear indications that the actions are contrary to the understanding of the rest of the Communion.  It’s like one team of a badminton league deciding that they really are called to play lacrosse, and insisting that they still belong in the badminton league, and insisting that everyone else accept that.  This is not a slippery slope, it is a declaration of what is going on.  The innovations of the TEC are clearly not badminton, and yet they insist on calling themselves badminton players.
I don’t think people are trying to give the AoC the power to give people the boot - arbitrarily and without cause.  I think that we are clarifying that we don’t play badminton with lacrosse sticks (or whatever they are called), and those who want to do so are welcome to play lacrosse elsewhere.

[114] Posted by GillianC on 12-14-2007 at 12:39 PM • top

It has never been necessary to have a long process.  Since at least DeS – as the Primates repeated their demands for the third time in a row, and attached a deadline for good measure – Rowan Williams has mishandled this.  In fact, he’s done it exactly backwards, and he’s doing it again in this letter.

What he should have done is take a hard line on creedal orthodoxy – a low bar, but one PGCCUSA would have tripped over – and Christian moral teaching.  This would have left the Communion mostly unified and caused only the Christianity-dismantling, sexually-obsessed zealots to storm out in indignation.  What’s more, it would have had the effect of causing the mushy episcopal middle of PGCCUSA, wobbling under the influence of the poisonous green gas of heresy that hangs over this province, to throw a cold slug of water in each others’ faces and take their apostolic job seriously again.  This would have made the Communion stronger.

Instead, Archbishop Williams has taken a hard line (relative to himself, of course, and only equal to a wet noodle versus other leadership models) on the faithful that have sought protection from PGCCUSA’s predations.  So what he’s done is take people even he admits in this letter hold to a shared faith and force them out of the Communion.  And, by making it clear the Cavalry isn’t coming, he’s caused that mushy middle to fold to the siren song of the secular, libertine, Christian-hating culture.  Even if the Communion doesn’t outright fracture, this will make it weaker.

The whole thing is nuts.

[115] Posted by Phil on 12-14-2007 at 12:41 PM • top

The AC is over, ended, finished.

[116] Posted by Sir Highmoor on 12-14-2007 at 12:45 PM • top

bluenarrative.

If TEC attends, the BEST possible thing would be for the orthodox primates and bishops not to attend. Attendance would merely add legitimacy to TEC’s defacto full membership in the Communion.

I do not think people are coming to terms with what has happened in this letter. the ABC has permitted TEC to completely escape discipline for the next ten years. TEC is a full constituent member of the canterbury based Anglican Communion because her invitation to lambeth stands. That means that no matter what happens at Lambeth or subsequent to it, no matter what any group of primates say or suggests, even the ABC, the Episcopal Church and every bishop within her save VGR is an Anglican bishop in full Communion with Canterbury for the next 10 years.

This is a complete and utter failure of leadership

[117] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 12:53 PM • top

Is there anything new here? Is there anything we have not heard before? The fabric that has been torn turns out to be nothing more than gossamer and its destruction no great loss.

[118] Posted by Bill McGovern on 12-14-2007 at 12:53 PM • top

He wrote 4367 words. 
And all he said was:
1.  “We have no concensus.”
2.  “TEC did the best they could.”
3.  “Let’s all talk about our misunderstandings, and anxieties, and fears.”
4.  “Oh, don’t forget about that covenant thing.  And it will have enforcement mechanisms, too.  Really.  I mean it this time.”

Don’t anyone hold his breath waiting for those invitations to be withdrawn.

carl

[119] Posted by carl on 12-14-2007 at 12:54 PM • top

Notice also the sense in the letter that the crisis is essentially past and all that remains to do is to be sure that nothing this disruptive happens again.

[120] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 12:55 PM • top

Cathedral curate,

“Gordy,

Revrj is spot on…do you really believe Arianism was defeated in one short meeting at Nicea?  And even though the Fathers rightly declared it heresy, after many many years of struggle, it, in fact, still exists today.  We must stand and pray. “

  Cc, of course Arianism wasn’t defeated in one meeting and of course you realize we’ve had much more than one meeting on this issue. The fathers did indeed declare it heresy and it did indeed continue to exist for years. What did the Fathers do? They distanced themselves from said heresy… exactly the steps we need to take now. And no matter where we are we can pray. :o)

[121] Posted by Gordy on 12-14-2007 at 12:56 PM • top

Marcus - Sorry about the troll remark - I am so used to the swoop and cut out style.  I stand corrected, and appreciate the opportunity to talk things out - or at least get a chance to put thoughts out there.

[122] Posted by GillianC on 12-14-2007 at 12:58 PM • top

I don’t have much to add that hasn’t already been said, usually multiple times before on this thread.  Yet I do want to remind everyone of the very important service BBTM gave us in submitting that long quote from +John Jewel (way back @ 8:35 am).  That learned Reformation bishop rightly underlined the important example of ancient orthodox bishops like Athanasius who refused to attend sham councils dominated by Arians, or called by Arian Emperors determined to get their way.

Still, history never EXACTLY repeats itself.  Lambeth 2008 does represent a new and somewhat unique challenge, and a good argument can be made that the GS bishops ought to attend in force and bend the Conference to their will.  I agree with Greg, however, that first much more pressure ought to be brought to bear on Canterbury to alter the plans for the event to make sure that a decisive outcome will result, namely real discipline of TEC and the most wayward dioceses in Canada (at least New Westminster and Niagara for authorizing SSBs).

But stepping back and taking a look from the long-term perspective, I think this Advent letter, welcome as it is in many ways, once again shows that the current Instruments of Unity or Communion are simply inadequate and unable to deal with the kind of severe crisis we face today.  That is hardly surprising, for they were never designed for more than consultation, and we have never faced a problem of this magnitude as a worldwide fellowship.

Even the proposed Covenant, like this Advent letter, is a case of “too little, too late.”  It reveals the usual problem of long-established institutions, namely maintenance-mode thinking.  The fact is, the Covenant, on which the current Communion-wide Instruments are depending, is a broken reed that can bear very little weight.  For it has no real teeth.  The implied threat of losing the chance for “full participation” in pan-Anglican gatherings is simply MUCH TOO WEAK.  Our foes will happily take the minor slap on the wrist and then bask in the glory of suffering persecution, as all “prophets” do, for their supposedly prophetic ministry.  Much more stringent measures are necessary.

In the end, Canterbury has chosen once again to avoid taking strong and decisive action.  But in so doing, he is merely ceding the initiative to others, especially in the Global South (GS), who will not be so hesitant.  I don’t think he fully realizes how important that is.

As Sarah or any other tennis lover can tell you,  having the chance to serve in tennis is a big advantage.  Likewise, in my own hobby chess, we frequently speak of the importance of “having the initiative” and thus making your opponent react to your moves, instead of vice versa.  That’s why White, which always starts the game, wins well over half the games between equally skilled players (discounting draws).

By choosing once again a delaying tactic, +++Williams is ceding the initiative to others, on both sides.  From now on, the real leadership will therefore come from the GS, and increasingly what Abuja or Kampala does will matter more than what Canterbury does or doesn’t do.  Likewise, Nairobi, Buenos Aires, or Singapore etc.

Bottom line: it is more likely than ever that we will indeed see a New Reformation, and that the AC will inevitably split.  I for one will welcome that development, even while grieving what has been lost.

David Handy+
Advocate of High Commitment, Post-Christendom style Anglicanism
More supportive than ever of the New Reformation (and CCP)

[123] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 12-14-2007 at 12:59 PM • top

” I wish to pursue some professionally facilitated conversations between the 1) leadership of The Episcopal Church and 2) those with whom they are in dispute…......”

And who precisely do you intend to have function as this/these facilitator(s)? How does one facilitate a meeting/discussion between those in the leadership of TEC (heretics & apostates) and those with whom they are in dispute ( defenders of the faith once delivered, the overwhelming majority of the Worldwide Anglican Communion, and those who have and are continuing to practice historical Christianity as it has been understood for over 2000 years? How can these two radically divergent views of the Gospel EVER be united? Answer: THEY CAN’T!!! What more can be gleaned from any more conversations and meetings? Answer: NOTHING!! Let’s get on with the task of restoring the true Anglican Way in the United States, and cease with this endless and futile engagement which leads no where.

[124] Posted by irishanglican on 12-14-2007 at 01:02 PM • top

Has anyone read this far down in the comments?  YADAYADAYADA!!!  Is this a Monte Python palate cleanser for the weekend?  Of course I am not an Anglican so some of the sophistication may have not penetrated me.  At any rate, I can say that VGR, Spong, Greswell, KJS sure are a big burden for the ABC to have to put up with, but it is his choice. Cheers.

[125] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 12-14-2007 at 01:07 PM • top

Peeps+,

I quite concur with your comment, above, and not solely with your observation that

… this is a positive, encouraging letter.

I think to have expected anything dramatically more decisive than a letter along these lines, laying out how the Communion should proceed, was not only unlikely, but unreal in terms of the authority that +Cantuar possesses and in terms of what, in my opinion he has always seen as the ultimate objective, which is (and ought to be), the healing of the breach within the Communion.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[126] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-14-2007 at 01:13 PM • top

Friends,

Please explain what is encouraging about this letter. Bishops who openly defy windsor will attend, the Episcopal Church’s membership in the AC is now utterly secure.

To go on about how “encouraging” this letter might be misses the fact that it reveals our defeat. It’s like admiring the color of the opposing team’s jersey while ignoring the fact that the wide reciever wearing the fetching jersey has just caught the game-winning touchdown pass.

TEC is going to Lambeth.

[127] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 01:21 PM • top

I do not have much more to say about Abp. Williams’s views than I said in   Look Not to Cantuar
or about his attempt to preempt the Primates than Chris Sugden said in
Anglicanism in Twilight.

Just one ironic note. It has been pointed out repeatedly that Rowan Williams dithers and extends the Windsor process into infinity. Yet is it not odd that he does not even bother to respond to the request of the entire CAPA Primates Meeting to postpone Lambeth two years? No, the show must go on! He seems worried about the TEC HOB’s deferring to GC 09, and rightly so. Lambeth ’10 would almost certainly have to deal with some kind of official SSB’s and probably one or more GLBT bishops.

I do not have much patience with his way of dealing with this crisis, but I do think the logic of his piece leads to a final denouement, for there is no way the historic consensus on sexuality is going to change in the next few years, not to mention the Word of God; and there is also no way TEC is going wait much longer to decree that homophobia is a sin whose end-time is now.

[128] Posted by Stephen Noll on 12-14-2007 at 01:22 PM • top

This letter basically established the logic for breaking the AC as currently understood. The orthodox and liberal no longer recognize the Gospel in the works of the other group. But there is no post-modern sop here, the ABC clearly defines the Gospel as that contained in the Scriptures.

Over against this we have orthodox violating polity, but what gets lost is these actions are in REACTION to the liberal rejection of the Gospel.

By elevating the sin against polity to the same level as the sin against the Gospel, the ABC closes off the next logical step: declaring TEC apostate and working to reform or replace it.

[129] Posted by texex on 12-14-2007 at 01:31 PM • top

In showing himself to know what is right, ++Rowan proves himself contemptible in his steadfast refusal to do anything meaningful about it.

[130] Posted by Jeffersonian on 12-14-2007 at 01:35 PM • top

Well, they are up in arms over at the Jakester’s Place, for whatever that is worth.

the snarkster

[131] Posted by the snarkster on 12-14-2007 at 01:38 PM • top

TEC is going to Lambeth’ .. and, in other news, Vatican issues note about evangelization

Serendipity is such a great word.

[132] Posted by tdunbar on 12-14-2007 at 01:40 PM • top

I liked the Abp’s definition of what the Anglican Communion is; his first few paragraphs were wonderful, and gave me hope as I read them.  But when I got to the paragraphs describing current conditions and how to deal with them, my hopes were deflated.

Abp Williams wants us to talk out our differences.  If they were second or third order differences, perhaps we could.  But we are not dealing with secondary differences, where a compromise may be reached or an agreement made to live with the differences.  Rather, we are dealing with primary, foundational issues.

If we all recognized that we differ at a basic level, perhaps we could reach an agreement to separate into two different organizations.  However, there are many who do not recognize that we differ at a foundational level and there are many on “the other side” who know we differ at a basic level, but who think that reasserters preach a false Gospel and so want us to be forced out of existence.  Some are willing to be patient; others want us dead as quickly as possible.

Meanwhile, they preach a “gospel” we know to be false.  Jesus is downplayed to merely a special man with a contact point with God that anyone else may learn how to have; the cross is emptied of its power (Bp Alison used to talk about those “who hate the blood”), and the Holy Spirit is nothing but a mood swing of some sort.

Our Worthy Opponents (and sometimes not so worthy… but then again, are we all perfect?) are willing to tolerate our presence, as long as we merely talk about what we believe and do not insist that it is the only view possible.  But they hate what is a joy and delight to us, and they want to supplant the historic Gospel with their false gospel, and get rid of us because we stand as a real threat to their goals.  They are like a parasite; they can produce nothing of value out of their own system of beliefs, but need to take the vitality found in evangelical and Anglo-Cathedral faith and suck the life out of it.  (I find it very odd that they can believe that the gospel we proclaim is not the real gospel, or at least is not the whole gospel, but at the same time they say that they need our perspective —for what, I cannot imagine.)

Abp Williams thinks that we can talk our way out of a clash.  I would hope that a man of his intelligence would be able to see that we are dealing with foundational and not secondary matters—but I guess we are all blind somewhere.

[133] Posted by AnglicanXn on 12-14-2007 at 01:42 PM • top

I am still concern about why he put the invitations to Lambeth on the same level as Invitation to the cross and Salvation (big S) unless he sees this Lambeth granting some type of salvation (little s) to someone.Or is it really all about who is or is not in communion.

It seems too much as a threat or a statement for it to be an accident or Blunder. I think he wrote and rewrote this until he got it to say just what he meant it to say. Only he does not communicate (no pun) well with a non British audience. We have to wait for the primate responses: Venebles, Gomez, etc. (didn’t know how many ++ to give_. I am sure 815 will spin soon.

[134] Posted by Houseownedbythedog3 on 12-14-2007 at 01:43 PM • top

I found THIS the most interesting:

The matter is further complicated by the fact that several within The Episcopal Church, including a significant number of bishops and some diocesan conventions, have clearly distanced themselves from the prevailing view in their province as expressed in its public policies and declarations. This includes the bishops who have committed themselves to the proposals of the Windsor Report in their Camp Allen conference, as well as others who have looked for more radical solutions. Without elaborating on the practical implications of this or the complicated and diverse politics of the situation, it is obvious that such dioceses and bishops cannot be regarded as deficient in recognisable faithfulness to the common deposit and the common language and practice of the Communion. If their faith and practice are recognised by other churches in the Communion as representing the common mind of the Anglican Church, they are clearly in fellowship with the Communion. The practical challenge then becomes to find ways of working out a fruitful, sustainable and honest relation for them both with their own province and with the wider Communion.

Am I wrong in thinking that this gives a pass to dioceses such as San Joaquin and says, yep, you ARE in Communion, no matter what the others say?

Also, he was CLEARLY ticked about the spin rumors indicating he would invite Robinson after all.

I dunno. I’m seeing the creation of a parallel promise here.

[135] Posted by teatime on 12-14-2007 at 01:51 PM • top

The most recent posts by Jeffersonian, texex, Dr. Noll, and Fr. Kennedy ought to be mailed to Archbishop Williams with a letter that begins:

Dear Archbishop Williams,

We (orthodox Anglicans) hereby request that you no longer attempt to fool us into thinking you will actually do anything to relieve us of the persecutions wrought by the very ones you personally pointed out have torn the fabric of the (Anglican) Communion at its deepest level.  We are not dupes.

We also submit that it is high time to defend the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints (Jude 3).  Care to join us?

[136] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 12-14-2007 at 01:52 PM • top

++ABCs inaction and recognition of the tension is action in itself. If he cannot denounce TECs actions, he has no authority to prohibit border crossings and full establishment of an alternate Anglican Communion in Provinces where the Church has been hijacked by poliical operations.

This letter is good news, because it recognizes the innovations to be as troublesome as the border crossings. The liberals have had their opportunity. Now it is time for the orthodox two establish their innovations for the next 20 years or so.

You know, the Church is not headed by those invited to a tea party.

[137] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-14-2007 at 01:54 PM • top

Matt+,

I’m still pondering this letter; I’ll probably write something more at length on my own blog.  However, in response to your question, “What’s positive here?” I see a few points right away:

1 - It is a fairly honest assessment of the situation, with the single (but important) exception that he does not seem to understand just how toxic the situation on the ground in North America really is.

2 - He appears to be willing to speak to individual bishops and ask if they are really willing to work towards certain specified goals, goals that, even should all TEC bishops show up, will have them outgunned and outmaneuvered, IF all Global South bishops show up.

I have underlined in my letter of invitation that acceptance of the invitation must be taken as implying willingness to work with those aspects of the Conference’s agenda that relate to implementing the recommendations of Windsor, including the development of a Covenant. The Conference needs of course to be a place where diversity of opinion can be expressed, and there is no intention to foreclose the discussion - for example - of what sort of Covenant document is needed. But I believe we need to be able to take for granted a certain level of willingness to follow through the question of how we avoid the present degree of damaging and draining tension arising again. I intend to be in direct contact with those who have expressed unease about this, so as to try and clarify how deep their difficulties go with accepting or adopting the Conference’s agenda.

3 - He makes that point that invitation is not a “certificate of orthodoxy.”  He is not, as so many are saying, kicking the can down the road. He is merely saying the obvious, namely that, given the lack of clarity of New Orleans and of the response to New Orleans, then the next logical step is to try to draft the Covenant so that we can have a common reference point.

4 - He appears to be saying that, if the bishops of TEC are going to continue to hide behind “polity,” then, ahem, maybe something is wrong with the polity.  Sometimes it is a victory, however small, to get people to recognize the obvious.

In other words, he may (may, may, may) be offering the Global South a chance to achieve a victory at Lambeth 08 just as they did at Lambeth 98—-but the price is that they have to share the same breathing space with bishops from TEC for at least one more time.

As I said, there are aspects of this letter that, had it been written in 2002 instead of 200y, might have saved us all a lot of trouble.  If it doesn’t work, it will be not because it is wrong, but because it is too little, too late.

[138] Posted by Id rather not say on 12-14-2007 at 01:54 PM • top

The “coming to Lambeth = cross” is not, I think, “coming to Lambeth = salvation” that some are finding so insulting.  It is “not coming to Lambeth = pride.” 

I don’t know if I agree, but I think that is his point.

[139] Posted by Id rather not say on 12-14-2007 at 01:57 PM • top

Well, they are up in arms over at the Jakester’s Place, for whatever that is worth.

We must be reading a different Jake.  The Jakeblog I read had revisionists sniffing because ++Rowan has yet to give full blessing to leather vestments and anointing the newly baptized with KY Jelly, but otherwise they’re pleased as punch that the gabfest will continue while the routing of the orthodox proceeds.

[140] Posted by Jeffersonian on 12-14-2007 at 02:02 PM • top

I agree with much that has been said in criticism of the Archbishop’s statement. But it’s interesting to see Father Jake’s interpretation:

“Dr. Williams has chosen to support those who would exclude others from the Church based on the questionable translation of seven verses from scripture. The concrete act which exemplifies his decision to support that position is his insistence on continuing to exclude Bp. Robinson from Lambeth. He seems to not recognize that by barring Bp. Robinson, he has silenced the most qualified representative of those being persecuted in the Church today. In so doing, it is Dr. Williams who has expressed a ‘refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection.’”

[141] Posted by Paula on 12-14-2007 at 02:04 PM • top

Stay focussed!
The Primates need to insist on a Primates Meeting to be held by March 2007.
Don’t get distracted by all the words in this letter.
The one action needed now is a Primates Meeting.
All words devoted to analyzing this are distractions.
Do not buy into the obfuscation and delay.

[142] Posted by Deja Vu on 12-14-2007 at 02:06 PM • top

I’m gonna come back and read this whole post. For now, the portion that was excerpted on the notices to SF members left me encouraged. It appeared from that snippet that the new arrangements faithful anglicans are making have not been dismissed out of hand. If this is true, even in thought, this is huge.

[143] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 12-14-2007 at 02:07 PM • top

From “Boring Bloke” we read:

” If TEC is excommunicated, it has to be by Lambeth. If it is to be accepted, then it has to be by Lambeth. Saying that this will last for ever is wrong. If Lambeth takes a decisive stand one way or the other, then if he is true to his ecclesiology, Rowan Williams will have to accept the decision. It always has been that way, for the past several years.”

If this is the case then Lambeth is worth attending.  Thøse who already consider themselves separated may want to reconsider their
decision to boycott/not attend/whatever.  If this is the case then it is time to count bishops.  It might also be a good time for Nigeria to consecrate another two dozen ‘official’ Nigerian bishops.

[144] Posted by Bill C on 12-14-2007 at 02:11 PM • top

IRNS, I agree with your take on the “coming to Lambeth=the cross” in Rowan’s letter. I think he is saying that for some, and maybe many,  Lambeth may be a dreadful sort of meeting, echoing the thoughts of St. Basil, but that denying such a humble chore would be contrary to our call to the much more humbling chore of carrying our cross.

I don’t think Basil would have gone that far with him. Something can be humbling and also unproductive.

[145] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-14-2007 at 02:11 PM • top

A lot to digest, and indeed I would have preferred to read that the ABoC was calling a primates meeting for Jan 2, but it does include some meaty stuff, and generally reinforces the orthodox position. My choice for most important passage:

This includes the bishops who have committed themselves to the proposals of the Windsor Report in their Camp Allen conference, as well as others who have looked for more radical solutions. Without elaborating on the practical implications of this or the complicated and diverse politics of the situation, it is obvious that such dioceses and bishops cannot be regarded as deficient in recognisable faithfulness to the common deposit and the common language and practice of the Communion. If their faith and practice are recognised by other churches in the Communion as representing the common mind of the Anglican Church, they are clearly in fellowship with the Communion. (emphasis mine)

  This seems to me to be a pretty clear indication that a) Windsor dioceses will be recognized by the Communion as members even if TEC as a whole chooses to walk away and (more important) b) Canterbury is acknowledging that he is in communion with “others who have looked for more radical solutions”, which I assume means San Jaoquin, Common Cause, CANA, etc.  This is the most direct expression we have seen that regardless of TEC’s spin, the ABoC considers people in those groups to be not only Anglicans, but indeed members of the Communion.
TJ

[146] Posted by tjmcmahon on 12-14-2007 at 02:11 PM • top

j.m.c.,

Thank you for the link to Harding’s post on T19, and I eagerly add my prayers for the fulfillment of his

… hope that those on the reasserter side will give this initiative some time to work.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[147] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-14-2007 at 02:18 PM • top

Father Kennedy,  The orthodox bishops attending Lambeth do NOT have to follow the conference agenda set by the ABC. They can use the meeting to state LOUDLY and CLEARLY and unequivocably that TEC and the New Westminster crowd are NOW no longer “de facto members of the Anglican Communion. They have the numbers, they have the clout, and they have the God of Abraham, Isaac, and jacob on their side—they can SET THEIR OWN AGENDA at the meeting. They can attend, and physically present in the rich historical context of the seat of English Christianity, assume leadership of the Communion—whether Rowan Williams likes it or not. They can, in effect, hijack Lambeth, to use a crude term—make it THEIR OWN CONFERENCE and SET THEIR OWN AGENDA… What would Rowan Williams be able to do if, once gathered together in England, the orthodox bishops FORTHRIGHTLY and PUBLICLY REBUKED the gnostic heresies of 815? If nothing else, this is an opportunity for orthodox Anglicans to bear a powerful witness to the substance of the Gospel; to lay out in plain language—for all the world to see—the authentic content of the Gospel that we all desperately cling to… Rowan Williams may, in fact, envision Lambeth as a “tea party” (with ongoing dialogue, endless discussion, and “facillitated” conversations), but I see no reason why EVERY ORTHODOX BISHOP should not attend Lambeth and use it as a pulpit from which to BOLDLY PROCLAIM the Gospel… It seems to me that there are several stories in the Book of Acts where the earliest disciples of Jesus used unlikely settings to do just this sort of thing. It also seems to me that God clearly rewarded their daring under such circumstances of persecution with many dramatic conversions… This is an historic opportunity for the orthodox to assume the leadership that Rowan Williams has failed to provide… I am baffled that nobody eolse seems to realize this…

[148] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-14-2007 at 02:18 PM • top

So here’s Rowan’s Advent epistle
There’s meat here and a whole lot of gristle
But when I cut through the fat
For a plan I find that
Though it’s dark he’s intending to whistle.

[149] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-14-2007 at 02:19 PM • top

IRNS,

I acknowledge those points are in the letter, but I am not sure I see them as anything more than pleasing to the eye. A victorious Lambeth 08 will prove to be as meaningless as a victorious lambeth 98 because there is no mechanism apart from lambeth invitations to determine who is and who is not in communion. So if you come away with a resolution in 08 saying those who do not abide by lambeth 1.10 are no longer in communion with Canterbury, we would still have to wait ten years to see whether the resolution would be upheld in 2016. Until then TEC remains a constituent member of the AC given their participation in lambeth 2008.

In other words, they’ve won by simply recieving and acting on the invitation.

[150] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 02:19 PM • top

But I believe we need to be able to take for granted a certain level of willingness to follow through the question of how we avoid the present degree of damaging and draining tension arising again. I intend to be in direct contact with those who have expressed unease about this, so as to try and clarify how deep their difficulties go with accepting or adopting the Conference’s agenda.

This would seem to indicate in polite English that those bishops who have stated there should be no covenant, or who have allowed SSBs may soon be getting a long distance call from the UK.  So, clearly he considers the question of whether a covenant is needed to be already settled in the affirmative.  And that Windsor is essentially a “given.”

[151] Posted by tjmcmahon on 12-14-2007 at 02:21 PM • top

bluenarrative,

IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE if every orthodox bishop attended and we came out with an amazingly brilliant and hands down victory. If TEC attends lambeth then TEC is a constituent member of the AC for the next ten years and they will blast that from the rooftops and they will be 100% right.

[152] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 02:22 PM • top

“Father Jake’s interpretation”
In so doing, it is Dr. Williams who has expressed a ‘refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection.’”

Fr. Jake believes in the resurrection?

I truly beleve Dr Williams is looking out for the best interests of Dr Williams and his place in history.  He can’t be stupid.  He has to know this is not going under a rug so he tries to predetermine where and when and by whom the battle will be fought (Lambeth) and to come out looking like he really tried.  It is the best review he can hope for from history.

[153] Posted by Elizabeth on 12-14-2007 at 02:22 PM • top

Bill C,  I like your idea about consecrating some new bishops. Unfortunately, the invitations have already gone out. No more will be forthcoming. I do think, however, that EVERY UNINVITED ORTHODOX BISHOP should be present in England when Lambeth convenes. As a PR tool (something 815 understands very well) their presence would be magnificent.

[154] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-14-2007 at 02:27 PM • top

Although addressed to the Primates, this letter cuts the Primates out of the loop. The Primates wrote the Dar es Salaam Communique and they must insist that they need to meet to assess the response before any meeting of bishops at Lambeth.
The Primates are being sidestepped by this letter and must respond to assert their own authority as one of the four Instruments of Unity.
The ABC is undercutting their authority in two ways:
1) by ignoring the request for a Primates Meeting and developing his own method of assessing TEC’s response to Dar, and
2) by deciding which bishops under each Primate’s authority may attend Lambeth.

[155] Posted by Deja Vu on 12-14-2007 at 02:39 PM • top

“IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE if every orthodox bishop attended and we came out with an amazingly brilliant and hands down victory.” —Matt Kennedy+

I realize the ABC’s statement is disappointing in several ways, but I don’t understand the response above.  It would matter to everyone I know for the orthodox to triumph at Lambeth!

[156] Posted by Paula on 12-14-2007 at 02:40 PM • top

Paula,

It would make no difference because attendance is victory in this game. So whether or not we passed 10,000 orthodox resolutions and declared TEC a cult at Lambeth, TEC could depart claiming to be fully in communion with Canterbury and would be absolutely correct in the claim.

That is the problem. It means that attending lambeth in whatever capacity only serves to legitimize the event that will give TEC Communion standing

[157] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 02:43 PM • top

Bluenarrative,

Yeah! It might be better to be outside with the press and in the victim role. The orthodox can also work to showcase the Church in Africa towards changing the images manufactured by the liberals.

[158] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-14-2007 at 02:53 PM • top

Our meeting in Lambeth is quite dear to us
So why should division so weary us?
It speaks to our fitness
To give the world a clear witness
If we’re meeting, can Sin be that serious?

[159] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-14-2007 at 02:55 PM • top

The communion is split.

The reappraisers will continue to do what they have been doing, most likely making many things (SSB) official at GC 2009.

The reasserters will continue to leave and seek oversight from friendly provinces.

Those on the fence will slowly fall to one side or the other as the split widens.  The property will be divided up by the civil courts.  As time passes each side will have plenty of time to rebuild or squander whatever material assets they lose or gain.

By admitting that what the reappraisers are doing is wrong, but taking no action, Rowan+++ has abdicated his role as leader and is just a commentator.  No matter who gets invited to Lambeth or what the ABC says, each side will claim to be the true expression of Anglicanism.  I think it would be nice, and worth some effort to try to and get TEC’s actions condemned by the current Anglican Communion, however, in the end it won’t make much difference either way.  I think how we organize and work together is more important than what happens at Lambeth.

[160] Posted by JustOneVoice on 12-14-2007 at 02:58 PM • top

I firmly believe that one of the “money quotes” in this letter is this paragraph (in particular the parts to which I have added emphasis):

A somewhat complicating factor in the New Orleans statement has been the provision that any kind of moratorium is in place until General Convention provides otherwise. Since the matters at issue are those in which the bishops have a decisive voice as a House of Bishops in General Convention, puzzlement has been expressed as to why the House should apparently bind itself to future direction from the Convention. If that is indeed what this means, it is in itself a decision of some significance. It raises a major ecclesiological issue, not about some sort of autocratic episcopal privilege but about the understanding in The Episcopal Church of the distinctive charism of bishops as an order and their responsibility for sustaining doctrinal standards. Once again, there seems to be a gap between what some in The Episcopal Church understand about the ministry of bishops and what is held elsewhere in the Communion, and this needs to be addressed.

I am also quite curious as to why no one else here seems to have commented on this observation by +Cantuar.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[161] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-14-2007 at 02:58 PM • top

Matt+:  I don’t understand.  Many commenters above have said the Lambeth is the only place where decisions can be made.  That is either right or wrong.  If correct, then there is every reason to attend since I am sure that the orthodox are in the majority and a major blow can delivered to the liberal movement in the US and UK and elsewhere. They will walk the plank If incorrect, then the AC is finally fractured.  There would be no incentive or validity to pursue any further ‘listening’ or discussion.

Bill

[162] Posted by Bill C on 12-14-2007 at 02:59 PM • top

Does anyone here have the “ear” of a ortho/friendly Bishop?

If you, could you check something out for us.  In the ABC’s letter is the following:

“acceptance of the invitation must be taken as implying willingness to work with those aspects of the Conference’s agenda that relate to implementing the recommendations of Windsor, including the development of a Covenant.”

Is that truly in the “invite”, and if so, there may be quite a few bishops of TEC who truly should stay home considering their open “statements”.. 

Just askin,
Grannie Gloria

[163] Posted by Grandmother on 12-14-2007 at 03:03 PM • top

Matt+,

You wrote

IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE if every orthodox bishop attended and we came out with an amazingly brilliant and hands down victory. If TEC attends lambeth then TEC is a constituent member of the AC for the next ten years and they will blast that from the rooftops and they will be 100% right.

But the ABC wrote

I also intend to convene a small group of primates and others, whose task will be, in close collaboration with the primates, the Joint Standing Committee, the Covenant Design Group and the Lambeth Conference Design Group, to work on the unanswered questions arising from the inconclusive evaluation of the primates to New Orleans and to take certain issues forward to Lambeth. This will feed in to the discussions at Lambeth about Anglican identity and the Covenant process; I suggest that it will also have to consider whether in the present circumstances it is possible for provinces or individual bishops at odds with the expressed mind of the Communion to participate fully in representative Communion agencies, including ecumenical bodies. Its responsibility will be to weigh current developments in the light of the clear recommendations of Windsor and of the subsequent statements from the ACC and the Primates’ Meeting; it will thus also be bound to consider the exact status of bishops ordained by one province for ministry in another.

In other words, whether or not TEC is still in the AC is precisely on the agenda of this group in the run-up to Lambeth, and will in fact be a point of discussion at Lambeth.  Williams leaves open the possibility (in Williams-speak—-a difficult language, I know—-he even may be suggesting the likelihood) that TEC will be assigned a reduced status either before or during Lambeth.  He is , of course, trying to be even-handed with the last clause in my quote above—-but what else would you expect?

In addition, note that his comments on foreign bishops seems to be directed to such enterprises as AMiA and CANA.  It requires no “bishops ordained by one province for ministry in another” for a diocese (e.g. San Joaquin) to join another province.

I’m not trying to put lipstick on a pig here; I have reservations about this whole thing too—-deep reservations.  I’m just trying to respond to your “where’s the positive” question.

[164] Posted by Id rather not say on 12-14-2007 at 03:04 PM • top

Bill C,

No, it can be right in one way and wrong in another. Yes, Lambeth is the only place where all the bishops of the Communion meet together to make decisions with regard to the communion. But no, they cannot expel anyone from Communion. The only person who can do that is the ABC through his power of invitation. Those who are invited to Lambeth are in the Anglican communion even if every single bishop voted otherwise because membership in the Communion is determined by Communion with Canterbury and communion with Canterbury is determined by invitation…that’s why who is invited and who is not is such a big deal and it is also why ir really does not matter what is decided there if TEC goes, because regardless, she will have won.

[165] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 03:04 PM • top

* The common acknowledgement that the first and great priority of each local Christian community is to communicate the Good News. When we are able to recognise biblical faithfulness and authentic ministry in one another, the relation of communion pledges us to support each other’s efforts to win people for Christ and to serve the world in his Name. Communion thus means the sharing of resources and skills in order to enable one another to proclaim and serve in this way. It is in this context that we must think about the present crisis, which is in significant part a crisis about whether we can fully, honestly and gratefully recognise these gifts in each other.

Despite all his bloviations, ++Rowan slipped up and let the cat out of the bag in this one statement. The above is the issue and what the struggle has been about since before GC 2003. The point is that many provinces of the Anglican Communion did <strong>not</storng> recognize that the Episcopal Chuich of the US of A was being “biblically faithful.” Tht has been the crux of the matter and all of Dr. Williams’ delays, obfuscations, and dithering have not altered that fact. All his actions have done is delayed any kind of concrete decision by the rest of the Communion.
The sad fact is that without US money, the cushy jobs of most of those in the Anglican Communion Office would be no more. Those apparatchiks have been straining mightily to preserve their patrimony.  Anything else ++Rowan has to say in this missive is designed to cover up this stark fact. This is one of the reasons that ++Rowan is delaying any concrete decisions. It might mean that the money stream from the US might dry up.

[166] Posted by Allen Lewis on 12-14-2007 at 03:08 PM • top

Father Matt, couldn’t Lambeth itself declare TEC in some sense out of Communion? That way they attend only to be whacked with a ruler.

[167] Posted by Andrewesman on 12-14-2007 at 03:09 PM • top

Matt:
Then the orthodox should not go and the AC is fractured.

[168] Posted by Bill C on 12-14-2007 at 03:10 PM • top

The only person who can do that is the ABC through his power of invitation.

But Matt, he will never do that on his own.  He requires the cover of Lambeth—-in fact, I think he believes he needs it, and not just politically.

[169] Posted by Id rather not say on 12-14-2007 at 03:10 PM • top

I disagree, Matt.  ISTM there is some set of actions - we can argue about what they have to be - that will make Lambeth worthwhile.  If Lambeth were to pronounce PGCCUSA’s beliefs as “anathema” (all of them - not just the fixation on sexual libertinism, but the heretical christology, the belief that the Resurrection was just a warm fuzzy mass delusion, etc.), remove it from the ACC, remove Schori from the Primates meetings, take it off the mailing list for all future correspondence, and so on - PGCCUSA can spin itself as “in communion” all it wants, but it will be kinda hollow.  I mean, I can keep saying until I’m blue in the face that I’m a Virginia Tech student because I went there many years ago, but they still aren’t going to let me in to eat at the dining hall.

And, a clear repudiation of PGCCUSA’s cacodoxy - again, all of it - is going to sting.  Trust me - they will not be able to live it down.  It will have positive consequences for evangelism by faithful Anglicans here versus those trying to sell PGCCUSA’s warped message.  That’s not nothing.

[170] Posted by Phil on 12-14-2007 at 03:12 PM • top

INRS,

The seeming meaning of the text you quote is, I think, precisely the problem. It seems that this group will feed its conclusions into the discussion at Lambeth. Any decision to be made will, apparently, bear on the circumstances subsequent to Lambeth…not before. Notice that among the agencies and councils, Lambeth is not mentioned. Why? Because he has already indicated in this letter that he intends to keep the invitations he has already made on the table.

And that is the ballgame.

Now, whatever this council decides, will be subject to discussion and implementation after 2008…and we will, once more, be waiting for the next Lambeth to see whether or not what was decided at this Lambeth will be followed and TEC can claim, once more, full membership.

[171] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 03:12 PM • top

The best summary we take from Jeffersonian:  “...the gabfest will continue while the routing of the orthodox proceeds.” 

Another opportuniity to be decisive either way was steered around.  There was no need for so many words except for wiggle room.  +Rowan is either continuing to stall for more time, or he is in serious denial over the state of the Body of Christ located in “The Episcopal Church” (and beyond).  Isn’t the definition of insantiy to keep doing the same things over and over and expect different results?  TEC and +KJS have said publicly they will never stop.  There is no respect nor room for the orthodox position in TEC.  We don’t know what planet +Rowan is on if he thinks otherwise.  Another meeting is not going to make any difference.  He seems to have such a profound respect of the “effort” TEC has made in its “clarifications” - did he even read all of the statements that have come out of TEC, the HOB, etc. contradicting and refuting any statement that implied submission to 1.10 or Windsor or B033?  Yet his hand in the Panel of Reference Report and the JSC report coupled with his use of the Delphi technique to deflect TEC’s position and responsibility to the rest of the Communion speaks even more loudly than the words written here.
What the +ABC needs to do is either say yes or no to TEC.  It’s simple.  Because this controversy is about Scripture, there is going to be fall-out either way because the issues are about the authority of Scripture.  Either you strive to meet God on His terms or you don’t.  But you can’t have it both ways. 

Why hasn’t the +ABC said to +KJS, “You agreed to the DES which said the lawsuits must stop.  Stop the lawsuits or you will not be in the Anglican Communion.”  Or, “Where’s the Primates’ Pastoral Scheme, Katherine?”  Where is the protection for the Orthodox for the +ABC?  From the Instruments of Unity?  It simply does not exist.  Yet she is invited and bishops who are faithful to Scripture are not.  Another meeting?  We say no.  Enough.

...“What the +ABC needs to do is either say yes or no to TEC.”  By not standing up and asking where is the adherence to DES by TEC, and not giving clear approval or disapproval, it’s our opinion that the +ABC has said yes to TEC.

[172] Posted by The Lakeland Two on 12-14-2007 at 03:17 PM • top

Phil,

Even in your scenario (and Andrewsman) we would still be forced to wait ten years to see whether the decision reached at Lambeth 2008 would be enacted in Lambeth 2016. If you have a liberal ABC, he/she could undo everything with a simple invitation.

[173] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 03:21 PM • top

Father Kennedy,

Your statement to Paula that

So whether or not we passed 10,000 orthodox resolutions and declared TEC a cult at Lambeth, TEC could depart claiming to be fully in communion with Canterbury and would be absolutely correct in the claim.

seems to me to be true if, and only if, all three of the following also prove true:

(1) Lambeth 2008 concludes without the formal adopotion and publication of a determination, endorsed by a majority of the attendees including +Rowan, that TEC is no longer in full communion with Canterbury, with appropriate consequences attached thereto;

(2) an Anglican Covenant, of suitable robustness, is not adopted within some period of time significantly less than ten years from the conclusion of Lambeth 2008, to which TEC accedes in word and action, or if a decision is taken not to pursue such a covenant, and;

(3) the Primates of the AC fail to exercise their responsibilities as an Instrument of Unity by failing to impose what discipline they can on TEC within a reasonable time following Lambeth 2008.

Viewed from a somewhat different standpoint, if the Anglican Communion is potentially worth belonging to, then is it not sensible for those insisting upon orthodoxy to attend Lambeth once more, intent on doing what can be done to impose consequences, before being faced with the necessity to deal with this on a Province by Province basis at some later time? I would humbly suggest that if it is not worth doing that, then it is not worth being a part of the Communion in the first instance. Those things which are worth having are worth defending, at least within the limits of what action can be justly and morally taken, and subject to one’s ability to so act.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[174] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-14-2007 at 03:25 PM • top

But couldn’t that happen in 2018 anyway?  Even if they were disinvited now?

[175] Posted by LBStringer on 12-14-2007 at 03:26 PM • top

Here is a good exercise for ya:
Carefully go back and review this letter and count the number of times the old can is once more kicked further down the road .......

[176] Posted by Anglican Observer on 12-14-2007 at 03:28 PM • top

I guess, Matt, but the reverse is true, also.  If Rowan threw the bums out, a liberal ABC could still unilaterally undo the whole thing in 2016.  OTOH, the liberal ABC can never undo a series of anathemas pronounced at Lambeth.

Anybody that has spent time trying to deal with the reappraisers knows the one thing that drives them into a rage is the suggestion that their beliefs have passed outside of Christian teaching.  Personally, I would count it as a great victory if Tom Woodward were no longer able to pop in here occasionally and ramble on in the same sentence about how orthodox TEC is for thinking the Virgin birth is a fabrication, but we know better because the Holy Spirit told us so, etc.  I’d love to be able to say, “Hey Tom, Lambeth x.aa through x.zz said you’re not.”

[177] Posted by Phil on 12-14-2007 at 03:30 PM • top

Some thoughts:

1.  Read from the revisionist perspective, this letter is a disaster.
2.  This will further radicalize the hard left to take action to rid themselves of the Anglican Communion.
3.  This might awaken a few of the institutional liberals, with the carrot for their staying in the Anglican Communion.  It’s probably too late for them, but they’ll now try to claim Windsor status (Howard, Lee, etc.)
4.  This should be a strong encouragement for the CCP to ask for recognition before Lambeth and obtain it from a majority of the primates.  That recognition should be of the CCP as the ONLY Anglican franchise in America.  Those should be the “facts on the ground” before Lambeth: a majority of the primates having derecognized TEC as the legitimate Anglican church.
5.  It doesn’t look like Genie boy will be going as bishop, does it?  That may itself now prompt some revisionists to boycott.
6.  The orthodox need to flood Lambeth, control it, and ensure the result it clear.  As they did at Dar es Salaam.  You can win invites for the bishops who weren’t invited while at the conference, and they can be there ready to be ushered in.

I read this as a rejection of all that TEC has been doing, a rejection of their obsfucation, and a signal that their place in the Communion and even as Anglicans is hardly a sure thing.  I read this as an opportunity for the orthodox to start driving the agenda, and driving it hard, so that Lambeth becomes a rout for the revisionists.  It will be interesting how they read this: I don’t see how they can read this as anything but a terrible defeat.

[178] Posted by VaAnglican on 12-14-2007 at 03:31 PM • top

Matt Kennedy wrote:

...membership in the Communion is determined by Communion with Canterbury and communion with Canterbury is determined by invitation…

It seems to me that the hope of the next Lambeth conference is to change this to where Communion will be determined by adherence to the Covenant.  If this is what is to happen shouldn’t the Orthodox try to shape it.

[179] Posted by JustOneVoice on 12-14-2007 at 03:42 PM • top

My take after reading the letter twice, is this.
It starts out well by strictly defining what it means to be an Anglican in full communion.
Then it weakens by giving TEC pretty much of a pass on the fall out from Nawlins.  While mentioning the contradictory comments by certain revisionist bishops vaguely, he doesn’t call thjem or TEC on the contradictions.  Then he calls all participants at Nawlins as Holy, implying honesty and faith in all of them towards the greater good of the AC.  Given the contradictory statements, this is hard to fathom, other than pure Christian charity.
The letter weakens further IMO, by not clearly affirming the actions of the GS to help to distressed parishes here.
Then the letter springs mortal leaks in the hull, by calling for meetings, more meetings and even, God help us, *facilitated* meetings where the discussions can be directed to a pre-decided conclusion.
Finally, the letter goes onto the rocks and completely breaks up, when it calls for full attendance at Lambeth or those not in attendance are rejecting the cross and resurrection, effectively excommunicating them.
I think that it is the death knell for Lambeth.
Other than that, it was marvelous, erudite, and insofar as its thrust is concerned, closely reasoned.

[180] Posted by Scotsreb on 12-14-2007 at 03:47 PM • top

“So whether or not we passed 10,000 orthodox resolutions and declared TEC a cult at Lambeth, TEC could depart claiming to be fully in communion with Canterbury and would be absolutely correct in the claim.” —Matt+

I don’t necessarily agree with this expectation that a jubilant TEC would emerge from a Lambeth where the orthodox are triumphant.  If the orthodox really had decisive victories at Lambeth, I believe that TEC zealots would try to remove the Episcopal Church from the Anglican Communion.  At the present, TEC is trying to appropriate Lambeth by exporting its own viewpoint (and wealth), but this American church will not take it well when it loses.  Already, it’s not taking it well that the Archbishop’s letter does not support the American “new thing.”  I don’t underestimate TEC’s instinct for rebellion and doing its own thing.

[181] Posted by Paula on 12-14-2007 at 03:47 PM • top

I don’t get all the consternation, this is better than should have been expected.  Did anybody really expect a concrete final decision?  The ABC (rightly) values conciliarity, and it’s about all that he has the real power to do, anyway. 

That doesn’t make me happy, and I still face the problem that my family and my parish can’t/won’t (it’s a mixed motive) wait around for the desired peaceful and orderly conclusion that seems to me to be hinted at in this letter.  But my own admited impatience does not make him wrong or ineffectual.

Who cares if TEC “wins”?  I’m not playing a game.  But even if the GS bishops boycott, TEC still attends and thus “wins”.  So let’s stay in the no-whining zone and make the best of it—that being (minimally) a chance to be Stephen before the sanhedrin.  There is nothing to be gained by a boycott, and everything to win, even if the odds are exceedingly long.  (As an aside, I think that if the ABC were to publish an open letter in 2009 that says “I agree with the Communion that we can no longer recognize TEC and its bishops as being in communion”, well that pretty much means they’re no longer in communion!)

So, I’ll mosey on down to Comon Cause soon, and hope that in the fullness of time, the instruments of the communion will recognize us.  And if not, oh well, we’ll carry on without the “Anglican(TM)” brand, I suppose.

[182] Posted by Connecticutian on 12-14-2007 at 03:52 PM • top

Sorry, that “There is nothing to be gained by a boycott, and everything to win, even if the odds are exceedingly long” SHOULD be “There is nothing to be gained by a boycott, and everything to win BY ATTENDING, even if the odds are exceedingly long.”

[183] Posted by Connecticutian on 12-14-2007 at 03:54 PM • top

I concur the root problem is lack of leadership….No place is it stated how “TRUST” has been broken between TEC and the Lay and Clergy…...
My thoughts are “Communion ” is between myself and my God…..I really dont care what 815 or ABC feels about those who have left TEC or if in “their” communion or not….Remember its “GODS communion”
May all have a blessed Christmas…..........

[184] Posted by AnglicanRon on 12-14-2007 at 03:56 PM • top

tarheel writes: “Executive summary:  Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah. In other words, let’s keep the conversation going”.  Exactly. More dither and delay, more fluffernutter and no steak and potatoes. The sad thing is, the ABC still actually believes that his strategy of dither and delay, “keep everybody at the table, talking to each other”, which has been rejected and left behind by the majority of Anglican Christians, will still somehow work, and he persists in this discredited and now largely ignored pursuit. Your Grace, please; W A K E U P!!! This horse has long ago left the barn, and the split between those who have rejected the “faith once delivered” and those who hold steadfastly to it is irreconcilable. You cannot force Christ and Belial into spiritual fellowship, and it is impossible to embrace both Biblical Christianity and “the new thing” simultaneously, as you will “hate the one, and love the other; or else you will hold to the one, and despise the other”. Personally, sir, at this point, many could care less which side you come down on, just please, clearly “choose ye this day”, so that the Communion faithful may know “whether to go to the right hand, or the left”, just so they may move on with certainty and not be left twisting in the wind. Else, an ever growing number of Anglicans will perceive you’re failure to choose to be a choice, and act accordingly.

[185] Posted by Bob K. on 12-14-2007 at 03:59 PM • top

Can the orthodox Bishops seize the floor and change the format to pass resolutions again this time? I doubt it.
I bet that there is a well designed crowd control plan for Lambeth created by the people who want to keep TEC in the Anglican Communion.
I bet Lambeth will be well orchestrated as another kick the can.
The only hope is a Primates Meeting where they can all view together and discuss the video of the Schori deposition in Virginia and other interesting videos and newspaper clippings, etc.

[186] Posted by Deja Vu on 12-14-2007 at 04:02 PM • top

I disagree completely with Matt’s assertion that Lambeth attendance is the one and only determinant of membership in the Anglican Communion. Lambeth is only one of the four instruments of unity, and its decisions are at least as important as its guest list in interpreting its mind.

As for the ABC, he is, like Lambeth, just one of the four instruments of unity. While his statement is disappointing in its lack of forward movement, I think it reflects his resolve to resist being cast as the executioner of TEC. He is not an Anglican Pope, and he knows that any decisive, Pope-like action he took on his own authority would be condemned by both conservatives and liberals for its presumption. (Let’s face it, Abp. Akinola’s agenda is not just about sex and Scripture; he also wants to shift authority away from Canterbury.)

I still think the key to interpreting +Rowan is his commitment to the covenant process. He hopes that Lambeth will be a key step in moving the proposed covenant forward. And the covenant, ultimately, is the only way to expel TEC from the communion that will be seen as both fair and decisive, rather than a political power play by one faction against another. When TEC refuses to sign on to the covenant, it will have definitively terminated its membership in the communion, no matter how recently its bishops were invited to Lambeth.

For bishops who are commited Communion Conservatives, the obvious next step is to attend Lambeth, help to shape a covenant that will work, and push that covenant forward. Conservative bishops who decline to attend Lambeth will be demonstrating their lack of commitment to the communion.

I do not really expect a lot of the African bishops to attend Lambeth - precisely because I do not believe they are committed to the communion, and therefore they are not on board with the covenant process.

[187] Posted by Roland on 12-14-2007 at 04:07 PM • top

When TEC refuses to sign on to the covenant, it will have definitively terminated its membership in the communion, no matter how recently its bishops were invited to Lambeth.

TEC won’t refuse to sign the covenant becuase:
1.  It will be ambiguous enough to allow TEC to slip its innovations through the cracks.
2.  It will never be enforced anyways.
Trusting the covenant is a fool’s errand.  If TEC can’t be disciplined now, it won’t be disciplined then.
carl

[188] Posted by carl on 12-14-2007 at 04:17 PM • top

Well, again it appears that leaving an apostate body in an irregular manner in order to preserve integrity to the faith once delivered is the worst of all sins.  You know - it’s right there in Romans 1.

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their parishes exchanged their diocese for what is against some ancient traditions. Likewise also the Archbishops, leaving their natural borders, laid hands on men outside their provinces, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due - no invitation to the jamboree.

I know the greater issue is submission to the authority God placed in sacred scripture.  But it seems the leadership of the AC is so corrupted and bent that it holds blatant sin equivalent to irregular ecclesiastical actions for the sake of the Gospel. 

I don’t want to lose the Anglican Communion.  It is the closest thing that I can agree with theologically to what the Church of Christ should look like.  I long for Christian unity and an end to the endless splintering.  But what can we do?  The AC is corrupted and it cannot/will not heal itself.

a

[189] Posted by archangelos on 12-14-2007 at 04:29 PM • top

Roland,

Yes there are 4 instruments. And yes the ABC is only one of them. But it is his right and his right alone to determine who is and who is not in full communion with his office. The primates, the ACC, the bishops at Lambeth cannot force his hand. They cannot make him invite or disinvite a body from full participation in the councils of communion. So, in fact, since the invitations stand, there is nothing that can happen at Lambeth to change or alter TEC’s status.

[190] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 04:31 PM • top

Williams seems to agree that TEC erred in how it went about okaying VGR/SSB’s.  That’s all.  He probably thinks they did the right thing, just went about it wrong.  Meanwhile there is nothing to do but talk more about it and hope it doesn’t happen again til after Lambeth ‘08.  Carl has it right, the covenant process will be guided in a such a way as to garantee TEC signing on, sort of like how the HOB was guided in NO.  And if they immediately violate the new “covenant” we can wring our hands til Lambeth ‘16…

[191] Posted by Nevin on 12-14-2007 at 04:37 PM • top

I will from now on refer to the ABC as the “Boat Anchor”. 

Will someone, ANYONE, please reel-in the Boat Anchor?  We seem to be dragging it across the bottom.

[192] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 12-14-2007 at 04:45 PM • top

Matt+,
What authorities rest in the instrument of the Primates as a gathered body?

[193] Posted by Deja Vu on 12-14-2007 at 04:53 PM • top

Fr Kingsley wrote:

Re- (+++Rowan on his interpretation of any bishop’s refusal to come to his Lambeth Meeting):
“And this is also why I have said that the refusal to meet can be a refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection.”

This is perhaps the MOST OFFENSIVE STATEMENT I have read so far on this crisis.
So, +++Rowan is now placing his Lambeth Invitation at par, or above the Invitation to the Cross - No Lambeth, No Salvation.

In context it does not appear to me that “refusal of the cross” means “no Lambeth, no Salvation”. IMO the ABC is referring here to the command to “take up our cross”. Saying that boycotting Lambeth is refusing the cross means it is balking at the painful and difficult task that God has set before us. And unless that task is carried out, there can be no resurrection for the Anglican Communion. You may or may not agree with RDW’s opinion of the importance of Lambeth attendance, but I really do not think he is saying that non-participants are in danger of hellfire.

[194] Posted by kyounge1956 on 12-14-2007 at 05:14 PM • top

Roland,

In reply to your comment that

…the covenant, ultimately, is the only way to expel TEC from the communion that will be seen as both fair and decisive, rather than a political power play by one faction against another. When TEC refuses to sign on to the covenant, it will have definitively terminated its membership in the communion…

I would say that, although I fully agree with the first statement, I believe that the second statement overstates the case. I strongly believe that there is a finite, non-zero probability that TEC might ratify a covenant, even one that requires them to delay their support for their revisions. It may not be a large probability, but I strongly believe it is not zero.

I say this based on either, or both, of at least the following two possible considerations:

(1) The progressives who currently hold sway in TEC might include enough members in the right positions (predominantly thinking HoB here), that are sufficiently “in touch with reality” to recognize that moving too far, too quickly without the traditional umbrella of the AC, might mean the loss of enough members and offerings that many of their positions (i.e., careers) might be put in jeopardy;

(2) Given the willingness of the HoB to engage in flagrant dissimulation, as witnessed in the response to the Primates from the New Orleans meeting, it is possible that they will take the Bruno approach, which I will summarize for brevity’s sake (at the risk of somewhat overstating the argument) as “tell the suckers what they want to hear!” I actually think it arises more out of arrogance (thinking themselves able to discern what is good and what is evil, thereby being like God, and believing that the ends justify the means), than from any conscious intent to deceive.

I do not have enough knowledge of the members of the HoB to hazard an opinion whether this outcome’s probability is particularly great, but it is certainly not out of the question.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[195] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-14-2007 at 05:16 PM • top

They certainly have the power to make recommendations and even declarations and certainly they could say that TEC ought to be expelled from the communion. But the ABC is the only one who determines, finally, who is in communion with his see.

This is one reason that a Canterbury centered communion is, in some ways, as focused on the actions and decisions of one individual as Rome.

[196] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 05:16 PM • top

Fr. Kennedy,

They certainly have the power to make recommendations and even declarations and certainly they could say that TEC ought to be expelled from the communion. But the ABC is the only one who determines, finally, who is in communion with his see.

This is one reason that a Canterbury centered communion is, in some ways, as focused on the actions and decisions of one individual as Rome.

Which is why two things (the creation of a covenant and the nature of the relationship it defines) is important. The faster we move ahead on that front, the sooner it will be clear whether there is an Anglican Communion path out of this mess or no. If properly structured, it can provide a more objective means of determining when a constituent member of the AC is “out of communion” and it can (no guarantees on this at this time) prescribe the consequences of being “out of communion.” Lacking sufficient clarity on either of those counts, even the Covenant will not be enough.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

P.S., I know not where anyone else stands on the aptness nor propriety of an Anglican Covenant. Thus, I am imputing neither support, indifference nor opposition to the idea of a Covenant to any other person.

[197] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-14-2007 at 05:27 PM • top

So MA, with the full participation of Canada, TEC, etc…in the creation of a covenant and final drafting and passage of the same just how much chance do you think there might be of a satisfactory document arising from the ashes. And say that one does. What happens if, 10 years from now, the ABC simply invites those not “signed in” anyhow?

[198] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 05:44 PM • top

Father Lee and others:  I learned a long time ago to ignore what people say and watch what they do.  I think we have all seen TEC do enough to know exactly what they are all about.  While on the one hand, the Advent letter is stronger than I anticipated, I still think +++Rowan is more committed to blowing smoke as it were than taking any substantive action to deal with the mess.  Looks like he’s already retired and is just hanging around to finish out his time.  How sad.

[199] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 12-14-2007 at 05:57 PM • top

I think folks here are missing what might be the most important part of this letter.  I say “might be” because this whole letter may just be a lot of hot air that passes with the next wind.  But it might just signal RW’s preferred course of action.

I have argued before, that given the situation, RW’s likely preferred path forward is some form of negotiated settlement based on his “two-track” Anglican theory.  Read this letter from the perspective and a lot of things make a good deal more sense.

A negotiated settlement would be best for all involved.  Clearly, the various primates meetings, etc., have not proven to be terribly useful.  I know that many here are demanding another one to judge TEC’s DES response, but I doubt that there is enought conservative votes for the primates to agree on anything concrete.  It would be much better if TEC itself would agree to a reduction in its Anglican status - it would do away with litigation and would be a much better Christian witness.

The real question is - will TEC participate in serious negotiations?  RW has already set some of the tone - that is, TEC cannot expect to remain full member Anglicans while pursuing its “new thing”, and alternatively, (and note carefully what RW says) the unilateral provision of AEO is not appropriate in the Communion - any AEO should be part of an overall agreed upon plan.

Now if I am correct, then the second recommendation made by RW is even more interesting.  The group acting on RW’s second recommendation gets to make some very weighty decisions.  The makeup and timetable of that group could give TEC some very good motivation for negotiations.  (Or it could just as easily provide TEC with good grounds NOT to negotiate).

Only time will tell, but time is short.  RW did specifically say that the second recommendation should be done in time for Lambeth.  I think the time is not far off when we will know conclusively whether the Anglican Communion will continue as a unified body, or whether this letter is just so much more Canterburian hot air.

There is hope here, and developments will need to be closely monitored.  Remember “wise as serpents, innocent as doves.”

[200] Posted by jamesw on 12-14-2007 at 06:08 PM • top

There has been a great deal of progressive chatter and, in fact the Province of Ireland, about refining the covenant to the point where it is an ineffective and weak document within which provinces like ECUSA and the CofC, etc. will have plenty of wiggle room.  Lots of criticism that ++Drexel leads that committee and requests that he resign, presumably making way for at least a mild progressive such as +Bruno (sarcasm).

[201] Posted by Bill C on 12-14-2007 at 06:20 PM • top

Fr. Matt:
+Rowan disagrees with you.
 

This is why I have repeatedly said that an invitation to Lambeth does not constitute a certificate of orthodoxy but simply a challenge to pray seriously together and to seek a resolution that will be as widely owned as may be.

Peace,

[202] Posted by miserable sinner on 12-14-2007 at 06:45 PM • top

It is good that the ABC has stated this clearly:
“* The common acknowledgment that we stand under the authority of Scripture as ‘the rule and ultimate standard of faith’, in the words of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral; as the gift shaped by the Holy Spirit which decisively interprets God to the community of believers and the community of believers to itself and opens our hearts to the living and eternal Word that is Christ.”
Why has TEC been allowed to distract the Anglican Communion from considering Scripture for so long?

[203] Posted by Betty See on 12-14-2007 at 06:48 PM • top

An edited version of my comments at T19.  (For those who haven’t been by, folks are generally more positive about the letter over there.) 

Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good here.  There is little or nothing that the revisionist bishops, clergy or 815 types should like about this letter.  Probably closer to nothing than little.

Between the lines - Dear ECUSA, when it comes to the Anglican Communion its NOT all about you & your agenda.  It is about scripture, the Word, Good News as understood by the Communion and the communion of saints. 

I can’t imagine the “he’s really on our side crowd” isn’t truly sucker punched just like DBAIRD (at T19) said.  I doubt any “clarification” is forthcoming.  He knew he had one shot.  He took it.  It scored.  Whether it scored a knockout, only time will tell.

I remember the complaints by some reasserters about the Dar Communique.  I was baffled.  As I said then over at StandFirm, today the little stone bridge is won.  Celebrate & enjoy the hard fought battle.  Given that instruments of Communion are holding the line, let’s see what happens at Lambeth regarding the points raised in the Dar Communique and on the Anglican Covenant issue. 

And the “distinctive charism of bishops” line & line following - precious, just precious.  While your opionions on ECUSA may vary, to me this letter clearly shows nobody has hijacked the Anglican Communion or the person of the AoC. 

Lord, bless your servant +Rowan and continue to grant him the strength and courage to be a witness to your Word, in truth, with charity for all.  Also, bless all of us who have read his words this day that we may do your will as we discern that will for us and our place in your earthly Church and in your eternal kingdom.

Peace to ALL,

[204] Posted by miserable sinner on 12-14-2007 at 06:52 PM • top

Also from T19:
Seitz also nails it.
“This is as far from an endorsement—in theological principle—of reigning TEC thinking as one can imagine.”
(go read his whole comment for more)

Peace,

[205] Posted by miserable sinner on 12-14-2007 at 06:54 PM • top

Miserable Sinner,

Rowan does not disagree with me. That quote touches on nothing I said. I was speaking about the powers and function of the office of the ABC. In text you quote he is speaking about orthodox v. heresy. You compare apples with oranges.

BTW, Dr Seitz and the ACI have been consistently naive and consistently wrong throughout this process. It is not at all “as far from an endorsement as one can imagine.” That is an almost laughable suggestion. I can imagine 12,000 responses further from an endorsement than this one.

[206] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-14-2007 at 07:00 PM • top

Geek
Thank you for your prayers.  As I read the letter, another reaction I had was:  “he just doesn’t get it”.  For +++Rowan, it seems all of this is some kind of academic exercise or assignment one might be given in seminary.  If I could say anything to him right now, it would probably be something like: 
Dear Sir,
I was confirmed in the Episcopal church in 1977 as a young woman.  I embraced the church because it had latitude and was inclusive and yet, very Christian.  I was driven out of that same church because I would not speak the party line here in NH.  There was a Sunday when the priest said from the pulpit “for those who think the scripture is so important, perhaps they should go where others think it’s important”  - that’s not an exact quote, but a close approximation.  Imagine sitting in the pew and listening to that.  Imagine believing your church was “family” only to have them turn their backs on you rather than stand up for the gospel.  I am a living, breathing, human who has been deeply hurt on a very human level by what has occurred in TEC. So, sir, what say you about this academic exercise?

[207] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 12-14-2007 at 07:05 PM • top

I haven’t visited recently because like any sense of loss it took a while to heal. I’m no longer Episcopalian and sadly don’t care what the Episcopal church does. The church here in Florida has caused many of us to leave and physically forced others out. I truly care for the people who sit in Episcopalian pews but have no feeling for the church. It is Unitarian at best and pantheistic at worst. Either way I no longer care.

[208] Posted by dedaze on 12-14-2007 at 07:12 PM • top

Upon further reflection, I find myself more hopeful about the future of the AC as a whole.  Clearly Canterbury is putting all his eggs in the Lambeth basket.  And after further consideration, that may not be such a bad thing.  But that’s IF and only if, CAPA’s huge number of bishops choose to show up after all, and indeed manage to bend the Conference to their will, despite all the obstacles the ACO will try to put in their way.  But I think that is a very real possibility.

Matt, for once I think you’re completely overlooking a crucial point or two.  First, just because invitations to Lambeth have heretofore been the way that membership in the AC was indicated does NOT mean that it has to stay that way in the future.  A strong statement by the Lambeth conference itself seems more important to me, especially since the ABC has gone out of his way to say that his invitations do NOT settle the issue of the orthodoxy or acceptability of those invited. 

Granted, there is a big potential PR problem that TEC will try to exploit.  But I think it’s manageable.  We just have to re-educate people that invitations to the Primates’ Meeting and the pan-Anglican ACC gatherings are just as important as Lambeth is.  Moreover, if a large number of GS bishops simply refuse to take communion with TEC’s non-Windsor compliant bishops (and those of the ACoC), and if they make a big stink about it, that publicity could easily outweigh the presence of those pro-gay bishops.  It might in fact be far more humiliating (and make a more lasting impression) for the arrogant liberal bishops to be actively and publicly shunned than non-attendance would be.

Second, as has already been pointed out, once they are there, the assembled bishops can themselves invite the CANA & AMiA bishops, together with +Atwood, +Guernsey, +Cavalcanti etc.  After all, who says that the occasional conference of all Anglican bishops has to be summoned by Canterbury anyway?  Or held in Kent?  Or even in England?  It’s not the law of the Medes and the Persians that can’t be changed.  It’s just a matter of custom, hence reformable.

I tend to agree with those who feel that ++Williams is looking for cover.  He wants Lambeth to disinvite or discipline TEC; he simply doesn’t have the heart for it himself.  So, surprisingly, after a second reading of the Advent letter and pondering many of the comments posted already, I find myself more optimistic than before.  TEC has not been given a free pass after all, nor a get out of jail free card.  But only if the GS shows up in force and flexs their muscles and shows their strength.  That is what I now hope for.

But I also reaffirm what I said earlier, and have said repeatedly.  The present Instruments of Union/Communion are completely inadequate.  So is the Covenant Process, since it lacks any real teeth.  But Lambeth 2008 could be the best place to start reforming the whole structure of the AC, if the GS doesn’t indeed sabotage everything now and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by staying away in droves.  It is our liberal foes who ought now to be dreading the approach of Lambeth 2008.  I now think there is a good chance that they’ll just get absolutely kicked in the teeth there.

David Handy+

[209] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 12-14-2007 at 07:24 PM • top

I have been eagerly reading each new post this evening…. Observation: ‘Hope springs eternal’ as voiced in so many posts, but I IMPLORE YOU to remember history and recent actions of the ‘players’ and be realistic. God Bless us all, the worst is yet to come.

[210] Posted by DaveB in VT on 12-14-2007 at 07:56 PM • top

TEC has not been given a free pass after all, nor a get out of jail free card.  But only if the GS shows up in force and flexs their muscles and shows their strength.  That is what I now hope for.”

So do I. There comes a point in most struggles that one side can become its own worst enemy. I pray that’s not where we are. If the GS stays away from Lambeth, as some of those primates apparently did not respond to +++Rowan’s request for a response to TEC’s NOLA maneuvers, we can’t expect help from the rest of the Communion.

I truly hope I’m wrong, but it seems as if some are TRYING to move the center of Anglicanism to the Global South, so actually participating and fighting for us would be contrary to their objectives.

[211] Posted by teatime on 12-14-2007 at 08:10 PM • top

My comment at T19:

Before scanning the letter for “hot buttons” and “what happens next”, let’s try to look at the whole letter, what it tells us about ++Rowan’s understanding of the issues and his analysis of the situation on the ground, and in what direction he believes resolution lies.  Let’s give ‘im a fair trial first, boys, then hang ‘im.

I found this letter much better than I had anticipated.  Notice “dissatisfaction with our present channels of discussion and communication”—he understands the GS’ distrust of the ACO.


Echoes of his excellent “Reflections” of a year ago:

“… our identity as Anglicans is not something without boundaries…  Understanding the Bible is not a private process or something to be undertaken in isolation by one part of the family… if we seek to be recognisably faithful to Scripture and the moral tradition of the wider Church, with respect to blessing and sanctioning in the name of the Church certain personal decisions about what constitutes an acceptable Christian lifestyle…  ... the 1998 Resolution is the only point of reference clearly agreed by the overwhelming majority of the Communion.  This is the point where our common reading of Scripture stands, along with the common reading of the majority within the Christian churches worldwide and through the centuries.”

Recognition that the underlying problem is one of trust and Scriptural authority: 

“The principle that one local church should not intervene in the life of another is simply a way of expressing this trust that the form of ministry is something we share… ... able to recognise biblical faithfulness and authentic ministry in one another ...  ”

Recognition that ECUSA is responsible for this loss of trust, and that the boundary crossings were a direct result of the loss of trust:

“… there must be ways in which others can appropriately distance themselves from decisions and policies which they have not agreed…


The desire to establish this distance has led some to conclude that, since the first condition of recognisability (a common reading and understanding of Scripture) is not met, the whole structure of mission and ministry has failed ...  Hence the willingness of some to provide supplementary ministerial care through the adoption of parishes in distant provinces or the ordination of ministers for distant provinces.”


Implication that our HoB—and ECUSA generally—has been engaging in legalistic pettifoggery:

… There is obviously a significant and serious gap between what TEC understands and what others assume as to what constitutes a liturgical provision in the name of the Church at large…  ... puzzlement has been expressed as to why the House should apparently bind itself to future direction from the Convention. ... a gap between what some in The Episcopal Church understand about the ministry of bishops and what is held elsewhere in the Communion ...

Most importantly, he is now explicitly mentioning this deviance as a characteristic of the Province, and raising the possibility of discipline for ECUSA as a whole.  I have been emphasizing that simply excluding the most obnoxiously apostate Episcopal bishops won’t help us much; what we need is a solution that puts ECUSA out and then lets the Windsor/CC dioceses back in through some DeS-type arrangement (possibly the Southern Cone?):

… so serious as to compromise the entire ministry and mission the province was undertaking…  ... the prevailing view in their province as expressed in its public policies and declarations…  ... the future pattern of liaison between TEC and other parts of the Communion.


Given the division of opinion in the Archbishop’s own CoE, and his own view of the ABC’s proper role in the conciliar structure of the Communion, I find this letter enormously hopeful.

Bear in mind that up to this point, +++Rowan has not formally broached the question of disciplining TEC as a Province, but only given broad hints that certain bishops would be disinvited from Lambeth.  He appears to be moving—admittedly at a glacial pace—towards the necessity of canning TEC as a unit.  Keep praying, brethren…

[212] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 12-14-2007 at 08:19 PM • top

The always wonderful +Venables just sent this email to Fr. Jake (copied with Jake’s commentary):

Just received this email:

Dear Fr. Jake,

Just to let you know that we primates received the letter this morning, 14 December, not before.

Yours,

Greg Venables

The email address matches this one, so I am assuming this is for real.

If this message was received by the Primates this morning, and Dr. Williams chose to ignore the situation in San Joaquin, it looks like we cannot expect any support from Canterbury regarding foreign bishops raiding TEC.

We’re on our own. So be it.

Jake had said the ABC’s letter went out before San Joaquin and therefore no conclusions about that issue could be drawn from the letter.  As I said way upthread, I think the letter dealt with DSJ in a straightforward (and positive) way.

[213] Posted by wildfire on 12-14-2007 at 09:29 PM • top
[214] Posted by wildfire on 12-14-2007 at 09:34 PM • top

Fr. Kennedy asked

…just how much chance do you think there might be of a satisfactory document arising from the ashes(?)

While recognizing that the odds are long, I do believe that there is a chance. Further, as I suggested by my other question, which you did not address, if you don’t believe that the AC is worth saving from falling into the state to which TEC has fallen, why are you posting about about either of them? Shouldn’t we rather be praying for them to see the light? Or, if any of us finds that an impossible task, why waste time, breath or electricity talking (or posting) about them?

Perhaps I am too much the introvert, but because I don’t suffer fools gladly, when I find I am no longer able to pray for them, I try simply to move on. That may not be the most Christian of behaviors with respect to those whom I view as beyond my help, but it certainly ensures that I have some time and energy left for those who will listen. And there is some scriptural guidance to avoid dealing with them as well, so my actions may not be as unworthy as I sometimes think they are.

What say you?

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[215] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-14-2007 at 10:01 PM • top

Greg wrote this morning:

And where is the Global South in all of this? Are they even present at Lambeth 08? If not, will Rowan Williams be able to say with any trace of credibility that the Anglican Communion didn’t disintegrate on his watch?
I expect snarkster will chime in here any moment with the reminder that insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. A “professionally facilitated” meeting couldn’t be more “same” if you got it off the Xerox machine. Possible conclusion: The communion is being led by a madman.


No, the ABC keeps doing the same thing over and over because it is working for him. And he and his team are getting better with practice. No insanity there.
Showing up at a meeting where one will be “professionally facilitated”  into a compromised position is what is not working for the orthodox. So it is the orthodox that need to stop doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. 
And so, as Greg concluded:

I think the best plan is for the GS primates, including +Venables and, if possible, +Gomez, to lay down the gauntlet: We will not be at Lambeth if TEC is too. They have to ask themselves what they have to gain, or lose, by going if TEC is also in attendance. I’d have to say that what they stand to lose is far more important than what they stand to gain, namely the realization on the part of TEC that no matter what they do, no matter the depths to which they sink, the GS will schlep over to Lambeth and take it on the chin.

[216] Posted by Deja Vu on 12-14-2007 at 10:04 PM • top

Matt Kennedy wrote:

TEC is invited to Lambeth.

That’s the ballgame.

Apparently, according to Fr. Kennedy, the Primates are irrelevant as an instrument of the communion, because the ABC can invite TEC to Lambeth, and that’s the ballgame.

Apparently, according to Fr. Kennedy, the Lambeth conference is irrelevant as an instrument of the communion, because the ABC can invite TEC to Lambeth, and that’s the ballgame.

Apparently, according to Fr. Kennedy, the Anglican Consultative Council is irrelevant as an instrument of the communion, because the ABC can invite TEC to Lambeth, and that’s the ballgame.

If all of these statements are true, then why have we been paying so much attention to the diverse actions of the primates and the ACC? Why does it matter whether a bishop attends Lambeth or not, since said bishop is powerless to disinvite TEC, and the ABC can invite TEC to Lambeth, and that’s the ballgame? Is it really the invitation from a single person that constitutes the whole ballgame? I thought, at least, that in the AC we did not have a papal type authority.

Positive: The ABC has abandoned his scheme to hold a tea party at Lambeth in which no substantive discussions or decisions will be considered. He has recognized that he will not be able to control the agenda to that point: if he does, he will have a runaway conference, with whichever orthodox are there ignoring the feelgood agenda.

Negative: I have not seen an indication that the ABC has abandoned his plan to use the Delphi technique at Lambeth to castrate/sterilize the desire by the orthodox to effect substantive communion-deciding actions, such as tossing TEC out whether the ABC likes it or not, or (heaven forbid) redefining the ability of the ABC to invite or disinvite. They could, after all, elect a select committee on invitations, and if the Palace was not available hold the (effective) Lambeth elsewhere!

Hopeful (Perhaps forlorn, perhaps not): The Bishops at Lambeth, led by the GS Primates, will overturn the Delphi manipulation at Lambeth and turn the conference into a substantive discussion with decisive final votes and dictating a followup process that cannot be sabotaged by a dithering Canterbury personage.

[217] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-14-2007 at 10:21 PM • top

On further reflection, I am marginally encouraged by this letter.

1. For a start, the ball is no longer in ECUSA’s court. All that “considerable sacrifice” and commendations for New Orleans language is Anglican code for “They’ve bent as far as they are going to”

2. The framing of the question is correct; it really is about whether the rest of the Communion can see TEC as authentically Christian, given 1.

3. Given the fact that + Cantuar is primus inter pares, he can’t make decisions by himself. He won’t call a Primate’s Meeting because it risks being unmanagable, since both the Global South and the liberal Primates from the West have been restive, (TEC isn’t the only Province packed to the gills full of aging white Liberals and it could easily turn into a train wreck), so he’s picked a Committee to decide pretty much what will be presented to the Lambeth Conference, which will speak the mind of the Communion on whether TEC is in or not.

4. This means the composition of the Committee is of fairly vital importance; I would suspect a moderate Com-con Committee much like +Cantuar himself.

5. 3. and 4. mean that the composition of Lambeth is of even more vital importance still. Even if the Committee tries to keep TEC in, a determined effort from the Global South could turn it (that’s how we got Lambeth 1998 in the first place), and kick TEC out. Even if we have to wait until 2018 to make it final, the Lambeth Conference could expel TEC from the Primates’ Meeting, or the ACC. Would + Cantuar really go openly against the expressed mind of the Church? I think not. 

6. I think either the orthodox Primates have to determine to go to Lambeth together and obey the Archbishop (I would prefer this) or decide together to stay away. The worst scenario is a lukewarm Lambeth with enough credibility to keep the issue on life support.

[218] Posted by Andrewesman on 12-14-2007 at 11:19 PM • top

I’m an ousider and new to the PC, so I think I’ve personally sent an e-mail to Matt Kennedy.  Still, I think the outside world can plainly see what is going on in ya’lls Church.  The fix is simple.  Dar-es-Salaam did this.  Now, the Primates just need to meet to determine and offer their conclusions and wisdom to move the Communion forward.  Someone not wanting this, does not want the the “Church” to speak.  Could the call for a “professionally facilitated meeting” be to discover that what is really needed is a Hermeneutics Process”; that the real problem is the interputation of the scripture.  Maybe, then TEC can convince the Communion, and other faiths, that they have got it right-that the Holy Spirit has been telling the Saints of the Faith Once Delivered a lie?  I truly believe these people (and RW) truly believe this.  Rose

[219] Posted by rose on 12-14-2007 at 11:25 PM • top

I don’t frequent Jake’s that often, but I did peek at his fisk of the letter.  It’s interesting that while conservatives (myself included) don’t see the disciplinary measure against VGR as adequate;  Jake views the nuanced “accepting an invitation is an agreement to work with the rest of the AC on this,” line as heavy-handedness. 

IMO, the line re - “those who don’t come, aren’t taking up their cross”  (I really have no intention of reading through that again, to try to find his exact words) probably is a fire across the bow of Southern Cone, rather than the liberal contingent of the AC. 

I find it genuinely amusing the amount of excruciating suffering that the Anglican Left (i.e., if Jake is representative of your typical liberal Anglican) apparently endure at the harshness of conditions of the invitations that everyone knows won’t be enforced, anyhow.  It confirms one suspician I’ve had about the Left - that they’re really interested in a complete vindication;  the declarative aspect of this reminds me a lot of the Protestant Doctrine of Justification by Faith. 

Perhaps then there’s some hope, lurking in there (for some), somewhere.  It’s a shame though, that they look for such vindication coming from an officer in an office.  Perhaps they’ll recognize that both are too weak after all, to grant such a declaration, and look to the One Whose opinion truly matters. 

Meanwhile, come to the tea-party.  Because if you don’t, then you’re not taking up your crosses.  Yeah, yeah.  Whatever.

[220] Posted by Moot on 12-15-2007 at 03:25 AM • top

After several readings of the ABC’s excruciatingly insufferable and inordinately nuanced “Advent” letter I realize that we have here what in actuality amounts to nothing about much ado (apologies to Shakespeare). Kyrie eleison!  Christe eleison!  Kyrie eleison!

[221] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 12-15-2007 at 04:06 AM • top

Matt
I think there is hope if the Presiding Bishop is among those disinvited to Lambeth because of her actions. Assuming - as some say - that this letter is not just hot air - and that the ABC will put some teeth behind it, then there is a small chance this would happen. He will not bring in the GS without some real actions on His part - this would be a step that would show some seriousness. This would not expell the TEC and would be consistant with his statement the diocese have their relationship with the communioun directly not thru “national” leadership. A wishful thinker might even think he was telegraphing this decision.

[222] Posted by Paul PA on 12-15-2007 at 07:05 AM • top

“...how supremely ironic that Williams thinks “the refusal to meet can be a refusal of the cross - and so of the resurrection,” but has little problem with a province shot through with people that actually do refuse to believe the resurrection.”

Bingo.  Matt S. also has it right; Lambeth attendence is the victory for TEC.  Williams derailed any effort to use Lambeth as a means of discipline for TEC with his preemptory invitations, and before that made it clear that it would not be a conference where the participants themselves could discipline TEC(if indeed a majority could be mustered ) . Go back and read his statements; and see how Lambeth is structured next year!  Now he implies that discussions regarding the covenent could occur at Lambeth, to try to break up a boycott by the conservatives. 

TEC will not be discliplined on his watch or in his meetings.  Don’t drink the cool ade. Its deadly.

[223] Posted by Going Home on 12-15-2007 at 07:54 AM • top

Apparently, Bre-r, you have not read what I have written. Of course Lambeth, the ACC, and the primates are FAR from irrelevant. They have authority to do many things. But as far as determining who is in and who is out of Communion with Canterbury, that is determinined by Canterbury. To say that is not to say that the other IU’s are irrelevant in general. It is to say that they are irrelevent specifically with regard to determining who is and who is not in communion with the see of Canterbury.

The reason we have previously been paying so much attention to theo other IU’s in this regard is because up and until Tanzania, it was assumed that ++William’s intended to act in accordance with the stipulations of Windsor and the decisions of the primates. After Tanzania it has become clear that he is not. Prior to that point the meetings and decisions etc of the other IU’s seemed to have bearing on the decisions of Williams. At Tanzania and with the subgroup report, we see that they did not; that his intention all along was to get TEC to lambeth despite Windsor and despite the global south. He has accomplished his goal.

Now, whatever takes place at Lambeth, TEC is in the communion, undisciplined, for the next ten years and, yes, that is the ballgame.

[224] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 08:25 AM • top

MA,

What are you talking about? Who suggested that the AC was not worth saving? Not I.

To disagree with your perception of how the AC ought to be saved (attending lambeth) is not to suggest that it ought not be saved at all? What a strange suggestion.

[225] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 08:29 AM • top

Matt, I read the letter very differently.  I read it as almost an abdication of the Archbishop’s prerogative of saying who’s in and who’s out.  He lays out his three-point definition for what it means to be in full communion.  (A definition that given his other remarks about the Episcopal Church and it innovations pretty much defines out the Episcopal Church).  And he makes many nods to the Communion itself deciding.  By saying a Lambeth invitation doesn’t imply orthodoxy, he isn’t saying that the unorthodox can be members of the Communion—he’s saying that Lambeth isn’t what defines Communion.  This is not leadership, of course, but it’s not bad news either.  Here’s why.

If the Communion (in this case the Primates representing the Communion) make a determination based on the Archbishop’s definition that the American church is not in Communion, then he will accept that—Lambeth invitations or not.  They will not be considered Anglican.  He wants that to happen only at Lambeth, where he has some control, and hopes he can engineer a result that doesn’t exclude the Americans.  And that’s a reason folks should go to Lambeth, their previous statements notwithstanding.  But it’s also, frankly, an invitation for the orthodox to create facts on the ground that cannot be ignored.  The CCP should ask for recognition as the only American province, and a majority of the primates should give it—before Lambeth.  +++Rowan has opened the door with this letter for such an action.  The primates can meet without him—or at least a large subset can.  And they can also without ever meeting sign a document or issue statements that recognize CCP.  There is huge opportunity here.  I simply do not understand the fatalism that has infected this place.  He has clearly rejected the American innovations.  It’s time to leverage this and take control of events.  We’ve been invited to do so by the Archbishop’s letter—what it says and what it doesn’t.

[226] Posted by VaAnglican on 12-15-2007 at 08:41 AM • top

Re:  Advent Letter -

What I found so encouraging about this letter is that those of us who have had to find shelter under different Primates have been pronounced by the ABC as a continued part of the AC.

This may not mean too much in the grand scale of things - but for those of us who are now trying trying to reconnect with the larger orthodox community (with a revisionist bishop who has been positive about our existence to others)  it means a great deal. 

Whether Rowen means what he says - I don’t know - and I do think actions will speak louder than words.  However, for now, I am thankful that the letter is as positive as it is.

[227] Posted by Eclipse on 12-15-2007 at 09:02 AM • top

VaAnglican, the problem is that even if what you say is true, it remains true that he must act to disinvite. He has not. He could reverse course between now and then, and I pray that he does, but it really does not matter what he says or declares, it matters what he does. If the invitations remain, then TEC is in communion with his see. There is no getting around that fact.

[228] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 09:02 AM • top

Thanks, Matt, for the reply. It seems evident that you view the ABC’s letter as a betrayal of at least some of the processes that have been going on Communion-wide.

Overnight, I had another reflection. Following your logic, the Anglican Communion is constituted as those in communion with Canterbury and defined by those invited to Lambeth. There is perhaps a flaw in that argument, however, for if it were true then the Anglican Communion would have been non-existant (or at least un-defined) prior to the first Lambeth in 1867. Would that be true? Or was the first Lambeth more a recognition that Communion already existed?

Secondly, the Anglican Communion (and any communion) cannot ultimately be defined by the wishes or actions of any one individual, however exalted. The AC is a collection (mostly) of autonomous provinces, each of which decides for itself who they are and are not in communion with. Thus, Communion with Canterbury is a mutual relationship (although according to TEC, only TEC decides whether they are in the AC). And if it is truly a communion, it must also be defined by mutual relationship between the individual members.

We have in TEC (I know this from personal experience) dioceses in which there are parishes which are not in communion with one another. If the rector of one of these parishes shows up at the other, he/she would be thrown off the property. This applies for both the reasserting parish and the reappraising parish. Yet it is still a diocese, with an ambivalent, permissive bishop.

If the same situation comes to exist in the “Anglican Communion” (and we are almost there), one must question whether the so-called “communion” in fact exists. In other words, invitations to Lambeth do not a communion make. The ABC is powerless to make “communion” happen, for communion is a mutual exercise. The ABC can only invite. Other things can then happen.

It has been said many times at several different levels in the hierarchy that the Anglican Communion will be forever changed (and probably already has) by the events in these interesting times. The ABC is one of the inputs to those changes. Lambeth is another. The ABC stands in danger of having his role changed by events beyond his control.

...still in the Briar Patch,

[229] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-15-2007 at 09:03 AM • top

Opps - clarification -

Our former TEC bishop, I meant…

MY bishop, Bishop Guernsey,  ROCKS!!!  smile

[230] Posted by Eclipse on 12-15-2007 at 09:03 AM • top

Also clarification: re: parishes not in communion. By personal knowledge I am aware of one diocese where this exists and one where it formerly existed; in the former case, the reasserting parishes departed for foreign oversight.

...still in the Briar Patch,

[231] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-15-2007 at 09:10 AM • top

...latter case.
sheesh.

[232] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-15-2007 at 09:11 AM • top

Those who council attendance at Lambeth underestimate both the tenacity and effectiveness of the Anglican bureaucracy in its efforts to undermine any “unfortunate” Lambeth proclamations.  To fight at Lambeth is to fight on enemy ground.  It presumes that a piece of paper proclaiming very orthodox sentiments will settle the matter.  But has Lambeth 1.10 settled anything?

The goal must be to collapse the liberal ediface - not issue papers.  That can be accomplished by bringing the fight home to England.  The CoE is the keystone of the liberal strategy.  It must hold for its strategy to work.  For if the CoE goes under, the traditional focus of the Anglican Communion will be lost, and a “market reset” will occur. 

To bring the fight to England, you visibly demonstrate that the Communion is sundered.  That is why Lambeth should not be attended.  It will force the issue and bring resolution.  That is also why the harshest words in RWs letter were reserved for those who might not attend.  He understands the threat very well.

carl

[233] Posted by carl on 12-15-2007 at 09:25 AM • top

I’ve slept on it. And I’ve come to agree with VaAnglican. This letter is positive. Although it is disappointing to wait yet again for action, ++Williams has clearly rejected the innovation of TEC.

++ Williams writes:

it is practically impossible to imagine any further elucidation or elaboration coming from TEC after the successive statements and resolutions from last year’s General Convention onwards… it is extremely unlikely that further meetings will produce any more substantial consensus.

So at least part of the listening has stopped.  TEC as a unit will not be asked to talk anymore (although some individual bishops will have to explain their actions and beliefs).

A scheme has been outlined for the pastoral care of those who do not accept the majority view in TEC, but the detail of any consultation or involvement with other provinces as to how this might best work remains to be filled out

So ++Williams and others need to ‘flesh out’ the APO plan.

now we need to determine a way forward. 

There is a need for action.  That is the basis of this letter. 

I have underlined in my letter of invitation that acceptance of the invitation must be taken as implying willingness to work with those aspects of the Conference’s agenda that relate to implementing the recommendations of Windsor, including the development of a Covenant.

So bishops who cannot abide by implementing Windsor and developing a covenant should not attend.  ++Williams will personally talk to each bishop whom he thinks might have a problem with Windsor and the Covenant.

I wish to pursue some professionally facilitated conversations between the leadership of The Episcopal Church and those with whom they are most in dispute….They may also clarify ideas about the future pattern of liaison between TEC and other parts of the Communion.

I find the word “liaison” very interesting here.  If TEC needs a liaison they are not in full communion.   A liaison facilitates communication between two parties, but the two parties do not have full communion.

I also intend to convene a small group of primates and others, whose task will be… to work on the unanswered questions arising from the inconclusive evaluation of the primates to New Orleans and to take certain issues forward to Lambeth. This will feed in to the discussions at Lambeth about Anglican identity and the Covenant process; I suggest that it will also have to consider whether in the present circumstances it is possible for provinces or individual bishops at odds with the expressed mind of the Communion to participate fully in representative Communion agencies, including ecumenical bodies.

So Rowan intends to go to Lambeth with a recommendation about how to proceed with TEC.  This recommendation will include the possibility that TEC as a province might not participate fully in Communion agencies and ecumenical bodies.  The recommendation might also exclude individual bishops (rather than a full province) from full participation.

I can live with this.  I will not yet return my OA (Optimists Anonymous) card.

[234] Posted by selah on 12-15-2007 at 09:27 AM • top

I think it’s time to go back and listen to Katharine Jefferts Schori’s “talk” to her staff right after she got back from Dar es Salaam.  One of the things that we are struggling with regarding Rowan’s letter is it’s context.  In fact, it’s much like the 1979 Prayer Book - it can pretty much be whatever you want it to be, depending on your own personal context. 

But it might be a good time to listen again to what Bishop Schori said when spoke to her staff.  As I recall, she took a view not unsimilar to Rowan’s - the long view.  Her theology of course is different, but her process is not.  In her talk, as I recall, she is trying to calm her staff after Dar es Salaam and reassure them that if they take the long view, they will be victorious.

But I think it’s important to watch Schori very carefully.  The problem with Rowan’ letter is either he is in fact agreeing with Schori’s process or Schori’s confident that her process will be victorious over a weakened Canterbury. 

Again, if the Anglican orthodox coalition splits then her process wins because she - and Rowan - will be taking the long view.  Dysfunctional processes can go on for generations - that’s one of the major reasons we’re in this mess to begin with.  There is no accountability except when power is threatened.  But I am thinking it may be more important right now to listen to Schori - ironically - than Rowan Williams.  We must read his words in light of what she says - not our context, but hers.  Otherwise, we are naive. We will start fighting amongst ourselves and I would ask you, who benefits the most if we dissolve into infighting - and who might be encouraging such infighting?  We must consider refraining from reading Rowan’s words from our perspective, and read them from hers. 

I will either put it up at BabyBlue or post the link.  Stay tuned.

bb

[235] Posted by BabyBlue on 12-15-2007 at 09:28 AM • top

I will not yet return my OA (Optimists Anonymous) card.

Selah, I recommend that you keep going to the OA meetings.

[236] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-15-2007 at 09:32 AM • top

Selah,

It does not matter whether he agrees that some members of TEC ought not to be a part of the Communion or even that he agrees with the establishment of structures for that purpose. What matters is whether he is willing to act on what he says. And he is not. They are coming to Lambeth. So, again, unless he reverses course, the Episcopal Church remains in Communion wiht the see of Canterbury for the next ten years.

[237] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 09:37 AM • top

FWIW, I can’t imagine a scenario where any Lambeth invitations will be withdrawn, Given +Rowan’s personality, actions (or lack of), the ‘mystery’ of the timing of the invites (posit that this was because +Rowan didn’t want any future complications or actions getting in the way), withdrawing any is just not in his thoughts. Neither is issuing any more.

[238] Posted by DaveB in VT on 12-15-2007 at 09:40 AM • top

I think we are getting confused between facts on the ground and words in the air. The fact is that TEC, with the exception of VGR, is going to lambeth. The fact on the ground is that the see of Canterbury recognises TEC as existing in a state of full communion.

The words may conflict with those facts, but they do not change them.

[239] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 09:40 AM • top

Okay, Matt, I give up. Now, supposing we concur with your assessment (“game over”, essentially), what do we do now? Have a tailgate party in the parking lot? Call up the talk show host (SF) and work through all our frustations? Take out a full page ad in WSJ? Rent our own stadium and start hiring managers?

If “That’s the ball game”, what now?????

...still in the Briar Patch,

[240] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-15-2007 at 10:03 AM • top

bb is right.  See #97 Larry Morse on T19.  RW and kJS are interchangable.  They are following some “other spirit”!  Quit playing with them.  This is really really bad.  Some of the things I have read and seen on link-after-link should make your stomachs ache.  Just exchange 815 for Canterberry and you will have what has been occuring since 1998.  bb and Matt Kennedy got me.  Others may not be so fortunate.  Please stop playing “their game”, it is with the wrong spirit-not on the same playing field and could be waisting Christ’s time.  Take over now, or leave them to their lusts!  NOW!  Rose   PS bb, it must be because of God’s other shoe that I have hope.  (Thank you so very much.)

[241] Posted by rose on 12-15-2007 at 10:03 AM • top

Bre-r,

I think the Communion needs a basis and foundation other than Canterbury. At this point, I think the only way to make that happen is by establishing a new sort of Anglicanism based on both a confession and a conciliar adjudicating authority of primates. I’ve argued for this sort of thing many times.

I do not think we need to be trotting off to Lambeth to play his game and legitimize TEC’s inclusion.

[242] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 10:17 AM • top

Okay, I have Katharine Jefferts Schori’s talk to her staff after she returned from the Primates meeting in Dar es Salaam up at the Cafe here.

It makes for very very interesting listening, especially in light of Rowan’s letter.

bb
BabyBlueOnline

[243] Posted by BabyBlue on 12-15-2007 at 10:44 AM • top

Many have said TEC will or will not sign/agree to the Covenant.  What if TEC is not asked?  Since ABC regonizes the Bishop as the authority (letter to Biship Howe) and that TEC is not a “monochrome body” (Advent Letter).  I think the Covenent is to be signed by individual Bishops, not the TEC as a whole.  Those who sign will be recognized, those who don’t won’t.

[244] Posted by JustOneVoice on 12-15-2007 at 10:46 AM • top

Matt,  YES, YES!  What would Paul have done if he had received RW letter; even with L1998?  I believe one admonishment would have ended it for him.  Would Jesus be going to Lambreth to discuss or reason with Lucifer?  Yes, yes, that is what you are dealing with.  Rose

[245] Posted by rose on 12-15-2007 at 10:57 AM • top

Matt, I still think you’ve got it wrong.  The letter itself seems to say that the invitations to Lambeth do not define who it is in the Communion—i.e., who is an Anglican.  It is the Communion which decides, based on a definition that quite obviously excludes most of ECUSA.  The revisionists seems to “get” this, which is why they are so full of venom on their blogs right now.  They understand that their Lambeth invitations aren’t enough in the long haul, and probably not in the not-so-long haul.  There is a window of opportunity now, which the orthodox must take advantage of.  Now is not the time for proclaiming the sky has fallen.  Now is the time to make plain what the Communion thinks of the American church.  With an alternative in place in less than a week, there’s plenty of time to amass an unstoppable force that can then go to Lambeth and finish the job.  It will require boldness beyond even that at Dar es Salaam, but it can be done.  And if the handwriting is on the wall, don’t assume the Americans will even attend. 

The question I have is: will a majority of the primates recognize and alternative ecclesiastical structure in North America?  This may be the critical question.

[246] Posted by VaAnglican on 12-15-2007 at 10:59 AM • top

I’m with VA Anglican and Selah on the proper reading of this AoC’s Advent letter.  I also advise a reading of ALL of Seitz’s comments at T19.

As for attendees at Lambeth, the main attendee I care about is the Holy Spirit.  As for Fr. Matt’s heartfelt view that attendance alone “is the ball game”, I couldn’t disagree more.  It is clearly a factor but not, the “figure of merit in the equation”. 

The king calling for Parliament to assemble so that members can be called to the well for admonishment is not an endorsement of their being members. It is an opportunity for a public pronouncement that they have failed in fulfilling “the charism of bishops” in leading their flocks. 

Let us all pray that the 150 years of Anglican tradition and charism of bishops that is Lambeth can be a place under the power of Christ, the leading of the Holy Spirit and not an opportunity for ECUSA & ACO zeitgeist-following leaders to do anything but be brought into conformance with the will of the communion. 

Will that happen?  Only God knows, but overstating the issue, being invited to your own hanging is not an thing you should want.

Peace and a holy Advent to ALL wherever are on the issues before Christ’s Anglican Communion,

[247] Posted by miserable sinner on 12-15-2007 at 11:06 AM • top

For what it’s worth, I emphatically back Br_er Rabbit and Selah in their more positive take on the prospects for Lambeth 2008 to be a very good thing, but that’s IF and only if the GS attends in force and bends the Conference to their will, dragging the obstructionist AGO all the way, kicking and screaming behind them.

Matt, the rules of the ballgame are changing.  That’s what you seem to be missing.  The mere invitation to attend Lambeth does NOT constitute a final decision on who is or is not in “full communion” with Canterbury.  The ABC has plainly said, over and over, that the buck does not stop with him.  He has refused to take the advice of the drafters of the Windsor Report and exercise his right to refuse invitations to more than just a very few bishops.  So be it.  He plainly wants the whole Lambeth gathering to make such a momentous (and unpleasant) decision.  OK, I can live with that.

Let’s keep watching the reaction from the Left.  I think even EmilyH will soon be changing her tune and sensing that Lambeth 2008 could end up as a huge disaster for the liberal minority.  As I said before, if the GS shows up in strength, it could turn into an absolute rout of the liberal heretics.  They could even end up being just crushed, and kicked in the teeth.  That’s what I’m hoping for. 

David Handy+
Praying that Lambeth 2008 becomes a real turning point where the New Reformation gains a lot of momentum

[248] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 12-15-2007 at 11:11 AM • top

Matt
I think you are spot on.  Someone said on one of the strands that communion involves the agreement of both parties.  Until NOLA, I was still anxious to be part of the present Anglican Communion.  However, since that time, I have seriously questioned why I would want such.  Even if one is not familiar with applicable scripture regarding this matter, most have heard “if you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas”.

[249] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 12-15-2007 at 11:16 AM • top

One thing that the revisionists have had right all along that we do not seem able to grasp is that there is no mechanism for expelling a member from the communion. There is no declaration or pronouncement, even from all 4 IU’s, that would establish an expulsion as a fact on the ground. Summoning all the provinces to Lambeth to exact discipline is a non-sequitor, therefore, because the only means by which communion is established is participation in the meeting itself.

So, again, even if we come away with a unanimous anathema, we will have to wait 10 years to find out whether, in fact, TEC is truly no longer part of the AC and it will depend on the decision of Canterbury who may or may not decide to uphold the decisions of the council.

He could even say “TEC is no longer in Communion with my see” but so long as they are showing up as full participants to the councils of Communion, it makes no difference.

There is a sense in which, during the Interim, if TEC was disinvited by the ABC to primates and ACC meetings, they might be considered in a “suspended” state but until 2018, there could be nothing definitive.

as for Dr. Seitz, the ACI has been consistently and dramatically wrong since before Tanzania and they continue to be

[250] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 11:17 AM • top

Fr. David Handy get it.

Peace to ALL,

[251] Posted by miserable sinner on 12-15-2007 at 11:19 AM • top

Expecting Lambeth ‘08 to produce anything more than an agreement to hold more meetings is the true triumph of hope over experience. We have been down this road, and nothing changes.

Matt makes a very good point. TEC is not going to change, and there is no process other than Lambeth invitations to enforce change.

TEC has said and shown by their actions again and again that they are not changing their new philosophy, and we need to believe them.

The only item up for discussion is how does the rest of the AC go forward, or can the AC as traditionally constituted go forward in any meaningful way?

[252] Posted by BillS on 12-15-2007 at 11:25 AM • top

BabyBlue,

Thanks for posting that. I think you may be on to something.

I have a blog thingy

[253] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 12-15-2007 at 11:29 AM • top

Father Kennedy, With all due respect, I think that you are dead-wrong on the issue of boycotting Lambeth. TEC is in the hands of sub-Chrisitian gnostics today because too many of the orthodox faithful “walked away” from it—in effect, boycotted it. I understand the allure of establishing a parallel communion centerted in the Global South, but the fact remains that their are MILLIONS of unsaved souls in North America and in Europe today. To boycott Lambeth NOW means that the revisionists will have the “official” Anglican Communion handed to them on a platter—and that TEC and the New Westminster crowd will have a completely free hand to preach their satanic pseudo-gospel to the gullible masses. It does not matter what the technical “rules” are RIGHT NOW—the “rules” can be changed—dramatically, clearly—at the upcoming Lambeth Conference. But this will ONLY happen if the orthodox show up IN FORCE…

I am advocating a radical SEIZURE of the Communion, in the Name of Jesus. A “revolution,” if you will.

WHAT will the ABC or TEC actually be able to do if the orthodox simply disregard the agenda and, instead, acting a an authentic council of authentically Christian bishops, DECLARE THAT TEC, NEW WESTMINSTER, etc. ARE NOW APOSTATE, sub-Christian, false prophets, etc., etc., etc… in other words, EXCOMMUNICATE them…

This can be done boldly and forcefully on the FIRST DAY that the bishops meet, with sufficient planning in advance. On the following days, the Covenant can be drawn up, new Communion-wide institutions can be put in place, and committees can be organized to investigate and document the ruthless persecution of orthodox Anglicans by TEC and their ilk…

All of this need only take a few days…

It’s probably a bad analogy, but the fact of the matter is that the Lenin and his party used an INVITATION to the Russian Duma as an opportunity to seize control of Russia. The FIRST thing that Lenin did—on the first day that the Duma met—was to mount the speakers podium and then publicly TEAR UP the agenda that had been set for that meeting of the Duma. He then proceeded to set a NEW AGENDA… As everybody knows, it took that Duma only TEN DAYS to draw up a new constitution, totally reconfigure the state, and launch the Soviet Union… If Lenin supported by, at most, several thousand marginalized followers, could successfully seize control of Russia in TEN DAYS, then why does it seem to you so far-fetched that the orthodox faithful could seize control of the Anglican Communion over the course of the next Lambeth Conference.

To WALK AWAY from Lambeth is to concede DEFEAT. Personally, I say GO THERE—and in the Name of our Risen Lord do Battle with the minions of Hell!

“They’ve got the guns, but we’ve got the numbers…”

Actually, our numbers are overwhelming. Lenin would have given his eye-teeth for the sort of ground-troops that we have now.

More to the point, we would be going into battle in the Name of the Lord of Hosts; the God of Israel…

Father Kennedy, I suggest that instead of dwelling on inevitable defeat, as you seem to be doing, you, instead, consider that the Bible has PROMISED us that we shall be “in all things VICTORIOUS” so long as we continue to cling to our precious Savior and trust in Him…

Are you AFRAID to go to Lambeth, Father Kennedy? I am not…Personally,  I am ready to go to Lambeth—to go toe-to-toe with Satan himself, if need be—and to RECLAIM my Church in the all-powerful Name of Jesus…

Offhand, I can think of several times in Church history when the orthodox faithful have SUDDENLY and BOLDLY and DRAMATICALLY seized the initiative and REWRITTEN THE RULES OF THE GAME… The earliest disciples and Apostles boldly and fearlessly transformed tribunals into opportunities to EVANGELIZE—and God rewarded their courage and faith with MANY MANY MANY dramatic conversions…

[254] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 11:38 AM • top

With greatest sympathy to all,

Please start plotting how to support the orthodox bishops at Lambeth.  Also start plotting how to support the Orthodox Primates at Lambeth.  Draft resolutions, plot, connive, scheme, plan cabals, give money to those not fully included to find ways for their voice to be heard. 

It is the next little stone bridge.  So, bind up your wounds and prepare to fight.  If you believe the fight is already lost, or this is not a stone bridge worth fighting for, then peace to you and yours,

[255] Posted by miserable sinner on 12-15-2007 at 11:38 AM • top

...the only way to make that happen is by establishing a new sort of Anglicanism based on both a confession and a conciliar adjudicating authority of primates.

Amen. I’m tired of this chess match, tired of all the game playing, of all the ugliness. I have for years questioned the value of belonging to a ‘communion’ in which roughly half the members agree with TEc’s ‘theology’ - what is it we have to be in communion with them about?? Let it go. I don’t care what they do anymore, Jesus is Lord, that’s all that matters.

[256] Posted by sanjuan on 12-15-2007 at 11:38 AM • top

I continue to think the wording of the letter on the whole is good.  The problem is that we are way past words.  Rowan Williams is someone who is still trying to write new checks to cover bad checks.  No more.  All that matters now are actions, not promises.

[257] Posted by wildfire on 12-15-2007 at 11:48 AM • top

miserable sinner, YES! YES! YES! I have more wounds than I can count, from countless years spent in the front lines battling TEC. ANd, yes, at times I have felt totally defeated and terrified of the enemy that opposes me. But God has renewed my strength. I am binding up my wounds. I am putting on the armor of God once again. And I am going to do EVERYTHING in my power to get EVERY ORTHODOX BISHOP—especially Peter Akinola and the Nigerian bishops—to Lambeth.

Who will join me?

Which of you will FLEE before this decisive battle?

I do NOT look forward to Lambeth—I know that it will be a horrendous clash of forces, and that Satan will unleash his most ferocious warriors.

But, personally, I plan to stand with Aslan.

Who will join me?

[258] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 11:52 AM • top

bluenarrative, even if the fanciful scenario you paint were to come to pass. IT WOULD MEAN NOTHING. Because at the end of the Conference all parties would go home. And the ABC would still be the ABC and he would still invite who he wants to invite wheresoever he chooses.

What on earth ever gave you the idea that I am a defeatist? Of course Christ is victor.

Do you think that means that Christians win every battle and never face death and defeat and the cross? That is not at all consistent with the New Testament. I am not at all arguing that the root or the vine is dead. That cannot happen. I am arguing that the Canterbury based Communion, however, is a dead branch. And as such, it must be cut off.

[259] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 11:58 AM • top

In the history of warfare, those who choose the battleground tend to win (overwhelmingly). Lambeth is a battleground chosen by the orthodox’s enemy. Maybe fighting another day by letting TEC stew in their own juices and deplete is worth it.  Mayb

[260] Posted by DaveB in VT on 12-15-2007 at 12:01 PM • top

In the history of warfare, those who choose the battleground tend to win (overwhelmingly). Lambeth is a battleground chosen by the orthodox’s enemy. Maybe fighting another day by letting TEC stew in their own juices and deplete is worth it.  Mayb

[261] Posted by DaveB in VT on 12-15-2007 at 12:01 PM • top

key hit too early… Maybe IF ALL the orthodox warriors can assemble with ONE battle plan it can be turned around. What are the chances?

[262] Posted by DaveB in VT on 12-15-2007 at 12:02 PM • top

Father Kennedy, I apologize for suggesting that you are a defeatist. I suppose I intended to address what I see as defeatist attitudes among the ranks of the orthodox.

Everything that you say is correct, as far as it goes—except when you categorically assert that the Anglican branch is dead. Have you been to Africa lately? Have you ever talked, face-to-face, with Archbishop Akinola or Archbishop Kolini? These men, and the Chuches that they lead, are NOT dead—they are wonderfully ALIVE… TEC is dead. And THAT branch SHOULD be cut off. Ruthlessly. Soon… Lambeth Palace is in danger of infection from the rot that killed 815, but it is NOT dead yet.

In my spare time, I am a gardener. I have nursed many plants back to health when disease struck.

DavidB, I can think of dozens and dozens of battles that were decisively WON by outnumbered and outgunned armies on battlefields that were chosen by the enemy. Caesar’s defeat of Pompey comes to mind, right away. Montgomery’s victory at Al Alamein is another good example. Cornwallis CHOSE Yorktown. The French CHOSE Bien Dien Phu. Lee CHOSE Gettysburg (and while Lee chose this site and while he was deploying his forces around Gettysburg, the Federal government began evacuating Washington, anticipating the need to move the governent to New York!)

Who will go with me to Lambeth? Who will stand with Aslan?

“They’ve got the guns, but we’ve got the numbers…”

[263] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 12:25 PM • top

Agree with Matt and Carl. Attending Lambeth would only give credence to this ongoing charade played by Canterbury. TEC will never be disciplined, its status as a member province in good standing will be assured for the next ten years, and the orthodox, through the machinations of TEC and their close ally, the ABC, will be given another black eye, and sold down the river - YET AGAIN. The strongest statement that the orthodox can make at this point, re: Lambeth 2008 is to stay away in droves. To go again would only lend credence to this endless shell game.

[264] Posted by Bob K. on 12-15-2007 at 12:29 PM • top

Yes, Kolini, Orambi, Akinola, Gomez, Venables, and a host of other primates are wonderful, and the perfect partners with which to start a new communion. With whom we have faith in common.

[265] Posted by sanjuan on 12-15-2007 at 12:41 PM • top

bluenarrative,

I’m not at all suggesting that Abuja or Nairobi or any of the other orthodox sees are dead. Far from it. Which is precisely why they must be the ones who do the cutting.

[266] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 12:42 PM • top

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, NOT run away.

The army of Israel, led by Saul, was totally outnumbered by the Philistine army. No sane or reasonable person had ANY REASON to think—for even a brief moment—that the army of Israel would not be annihilated and that the Philistines would go UNPUNISHED… ONE YOUNG MAN—David—stood up, and the ONLY armor that he wore was the armor of God… He correctly rebuked Goliath for mocking the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And he correctly predicted that he would be victorious, so that ALL THE WORLD WOULD SEE THAT GOD WAS WITH ISRAEL…

Who will hide in their tents, with Saul and the other faithless Israelites?

Who will march into battle with me, in the Name of the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel?

Who will stand with Aslan?

Father Kennedy, with all due respect, NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING (in the entire history of the world) has ever been quite as “fanciful” as David’s prediction of victory over Goliath. Except, of course, for Jesus’ prediction that he would rise from the dead. I stand with Jesus. I stand with Aslan. I stand with the God of Israel.

[267] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 12:45 PM • top

I do not know about the rest of the folks on this blog, but, personally, I plan on stripping off my clothes and dancing naked as we carry the new Covenant Document into CANTERBURY CATHEDRAL.

[268] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 12:48 PM • top

That will give “turn the other cheek” new meaning! smile

[269] Posted by BillS on 12-15-2007 at 12:53 PM • top

bluenarrative,

Who said anything about running away. We’re talking about burying the dead.

[270] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 12:56 PM • top

All throughout Nazi-occupied Europe during the Second World War, countless TRAINS carried millions of innocent people to Nazi Death Camps. Maybe the simple common people of Europe could not dislodge Hitler from the Chancellory in Berlin. But they had a MORAL OBLIGATION to STOP THOSE TRAINS—to tear up the tracks, to place obstructions on the tracks, or even—if all else failed—to STAND ON THE TRACKS and FACE the trains… Maybe they did not have guns; maybe they did not have dynamite to blow the tracks up; maybe they lacked organization and support from the Allies. But, if nothing else, the people of Europe should have done EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to STOP THOSE TRAINS…

TEC is coordinating and running a similar system of trains—delivering innocent people to spiritual death camps. We have a moral obligation to do everything that we can to STOP THOSE TRAINS… it just so happens that we have been INVITED to tour the HUB of this railroad, to get into the roundhouse from which all of these trains are directed towards various death camps.

Why, in the Name of God, would you not ACCEPT the invitation—if for no other reason than to effectively plan how to disrupt thoise trains?

I am going to Lambeth. I will stand in the path of an oncoming train, if need be. I will stand with Aslan. I will stand with my precious Risen Lord… Not because I want to be an “Anglican.” Not because I want the historicity or the rich heritage of the Anglican faith. Not because I want all the money and real estate currently in the hands of TEC… I will stand on on the train tracks in the path of an oncoming train BECAUSE THAT TRAIN IS CARRYING INNOCENT PEOPLE—the young; infants; the old; the halt and lame; the feeble-minded; the uneducated; the duped; the foolish—TOWARDS A SPIRITUAL DEATH CAMP…

[271] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 01:02 PM • top

BillS, I am going to have to consult my Greek NT (I am not at home now) later and see if that is not, perhaps, a plausible alternate translation! smile smile smile Why not turn THAT PARTICULAR CHEEK to our enemies?  smile  smile  : )

[272] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 01:06 PM • top

Bluenarrative. Lambeth is a meeting of bishops. It lasts for a number of weeks. Then it is over. The Archbishop of Canterbury will still be the Archbishop of Canterbury. There is nothing the primates or anyone else can do about that. They could vote unanimously to remove Rowan from his seat and it would not matter. His office is not an elected one nor is he subject to the opinions, however, widespread of other provinces. A far more effective way to stop the trains might be to redirect them south.

[273] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 01:08 PM • top

bluenarrative

You will return from Lambeth like Neville Chamberlain - waving a piece of paper over your head, and declaring “Orthodoxy in our time!”  Then what?  How do you enforce that paper against a bureaucracy which is implacably opposed to it, and positioned to undermine it?  TEC and its allies will have ten years to reverse the outcome.  Do you honestly think that they will simply pack up shop and go away? 

carl

[274] Posted by carl on 12-15-2007 at 01:13 PM • top

BlueNarrative,

I, for one, am with you. I will write +Martyn Minns (the only person of any influence whom I know) and ask him to ask ++Akinola to stand ready for battle.

There are still reasons to fight this.

[275] Posted by selah on 12-15-2007 at 01:25 PM • top

TECHNICALLY, you are correct—it would mean NOTHING… But morally, spiritually, historically it would mean a GREAT DEAL. I do not think that Rowan Williams should be sacked by a revolutionary assembly of bishops—actually, I think that, for all of his waffling and indecisiveness, he is probably a bit more on our side than he is on the side of the revisionists. But I do think Lambeth would be a magnificent platform from which the assembled Anglican bishops from all over the world can clarify—in no uncertain terms—WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A MEMBER OF THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH… Seizing the agenda of the meeting, passing resolutions based on an orthodox agenda, holding press conferences, expelling TEC from Lambeth, loudly and clearly rebuking the heresies of TEC, publicly exposing the evil machinations of TEC, publicly enumerating the sins of the leadership of 815, drafting a bold Covenant, holding wild African worship services and prayer meetings—all of these things will GO FAR towards rendering TEC as a FALSE CHURCH…

Obviously, 815 is not going to go away entirely. Nor, do I expect the lawsuits to end, or TEC to surrender any doctrinal ground. But people currently in the pews of TEC churches will be given a dramatic glimpse of what their church is REALLY all about. And others will hesitate before affiliating with TEC. Obviously, the C of E will quickly revert to it’s usual manner of doing business. But the WHOLE WORLD WILL BE GIVEN A BRIEF OPPORTUNITY TO COMPARE AND CONTRAST AN AUTHENTIC CHRISTIAN CHURCH WITH A SUB-CHRISTIAN GNOSTIC CULT… The assembled orthodox bishops will boldly cite THE WORD OF GOD (sharper than a two-edged sword)... and the minions of Hell from 815 can complain using their absurd gnostic double-speak… the whole world can observe a TRUE CHURCH rebuking a false church… Why would you pass up an opportunity to do such a thing?

Remember—MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people, who have NO IDEA WHAT THE GOSPEL IS, will be watching Lambeth… Why NOT turn the whole silly affair into a wonderfully unlikely PULPIT from which we can boldly proclaim the GOOD NEWS?

[276] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 01:29 PM • top

I say GO THERE—and in the Name of our Risen Lord do Battle with the minions of Hell!

bluenarrative, I really like your attitude. Yes! we should go, but not as faithful players of the game that has been [played and which I am sure is being laid out at Lambeth. We should go to give the Communion one final chance, as a body, to stand with the faith or to dick(er) arpund until there is nothing left.

Matt, I disagree with you that meeting with TEC means that we will be in Communion with them. The meeting does not communion make. It merely presumes communion. Athanaisus met with Arius at Nicea. A decision made at that meeting became a superior testimny to communion than the meeting.

What establishes communion is Eucharist. I say that Akinola, Orombi, Iker, Venables, Duncan, Lawrence and all others who stand with the true faith against apostacy should go and refuse to commune with Schori, and any others that stand with her, and FORCE Rowan to let Lambeth take a stand and make a determination. If that will not be possible then the attempt to discipline heresy will have been taken to the highest level and rejected and the Communion will be dead and need to be reconstituted.

I wrote in one of my many intemperate rants over at T19, against some theolgians’ suggestion that we should suck up and accept the position of exiles in the church, that Christians should not take the second best option of making lemonaid out of the lemons these apostates hand us. We should shive them down their throats and tell them we are the church MILITANT and we drink WINE from the Lord’s vinyard.

We are meant to be conquerors. The gates of Hades wil not stand against the church, why should the obfuscatory processes of ACC pinheads at Lambeth deter us? It’s just one last meeting, the first Lambeth since the presenting problem. And think of the witness to the world. We went and publicly and corporately spoke as a body to drive heresy out of the church. OR, we went and publicly and most rudely overturned the tables and declared the Communion a fraud.

NOT going to a meeting is much less spectacular and less productive than going. The annals of church history has not been dominated by people NOT going to councels. It is dominated by the faithful going and making a stand.

Arms yourselves! It’s Advent. Get your Saint Nick on and get ready to slap Arius in the face. It’s like these prutrid politiccal debates. I long for a Candidate to stand up and tell the moderates to shut up and let them actually discuss something subsatntively. TAKE the stage rather than just walking onto to it and standing there. We payed for the microphone! I mean, JESUS paid for our right to meet as Christians. Let’s not let anyone or anything get in the way of doing it and doing it right.

[277] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-15-2007 at 01:33 PM • top

NO, Carl… my purpose in going to Lambeth will NOT be to necessarily affix orthodoxy for all time… the battle will go on until the Lord comes again… I simply see this as an opportunity to rebuke the gnostics, to clarify what constitutes orthodoxy, to document the rot that has emanated from 815, and to proclaim the Gospel to a watching world… Incidentally, I also think that if we seize the agenda at Lambeth—rudely, boldly, aggressively, noisily—that people LIKE Rowan Williams will, at least for a short period going into the future, hesitate before they take the orthodox for granted… I do NOT seek “peace,” Carl… I seek opportunities to bear witness to the omnipotent Grace of my Risen Lord and Savior; to bear witness to the transforming power of the Gospel… and I seek to sharply delineate what is authentic Christianity and what is NOT…

[278] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 01:36 PM • top

Ooops, I , meant that I long for a candidate to tell the debate Moderator to shut up.

[279] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-15-2007 at 01:37 PM • top

OK let’so - but remember the world is on TEC’s side, TEC will whine incessantly about justuce, rights, fairness, polity, etc. and will spin it in a way the world will be on their sides (as now) - a victory must be overwhelming.

[280] Posted by DaveB in VT on 12-15-2007 at 01:39 PM • top

Thank you, Christopher! I detect more than a little of your father’s fire in your faith! Thank you…

Yes! let’s go to Lambeth together and stand with Aslan! Shove the lemons down their throats and loudly proclaim that we drink (the BEST) wine from the Lord’s vineyards!

[281] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 01:40 PM • top

Chris Hathaway,

You are arguing against a point I did not make. I am not, on this thread, suggesting that going to Lambeth with TEC puts is in communion with them. I am not suggesting anything of the sort.

I am simply stating the bare fact that membership in the Anglican Communion is determined by your invitation by the see of Canterbury to participate in the councils of the Communion, cheifly Lambeth. For that reason, it makes no difference what actually happens at Lambeth because once you are invited you are considered a full constituent member in full communion with Canterbury.

Why on earth do you guys think there has been this three year concerted effort to prevent the invitations from going to non-Windsor bishops? This has always been the ballgame and the ballgame is lost.

The problem is that the makeup of the Communion hinges on the decisions of one man. Since he has made his decision with regard to non-Windsor bishops, they are invited, there is nothing we can do at Lambeth to change that fact.

[282] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 02:09 PM • top

Here is my letter to +Minns. Let me know if you think there should be any changes.

As you know, many of the orthodox are disheartened by Archbishop William’s Advent letter. Because The Episcopal Church is being invited to Lambeth, many orthodox believe that it is time to leave a Canterbury-centered form of Anglicanism altogether.

I have not had such a pessimistic view of Archbishop William’s letter. 
For one, Archbishop Williams has shown that he understands the heart of the issues ripping the Anglican Communion.  He also stated, “It is practically impossible to imagine any further elucidation or elaboration coming from TEC after the successive statements and resolutions from last year’s General Convention onwards… it is extremely unlikely that further meetings will produce any more substantial consensus.”  This shows that he knows that the “listening process” is over, at least as far as the Communion listening to TEC is concerned.
Archbishop Williams has also shown that he understands the plight of the orthodox in TEC: “Because what one local church says is naturally taken as representative of what others might say, we have the painful situation of some communities being associated with views and actions which they deplore….Where such a situation arises… there must be ways in which others can appropriately distance themselves from decisions and policies which they have not agreed.”  Rowan Williams has not given up on APO (“A scheme has been outlined for the pastoral care of those who do not accept the majority view in TEC, but the detail of any consultation or involvement with other provinces as to how this might best work remains to be filled out”) and has stated that there is now a need for action: “Now we need to determine a way forward.”

What so many find disheartening is that the “way forward” that Archbishop Williams envisions takes place at Lambeth, and that TEC is invited to Lambeth.  Still, what Rowan Williams want to accomplish at Lambeth is clear from his letter: he wants to “implement the recommendations of Windsor, including the development of a Covenant.”  What else will be considered?  “Whether in the present circumstances it is possible for provinces or individual bishops at odds with the expressed mind of the Communion to participate fully in representative Communion agencies, including ecumenical bodies.”  The Anglican Communion will have a chance, at Lambeth, to discipline TEC.  The discipline will come from the communion as a whole, rather than one man.

Since this is the opportunity before us, I humbly ask that my Primate and yours, the Rt. Reverend Peter Akinola, attend Lambeth, along with the rest of the primates from the Global South.  This is the time for the orthodox to fight for the heart of Anglican Communion. There are too many people to be reached in North America and in Europe to walk away from two continents worth of secular humanists who adorn their philosophies with Anglican vestments and liturgy.

If Lambeth is to be the battle ground, then let’s fight there.  The orthodox not only have the numbers and the skills to win this battle, they also have the Holy Spirit, and with Him, nothing is impossible.  If, after Lambeth, TEC remains undisciplined, then let us pack our Bibles and our prayer books and wish the Archbishop of Canterbury well, as we continue to build God’s kingdom with the Global South.  Let us not, however, give up now, especially when the hour is so close at hand, and the souls of two continents are at stake.

I thank you for your time.

[283] Posted by selah on 12-15-2007 at 02:17 PM • top

Father Kennedy,  Please see my reply above to Carl, regarding why I am going to Lambeth… Who cares what the rules say NOW? Who cares what Rowan Williams or any other occupant of Lambeth Palace does in the future. We can TAKE OVER this meeting. We can loudly and clearly articulate the Gospel. We can transform the whole stupid affair into a wild African Pentacostal Prayer Metting!!! We can boldly proclaim the Gospel and use the WORD OF GOD (sharper than a two-edged sword) to cut our enemies to ribbons and show them up to be the powerless minions of Hell that we know them to be. In one sense, I do not care about 815. Nor do I really care about Canterbury. The only bit of real estate that I really care about is the New Jerusalem. As a matter of fact, we can take over the Communion, if we want to—reconstitute a NON-Canterbury centered Anglican Communion; an authentic Holy and Catholic Church… then leave… and leave 815 and the gnostics holding the EMPTY SHELL of a dead institution…

[284] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 02:18 PM • top

Selah,

I am copying your letter and sending it to MY Archbishop—Kolini—right now! Thank you! Will we ALL Meet at Lambeth? People have talked about a real time, face-to-face Stand Firm gathering. Why not hold it in England?  smile  Selah, if you agree to go, I’ll pay your air fare!  smile  Christopher Hathaway, the same offer is extended to you!  smile

Anybody else want to come along and stand with Aslan?  smile

[285] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 02:23 PM • top

BlueNarrative,

That is stunningly generous of you.  I will prayerfully consider your offer.

[286] Posted by selah on 12-15-2007 at 02:29 PM • top

bluenarrative,

I saw it. What you seem unable to grasp is that it does not matter whether we “take over the meeting and change the rules”. It does not mean anything. You can make new rules. And Canterbury does not have to follow him. He does not have to invite anyone anywhere no matter who says so. Nor can he be forced to disinvite.

The only thing we can do at this point is set up a rival center

[287] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 02:29 PM • top

Those who argue that we should “visibly demonstrate that the Communion
is sundered” seem to me to argue that we must destroy the Communion in order to save it.  I also notice this circular argument that seems self-defeating: 1) that it is the invitation to (and attendance at) Lambeth that defines membership in the Anglican Communion and 2) that therefore the orthodox should NOT attend?? Does this mean we are urged to forget the Anglican Communion, at least as we have known it?    This would go a lot farther than many bargained for, even if/when they left the Episcopal Church.  I don’t think the average Anglican is prepared for this radical loss.

[288] Posted by Paula on 12-15-2007 at 02:30 PM • top

I am firmly for the establishment of the Orthodox Anglican Communion led by the Global South.  No more conventions, no more Canterbury. Period.

[289] Posted by Enlightened on 12-15-2007 at 02:37 PM • top

Father Kennedy,

As far as you go, you are correct… I suppose… but why not use Lambeth as the PLACE to set up our “rival center?”

If nothing else, we can all have a LOT OF FUN messing around with the heads of the revisionists! The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of USING LAMBETH AS THE PLATFORM TO REASSERT THE FAITH THAT WAS ONCE AND FOR ALL HANDED DOWN TO THE SAINTS…

815 thinks that they are pretty good at PR… I suspect that something like this would blow them out of the water!

Who cares what they do? Who cares what the “rules” are? We take our marching orders from the Lord of Hosts—not the Lord of Lambeth Palace… Why not STAND UP AT LAMBETH AND BOLDLY PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL?

Father Kennedy, what would be the down-side of such a thing?

Actually, not only should the orthodox bishops attend, I think it might be nice if several hundred thousand—or maybe several million—orthodox laity also showed up; staging ongoing prayer vigils throughout the conference; celebrating magnificent Eucharists outside of Canterbury Cathedral; singing incessant hyms and songs of praise to the Lord…

[290] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 02:42 PM • top

Paula, the argument is only circular because you misstate it.

Those invited to lambeth are constituent members of the AC. Since TEC has been invited the Windsor process has been shown to be a sham and a lie. The Episcopal Church has not been disciplined in the only way that it could have been. Without discipline there is no Church.

[291] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 02:45 PM • top

blue narrative,

because “Lambeth” is the palace of the archbishop of Canterbury. It is the property of the Church of England. If someone decided to set up a rival family in my house and tell me who I would and would not invite to be a part of it, I would either kick him out myself or call the police. It is a sin to take what does not belong to you.

[292] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 02:49 PM • top

Whether or not anybody WANTS it or not, is irrelevant… A new orthodox Anglican communion is already taking shape… As most people on this site know, schism was NOT something that the orthodox wanted. Here in North America, we have been relentlessly persecuted and marginalized by the revisionists… The fact of the matter is, this schism is already taking place. And, right now, NOBODY can stop it… So, why not step up the pace a bit—and do so at Canterbury? Why not USE Lambeth as the launching pad for our new Communion? Why not shake the dust of Canterbury (and 815) off our feet on the steps of Canterbury Cathedral… Imagine, say, 900,000 orthodox faithful gathered at Canterbury; each one of these individuals (maybe acting as groups of 20 or 30 at a time) going up onto the steps of the cathedral to VISIBLY and DRAMATICALLY shake the dust from their feet… How long would it take for EVERYBODY to get a chance to mount those steps and shake their feet? many hours, at least… What a stunning VISUAL that would make!

[293] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 02:50 PM • top

Why on earth do you guys think there has been this three year concerted effort to prevent the invitations from going to non-Windsor bishops?

Because that is how the rules have been set up, Matt. But that is no reason why they can’t be changed. Being invited to meet does not naturally signify being in communion. Rome invited the Protestants to Trent. That invitation was certainly no acknowledgment of orthodoxy or communion.

You say: You can make new rules. And Canterbury does not have to follow him.

Well, that is what will have to be decided at Lambeth, isn’t it. Will Canterbury accept a new way of how the Communion is defined, a conciliar defintion in which Canterbury heeds the Council? If not, game over, but if so, it’s a new game.

As for those who say we are seeking to destroy the Communion itself: No. We are only seeking to determine if it is in fact dead, and if it is dead then we determine to bury it as Matt suggests. But I am not yet sure we have exhausted the full measure of remedies. We need to crack the chest of this patient and see if the heart can be shocked into life.

bluenarrative, I have always been this way, but since you are now advocating armed rebellion my natural tendencies are in sinc with yours. I propose giving our foes Tartleton’s quarters wink

[294] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-15-2007 at 02:56 PM • top

Father Kennedy,  Canterbury Cathedral, like ALL Anglican Cathedrals, has ALWAYS BEEN A PLACE OF REFUGE… ANYBODY and EVERYBODY can go to Canterbury Cathedral to escape persecution of any sort… There would be nothing illegal about taking refuge in the Cathedral. The police in England could NOT evict people from the Cathedral, even if they wanted to; even if the Archbishop ordered them to do so; even if the Queen ordered them to do so… I suggest the orthodox bishops attend Lambeth; publicly and dramatically rip up the protocols and agenda for the meeting; march out of Lambeth Palace (I know, I know—they don’t actually meet in the Palace) or wherever the first meeting is held and proceed IMMEDIATELY to Canterbury Cathedral (followed by a phalanx of news reporters from all over the world), take REFUGE in the Cathedral, and THERE hold their COUNTER-LAMBETH, forming the NEW COMMUNION… The Cathedral itself could be surrounded with hundreds of thousands of faithful CHRISTIANS, singing, praying, etc… the CLIMAX would be the “shaking off the dust from their feet” on the cathedral steps before departing…

I do not advocate THEFT of anything… and the sort of “bad manners” that I am, indeed, advocating, are NOTHING to the sort of “bad manners” practiced by St. Paul and the early Fathers of the Church, when faced with persecution and/or heresy…

[295] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 03:01 PM • top

It is a sin to take what does not belong to you.

We would only be taking what is God’s. Why do you think anything in the CofE belongs to anybody but God? If it doesn’t belong to God it isn’t a church and isn’t worth having.

We have every spiritual right to do whatever we can to make this Communion function like a church of Christ if that is what it claims to be.

What have we got to lose if we are already prepared to walk. Needing to be accepted by Canterbury makes us weak. Being free from that needs makes us stronger to face him more boldly. We will be slaves to Christ and no longer slaves to the old Lambeth process and we will then be mre free than Rowan in his weakness and indecision.

And who knows, strange things could happen.

[296] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-15-2007 at 03:07 PM • top

Amen, Bluenarrative!!! I am with you!!!!!! YES, we must stand with Aslan and FIGHT for the Truth!!! I will be a member of the Anglican Communion, in Communion WITH Canterbury, unless or until the last faithful Anglican has left and ALL has been reappraised. Until that happens, there is hope and a reason to evangelize.

For me, to do otherwise is to be the apostles who ran and hid, plotting and planning to protect themselves and regroup while Jesus was hanging on the Cross. John and the women stayed until the bitter end, cared for His Body, and then bore the Good News to the still-hiding others who were skeptical. And what of John and the women if their devotion and faith had not met with the Resurrection? Would they have regretted the time and tears at the Cross? I highly doubt it.

[297] Posted by teatime on 12-15-2007 at 03:11 PM • top

Christopher,

Precisely my point. We do not need Canterbury at all.

But, secondly, no, Lambeth Palace does not belong to us and taking it over would be akin to theft.

And, yes, bluenarrative, the police can certainly evict you if the Archbishop asks them too. It is only a place of refuge if refuge is granted by the authorities in charge.

In the same way if you decided to hold a sit-in in my parish on Sunday morning, either the ushers or the police would hoist you on your petard in short order.

This conversation is becoming more and more absurd.

[298] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 03:12 PM • top

Father Kennedy,  Let me make a minor point of ethics here… Suppose a thief comes into your house and STEALS, say, your silverware. The local police are corrupt. And when you go to them and complain, the refuse to apprehend the thieves or to retrieve your silverware… You can, I suppose, ASK the thieves to return your goods to you. But they will probably laugh at you… At what point are you ENTITLED to break into the thieves lair and RETRIEVE YOUR OWN POSSESIONS? Are you, in fact, “stealing” from the thieves?

It seems to me, THAT is the situation with 815

We have gone to the police. They are corrupt and are in the pay of 815—they have said they will do NOTHING. We have talked to the thieves. And they have laughed at us. Let us now go to their tea party (we have, after all, been INVITED by these bizarre thieves to attend a tea party hosted by them in England next year), and while there, TAKE BACK WHAT IS OURS—the precious Gospel of our Lord and Savior…

Yes, give our enemies Tarleton’s quarter! smash up their filthy tea party while we leave with our own possessions. Use their tea party as an opportunity to snatch precious sould from the clutches of the enemy.

Father Kennedy,  Consider how much evil these people have done and will continue to do if left unchecked. Any way you put it, you are advocating that we “obey the laws” and simple stand idly by while trainloads of innocent people are transported to spiritual death camps… You are welcome to your opinion, but I intend to do EVERYTHING THAT GOD EMPOWERS ME TO DO TO STOP THOSE TRAINS!

And Lambeth seems like a wonderful opportunity to REALLY mess with their timetables, big-time!

Who will go with me to Lambeth? Who will stand with Aslan? Who will cower in their tents as Goliath mocks the God of Israel? Who will trust our Lord when he PROMISED US that the Gates of Hell will NOT prevail?

[299] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 03:17 PM • top

Father Kennedy,  I am a British subject and I am VERY WELL schooled in British law. NO—nobody; nobody;nobody can EVER be evicted from an English church or Cathedral, so long as they claim the right of sanctuary. NOBODY CAN BE EVICTED FROM AN ENGLISH CHURCH for any reason whatsoever. I suggest that you do only a cursory Lexus search, if you doubt me… And, by the way, neither Lambeth Palace nor any other clerical residence in England “belongs” to the occupant. Technically, they are what is referred to as “grace and favor” houses—granted at the full discretion of the Queen. ABC could no more evict anybody from Lambeth Palace than he could from a local council housing block… In theory, the Queen could—but do you honestly believe that SHE is going to risk pissing off 3/4 of the Commonwealth nations, simply to appease the Presiding Priestess of 815?

[300] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 03:24 PM • top

Bluenarrative, I understand your desire for the “orthodox bishops attend Lambeth; publicly and dramatically rip up the protocols and agenda for the meeting; march out of Lambeth Palace ...take REFUGE in the Cathedral, and THERE hold their COUNTER-LAMBETH, forming the NEW COMMUNION… “

But it has zero chance of happening for more reasons than we can discribe in this blog.

If you examine Williams statements re Lambeth over the last couple of years, his statements re TEC Windsor Compliance (Standing Committee Report, NO, etc.), the logistical arrangements and control of Lambeth, and the realities of attendance at this stage (and resulting voting majority), you realize that nothing good will come out of Lambeth other than an affirmation of TEC’s continuing participation in the Anglican Communion.

If you have been waiting on gaining control of a Lambeth oriented Communion, or a straight up vote to expell TEC from Primates, you may want to get accustomed to the new reality.

[301] Posted by Going Home on 12-15-2007 at 03:29 PM • top

bluenarrative,

You are missing the point entirely. Lambeth is not our palace. It is the palace of the ABC. If he chooses to hold a conference he may invite whosoever he chooses to invite. No amount of whining or protesting or passing resolutions or anything else will ever change that. It is his party. Not ours. That is what Lambeth is.

So, if we want to have another party we do not invite them to lambeth palace. Very simple.

I imagine the absurdity of this thread is becoming too much for most readers to bear.

[302] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 03:30 PM • top

smash up their filthy tea party while we leave with our own possessions.

Actually, it is theirs - entrusted to them by God, for the purpose of sanctifying His Church (i.e., us).  They can no more ‘steal’ from God, then Belshazzar can steal from God. 

What belongs to us, ultimately, is our Birthright.  Some of us may have to console ourselves in that, and little else.  But - that’s a good thing.  It forces us to work harder, with less. 

I won’t loose sleep if the Southern Cone shows up in toto, partially, or not at all.  It seems to me that they’ve a fairly good grasp on things.

[303] Posted by Moot on 12-15-2007 at 03:34 PM • top

Pageantmaster:  You are being very articulate on this thread.

Off topic:  I’ve decided that this must be a southern blog.  And how do I know this? I know this because, except for Matt+ and a few others (four of us in NH), a lot of you are talking about planting blueberry bushes and that would be a tough job in NH.

Bill   smile

[304] Posted by Bill C on 12-15-2007 at 03:54 PM • top

You are missing the point entirely. Lambeth is not our palace. It is the palace of the ABC. If he chooses to hold a conference he may invite whosoever he chooses to invite. No amount of whining or protesting or passing resolutions or anything else will ever change that. It is his party. Not ours. That is what Lambeth is.

I don’t think you are understanding what we are saying. We have already been invited. Venables is invited. Akinola is invited, Duncan is invited, etc, etc. Let those orthodox bishops come to Lambeth. Once there they can make their last stand. We are not talking about physically taking Lambeth palace anywhere (so the objection of ownership seems absurd). We are talking about seizing the agenda. There is no divine right to a stupid agenda. God has nowhere ordained that these pinheads can set the rules for gatherings when they invite free individuals to them. They may think they have that right, and we have acquiessed out of a feeling of brotherhood and trust in ther leadership. That trust no longer exists. Let us go there, confront them in their presence and if they kick us out or shut us down we will have accomplished one thing that would be impossible if we didn’t go: we will have physically demonstrated our separation. Don’t underestimate the power of a public display.

[305] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-15-2007 at 04:00 PM • top

Oh ye of little faith…

Going Home,  With God ALL THINGS are possible. One of the best sermons I ever heard in my life made the point that, as Christians, we should eliminate the word “impossible” from our vocabularies.

I sense that the army of Aslan is gathering, even as we chatter away on this thread. Yes, it will probably be an army that is made up of “fanciful” types, like me… Those gathering now are those I have met in Africa and in Asia—they are poor, they are powerless, they are unsophisticated, they are broken people who are desperately aware of their need to cling to Jesus, no metter what the cost… Just the sort of people that Jesus seems to approve of as far as I can see.

Father Kennedy and Moot—you may remain in the relative comfort of your respective homes and ignore this call to battle. But I cannot. Too much is at stake here. I am sure that I am going about this all wrong; and that I shall make many grave errors and do many stupid things as I formulate my plans and begin to march towards the front lines. But, at least, nobody will be able to accuse me of shirking my duty.

I am going to Lambeth.

I am looking around for those who will go with me, and fight with me. I have no illusions whatsoever about the might of the enemy arrayed against us. I do NOT think that this will be a cakewalk, at all. On the contrary, it is going to be a horrific and most bloody battle. I understand that there is no guarantee of my own personal (spiritual) safety—I have been severely wounded by TEC and their minions many times in the past. And I do NOT look forward to suffering at their hands again. But I know where my duty lies—I know to whom I owe my FIRST loyalty; and to whom I owe unswerving obedience: Jesus…

I do not call those that refuse to join in the fight “cowards.” But it grieves me that my fellow Christians will not stand beside me as I face the onslaught of the enemy… Be that as it may…

Who will go to Lambeth with me?
Who will stand with Aslan?
Who will help me to STOP THE TRAINS transporting countless numbers of innocent people to spiritual death camps?
Who will stand up and boldly proclaim the authentic Gospel of our Lord Jesus, for all the world to hear?

God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Father Kennedy and Moot are probably right—I am foolish.

But, I suspect, Aslan is looking for some truly foolish warriors right now…

Who will go with me to Lambeth? Who will join me and stand with Aslan?

[306] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 04:00 PM • top

Matt, I I don’t think I am misrepresenting your meaning.  It is this:  “I am arguing that the Canterbury based Communion, however, is a dead branch. And as such, it must be cut off”  (Matt+).  I don’t believe there will be as much support for this non-Canterbury solution as its proponents believe, and in fact I see our forces splintering right here before our eyes.  Yes, I agree with bluenarrative, Christopher Hathaway, teatime, and the others who see the possibilities offered by Lambeth—possibilities, at the very least, for publicity for the orthodox view.  Such a platform should not be despised.  I have said for months that the orthodox should attend in force and show their power.  One last try is worth it, and the world ought to see it.

[307] Posted by Paula on 12-15-2007 at 04:03 PM • top

Paula,  To you, also, along with Selah and Christopher and others who have agreed to go, I offer to foot the bill for your airfare… Thank you, Paula, for standing with me. Thank you for standing up to our enemies. Thank you, most of all, for your precious faith in our Lord and Savior. With God, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

[308] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 04:09 PM • top

Folks, I am stepping in here and saying that accusing people of ignoring the call to battle is off-limits here.

Please do not cast aspersions on people’s characters just because they do not agree with your specific strategy or tactics. 

Going to Lambeth, staying away from Lambeth—it’s fine to critique or analyze either strategy.  But claiming that someone’s position on this matter has to do with their character is out of bounds at StandFirm.

Thanks.

[309] Posted by Sarah on 12-15-2007 at 04:11 PM • top

Chris Hathaway and Paula,

I have no doubt that all invited could certainly seize the agenda and make a grand display with magnificent resolutions and make dramatic motions etc…and then they would go home and TEC having been invited will simply ignore all that was done and said as will the ACO and ABC because TEC’s connection to the communion is determined by her connection to Canterbury and that is determined solely and wholly by Canterbury—not the primates, not the ACC, not Lambeth…but by Canterbury.

Unless you change the character of the Communion so that Canterbury is not the determining factor, then the scenario above will be repeated ad naseum. The way to circumvent Canterbury is not the Lambeth Conference…it is set up a seperate center altogether

[310] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-15-2007 at 04:17 PM • top

Sarah Hey,  I offer sincere apologies if I seemed to be doing that—it was not my intention, but sometimes I do get a bit worked up and speak in unmeasured cadences and in irresponsible tones. I apologize to anybody and everybody who may have felt that I was (even subtlely or very indirectly) being critical of their character or casting aspersion on their motives. If I did that, it was wrong. And I would humbly ask anybody who felt slighted to forgive me. I am truly sorry.

[311] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 04:17 PM • top

Sarah, you needn’t be so defensive or protective. There is good reason to ignore a call to battle if you think the battle shouldn’t be fought, if you think nothing good can come of the fight.

That is what we are arguing. Matt seems to be saying the battle has no hope of victory and even engaging would lose us gropund. I say that victory is not impossible, and that even a loss would be advantageous if it serves to make our break more public.

[312] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-15-2007 at 04:21 PM • top

LOL, maybe we need to call in Johnny English to handle the security.

[313] Posted by Hope on 12-15-2007 at 04:22 PM • top

I realize we may have to go with a non-Canterbury solution—I will not be so very surprised, after all we have seen and been through—but I wish it would not be before we are actually without options in the Anglican Communion as it stands.  I see opportunities for the orthodox side at the projected Lambeth, and I do not see the reason yet to say “It makes no difference.”  There is the chance to render this Lambeth something different than “business as usual”; it is cast now an unusual session.  Let us use it.

[314] Posted by Paula on 12-15-2007 at 04:27 PM • top

Martin Luther King, Jr. organized the March on Washington in about 5 weeks. He anticipated something like 30 to 50 thousand might show up. Roughly 300,000 gathered on the Mall. And history was changed. Dramatically. His “play book” is readily available. Lenin had about 4 weeks to plan his takeover of the Duma. He had only 9 other party members sitting in the Duma, and less than 3000 party members in total. He took over the podium, and 10 tens later he had created the Soviet Union. His “play book” is also readily available. I have a little bit of experience organizing political events. I also have a little bit of experience organizing various church-related events, both large and small. I am serious about communicating with other like-minded people about using Lambeth as a staging ground for a movement of orthodox Anglicans. Anybody who wants to discuss this further with me, feel free to write to me directly at “blue.narrative.blue@gmail.com”... I can use all the help that I can get.

[315] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 04:32 PM • top

Fulcrum weighs in (& T19 provides the link):
”. . .
The Archbishop has clearly opted for the Communion Conservative position
. . .
In the writing of his Advent Letter, the Archbishop of Canterbury has opened up the possibility of a large Lambeth Conference in July 2008. We pray that all those bishops who are willing to work together with implementing the recommendations of the Windsor Report, including the development of a Covenant, respond positively to the invitation. “

I, for one, join their prayers.

http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=256

Peace,

[316] Posted by miserable sinner on 12-15-2007 at 04:34 PM • top

Unless you change the character of the Communion so that Canterbury is not the determining factor, then the scenario above will be repeated ad naseum. The way to circumvent Canterbury is not the Lambeth Conference…it is set up a seperate center altogether


I was talking about changing the character of the Communion, and using the Lambeth Conference to begin it. If our forces don’t go, what you foresee happening with TEC will certainly happen anyway. Or do you think you can change Rowan’s mind buy not going? I think it more likely he will accept the smaller gathering that attends as the new shape of the Communion and go on from there. I think we have a better chance of directing him our way if we are there to present him the choice and to influence many of the moderates who will be there as well.

An historical example: in 1640 Parliament could not meet until the king called it. But the king needed money for his war with Scotland and he couldn’t raise money without Parliament, so he called a Parliament. Once Parliament was called it did what it wanted, not what the king wanted. Now Parlaiment calls the shots and the “sovereign” rumber staps it all.

Revolutions can happen.

[317] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-15-2007 at 04:34 PM • top

bluenarrative,

You wrote

I suggest the orthodox bishops attend Lambeth; publicly and dramatically rip up the protocols and agenda for the meeting; march out of Lambeth Palace … and proceed IMMEDIATELY to Canterbury Cathedral… 

I am relieved that you said “proceed,” however there is still the problem of “IMMEDIATELY” to be dealt with. I believe that the Lambeth meetings are to be held in London. Assuming somewhere proximate to Lambeth Palace, the orthodox bishops (and the press) will not be able to get to Canterbury Cathedral in any sort of time that might be considered “IMMEDIATE” because the Cathedral is about 57 miles by road from Lambeth Palace via the shortest route between the two. That trip, by car, should take something like two hours, or a bit more. This snag might tend to drain a bit of the drama out of the scenario you envision.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[318] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-15-2007 at 04:38 PM • top

that is, he rubber stamps it all

[319] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-15-2007 at 04:38 PM • top

I believe Lambeth is going to be held in Kent, not London. Canterbury is in Kent.

Bluenarrative, I may be able to attend (I have BA miles I can use, LOL) and have friends I can stay with in Surrey part of the time. Can you investigate accommodation near the site for us?

[320] Posted by teatime on 12-15-2007 at 04:45 PM • top

teatime,

Thank you for the correction. However, Kent is a fairly large county by English standards, and depending on the location in Kent, it might still be quite a distance from the conference site to Canterbury Cathedral.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[321] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 12-15-2007 at 04:59 PM • top

When I referred to the “non-Canterbury solution,” I did not mean anything negative at all about the DSJ action or CCP or other arrangements with international primates.  I know that +Schofield, for instance, intends to go to Lambeth and values the legitimacy of being part of the Canterbury-centered Communion.  I am certain he would agree with those who want to advance the cause of orthodoxy at Lambeth.  Many of us have had to leave TEC but we did it with the understanding that we would continue in communion with Canterbury.  This is the group—a large group, I believe—for whom I am trying to speak.  It is not all the same to us if we are NOT to be in the Canterbury-centered Anglican Communion, and I hope our leaders are taking this into account.

[322] Posted by Paula on 12-15-2007 at 05:03 PM • top

Although he says

  Second: I have underlined in my letter of invitation that acceptance of the invitation must be taken as implying willingness to work with those aspects of the Conference’s agenda that relate to implementing the recommendations of Windsor, including the development of a Covenant.

the actual prgrame posted on the official website does not mention either Windsor or a Covenant:

Lambeth Conference 2008
16 July to 4 August 2008
University of Kent, Canterbury, England
Programme
Lambeth Conference 2008 - Equipping Bishops to Fulfil Their Leadership Role in God’s Mission.

The aims of the Conference are that all bishops attending will:
  * be restored and refreshed spiritually
  * gain deeper knowledge of each other
  * be more aware of the spiritual and physical resources that God has given them to meet missionary challenges in different parts of the world
  * have greater understanding and appreciation of life together in the Anglican Communion
  * address conflict
  * discover a new level of trust in common service to God
  * gain greater understanding of the contribution Anglicanism can make to the worldwide church and the world
These will be reached through spending time together in spiritual reflection, learning, sharing experiences and discerning their particular role in God’s mission for the world.

http://www.lambethconference.org/lc2008/programme/index.cfm

[323] Posted by Deja Vu on 12-15-2007 at 05:22 PM • top

The Lambeth Conference Design Group 2008 is chaired by The Most Revd Sir Ellison Pogo,  KBE, Archbishop of Melanesia & Bishop of Central Melanesia, Church of Melanesia.

Other members are:

  * The Most Revd Ian Ernest, Archbishop of the Indian Ocean & Bishop of Mauritius, Province of the Indian Ocean
  * The Rt Revd Colin Fletcher, OBE Bishop of Dorchester, Church of England
  * The Rt Revd Thabo Makgoba, Bishop of Grahamstown, Anglican Church of Southern Africa
  * The Rt Revd Miguel Tamayo , Bishop of Uruguay, Province of the Southern Cone, Interim Bishop of Cuba
  * The Rt Revd James Tengatenga, Bishop of Southern Malawi, Province of Central Africa
  * The Revd Dr Ian Douglas, Professor of World Mission and Global Christianity at the Episcopal Divinity School in Masachussets, USA
  * Ms Fung-Yi Wong , a lawyer from the province of Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui.

http://www.lambethconference.org/lc2008/planning/design_group.cfm

[324] Posted by Deja Vu on 12-15-2007 at 05:30 PM • top

I found ABC’s letter frustrating in the sense that there was no definitive opinion and solution offered on what has brought us to this place other than let’s come together and talk. 
If by some miracle of God, all bishops could be required (even Gene and the newly ordained from whatever province) to attend Lambeth and then they’re locked and sealed in a place from which they can not emerge until there was agreed consensus and resolution (and be disciplined not without great penalty to it in thought, word, and deed) , I would feel better about Anglicanism.  If they ended up spending the rest of their lives in that place because there was no agreeable consensus, that is consensus but by that fact these bishop don’t get to be released. Thus on entering that place they know no consensus is not an option to emerge.
If and when they emerged and the decision was an anathema to me, then the Anglican/Episcopal church is not where I need to be.  This would hold true for all those who are liberal and conservative minded.
The in-Lambeth resolution should also spell out with great but fair difficulty the hurdle of group departure from the Church. 
It would be a scary time during the resolution determining period.  But it would be a time in which all who believe in the true bride of Christ, the church, to be on their knees in prayer and fasting.
As it is no one “has” to do or agree upon anything so whatever is discussed is just that, an interesting discussion..and the clock ticks on, and on, and on.

[325] Posted by WillD on 12-15-2007 at 06:00 PM • top

Oh when the Saints, go marching OUT! I want to be in that number…..

[326] Posted by Enlightened on 12-15-2007 at 06:11 PM • top

One wonders if the ABC saw   this before releasing his “Advent” letter.  Whether or not he did, the 18th will be a red letter day for Anglicanism, eh?  His timing for the letter looks abysmal (like the letter, itself).

[327] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 12-15-2007 at 06:23 PM • top

Ah, insurrection night on SFF.

Count me in for the Lambeth trip. I want to participate in a die-in for the unborn children killed by the progressive’s abortion programs. We could dress in sheets to model the traditional pictures of Jesus, and take the fetal position in front of Canterbury Cathedral. Imagine thousands of Christians in sheets, holding staffs for the cameras. Oh, and we could weep before the cameras.

This discussion has raised an interesting point. As congregations are displaced from their churches, could the orthodox go to a nearby church and join. They could vote out the vestry and make its programs orthodox - puff, another TEC church goes down. This could go across the country in a wave. Why, congregations could become members at several parishes, and puff, puff, (puff ....).

Sorry, I was busy yesterday and didn’t have a palate cleaning.

[328] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-15-2007 at 06:43 PM • top

Martial Artist,

I have been to Lambeth Palace and to Canterbury Cathedral. I suppose that I should have been more precise, rather than speaking in broad and figurative terms. Obviously, Lambeth Palace cannopt accomodate a gathering of so many bishops, and the conference will be held elsewhere… Somewhere on the grounds of the University of Kent, as I understand it. I am not well-acquainted with the layout—or even the precise location—of this university. But the important part of the scenario that I (rather fancifully) envision, is that the orthodox bishops should make their way—by bus or train,m if necessary—to Canterbury Cathedral and claim “sanctuary” there… Nobody really “marched” on Washington, you know, when Martin Luther King, Jr. staged his March on Washington. But, eventually, they all congregated on the Mall in Washington. And more than 300 years of race relations in America were THROWN INTO REVERSE that day.

The most important part of the scenario that I envision, is the orthodox seeking “sanctuary” in Canterbury Cathedral—and THERE (the cathedral will, in fact, accomodate all of the bishops and still leave ample room for the gathered press of the world) RECONSTRUCT the Anglican Communion…

Christopher Hathaway is right. Revolutions DO happen. And not all revolutions are bad things. (Though I concede that MOST have probably been rather unfortunate affairs.)

On Lexington Green and by the Concord Bridge, less than 100 “Minutemen”—farmers armed with homemade muskets—stood up to the miliatry might of the British Empire, represented on that day by a force of British regulars, well-trained and well-armed professional soldiers, that outnumbered the Americans by almost 30 to one.

In making this, apparently futile (and fanciful) gesture, those American farmers changed the course of history.

We know from first-hand accounts, that each and every one of those farmers fully expected to be slaughtered by the British troops marching against them. They had absolutely NO HOPE at all for any sort of victory that day; nor did they have any hope that, even if they survived the immediate clash of arms, that they would not be hunted down and slaughtered in the aftermath of battle… And we also know that those simple farmers stood their ground that day ON PRINCIPLE—because to do otherwise would have been to accede to tyranny of the worst sort…

By the end of that day (actually, about four hours after the first shot was fired) thousands of British soldiers lay dead along the roadway leading back to Boston. The British were decisively routed, and the ENTIRE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH AMERICA was cowering under seige in Boston. Their ONE HOPE of escape from the city of Boston is now known as the Battle of Bunker Hill. And we now know how THAT turned out.

It took the British almost TWO YEARS to send over an army to relieve the troops trapped in Boston. And it took General George Washington only about four more years to finally receive the surrender of Cornwallis—in command of an army approximately TEN TIMES the size of the American forces that had trapped him on Yorktown Penninsula.

[329] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 07:10 PM • top

If a Lambeth trip is a real possibility, we should look into group rates. Those usually need to be in place about 6 months in advance. Also, the Lambeth meeting is close to high tourist season with its good an bad points.  Visibility! grin High costs! :-(

[330] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-15-2007 at 07:29 PM • top

bluenarrative - this is a complete aside, but you brought back some wonderful memories.  I was living in Concord, Ma, in 1976 during the bicentennial - a group of us neophyte Christians (we were “Jesus Freaks” then) had a blast street witnessing for Christ on the streets of Concord to the tourists who came from everywhere.  My faith was so simple then!  It is still simple, but it has been steeped in the bitter TEC toxins for too long.  Back in ‘76 a friend and I were renting the curate’s house from Trinity Episcopal and running into the chapel to pray on a regular basis.  That was my first contact with an Episcopal Church.  By 1977, I was attending The Church of the Good Shepherd, Watertown, Ma…attracted to the church because of “history, reason and tradition”.  Thank you for the memories, both sweet and poignant.  As for Dr. N, what are the dates of Lambeth?

[331] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 12-15-2007 at 08:20 PM • top

Christopher Hathaway writes:

What have we got to lose if we are already prepared to walk? Needing to be accepted by Canterbury makes us weak. Being free from that needs makes us stronger to face him more boldly. We will be slaves to Christ and no longer slaves to the old Lambeth process and we will then be more free than Rowan in his weakness and indecision.

That is a very good point. If you have nothing to lose by going, then why not go?

[332] Posted by selah on 12-15-2007 at 08:35 PM • top

Lambeth Meeting is 10 Jul - 3 Aug.

[333] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-15-2007 at 08:59 PM • top

Here is the link to the program of the Lambeth meeting - not yet listed, but a site to watch.
http://www.lambethconference.org/lc2008/programme/index.cfm

[334] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-15-2007 at 09:05 PM • top

Dr. N,  YES!!! I love your idea; and YES, revisionists actually KILL BABIES, as well as dupe people down the wide highway to Hell.

My ideas about Canterbury are real. I have been busy all evening getting this thing organized, networking with others on the orthodox side, and starting to draw up REAL PLANS. I am looking for all the help that I can get to make this thing REALLY HAPPEN.

Group rates sound good to me. But I would like to see a LOT of AFRICAN laity present, as well as North Americans. I have already learned that for the cost of flying about 100 Americans to Lambeth, we could charter a SHIP to transport several thousand Africans to the UK…

I think it might be nice to charter, oh, maybe, one or two hundred such ships—perhaps as many as four hundred ships. They could carry orthodox Anglicans from all over the world to the UK for Lambeth…

Group rates would certainly apply for such a massive chartered fleet. From what I have learned thus far, it seems that the sums of money involved are actually quite reasonable and within the means of a small committed group of people willing to make some not unreasonable financial sacrifices, in order to bear witness to what is going on in the Anglican fold these days.

Personally, I am willing to invest a LOT of my personal financial resources, in order to thwart the works of Satan. Today, I have received numerous emails from all over the world that seem to suggest that a LOT of other fairly prosperous Christians are also willing to invest in such an enterprise.

Assuming that a fleet of several hundred ships could be chartered (and I have been assured today that such a thing is not really difficult to do, though it would be “a first,” and it would require a lot of detailed planning in advance), this would mean that for a relatively small amount of money per person, at least a quarter of a million or so Africans would be able to join us at Lambeth. And probably another quarter of a million or so North Americans could make the trip, as well. All at a much lower cost than flying these people in from various parts of the world.

Beyond the logistics and the financial savings involved, the volume of money spent to put together this flotilla would almost assuredly entitle the organizers to TEMPORARILY RENAME (for the duration of the voyage to and fromn the UK) all of these ships. Now, if it were up to me (and right now it appears that it might well be up to me, before this thing is done), I would temporarily re-christen (no joke intended) ALL of the ships “Exodus.” To name each and every chartered ship “Exodus” would obviously suggest the Biblical nature of the enterprise. It would also be a name that would ironically and deeply resonate with British colonial history—and there is no way that our Anglican heritage can ever be disentangled from British colonial history.

If enough North Americans express interest in going to Lambeth, then right now it looks as if ships might be a more efficient means of transport, for a number of reasons, finances being only one of these considerations. Ideally, I would like to see at least ONE MILLION orthodox Christians descend upon Great Britain, though I would be happy to see half as many of the orthodox faithful show up at Lambeth.

The logistics of handling the requisite number of flights to accomodate this many people are almost insurmountable. And the British transportation authorities could easily and with impunity refuse landing priviledges to so many aircraft. But there is no problem landing many thousands of ships at various British ports. And they could make no practical objections to this influx of orthodox Christians arriving by sea.

Accomodations once we are all gathered in the UK at Canterbury WILL be a problem—rather a large one, I am afraid. It would be unrealistic to expect God to send forth Manna from heaven, though one never knows… As far as lodging, food, and other such things, I anticipate that we will have to throw ourselves upon the hospitality of our fellow-orthodox in England. I can envision a lot of people camping out inside various orthodox churches, staying with sympathetic Chrisitians in the UK, etc., etc…

Again, let me say: I am serious about this… Does anybody care to HELP me to organize it?

[335] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 09:12 PM • top

Absolutely.  As soon as I’m done finishing with all these pesky e-mails from Nigerian and Ethipoan princes awaiting financial windfalls, a hefty percentage of which would be mine, once I’m through giving them all my account information.  Once I’m done with them, I’ll get back to you…

[336] Posted by Vintner on 12-15-2007 at 09:24 PM • top

Smuggs smile

[337] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 09:37 PM • top

Smuggs, you get them too, and you took my thought.

Think counter-Woodstock/counter-Bannaroo as a venue. Whip ‘em up in the evening, and bus them to events in the morning.  Is there a music festival nearby or large stadium.  I think you need a field for a tent city.

[338] Posted by Dr. N. on 12-15-2007 at 10:01 PM • top

Father Kennedy,  Let me begin by saying that I am sorry if I have rattled you somewhat today, or seemed harsh with you at times. Believe it or not, I have massive respect for you. And I am largely in total agreement with all of your overarching principles. But I do not believe that it is futile for the orthodox to attend Lambeth. And, yes, I think that AS MANY OF THE ORTHODOX AS POSSIBLE should be gathered in England when Lambeth convenes. To bear witness to the truth. And to loudly and boldly proclaim the true Gospel, which is, after all, the ONLY means of salvation.

It is late. And I have been busy all afternoon and evening communicating with friends and strangers from all over the world, trying to get a massive demonstration (maybe “witness” is a better word) organized at Canterbury Cathedral during the upcoming Lambeth Conference.

I am not really the spiritual visigoth that you seem to imagine me to be.

I do NOT intend to really “smash up” anything in England, except, perhaps, the complacency of those who have dithered while the revisionists have hijacked my Church. And maybe the self-assurance of the revisionists themselves.

Obviously, nothing (short of a genuine miracle) that takes place at the Lambeth Conference is going to change ANYTHING on the ground here in North America. 815 is going to pursue their diabolical course of action no matter what ANYBODY says or does at Lambeth. We all agree on that.

But there is a truly great opportunity here for us to bear witness to what has been going on. And also a great opportunity for us to articulate—in such a way that the whole world can understand it—the difference between the true Gospel of Jesus and the false gospel of 815; to articulate the dramatic differences between the One Holy Catholic Church and the false church now in control of 815 (and maybe also Lambeth palace.)

Has anybody ever tallied up the number of orthodox priests that have been inhibited and deposed since VGR got his pat on the back? I was in Milwaukee when VGR was consecrated. Within a few weeks after that awful GC, our local bishop inhibited DOZENS of orthodox priests in the diocese; literally, EVERY orthodox priest in the diocese. He declared every orthodox parish in the diocese suddenly a “missionary parish.” He fired all orthodox (or, in some cases, only quasi-orthodox) priests. He dismissed the vestries of every orthodox oe even semi-orthodox parishes. He appointed “vicars” (in every case either a priestess and/or a homosexual) to all of these parishes. And he then transferred the endowments and trusts of these parishes into his own discretionary funds. As if this was not enough, he then swore out THOUSANDS of “orders of protection” against any and every lay person even remotely suspected of orthodoxy, so that if they ever set foot inside an Episcopal church in the Diocese of Milwaukee, he could have them prosecuted as felons. I was served with such papers, as were thousands of others.

These sorts of things have gone on all over the country, in every revisionist diocese, for years now. There simply is not enough time or money to fight so many battles on so many fronts. The orthodox opposition in TEC was very effectively “smashed up” long ago.

But why NOT use Lambeth as an opportunity to recount these tales—loudly and clearly—from the steps of Canterbury Cathedral, before an assemble throng of hundreds of thousands of orthodox faithful, and before the assembled press and media of the whole world.

Up to now, there has been almost NO MENTION of these spiritual atrocities in any of the mainstream media. Could they continue to ignore the truth if it was systematically articulated BY THOSE TO WHOM THESE THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE on the steps of Canterbury Cathedral?

There is NOTHING TO LOSE if the orthodox go to Lambeth (figuratively speaking) and BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH.

The nonsense that has been going on in northern Virginia is NOTHING compared to the stuff that has been going on in places where there has been NO ORGANIZED OPPOSITION, as there was in northern Virginia. Long before Bishop Lee and the crowd from 815 made their moves, there was a loose consortium of large, prosperous orthodox churches in northern Virginia. And, so far, they have been able to hold back the darness issuing forth from 815.

But in many, many, many other parts of this country, the story has been quite different. Christians have, literally, been evicted from their churches. Revisionist bishops have STOLEN untold sums of money—seized maney from orthodox parishes BEFORE it could be employed to defend these churches from the fury of the revisionists.

I am on pretty good terms with the folks in Pittsburgh, and I can tell you that for months and months and months the Networl phones were ringing incessasntly as countless pleas for help poured in from parishes all over the country. The volume was such that was simply NOTHING that Bishop Duncan could do.

SOMEDAY this story is going to be told. But that has not happened up to now. Why not START to tell this story from the steps of Canterbury Cathedral during the upcoming Lambeth Conference?

Father Kennedy, you are right—NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE BECAUSE OF LAMBETH… But don’t we have a spiritual obligation to REBUKE sinners and call them to repent of their sins? Don’t we have a spiritual obligation to bear witness to the true faith? Don’t we have a spiritual obligation to expose spiritual charlatans and wolves in sheep’s clothing?

THAT is why I am going to Lambeth. And THAT is why I think every orthodox Anglican who can should be there. Millions of us, if possible. To bear witness to the truth. To do otherwise, in my opinion, would be irresponsible.

I am going to Lambeth. I hope a LOT of others decide to join me there. For whatever it is worth, Father Kennedy, I’d be happy to foot the bill for YOU TOO, should you care to join us. I promise you that we won’t violate any laws. And I promise you that we won’t really smash anything up. But we will bear witness to the truth. And we will witness the rebirth of a new Anglican Communion, an authentic branch of the Catholic Church…

[339] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 10:38 PM • top

Father Matt,

You might be right about Canterbury-centred Anglicanism being a dead branch. But in this letter I do see signs of life. He isn’t being gung-ho or American in issuing ultimatums and action points, but I do see a slow process of inching towards the inevitable, and the inevitable is discipline. (If there is no mechanism for such discipline, what is a conciliar Archbishop to do but call the Lambeth Conference?) It took several hundred years to scotch the Arian heretics, can we cut the Lord Archbishop some slack? I understand the dreadful plight of many in Revisionist dioceses, and oppressed by shameful lawsuits, but +Cantuar’s job is to persuade not just those in the Global South or those who have experienced the carnage and hence are ready for discipline, but his own largely moderate white and Western constituency, both in the C of E and in the wider Communion. He needs the support of Ireland, Wales, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa; or at least as much of it as he can get so as to give him domestic cover, and hold the ship together.

You might say we are dead branches too, but we are branches familiar to readers of The Guardian . The Church of England is a National Church; he must keep it safe and take as much of it with him as he can, and this is at least one thing he is attempting to do.

[340] Posted by Andrewesman on 12-15-2007 at 10:44 PM • top

Blue narrative - and I thought NH was bad!  Of course, there was so much already in place for the VGR ascension, courtesy of Douglas Theuner that there weren’t many orhtodox left in the diocese.  Count me in for Lambeth.

[341] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 12-15-2007 at 11:06 PM • top

Andrewesman, the primates spoke unanimously at DeS. Yet, the ABC intentionally chose a review process that muddled this overwhelming consensus (1/3 of primates and 2/3 of ACC members did not participate—fairly telling). He fought the deadline at the conference and denied it in New Orleans. There is consensus for the Anglican Communion to take action against the aggressive revisionism of the TEC. Nary a peep would be raised if the TEC were to be reduced to guest status at Lambeth and the nonvoting status in the ACC extended. These are very measured responses. Giving the ABC a “break” is the last thing we need to do, rather we need to show our outrage.

The situation is grave. Because the Church could take a century to stamp out Arianism is irrelevant. The AC will be dead in a few years, torn apart by the actions of the TEC. It is careening towards the cliff right now. Starting to apply the brakes now might even be too late.

[342] Posted by robroy on 12-15-2007 at 11:11 PM • top

no longer NH Episcopalian,

Consider yourself counted! I am delighted to have you sign on with us! smile

Yes, it DOES all feel terribly 60’s-ish or something… But it also feels good.

What shall we term it? “Anti-Lambeth”? “un-Lambeth” Any suggestions out there?

Just for the record: 815 seems to already be sending “pings” my way, or whatever the correct naval terminology is… How easily they get spooked. By simple Christians struggling to live out their faith.

[343] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 11:12 PM • top

Robroy,  You’re right on the money! Have you been following this thread? Will you come to Lambeth with the rest of us firebrands to SHOW YOUR OUTRAGE?  smile

[344] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-15-2007 at 11:15 PM • top

Hey folks, this has turned into a “go to Lambeth and march” thread, which is not the topic of the thread—that is the ABC’s Advent Letter.

Please take all the plans to go to Lambeth off-blog.  You can use the Contact button for emailing one another.

Thanks.

[345] Posted by Sarah on 12-16-2007 at 07:02 AM • top

While plans progress for a sort of grassroots Anglican Dunkirk-in-reverse, one other possible area of action should not be overlooked, to wit:

There is no question that VGR will be scurrying about around the fringes of Lambeth, giving media interviews, hobnobbing with ++Morgan, photo-opping with Mrs. Schori, emailing treacly bulletins to RevSusan, and generally Not Being The Gay Bishop.  This suggests that we should make sure that at least +Minns is also hanging around, along with any other CANA (and of course Ugandan, Kenyan, AMiA, etc.) bishops that can get there.  Question: Can the respective congregations do any special fundraising to finance their bishops’ trip?  Can the orthogeeks of the Anglican blogosphere help raise money if necessary?

[346] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 12-16-2007 at 09:08 AM • top

[comment deleted—off topic]

[347] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-16-2007 at 11:49 AM • top

Sarah Hey,

I am happy to accede to your wishes, as far as taking our plans to go to Lambeth off this thread. [comment edited—off topic] Again, I am happy to accede to your request (and would invite all persons interested in helping to organize an anti-Lambeth to write to me directly at: (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)), [comment edited—off topic]

[348] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-16-2007 at 11:58 AM • top

[comment deleted—off topic]

[349] Posted by Christopher Hathaway on 12-16-2007 at 12:05 PM • top

[comment deleted—off topic]

[350] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-16-2007 at 12:08 PM • top

Christopher Hathaway,  I think we’d make a good team. You know, I was a HUGE fan of your father. And I genuinely LOVED your mother’s feisty spirit and backbone of steel—you seem to have inherited at least SOME of her better (and more prominent) qualities. Please, email me at “blue.narrative.blue@gmail.com” and let[‘s get this thing rolling! smile

—Matthew (“Tarleton’s quarter to the revisionists!)

[351] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-16-2007 at 12:12 PM • top

[comment deleted—off topic]

[352] Posted by bluenarrative on 12-16-2007 at 12:18 PM • top

Bluenarrative, I have already explained what is off-topic:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/8373/#159086

This is a warning.

[353] Posted by Sarah on 12-16-2007 at 12:42 PM • top

There is consensus for the Anglican Communion to take action against the aggressive revisionism of the TEC. Nary a peep would be raised if the TEC were to be reduced to guest status at Lambeth and the nonvoting status in the ACC extended.

There is consensus in the orthodox parts of the Communion, true, on the necessity for discipline if nothing else. But there are large parts of the liberal West, including my own Province, where TEC has considerable, if at the moment also quiet, support. You can see this from the JEC report (Yes, I know large parts of the Communion did not respond) in which Provinces that tolerate Revisionism said their piece quite loudly. + Cantuar is not going to abandon them; they are his constituency.

[354] Posted by Andrewesman on 12-16-2007 at 01:17 PM • top

I am preparing a longer piece on “Warning to Conservatives: Don’t Waltz in to Lambeth 2008.” Subtitle: “Or You’ll Get Rolled.”

For preparatory reading, I have posted my Lambeth Diary from 1998 at Stephen’s Witness. It’s not Scripture, but please read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest.

[355] Posted by Stephen Noll on 12-16-2007 at 01:42 PM • top

Now that we have all enjoyed a moment of escapism and fantasy, (dreaming of one million orthodox taking steam ships to England and storming Lambeth, I picture the 1959 movie, “The Mouse that Roared”), I hope that folks can return to the reality presented by the ABC’s message and the history of the last ten years.

[356] Posted by Going Home on 12-16-2007 at 02:01 PM • top

Hauntingly interesting Dr. Noll+ ... In many ways your diary both justifies those who left in 2000, but also the hope of those who fought on.

“We have seen a work of God. Our work has just begun,” Jim Stanton said to us as the Conference came to a close. This chapter of the history of Anglicanism is coming to a close - almost with disaster, but now, by the grace of God, with hope. What will they say about us in the next century and the new millennium? God only knows, but we are called to be faithful and to work for the coming of his Kingdom. Maranatha! Come, Lord Jesus!

This was interesting to read from a 2007 vantage point. Your final conclusion is timeless!

Thank you for reposting and looking forward to your take on ABC’s gestures and attempts to persuade.
——
My take on the Advent letter, I might read very differently if so much water had not passed under the bridge that leads me to seriously doubt his intent or fortitude to carry through. This is evidence that ++Williams may beginning to understand but not the ‘screaming pain’ Sarah has mention in the past that would be necessary to bring true resolve.

[357] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 12-16-2007 at 02:21 PM • top

+Cantuar may or may not be going to abandon the Celtic provinces, <a >Andrewesman</a>, but as a purely tactical matter, ++Morgan and the rest are not about to leave Canterbury under any conceivable circumstances (even if they could, somehow), while the GS—or at least CAPA—is right on the verge of walking.  Added to the strong evangelical resistance in the CoE itself, I know which way I would bet if it came to the point that ++Rowan had to toss somebody out of the lifeboat…

[358] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 12-16-2007 at 05:17 PM • top

Agree with Craig: “++Morgan and the rest are not about to leave Canterbury under any conceivable circumstances”

Again, the vote was 39 to zip to which the American HoB flipped off (in particular the APO). I am told that the ABC himself is very exasperated at the brash unilateralism of the Americans. Again, if the entire American delegation (or more appropriately the non-CA bishops) were reduced to guest status, nary a peep would come out of Brazil, Ireland, etc. They value their tea with the queen too much. That the ABC did not do this, when he easily has the political capital to do it, shouts that he will never discipline the TEC, rather he is opposing all efforts to do this. The GS/orthodox in America need to act accordingly. No more need to “wait for the ABC.”

[359] Posted by robroy on 12-16-2007 at 06:36 PM • top

shouts that he will never discipline the TEC, rather he is opposing all efforts to do this.

Let us cut to the chase, shall we?  Someone get this to someone who can make certain the ABC answers (Yup, I’m in my nice little dream world—it’s beautiful here!).  Archbishop Williams, please read the following and answer the ensuing question:  Any possible Canterbury-oriented discipline, permutation of discipline, or scintilla of discipline of TEC is off the table.  Is this true?  Please be advised the only allowable answers are YES or NO.

[360] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 12-16-2007 at 06:54 PM • top

Fr Kennedy wrote:

I am arguing that the Canterbury based Communion, however, is a dead branch. And as such, it must be cut off.

  and

I’m not at all suggesting that Abuja or Nairobi or any of the other orthodox sees are dead. Far from it. Which is precisely why they must be the ones who do the cutting.

  and

We’re talking about burying the dead.

With respect, it’s not up to either of us to decide whether the Canterbury based communion is dead. It is the Vinedresser, God the Father, who declares that a branch is dead, and cuts it off.

And, if Abuja and Nairobi and other orthodox sees still live, then Canterbury-based Anglicanism is not dead, because those sees are a part of it.

[361] Posted by kyounge1956 on 12-16-2007 at 08:06 PM • top

kyounge,

On the contrary, the Vinedresser gave us ways to determine whether or not a tree has become rotten. Would you call the invitation and hospitality of heretics and the disinvitation of the orthodox “good fruit” in light of 2 John 9-11 or 1 Cor 5 or Gal 1?

[362] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-16-2007 at 08:17 PM • top

My web browser’s homepage gives a quote of the day. Today’s is…

The perfect bureaucrat everywhere is the man who manages to make no decisions and escape all responsibility.
  - Brooks Atkinson

RW is certainly trying to live up to this. Athanasius Returns, good luck on trying to pin down RW. That would be like Charlie Brown getting a straight answer from Lucy on whether she will pull the football away again. Ain’t going to happen.

[363] Posted by robroy on 12-16-2007 at 08:40 PM • top

No, I do not call them “good fruit”. If you believe it is necessary to withdraw yourself and/or your parish from that bad fruit, I’m not arguing against your decision. But I maintain that the determination that a certain branch of Christianity is dead and must be cut off is above our pay grade.

Maybe I am misreading your comments, but you appear to me not only to have decided to leave the Canterbury-based communion yourself, but also to advocate that others should make no further efforts to reform it. Have I misunderstood you?

[364] Posted by kyounge1956 on 12-16-2007 at 08:45 PM • top

Kyounge,

I think the Canterbury based communion has failed. That is an assessment based on its inability to exhibit the third mark of the
Church. It is certainly above my pay grade to “do” anything about that. But it is not at all above any believer’s pay grade to recognise it.

[365] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-16-2007 at 08:59 PM • top

All,

At 366 comments and counting, I’m going to close this thread Monday morning at 6am central time. There will be a feature article posted at that time which should serve as a good transition thread. Keep an eye out for it.

[366] Posted by Greg Griffith on 12-16-2007 at 09:09 PM • top

The ABCs letter is in fact devestating to orthodox Anglicans.

1.  He accurately states the position of the TEC and says that it will not likely change so we have to accept it.
2.  He will not call a Primates meeting because there is no consensus.  Instead he will select a group of primates to try and work on the problem.  Note that the last group of primates he selected was the Panel of Reference.
3.  He says that bishops serving across boundaries are no legitimate.  He does not say the same about VGR
4.  He does not see doctrinal issues to be an impediment to Lambeth.
5.  He questions the very Christianity of anyone who would avoid Lambeth.  This is a shot across the bow.

Winners:  TEC leadership - no discipline.  No further attempts at coersion or clarification planned.  He doesn’t like what they did, but he will accept it.

Losers:  American “federalist” conservatives - not legitimate.  No hope for an orthodox province to be recognized ever.
  American “communion” conservatives - recognized, but doomed to be subject to every whim of TEC.
  VGR and other future homosexual bishops - not to be invited to Lambeth until a new consensus is reached.
  Possibly other liberal bishops who will self remove themselves from some future covenant that will have no effect on TEC only invitations to participate fully at Lambeth.
  Primates Council:  to be replaces by “selected primates” for the foreseeable future.
  Global South Primates:  To be excommunicated for not attending Lambeth.

This is hard ball with the Global South to keep them in communion with TEC.  Once they cross the threshold to go to Lambeth, they will not have the spiritual authority to draw that line in the sand again.  By attending, they defacto accept the idea that heresy is better than schism and establish a precedence of communion with heretics that will become the unanimously accepted “Anglican Way.”

This changes the whole landscape, because it makes tolerance of TEC and attendance at Lambeth the only central doctrines of Anglicanism. 

It also makes the ABC - not the Primates Council - the only power in the Anglican Communion that can excommunicate.

[367] Posted by BillK on 12-16-2007 at 09:22 PM • top

Bluenarrative, you are not going to Lambeth.
You are not going to Lambeth because, unless I am very much mistaken, 1) you are not a bishop, and 2) you do not have an invitation. If you attempt to go, the bouncers will summarily eject you. The best you will be able to do is stand in the street and wave a placard.

With this in mind, we can get to more practical matters. There are three (3) and three only possible scenarios:
1) The GS bishops en masse go to Lambeth, seize the mojority position and the agenda, and make as much change in the direction of the communion as they can.
2) Some GS bishops go to Lambeth, and some stay away.
3) The GS bishops en masse stay away from Lambeth, and set up alternate structures, perhaps even an anti-Lambeth.

According to bluenarrative, Option 1 is the best.
According to Matt Kennedy, Option 3 is the best.
According to all that I can see, Option 2 is the most likely.

Option 2 is perhaps the worst possible outcome. It isolates the boldest orthodox bishops, and gives the majority floor to the revisionists.
As it stands now, option 2 is the most likely outcome.

If this is the case, what can we do now, as independant individuals and as noisesome bloggers, to ensure that option 2 does not happen? As noisesome bloggers, we are just as divided as the GS primates on this question, perhaps more so. Time is ticking. Decisions will be made soon. ACI will clearly counsel the bishops to go, go, go. Who will counsel them to stay away?

I do not know if e.g., David Anderson has weighed in on this. I suspect that he and the other extra-territorial bishops will not be invited. If we are in favor of options 1 or 3 our choices are
1) campaign to get the ABC to invite the extra-territorial bishops, or
3) campaign to get the GS bishops to support the extra-territorial bishops by refusing to attend without them.

Think carefully. Which of these tactics is more likely to succeed?

...still in the Briar Patch,

[368] Posted by Br_er Rabbit on 12-16-2007 at 09:49 PM • top

To paraphrase an old 1960s’ anti-war slogan-“What if they had a Lambeth, and nobody showed up?” Consider this: NO orthodox Bishops show up. The ABC is then left to spend however many days with nothing but various revisionist loonies and moonbats. This will be like a foretaste of hell. This MAY have the effect of waking Rowan Williams out of his slumber. “My GOD”, he might think to himself. “Am I REALLY ready to hand the Communion over to the likes of THIS?? God forgive me-what was I thinking??” In any case, the absence of the faithful will make quite a statement. The ABSENCE of blacks from Montgomery’s buses for a year had an enormous impact on civil rights in the south. Another case in point: Sometime around 1990 (I don’t remember the exact year), the Klan planned a march and rally in Pulaski, TN (its birthplace). The march was slated to proceed through downtown and end at the courthouse, where a bronze plaque somberly marked the building as the place where the Klan was more or less born. The townspeople and their elected officials didn’t like it one bit, but they could find no constitutionally valid way of stopping the march. So, they choose the next best path: On the day of the march and rally, every business along the parade route shut down, and every person in town stayed home. Every business shuttered its windows, and every private home drew their curtains closed. At the courthouse, the bronze plaque was removed from the wall, turned around backward, and reattached with the blank backside facing outward. The Klan marched along deathly silent empty streets, in front of closed windows, curtains drawn. So-getting back to my first point-maybe ABC Rowan should get a REAL good taste of what TEC really wants-an Anglican Church sans those pesky Christians. No salt, no light, no presence of the Holy Spirit. It just might scare him straight.

[369] Posted by Bob K. on 12-16-2007 at 10:50 PM • top

Fr. Kennedy wrote:

I think the Canterbury based communion has failed. That is an assessment based on its inability to exhibit the third mark of the Church. It is certainly above my pay grade to “do” anything about that. But it is not at all above any believer’s pay grade to recognise it.

IMO it is not yet demonstrated that the Anglican Communion is unable to exhibit the 3rd mark, that of discipline. It has not done so yet, but it is not impossible that it will do so. Firstly, as you yourself wrote, portions of the Communion—Abuja, Nairobi and other orthdox provinces—are still living. If the bishops of these live portions go to Lambeth, isn’t there the possibility that TEC will be disciplined at that time, and an additional possibility that an orthodox, effective Anglican Covenant will be produced? I also see in this letter some movement toward disciplining TEC on the part of the ABC. He acknowledges in the letter there is no concensus about the HoB’s New Orleans Statement; that TEC’s actions are inconsistent with the accepted teaching of the Communion, Lambeth 1.10; that the remainder of the Communion, including those currently within TEC who do not agree with the prevailing TEC view, must be provided with a way to distance itself from TEC’s new interpretation, which it does not receive; that there is a gap between TEC’s understanding of the ministry of bishops and that of the rest of the communion; and also, I think for the first time, that TEC is not going to change its tune. He also interestingly refers (in the paragraph about facilitated converstations) to “the future pattern of liason between TEC and other parts of the Communion”. I have to agree with the person who commented recently, I don’t recall on which thread, that a province that is in full communion doesn’t need a liason.

These may be slight signs. Maybe it is more likely than not that the Communion will still fail to discipline TEC, but such failure is not inevitable.

Allow me to draw a parallel from my family. Two years ago, my mother was taken to the emergency room with chest pains, and the next day underwent emergency bypass surgery. She very nearly died in the OR, came out of surgery in “extremely grave” condition and was in intensive care for over a month, during which we didn’t know whether she would survive or not. But it would have been premature to say that she was already dead,  and IMO it is also premature to say that the Anglican Communion has failed (past tense), or that it is already dead and must be cut off. I am happy to say that my mother has made a full recovery and is still alive today, and I hope to be able to say the same of the Anglican Communion in the not-too-distant future.

[370] Posted by kyounge1956 on 12-17-2007 at 01:08 AM • top

JustOneVoice wrote (here)

Many have said TEC will or will not sign/agree to the Covenant.  What if TEC is not asked?  Since ABC regonizes the Bishop as the authority (letter to Biship Howe) and that TEC is not a “monochrome body” (Advent Letter).  I think the Covenent is to be signed by individual Bishops, not the TEC as a whole.  Those who sign will be recognized, those who don’t won’t.

I don’t know whether TEC would sign the covenant. IMO, TEC as a province should not be given the opportunity to sign: from the statements of various bishops after GC 2005 and/or the New Orleans HoB meeting, at least some of them do not consider themselves to be bound by the promises of the HoB or GC, so a signature would be no guarantee that TEC as a whole would compy with Lambeth 1.10 or other accepted Communion teachings it might disagree with in the future. Allowing the signatures of individual bishops would enable their dioceses to be in undisputed full Communion with the rest of the A.C. I am not certain, but it might also undercut TEC property lawsuits and/or abandonment of communion charges against clergy. And I think if General Convention passed any canonical change forbidding bishops from signing the Anglican Covenant also, it would be severing itself from the Communion—like Henry VIII forbidding appeals to Rome?

[371] Posted by kyounge1956 on 12-17-2007 at 02:01 AM • top

BobK wrote:

To paraphrase an old 1960s’ anti-war slogan-“What if they had a Lambeth, and nobody showed up?” Consider this: NO orthodox Bishops show up. The ABC is then left to spend however many days with nothing but various revisionist loonies and moonbats. This will be like a foretaste of hell. This MAY have the effect of waking Rowan Williams out of his slumber. “My GOD”, he might think to himself. “Am I REALLY ready to hand the Communion over to the likes of THIS?? God forgive me-what was I thinking??” In any case, the absence of the faithful will make quite a statement. The ABSENCE of blacks from Montgomery’s buses for a year had an enormous impact on civil rights in the south.

Absence of the faithful bishops from the Lambeth Conference would, I think, hand the Communion to the revisionists on a platter. IMO the statement the orthodox would be making by such a boycott is, “We give up. Have it your way.” I wasn’t there, but I believe the reason the absence of blacks made a difference in Montgomery was that most of the transit system’s revenues came out of the pockets of the black citizens of that city, so removal of blacks meant removal of money. Would absence of the orthodox bishops decrease the Communion’s revenues to a great extent? If not, IMO it would be unlikely to have a similar impact.

So-getting back to my first point-maybe ABC Rowan should get a REAL good taste of what TEC really wants-an Anglican Church sans those pesky Christians. No salt, no light, no presence of the Holy Spirit. It just might scare him straight.

The idea that the ABC might be “scared straight” by a good stiff dose of unadulterated TEC is, I admit, an attractive one. Recalling the reaction of one UK commenter about the “secret eucharist” (he did not expect duplicity from C of E bishops), it seems possible to me that the ABC is still not completely convinced that things in TEC are as bad as he’s been told. An opportunity to deal with them mano a mano might extinguish his last doubts, but I would rather let that encounter occur during the “facilitated conversations”, if these are supposed to occur before Lambeth. They might just put the ABC in a suitable frame of mind for some decisive response to TEC during the conference. Here’s hoping, anyway.

[372] Posted by kyounge1956 on 12-17-2007 at 02:25 AM • top

kyounge1956; OK. You got me on the Montgomery bus boycott. Nevertheless, Br_er Rabbit correctly makes the point: “There are three (3) and three only possible scenarios:
1) The GS bishops en masse go to Lambeth, seize the majority position and the agenda, and make as much change in the direction of the communion as they can.
2) Some GS bishops go to Lambeth, and some stay away.
3) The GS bishops en masse stay away from Lambeth, and set up alternate structures, perhaps even an anti-Lambeth.
According to bluenarrative, Option 1 is the best.
According to Matt Kennedy, Option 3 is the best.
According to all that I can see, Option 2 is the most likely.
Option 2 is perhaps the worst possible outcome. It isolates the boldest orthodox bishops, and gives the majority floor to the revisionists. As it stands now, option 2 is the most likely outcome”.
If I’m to be honest, yes, Option 1 is by a slight margin, better, ONLY IF the Bishops go with a downright militant mindset, with guns drawn, ‘cause there wont be another Lambeth for awhile. Collegiality be d———and full speed ahead, take no prisoners. Once the revisionists are soundly thrashed, THEN they can all sit and have tea and crumpets together (though if the usurpers ARE put in their place, they’ll probably kick and scream for awhile, then leave in a huff, graceless bunch that they are). Can they unite, en masse, as they need to with this great sense of mission? I’d love to answer yes, but I don’t know. If they cant, then Option 3 is FAR better than Option 2. It would still make quite the statement, and I think the “shock treatment” theory still has merit. At least with Option 3,  ABC Rowan cant play this lets all sit around the table and talk about this and form another committee to look at that an’ “cant we all just get along” nonsense. As I said in another post, I think he fancies himself the wise old grandfather with two unreasonable kids who wont share their toys, and draws a certain sense of nobility from that image. If the salt and light isn’t there, His Grace comes-squarely-face to face with the devil, and then there’s no playing such games. He’s surrounded by the purveyors of falsehood and wickedness which has fastened its grip on the church of Jesus Christ. He is stuck in a crucible with evil. If he cant see what hes dealing with after a week or so of this, then he has proven conclusively that he is 1) spiritually blind, or 2), if he is either seduced or cowed by this ignoble assembly, then he has proven himself an utterly unworthy Christian leader. Either way, the Orthodox will have no further need of proof about what this ABC is truly made of, and exactly where he stands. They will then know that they must move forward without him.

[373] Posted by Bob K. on 12-17-2007 at 03:23 AM • top

“At least with Option 3 [complete absence of Global South at Lambeth], ABC Rowan cant play this lets all sit around the table and talk about this and form another committee to look at that an’ ‘cant we all just get along’ nonsense.”

WHY couldn’t they just go ahead without us?  That’s what I assume they would do.  For the life of me, I can’t see any excuse for the orthodox just abandoning the Lambeth Conference (and Anglican Communion) before we try all we can do.  What possible practical result could we expect?  It might be fun to stay away, but how would it benefit us in the long run?  It would certainly not demote TEC if it attends and “our side” does not.

[374] Posted by Paula on 12-17-2007 at 03:46 AM • top

The Church spoke in 1998 and where are we? The TEC ignores it and the ABC abets this defiance (or “nonconciliar behaviour”). So the orthodox speak again in 2008 and…they are ignored again.

[375] Posted by robroy on 12-17-2007 at 04:08 AM • top

Paula writes: “WHY couldn’t they just go ahead without us?  That’s what I assume they would do.” Paula, I get the feeling that you didnt read the rest of my post. They WOULD go ahead with it. And if ABC Rowan simply agrees with what they have to say, them we know where he stands. Please, re-read my post in its entirety; for me to reply to what you just wrote, I would have to re-post the whole thing again. -Bob

[376] Posted by Bob K. on 12-17-2007 at 04:11 AM • top

BobK,

What do you think could be accomplished if all attend and they do what you suggest…what would be the effect if, say, a blazing hot orthodox conference were to be had? Would that in any way effect TEC’s real standing in the communion if Canterbury remains the only one who determines who is in communion with his see and he has (already) made that determination before the conference even starts? What can be accomplished beyond sound and fury that signifies nothing?

[377] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 12-17-2007 at 05:33 AM • top

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