+Bruno to Hindus in Inter-faith Service: Sorry for Trying to Convert You

Since all religions are of equal value, why should we ever bother attending any church in the Diocese of Los Angeles? Why shouldn’t I just start the Church of Me and worship by sleeping in on Sundays? It would be a great deal more convenient. Maybe Homer Simpson got it right after all…..

I get breezy here

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My Christian friends in India, converted by English missionaries, would take great offense at this.  They live their lives like the first-century disciples, servants of Christ in a land where multiple idols are worshipped, along with fertility symbols which may have looked familiar to Baal worshippers in Old Testament times.  I have Hindu friends whom I deeply respect, but to say that “all religions are true,” as they do, is simply false.  No souls are saved by offerings to idols.

I can think of no worse discrimination than to systematically deny a the Gospel to a given group of people.  Then again, Bruno’s religion can hardly qualify as Christianity so maybe it is best that he not proselytize.  We should keep in prayer our brothers and sisters in Christ who are being physically harrassed by Hindu extremists as they share the Gospel in India.

“Then again, Bruno’s religion can hardly qualify as Christianity so maybe it is best that he not proselytize. ”

And just what would Bruno say if we were to proselytize?  Does he have a clue what a Christian believes?  It’s far better that he’s taken himself out of the evangelism picture.

Meant to write:  And just what would Bruno say if he were to proselytize?

Of course, he’s apparently not going to be happy if we proselytize.

I am really , really thankful and happy to say that God, ahead of any plans of mine (wish I could claim credit) has poured out a sermon series here on evangelism (it’s why the church exists!).
http://northernplainsanglicans.blogspot.com/2008/01/so-we-tell-them.html
Also, we had a workshop for key lay leaders yesterday, on prayerful, relational evangelism.  It was dynamite (needless to say the teacher was not an Episcopalian…but also not an Anglican). 
We had two confirming testimonies today from folks who’ve come to/are bringing another to Christ…neither of them knew about the workshop or the sermon series.  Just God being God…awesome and wonderful.  Alleluia (gotta get those in before Lent).

Dhimmi, who is something of an apostate, realizes that modern theology (e.g., The Jesus Seminar) does not take the Great Commission seriously.  But he has long labored under the assumption that Episcopal bishops were supposed to take the Great Commission very seriously indeed.  Didn’t we just have a Decade of Evangelism?

Didn’t we just have a Decade of Evangelism?

Yeah… so how’s that working out for us?

I was privileged to witness the conversion of a Hindu man, a friend of mine, during an Alpha course.  He has the most beautiful testimony about how the gods he had been taught to worship were dead as he was dead, until, through faith in Jesus Christ he became truly alive.  This man radiates the joy of one who knows he has been redeemed and saved, and he loves to tell his story of faith. 
Thanks be to God for those who offered him the saving love of Jesus and for miracle of the Holy Spirit entering his heart and transforming his life in coming to truly know Christ. 
The fact that Bishop Bruno feels that this warrants an apology would be an absurdity to my friend, just as it is to anyone who has experienced the transforming love and grace of Jesus Christ.

How sad. What can this bishop be thinking? I can understand an apology for any abuse or wrong attitude that may have been involved in past efforts at evangelical outreach, or for discrimination.

But, how can Christian leaders apologize and pledge not to share the gospel, or pretend we don’t care if people come to faith in Christ, and into the church?

I’m so glad he is no relative of mine,

Three comments about the apology for conversion of Hindus. 1)The bishop linked conversion with domination.  Such a link has a basis in history, but it was not part of Jesus’ great commission.  Conversion and domination are not the same.  2) Hindus themselves engage in proselytizing; I am thinking of an American branch, Hare Krishna, which considers itself Hindu and converted many idealistic young people a few decades ago.  At that time, converts were prevented from contacting their families until the religious leaders felt the conversion was complete.  That, to me, is a form of domination and was wrong.  But the original presentation of the beliefs was not.
3) The author of the constitution of India was born a Hindu of the untouchable caste, a “delit.”  Although the constitution makes the use of the caste system illegal in many situations, the caste system is still a source of domination and misery.  The constitution’s author converted to a branch of Buddhism which seeks converts and has done so for decades on the grounds that parts of the Hindu sacred scripture reinforce belief in the caste system in India—so the only way to really get rid of that system is to negate the hold of those parts of scripture on many people through conversion to Buddhism.  My point:  people with strong ideals and beliefs talk about them and spread them.  The problem comes if that spread is accompanied by violence, forced separation from families, loss of property or the right to vote, etc.  (“domination”).

Hindus themselves engage in proselytizing; I am thinking of an American branch, Hare Krishna, which considers itself Hindu and converted many idealistic young people a few decades ago.

You’ll notice that a band from this very sect provided worship music at the service.

Ironic, no?

“This was a once-in-a-lifetime experience in worship service.”
Would that it were even rarer than that.

So +J.J. would be happy to go back to the days when widows were burned to death on their husband’s funeral pyre?  He would like to see cows sacred and people dispensable?  Wouldn’t it be great if the Hindu “extremists” would stop beating up on Christians, burning churches, and killing priests and nuns?  I suppose such attacks are less of an attempt at dominance than proselytizing is!

The excerpt quoted here refers to this service as an “Indian Rite <u>Mass</u>.” So I went to the original article to see if it included offering the Holy Communion to Hindus?

It did.

All were invited to Holy Communion, after the Episcopal celebrant elevated a tray of consecrated Indian bread, and deacons raised wine-filled chalices.

In respect to Hindu tradition, a tray of flowers was also presented. Christians and Hindus lined up for communion, but since Orthodox Hindus shun alcohol, they consumed only the bread.

There are all kinds of things one could do to promote better relations with Hindus.  Adulterating Christian worship with idolatry isn’t one of them.  Lord have mercy!

Where’s Dorsey Henderson on this one?
Where’s the TITLE IV Committee when you need them?
WHERE’s Bishop ‘Fraid?
Where’s the PBess?
CANON VIOLATION! CANON VIOLATION! CANON VIOLATION!
I’d call for Barney except I’d get the PURPLE DINOSAUR…...Schoribeerisaurus regina lawsuitius maximi

For your further consideration, Bishop Bruno et alia inter pares q.v., http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1524584
which is hard science, so it must be true.

ToAlltheWorld:

Just when you think you’ve seen it all…

“The modern religious man must expand his understanding and love of religions and their practices.”

I didn’t think we were supposed to teach people to be religious…I thought we were supposed to make disciples…Did I miss something?
Did Jesus commission us to spread a religion…or to make religious people of all nations?

Yours in Christ,
jacob

The Rev. Karen MacQueen, an associate priest at St. Paul’s Episcopal Church in Pomona, who was the celebrant, carried the icon, a large painted image, during the procession. She placed it before the altar.
Then, as she and the others knelt before the icon, a second Hindu band, Adoration Chant Band, sang a hymn while the icon was anointed with sandalwood paste by the Episcopal celebrant. A flowered garland was placed on it and a lamp was lighted, a sign of Christ, the light in the darkness.
Both Hindu and Christian texts were read.
In her homily, “A Vision for Inter-Religious Dialogue,” MacQueen said in both Hinduism and Christianity devotees believe that “the Divine Presence” illuminates the whole world.
MacQueen, who spent two years studying Hinduism in India, said both faiths revere “great figures who embody the divine light, who teach the divine truth.”

There was no divine light there.  It must have been swamp gas.

Schoribeerisaurus regina lawsuitius maximi

One free pass to the Laffin’ Place for dwstroudmd.
The Rabbit

So, are we to understand that practicing Vedanta Hindus and Hindu Hare Krishnas were offered, took and ate the communion bread at this service?
Also, I am wondering about the image on the icon that was treated as an object of worship.
I don’t understand why the Rev Dr Ann Holmes in Seattle was put on a year of “probation” for saying she could be both Muslim and Christian but the activities of these priests (and bishop) are fine.

This is truly unbelievable. Only in your wildest imagination could this be possible - but it happened.  Piedmont: they were inhaling something stronger than swamp gas.

Any mention of the recent violence against Christians in India?
This for example:

Violence against Christians in the eastern India state of Orissa is the worst ever to occur, claims a report from the All India Christian Council (AICC). AICC sent four of their leaders to the area on a fact-finding mission and says more than 95 churches were either vandalized or destroyed. 730 homes belonging to Christians were burned down.

Hindu radicals began the violence around Christmas and attacked many villages. Ministry leaders believe some Christians have been killed. The attacks and threats have forced many Christians into the forests with only the clothes on their backs.

More here: Mission News

Re: a decade of evangelism, GG asks:

Yeah… so how’s that working out for us?

Just swell.  Kate Schori’s successor is already working up a self-debasing apology for it.

Whenever something like this pops up….and in the Episcopal Church it always does, and with greater frequency, I think about the Priest who got in trouble for saying she was a Muslim and a Christian.

What must she think about this? Why in the world was she thrown under the bus?  At least Islam is a monotheistic religion, and by my estimation at least closer to Christianity than Hinduism.  Why her?  What a strange religion this Episcopalianism is!

DoW

Oops…I meant “self-abasing”

When talking about the writer of the constitution of India, B.R. Ambedkar, a member of the untouchable caste who converted to
Buddhism at least partly because parts of Hindu scripture
reinforce—and continue to reinforce—the caste system in the eyes of many, I misspelled the other way of talking about his caste.  It’s “dalit.”

I checked out the St John’s Cathedral website and the December Newsletter. On page 10 it lists this as an upcoming event and says:

Indian Rite Mass
January 19, 2 p.m.
For the past two years the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles has been in dialogue with two Los Angeles Hindu groups, the Hindu Vedanta Society and Krishna Consciousness. This rite, an outgrowth of our dialogue, attempts to express an understanding of worship that is more Indian than traditional Christian forms. Bishop J. Jon Bruno has fully approved the liturgy, and our bishops will attend.

So, when Bishop Bruno approved the liturgy, did he approve:
the icon worship?
the offering of the Eucharist to practicing Hindus?

So +J.J. would be happy to go back to the days when widows were burned to death on their husband’s funeral pyre?  He would like to see cows sacred and people dispensable?

Just in case +J.J. doesn’t read the papers or watch TV, these days still exist in India.  We go on mission there every year and I can assure him that the caste system is strong as ever, sati (the widows being burned to death on their husband’s funeral pyre) still occurs in some of the villages, and that in many places in India Christians pay for their faith with their lives.  Then again, +J.J. would be safe since he doesn’t seem to posess a faith that is worth dying for.

The fact that Bishop Bruno feels that this warrants an apology would be an absurdity to my friend, just as it is to anyone who has experienced the transforming love and grace of Jesus Christ.

bp bruno is alive to sin and dead to Christ.
Intercessor

I’m so used to seeing these outrages that I completely passed over this story until this morning- where was the “more fresh Hell” tag Greg?  As an Episcopalian living in a diocese where my bishop has been informed that he has “abandoned the communion” and narrowly escaped inhibition I am wondering which bishop is really guilty of “an
open renunciation of the Doctrine, Discipline, or Worship of this
Church”.  Since when is it OK to have joint worship services with Hindus?  Since when is concelebration of the Eucharist with non-Christians acceptable?  Is the sort of syncretistic liturgical innovation that went on here koser?  To allow Hindus to take Communion is indisputably in violation of TEC canons.  Bruno should be charged with abandoment of communion immediately.  I’m embarrassed to be an Episcpalian this morning…

THIS MORNING?!?!?!?!?

#32,

Some canons are more equal than others. Canon I.7.4 is apparently the most equal of them all. Canon I.17.6 is pretty much optional these days.

Which puts our Lord’s words about worshipping God and Mammon in perspective.

I get breezy here

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[url=“http://compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=5185”]
Virulent anti-Chrisitan activity in India [/url] in 2007 was at an all time peak.  For Bruno to apologize for Christian evangelism is an outrage.  Was there any apology from his Hindu friends?

As others have noted, if the PB wants to find a ready made case of someone to inhibit and depose, Bruno would be perfect.

This just in…

“From: J. Jon Bruno, Bishop of LA
To: Paul of Tarsus
Re: Conversion of non-Christians
Dear Paul—Just want you to know that your license to practice ministry in the diocese of Los Angeles has been suspended pending investigation of your efforts to convert so-called “pagans”. In this diocese, we don’t do such things. Not sure where you got this idea of Jesus as way, truth and life, but please be aware that in Los Angeles we do it differently. Please cease and desist all preaching and celebrating until you hear from my office.
Yours in “Christ, Vishnu, etc.”
+JJB”

from the LA Times article:

All were invited to Holy Communion, after the Episcopal celebrant elevated a tray of consecrated Indian bread, and deacons raised wine-filled chalices.

In respect to Hindu tradition, a tray of flowers was also presented. Christians and Hindus lined up for communion, but since Orthodox Hindus shun alcohol, they consumed only the bread.

During the service, the two faiths also blended practices during the handling of an icon of Jesus.

The Rev. Karen MacQueen, an associate priest at St. Paul’s Episcopal Church in Pomona, who was the celebrant, carried the icon, a large painted image, during the procession. She placed it before the altar.

Then, as she and the others knelt before the icon,

Will the Archbishop of Canterbury PLEASE explain to me HOW in the name of all that is Holy, the man who came up with this is considered a bishop in good standing in a Christian church?  I have no problem with lessening interfaith tensions.  But this is, clear and simple, a violation of Catholic canons going back 2000 years, including several of TEC’s own.  He has indeed abandoned the Communion of this church, as well as the Communion of The Church.

Is there a way for a layman to declare himself ex-communicated?  Cause I am definitely not in communion with bishop Bruno.

David,
Thanks, I need to break the tension (as is obvious in my post right after yours).  One does wonder what St. Paul might have to say in response to bp. Bruno.  Or what Peter will say.

Peter and Paul built the Church on a Rock.  TEC is building one on a slippery slope, ignoring the mudslide warnings in the LA area.

Once again, I find myself confused.  Why is Bruno apologizing? 

- Is he apologizing for the work of -real- Christians?  If so, then he is apologizing for someone else. 

- Or, is he apologizing that once upon a time, he tried to “convert” members of one pagan pre-Christian ‘religion’ into a pagan post-Christian ‘religion’? 

Either way, I fail to see the warrant for Bruno’s apology.

Does Bruno really know the Guy I (and hundreds of millions) know? The One who offers forgiveness of sins and release from crushing guilt? The One who can and does heal and transform lives, mine included, and offers real Life that spans far beyond our mortal years on this earth, both in quality and quantity?

If he does know the same Guy I know, then why would he not want to offer those who do not know Him the chance to get to know this life-changing, transformative Person?

This just doesn’t make sense—-unless Bruno doesn’t know the Guy I know.

re#24 and violence against Christians: +Bruno might as well have invited an Imam (or perhaps the Islamepiscopalian priest) so he could also apologize to Muslims, from which quarter violence still is coming. A leader in my communion was killed earlier this month for preaching the Gospel.

the rabbit,

For the record, the LA Times has now printed a correction:

Hindu-Episcopal service: An article in Sunday’s California section about a joint religious service involving Hindus and Episcopalians said that all those attending the service at St. John’s Cathedral in Los Angeles were invited to Holy Communion. Although attendees walked toward the Communion table, only Christians were encouraged to partake of Communion. Out of respect for Hindu beliefs, the Hindus were invited to take a flower. Also, the article described Hindus consuming bread during Communion, but some of those worshipers were Christians wearing traditional Indian dress.

Good to know about the correction, which does make some difference (the apology for conversion still seems a great error).  I imagine some Hindus did take Communion, although flowers were offered and it sounds as though it was not officially offered to Hindus, and most did not partake.— A neighbor of ours in Pittsburgh 23 years ago was an elderly Hindu gentleman who was a “follower of the Guru Nanak”, a high caste Punjabi Hindu (that area is now Pakistan, and I don’t think Hindus are tolerated) who renounced the symbol of his caste and taught friendship, but not assimilation, with Muslims—this was centuries before the partition of India and Pakistan.  Some of his followers became Sikhs, but others—like my neighbor—did not.  When my neighbor found that we had a prayer group which met regularly in our house, he asked to join us. (He and his wife had come to the US to join their son’s family).  He did not try to convert us to Hinduism, but he did explain that it referred to a group of religions which began in the Indus (hence “Hindu”) River valley.  One afternoon the then assistant priest at our parish, who was “liberal,” joined the prayer group and offered communion to all of us for which, I think, he was later criticized.  (No “liberal” priests in that parish now). Our Hindu neighbor’s wife only spoke the language in which the Adi Granth, the sacred scripture associated with the Guru Nanak, was written.  I was invited to their home to see it; it was wrapped in peach colored silk and put in a place of honor.  I did try to share Christian scripture with her, but after hours on the phone failed to find our scripture in that language.  I imagine there is a translation in that language now.

Does anyone have access to the Bishop’s actual statement? I tried to find it on the diocesan website but it didn’t seem to be there.

As a priest, I was taught that it is very insensitive to conduct Eucharist service when I am aware there will be many none communicants (esp. none Christians) present. To even try to obtain Episcopal permission for Holy Eucharist in an ecumenical service involving none Christians is unthinkable but then questions remain as to if all who claim to be Christian leaders are really followers of Christ.