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+Williams: Sharia law in UK is ‘unavoidable’ [Updated]

Thursday, February 7, 2008 • 10:49 am


Wonderful:

The Archbishop of Canterbury says the adoption of certain aspects of Sharia law in the UK “seems unavoidable”.

Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4’s World at One that the UK has to “face up to the fact” that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

Dr Williams argues that adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion.

For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

He says Muslims should not have to choose between “the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty”.

Actually, Archbishop, adoption of sharia law seems “unavoidable” only to people with no backbone and scant courage, so while it’s certainly understandable why you would feel this way, it ain’t necessarily so for everybody else.

We keep getting told how intelligent and highly-educated Rowan Williams is. So why doesn’t he ever stop, before making these moronic utterances, and ask himself the obvious questions, such as: “If we do this for Muslims, will we have to do this for, say, Tongan immigrants? Hindus? African bushmen?” How about: “What does this mean for the notion of equal protection under the law?” Or: “What happens when sharia law contradicts British law?” And: “What happens when Muslims decide that other Britons’ not being subject to sharia law offends them to their very core, such that the only acceptable solution is to scrap British law entirely?”

I’ve said this before about the Archdhimmi, and I have a feeling I’ll be saying it a lot more in the future: The sooner this man exits the stage, stops speaking to the press, and starts puttering around in his garden, the better.

UPDATES:

LGF, as expected, is having a field day with this one.

Ruth asks if the Archbishop has gone bonkers.

Damian Thompson says Rowan should be sacked.

H/T: James Manley, Pageantmaster


84 Comments • Print-friendlyPrint-friendly w/commentsShare on Facebook
Comments:

One wonders what Anglican bishops in predominately Islamic societies will thing of ++Rowan’s proposal.

[1] Posted by illinisouth on 02-07-2008 at 11:07 AM • top

OLD: Archbishop of Canterbury
NEW: Archbutthead of Canterbury

the snarkster

[2] Posted by the snarkster on 02-07-2008 at 11:43 AM • top

A few examples of sharia in England (tongue-in cheek) were Rowan’s predictions to be allowed :

Now what would have happened if the allied troops who were in Saudi Arabia had put up Christmas trees after they had forbidden to and therefore Christmas trees placed in sharia ruled areas.

Rowan were to travel to a sharia operated area to witness to Muslims there.

Lambeth was held in a Muslim enclave.

Al-Qaeda groups allowed to build training camps in Muslim area.

Try opening a Christian church in Waziristan let alone in a muslim enclave!

Allow Voodoo adherents perform animal sacrifices in England!

Agree (and allow) that Muslim immigrants in the UK to kill their children if they consort with or marry non Muslims.  (and then let the father and brother out of prison for doing precisely that!

Forbid Muslims to convert to Christianity.

Allow British muslims to put a fatwa (sp.) on any non Muslim in the UK who writes or says anything critical of Islam or Mohammad.

Take alcohol into muslim areas of Britain or open an off-license there (or pub).

Etc, etc

[3] Posted by Bill C on 02-07-2008 at 11:46 AM • top

In the UK I think it’s becoming, “It doesn’t matter who the Christians are subserviant to - the Secularists or the Muslims.  As long as they get to know their place!  We’ll do the Muslims after the Christians are properly cowed.”

The Kristallnacht is approaching.

[4] Posted by jedinovice on 02-07-2008 at 11:46 AM • top

The continued, voluntary suppression of British identity, by the Brits, in favour of their aggressive Islamic new-comers, is a stunner.

That +Rowan too, has fallen into such an ambivilent understanding of his British/Welsh culture, is truly just too sad.  Not surprising, but sad nevertheless.

It is not surprising, as +Rowan seems to be personally too weak to hold steady to his Anglican Christianity, allowing as he is, the AC to drift into chaos and dis-union, for want of strong leadership from him.  Why then, should we expect him to hold the Christian line against aggressive islamic evangelism changing the face of Britain?

[5] Posted by Scotsreb on 02-07-2008 at 11:57 AM • top

...uh, Rowan, are you aware that Sharia law requires the execution, whipping, jailing, or fining of homosexuals (depending on which Islamic nation)? What would you do if one of your homosexual priests, caught in a tryst with a Muslim man, were to appeal to you for help before the imposition of sentence?

[6] Posted by Anglicat on 02-07-2008 at 12:03 PM • top

The Brits have a wonderful expression that about perfectly expresses my shock about this:  “gobsmacked”  (Bascially, utterly speechless, jaw hitting the floor, etc.) 

This is Just. Simply. Idiotic.
It’s becoming increasingly tempting to cheer on the destruction of the Anglican Communion and schism when the ABC has a platform to make idiot statements like this.  Come live here in the Muslim country where I work, +Rowan.  It might give you some idea of what Shari’a really looks like. 

Bah humbug.  I think I really AM going to give up the Anglican blogs for Lent.  I was toying with the idea a few days ago, but with stuff like this, it is looking increasingly attractive.  If I suddenly go AWOL y’all will know why…

[7] Posted by Karen B. on 02-07-2008 at 12:04 PM • top

The full transcript of the interview is on the Archbishop’s site. As usual, its not as bad as the report. But it is still unashamedly bad.

[8] Posted by Boring Bloke on 02-07-2008 at 12:14 PM • top

An example of what to look forward to in jolly ol’ England:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329151,00.html

[9] Posted by larswife on 02-07-2008 at 12:15 PM • top

I should also mention that this is not going over well on the BBC forums either - or at least it wasn’t when I checked.

[10] Posted by Boring Bloke on 02-07-2008 at 12:17 PM • top

That’s it.  I officially give up on the ABC.

Wolverine

[11] Posted by Wolverine on 02-07-2008 at 12:18 PM • top

<blockquote>He says Muslims should

[12] Posted by Katherine on 02-07-2008 at 12:21 PM • top

I think the Middle East internet problems are garbling my posts.  I’ll try again:  Muslims who have emigrated to the UK absolutely should have to obey UK law.  The idea that Muslim women would be able to “opt out” of sharia family courts is incredibly naive.  Family and community pressure would be intense, and both financial threats and physical violence could be used.

[13] Posted by Katherine on 02-07-2008 at 12:25 PM • top

I would suggest that Rowan consult with the Ecumenical Patriarch about this.

[14] Posted by Nikolaus on 02-07-2008 at 12:27 PM • top

Here’s a nice sharia case I heard about just the other day, from friends who know the woman.  This young woman, a Coptic Christian in Egypt, fell in love with a dashing Muslim army officer.  Her family wailed and cried, but she insisted on marrying him.  Ten months later, he died.  She was pregnant.  When the baby was born, her husband’s family came to demand that she turn over the child to them.  Sharia law provides that the child of a Muslim father is Muslim, and a non-Muslim mother has no right to keep the child.

[15] Posted by Katherine on 02-07-2008 at 12:30 PM • top

British citizens may not be sleeping in the pews anymore, but many of them are obviously “sleeping” through what might be considered the “takeover” of their customs/way of life by muslim customs and way of life such as the very serious sharia law.
If the ABC’s remarks cause some people to “wake up” and take action concerning what’s going on in their neighborhoods and schools then this is great.
However, comparing sharia law to any other customs in Judeo-Christian history or current events is really naive.

[16] Posted by Margaret on 02-07-2008 at 12:34 PM • top

Wow ... I think he may have seriously lost it this time ... Maybe ++Williams might what to give ++Akinola a call to find out how Sharia law is working out for them in northern Nigeria. How it has impacted some other civil legislation and effected non-Muslims.

[17] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 02-07-2008 at 12:54 PM • top

Where is Henry II when you need him?
“Will no one rid me of this meddlesome Priest?”

[18] Posted by The Pilgrim on 02-07-2008 at 01:05 PM • top

Now, now, The Pilgrim, violence is the medieval way.  No violence.  But the Archbishop would do well to buy a roll of duct tape and apply it to his mouth before he makes more ill-advised statements.

[19] Posted by Katherine on 02-07-2008 at 01:10 PM • top

I think the time has come to have the man committed, He has slipped off the dock.

[20] Posted by art+ on 02-07-2008 at 01:19 PM • top

The point about the Ecumenical Patriarch is quite apt.  As I understand it, what ABC is predicting/endorsing/whatever is essentially ethno-religious courts.  They had these in the Ottoman Empire, which did help protect the Christians.  But I would have thought they were not needed in a Christian country.

[21] Posted by Johng on 02-07-2008 at 01:19 PM • top

The interview was about a lecture the Archbishop gave tonight. The full text of the lecture has been posted on his site. I haven’t read the lecture yet to see if there is any improvement over the interview; and I won’t be able to so so tonight, but it is probably worth holding your fire and taking a look at his full argument before rushing to judgement. (Whether the lecture sufficiently justifies his position, or gives you more ammunition).

[22] Posted by Boring Bloke on 02-07-2008 at 01:23 PM • top

Don’t worry, this man can be relied on to rescue the Anglican Communion.

[23] Posted by Going Home on 02-07-2008 at 01:23 PM • top

OUCH!!!
Ok that’s it, I give up on any significance of being in communion with the ABof C.  It means nothing.  Maybe the Queen will awaken and realize what an afront that really is to all the the UK has stood for and can the dude.

[24] Posted by aacswfl1 on 02-07-2008 at 01:25 PM • top

From his lecture:

Thus, in contrast to what is sometimes assumed, we do not simply have a standoff between two rival legal systems when we discuss Islamic and British law.  On the one hand, sharia depends for its legitimacy not on any human decision, not on votes or preferences, but on the conviction that it represents the mind of God; on the other, it is to some extent unfinished business so far as codified and precise provisions are concerned.  To recognise sharia is to recognise a method of jurisprudence governed by revealed texts rather than a single system.  In a discussion based on a paper from Mona Siddiqui at a conference last year at Al Akhawayn University in Morocco, the point was made by one or two Muslim scholars that an excessively narrow understanding sharia as simply codified rules can have the effect of actually undermining the universal claims of the Qur’an. 

As a Christian leader, Rowan Williams should be fighting for Christian revelation, not supporting the fruits of supposed revelation given in Islam. This is a complete dereliction of his baptismal and ordination vows. “Fight valiantly against sin, the world and the devil, and continue his faithful soldier and servant to the end of your life.”

[25] Posted by Boring Bloke on 02-07-2008 at 01:30 PM • top

“I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.

At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty’s Government-every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation.

The British Empire and the French American Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.

Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo Islam and all the odious apparatus of Nazi Sharia rule, we shall not flag or fail.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.”

Where are the statesmen who will lead us?

-RedHatRob

[26] Posted by RedHatRob on 02-07-2008 at 01:41 PM • top

Rowan Williams should never have been made ABC.  He is a scholar, a thinker, one who is only truly at home amongst gentle, cerebral, like-minded men.  His place is in a Cambridge college or a North Oxford parish, amongst people who are his intellectual equals and understand the rules of the game he delights to play. How at home he would have been amongst the Inklings, experimenting with outrageous ideas and theories, enjoying the battle of wits, secure in the knowledge that at the end of the evening everyone would part the best of friends.  In his radio interview he clearly forgot where he was and who he is, in the joy of the verbal duel. Take a look at this single sentence from the transcipt and marvel that the man was speaking without notes or prior knowledge of the questions:

“I think at the moment there’s a great deal of confusion about this; a lot of what’s been written whether it was about the Catholic church adoptions agencies last year, sometimes what’s written about Jewish or Muslim communities; a lot of what’s written suggests that the ideal situation is one in which there is one law and only one law for everybody; now that principle that there’s one law for everybody is an important pillar of our social identity as a Western liberal democracy, but I think it’s a misunderstanding to suppose that that means people don’t have other affiliations, other loyalties which shape and dictate how they behave in society and the law needs to take some account of that, so an approach to law which simply said, ‘There is one law for everybody and that is all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or your allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts’.”

As a purveyor of obscure ideas in mind-bogglingly complex sentences, the man is unbeatable.  As the leader of the worldwide Anglican communion, he is an utter disaster.

[27] Posted by Elliot on 02-07-2008 at 01:42 PM • top

Fr. Van seems to hold him in high regard also. All is well.

[28] Posted by via orthodoxy on 02-07-2008 at 01:48 PM • top

Would it be too much to ask of Dr. Williams that he take time out from his Islamization hobby to maybe spend a few moments trying to advance the cause of Christianity?  And by that I mean traditional, orthodox Christianity, not the creed embraced by, in the words of Mark Steyn, “a cult for upscale Western sodomites and a few attendent fetishists.”

[29] Posted by Jeffersonian on 02-07-2008 at 01:48 PM • top

I have just about had enough of this spineless S.O.B. ( I am sorry if that is harsh.) But words don’t begin to describe this foolish man and his utter lack of leadership on every important issue set before him. This is betrayal at its worst. You have a brave leader like Nazir Ali the Bishop of Rochester speaking out about the Islamization of Britain and then you have this silly fool. (Surely, he meets the Biblical definition of a fool.) He should follow the courageous lead of the Bishop of Rochester, but no he gives us this damnable tripe. Through his whole term , it has been one more disappointment, one more damnable act of dereliction of duty or betrayal of the church and the Christian cause after another. There is no other way to describe this,other then gut-less betrayal. Anathema! I might as well just say to hell with it all and become Orthodox and join a church not lead by a pathetic cast of deviants,morons and clowns. I honestly don’t know how much more we need to put up with, from Rowan.

[30] Posted by Anglo-Catholic-Jihadi on 02-07-2008 at 01:50 PM • top

A bit of information from a ex-Canadian.  In the Innuit territories of Canada (northern “everything”) I believe that “tribal” law applies or at least “tribal law procedures” are applied.  Seems to work quite well.  Any current Canadians on the board as welcome to correct or expand.

[31] Posted by star-ace on 02-07-2008 at 01:56 PM • top

“We keep getting told how intelligent and highly-educated Rowan Williams is.” You can be extremely intelligent and educated and not have a lick of good old fashioned horse sense. The current ABC is a perfect example of this. And lest we be carried away with the ABCs blazing intellect and superb education, let us remember that it was those who were the most learned and high up in the society in which Jesus and the Apostles lived that were the most resistant to His message.
Listen to the words of Christ: ” At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.”
The words of Paul in 1 Cor. 1:26-31 on this matter are also quite illuminating. The greatly learned religious leaders of Christs day were completely stumped by the wisdom shown by the ‘unlearned’ Savior and apostles (Acts 4:13, John 7:15).
I’m not undervaluing higher learning. But such without wisdom is almost useless, and can often be, as seen in the current ABC for example, downright dangerous. I think it goes without saying that there are a lot of educated fools out there.  Its no wonder the wisdom of God declares: “Better is a poor and wise child, than an old and foolish king…”(Eccl. 4:13).

[32] Posted by Bob K. on 02-07-2008 at 01:59 PM • top

what a moron -

[33] Posted by RoyIII on 02-07-2008 at 02:02 PM • top

I have for a long time fought against the sneaking suspicion that the so-called English Church has sunk so far into the pop culture of our day that it no longer serves as a valid Christian witness and is therefore passing away rather rapidly into the dustbins of history. If this be so, how could they have a better leader than ++ Williams?

[34] Posted by Gone missing on 02-07-2008 at 02:15 PM • top

No doubt the ArchBishop of Canterbury intends for Brits to respond to over-extension of Sharia just as he has responded to the over-extensions of the ECUSA/TEC “prophets”.  He obviously intends for Great Britain to go the way of the Anglican Communion under his leadership.  The Brits would be well-advised to observe the debacle in the AC before taking this twit’s advice on either hate-speech identification or allowance of Sharia. 

I don’t know the precise meaning of “what a berk” (read on the Brits commentary) but he is now undoubtedly qualified by the Americanism “what a -similar four letter word-”.

[35] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 02-07-2008 at 02:17 PM • top

This kind of nonsense out of his mouth make me wonder about one thing.  Is it possible Rowan is actually working back room deals with Shori?  He hasn’t said boo (to my knowledge) about all the bishops being deposed.  Since his personal beliefs conflict with his job, is it possible that he is really for the homosexual agenda and is allowing it to continue on his watch while “positioning” himself as against it?  That he will continue to ignore the problem and allow things to keep moving in the direction they are because that’s what he really wants?
Luke 6:45 “The good man, out of the good treasure of his heart, brings forth good; and the wicked man out of the wicked, brings forth what is wicked: <b>for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.”

[36] Posted by B. Hunter on 02-07-2008 at 02:25 PM • top

Oh, and by the way, I agree with #35…well said!

[37] Posted by B. Hunter on 02-07-2008 at 02:27 PM • top

As some are noting intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing.

This is a great example of Shelby Steele’s idea of Western guilt. In the past immigrants had two choices - assimilate or stay marginalized in ethnic enclaves with limited economic opportunities. But in an era when no culture can be better than another these choices are said to have vanished. But look at the assumption - no culture is better than another. If that’s true then why would people immigrate from their native culture? You may claim economic opportunities, but those opportunities are a direct outcomes of culture.

Muslim immigrants to the UK, Europe and US have already voted with their feet and said the Western culture is better. Trying to force their ways on the West will only make the West look like the places they left.

Certainly cultures change over time and immigrants make their own positive contributions to the native culture, but why is it that the US has millions of people from Ireland, Germany, Italy, Poland, China, Cambodia, Mexico and countless other countries and we don’t look like any of those countries. Yet now we have a small number of Muslim immigrants and we’re being told (along w/ the UK and Europe) that THIS TIME we have to change?

Courage.

[38] Posted by texex on 02-07-2008 at 02:32 PM • top

It is time that this farce be closed down.  I think this is a valid reason not to be in communion with the ABC.

Basser

[39] Posted by Basser on 02-07-2008 at 02:33 PM • top

Star-ace, there is quite a difference between Sharia and tribal law procedures.  I don’t think any Brits would vote to live under Sharia.  If the Muslims want to live under Sharia, maybe they should return to the countries they left.  When you move into another country you are expected to obey their laws.  If the ABC has his way, the UK will become a dhimmi.  Don’t think their citizens would like that arrangement.

[40] Posted by terrafirma on 02-07-2008 at 02:37 PM • top

Ezra 9:3

<blockquote>When I heard about this matter, I tore my garment and my robe, and pulled some of the hair from my head and my beard, and sat down appalled.</blockquot>

[41] Posted by wildfire on 02-07-2008 at 02:40 PM • top

Maybe Rowan Abdul-Kareem Williams has the right idea. Once England is under Sharia law, no uppity African bishops are gonna bother him with Christianity any more.  That’s gotta sound good to him.

[42] Posted by Chazaq on 02-07-2008 at 02:46 PM • top

Consider this though…

Try viewing William’s statements in light of Marxism.

Let’s assume Williams is a Marxist.  Sure, a Marxist with a vague belief in a God but largely in a Deist form.

Williams, therefore, sees Christianity as the problem – the opium of the people.  He has no real belief in an afterlife so he must ensure those who he sees being discriminated against receive justice now, on Earth, as there is no balancing of the scales after death.

Orthodox Christianity, therefore, is actually wrong and evil for providing ‘pie in the sky’ while oppressing homosexuals, women, and various minorities. He believes in redistribution, control by the State (allocating resources) and sexual licence. He sees the highest form of being, the nearest we get to a ‘spiritual experience’ as sex.

‘God’ is only, really, a personification of best parts of humanity.  I think Williams does believe in a God in reality, but not one who is involved with us or can be known. He thinks we are left to our own devices.

So he believes in building Utopia on Earth.  Forget heaven.  That’s not gonna happen and is a pipe dream.  We must eliminate the old, theistic ideas that limit our building of this perfect society which must include everybody.  The ideas of the great Christian leaders, the 39 articles, the creeds themselves are only the ignorant pontifications of well meaning but deluded and ultimately dangerous primitives.

No, the Church must be unmade, it’s old theology wiped out, it’s language (masculine and theological) erased to be replaced by Inclusivity and social justice.  Williams admires TEC and seeks to emulate them.  He is enthralled by Shrori, not frightened.  They are intellectual soul mates.  He wants British society reborn, the past wiped away and a new culture, secular, State controlled and full of notions of justice and not holiness (which is a distraction from the business of living) to be born.

Williams has no allegiance to Christian belief, British history or concepts of virtue. He seeks to undermine the Church, reduce it’s standing and co-operate with the State in bringing a new order.  He does not mind using Islam to make the Church weaker.  He is actually working to unmake Britain so as to rebuild it.

I think he thought he could bring the orthodox on board with him but no, especially after discussions with Shrori, he realises he can’t do it and so he’s now actively disenfranchising the orthodox in a media friendly fashion.  He only gives gestures of support for the orthodox on occasion so as to hide his motivation, to cover over the gentle revolution.  Smoke & mirrors.

Maybe I’m wrong but look at what Williams has said & done through those glasses.

Williams hasn’t tried to save the Church.  He’s been trying to trying to destroy it but while trying to keep the orthodox on board in the hopes he could carry them with him. I think he’s given up and going fl steam ahead.  Williams is smart and calculated I say.  He’s actively trying to diminish Christian belief in the Church so people will focus, instead, on building Utopia through social issues.  He plays a subtle game that is partly (but far from entirely) unconscious.  He’s a Marxist.  Hey, most British Intellectuals are Darwinian Marxists!  To be an intellectual you have to be a Fabian in the UK.

In the end Williams can’t bring himself to defend or support either Christianity or British history or culture.  He actually hates them all.

I find I can predict Williams behaviour from that position!

[43] Posted by jedinovice on 02-07-2008 at 02:58 PM • top

Actually, they did try to introduce Sharia Law into Ontario, Canada, but it was the Muslim women who totally fought against it, and thankfully the Premier of the Province.

[44] Posted by Canuck on 02-07-2008 at 03:07 PM • top

B Hunter asks:

Since his personal beliefs conflict with his job, is it possible that he is really for the homosexual agenda and is allowing it to continue on his watch while “positioning” himself as against it?  That he will continue to ignore the problem and allow things to keep moving in the direction they are because that’s what he really wants?

The current interim dean for the Trinity School for Ministry has a 140 page report detailing Rowan Williams many homosexualist positions. It may be found here.

[45] Posted by robroy on 02-07-2008 at 03:16 PM • top

bbc news on the internet has over 7700 comments on ABC comments. most think he is bonkers.

[46] Posted by art+ on 02-07-2008 at 03:29 PM • top

My God, Anglican Christians are being massacred by Muslims in Africa, becoming martyrs to the faith while the Archbishop of Canterbury calls for sharia law in England.  I think the other shoe just dropped for Nigeria and other GS Primates, the ABP of Canterbury has chosen sides, and it’s their enemies, both within and now without the church he has chosen.  Has an official resignation petition begun yet for Rowan?

[47] Posted by billqs on 02-07-2008 at 04:11 PM • top

Dr. Williams needs to be impeached. Even if his suggestion had any merit, his statements are dramatically turning the popluace against the Church. The fish, indeed, stinks from the head down. Open mouth, insert mitre. When will HRH Elizabeth II call him in to Buckingham Palace and advise hime to return to Wales forthwith and take up fly-fishing as a new permanent vocation?

[48] Posted by RMBruton on 02-07-2008 at 04:30 PM • top

jedinovice (#45), your analysis of how Mr Williams has been deceived and what his true intentions are is really excellent! You are NOT a novice!!!

Mr Williams, I now can officially inform you: Screwtape is pleased.

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas <*))><

[49] Posted by dpeirce on 02-07-2008 at 04:34 PM • top

May the dishonorable Arch-bonkers Williams step down and take a permanent sabbatical in Iran!  And if he won’t resign then may the Queen remove him, and if that fails, then Lord, Rid your church of this incompetent fool for your name’s sake. Amen!

[50] Posted by Spencer on 02-07-2008 at 04:57 PM • top

could it be that Anti-Christ will one day come to us donning priestly vestments and singing “liberty and justice for all!”?

[51] Posted by gatogordo on 02-07-2008 at 05:09 PM • top

Take a look at this single sentence from the transcipt and marvel that the man was speaking without notes or prior knowledge of the questions:

“I think at the moment there’s a great deal of confusion about this; a lot of what’s been written whether it was about the Catholic church adoptions agencies last year, sometimes what’s written about Jewish or Muslim communities;

#28 Elliot, I think it’s a deceptive, inaccurate analogy. I don’t see how you can respect him on the basis of this! It’s the difference between infringing on someone’s religious rights by forcing them to act against their conscience, and de facto removal of people’s civil rights because they happen to be born in (or emigrated to) a particular community. And also, as Greg notes at top, possible infringements on the rights of native born citizens if the two laws conflict. I would say it’s admirably shifty, but never attribute to shiftiness what can be explained by muddle-headedness instead.

[52] Posted by SpongJohn SquarePantheist on 02-07-2008 at 05:48 PM • top
[53] Posted by Michael Daley on 02-07-2008 at 05:57 PM • top
[54] Posted by illinisouth on 02-07-2008 at 06:07 PM • top

If Britian were to adopt “certain aspects” of Sharia law, as the Archbishop suggests is unavoidable, then when Charles ascends the throne, it would be much easier for the Archbishop to bestow upon Charles at his coronation the title Charles desires : Charles wants to be called the Defender of the Faiths, rather than the title that has come down through the British throne since the year 1521 when Pope Leo X (I think) gave it to Henry VIII (back when Henry was still Catholic), the Defender of the Faith. 

Charles was granted a civil wedding, followed by a blessing by the Archbishop of his union, to make his cornation to avoid a constitutional crisis…

Also, since the Archbishop has voting rights in the House of Lords, this should be interesting to see what his fellow Spiritual Lords (senior bishops) and the hereditary Lords have to say as well.  If they say nothing, that would speak volumes…

[55] Posted by Mrs. Lawrence on 02-07-2008 at 06:11 PM • top

1) Star ace, have you ever been on a reserve north of the tree line in the middle of the winter when a (native) bootlegger brings in a fresh load of booze? 
Native law heck, the drunks have treaty rights that guarantee them skidoos and rifles. The RCMP starts knocking heads and tosses the drunks in the jug until the booze runs out.  Then, the “native” system can deal with the offenders (which usually means nothing, because more often than not the bootlegger is the chief’s brother or something).  That’s why there are RCMP posts there in the first place.

2) This entire concept of parallel treatment kinda fell apart in the early ‘60’s with the advent of civil rights didn’t it? 
Pick a system and live under it.  If the system is “unfamiliar” there are doubtless plenty of “familiar” countries that could represent a refuge.

[56] Posted by jamesk on 02-07-2008 at 06:33 PM • top

Blimey… the man’s daft. He needs a keeper.
‘So open minded his brains fell out.’

[57] Posted by DaveB in VT on 02-07-2008 at 07:56 PM • top

Anyone who is hoping for the emergence of a “moderate” Islam must strenuously oppose the introduction of sharia into western countries, and must push for the reversal of its recent re-establishment in Islamic countries.  Williams is on exactly the wrong side here.

[58] Posted by Katherine on 02-08-2008 at 01:35 AM • top

Johnathan Pearce (a Brit) at Samizdata:

Thanks for that, Illinisouth…the piece is good, but the comments are priceless.

[59] Posted by Jeffersonian on 02-08-2008 at 06:16 AM • top

SpongJohn SquarePantheist - I’m afraid I was being somewhat ironic. I intended the verb “to marvel” in the same sense that we marvel at a seal who can balance a plate on his nose. I still maintain that it is amazing the way words just flow out of the man, but as to the content I agree with you 100%

[60] Posted by Elliot on 02-08-2008 at 07:14 AM • top

More calls for Rowan’s resignation are coming out of the woodwork.  The Times just reported this one:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3335026.ece

[61] Posted by Newbie Anglican on 02-08-2008 at 08:42 AM • top

Mrs. Lawrence,

Most of the hereditary peers no longer sit in the House, the life peers now dominate.  Tony having made most of them, they make for a less troublesome upper chamber.  Some of those hereditaries actually thought for themselves on occasion.  The bastards.

[62] Posted by Ed the Roman on 02-08-2008 at 08:43 AM • top

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I blogged on this late last night (well, early this morning, actually):

Dr Williams and Sharia: wrong suggestion, right concern

I worked hard on it, so I’d like it if someone read it!

[63] Posted by John Richardson on 02-08-2008 at 08:44 AM • top

Roger Kimball has a <a >good column</a> on ++Rowan’s mind-numbing ruminations, which ends:

The triumph of Islam in Britain is eminently avoidable. But the triumph of civilizational Quislings like Rowan Williams might just change that.

[64] Posted by Jeffersonian on 02-08-2008 at 09:52 AM • top

The archbishop has posted a clarification on his site:

The Archbishop made no proposals for sharia in either the lecture or the interview, and certainly did not call for its introduction as some kind of parallel jurisdiction to the civil law.

[65] Posted by Boring Bloke on 02-08-2008 at 10:48 AM • top

This is hitting other blogs beside LGF. It’s on Powerline, now, but the most important is http://pajamasmedia.com/xpress/rogerkimball/2008/02/07/who_will_rid_us_of_this_troubl.php, which poses the famous question, “Who will rid us of this troublesome priest?”

[66] Posted by Siangombe on 02-08-2008 at 11:31 AM • top

“Who will rid us of this troublesome priest?”

I fear many (most? all?) are using this quote without realizing its meaning. Perhaps they have a vague sense that it has some historical significance. Sadly, it was the angry outburst of Henry II, overhead by several of his knights, who interpreted it as a command from the king to murder the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Becket.

Henry II (rightly or wrongly) was immediately blamed for Becket’s death and wound up doing very public and humiliating penance for his part in the Archbishop’s death.

To add to the tragedy, Becket had been Henry’s best friend and closest advisor (and chancellor) before Henry nominated him to be Archbishop of Canterbury.

cf. T.S.Eliot’s play, “Murder in the Cathedral” and the movie with Peter O’Toole and Richard Burton (based on the play by Jean Anouilh).

irresistable rabbit-trail: Eliot’s play has one of the most terrifying lines of modern drama - as Becket wrestles with why he is opposing Henry. “This then, is the greatest temptation, to do the right thing, for the wrong reason.”

-RedHatRob

[67] Posted by RedHatRob on 02-08-2008 at 11:57 AM • top

To add to #68—there is now also commentary at “The Corner” at
National Review Online.

[68] Posted by In Newark on 02-08-2008 at 12:09 PM • top

69: Yes, the author acknowledges that the phrase in question was from Henry II. He uses the phrase with the intentional irony that in this case, Beckett himself would have used this of his successor.

[69] Posted by Siangombe on 02-08-2008 at 12:32 PM • top

Just now heard the live news on ClassicFM from the UK.  This was the lead story - responses not positive.

[70] Posted by Miss Sippi on 02-08-2008 at 12:37 PM • top

The story continues to dominate the UK news.  Here is the ABC’s response, courtesy of the BBC:

“The Archbishop of Canterbury is said to be overwhelmed by the “hostility of the response” after his call for parts of Sharia law to be recognised in the UK. Friends of Dr Rowan Williams say he is in a state of shock and cannot believe the criticism from his own Church.
All the main political parties, secular groups and some senior Muslims have expressed dismay at his comments. “

The fact that he is shocked is just one more deeply worrying aspect of the whole debacle.  Did he expect everyone to say “Shariah law in the UK? Now there’s an interesting idea!”  He has no business to be shocked and unbelieving.  If anyone deserves to be shocked and unbelieving around here it’s me and several million other bemused Anglicans stunned by the verbal antics of their (current) leader.

[71] Posted by Elliot on 02-08-2008 at 12:55 PM • top

The archbishop has posted a clarification on his site:

<blockquote>The Archbishop made no proposals for sharia in either the lecture or the interview, and certainly did not call for its introduction as some kind of parallel jurisdiction to the civil law.

</blockquote>

Well, then, why was he talking so long if he wasn’t saying anything?

[72] Posted by Ed the Roman on 02-08-2008 at 04:46 PM • top

Under the headline, “Williams Defiant Over Islamic Law Speech”, the Guardian reports the following:

The Archbishop of Canterbury last night defended his remarks about sharia law and clarified his position amid mounting criticism, saying he was not proposing Islamic law in Britain, nor was he recommending its introduction as a parallel legal system.
<snip>
According to Lambeth Palace, the archbishop “sought carefully to explore the limits of a unitary and secular legal system in the presence of an increasingly plural (including religiously plural) society and to see how such a unitary system might be able to accommodate religious claims”.
His office said Williams had no intention of resigning. His lecture was “well-researched” and involved consultation with legal experts, especially people with knowledge and experience of Jewish and Islamic legal systems.

Gosh.  “Well researched”.  And “involved consultation”.  I actually feel sorry for ++Rowan.  The poor guy really hasn’t got a clue.

[73] Posted by illinisouth on 02-08-2008 at 09:36 PM • top

illinisouth writes: “I actually feel sorry for ++Rowan.  The poor guy really hasn’t got a clue.” Frightening, isn’t it?

[74] Posted by Bob K. on 02-08-2008 at 10:11 PM • top

The Sun is calling for ++Rowan’s removal.  The paper even has a petition you can sign.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article782629.ece

[75] Posted by illinisouth on 02-09-2008 at 08:46 AM • top

This is just awful:  The Sun also has an online game you can play called “Bash the Bishop” where you throw sponges at moving images of ++Rowan.
The Anglican Church was already considered by many to be a joke.  Now this.

[76] Posted by illinisouth on 02-09-2008 at 08:59 AM • top

The fact that he is shocked is just one more deeply worrying aspect of the whole debacle.  Did he expect everyone to say “Shariah law in the UK? Now there’s an interesting idea!” He has no business to be shocked and unbelieving.  If anyone deserves to be shocked and unbelieving around here it’s me and several million other bemused Anglicans stunned by the verbal antics of their (current) leader.

My two pence on the subject:  I do think that the media response to his remarks terribly blew things out of porportion.  I agree, however, that he doesn’t have much room to be shocked.  His own speech awknowledged the assoication between Islamic law and what the vast majority of 21st Christendom, consevative or liberal, would consider barbaric. 

However, like Sarah Hey, I fear that the current composition of the British govt. doesn’t allow much possiblity that, if he were replaced right now, his replacement would be anyone favorable to conservative Anglicans.  It could easily be like going from Griswald to Schori.  At risk of offending, this whole “Bishops appointed by secular politcians” has been a major flaw in the whole “Anglican” thing ever since Henry VIII.

[77] Posted by AndrewA on 02-09-2008 at 09:08 AM • top

I think Rowan Williams is a thoughtful man of ideas.

Unfortunately that does not sufficiently qualify one to be an effective Archbishop of Canterbury. The Controversy over his speech stems from his apparent willingness to consider recognizing Islamic Sharia law alongside or as an alternative to English common law and allow the Muslim community to govern themselves according to its principles rather than the principles of their adopted country.

Tolerance is way over-rated as a virtue. For the arch-bishop not to recognize the connotations and political dimension of appearing to legitimize Sharia law is a blunder of colossal proportions. He is politically and culturally tone-deaf.

The Islamic world asserts their right to impose their values on all cultures, all nations, all peoples. For the arch-bishop to acquiesce in this smacks of appeasement and cowardice on a level not seen since Neville Chamberlain. It is a fundamental and total misunderstanding of the nature of our adversaries. They do not seek accommodation, they seek conquest. We do not need Chamberlain as arch-bishop, we need Churchill.

-RedHatRob

[78] Posted by RedHatRob on 02-09-2008 at 11:29 AM • top

If I were a member of the Boy Scouts, I would submit to the BSA rules in the process of achieving Eagle Scout rank. Should I have a difference with my Scoutmaster about whether I met Eagle Scout requirements, the rules I submitted to would be enforceable as a matter of contract law in a civil court.

When one comes to contract law, US courts get involved in religious matters all the time. Canon, or religious, law lies at the root of the various lawsuits going on around TEC.

The problem is that all these enforceable contractual rules stem from the Judeo-Christian tradition. If a civil court were to enforce sharia rules of family law, for example, we know what would happen to women. Over time, sharia would be extended to other social areas, which could even extend to a renewed tolerance for ugly things like FGM and slavery.

Sharia is like an HIV virus. It is a foreign body that attacks the organism just at the point where it defends itself against foreign bodies. To resist it requires strong medicine coming from confidence and security in ones own moral and religious code, for which the authority of scripture lies at the base. The left, with its relativism, does not have that, and the result is that it lacks the moral courage necessary to defend what it holds as core values: multi-culturalism, tolerance and non-persecution of gays, choice in matters of abortion, equal rights for women, a living wage for all.

How ironic that is: Having largely gained these things, sometimes in the face of dogged conservative opposition, they risk giving it all back in the name of political correctness. In Europe and Canada, they are even progressively giving back the freedom they used to get to this point: freedom of speech.

[79] Posted by Siangombe on 02-09-2008 at 01:09 PM • top

Just to reinforce my concern in 81.

A few weeks ago, I was chatting to a woman who works in an advocacy role for Muslim women in an area that, quite independently of the Bishop of Rochester, she described as a ‘no-go area’ for non-Muslims. Her clients were women in the process of being sectioned into mental health units in the NHS. This woman, who for obvious reasons begged not to be identified, told me: ‘The men get tired of their wives. Or bored. Or maybe the wife objects to her daughter being forced into a marriage she doesn’t want. Or maybe she starts wearing western clothes.There can be many reasons. The women are sent for assessment to a hospital. The GP referring them is Muslim. The psychiatrist assessing them is Muslim and male. I have sat in these assessments where the psychiatrist will not look the woman patient in the eye because she is a woman. Can you imagine! A psychiatrist refusing to look his patient in the eye? The woman speaks little or no English. She is sectioned. She is divorced. There are lots of these women in there, locked up in these hospitals. Why don’t you people write about this?’

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2008/02/has-the-archbis.html

[80] Posted by Siangombe on 02-09-2008 at 01:16 PM • top

“However, like Sarah Hey, I fear that the current composition of the British govt. doesn’t allow much possiblity that, if he were replaced right now, his replacement would be anyone favorable to conservative Anglicans.  It could easily be like going from Griswald to Schori.  At risk of offending, this whole “Bishops appointed by secular politcians” has been a major flaw in the whole “Anglican” thing ever since Henry VIII.”

Don’t worry AndrewA, you haven’t offended anyone this side of the Atlantic because - English bishops are not appointed by secular politicians anyway. The process of electing an archbishop was well explained on another thread:

“The government’s role in appointing an archbishop of Canterbury is growing less and less. It’s the Crown’s Appointment Committee, a sort of mini electoral college made up of representatives of the Province, the whole church, the diocese, plus a rep. from the government which comes up with nominees.”

The debate may be going to shift in the ABC’s favour soon, anyway.  According to the BBC supporters say his comments have been misinterpreted. The archbishop is said to be shocked and hurt by the hostility his comments have provoked, and on his website he said he “certainly did not call for its introduction as some kind of parallel jurisdiction to the civil law”. It is more likely that Dr Williams will receive warm support, such is the respect and affection for him among Anglicans. Dr Williams evidently wanted to provoke discussion about Sharia but not the impassioned and confused debate that has taken place.
So there you have it, fellow Anglicans. It is not the Archbishop who is at fault, we all have much too much affection and respect for him to blame him.  Who is at fault?  Why, us!  All he wanted was a little chat about Sharia and we took it much too seriously. We are guilty of misrepresentation, passion and confusion. Shame on us?  I think not…

[81] Posted by Elliot on 02-09-2008 at 02:05 PM • top

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