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A Response to Fr. Timothy Fountain part 2

Thursday, June 8, 2006 • 4:48 am

When we fall, we get up, repent, and return to the Lord. There can be no peace with sin.
This is the second part of my two part critique of Fr. Timothy Fountain's article The Broad Church, The Orthodox, and GLBT’s; How Can The Minorities Live With The Majority published on Brad Drell's site three days ago.

In the first installment of this critique posted yesterday, I noted Fr. Timothy's emphasis on pastoral accomodation over and above doctrinal truth. That emphasis only becomes more pronounced in the remainder of his article.

We pick up today following his call for pastoral accomodation of LGBT people in orthodox parishes. Here he extends this call to the world-wide Communion.

This honesty must extend to international Anglican and ecumenical discussions. The Preface to the 1549 BCP describes a church in which people grow in holiness by regular attendance at Bible-expounding worship. While evangelicalism has a noble history within Anglicanism, radical conversion is not the dominant model of holiness in our tradition. Our foundational tradition is more at home with steady spiritual progress and sanctification.

This is an interesting assertion but unnecessarily limiting. Fr. Timothy draws a facile dichotomy between conversion and sanctification: two aspects of Christian living that are separated neither in scripture nor in tradition. As an evangelical, I believe that the process of sanctification necessarily flows out of conversion based justification. It is justification (through the conduit of faith alone) that ensures salvation, but if the process of sanctification does not ensue, if there is no change in life and habit, there is reason to suspect that conversion has not in fact occurred. As some put it: we are saved by faith alone; not by a faith that is alone. But anglo-catholics also emphasize both conversion and sanctification. Sanctification is the process of daily conversion: your habits of thought, speech and behavior are changed as you are conformed or gradually converted by holy discipline and the grace of the sacraments to the image and likeness of Christ. The difference between anglo-catholics and evangelicals is not over whether both conversion and sanctification take place, but the ground upon which one is saved. For evangelicals, salvation is grounded on justification and justification comes by faith alone. For anglo-catholics justification (being declared righteous by God) comes at the end of the process of sanctification, not logically prior (as it does for evangelicals) so that salvation is accomplished through the grace imparted to the believer who cooperates with that grace and bears the fruit of a changed life and good works.

In either case, evangelical or anglo-catholic, there is no room for accommodating sin. At no point in the process of sanctification would an evangelical or anglo-catholic say: “this sin is okay for now.” Particularly addictive or habitual sins may take longer than others to break and some sins may plague a believer for his entire lifetime, but he is never at liberty to make peace with them. Nor is the Church

Sins are to be exposed, fought, and mortified by the power of the cross and resurrection. That is the purpose of “a church in which people grow in holiness by regular attendance at Bible-expounding worship.”

When we fall, we get up, repent, and return to the Lord. There can be no peace with sin.

Fr. Timothy goes on to explain:

This isn’t a justification for SSUs and LGBT bishops (in fact, this approach should curb our zeal for innovation), but it is part of our contribution to the greater Christian community and it distinguishes us from Roman Catholic natural law and evangelical measures of conversion and holiness.

So our special charism, our great gift to Christendom, is our ability to be “honest”; to accommodate or at least consider (enter into dialogue with) open rebellion?

He goes on:

As I wrote above, we’ve accepted lots of local option and diversity in the past in order to hold one another in fellowship. We need to stand up for this (our church making a place for LGBT Christians) in ecumenical and inter-Anglican conversation.

As I wrote yesterday, this accommodation is precisely what has led to the disaster we are facing today. Had we stood firmly against these “local option” ordination and SSUs from the beginning VGR would not be a bishop today. Our past complacency is a dramatic failure for which we must repent. It is not a gift to be embraced or a precedent to follow.

But the most disturbing line of the above quoted section is this one:

...we’ve accepted lots of local option and diversity in the past in order to hold one another in fellowship.

This puts everything in place. The mission and goal for Fr. Timothy is institutional unity, or, “holding one another in fellowship.”

I have been working under the assumption the ultimate mission and goal for the orthodox is the reformation of North American Anglicanism. If that can be accomplished whilst holding one another in fellowship, well and good. But if not, so be it.

This, I think, is what has disturbed me so about Fr. Timothy’s article and, even more, about the overwhelmingly positive response it has received from my fellow orthodox Anglicans.

What is our purpose here? What is our mission? Is it reformation or is it safety?

If it is reformation then ultimately that means that those pushing the LGBT agenda must either be expelled, excommunicated, or converted. Reformation means that the false teachers are not “accommodated,” not “held together in fellowship”. Why? Because they are leading souls away from Christ. They may be nice people. They may be pleasant to speak with on a personal level, but they are encouraging confused and lost people to follow a lifestyle that will ultimately devour their bodies and souls. The same is true for all heretics. That’s why Jesus calls them wolves. You don’t embrace wolves, you drive them away from the flock.

Moreover, if your goal is “safety”, you are deceived. Those pushing the LGBT agenda are on a mission too. Do you really think they’ll ultimately settle for even one safe orthodox neighborhood in any precinct of the Episcopal city? Are you kidding? No justice, no peace. They see our stance on homosexuality as fundamentally unjust as South African apartheid. To their minds we are oppressors. For them this is an essential justice issue. So long as any non-celibate homosexual person is denied access to Episcopal ordination or same-sex blessing, the fight will continue until we are expelled, excommunicated, or converted. Don’t be deceived. There is no peace.

Fr. Timothy goes on to articulate some challenges his proposals would pose to both sides:

But the church must challenge both groups as well as affirm them. Their reactions to perceived threats spread discord in the greater church, and ironically increase their own frustration and isolation.

Just as a side note, the moral equivalence in this paragraph is stunning. It is difficult to understand just how Fr. Timothy, an orthodox priest himself, could believe this. It is like visiting first century Corinth and suggesting that those proud and supportive of the man who has taken his father’s wife (1st Cor 5) on the one hand and St. Paul on the other are equally problematic.

In any case, here is his first challenge to the orthodox:

Build a consistent kingdom witness. The containment of LGBT political excess is not an end in itself. Rebuilding Biblical marriage in a hostile culture is important. Addictions of all kinds ravage lives. Gossips ruin churches. Sarcasm and pride increase cultural hostility. So nurture congregations that abound in the fruit of the Spirit. Certainly contend against the works of the flesh, but build loving, serving, discipling communities as you do.

I will definitely agree with this. Orthodox parishes must be orthodox. Here’s the second challenge:

Try to hang in as a loyal minority voice. For many reasons (not the least of which are plenty of other evangelical and Catholic places to go), attentively orthodox Christians are highly unlikely to become the majority in ECUSA. People come to ECUSA for a distinct approach to Christian formation. In accepting this, perhaps you can avoid the “heresy or schism?” decision. John Maxwell’s current N.Y. Times bestseller, The 360 Degree Leader, is a practical guide to exercising positive influence from the middle of an organization. Yes, if you are being forced to compromise on your absolute values, it is time to leave. But in most environments your presence can be a positive source of change, like several of history’s great reforming saints.

Wow, I am once more amazed by the clash of purposes here. Are we really in this thing to provide a “loyal minority voice”? Are we really willing to accept this: “orthodox Christians are highly unlikely to become the majority in ECUSA” as an enduring reality? The dominance of heterodoxy in the Episcopal Church is a relatively new reality; stretching over the last fifty or so years.

Is Fr. Timothy suggesting that for the sake of holding one another in fellowship we accept this new reality as a permanent state?

Fr. Timothy, do you really believe this? Brad Drell and all of you orthodox bloggers and commenters who so highly praised this piece, is this what you’ve been fighting for?

If so, count me out.

The “peace” offered in Fr. Timothy’s article is nothing short of a betrayal of the gospel and a betrayal of all those confused Episcopalians caught up in sexual sin.

As I said at the very beginning, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for Fr. Timothy and Brad Drell and all the rest of the commenters who have received this article with joy.

But I’m afraid Fr. Timothy’s work may have revealed a deep fissure in the orthodox party between those who are fighting for total reformation and those who are fighting to preserve a safe space for all sides.

Fissures are dangerous things. They lead to divisions. Divisions lead to defeat.

We must have a common purpose or we will fail and orthodoxy will be lost.

I don't want this to happen.

Fr. Timothy goes on to give a series of challenges to the LGBT and to the entire church but I think I’ve already dealt with the core premise and assertions of his piece.

For brevity’s sake I’ll end here with a challenge of my own to Fr. Timothy and to all of the orthodox:

Is the “peace with wolves” envisioned in this article supported or permitted in the New Testament? If so, please show me where.

If not, then it's time reassess. The mission envisioned by Fr. Timothy cannot be our mission. We must not seek peace above all, but above all seek to reestablish Anglican biblical orthodoxy in North America.
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Comments:

Thank you for this clarion call.  I agree completely.  If the goal is “safety” as you characterize it, count me out.

R. Scott Purdy

[1] Posted by R. Scott Purdy on 06-08-2006 at 09:17 AM • top

I waited to read both parts before posting anything. Matt+ has, as usual, hit the nail right on the head. I have to wonder about one thing, though. Are there two Fr.Timothy Fountains? I have read and agreed with a lot of his postings but this seems to somewhat of a departure from his usual postions.

My only observation is this: If the orthodox buy into his new position in any meaningful numbers, let’s face it, THE HUNTS OVER. WE MAY AS WELL PISS ON THE FIRE AND CALL IN THE DOGS.

THE SNARKSTER

[2] Posted by the snarkster on 06-08-2006 at 09:58 AM • top

Matt+ thanks for your thorough and thoughtful critique.  I think this is a HUGELY important debate.  I am very thankful for both you & Tim+

I need to re-read Tim’s piece in its entirety again before I respond more fully.  But I thank you for speaking boldly—I think you’re one of those “clear trumpets” we need right now.

[3] Posted by Karen B. on 06-08-2006 at 10:54 AM • top

Well, I only got a few sentences through my re-read of Tim’s piece.  I was struck by this sentence and perhaps this provides the key to understanding what he wrote.

Absent that, I ask us to think about ways that we might minister to the fears of both minorities.

Note that WE!!

Tim+ has previously defined the minorities as:
1) LGBT
2) theologically informed, orthodox Episcopalians

Tim+ obviously personally falls into the second category from all I know of him and his ministry. 

So, I think the key to understanding his piece is that it is NOT addressed to us orthodox.  Perhaps he would totally agree with Matt+ as to what our role and calling as orthodox / evangelicals is.

But here he is putting himself in the shoes of the folks in the middle.  Trying to look at this conflict through their eyes, since they have often tended to be ignored as we on both “sides” lob our grenades at each other over their heads.

This is an interesting tactic, since the “mushy middle” as we sometimes call it…, or the “broad church” in Tim’s parlance, probably holds the majority of votes to what happens at GC06 and whether or not ECUSA complies with Windsor.  At best we “minorities” probably only make up about 30-40% of ECUSA

So, that’s where I think Tim+ is coming from.  Which may change how one critiques this.  I hope Tim+ will chime in here.  As I said above, I think this is a really important discussion.

[4] Posted by Karen B. on 06-08-2006 at 11:05 AM • top

Dear Karen B.,

If the argument advanced by Fr. Fountain is flawed for the “orthodox”, how can it be otherwise for the “middle”?

R. Scott Purdy

[5] Posted by R. Scott Purdy on 06-08-2006 at 11:17 AM • top

Karen,

Thanks alot for your insights and input. I think it is clear both from the section you quote and the whole of his essay that Fr. Timothy is suggesting a way that we can all live together peaceably. He may indeed be setting himself in the “broadchurch” or centrist shoes, just to think through the situation from that perspective.

I think the problem with this approach is that the centrists have misunderstood the nature of our divisions from the very beginning. If he is walking a mile in their shoes Fr. Timothy succeeds in simply restating their misunderstandings.

Both the LGBT and the orthodox have understood from the beginning that we are dealing with essential issues. From the LGBT perspective it is “justice”. From ours it is fidelity. These are not only qualities essential to the two sides. But both sides believe these qualities MUST characterize the whole church in order for the church to properly be the body of Christ.

Centrists, for some reason, have been unable to understand or grasp this reality and for that reason they have been unable to suggest a reasonable solution.

Fr. Timothy, it seems, has accepted some of the centrist (even revisionist) assumptions about the emotional/fear-driven/relational aspect of this debate and that has, in my opinion clouded and skewed his analysis.

[6] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-08-2006 at 11:54 AM • top

Matt+ I see what you mean, and am inclined to agree with your point about the “essential issues” at stake on both sides.

And I too have always been frustrated when the issue gets framed by “progressives” in terms of “fears” of the “orthodox,” so I understand exactly why you consider how Tim frames the argument to be problematic.

Got to leave the computer for a bit now, but I’ll be back this evening to see how this discussion is shaping up, and may have more to say then.

[7] Posted by Karen B. on 06-08-2006 at 12:08 PM • top

What is very disturbing to me is that Fr. Timothy’s essay is not, on substance, all that different from the following point of view:

“But, you see, no one is asking any other province of the Anglican Communion to raise up gay and lesbian people and ordain them as priests, much less ordain them as bishops. No one is asking any other part of the Anglican Communion to do that. We’re only saying this is right for us; this is where God is leading us at this particular time in our context, and can’t we all stay at the same Anglican table while you do what is right for your context and we do what is right for ours? That seems to be the best way to move forward. It’s a kind of parallel integrity, if you will — that we’re not agreeing about everything, but we’re agreeing to stay in fellowship with one another while we have disagreements about this.”

That was VGR speaking to the PBS linked this evening at T19

http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=13366

The very same logic is employed in Fountain’s+ piece and the very same logic applauded by orthodox pundits and commenters.

[8] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-08-2006 at 02:54 PM • top

Parallel integrity is a nonsequitur.  For a definitive refutation of it see A. Einstein (who knew the Truth but never apprehended it).  On the other hand Matt, I think I remember you will be at GC’06.  As you go to your sequestered Echurarist, ask yourself: “Is this some kind of parallel integrity?”  Repentance is a product, not a cause, Matt.  Test these concepts with your personal experience.  Test them with Jesus’ teaching.  Love T

[9] Posted by terebinth on 06-08-2006 at 04:28 PM • top

Here is Timothy+‘s response:

“Matt+ or Karen, please post this to Matt+‘s article pt. 2, on my behalf and with my permission….
Really, I have no intention of being an opponent of orthodox theology or a useful idiot for Integrity.  I think I was crystal clear that orthodoxy is my position and desire for the church.  My whole point was that we can’t continue to yell the same slogans back and forth and expect any different result than what we have.  As I wrote, I don’t claim to have a solution and there is no solution that can meet the demands of Stand Firm and Integrity at the same time - somebody will have to sacrifice something or there has to be a separation.
Frankly, I am here in SD working at less than half the income I had in L.A. because I would not compromise on my commitment to Christian faith and practice.  I have paid a price and I might pay more as things unfold.
My last comment on the Drell blog says it all if anybody wants another quote.  I do not believe that we honor Christ by forcing choices between unity and truth, orthodoxy and orthopraxis, or any other aspects of the New Testament church.  All of those choices divide Christ - ECUSA’s manifest failure.
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.  (Matthew 24:31)

[10] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-08-2006 at 05:24 PM • top

You know, Terebinth, I really do admire your ability to speak your truth with no hatred despite the comments against you.

Your last comment really made me wonder.  Is there really going to be a sequestered Eucharist? The thought saddens me more than anything I have heard.  Not being a theologian, I tend to think with my heart in Eucharistic matters.  If Jesus is present, I will partake. 

I had to call my son, who will represent the southen third of our state at GC2006.  He has a oure faith that I envy.  He is only 22, but during his three years as Student Forum President, he has witnessed 40 Baptisms and over one hundred Confirmations.  A record.  College kids, goodness.  I asked if he had heard of a sequestered Eucharist.  He of course said no. He is not filled with judgement, nor hate.  He loves his church.

But, Matt, I did tell him he had permission (if he meets you) to tell you the answer to your erudite question of what I had been smoking - Benson and Hedges menthol.

[11] Posted by Heidi on 06-08-2006 at 05:57 PM • top

Heidi, the “sequestered” Eucharist is that which the High Orthodox will have each morning before CG’06 convenes, aside and apart from the GC service.  Apparently they will also have their own Scripture Report.  It is 50/50 if they are better or worse off than the GC in general.  But they will be untainted, as they see it.  BH 100s are no better for you than other poisons generally available.  Love T

[12] Posted by terebinth on 06-08-2006 at 06:38 PM • top

Timothy+,

“I do not think we honor Christ by forcing choices between unity and truth…”

Thank you for your response above. I would love nothing more than to live in the situation you have described, where unity and truth are held together.

But I think you and I differ in that I think the NT is clear that when it comes to false teaching and false teachers, the choice between unity and truth is a real one. We are not forcing it. It has been forced upon us. Recognizing this does not dishonor Christ. Rather, Christ is dishonored when false teachers subvert his word.

[13] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-08-2006 at 06:38 PM • top

Tell me about it, terebinth - or rather explain that to the 14th allele on my 23rd chromosone…there lies the secret to my addiction….

Really, I pray that the Lord’s will be done at GC2006, and it will.  I pray that we all recognize the brothers and sisters who truly want to preach the gospel.  I pray that St. Francis of Assisi will prevail.  “Teach the gospel at all times.  If necessary, use words.” Unfortunately I see too many words of guilty consciences, too many guilty consciences.  I see too much condemnation.  I see blindness to the essential message of the bible - to love one another.  To not take communion, to say that a sinner is not welcome in your church…how will we ever love one another?

I know that you would like the more liberal to be excommunicated.  But, where will that lead?  To another congregation that might err in another matter of scripture, another matter of doctine.  Then what? Deny communion again?  Break away again?  Not stay and profess your beliefs with love and empathy for those that disagree?

It is just not what my interpretation of God’s love understands.

[14] Posted by Heidi on 06-08-2006 at 07:59 PM • top

Bro. Matt, I am sorry that Br. Timothy is going wobbly just before the great battle.  Now is a time for a Churchill.  ISTM that even among the orthodox, they can’t bring themselves to declare that the LGBT drowd is in deep rebellion and sin and by God’s word barred from communion and memership.  Our relationship to them should be to pray that God would grant them repentance.  It must not be accomidation.  That is to not obey Scripture and is rebellion. Godliness and evil can not coexist in any church.  One will be put out by the other.  I don’t know if even the strong orthodox Episcopalians have in them what it takes.  I hope they are really able to bear the heat of battle.  Bles the Lord for your strong stand and efforts.  Peace and Power

[15] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 06-08-2006 at 08:34 PM • top

You mean cigarette smoking is genetic too???

Hmmm, maybe i’ll try that on my persistent little 8-year old daughter:  “I can’t quit honey bunches—i was born this way”.

Interesting… but I really don’t think she’ll fall for it.  I’ll stick with “Daddy is weak, please forgive me, and keep praying for change!”

[16] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 06-09-2006 at 06:54 AM • top

Hello, since the issue of Justification is brought up in this article, I thought it would be helpful to note the doctrine of the 39 Articles on justification:
XI. Of the Justification of Man.
WE are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore that we are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort; as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.
http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/articles/articles.html#11

Homily of Justification:
[The efficacy of Christ’s passion and oblation.] In so much that infants, being baptized and dying in their infancy, are by this sacrifice washed from their sins, brought to God’s favor, and made his children and inheritors of his kingdom of heaven. And they which in act or deed sin after their baptism, when they turn again to God unfeignedly, they are likewise washed by this sacrifice from their sins, in such sort, that there remains not any spot of sin that shall be imputed to their damnation. This is that justification or righteousness which St. Paul speaks of when he said, “No man is justified by the works of the law, but freely by faith in Jesus Christ.”

...we must renounce the merit of all our said virtues of faith, hope, charity, and all other virtues and good deeds, which we either have done, shall do, or can do, as things that are far too weak and insufficient, and imperfect, to deserve remission of our sins, and our justification, and therefore we must trust only in God’s mercy, and that sacrifice which our high priest and Savior Christ Jesus, the son of God, once offered for us upon the cross, to obtain thereby God’s grace, and remission, as well of our original sin in baptism, as of all actual sin committed by us after our baptism, if we truly repent and turn unfeignedly to him again.

Our office is not to pass the time of this present life unfruitfully and idly after we are baptized or justified, not caring how few good works we do to the glory of God and profit of our neighbors. Much less is it our office, after that we be once made Christ’s members, to live contrary to the same, making our selves members of the devil, walking after his incitements, and after the suggestions of the world and the flesh, whereby we know that we do serve the world and the devil, and not God.
http://www.geocities.com/curtis_caldwell/bk1hom03_mod.htm

God Bless.

William

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[17] Posted by William on 06-10-2006 at 10:10 AM • top

Wobbly?  I am no less wobbly than those who are arguing a New Testament mandate to separate from heretics, yet are still here hanging around GenCon rather than heading to Rome, Geneva or Constantinople.  Honestly, quit drawing lines in the sand and go if that is what the Lord is commanding.

Or are many of the “firm” orthodox no different from the LGBT?  LGBT shout “the church oppresses us”, yet want to wear mitres and have SSUs from the oppressive institution.  Likewise, we get all the announced “last straws” from orthodox people who keep showing up.

My comments called for: Trinitarian, Biblical & Nicene liturgical language in the church; rejection of active homosexuals in the episcopate; rejection of SSUs.  I did, however, open the doors to LGBT people who want to seek Christ to come to church, and for us to be responsive to some very real pastoral barriers to their spiritual growth.  This is “unBiblical, wobbly, heretical?”

I will be interested to see who actually leaves after GC - my guess is that many of the LGBT advocates and many of the “orthodox” have come to a place where they need one another as stawmen, and targets of polemic at our various blogsites…not brothers and sisters in Christ, but not separated from one anothers antics, either.

[18] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 06-10-2006 at 10:42 AM • top

The difference Timothy, for those of us who are still here, is that we do not believe it our duty to live with heretics or find a way to live at peace with heretics, but to find a way to defeat them and rescue those under their thrall. That is what disturbed me about your article. You seem to want a way to find a peaceable settlement. My point was that even if you stay, there can be no peaceable settlement. There must be conflict until false teaching and false teachers are driven out.

It is not incumbent upon the orthodox to leave.  That may be necessary and I’ve already indicated my line. But it is ALWAYS incumbent upon us, if we stay, to drive wolves away from the flock, not give them a safe section of the pasture and let them have their way with whatever sheep they can catch.

Your article, as I pointed out, opened doors not just for those GLBT people seeking the truth with a willing heart open to repentance, but sought to find a way for them to live comfortably without facing the truth. Moreover, you seemed to want to provide a “safe place” not just for those seeking truth but for those who teach and lead falsely. There is a huge difference between a seeker who believes that homosexuality is a gift from God and someone like Susan Russell or L. Crew. The NT definitely recognizes that difference as well. The seekers are just lost. The leaders are blind guides and wolves.

Please point me to any NT passage that advocates making peace with wolves?

[19] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-10-2006 at 11:07 AM • top

Matt,

Where in the world did all your hatred come from? Do you truly thank that our Maker, our Divine Lord needs your protection? No, he needs you to minister, he does not need you to hate.  I am sorry, but that is all I see.  I see you using the bible as a weapon.  I see you wanting to say ‘the Lord loves me better,’ ‘the Lord wants me to cause this diversity, so I can be a better soldier than the rest.’

I just don’t understand how you can take a book of love and turn it into one of hate and judgement.

I can see why you are uncomfortable when you open the bible.  You are opening it to find condemnatio for others to make yourself feel more just.  I am so sad that people do not see the bible for what it is.  God’s lessons to us, God’s lessons for faith , hope and charity.

[20] Posted by Heidi on 06-10-2006 at 11:42 AM • top

Thank you for your personal insights Heidi. But my points are based on NT mandates, objective truths. We are all sinners, but we are all obligated to obey the law of Christ. The NT is very specific and clear with regard to false teachers. 

Jude (the whole book)
2nd John 9-11
2nd Peter 2
Galatians 1:6-9
1 Cor 5
Matthew 7:15-20


I am uncomfortable when I open the bible becuase I am confronted with the infallible truth of the Holy God. I see myself in that light as a miserable sinner, a wicked offender, in need of repentance, grace and mercy…all Christ has made availble throuhg his work on the cross. That repentance must be open to all. Unfortunately when sin is called good, people are kept from repentance and led away from Christ. These leaders are the blind guides and wolves Jesus refers too.

[21] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-10-2006 at 12:06 PM • top

Oh, and Marty the Baptist.

Far be it from me to ask you to pick up a book and study the brain that God gave to you - for a reason.  The reason being to challenge and nurture those around you.  The brain, the last frontier.  The source of all energy, all thought, all emotion. It might interest you to know that at any given time between 900 billion and a quadrillion synapses are firing in your brain at any time.  And, at any time, the synapses might misfire.  Think about it.  Many times, if you open a pea pod, all peas are not perfect.  It is my belief that God gave us that as a challenge.  A challenge to look at others with love and sympathy, and nurturing.  A chance to reach out and help our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Christ did not make us perfect.  I think he did that to challenge us - to see how ‘Christlike’ we can be to our brothers and sisters who have flaws.  He did it to nurture our souls in His ways.

Heidi

[22] Posted by Heidi on 06-10-2006 at 12:08 PM • top

Ok, Matt,

Unless I have and condemnation for what you see as sin, You can’t respond.  I understand , completely.

[23] Posted by Heidi on 06-10-2006 at 02:18 PM • top

Fr. Tim, Matt K, Heidi, all make sound and loving points.  I’m sure Exodus International would most certainly welcome your participation, and benefit from your own ministry—as I’m sure you all would benefit from theirs.

Heidi in particular,i agree completely that God gives is people who are so very hard to love, simply to see what we are capable of.  I love gay people, honestly I do and if you knew me personally you would never doubt this.  But people who deliberately lead others into sin, and put their eternal souls at risk of hellfire, are indeed very very hard to love.

[24] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 06-10-2006 at 02:26 PM • top

Who have I led into sin, Marty?  The only influence I have is upon my kids - three wonderful adults who love life.  Three kids who look at every weed for its purpose, three who would offer love to the weak and try to save the lost.  Three who would , never, ever judge you for your color, for your religion, for your income or lack thereof.  Three who have been traumatized by mental illness of family memebers the likes of which I hope you never have to bear. Three who have been challenged by Christ to love, no matter what.

[25] Posted by Heidi on 06-10-2006 at 02:49 PM • top

P.S. Marty,

If my oldest goes to convention and votes differently than you would like, it is, and I guarnatee this, not to cause disscension, but to spark love among us. “In my Father’s house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you.” (John 14:2)

The Lord has a dwelling place for all of his children, Marty, not just one.  Yes, for you, and ‘you’ and ‘you’ and ‘you.’

[26] Posted by Heidi on 06-10-2006 at 03:06 PM • top

Are you blocking my comments Rick?  Dont’ know hat happened to my p.s.

[27] Posted by Heidi on 06-10-2006 at 03:14 PM • top

oops, sorry.

[28] Posted by Heidi on 06-10-2006 at 03:29 PM • top

If I’m reading this right, we are stuck at the Righter trial’s conflation of heresy and sin…are we still arguing the “homosexuality = sin; sin = unBiblical; unBiblical = heresy; therefore homosexuality = heresy” thing?

Of course the Righter decision seemed to deny heresy, sin or anything else as long as an ordinand wrote the proper ember day letters or whatever lofty principle the court cited.

Anyway, I am going to shut up.  That my Drell piece is a stumbling block for the orthodox really troubles me - since I did not express a doctrinal point (although people are reading some truly wierd assertions into what I wrote)I can’t “recant”, but I will say one last time that I work for orthodox theology (to the point of being called a “Nazi” at a recent meeting”) and that my prayers at Lent & Beyond are a reflection of my heart.

My thoughts at Drell were really from an organizational leadership point of view (and the people who misinterpreted them as “therapeutic” need a remedial reading course.  All sides are welcome to shout and maneuver until one wins.  And the “winner” will be a ruling elite largely unreflective of most of the people in most of the congrgations. And yes, I would rather live under an orthodox ruling elite.

[29] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 06-10-2006 at 03:58 PM • top

There seems to be a continuing assertion, from Heidi and others, that the orthodox don’t love gay people. All I can say is BULLFEATHERS. If that is all can understand about the orthodox position, you need to read all these posts more carefully. I was watching a news program the other night about the Alabama Gay Marriage amendment. They were interviewing the pastor of First Baptist Church in Butler, Alabama. He is conservative Southern Baptist in a conservative West Alabama community and this is what he said, “Make no mistake about it. I love homosexuals. It’s homosexuality that I hate.” I have always felt that way. Love the sinner, hate the sin. My major problem with the LBGT folks is that they are trying to force me to believe that homosexual acts are not a sin when the Bible and 2000 years of Christian belief quite plainly state that it is.

To Fr. Timothy: I owe you an apology. You have stuck your neck out for orthodoxy in a way that very few of us can even imagine. I give thanks for you and your ministry (as well as Fr. Matt and many others who are putting their livelihood on the line for what they believe). God bless you all. I think everyones nerves are a touch frayed right now. Forgive us.

the snarkster

[30] Posted by the snarkster on 06-10-2006 at 05:08 PM • top

Timothy+,

I don’t think I need a remedial reading course. I think I was thinking through the ramifications of your suggestions.

I do not doubt your orthodoxy or your sincerity.

I do disagree with the proposals you put forward in your article because I believe they clearly imply an accomodation with false teaching. Pragmatically speaking, I think they will end in utter defeat for the orthodox cause.

There is nothing to “recant” because your orthodoxy was NEVER in question. I was hoping to discuss your ideas.

[31] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-10-2006 at 05:10 PM • top

Who have I led into sin, Marty?

Geez lady, jump to conclusions much?  Or are you just trying to pick a fight?  Did I accuse you of any such thing?  No not at all…

Unless…
Unless you’re one of those who goes around telling children that what the Lord has condemned is now all peachy-keen, in which case you place their very souls at risk, and have earned a millstone necklace.  But i have no idea if you’re one of those or not…  Kindof afraid to ask at this point.

[32] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 06-10-2006 at 06:31 PM • top

So Heidi can see into the heart and knows that the orthodox are doing what they do not because they love The Lord and His Word, but because of the hate and lack of love for the LGBT crowd.  Such insight. Maybe she can get her own TV show.  Real spiritual psychobable.  Heard that before.  Yawn…

[33] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 06-10-2006 at 08:10 PM • top

So Heidi can see into the hearts of the orthodox and she knows that they do what they do, not for the love of the Lord and His word, but because of hate and harm for the LGBT crowd.  Such insight.  Maybe she can get her own TV show.  Spiritual psychobable.  Yawnnnn….

[34] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 06-10-2006 at 08:15 PM • top

Timothy+

If this was intended, I disagree with the implication that you can remain in ECUSA a long term orthodox minority and not compromise your faith in a serious way. Perhaps in your personal situation in SD you can avoid corrosion, but families with small children growing up in the church realize that what the denomination will have a huge impact on the children spiritual well being. As parents, we need to get it right. We don’t need to be in a denomination where we can’t send our kids to church camp, have to carefully screen denominational educational materials, try to steer them away from Episcopal campus ministries in most schools or explain to them constantly why we disagree fundamentally with our own Bishop of matters of faith. They will look at our choice, in this case our choice to remain in the Episcopal Church despite constant complaining, as evidence of where our treasure is.

You make a very good point about orthodox continually drawing lines in the sand while later showing up at General Convention. I wonder if some of us haven’t unwittingly developed a symbiotic relationship with leaders on the revisionist fringe. Do we enjoy the conflict too much? What has been clear to me for some time is that the current situation is destructive on both sides, and has become a poor use of God’s resources.

How many people will leave after GC2006? So many have left already that it is hard to say. What is clear is that those that stay, particularly the clergy, will have to reach their own accomodation with the long term reality in the church.

[35] Posted by Going Home on 06-11-2006 at 05:10 PM • top

If Jesus were on this blog today, despite the desire of many to have him turn over the tables of the money changers, He would probably be reattaching the centurion’s ear after Peter’s use of the sword (even if it is the sword of truth). 

If Jesus were at GC2006, He would rise from the table where He has been sitting with the teachers and the publicans (?Integrity and AAC or reasserters and reappraisers in any order you wish) and wash their feet. 

The whole convention should start out with division of the House into respective camps and having each hear each others confession of sin, receive absolution, wash each other’s feet and partake of the Eucharist.  The chances of that happening are less than the chances of ECUSA repenting.  That grieves the Heart of Christ.

Both parties here need to repent.  Unfortunately, neither side truly comprehends its manifold wickedness.  Neither side sees any need for repentance.

[36] Posted by richardc on 06-12-2006 at 11:18 AM • top

richardc,

I have to respectfully disagree. We began this whole site and our little slice of this movement by telling our people that we are the ones who need to repent, not “the other side.” We did a poor job of defending the church from heresy, and we are reaping what we have sown. That we don’t do such repentance daily, both here and in private, is indeed a shortcoming, but I think pretty much everyone around here at least is well aware of our need to repent, and why.

[37] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-12-2006 at 11:39 AM • top

Greg,

The reappraisers see that they need to repent of the grief they caused in their decision at GC2003.  The reasserters as you note, believe they need to repent for not having defended the faith more adequately.  As I see it, neither side truly comprehends its sin toward the other.  Each side is caught up in seeing the sin of which they can publically repent. 

The truth be told, most of the reasserters truly would wish the gays would just go elsewhere.  We do not truly love them despite all the speeches to the contrary.  They are the publicans and Mary Magdalenes of Jesus’ time.  There are programs for them elsewhere.  We really don’t need them to be a visible presence in our churches. 

Those are the sins which we hide in our hearts and don’t verbalize (in fact, we would vehemently deny them).  The truth is our behaviour betrays our mouths.  We need to repent of that mindset not of failure to act earlier to defend the faith.  We need to repent of our failure to love them as ourselves.  We love the law more than the person to whom the law has been given.


We are not able to acknowledge that we have sinned against God and them in our attitudes towards them.  That is why the concept of washing their feet is too much for us to bear.  How can we truly love them and have them believe us while at the same time bear witness to light?

This is in no way meant to be unappreciative of the great work so many on the reasserting side have done for so many of us in upholding the truth.  I thank you for that and pray for your work at this time.  Most of all, I hope we can meet at the foot of the cross were God’s greatest act of mercy and grace is manifest.

[38] Posted by richardc on 06-12-2006 at 12:17 PM • top

richardc,

I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I truly do love my gay brothers and sisters just the way I say I do. From time to time I have to mention that I’ve put myself in harm’s way to protect them from violence at the hands of bigots, and this is one of those times. I don’t want them to go elsewhere. But neither do I want them to remain as long as they’re not going to submit themselves as we are called to do. If gays in the church want to join me for - among other things - confessing our sins and seeking forgiveness for them, I welcome them as I do anyone else. But if they want to join me to have their particular brand of sin redefined as a sacred thing, just because their experience tells them it’s not a sin, then yes - they need to go somewhere else. The same goes for anyone else who commits a sin on which the Bible’s teaching is so clear.

I do agree with you, though, that we do not spend enough time repenting of the hurt we have caused each other through our words and actions. However, it doesn’t follow that because we are guilty of that, we must seek unity under heretical terms.

[39] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-12-2006 at 12:26 PM • top

Greg,

I agree with you.  I am not seeking unity under heretical terms.  God forbid!  However, I am suggesting that at the foot of the cross, there is much grace, mercy and forgiveness.  At the foot of the cross, there is great power over darkness and over sin which has long held so many in the lies of the world.

Now, how do we tell the reappraisers that “their particular brand of sin” is NOT a sacred thing and show them in a convincing manner that we truly love them?  Both tasks are important.

[40] Posted by richardc on 06-12-2006 at 12:49 PM • top

richardc,

I thought that showing them the parts of the Bible where it condemned homosex as sin; pointing them to 2,000 years of Christian teaching on sexual morality; and confirming that, no, Scripture is not co-equal to tradition and reason but supreme above them; would have done the trick, but alas, no.

So, not to sound flippant, but if you come up with a betetr way, please let us know immediately!

smile

[41] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-12-2006 at 12:55 PM • top

I think the better way was outlined by Christ in John 8.  The teachers of the law cited the petinent bibilical laws, in that scenario, an equally henious sin, adultery.  Christ answered the teachers with “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”  He then extended mercy and forgiveness to the woman.  Finally, after the forgiveness and mercy had been extended and received, He affirmed the law and instructed her to go and sin no more.

I have found very few gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered individuals who truly believe that the Church loves them.  Most of the time they feel judged and condemned.  Is there any wonder why so many had been closeted?  Their indignation has reached a point of not taking it anymore and have reacted by reappraising Scripture to allow them a haven of feeling loved.  That approach is anathema to Scripture.  We fed it.  We nurtured it by what we did and by what we left undone.

So if you asked me for a better way, I would say ask their forgiveness for the way we have treated them.  Learn to love them and put it into action by advocating justice (not gay rights, JUSTICE).  Then they will begin to see the love of Christ in us.  Then they will truly understand what we mean when we say we love the sinner but not the sin. 

Idealistic?  Perhaps but so was the hope that any of us could be saved from sin.

[42] Posted by richardc on 06-12-2006 at 04:10 PM • top

richardc,

I agree that John 8 is a great model, but how do we handle it when the response of the woman is not, “I want to repent, I want to be forgiven,” but “I have no need of repentance - for what do I have to repent?”

Everything downstream from that which you’ve described sounds perfect - but we’re stuck here with a refusal of some gays and lesbians to live in the same world of sin and repentance as the rest of us. What then>

[43] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-12-2006 at 04:21 PM • top

The evangelist John noted, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, no response of acceptance of forgiveness or desire on the part of the adulterous woman to change her ways.  I think the silence tells much. 

If we believe that the adulterous woman changed her ways, what is John telling us about that moment of transformation?  The actions of Christ, how He dealt with the teachers and their demand of adherence to the law and how he dealt with the woman clearly must be the message that transformed a non-receptive non-expecting heart into one which accepted the grace of Christ. 

You see, your question is focused on the problem of their unwillingness to repent of their state of sin.  I am suggesting that we need to focus on extending the grace of God which tells them “where are your accusers? Did no one condemn you?  Neither do I.  Go on your way and sin no more.”

Corrie ten Boon once noted that there is no place where the grace of God can not reach.  When I begin to see them in that deep place, I will begin to see the grace of God.  Mercy triumphs over judgement.

[44] Posted by richardc on 06-12-2006 at 05:02 PM • top

Greg, Richard, fascinating to see this discussion and good back and forth even on such a busy day when events could so easily overtake reflection.  Thanks for the food for thought.

[45] Posted by Karen B. on 06-12-2006 at 05:27 PM • top

richardc,

Yes, it would be one thing if the gay advocates accepted the offer to confess their sins and repent of them. We could even proceed if they met our offers with silence, whether that was a time for reflection, or casual indifference.

Instead, the reply we get is, “Our behavior is not a sin.” What would Jesus have said to the woman had she been defiant to Him?

[46] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-12-2006 at 06:09 PM • top

The point is she wasn’t defiant.  Your question is a hypothetical which is not consistent with John 8.  There is a gap between your question and that scripture.  In order to understand what that gap is, one has to ask the following question.  What was the transformational event that caused that woman to go and sin no more (if that is what we believe happened) rather than to be defiant?  I believe the answer lies in the grace and mercy of God.  Christ extended these to that woman.

I believe when a person comes into the light of God’s mercy and grace they can only be transformed.  We are chosen vessels.  We are chosen to bear Christ’s light - his mercy and grace to those under the power of sin.  How do I best reveal that mercy and grace to gay, lesbian and transgendered people who don’t see the need for repentance?  I keep showing them mercy and grace. 

I keep loving them.  At the moment when their eyes are opened, when the Father draws them unto Himself, they will be transformed.  So, just keep loving them.  Are they any different than you or I?  Were not many of us resistant to the gospel at some point in our lives? 

Greg, our need to win in this situation, that is, to be theologically right, grieves the heart of God because our approach does more to draw more away from Him than to Him.  This is in no way to say we should not be at GC2006 standing up for the faith once delivered.  God forbid!  Its just that if we spent a fraction of the energy truly loving them, we would bear greater witness of the mercy and grace of God.  Isn’t that what we’re called to do? 

Peace and grace to you.  catch you tomorrow.  I greatly appreciate all you do here and bless you for it.

[47] Posted by richardc on 06-12-2006 at 09:00 PM • top

“I am always trying to get the numerical majority to provide some kind of answer to the question, ‘Why are you not giving us space?’” - Dean Paul Zahl

“To help those who have already left ECUSA…  But their relationships with global primates, the relationships that give them their security hangs on a thread.” - Canon David Anderson, per Matt+ on 6/12

Does this help some of those who were put off by the language of “safety” in what I wrote?  Here are two orthodox stalwarts giving attention to the need for safe space from which to bear orthodox witness.

BTW richardc is doing some good work with John 8.  The woman’s acute concern was imminent stoning, even though her chronic problem was sin.  Jesus dealt with the threat at hand first - he gave her safety by confounding the judgemental crowd - and having defended her in her most acute need was able to speak to the bigger issue of her need for repentance.  That’s all I was writing about the LGBT - their acute need is to hear that they are not uniquely cut off from God - that God and God’s people do indeed love them.  To build that relationship allows room for the work of teaching Biblical sexuality.  Not all are going to buy it, any more than all of our church members are going to become good stewards, or stop gossiping, or be good husbands and wives, etc. But the grace-filled space to teach and challenge them must be created.

[48] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 06-13-2006 at 05:01 PM • top

Timothy,

Thank you for returning to the thread to give us your thoughts. There’s no substitute for having the author here!

I understand completely - and agree with completely - what you’re saying here:

their acute need is to hear that they are not uniquely cut off from God - that God and God’s people do indeed love them.

Where we disagree, I think, is the extent to which we have already made that plain, and the conditions under which we continue to make it plain, while obeying God’s word.

The gay advocates in this church have no intention of sitting still and listening to what we have to say about what the Bible teaches about sexuality. They have shown that to be the case over and over. Months ago I noted that they define their present oppression in terms of their past liberation:

In the 70’s, it was “You say God loves us, but you won’t include us in the full life of the church.” So we went out of our way to make sure they were included in vestries, altar guilds, delegations, etc. And for a short while they were happy.

In the 80’s, it was “You’ll let us be on vestries and altar guilds, but you won’t let us be priests.” So we began ordaining them as priests. And for a short while they were happy.

In the 90’s, it was “Oh, sure, you’ll let us be priests, but you won’t consecrate us as bishops.” And then Gene Robinson was consecrated.

Now, it’s “Oh, you’ll let us hold your highest office, but you won’t let us get married on the same altar where we lead worship services.” And here we are now in Columbus.

It is not a stretch in the least to say that they will not be happy until the sacrament of Holy Matrimony is modified to include them; until homosexual behavior is viewed through all the church’s lenses as every bit as normal and holy as heterosexual behavior; indeed, until our children are taught in EYC - and earlier - that homosexuality is something they should explore just as readily as they might explore heterosexuality.

To claim otherwise is to ignore completely the history of their gains and the plain statements of their leaders and their rank and file today. For them, it’s all about “claiming” things, being “liberated” from the “oppression” of a church and a society that reads the plain words of the Bible, then has the audacity to call their behavior a sin for which they need to repent.

Other than fringe sects such as the UU’s, the UCC and the MCC, the Episcopal Church has been by far the single most welcoming church in the world to gays and lesbians. I am very proud of the way - at one time - the church framed that welcome; proud in a way I’m not proud of plenty of other denominations.

But that welcome has been taken advantage of, to put it mildly. They are not asking us to welcome fellow sinners into our church in order that they may seek the same transforming grace we seek; instead they are demanding that we put aside our archaic notions of what constitutes Christian sexual morality, and - dammit - get with the GLBT program.

We once had the relationship of mutual trust you speak of, and I believe a lot of the orthodox entered into it under the assumption that we were doing the difficult task of offering the radical inclusion Jesus commands us to offer; sadly, though, gay advocates have since changed the rules - moved the goalposts - such that what we were once told constituted loving acceptance now constitutes unacceptable hatred.

That grace-filled space you speak of existed 25 years ago, but it was betrayed by those for whom it was created. So the question now is not how can we create that space anew, but what do we do with those who have refused it?

[49] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-13-2006 at 06:00 PM • top

Greg,

I believe Jesus himself gave us the answer in Matthew 18:

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

I believe He then shows us throughout the gospels how He treated the pagans and tax collectors. 

No Greg.  The grace-filled space which existed 25 years ago was not betrayed by those for whom it was created.  It was betrayed by those who as bishops and leaders of the church proceeded to betray the teachings of the church and yielded to the requests of the GLBT.  The GLBT could not have brought about the change on their own.

The progressives are correct when they say the GLBT folk should not have to carry the burden of a possible schism.  I believe it is the progressives themselves who should shoulder that burden.

[50] Posted by richardc on 06-13-2006 at 06:28 PM • top

Greg: “In the 70’s it was…(and they got what the wanted), In the 80’s it was…(and they got what they wanted), In the 90’s it was… (and they got what they wanted), And now it’s…”

It’s enough to make you ask, if they get what they want… what’s next?  What is the next thing this “prophetic voice” will demand of your church?

That is, if you don’t wind up just another “fringe sect such as the UUC, UCC, or MCC”?

[51] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 06-13-2006 at 06:28 PM • top

Greg - I appreciate your analysis of ECUSA’s recent history and would say it is irrefutable.  I have, in other places, made your same argument that ECUSA was one of the most welcoming denominations for LGBT people - it was, in fact, a “safe” space for them to seek Christ.  Thus the activists have betrayed even other LGBT Christians by asserting SSUs and ordinations and constantly “moving the goal posts” (I am in a gloom until football season returns, so thanks for that metaphor).

My call for “safety” within the containment of WR is to argue that the goal posts must be anchored again.  This doesn’t mean purging the church of LGBT people (and I don’t hear you arguing that), but it certainly means rejection of SSUs, ordinations and other practices that negate Biblical teaching.

When I speak of being honest with “Baptist friends” and the Global South as far as having GLBT people in our church, I am speaking from where the goal posts were 25 years ago.  I am not about to say, “Purge them from the church” when we don’t purge alcoholics, gossips, greedy materialists and all kinds of other sinners who are manifestly harmful to the body of Christ.  We need to have the grace-filled space, even when it makes us vulnerable…but not, as you correctly argue, when it makes us adopt a program that is not the Gospel.  Matt+‘s blogging from the SCECAC is throwing this into relief in a powerful way - the arguments from the reappraisers are truly extreme.

Thanks for your courteous tone.  I was not going to re-enter this discussion but then I read the Zahl and Anderson comments - whatever flaws might exist in my take on the LGBT position, I certainly named an orthodox reality.

[52] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 06-13-2006 at 06:30 PM • top

richardc,

I didn’t mean to lump all gays in to the group I claim betrayed that space; I thought it was clear in the context of my post, but I can see how it may not be.

You are correct - there is a subset of “progressives” - gay and straight, ordained and lay - who have been doing most of the goalpost-moving.

Speaking of goalpost-moving, Timothy, you say this:

My call for “safety” within the containment of WR is to argue that the goal posts must be anchored again.

I assume you mean they must be moved backward at least some significant distance from where they are now, not simply planted more firmly at their present location; iow, what Minns+ refers to as “rollback.”

[53] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-13-2006 at 06:44 PM • top

Yes.  See my post over at Matt+‘s live blog from SCECAC.  I am appealing to Lambeth 1:10.  This is “rollback” in ECUSA terms; participating in the teaching and practice of present global Anglicanism is another way to look at it.

[54] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 06-13-2006 at 06:48 PM • top

Right then - so what is your prescription for dealing with those who refuse to move the goalposts back, even “an inch”?

[55] Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-13-2006 at 06:52 PM • top

Greg,

I think we’ve gotten our wires crossed.  I do lump most GLBT in ECUSA into the progressive wing.  However, they constitute a minority of the progressive wing, so I really don’t blame the GLBT for moving the posts.  The responsible party are the rest of the progressives who constitute the majority of ECUSA who through their voting, have brought about the changes.  So while the GLBT is a vocal minority, they could not have realized their goals had it not been for the progressives.

When you ask who do we deal with those who refuse to move the goalposts even an inch, I would answer, we are in the process of trying to convince them to adopt WR and reaffirm Lambeth 1.10.

[56] Posted by richardc on 06-13-2006 at 07:07 PM • top

First, glad that the discussion has broadened to note that we are not just talking about SSUs and active homosexual ordination, but the whole range of revision.

I noted in David Anderson’s talk nothing about what “we” are going to do to “them” - our polity never allowed much room (or, maybe, showed much stomach) for disciplinary action and the Wrighter trial and appeals to the Panel of Reference show that the end result will be fudge or worse. 

Anderson’s talk was realistic and there’s not much I can say to improve on it.  Orthodox Anglicans will have to realign with entities in communion with orthodox apostolic succession…a messy process that will vary in detail from situation to situation.

You and I both know that even if GC went with full assent to the requests of WR, a “prophetic” ECUSA group would continue to do its “new thing.”

My personal plans are not something I intend to pour into the hot and cold running blogosphere at this point.

[57] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 06-13-2006 at 07:14 PM • top

ISTM that the problem is not that there are GLBT folk out there who need to be in church and being loved and helped.  It is that there are a group of radical infidels who want to destroy the standards that make a church valid.  Some are GLBT and some are just anarchist, infidels, power grabers, opportunist and arsonist.  We need a new term for them that seperates them from the specific sin they are using to do their work.  What comes next?  As soon as they have exhausted the homosexual problem they will pick some other sin to tout and use as a fire bomb to destroy God’s work.  What label can we use to identify this group that does not limit itself to LGBT.  In Jesus’s day it was the Pharasees, in our day it is the toxic “liberals”  I might be fond of the sin of lynching, but if I came to an Episcopal church for worship and insisted on being allowed to wear my KKK garb I don’t think I would be treated with the “love” they all gush about.

[58] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 06-13-2006 at 08:08 PM • top

Really???

[59] Posted by Tom Dupree, Jr. on 09-09-2007 at 02:58 PM • top

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