BREAKING: +KJS Elected to the Primates Standing Committee (Update)

If I ever needed the evidence that the AC is incorrigibly politically corrupted, this is it. Thank you God for having gotten me out of ECUSA and the AC altogether. Grant that my pastors will never covet membership.

This is a far cry from discipline. Prepare and pray as we wait for more news

I an dumbfounded.

RSB

OK, this does it! If this is true, stick a fork in me, I’m done. This is beyond ridiculous.

the (soon to be)formerly Anglican Snarkster

The Doors keep going through my head

Curious to know why Ruth thinks all this augurs for a tough, conservative covenant. I have asked her.

Looks to me like the skinny lady is singing.

Update from Gledhill:

Here are the other JSC members:

Bishop Schori will represent the Americas.

Mouneer Anis of Egypt, the newly-elected Primate of Jerusalem and the Middle East and treasurer of the Global South, will represent the Middle East, West Asia and Egypt.

Uganda’s Luke Orombi will represent Africa.

Australia’s Phillip Aspinall, who’s been handling the press briefings in Dar es, will represent West Asia.

And our own Barry Morgan, or at least Wales’ Barry Morgan, will represent Europe. Pretty impressive, being elected in absentia.

Glorious news!  A woman on the Standing Committee.  Good for ++Katharine!

Wow.

I’m completely dumbfounded.

How could this be possible?????

Preponderance of liberals. The skinny lady will be singing loudly.

Isn’t this the way.  Placate the orthodox and GS by giving them two spots; keep the liberals in control by giving them three spots.

I’m just shocked that certain primates are still at the table ... just shocked.

I’m with the Snarkster. Hopeless.

Alles ist verloren.

RSB

Are the elections done by regional caucus, or the primates as a whole?

Question” How could ++Orombi serve in such a post?

Perhaps this was the high price bb’s friend spoke of. I wonder if that means the orthodox in ECUSA got alternate primatial oversight? The ‘covenant’ was mentioned, but any covenant coming out of an organization of which she is on the standing committee - well, I’m sorry , I can’t imagine it even being worth the paper it’s written on.

Ruthie is suggesting that that all the events of the last few days, including KJS’s election are a sort of counterpoint to “quite a tough, orthodox doctrinal line in the Anglican Covenant”.  Just because all the other presents have been handed out first it doesn’t mean that yours isn’t underneath the tree!  Mind you she quoted an ‘authoritative source’ which means either Kendall or David Virtue so it might be wishful thinking.

RR

That is my question as well Matt.  Please tell me that the Global South accomplished something of note.  And the Roman Catholics want to develop closer ties with the AC?  The world is turning upside down!

she should not be eligible for such a post regardless of how elected

Glorious news!  A woman on the Standing Committee.

Well Brian, that must be her only qualification. Usually people are not fast track so quickly, three month on the job, then that’s seems the story of her life. Usually the Lord seems to prepare leaders a little longer.

Let’s wait and see. I wonder if this isn’t is a rather clever way of binding TEC into the solution that the Primates have come up with.

I can’t believe Orimbi would have sold out for this pittance.

Hang on for another 57 minutes.

As Pittsburgh Penguins announcer Mike Lange would say: “Ladies and gentlemen, Elvis has . . . just . . . left . . . the building!”  And the Lange-ism for me: I don’t know whether to cry or wind my watch.

Clearly, if Schori has been given the keys to the kingdom (and add up the 3 liberal vs. 2 conservative votes on the SC; she has), then the institution she represents will not be disciplined, and, in fact, will reign victorious and glorious forever and ever within the Anglican Communion.

Thank goodness I haven’t had lunch yet.  It would be tough to keep it down.

the (soon to be)formerly Anglican Snarkster

Remember—you don’t have to leave Anglicanism just to leave PECUSA.

pax,
LP
A non-Episcopal (she’s not my primate) Anglican in the U.S.

Yes, Snarkster, come home. The Continuum has been waiting for you for nearly 30 years.

If this is true, then my worst fears ARE realized.  Maybe the Holy Spirit really is not in charge in the Anglican Communion.

This makes me so sad.  As I wrote last night.  The ABC is likely trying to save the AC the only way he knows how:  seeking a political solution to a theological problem.  It wont work.  Furthermore, it is maddening that the ABC has simply returned to favoring his own personal theological liberalism over what is good for the AC as a whole.

So now my thoughts turn to the break-up of the Communion.  If the Africans split perhaps the Virginia churches and others will have more legal standing to take their properties (legal precedent as I understand it tends to favor congregations in a denominational splits).  If this is true, then I pray that at least some hundreds of congregations will now make the leap in the US.  If they do not, the misery index within the ECUSA will reach fever pitch and the ECUSA will rapidly shrink anyway.

Somehow, Lord, shine a light in this darkness.

The sound you hear is Frank Weston, +Zanzibar of blessed memory, turning over in his grave.

Hosea

Well Brian, that must be her only qualification. Usually people are not fast track so quickly, three month on the job, then that’s seems the story of her life. Usually the Lord seems to prepare leaders a little longer.

Then how do you explain

Mouneer Anis of Egypt, the newly-elected Primate of Jerusalem and the Middle East and treasurer of the Global South, will represent the Middle East, West Asia and Egypt.

who was elected, what, 1 week ago?

If they do elect by area, then Brazil and Canada obviously chose her to represent the Americas

Let’s wait and see. I wonder if this isn’t is a rather clever way of binding TEC into the solution that the primates have come up with.

Right! We’ll overaccept revisionism until they have all the important posts in the ACC, the Primates Meeting and Lambeth!

Then what happens, you ask?

Well, now, uh, Launcelot, Galahad, and I, uh, wait until nightfall, and then leap out of the rabbit, taking the French, uh, the Liberals, by surprise. Not only by surprise, but totally unarmed!

After all, guys, come on, she has soooooo much experience.

BTW, what did Judas get for his thirty pieces of silver?

“My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time.”

Must be something about the Brits.

Texas Hold’em-see my post above.

If this be true then I have only one thing to say Canterbury Anglicanism is Lost, Lost, Lost. I am going to celebrate a Solemn Mass of THANKSIVING that I am outside and I shall never again look back. Talk about going to hell in a handbasket. A heretic on the Primates Standing Committee. How nice.

Now for all you nice orthodox Anglicans still in PESCUS/ECUSA/TEC “RUN” don’t walk for the nearest Continuing Anglican Church, Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church or LCMS but whatever you do GET OUT all is lost. The AC has proven what Pope Leo and XIII said in 1896 its orders are invaild and it is no Church at all. Preach heresy and one gets promoted. Lord, have mercy.

this is absolutely horrible. in the time it took for my miserable dial up connection to load Glendhill’s article, all I could do was hold my head in my hands and call out, “oh God, oh God, oh God.”

i am either going to cry or throw up.

Brian T19;

Her whole life seems fast tracked, much shorter than many others before receiving such honors. I believe it shows in her theology and her administration. 1Tim3 warns of of such and I earnestly believe we’ll see fruits of all fast tracked people (note I’ll say that on anyone).

I’m aghast.

Even if the Covenant is “orthodox,” this doesn’t sound like TEC has been disciplined.  The recent history of TEC is that the leadership will say the right words (sometimes) but their actions say something else.

I am aware of how important this is - be patient. Hold your nerve, don’t panic and wait for the main show. It may be that an appropriate solution has been worked out by the Primates. We’ll know soon enough.

Ah, while I was commenting, the update was posted.  Voting was by region, and the Americas region is heavily revisionist, as we know.

Let’s wait and see. I wonder if this isn’t is a rather clever way of binding TEC into the solution that the primates have come up with.

I think we are seeing what we were naive not to expect - that the archbishop is being true to his own liberalism and his own culture.

I hope all of you also cross-post these comments to Ms. Gledhell’s blog as I posted.  I forgot to copy-paste my comment there into these comments but I hope she will have the integrity (hate to use that now-stained word) to post them.

I’m outta here!

Matt+

Question? How could ++Orombi serve in such a post?

I’m gonna guess: standing up?  Since he said that he can not sit at the table with her, either the SC will have 2 tables OR he’ll stand while she sits OR the orthodox were sold out by their “leaders” once again.  Looks like Nigeria may be your “Babylon 5” - the last, best hope for mankind.

Katherine is right; Driver is incorrect.  Regardless of what the Primates do (with the exception of a parallel province) it will all be empty and fruitless.  We’ll keep waiting for the next gathering, the next meeting, the next something.  I am shocked and sick.

I’ll see what happens by the end of the day.  Even as a woman, I am revolted by heretical idiocy like Ruth Gledhill’s seeing this through the context of the triumph of “women’s rights”.  Maybe Sarah or Jackie would care to weigh in on that; I doubt their opinions are much different from mine on that score. 

Just when you thought this couldn’t get any more “Theatre of the Absurd”....

Let me see—Liturgical or Free Church.  Hmmm.  Probably liturgical.  Time to start reviewing the theology of the RC’s and Antiochian Orthodox….

Even if the Covenant is “orthodox,” this doesn’t sound like TEC has been disciplined.  The recent history of TEC is that the leadership will say the right words (sometimes) but their actions say something else.

And here we are at the heart, what will the words of a covenent mean.  We now how far the AC will stretch/invent the truth to hold that TEC is in compliance with Windsor, what alternate reality will they inhabit to draw TEC as faithful to a covenent.

RSB

I differ with Mr. Naughton on this point. The TEC should not be in a position have her leader elected to this post. She is both a false teacher and committed to non-compliance. Instead she is elevated above her peers.

This is a travesty

Well, Anglican Communion Network, WHAT are you going to do NOW??  Is the light beginning to dawn just a little bit, yet?  How many times does Lucy have to jerk the football away before you finally stop trying to punt? 

Heresy prevails and reigns in the Anglican Communion.  Nothing else needs to be said or acknowledged.  Nothing can diminish this.  Nothing can justify it.  Nothing can mitigate it.  Nothing more can be said.  Truth is black and white.  It is not conditional, relative, contextual, or historical.  It is the same today as always.  This is God’s reminder to all of us that we must rest in Him, and Him alone.  He will provide, not the Anglican Communion.

Follow the money.

To all that believe in what the BIBLE tells us to keep the faith and do not get discouraged for Satan is at work here and God is testing us all to see if we can keep to His teachings or if when the heat of hell gets to hot that we falter. Then main thing to remember is that we as christians need to be loving and caring even for those that walk away. This is the time when we can either stay the course God wants us to be on or turn and go back to Egypt and to be slaves again. I pray and hope that all who see the light will follow it and bring as many not sure with you. May God bless and watch over us all

I am delighted that my Communion at Church of the Messiah voted 99% to depart fellowship with
ECUSA, TEC or whatever they call themselves.

Schism in this matter is in my mind obedience to The Word.  In another post on the ACC Blog I posted the following:

Schism is a reality for all Christians who are in communion with God.  Schism begins with the Scriptural admonition to “come out from among them”  Christians are called tp come out from among them whether the “them” are false teachers within the church or godless worldly men who at enmity with God.

  The natural man by his nature cannot understand the acts and truths of God because those truths and acts are spiritually understood -revealed.  Faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior called me out of my own sinning nature.  He gave me a new nature. A new nature that abhors sin and gladly deals with the struggle to remain faithful -to do the things I should do and not do the things I shouldn’t.

  I have no interest in social,  political, or religious correct diversity or tolerance of any sort that is contrary to the plain meaning of Holy Scripture. I warn the reader here not to think that I am a homophobic male or a racist or some sort Bible thump’n white guy fundamentalist.  To believe such about me would be totally wrong . My ministry in the deep South and the inter-racial marriages in my family stand as witness to the Christian living out of their faith.

By faith I invite all persons to accept Jesus as Saviour –to turn away from sinning and enter the very kingdom of God wherein they have fellowship with God the Father and experience righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit. By the power,  love and strength of God’s presence in my life,  I confess my sins to God (directly) and do not ask God to accept my sinning.  Those things that I once thought and did by my old nature I brought and continue to carry to the cross where the blood of Jesus cleanses my unrighteousness. . Jesus is the One who mediates between me and God.  Praise the Lord.

To the adulterer, the false teacher of faith, the practitioners of sexual sin, the thief, the blasphemer, to all who are sinners without faith, I say believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall become a new creature. Trust in the Lord.  Do not place your faith in man but earnestly and prayerfully seek to follow in fellowship with those who follow Christ.

  Be careful not to worship the organizational religious structures of men.  Worship instead with those who seek with their whole hearts to be disciples of Christ.  Worship with those who attest to the Grace of God in salvation. Do not fill your eyes with the trappings of those who like to walk around in fine vestments to be seen by men as something when they are really nothing. Also do not judge those who wear vestment in worship service for they too may follow Jesus Christ and love Him with all their hearts.  Follow them even as they follow Christ.  But judge man and priest by the reflection of Christ in their lives and their faithful lifting up of the Word of God.

Cast your lot with believers who truly trust in Christ for their own salvation and teach that there is salvation in no other.

My family and I worship in a communion of an Anglican tradition. Our priests are men who teach not their own words but admonish everyone to trust in Christ alone. They are under threat by false teachers of the main church and those bishops who have become worthless salt fit only to be cast down and trampled upon -Jesus teaches that such is the case.

I could continue but I am weary of the wolves, false teachers and snakes who have worked their way into the Body of Christ to scatter the sheep and teach false doctrines and false empty love to unchanged sinners who give them their ears. To those readers who are lost it would be nothing more than foolishness.  But to those readers who are saved/being saved through faith in Jesus, it would read as truth.  With the latter I seek fellowship and communion.  With the former I seek schism even as I bare witness to them of the saving power and divine love of Jesus Christ.

To false teacher and godless bishops I say flee the wrath that is coming and is upon you.  Turn away from your wicked ways and trust in Christ to forgive your sins and save you. To the faithful minister of the Word I say may God our Father sustain you and keep you from all sin.  I praise the Lord that the Spirit fills your life and your ministry to the very Word of God,  of Jesus Christ to this lost and godless generation.

Men worthy of honor and the prayers of the faithful include:
. Marty O’Rourke,  George Stockhowe,  Martin Minns,  John W. Yates II,  Jim Brown and those members of vestries who honor the Word above the traditions of men.  There are many, many others.  I know personally the witness of those I mention.  They have not chose schism for the sake of schism but for the sake of Christ who commands them to walk apart in faith and loyalty to Jesus Christ -very God and the Word of life who calls all men to repent and turn away from sin. 

Tom Sweeney, the ArkMaker

To Katharine and all her like minded friends I say that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and no man comes to the Father except through Him.  I am not ashamed nor embarrassed by that gospel for it is the power of God for salvation available to all mankind. I don’t care about the gender of folks that God gives to the Body of Christ as teachers,  evangelist,  as elders or whatever.  I do care about their witness to the Word of God and what they say to the world and the church..  To you Katharine I say repent . . . . . .come to Christ that you may receive His Spirit and preach the Word in power.  I love you with prayers for you to believe.

Wow! To be elevated this quickly and to be able to initiate a TEC-wide jihad against all of the orthodox, she must have pictures.

The irony is just too much: A week ago there was every reason to believe KJS would not be seated. Now, she could very well be put in charge of the seating arrangements.

All is not lost: http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com

Any chance this press conference will be televized or radio broacasted?

This is a travesty alright; and a disgusting one to boot!

Who’s fooling who?  How could us pew-potatoes have been getting such bad intelligence - is the old Fed. intellegence network part of the episcopalian/anglican network?  We have been told this is the end for the ‘apostates’ and now this.  Anyone got a clue?

GB, that is “kick”, not “punt”. How many times…before you finally stop trying to kick? The distinction is important, for they have been able to punt very effectively all on their own.

Jesus wept.

RE: “Even as a woman, I am revolted by heretical idiocy like Ruth Gledhill’s seeing this through the context of the triumph of “women’s rights”.  Maybe Sarah or Jackie would care to weigh in on that; I doubt their opinions are much different from mine on that score.”

Jen, yes I’m revolted too.  Unsurprising that Brian The Resident Liberal only cares about her gender—but I don’t look at gender, as the prejudiced do, but at the ideas that the person incarnates.

Brian, in a few comments, is stereotypically everything he claims that the conservatives are—biased by gender, and narrowly only able to understand the phrase “at table” meaning “to sit at a long table in a room”.  It’s funny that revisionists accuse conservatives of being “hidebound” to the text, yet are unable to understand so basic and simple a Christian idea as “sit at table”.

So here is the deal:

We’re to love one another…I think we got the message!

No more blame, no more shame it’s time for the loving thy neighbor as thyself part to be practiced and not simply preached.

I’ll try, God willing.

And who had even heard of the Primates Standing Cttee before this post?  Don’t get your knickers in twist ... yet.  Remember the ill-considered knee-jerk letter of +Maryland.  Let’s not fall into the same trap.

When the Spirit of the Lord departs from a place all sorts of evil ensues.  Protect the children.

Glorious news!  A woman on the Standing Committee.

Wow, Brian, glorious indeed - her qualification is that she’s a WOMAN - wowee! Thanks - NOT -for the affirmation that my gender is too incompetent to actually be qualified for anything on any other basis. Cool, I can now be a nuclear physicist because I have a womb.

So I’m curious - for those who still advocating waiting ‘a little longer’ (57 minutes . . . until Lambeth ‘08 . . . for the Anglican Covenant to be ratified . . . etc. etc.) is it REALLY worth the wait?  Is THIS what we’ve been waiting patiently for - for PB Schori to be in the driver’s seat on the Primate’s standing committee? 

So much energy is getting expended waiting, talking, planning, hoping, and waiting some more - meanwhile the Gospel needs to be shared over pizza or coffee, someone needs to organize that bible study at work, middle schoolers need an adult to teach them what didn’t hear at confirmation class.  Isn’t it time move on, unencumbered by heresy?

Leonardo Ricardo, you are so right.

That’s why we on this blog work only against the heretical ideas and those people who incarnate them.  I am glad to see that you are back to gracious words after your vicious and hateful words against homosexual persons yesterday in another thread.

Sarah

Red herring on the sex issue.

As for “at the table” I think I have adequately exposed ++Orombi’s words for the lie that they were.  Of course he was speaking metaphorically, however, now he will be in a group of 5 with her as a fellow Primate????  Even someone as hidebound as yourself can see that he must be “at the table” in any sense of that term in order to be a member of the Standing Committee.

O Lord, by Your hand save me from such men, from men of this world whose reward is in this life…. - Psalm 17:14

It no longer matters what “we” get, this is too high a price to pay.  And it’s not the orthodox in NA that will be paying it, it will be the men and women in Africa, if the GS primates accepted this compromise.

I am praying that for the sake of the Christians in Africa that the Primates have the courage to leave the AC, even though it means they will have to go it alone.  I’m afraid that the persecutions they experience from Muslims will increase if they continue their alliance with Cantebury and ECUSA.  Plus I’m afraid that it will cause some of the people to wonder about their faith and leave the church.

We should have had the courage to go it alone, we should have left long ago.  Dear Lord, please forgive us if we have, in our selfish need for comfort and property, caused our brothers in Africa to compromise with the ungodly leaders that are in the Anglican Communion.  Please, Father, remind them, that your Son, our Lord, told us that He came not to bring peace but division.  Please, Father, send your Holy Spirit to encourage and strengthen our brothers that they may always choose You first, even if that means that we must rely only on You to help us.

Let me see—Liturgical or Free Church.  Hmmm.  Probably liturgical.  Time to start reviewing the theology of the RC’s and Antiochian Orthodox….

Remember, there’s always Anglicanism. PECUSA left it… you don’t have to when leaving PECUSA.

There’s the faithful Anglicanism of the Continuing church—or, if you still want to hold up being in the Canterbury “Anglican Communion” as a sina qua non, the AMiA and GS parishes.

Just make sure, if leaving, you do it with due prayer, consideration and conviction… not in a soon-passing emotional overreaction to one news story.

Personally, I think leaving the only option—and the Continuing churches the best place for Anglicans to go—but that’s only true if, when you leave, you really mean it… and aren’t about to saltify yourself by looking back: let the dead bury their own dead.

pax,
LP

Folks, there seems to be quite a misunderstanding here.  The election of ++Schori to the Primates’ Standing Committee should have been expected, once she was elected Presiding Bishop.  Each region elects its own delegate to the Committee.   That means that for the Americas, only ++Venables would have opposed her, and he’s only one vote.  The same fact explains Orombi’s election.    Again, this was not a collective act, but simply represents regional factions. 

If the SC members are elected by region (and I think that’s how it’s donee) then you had Canada, Brazil & ECUSA against West Indies and Southern Cone.  The first three are deeply revisionist and the last two are strongly orthodox.

This is not the end of the world.  This is yet another revisionist thumb in the eye of the traditional Anglicanism.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

KJS on the AC Standing Committee?!

Now that’s what I call overacceptance!

Any truth to the rumor that if the Anglican - Roman Catholic Union comes to pass that ++KJS has graciously agreed to serve as the 2nd female pope?

Seriously, however technical the position selection is, it just boggles the imagination that any of the Faithful will accept this nonsense.  It will be very interesting in the next few days or weeks to see what decisions are made by those who constitute the majority, in point of numbers, of the AC.

I am not so upset that liberals control the committee which I know so little about and thus assume is relatively powerless, but the fact that KJS is eligible to be on the committee would seem to indicate that discipline isn’t forthcoming…and that is too high a price to pay.

Everyone seems to be forgetting ++Akinola.  He may still take his 22 million heterosexual Anglicans with him.  He apparently missed yesterday sue to a back injury, but maybe he and +Martyn are drawing up plans for a new Church altogether.

Ruth Gledhill just lost another reader, and no, I WILL NOT post any response to her blog, she doesn’t deserve my time.

<i>Kyrie eleison
Christe eleison,
Kyrie eleison.<i>

Given that she was seated at the table, the regional way this committee is elected made her a shoe in. It doesn’t say anything about the final outcome of the Primates gathering. Be patient!

O well, what did you expect - she was elected by two like minded pro-homoerotic members.

Now we will be treated to a new series of harangues for unity above Biblical integrity and vilified for refusing to abandon “the faith once delivered unto the saints.” Christ have mercy!

driver8 may be right, along with babyblue.  It seems possible that if the Covenant is strict, this committee would have to become an instrument of implementing it.  If Schori thought she could not do that, she would have to resign and be off of it. 

Look, TEC is all over the map.  It literally, as a whole, has no idea what it believes.  If its leader is put in a position of leading a body, the beliefs of which are defined by the Covenant, she would have to self-elect to remove TEC from it or proceed to endorse and enforce the Covenant in TEC.  And, given her duplicity and theological ineptitude, she might very well remain on the committee and do precisely what she has previously claimed, or even thinks, she would never do.

More will be known by the end of the day.  Its been a very long road so wait until its completely over.

Uh folks - this is actually not news.  She was elected a while back by her brother primates.  I’m assuming that the Primate of the Southern Cone would not have concurred but he’d have had nobody to vote for other than himself.  In what circumstance could the news have been any different than it is?

Perhaps the comic John Safran will reopen his Australian TV series, “John Safran vs. God” and do a segment on +KJS taking over the Anglican Communion. If you are unfamiliar with Safran you owe yourself a look.  Video Clips are available on http://www.craigmelville.com.  Melville has been the director of many of Safran’s works.  The segment on the website where John, a Jew,  travels to US and meets with the Grand Dragon of the KKK and tries to join is quite remarkable.

“am just wondering whether the TEC report, the election of Bishop Schori onto the standing committee and the apparent acquiesence of so many of the Global South Primates in what has been going on so far might perhaps indicate quite a tough, orthodox doctrinal line in the Anglican Covenant.

Funny thing, Ruth Gledhill thinking the “Covenant” will have some “theology” in it… Maybe I’ve lost my reading and comprehension ability in my old age, but from what I’ve seen, and heard, there’s not much doctrine, just organizational, and agreement stuff.

Or have I read ++Gomez wrong? 

The thing is, it seemed drawing up the “covenant” seemed easy, which would be true if its just “organizational”, and agreement not to “rattle cages”, but “Doctrinal” would seem to be quite another matter, or at least I would think so..

HELP someone,
Grannie Gloria

Apologies typed too quickly - should be ‘shoo in’.

This is bad news if true, but the worst part is this: it indicates that she is—and remains—a primate in good standing.  I think you can read between the lines here and foretell one outcome of the meetings already: there is no diminished status for TEC in the AC.  Otherwise, her election would be ruled out of order; the region would have been required to choose another primate to represent it.  Am I missing something here?

Watch.  This is a bear hug.

I don’t believe in organized religion.  I’m an Episcopalian!

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

The two minute warning!

Any updates on whether press conference will be broadcast anywhere?
I am checking CNN and BBC regularly. Nothing.

And the Anglican Communion releases a statement . . . . on Anglican-Catholic relations.

I am in the camp that never seriously believed TEC was going to be disciplined, the best I hope to see is that proper and necessary shelter be given to the dissenters in North America.  In the best of all possible worlds that would mean calling off the lawsuits, although I was never that optimistic.  The rest can work itself out.  Does anyone seriously believe it would be possibly to unravel decades of revisionist labors in less than one week?  If we are not stood up for in some way by our allies, I have more important work to do, probably in LCMS.

This is going to be a mixed scorecard by the end of day… not a shut-out.  +Minns (allegedly) has been saying “victory at a price” ... the question remains open, “How large a victory and how great a price?”

An aside:  Don’t kid yourselves… The “clear teachings” of the Magisterium aside, RC politics make this look like child’s play.  Can’t comment on the E. Orthodox, other than reading +Ware’s comments here and there.

Same as the last few days:  don’t get too despairing OR elated over any one bit of news.  Wait for the big picture to emerge.  It is very close.

As much as many would like to see the PB/TEC cast into the outer darkness, the temporal process—and the genuine spiritual obligations—may not have yet reached that point.  Wait for the details.

The question of “at what price?” goes both ways…

If the ABC and GS allowed her to pull a con job, shame on them.  If they reset the boundaries of right belief and practice and offered her a place within them (while providing safe haven as previously discussed), then that *may* be a different story… leaving her to answer the same question to the LBGT crowd at home… not to mention possibly dropping the neutron bomb on the HOB about SSB’s and Lambeth.  (“Yeah, guys, you really have to stop this, which I personally support and all that, but isn’t it really COOL I got to be on this committee and all?  Give me a big YOU-GO-GIRL!!”)

I cannot believe she has changed her mind or heart or intentions.  She still has the TEC majority and dead men’s money.  The GS has the global majority and the willingness to sacrifice for the Gospel as received.

Wait a few more hours to see what we do or do not have (more or less than a week ago), and then we all will have to answer the question of choices and sacrifices.

“Round one” means the famous old “end of the beginning” ...

By day’s end, the battlefield will have changed.  Adapt and regroup.  Change units if you wish… don’t think for a minute the fight will go away.

In a few hours we should know far better whether the enterprise is lost or strengthened…

It’s a roller coaster.  Still any possibility of a two-primate solution?

rwkachur;
LCMS would welcome you—they accepted me, and have already put my time, talents, and treasure to good use!
-Jeff

+Minns (allegedly) has been saying “victory at a price” ... the question remains open, “How large a victory and how great a price?” <blockquote> blockquote

I believe sir, that that is what our British friends called the Battle of Bunker Hill.  Many more victories like this and there will be no church.

RSB

Stick a fork in me too.

Regardless of whether KJS’s inclusion in the standing committee makes any practical difference, the symbolism is appalling. It’s a bit like the message sent by including Sudan, Cuba, Russia, and Saudia Arabia in the UN Human Rights Committee.

More broadly, what has possessed this meeting? I had taken to heart Kendall’s admonition not to expect much visible progress. But I had not expected visible regress, whether in the subgroup whitewash or in granting KJS this symbolic legitimation.

Sodbuster,

The LCMS synod, colleges, and seminaries are not in agreement with Schori at all.  I am not sure what you are talking about. 

Gman

I’ve talked with folks on the ground in Dar throughout. What they’ve said from the outset is that a major principality is dug in, affecting not only the West but the entire Global scene.

j+

Stick a fork in me too.

Regardless of whether KJS’s inclusion in the standing committee makes any practical difference, the symbolism is appalling. It’s a bit like the message sent by including Sudan, Cuba, Russia, and Saudia Arabia in the UN Human Rights Committee.

More broadly, what has possessed this meeting? I had taken to heart Kendall’s admonition not to expect much visible progress. But I had not expected visible regress, whether in the subgroup whitewash or in granting KJS this symbolic legitimation.

Perhaps there’s a good explanation for it all. Perhaps it will all work out in the end. But how more of this sort of mixed message can one ask ordinary Christians to swallow?

Jerry Kramer+ Please explaine “dug in”.

“A major principality is dug in, affecting not only the West but the entire Global scene”

I believe it. Something that Big from a Someone that Big would make sense of what we’re seeing. If it’s a bardic, bearded Someone, then it’s consistent with my conclusion that that Someone’s overriding priority is to avoid a major schism in the Church of England.

As I posted on another thread, I have never seen this as just an Anglican problem: rather, we are witnessing the deterioration of Christianity in Western Culture. The major denominations may have run their course. It may soon be time for the first to become last and the last first.

Rolin Bruno

sodbuster;
Are you sure you’re not confusing ELCA with LCMS?  LCMS doesn’t mince words when it comes to theology—if it’s not allowed in Scripture, it isn’t allowed at all.  No female pastors, no blessing of same-sex unions, etc. 
-Jeff

Masters of Deception.  Protect the children.

This IS bad news, but the Church has weathered far worse. Throughout the ages, the Church has fought heresy, and this liberal confusion today is no worse that arianism, or docetism, or reconstructionism.
Every Sunday around the world, the God who made the Universe manages to fit Himself into a space the size of a breadcrumb—He is surely up to dealing with this present dilemma as well, all in His own good time.

Gman is right:  the synodical institutions of the LCMS (seminaries, etc.) are not “liberal” in any way that Episcopalians would recognize as liberal.  That is not to say that the LCMS does not have its problems, and that there are not “factions”; but no group within the LCMS shares the views of Schori and the liberals who run ECUSA.

Perhaps Sodbuster is confusing the LCMS with another Lutheran synod, the larger and much more liberal ELCA.

As a cradle Episcopalian, now LCMS Lutheran, I still hold out hope that an orthodox realignment in Anglicanism will ultimately occur.  But I can certainly understand those Episcopalians who feel that they cannot wait and must separate themselves from ECUSA.  Those for whom Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not an option could do worse than to come to the LCMS.  It is a traditional, Biblically-orthodox, liturgical, and sacramentally-centered denomination with much in common with the Anglicanism in which I was raised.

Sodbuster,
Some of the college presidents are somewhat liberal (for LCMS), but the two seminaries are rock solid conservative.  And no one at any level is claiming homosexuality is not a sin.

This is the issue: “Regardless of whether KJS’s inclusion in the standing committee makes any practical difference, the symbolism is appalling.” Too true. Rowan should have regated the results in some way: either saying should could not sit at the meetings until other things resolved, or whatever. He can act unilaterally in some ways, especially in statements of approval/disproval. This symbolism thing works both ways. Even if Rowan doesn’t have the power to reverse certain things, he can symbolically negate them by his statements of disapproval. The strangle-hold on the obvious, though, is that he didn’t.

This all sounds like some people have been seriously misled over the past several months about the depth and breadth of concern about the status of TEC. Duncan, Iker, Akinola and others made a lot of noise accompanied by a lot of threats, but the clarion call of the Christian Gospel seems to have trumped them.
It’s OK!  We can live together. There is plenty of room in TEC for Duncan, et. al..  All they need to sacrifice is their spiritual triumphalism.

CJ:
Well said.  He is in even this process.  We have Grace, let us not forget it, please.

Blessings, Andy

Fr. Tom,

This may be a difficult day for people at SF. I will ask that you be especially mindful of that

Dear friends, what do you think it looked like on Oct. 16, 1555? That was probably in the mind when Thomas Cramner felt like giving up on his convictions. What about Pope Alexander VI? There was a charming fellow, such a far cry from respect that even the world gives John Paul II. There have been many dark days in the life of those who love Jesus., we need to remember the Lord works in these times and whatever the news somehow in the long term the Lord brings His will about.

“It’s OK!  We can live together. There is plenty of room in TEC for Duncan, et. al..  All they need to sacrifice is their spiritual triumphalism.”  No, Fr. Tom, once again you misconstrue the issues entirely.  It would be their principles they would sacrifice.  And at this point, if TEC does not want to allow for principled dissent, with alternative oversight structures for those who firmly believe the church has seriously and grievously erred, then there ought to be consequences.  If the Primates do not provide them, then the ACN et al. will have to.  And sadly, it may mean leaving to you and your band of triumphalists to play church alone.

TBWSF/“spiritual triumphalism”. God have mercy on your soul. You are in real spiritual danger if you think the “real” Christian Gospel is at odds with holy behavior and standards.

TBWSF, you grow very tiresome. What you mean is that all they need to do is sacrifice their FAITH. Small sacrifice for many it seems. For others, not so.

If it’s a bardic, bearded Someone, then it’s consistent with my conclusion that that Someone’s overriding priority is to avoid a major schism in the Church of England

Uh yeah…...  The communion will squabble and fall out from time to time.  That he knows.  Nobody’s going to change that.  What remains to be seen is how far these squabbles can be used by dissenters in the large western churches.  Any sort of two-tiered system that the bardic beareded one presides over to ‘ease’ (read ‘magnify’) the disputes in America will have its utility in England.  So yes - he’s working to prevent a split in the C of E (among others).  However it is yet to be seen that he’s managed to avoid a two tiered system.  We may hear about it presently.

“Fr. Tom,

This may be a difficult day for people at SF. I will ask that you be especially mindful of that”
Posted by Matt Kennedy on 02-19-2007 at 10:37 AM [link]

Oh, no surprise here.  The fat lady hasn’t sung yet, but it’s no great shock that vultures always come to pick at what they believe is a carcass. 

The world still waits…

I bolted for AMiA about a year ago thinking that this gives distance from ECUSA and still keeps in the AC.  This morning, I’m not so sure that I want to be part of the AC.  Kolini has been rock solid to this point, but it is not clear where we go from here.  Is his rhetoric all for naught?  If the AC as a body will not take a stand against ECUSA, will he personally and the rest of AMiA?  What about CANA and the Southern Cone?  The implications of Tanzania are far reaching.  We all have a lot of decisions to make if this plays out like it seems it is going to right now.
I’ll stay tuned to the communique, but it is hard to see how anything positive or substanative will come from it now.

sodbuster;
You may be confusing ELCA universities with LCMS universities.  Here in Texas, Texas Lutheran University is ELCA…very liberal…while Concordia University is LCMS…and very orthodox. 
-Jeff

My daughter made the following comment about this event.

We are in for dark days.  Interesting how more turmoil is beginning right at the beginning of the 40 days/nights.

This was my reply:
We are headed into dark days, but remember the AC is not the Church and there are far more orthodox Christians, worldwide, there are over a billion RC’s, plus Eastern Orthodox and yes even Baptists, PCA’s and little outposts like St. _______.  There is reason for hope and trust.  If the AC is riddled with cancer, as it appears to be, then it needs to be pruned.  Maybe that is what God is doing.  It may not happen in my lifetime or even your lifetime, but eventually the AC will diminish and fade away.

Rolin called it, this isn’t just an Anglican, it’s about what is our witness as Christians to the world.  We are in for tough times, folks, and I don’t just mean orthodox Anglicans still in ECUSA.

Sodbuster,

To what colleges are you referring?  The Concordia colleges are not in the hands of those that agree with the leadership of the Episcopal church as far as I know.  There are many Lutheran colleges that certainly are, but not the LCMS colleges.

Gman

Maybe Abp. Kolini was right after all: “Are you ecusa or are you Network?

Wimps. Weasles.  Part Time Patriots. Take me out Coach!! They’re hitting with fists!!  What in the HELL are you all bitching about?  ALL YOU KNOW is Missus Schori has gotten elected to something that means almost nothing, from a province that no one else could be elected from. Where are all the brave commenters of the last 2 years—running to Rome and Orthodoxy that’s where. I am ashamed of the lot of you. You are leaving us to muck out the stables. Figures. This thing IS NOT OVER.  A few courageous people can make life miserable for that wretched woman and her sycophants. Sounds like “a few” is what we will have left. It’s entirely possible someone, +Duncan, +Minns,++Akinola,  etc have played a really big chip. What do they (we) get in retlurn. You all are so busy hiding in the Confessional booth you won’t hear the real news this after noon.

TBWSF, you should repent for that arrogant shot.  These folks are firmly convicted and most have been gracious even when being critical of you.  I might remind you that this meeting has not adjourned.  I also believe that if this goes more the way I expect and the consequences for ECUSA are substantial but different than expected that SF folks should be very humble.

Like everyone else here, I’m anxiously awaiting the communiqué (or impaired communiqué, which ever is more appropriate), and preparing, rather liike Frodo and Sam, to press on without hope, at least without hope in the ecclesiastical structures of man and woman.  Although I am a member of a large ACN parish (with internal challenges of its own), my wife and I visited an AG mega-church in the area yesterday, just to have a break from the uncertainty.  I’ve been preparing for the probability that we will leave our parish for someplace else, and with Mme. Schori now in such a prominent seat of power, consider it very possible that we may end up outside the Anglican communion entirely.  I’m beginning to think all over again about the meaning of the “evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail” phenomenon of which I and so many of my friends and colleagues have been a part.  I’m just beginning to entertain the notion that we were called to Canterbury not as a final destination, but so we could be called out from it when the time was right.  What I mean is this:  perhaps we should all be asking ourselves what we have learned from our pilgrimage, in what ways our spiritual formation has been strengthened and deepened by the deeper connection to liturgy, to prayer, and to the cloud of witnesses reaching down through history to the present day.  Many of us found things of value in Anglicanism that we could not find in the low churches of our youth;  perhaps it is time to take those gifts back to the church traditions we left.  This thinking has most certainly been behind Robert Webber’s vision of an “ancient/future church,” and I’ve seen glimpses of how the vision can transform churches outside our tradition, my mother’s increasingly liturgical Evangelical Covenant (formerly Baptist) congregation in Michigan being one example.       

This is all just the beginning of a line of thinking that will be open to refinement and/or correction, and certainly open to being informed by what finally transpires in Dar es Salaam.  For what it is worth, I thought I should share it.

cross-posted to Ruth Gledhell’s blog:
“While I find myself in fundamental disagreement with her on some, although not all, aspects of the doctrine she preaches, as a woman, I have no choice but to salute her.”

Beware to whom you raise your glass in toast to. St. Paul said that if anyone, or himself, or even an angel of light came along and preached a different Gospel than the one received, let that one be accursed, and repeated the condemnation for unmistakable solemn emphasis. As for those who contend that Jude lies when he exhorts us to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints”, see Luke 24: 25-27, 32, 44-47 and know that Jesus Christ Himself delivered it to the apostles, without interference or re-interpretation by man.

KJS has steadfastly refused to affirm the divinity of Jesus (which He unambigously claimed for Himself throughout John’s Gospel), calling Him “a path to the Divine”, not the Divine Himself, and hemming and hawing for 2 painful minutes to a US reporter with Nat. Public Radio, stated that, contrary to Jesus’ words “No one comes to the Father except through Me” and “I am the Good Shepherd…all others who came were thieves and robbers.”, that she instead believes that all other faiths are equally valid ways to God. We might as well close the church doors and pack it in with Islam if we believe as she does.

A note to all:

Life goes on, with or without an Anglican Communion. Please remain calm and dignified. Anyone crossing the line - no matter which they side they come from - will dealt with pretty quickly over the next day or two.

Matt, Sarah and I are consumed with lots of administrative and technical details right now, so every time we have to come out form the back room to referee, we’re going to shoot first and ask questions later. If you value your posting privileges, please remember this.

RE: “It’s OK!  We can live together. There is plenty of room in TEC for Duncan, et. al..  All they need to sacrifice is their spiritual triumphalism.”

Yawn.  Tom Woodward, speaking to and for himself again.  ; > )

I posted too hastily. I do not ask that Bishop Duncan sacrifice his faith. We all need to sacrifice our spiritual triumphalism - all of us. The call to humility is important.

What I meant to convey is my belief that there is room in our church for us all. We have dealt with really contentious issues long before any of us were born and we will face more in the future.

I pray for a generosity of spirit throughout—and gratitude that we care enough about our faith to stand up for it.

I am especially grateful to Matthew for his kind and gentle words at times when they were needed.
Tom Woodward

While not an Anglican,my heart is with you all.
My prayer for you all comes from Colossians 1:3-14.
Grace and Peace
Paddy

Du page,

I understand and appreciate your comments, but do you think the gifts you talk about really will be appreciated in the low church traditions that you have left?  Perhaps in the covenant church you have mentioned that has a tradition of liturgy and confessional theology, but the low church I left is dominiated by praise and worship, anti-tradition tradition, seeker friendly services, left behind theology, etc.  I for one will not be going back. 

Gman

Might I remind Tom and others that the Communique hasn’t been released yet?  Let’s face it: there are two possibilities:  Either 1) the Global South primates have completely and utterly betrayed us, in which case the Anglican Communion is (and was) a worthless institution that won’t stand.  It won’t stand in North America except as a thoroughly secularized boutique church, but it won’t stand in Africa either; or 2) something else could be happening.
Now, how likely do you REALLY think possibility #1 is?  Think of it, people!  Yes, there has been troubling tidbits coming in, but we have only heard tidbits.  We are seeing a little corner of the painting and making judgements about the whole thing.
Kendall states that the communique has been delayed due to lack of agreement.  That sounds to me like a fight.  I for one am not going to let Tom Woodward’s foolish triumphalism (by the way Tom, I think that in your post you erroneously wrote “spiritual triumphalism” when you mean “Christian Faith”) affect me, nor will I write off the Anglican Communion yet.  I may yet write it off.  But let’s at least wait to actually hear the results.
We do not know what KJS’s appointment might mean.  We don’t have the whole context.  We just don’t know.  It was never a realistic hope that TEC would be expelled.  If TEC wasn’t expelled, KJS would be eligible for stuff like this.  We don’t know what price might have had to be paid to keep the GS at the negotiating table.  We don’t know what KJS might have had to agree to.  We don’t know what sort of discipline may be down the pike.  We just don’t know.  We don’t know even if the Global South primates will stay in the Communion.
Let’s all take a deep breath and pray.  And remember, that no matter what happens at this Primate’s meeting, we should not trust human strength.
Let me look back to last week’s lectionary:

Jeremiah 17:5-8
This is what the LORD says:
“Cursed are those who put their trust in mere humans, who rely on human strength and turn their hearts away from the LORD.  They are like stunted shrubs in the desert, with no hope for the future.
They will live in the barren wilderness, in an uninhabited salty land.

“But blessed are those who trust in the LORD and have made the LORD their hope and confidence.  They are like trees planted along a riverbank, with roots that reach deep into the water.  Such trees are not bothered by the heat or worried by long months of drought.
Their leaves stay green, and they never stop producing fruit.

Remember the Anglican Communion is a human institution.

“All they need to sacrifice is their spiritual triumphalism”

That is much akin to what persecutors of Christians have said through the ages. Just burn a little incense. Just pour out a little libation. Just mouth the words the pointy-hat asks for. Just sign this paper. Just worship Christ in the official church, not in this flea-bitten house church.

Faithful Christians have, despite their personal humility, often been called proud, stiff-necked, and disrespectful of legitimate authority.

PS: Why does “triumphalist” get applied only to the orthodox? Don’t revisionists embrace a sort of secular triumphalism?

“I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe”—- Martin Luther, 1521

February 19th is the Anglican Communion’s September 11th.  The Episcopal Church’s new Pilate just crashed herself into the World Anglican Center.

I see I missed the ever uplifiting and inspiring presence of that most excellent and revered parfait gentle Knight THE SEER OF SANTA FE!! (Que applause) We can always count on you Tom+ for civil discourse. Not.

Don’t be so politically correct. Pilate wasn’t the bad guy.

I have to confess that I have a whole list of incendiary and rude comments bottled up inside me right now. In deference to Greg, I am going to keep them inside for the present. I may yet make them-and all admonitions be damned-but if I do, no one will have to “ban” me because I will have made them on the way out the door for the last time. God help us all.

the (soon to be) formerly Anglican Snarkster

Thank you Tom.

BREAKING: Katharine Jefferts Schori has just been named Supreme Head of the Anglican Communion.  Absolute and total authority pertaining to all things Anglican worldwide has been given to her.  Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams will carry her crozier and luggage as she travels around the globe presiding over property litigations.

BREAKING:  Katharine Jefferts Schori’s face and apparel turned dazzling white and a glorious light radiated from her.  She could be seen talking with Judas Iscariot and former Bishop James Pike about her plans for absorbing all world religions into one in which she would be Sovreign.

BREAKING:  Brittany Spears has shaved her head.

Albion, great question.  Let me know if you find out anything.