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Greg Griffith
David Hicks: Our Passions and the Promiscuous Church
Wednesday, August 9, 2006 • 12:48 pm
"It is essential for Christians to ask: are homosexuals well served by those who wink at the sin of sodomy or make allowances for the so-called homosexual lifestyle? Apparently, many Christians believe they are. One might start by asking why so many Christians believe this. Is it to show love? Then should a Christian not show love as Christ did, not by ignoring or affirming the sinful behavior, but by forgiving it and demanding a change of life and holiness, even at the great cost of taking up the cross?"

Our Passions and the Promiscuous Church

by David V. Hicks

I

The only time I ever heard the now Bishop Gene Robinson speak was at a Vespers service at St. Paul’s School in the fall of 1992. His topic appeared to be God’s gift of love, a phrase he often repeated in his talk, but his point conflated love with sex, and he urged the girls and boys of St. Paul’s to share their sexual gifts “either with someone of the same sex or someone of the opposite sex.” He said this more than once, and I jotted the phrase down in the book of prayers at my desk. No mention of marriage or even of commitment. He did close his talk, however, with a disarming suggestion that God would be well pleased if His gifts were shared safely. “Please use a condom.”

I approached Fr. Robinson after the service, and in the presence of our School Chaplain I expressed strong disapproval of his message and told him that he would not again be welcome in our pulpit as long as I remained Rector at the School. Not only was he, from my traditional perspective, preaching sin, but because of the nature of his audience, he was encouraging our students to break the rules of the School and the laws of the State of New Hampshire, where I believe it is still illegal for an eighteen year old to have sex with a fourteen year old. Fortunately for us both, my Rectorship lasted less than four years, and I was not in New Hampshire to question his elevation or, in the event, to suffer the fate of being out of Communion with my Bishop.

At the time, I knew nothing of Mr. Robinson’s sexual preferences, and it was not his oblique references to homosexuality that alarmed me so much as his implication that God allows, nay, smiles upon whatever we choose to do in the name of love. There was a malevolently yet seductively twisted logic in his argument. I tried to listen with the ears of one of my students, and what I heard not only gave wings to my passions and license to my libido, but it made me think less of myself for failing to be sexually active, for failing to use my God-given sexual gifts. It tickled my adolescent ears and undercut all the repressive preachments of my parents and the school authorities, as I’m sure it was meant to do. My liberation was at hand!

This happened more than a decade ago. It is now clear to me that what I was then hearing was the case for homosexuality. It is not, after all, a special case, but a general one attacking not only the traditional norms for sexual morality, but the Church’s ancient teachings on the sinful nature of man and the passions (desires, emotions, feelings) that cloud his intellect and darken his soul. I am grateful to Mr. Robinson for helping me make the connection between what sometimes seems the special pleading for a homosexual exemption from the old taboos against same-sex intimacies and the general decline in moral behavior and our society’s contempt for the concept of sin.

This case boils down to saying, “Because I have a strong, innate desire to do this, I should have the right to do it, and it must be all right to do it.” The premise is interesting only in that it emphasizes the strength and innateness of the desire, but upon consideration one is bound to ask: what desire is not strong and innate in the person afflicted with it? The conclusions are, of course, non-sequiturs, as well as contrary to a huge body of wisdom literature on the subject teaching us to beware of strong, innate desires. They are the very things likely to overwhelm our right reason and sound inhibitions.

The first conclusion appeals to the State, the second to the Church, and in both, the case for homosexuality is being made stridently and effectively these days. Not too long ago, State and Church were united in condemning homosexual behavior, but both are now in various stages of repudiating the old taboos and acceding to the demands of those who view any criticism of homosexual behavior as insensitive, discriminatory, and unfair. To oppose the case for homosexuality is to court personal attacks and labeling as a “homophobe” or “fundamentalist” while condemning any kind of public career, unless one aspires to be a conservative talk-show host or the mayor of a very small southern town. For this reason – and no doubt for fear of being associated with those who hate or ridicule homosexuals – the case often goes unchallenged. This silence, I have found, seldom means agreement, although it can be read that way, and it creates an atmosphere of hypocrisy and distrust that enlightens no one and hurts everyone, whatever his view on the subject.

In the Northeastern school world of the Nineties, this reticence seemed to me particularly out of place and hypocritical. Homosexuality, like vivisection and the wearing of pelts, only more so, was a kind of cause celebre, and many schools were in the process of recruiting practicing homosexuals for their faculties and of establishing gay-lesbian support groups for faculty and students. Students were encouraged to “come out,” to affirm their sexual orientation, not to be ashamed. Why not talk about it? On one occasion a couple teachers, concerned that our school was not keeping pace with this enlightenment, approached me to ask if I would be willing to host a conference at the School on the topic. I said that I would be happy to do so, but only on the condition that the speakers not be limited to those who were advocates and apologists for homosexual behavior. That was the last I heard of the idea. No one seemed interested in a truly open and informed discussion of the issues involved. Nor among the many schools that have accepted the case for homosexuality am I aware of any that did so after an exhaustive and public debate on all sides of the issue. Typically, either out of personal conviction or under pressure from some members of the faculty, a headmaster persuades the board, if it needs persuading, that this form of “discrimination” must end. And it does. The case is never openly debated.

II

Part of our problem may be that we cannot seem to find a way to disagree with one another on this topic in a civil manner. In some ways, this is understandable, perhaps even inevitable. Where is the middle ground? One cannot circumscribe a homosexual act any more than one can be half pregnant. For one side, the argument against homosexual behavior is a personal attack, an assault on behavior identified not only with the will, but with the self. What is at stake is not a “what” (a habit like gambling or a way of life like farming), but a “who” (the irreducible me). For the other side, the argument is often no less visceral. The heterosexual’s physical aversion to same-sex intimacies rivals the homosexual’s attraction. And this aversion sometimes enflames the rhetoric of the historical arguments against homosexual behavior in the West, that it is unhealthy or unwholesome (Plato speaking for many of the pagan writers); that it is unnatural (St. Paul writing to the Romans and citing the natural law arguments of the Stoics rather than the fierce proscriptions of the Jews); and that it is sinful (the consensus of the major religions).

Another part of the problem is that most of us have homosexual friends about whom we care deeply. We do not wish to give offense, nor is it our role, if we are Christian, to be judging the sins of others. That is, after all, the responsibility of the Church: to remind us of our sinfulness, to help us call to mind and name and confess our sins so that we can receive forgiveness and healing and “newness of life.”

Consequently, we only speak about these things with those who agree with us, either for fear of giving offense or of appearing as “one of them,” or because we don’t know what to say. The gulf between us on this question seems too great. Yet the silence is making the gulf even greater and contributing to the illusion that most people agree with us or that all the clever people are on one side of this divide. This is certainly the impression the media gives.

Yet no scientific discoveries, psychological studies, or genetic breakthroughs have vitiated the religious argument against homosexual acts. A woman’s proven genetic predisposition to lie, cheat, steal, or have sex with other women does not alter the religious argument. If anything, it strengthens it, giving to the Christian doctrine of Original Sin, for example, the force of a scientific proof. We humans emerge from the womb flawed. Our bent to sin is written in our genes.

We do not argue, after all, that kleptomaniacs should be allowed to steal or that pathological liars be allowed to lie with impunity. But these extreme cases are not nearly as telling as the more ordinary ones. Let each man examine himself and name his own sinful inclinations: vanity, greed, gluttony, lust, pride, envy, sloth. We are prone to all of these every day, usually yielding to them without the slightest pricks of conscience. Everyone’s self-indulgence is legendary. Repentance is the categorical Christian response to these sins, whether known or unknown, acknowledged or more often than not, unacknowledged by our de-sensitized consciences. In his diary the Russian priest Alexander Elchaninov made this acute observation: “Insensitivity, petrifaction, deadness of soul – these are the result of long-established sins which have not been confessed in time. The soul is greatly eased if we immediately confess the sin we have just committed, while we still feel its pang. Confession, if postponed, leads to insensibility.”

It is through as simple a thing as repetition that men and women are corrupted and learn first to tolerate sin, then to ignore it, then to deny it, then to love it, finally to laugh at the very notion of sin and the idea of a just and righteous God. Take any sinful act, the single commission of which would repulse most people. Lying, hating, cheating, stealing, fornicating, blaspheming. It does not matter. All are acts so often repeated in our society that those who habitually perform them, and many who do not, no longer regard them as sinful. What is worse, these acts and others like them are multiplied and amplified by being performed repeatedly on stage and screen, romanticized in music and reported in the media. This repetition becomes a kind of corporate transgression seeping into the souls of millions. This constant repetition of sins, witnessed and imagined, slowly and relentlessly erases our consciousness of sin. Those who become murderers have already murdered hundreds in their imaginations before committing their first crime. Our private virtual worlds are steeped in sin, making the speaking and acting out of the imagination of our hearts not only inevitable, but as natural as drinking water.

What must follow is that the Scriptures naming and judging sin become irrelevant, indeed, risible. Arguments based on moral absolutes derived from religion are either put in the mouths of ridiculous imposters and self-righteous prigs to be laughed at, or they are subverted by sophistical and self-serving rationalizations. I heard on the news not long ago about some men accused of raping twelve year old boys at a choir school. The school defended itself and the men involved by claiming, among other things, that the boys had consented to these acts. This only seems logical in a society that would permit anything as long as the participants consent to it. We can thank Princeton’s prominent ethicist Peter Singer for pointing out that once the mythic prohibitions of irrational religion are removed, nothing stands between consenting people and bestiality, incest, sadomasochism, orgies, and other violations of traditional morality.

This is what our freedoms and rights now mean to us, what our Courts and newspapers defend, what our legal system is designed to uphold. Not the moral absolutes of atavistic religion, but the right of each to pursue the passions that make him happy. We are far from calling these repeated behaviors sinful, and in spite of a national epidemic of aborted innocents, death-dealing sexually transmitted diseases, children without fathers, despondent lives caught in the grip of relentless passions, and tragic self-slaughter, we cannot even bring ourselves to call these behaviors, as the pagans did, unhealthy, unwholesome, or unnatural. We are living far down on a slippery slope and sliding fast. With every repetition, we accelerate our fall, as the prophets foretold.

III

It is a common observation that the identification of sex with the self is one of the legacies of the Sixties and of radical feminism. We are schooled to think of ourselves as essentially sexual animals. Being from Venus or Mars – or lost in erotic space – determines not only our social roles and psychological make-up, but our very souls, if we have souls. Take away our sexuality, and we are nothing. So many books have been written (and expurgated – I once sat through a prep school faculty meeting dedicated to the removal of sexist references in Homer) and so many courses taught to make this point that there is now no subject, however banal or sublime, that cannot be turned into a metaphor for eroticism or for the battle between the sexes. Sex is the one thing most dangerous, that is, the one thing that purports to explain everything. It is the most puissant god of our times, and his ancient name is Eros.

Christianity rescued the ancient world from this all-devouring deity, and in a defenseless secular State, it may yet be our best protection against the passions he unleashes with his fiery darts. But this depends on the integrity of institutions like the Church that have long histories of channeling the restless energies of this god.

Our passions always seem right to us. Debby Boone crooned our cultural mantra when she sang, “It can’t be wrong when it feels so right.” Whether anger, jealousy, envy, or lust, our passions dominate the intellect and force reason to do their bidding. Without some greater end in view than our own desires, reason will serve our desires and persuade us of their rightness. “There is a way that seems right to a person, but its end is the way to death.” (Proverbs xiv.12) Yet how easy to forget, when judging the folly, repulsiveness, or injustice of another’s passion, that we behave in the same way when in the grip of our passions, and we are judged by others just as we judge them.

Historically, we humans have responded to our passions in three ways. We might call these responses Nietzschean, Stoic and Christian, if we understand the terms to be merely illustrative, not definitive. Terms like Romantic, Classical and Religious might serve as well. We can, like Nietzsche and his many modern disciples, identify our passions with the self and embrace them in an amoral, godless, Hobbesian, existential universe. The will to power is the passion par excellence hidden in every motive and shaping every fate. Whatever feels right can’t be wrong for me, and whatever thwarts my will to achieve my desires, those things that feel right to me, must be opposed.

Or we can play the Stoic and starve the passions with thought exercise and seek to dominate them with reason. This response also affirms the self, but it identifies the Platonic self with the intellect and portrays man as being in perpetual combat with his passions. Otherwise, as Hobbes said, he is in perpetual combat with others. In his journal the Stoic Emperor Marcus Aurelius admonishes himself, “Blot out imagination; restrain impulse; stifle desire; give your reason the upper hand.”

Or we can reject the self altogether and seek to make passion subject to a telos, or greater end. Now for Christians, this telos is God, the Holy Trinity accessed through Jesus Christ, who showed the Christian how to live with his passions by making his own Passion subject to the will of His and our Father, even to the point of death on a cross. “Jesus told his disciples, ‘If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.’” (Matthew xvi.24-25)

In Christian terms, to say I am a homosexual is equivalent to saying I am tempted to sin. This is a category in which every Christian finds himself. In the sense in which President Kennedy once said “I am a Berliner,” every Christian can say, “I am a homosexual.” We are all fighting for our political freedoms, although not all of us are Germans. We are all tempted to sin, although not in the same ways. Moreover, the case for homosexuality is the advocacy we all want for our secret and not so secret desires. It is this that makes the case so seductive and so difficult to argue against, although not difficult to refute. Each of us lives in his own glass house of desire, and this makes throwing stones both difficult and hazardous. Yet if the unequivocal teachings of the Sacred Scriptures and of Holy Tradition can be de-constructed, contextualized, and de-mythologized in such a way as to erase the sin of sodomy, so can every teaching of the Faith, and we might as well build idols to ourselves or to Eros and be done with it.

IV

It is essential for Christians to ask: are homosexuals well served by those who wink at the sin of sodomy or make allowances for the so-called homosexual lifestyle? Apparently, many Christians believe they are. One might start by asking why so many Christians believe this. Is it to show love? Then should a Christian not show love as Christ did, not by ignoring or affirming the sinful behavior, but by forgiving it and demanding a change of life and holiness, even at the great cost of taking up the cross?

Is it to widen the door of the fold, to bring more homosexuals into the Church? No one can gainsay this intention. It is probably a fair criticism of the American church that it is too often a club for the conventionally good rather than a sanctuary for sinners, but the strategy of pretending that homosexual behavior is not sinful merely compounds this criticism by enlarging the definition of what is conventionally good. At what cost and to what avail is this concession being made? If there is no sin and no need for repentance, who needs Christ and His bride, the Church, anyway?

Is it because of the understandable pain many feel for their gay children, their lesbian friends and loved ones, and those from whom the gift of conjugal love seems to be withheld? It is often harder to bear the suffering of others than our own. Yet there are a thousand worse tragedies than desiring same-sex intimacies, many involving no element of human choice whatsoever: the child with cerebral palsy, the father with leukemia, the baby born blind, the daughter struck by a drunk driver and confined to a wheel chair. The list is endless. Why is homosexuality the condition, if indeed it is that, that calls into question God’s mercy and His mysterious purposes?

Again from Elchaninov’s diary, “I am continually pondering the text: ‘If ye were of the world, the world would love his own’ (John xv.19). Our sufferings are the sign that we belong to Christ; and the greater they are, the more evident it is that we are not ‘of the world’. Why did all the saints, following the example of Christ Himself, suffer so much? Contact with the world, being plunged into the midst of things, gives pain to the followers of Christ; only the children of this world suffer no pain. This is a kind of unerring chemical reaction.”

The efficacy of Christianity for the homosexual is not in its acceptance of his behavior, which in psychological terminology is merely enabling, but in its challenge to his behavior and in its presentation, one might say, of an alternative lifestyle. This is precisely the value of the Christian faith and its challenge to all of us sinners.

Nor are homosexuals alone in struggling with this challenge. None of us wishes to give up his lifestyle. We all want to indulge our passions and imagine that God understands and perhaps even cheers us on as we amass our riches, ignore the poor, drink away our hurts, indulge our craving for things, get even with our enemies, scratch whatever itches us, and feel morally superior to those who do not attend our church or vote the way we do or give free rein to desires we don’t have. We imagine, if we give it a second thought at all, that we are acceptable to God just as we are and that we can enjoy the riches of our Father’s house and the comfort of His love without, like the Prodigal, making the long journey home. Yet nothing could be more at odds with the sense of Scripture or the genius of “mere Christianity.”

Have we, after all, lost the capacity of the early Christians to confess our sins publicly and to weep together over them, encouraging one another in holy and righteous living and celebrating together not our hedonistic lifestyles, but our Lord’s compassion and forgiveness?

V

Does the plaintive plea that “God made me this way” add anything to the case for same-sex intimacies? It is hard to see how, except by making God responsible for my sins. If the homosexual can blame God for his desire to be physically intimate with others of his sex, why cannot the glutton blame God for her food cravings or the thief for his impulse to steal? This is the modern version, I suppose, of “the Devil made me do it,” and it is the very blasphemy that the doctrines of the Fall and Original Sin help Christians to avoid. Christians who make this argument for homosexuality are really excusing every form of libidinous behavior and rendering the entire biblical narrative either nonsensical, which not a few in the Academy would contend anyway, or a cruel trick. God not only sells alcohol to the Indians. He forces them to drink.

Is this then where the Reformation peters out? There is a logical, perhaps inevitable progression in the reaction against a corrupt Church’s simony, legalism, and abuse of its power to bind on earth, to Luther’s unilateral assertion of faith alone, to Calvin’s stunning rejection of free will, to the long era of sudden salvation and easy grace, to the theology of anything goes. All of these developments possess the unintended psychological appeal of removing responsibility for holiness and sin from the individual, either by making holiness and sin irrelevant to faith or by making the demands of the one and the shame of the other conveniently disappear. Is it not entirely predictable that in a secular and increasingly anti-Christian society, where for millions of our fellow citizens confession is no longer a means of forgiveness and spiritual healing, that the sense of sin must itself be made to go away? No sin; no guilt. And the promiscuous churches that bow to this pressure and preach this strange creed are gradually emptying. Nor is this surprising. No need for Christ’s bloody cross and cup either.

Should men and women be at liberty to engage in same-sex acts? Of course. They are free, both existentially and politically, to succumb to this passion as to many, many others. Our freedom to choose between affirming the self or denying it to follow Christ is, in Christian terms, the essence of personhood and the point of existence, and we have the witness (martyrdom) of a legion of saints – men and women of all races, classes, cultures, times, and sexual orientations – that this is so.

This is not about preventing homosexuals from sinning either. We all have that right and exercise it regularly. Our concern should not be their sins, but our own. This is, however, about preserving the Church’s witness in a fallen world, about giving hope to those who, like ourselves, are mired in sin, hope that there is a place of shelter from the storm of passions raining down on us, hope that God’s kingdom is, as our Lord never tired of saying, “at hand,” hope that the Lord our Creator – not our sexuality, not our will to power, not our genetic code – is at the root of our being, and He stands at the door of our hearts knocking.

Every child is a child of God, created in the divine image, meant to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Every child is a son of perdition, fallen from grace, needing the redemption that God offers in His Son Jesus. On this mystery the Church is founded; on this paradox the Church founders.

When he spoke to the rising generation at St. Paul’s School, Bishop Robinson was not merely dismissing the teachings of his church’s sacred texts and traditions on the question of homosexuality, he was dismissing everything that stands between us and our heart’s desire. Without Christ (or the Torah or Koran for that matter), it all becomes subjective and contextual. The Holy Grail will probably be discovered before philosophers come up with a rational ground for morality. Meanwhile, without religious faith, there is only the State to decide what is right and wrong and to hold in check the passions misruling us. George Washington, by no means the most religious of men, saw this clearly when in his last message to the Congress he described religious faith as the indispensable public bulwark against the flood of private passions threatening the Republic. But when the bishops of the church are themselves manning the dikes with picks and shovels, what hope have we weak and sinful ones, living below sea level in what the pagan Sallust called this “sink of iniquity?”

David V. Hicks lives and works in South Florida. He and his brother Scot are the authors of a new translation of Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations, published by Scribner as The Emperor's Handbook.

Comments:

If the comments made by David in the above article are true,particularly the ones about the school, and I don’t question the veracity of the statement, then Gene boy should be hung and quartered and neutered for making such a blasphemous statement, and I hope this report gets WIDE publicity in the media to show the man (if that is what he is) is reprehensible and totally unworthy of the office he holds and ought to be defrocked publicly.
Brian

[1] Posted by Brian on 08-09-2006 at 05:56 PM • top

Simply brilliant, top to bottom.  And only when I got to the endnote did I make the connection of this David Hicks with the author of The Emperor’s Handbook, which is without doubt the very best and most readable version of Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations.  Where was this piece published, and when?  If it hasn’t been in print, it ought to be, perhaps in Touchstone.

Thanks, Greg, for posting this.

[2] Posted by VaAnglican on 08-09-2006 at 06:30 PM • top

I can’t wait till it gets more press,espousing apostasy and aberrational sexual behaviour outside of marriage to minors,the Communion is gonna have a field day with that.

[3] Posted by paddy on 08-09-2006 at 07:16 PM • top

Can I read this from the pulpit on Sunday and pitch my own sermon?  I know it doesn’t have much of a connection to “I am the bread of life,” but do you think I will be excused?  Or just run out on a rail?

In my seminary (that which must not be named), they were teaching (with the blank slate students eyes glazed and mouths gaping, swallowing it all hook line and sinker), that Irenaeus taught that we were not in Original Sin, but that we were immature and needed maturing.

Augustine was thrown out as a classic example of a proof-texter dealing with his own guilt about sex-addiction, and Luther was given the boot with him.  One student said, “I just wish Augustine hadn’t plagued the church with guilt for centuries with the unbiblical doctrine of Original Sin,” and the zombies nodded in the affirmative.

This leads to the kind of thinking that the brilliant Mr. Hicks is critiquing so ably.  Well done, sir, well done.

[4] Posted by Christoferos on 08-09-2006 at 08:02 PM • top

Christoferos:  I read a treatise once which called same-sex attractions “affective immaturity”.  In that case, perhaps, there is a definite lack of maturity.  Psycho-social development stops at a particular time in early childhood.  I have had a number of friends and acquaintances who experienced and acted on same-sex attractions, and I noted that each and everyone, regardless of age, evinced immature behavior in one or more areas of their lives.  That does not, however, make any sort of case for denying original sin.  As a cradle Missouri Synod Lutheran, I am well aware of original sin and its implications.  How sad whatever seminary (cemetary?) you attended disregarded the valuable inspiration both Augustine and Luther provide for classical Anglicanism.

[5] Posted by El Jefe on 08-09-2006 at 08:54 PM • top

Greg,

This is without any question one of the three or four finest essays on the topic written since GC03—and that includes a lot of writing!

Many thanks for posting it.

[6] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-09-2006 at 09:17 PM • top

David Hicks makes a compelling case. Thanks, Greg, for posting this.

[7] Posted by Gulfstream on 08-09-2006 at 09:24 PM • top

Brian, I seriously doubt the language you used was intended literally.  However, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from the use of violent metaphors on the SF site.  I agree that VGR’s comments were reprehensible. 
Most of what we’ve read on this crisis has been from theologians and clerics.  I am deeply grateful for the perspective of a professional educator (school headmaster).

[8] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 08-09-2006 at 09:41 PM • top

Paul Little relates that when he had a campus ministry, one night he was teaching a fraternity of football players about the Gospel.  When he finished he invited the men to receive Christ.  When there was no response, he asked them what part did they not believe.  One of the guys replied that they believed it all and understood it.  Little asked then why not receive Christ?  One of them said, “because it will interfer with our sex life!” In the garden Satan first denegratd the Word of God--"Yea, hath God said...” then appealed to the senses and last offered the ability to be as God and decide what would be good or evil.  We all like to get to be God and do our own thing.  This is idolotry.  Then we excuse and propagate this evil.  The only answer is repentance and submission to the Lordship of Christ.  Every thing else leads to death.

[9] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-09-2006 at 10:29 PM • top

Brian:  Actually, the old punishment was to be hanged, drawn, and quartered.  The prisoner was strangled to unconsciousness, then revived, and his intestines were removed(drawn out) while he was still alive, and then shown to him.  Then he was cut in parts, his head placed on a pike in a public place, and the other quarters distributed in different places.  Often,as a matter of mercy, the executioner would make sure the prisoner was dead before drawing and quartering.  There is a graphic depiction of this being done to conspirators against the Queen in the film “Elizabeth”.  Heretics were usually burned at the stake.

[10] Posted by El Jefe on 08-09-2006 at 10:31 PM • top

Dear Jill,
My use of such language was that I could not find enough adjectives to express the horror and disgust I felt when I read the first paragraph. In Australia talking about h & q is an expression of judgement for actions. I have no doubt VGR will have that for passing on such blasphemy to children.
My apologies if I have offended you, but this was the expression of my dismay of this action.
Brian

[11] Posted by Brian on 08-09-2006 at 10:55 PM • top

The anecdote about VGR’s preaching at the school vespers is indeed shocking, but remember the brief furor at GC03 about the “youth ministry” web site OutRight, which Dr Radner discussed shortly afterwards in his open letter to his bishop:

... While few doubt the literal deniability of Robinson’s involvement in the web-site of OutRight, you all seem to have missed the main point, one that is crystal clear to many young people and their parents: that is, that sexual “confusion” is not something to be dealt with in a manner of encouragement and experimentation, something that OutRight’s philosophy, shared by Robinson and apparently affirmed by the House of Bishops, promotes. These are deeply dangerous waters, poorly understood, and the advocacy of the adult “mentoring” pursued by this so-called “ministry” is something that few responsible adults would advise as anything but harmful to young teenagers. That the whole Convention of the Episcopal Church should find this unproblematic as a paraded “qualification” for the episcopacy is astonishing and, for many, repugnant.

... and remember: a) the “Q” in GLBTQ is “questioning”—and sexual identity is principally a topic for adolescents; b) the shouted slogan at Gay Pride parades all over the country in the ‘90s was “Recruit, recruit, recruit!”

Did anyone have any doubt, ever, really, what this was (and is) all about?

[12] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-09-2006 at 10:59 PM • top

I must echo all the above thanks to David Hicks for writing this and Greg Griffith for posting it, as well as the hopes expressed that it will find a wide readership.  Didn’t we need to know this some years ago!  John Kerry is an alum of the school, and so is FTG if I’m not mistaken.
Craig’s reminder about the issue of the ‘youth ministry’ website at GC03 time is also worthwhile, and wasn’t it VOL that broke that story? - which was then quashed awfully fast.

[13] Posted by TACit on 08-10-2006 at 02:05 AM • top

Gregg,

Excellent post, thanks for sharing it.

It calls to mind the Apostle Pauls exhortation in 1Cor 10:13 ... “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

The attraction and desire for sexual relations with members of the same sex is simply a “temptation” that is “common to man”. While it is not a temptation that I struggle with there are certainly others that I do struggle with on a daily basis. What matters the most is how I respond to those temptations. The most powerful part of this verse that encourages me daily is that God provides a “way of escape”.

In my walk with Christ I would hope that those who I am walking with in the church would love me enough to call me to repentance for those times that I have succumbed to temptations and have actually sinned. Only then, through true repentance can I obtain foregiveness and receive God’s grace and mercy to continue my walk with Him. In humility I am called to do the same for those who are struggling with their particular temptations.

Regards,
Conrad

[14] Posted by Conrad on 08-10-2006 at 07:09 AM • top

Greg, great find.  Thank you for posting this.

I have one little quibble, which I cannot resist.

I’m afraid that I do not agree that “There is a logical, perhaps inevitable progression in the reaction against a corrupt Church’s simony, legalism, and abuse of its power to bind on earth, to Luther’s unilateral assertion of faith alone, to Calvin’s stunning rejection of free will, to the long era of sudden salvation and easy grace, to the theology of anything goes.”

I think it is the Protestant emphasis on salvation by grace, through faith, and its emphasis on the corruption of the human will until it is *made regenerate* by Christ that allows us all to recognize that we are simply unable, of our own power, to conquer sin in our lives.

To say it a touch stronger—only when we recognize that we are powerless over our sin, do we sink our whole weight onto Christ.  The doctrine of the “lost will” of man is central to sanctification in a Christian’s life.

In short, we all need the 12-step program regarding our corrupt desires, and the first step is to admit our powerlessness over our sin, and throw ourselves on the mercies of God, every day.

That is my lone quibble in a sea of splendorous words and thoughts by David Hicks.

What an article!

[15] Posted by Sarah Hey on 08-10-2006 at 07:10 AM • top

Conrad,
And so say all of us....aptly put, so true, so true for all of us, and I would say you have spoken for all of us.
In all this discussion let us keep this in the forfront of our thinking and expression.Except for the Grace of God, there go I.
Brian

[16] Posted by Brian on 08-10-2006 at 07:45 AM • top

Greg,
Thanks for posting this.  I knew VGR was off the wall, but never thought it would be SO far beyond the pale.  Totally amazing.  Well, maybe not totally.

[17] Posted by Mark D on 08-10-2006 at 08:12 AM • top

Great article.  This speech is not new however and comments regarding the speech were all over T-19 several years back.  One of you researchers might want to look for comments made by Joanne Sampson (?) which were very interesting to read.  In addition there was an interesting post about an Asheville NC Church which had been moved to very liberal side of the isle. 

For those of you who think we are overreacting when talking about protecting our children from TEC, I hope that you see where we’re coming from.  I also hope that you see that the argument that I’m in an orthodox parish therefore this doesn’t affect me is pretty weak and somewhat selfish.

[18] Posted by Lee Parker on 08-10-2006 at 09:52 AM • top

Wow, and I mean Wow, a tour-de-force.

[19] Posted by CStanford on 08-10-2006 at 11:33 AM • top

Great article. St. Paul’s would have been a lot better off in subsequent years had that gentlemen stayed on gaurd.

But the real story here may be Debbie Boone. She was such a squeaky clean singer, was she asking a rhetorical question or an affirmative statement? I have never before heard her name mentioned as a marker for the sexual revolution.

[20] Posted by Going Home on 08-10-2006 at 12:00 PM • top

Lee,

I can’t find the speech at T19—do you by any chance have a link or the “p=” number for it?

Thanks.

[21] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-10-2006 at 12:02 PM • top

Craig, I don’t believe the entire talk was posted.  For excerpts and comments I had to go to a white paper file to get some references.  Try 11/14/03 comments and Search for Robinson.  Also interesting comments 1/28/04 all day.

[22] Posted by Lee Parker on 08-10-2006 at 12:46 PM • top

I know this is off-topic, but I have raised this issue before.  For Jill, and others like her, what is the problem with the use of “violent” metaphors?  To plead offensive, feigned or otherwise is at best, utter nonsense or at its worst, obfuscation.  That has been my observation on these blogs and I am sticking with my assessment.

If one is so easily offended by violent metaphors then it would be best if they were very selective in reading the psalms, the prophets, OT history.  Come to think of it they definitely should avoid the Book of Revelations, certain passages of Paul’s and.....come to think of it a few sayings of Jesus.

When I became a deliberate apostate in ways during the so-called zenith of the 1960’s.  Of course, I was in the midst of the counter-culture dishonoring my parents, defying authority and into that whole sex, drugs and rock’n roll way of life.  Since the majority of the Christian message was relatively unilateral on these matters, God could not be a part of my chosen lifestyle.  I employed all of the rationalizations, no need to detail them.  My shock is that I’m hearing those some rationalizations from people wearing backwards collars and pointy hats.

When I was still in throws of “liberalism” of all sorts but beginning my journey back to God, I decided that only the NT was “reliable” and only certain parts of it.  It was impossible, so I thought, that the violent, vengeful God of the OT was not the same loving God of the NT.  Over time I found myself gradually accepting more and more of the OT but surely not all was to be considered the Word of God.

Like most of us who are being converted daily to the Lordship of Christ, I came to understand that it wasn’t the Bible that was changing, but me.  After studying history and many other things I have gotten to the point that I believe that God meant what He said through Holy Writ even the parts that our modern “sensibilities” stumble over. 

Frankly, I believe that God meant what He told the Israelites to do when he gave them the land of Canaan.  (So do Orthodox Jews) And, Jill, I mean this most literally, in unfortunate that Vicki Gene was not drawn and quartered at the time he made those remarks, or even earlier.  I’ll bet you beans to navy credits that sooner or later it will be revealed that VGR assisted some young boy in sharing his sexual gifts.

[23] Posted by Gayle on 08-10-2006 at 01:04 PM • top

Great post Gayle and there are many like us.  PS its not you changing, its your heart.

[24] Posted by Lee Parker on 08-10-2006 at 01:10 PM • top

A truly great piece of work that lays out the essence of the Gospel message of sin and repentence.  Why is this so hard for ECUSA to understand?  When Paul urges us to become slaves to righteousness—it’s not to punish us but to make us truly free.

Thanks, David, for writing so brilliantly.

[25] Posted by hanks on 08-10-2006 at 03:03 PM • top

It’s a fair question, Gayle.  I believe Brian was simply using a figure of speech.  I’ve used comparable figures of speech in moments of intense emotion, like saying to one of my children, If you do that again, I’m going to kill you.  I’m not proud of that confession.  I can’t envision Jesus saying the same thing had He been a father.
The phrase ‘drawn & quartered’ is graphic.  As Hicks explained, repetition numbs us to the sensibility of sin.  Does the repeated use of violent language numb us to acts of violence?  I think it can be contributory, though probably not as strongly contributory as the visual images of media.
I made the judgment call because I defend VGR against violence, be it verbal or physical.  I stand by my original judgment. 
Although I condemn VGR’s comments because they violate God’s word and His clearly intended will for us, I don’t presume to judge VGR’s immortal soul.  I’ll leave that to God.

[26] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 08-10-2006 at 08:49 PM • top

May I add that VGR is already condemned by God by His Word, surely this is so..He said these acts are an abomination to Him..You or I can’t water it down .
Brian

[27] Posted by Brian on 08-10-2006 at 09:08 PM • top

I should have added, the way out is repentance and this VGR refuses to do, rather he glories in it.
Brian

[28] Posted by Brian on 08-10-2006 at 09:10 PM • top

As a first timer for this site, let me be honest up front.  I was directed here from a liberal site which I treasure.

My main reason for showing up here is that I welcome dialogue (writing—responding—listening—being listened to).

I find myself in agreement with much of what David wrote—Jesus never just winked at sin but called for repentence.  I have found no one on any of the liberal sites who would disagree with that statement.  We’re all struggling with something as David pointed out.  No one gets ahead spiritually by simply caving in to sin much less by embracing it. 

Habitual sin can make us lose all sensitivity to it.  People who habitually tell lies damage their moral compasses to the point where north south east west—any direction will do if it serves the liars purpose.  Greed, pride, gluttony—certainly these sins have not disqualified men and women from serving as bishops—even if the bishop is an overgrown, money grubbing stuffed (purple) shirt—my point is that he/she is a practicing sinner—as are most of us—perhaps even loving themselves while knowing that spiritually they do not have it all together.

Now, I happen do disagree with one of David’s assumptions and that is that homosexuality is a sin.  But ... before we go down that road, suppose that I did agree, just for the sake of discussion—why get so exercised about someone who is honestly openly homosexual—and leave the corpulent, money grubbing, prideful and self righteous stuffed (purple) shirt alone?

Also, I wonder why David lays such a trip on Gene from remarks made many years ago—as if these few remarks serve to evaluate a persons life.  I know that depending on when the spotlight was on me I could either be described as great Christian or as scumbucket sinner.  In fairness to all, to summarize a person based on a small sliver of his life’s work seems biased and unjust.

To Brian—Gene is no exception as we are all condemned by God by His Word—perhaps the words that trip you up are “judge not that ye be not judged” and “forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us”—or the Word of God is a two edged sword (that is it cuts both ways).

[29] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-10-2006 at 09:53 PM • top

Almost Live--- want to know how to be totally alive?

[30] Posted by Christoferos on 08-10-2006 at 09:58 PM • top

Brian and Gayle et al, we need to always be careful to be scriptural in all our actions.  Now drawing and quartering are not permited in the Bible.  Using th Old Testament as our guide then stoning is the proper form.  In the New Testament we are informend by the Lord that the old milstone around the neck is the way to go, and at the end of the Bible, swimming in the burning lake of fire is the scriptural form that will be used.  I know how frustrated the actions of VGR and his supporters makes us all boil, but we need to spend our time warning them of the fate that awaits anyone who refuses to repent, especially for leaders and those who teach others to do their sin, especially children.  So let us stick by the Biblical termonology.

[31] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-10-2006 at 10:41 PM • top

To almost alive priest,
I am a live priest.. apparently you did not read my last note about repentance, which VGR is not apt to do, this makes the difference between him/me/you..He glorifies sin, sorry I won’t have it.
Fr Brian

[32] Posted by Brian on 08-10-2006 at 10:52 PM • top

Almost Live said “why get so exercised about someone who is honestly openly homosexual—and leave the corpulent, money grubbing, prideful and self righteous stuffed (purple) shirt alone?”

Well, Almost Live, one difference is that the Church is not being asked to bless the sins that have caused the “corpulent, money grubbing, prideful or self righteous(ness).” I am assuming those individuals to whom you refer have not said that God thinks it is okay for them to be that way or that they do not need to repent.  Now if you know of some (purple) shirts who have now declared any of these actions as blessed, I would hope you would do your Christian duty and remind them that they are separating themselves from Christ by their actions. 

As to why David would bring up old words - where has Mr.Robinson said he repented of these words or denied them?  Did he do so somewhere and we have not seen it?  Could you show us where he has found a more excellent way and forgot to publish it?

[33] Posted by Jackie on 08-10-2006 at 11:05 PM • top

Hi, Almost Live Priest,

Thanks for dropping by the blog.

Re: “why get so exercised about someone who is honestly openly homosexual—and leave the corpulent, money grubbing, prideful and self righteous stuffed (purple) shirt alone?”

Well . . . because we’re electing a leader, who claims that his sinful behavior is in reality blessed and holy behavior.

Furthermore, he advocates developing rites for those who practice such behavior.

To me, if we elect a leader who is obese or greedy or proud—and he revels in any of those things, calling it a holy and blessed behavior, rather than confessing the sin and repenting and working hard to grow and change . . . and then advocates a “blessing for gluttony” or a “rite for solemnizing greed” . . . I think we would all be just as upset.

[34] Posted by Sarah Hey on 08-10-2006 at 11:06 PM • top

Well said, Brian.

These folks who think that they can revise the faith handed down are simply dolts. Accept it and remain Christian, or go somewhere and found a new religion based on whatever. I have no problem with you founding a new religion, just don’t try to steal mine.

[35] Posted by Gulfstream on 08-10-2006 at 11:07 PM • top

Thanks to all for the responses.  I suppose if you agree with Gulfstream you now know that I’m a “dolt”—not sure if I should feel threatened or not ... moving along ...

Is it possible that we (and I do mean we) due to our own cultural acceptance of greed, corpulence, and pride have become insensitive to these sins?  The bishops who openly practice these sins have no need to advocate for them, they are already accepted—these are sins that one can practice openly and without shame and no one will say the first word (cast the first stone)—not even a “go and sin no more.” Have we become blind to these sins?  Or is it that we struggle with these every day and make little headway so we say, “I know I’m proud and I’d like to quit but humility escapes me --I’ll probably have to privately make my peace with the way I am and count on God’s love—Jesus’ sacrifice—to get me through.” Our church culture has truly made peace with these blantant sins and no one seems to give a rip.  It seems that some sins are OK. 

The ceremonies to ordain and consecrate the prideful, corpulent, and greedy are already in place—the “discernment process” clearly does not discern these sins to be of much consequence—in fact the better a priest or bishop is at property management the better—the value we place on property (all those canons and legal battles about “who gets to keep the stuff") betrays a sin once received and already blessed.

[36] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-11-2006 at 03:40 AM • top

Dear almost alive priest,
If you were around the people I associate with, we have the freedom in Jesus to say to those to practice greed, corpulence and pride.."Hey brother/sister, lets have a talk...are you happy with what I see?? or is it something you don’t see, do you think Jesus would be happy with this: and we then begin to minister to each other.
If the problem is with purple shirts, pluck up the courage and ask for an appointment and tell him what is bothering you.  You never know he may accept what you are saying and thank you for it.
Otherwise he will continue in his sin if nobody tells him
Question..what is a dolt???not an Australianism.
Fr Brian

[37] Posted by Brian on 08-11-2006 at 04:17 AM • top

Dolt: a dill or a drongo is about the same meaning; not quite as bad as a dag!
What city are you in, (Fr.) Brian?
Whereas nearly all the comments have stuck to the case that Hicks makes, I was distracted by wondering how it was that even though VGR was known (at least by some) in 1992 to be so derelict, and despite the association of the OutRight website with VGR at GC03 time, and so on and on - it remains this hard to get the word out. Thanks to Lee Parker for the Titusonenine archival tip - re-visiting Joanne Samson’s long comment was thought-provoking as well.
In October 2003 Hicks stood up again for Christian orthodoxy, and got taken down for it by guess who:
http://www.ecusa.anglican.org/3577_21150_ENG_HTM.htm

[38] Posted by TACit on 08-11-2006 at 04:57 AM • top

Dear TACit,
I live in Canberra.now I know what Dolt means. thank you.
It is amazing what IT does and the net..it has grown so fast, that almost before you think, it has come back to you.
It is like Mrs Mathes blog...referring her to StandFirm helps get news to the right people.
Just thought,, because you knew what drongo means, you must be aussie too?
Brian

[39] Posted by Brian on 08-11-2006 at 05:14 AM • top

Brian, we’ve been here 14 years so are nearly dinky-di sandgropers, I reckon cool smile - though we’re Yanks, and still learning to speak the language!:-S
I have thus watched in pain at great distance as the Church of my birth self-destructs and prayed for the remnant, and for the truth of what has been going on to be revealed.  All in God’s time, it seems.

[40] Posted by TACit on 08-11-2006 at 06:03 AM • top

Almost Live -

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the self-focused people who go through the discernment process talking about “my call” as if they owned it… or “my church,” or “my scriptures” for that matter.  There is idolatry running rampant in the church to its shame....

However, let us not smokescreen or obfuscate… what we are talking about is people who are repentant and who are unrepentant; the open celebration of what all the rest of Christendom, the whole communion of saints across time and space of history, has a testimony about the power of Jesus to transform our broken sexuality et al.  To suggest that this is no longer the Gospel is to change it.

I have heard this sort of argument many times before (often out of my own mouth when I was a teenager), that of “well, they have big problems too,” as if that somehow justifies my own behavior.  We are all condemned because of our sin, and it is only the shed blood of Jesus that has the power to retrieve us from a life of death.  To be snatched from the jaws of judgment by the judge should have a tranforming affect on our behavior.  When it does not, we confess it, we repent, and we get restored to right relationship with Christ as we (hopefully) grow into his image.  V.Gene is advocating open denial of the truths of God about right relationship with Him and with each other.  Simply because others have sins that the discernment processes do not unearth is not a basis for him to have authority to overturn the scriptures, which are univocal on the issue of homosexuality across a canon spanning many writers and many generations, not to mention the span of time across the last 20 centuries where the Church has been univocal.

For you to somehow try to make the case that because some people have the sin of pride or greed that is in secret, that it justifies the open promulgation of a lie as the truth, is some pretty shaky theological ground on which make a case for such an innovation as TEC is making in the area of sexuality.

[41] Posted by Christoferos on 08-11-2006 at 07:13 AM • top

Re: “The ceremonies to ordain and consecrate the prideful, corpulent, and greedy are already in place. . . . “

Well, no, they’re not in place.  So far I haven’t yet seen such a ceremony.

You’re trying to make the point of “we’re all sinners, and we ordain sinners, so why focus on this one.”

Well, because others are “focused on this one” and they desire to see both church and society approve it and name it a good thing.

That’s what this is about—gaining societal and religious approval for behavior that is sinful.

Furthermore, Episcopal clergy and bishops like nothing more than to drone on and on about materialism and money [and incidentally equate the two as the same as capitalism] so we have greediness covered, if only very inexpertly and callowly.  No, one can hardly turn around without hearing declamations about the wickednesses of pollution and public smoking, since generally speaking Episcopal sermons tend to agree with the current culture on what they deem to be sins and not sins.

No, the sin that our church culture has “made peace with” is the rampant and unrestrained sexual expression that our culture has decided is necessary to a happy personal identity.

[42] Posted by Sarah Hey on 08-11-2006 at 07:34 AM • top

Thank you, Christoferos.  I would also add that one shouldn’t confuse the ministry of reticence with endorsement of a sin.  The sin of gluttony is apparent because it leads to obesity.  In interacting with fellow Christians who are obese, there are moments when it is appropriate not to mention it and moments to discuss it frankly.  Carefully chosen silence is not turning a blind eye; it is simply being attentive to the Holy Spirit’s prompting of when to speak out in love.  The same ministry of reticence can be applied to other sins; I simply used gluttony because it is so obvious.

[43] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 08-11-2006 at 07:50 AM • top

P. S. I should add that if an obese cleric were to encourage a lifestyle of gluttony to a group of high school students, then he should be promptly challenged.

[44] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 08-11-2006 at 08:29 AM • top

***Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding*****

Christoferos & Sarah hit on this element and it’s time to pay attention because this is a great example.

Almost Live is using a variation on the “straw man argument”, which is one of those fallacies in logic.  It’s the classis gambit of redirection and some of you fell for it.  The goal is to get you off-topic and defend a position that you don’t really have.

The discussion on the table is “homosexuality”.  If you will notice Almost Live failed to address any of the points in David Hicks article that he disagrees with and present us with a similar exposition of why he does not believe that homosexuality is not a sin.  Moreover, if a behavior or action is not a sin, then it is something good and ordained by God.  I would love to see a logical exposition of why it is blessed by God.

I’m also curious about treasured liberal site he came from....I’m sure that they would just love to dialogue with me.

tongue rolleye

[45] Posted by Gayle on 08-11-2006 at 08:42 AM • top

Gayle,
Almost Live came from Fr. Jake Stops the World.  Good luck.

[46] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 08:45 AM • top

Thanks again to everyone for all the responses.  I looked up “dolt” on dictionary.com and found “a stupid person, a dunce.” And, yes, the site I treasure is Fr Jake Stops the World.  I post there sometimes—read there often—there are a lot of our brothers and sisters in Christ who have been seriously injured by people with quick tempers, quick judgments, and little charity.

And there are some very wise and knowing people there.  But this is not to be a commercial for Fr. Jake’s.  I believe if anyone has followed my posts there, you will see a theme of “tone down the rhetoric”—the evil “they” are common garden variety sinners like the rest of us.  And always, “we’re all Christians, why can’t we discuss our differences.”

You all seem willing to discuss.  They are willing to discuss, why isn’t there more conversation among us?  Is it because we get our ego’s too much on the line—we want to say something clever, be right, impress our peers?  Pride, maybe. 

I promise I’ll get around to offering my 2 cents on the hot topic of why I no longer view homosexuality as a sin.  Maybe not today, but I will.

Gayle, I’m not clever enough to offer a “straw man” argument.  I’ll be as open as I can about my reasons for posting as I have so far ... I think that there is plenty of sin out there both among the leaders of the church and among the rank and file. 

Why has Gene Robinson’s consecration so deeply effected so many of us both for good and for ill?  What nerve has been struck?  The “gay” nerve really sets many of us off.  Not the pride nerve, not the gluttony nerve, not the greed nerve, not the divorced nerve, not the women priests nerve, not the boundary crossing nerve—you get the idea.

Sin is rampent in this country—epidemic—the rich are getting richer in many cases because they can afford the politicians who write the rules to favor the rich who give money to get the politicians elected?  The average poor person has even less in his pocket because the rich have legally gotten their hands on the little bit allocated for the poor.  And what they’re not getting, we’re spending to kill, torture, illegally imprison people who are tired of our hypocracy and bullying.  And we’re exercised about Gene Robinson?  Talk about values ...

[47] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-11-2006 at 02:16 PM • top

Thanks for your reasoned response, Almost Live.  Like you, I think that the rhetoric on all sides has become too strident at times.  And I think you’re right, we need to spend more time engaging with respect those with whom we disagree and less with those who are on “our side.” Think we can work out something like the schools - an exchange “blogger” program?

[48] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 02:31 PM • top

Almost Live:  I’m astonished at your assertions in your final paragraph, which seem to be based more on emotion than data and logic.  Your view of the economy is more Marxist than not; the economy is not zero sum, and money is not allocated to rich and poor, but is created and earned by effort and the incentive to earn more.  You might benefit by re-reading Adam Smith.

[49] Posted by El Jefe on 08-11-2006 at 02:31 PM • top

Re: “. . .why isn’t there more conversation among us?”

Yikes.  Almost Live, didn’t you hear the mantra?  We’ve had dialogue for 35 years.  PLUS, for the past three years, people have been talking on blogs.

The end result of all of this is that I—and other reasserters—don’t share the same foundational truths, gospel, or worldview enough to come to agreement.

RE: “Why has Gene Robinson’s consecration so deeply effected so many of us both for good and for ill?”

Question already answered by several commenters and several times earlier in this thread.  No reason to repeat the answer, since you don’t seem to like it.

[50] Posted by Sarah Hey on 08-11-2006 at 02:42 PM • top

Almost Alive Priest, if God says homosexuality is a sin, who are you (and the revisionists in TEC) to say it is not? 

You could only say this because you are blinded by your own sin.  Perhaps you are one of the 50% male/35%female population hooked on internet porn, engaged in adultery, physical abuse, sexual abuse, etc.  The stats are no different between lay and clergy, churched and unchurched.  It’s my hunch that this is the cause of the majority of TEC bishops and priests being so paralyzed and limpid about the issues confronting the church.

You can only say homosexuality is not a sin if your natural mind has not been converted to a Christian mind with a ‘Biblical mindset’.

Perhaps you once believed, were converted, but you have put out your inner light with your unconfessed unrepented sin.  Then, you have, as Proverbs 4:19 and Romans 1 say, suppressed the truth of God in your mind and you are walking in darkness, acting and stumbling blindly in the dark, as a ‘Gentile’ again.

Repent, Almost Alive Priest.  Return to God in unconditional surrender.  He will have mercy and compassion and allow to become a Truly Alive Priest!

[51] Posted by Floridian on 08-11-2006 at 03:09 PM • top

C’mon, folks. I think Almost Live was most civil in his/her discourse with us here.  Sarah, maybe Almost Live hasn’t been blogging for 3 years like you have.  I think the call for “more conversation among us” was a genuine one as was the call to tone down the rhetoric.  And to say that perhaps this person is “addicted to porn” is beyond how I think we are called to respond when people are being respectful & polite.  Disagree we may - and should - but I think the personal sniping is a bad witness for our Lord and doesn’t advance the Gospel.

[52] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 03:22 PM • top

Perhaps, as clergy we should begin every sermon (or homily) with the mantra of AA,

“Hello everyone, I’m Chip, and I’m a sinner!”

This might make recognizing the sinful tendencies within us and the sinful acts around us easier.  If we, as clergy and as part of a congregation keep ourselves reminded that we are all only sinners, saved by grace...and His grace alone...not of works, lest any man should boast, it would be a whole lot easier to keep ourselves and others from falling, and easier for those who watch us to realize the difference between ‘us’ and the ‘world’.

[53] Posted by Chip Johnson, cj on 08-11-2006 at 03:25 PM • top

Not a bad idea, Chip.

[54] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 03:36 PM • top

Floridian seems to be Sasha, but without all the extra !!!!!!!’s.

Floridian, please try to tone your posts down a bit.  They’re getting more and more strident, and approaching downright rude.

[55] Posted by CarolynP on 08-11-2006 at 04:15 PM • top

GL+, I was not accusing Almost Alive of engaging in any of the behaviors I listed.  I was wondering at the apparent lack of moral terpitude and spiritual conviction from both Episcopal clergy and laity who prefer to ‘take no stand on theology, morality and Scripture’.

AND - I was just stating statistics, looking for possible reasons anyone in the clergy (who are supposed to love God AND His Word) would not believe God when Scripture says
homosexuality is sin.

AND - trying to look for a logical reason why anyone would believe it is not harmful when science, psychology and plain evidence of statistics show that it is.  One can only surmise the person who does not think smoking is harmful enough to quit despite warnings on every pack, has willfully blinded him or herself because as Scripture says,’they are drawn away by their desires’

You think I’m being rude and unloving, but I believe it is more unloving not to confront sin and to pussyfoot around issues.  If Almost Alive is almost dead in an addiction or compulsion, it would be better if he got help and was able to walk the joy of freedom and holiness than for me to be polite and not mention the truth that many clergy are trappeded in very debilitating behaviors.

I intend to question EVERY revisionist and orthodox.  Thankfully, the Network clergy are facing up to their own sin, as the closing talk discloses.  All Christians need to maintain our spiritual lives as Philippians says, ‘with fear and trembling’ and continually face our sin.

The time for tea party politeness is over.  We need to care enough to ask why they have no moral, theological or Scriptural convictions.  It may be that they are protecting a wrong and addictive behavior themselves.  We have mentioned gluttony here today...internet gambling has not been mentioned, but it is a problem also.  College students have gotten hooked into gambling big time.
But internet porn is the biggest ‘drug’ of this century.  However, TV and movies we watch unblushingly today would have been porn when I was a child.  I do not have cable in my house for the reason that I don’t want to support the irresponsible media.  The soft porn on TV feeds into the harder stuff. I know preachers and choir members who have lost their marriages with this addiction.  Only in Christ can people be helped.

Internet porn draws in more revenue than pro sports annually.  Marriott, Yahoo and other well-known companies traffic in it. 

Porn in our homes is like having live rattlesnakes among our children.

I will remain rude, unapologetically, but I feel strongly that if a clergyman get his (or her - 35% of porn viewers are women)thrills form porn, they need to get help.

[56] Posted by Floridian on 08-11-2006 at 04:48 PM • top

Floridian – There’s no doubt that there’s plenty of sin on my plate. 

I’m sure you are aware that the more we open up, the more we reveal about ourselves.  Don’t you find it just a bit immodest to have suggested that for me to disagree with you is to disagree with God? 

I believe that one of the reasons Jesus reminded us to deal with the 2 x 4 in our own eye before we tried to deal with the speck in our brother’s eye is because he understood us.  Thanks for your input. 

Sarah Hey – I am a neophyte at blogging – only ventured into this realm in the last several months.  I realize that there are many people who have been at this for quite a while.  I’m just not one of them.

Do you find the labels helpful – reasserters vs reappraisers – liberals – conservatives?  I wonder to what extent they serve to drive us apart simply by using them.  I believe that parts of the Bible teach us that we are “in the same boat.” We must learn to get along.  I believe “getting along” was high on Jesus agenda.

You and I agree that “foundational truths, gospel, or worldview” are some of the issues we have not been able to agree on.  I wonder if you would be so generous as to share your understanding of the seemingly incompatible views.

I’ll go first:  One of my “bedrock beliefs” is that we are all sinners.  I would hope that this would lead to humility in the body of Christ – and a realization that whatever truth we may claim we have it has passed through a sinful filter (that’s us).  Didn’t St. Paul have something to say about that?  Wasn’t that in his beautiful hymn to agape?

A second “bedrock belief” is God’s transcendence.  So much of God is mystery and is not known – by definition.  Sometimes I think that in our ego driven fascination with Jesus, we get a little too close to God for our own good – we lose the sense that Moses had to take off his shoes as the very ground (that’s dirt) was Holy.  He had to hide his face.  Too many of us are a little too familiar with the HOLY God.

I’m not speaking of you, personally … just trying to “go first” on a couple of basic points.  I’m not asking you to do anything I’m not willing to do myself.

As to those of you who joined in a plea for treating one another with dignity and respect, thank you.

[57] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-11-2006 at 05:32 PM • top

“Too many of us are a little too familiar with the HOLY God.

I can agree with you on this, for sure.  Part of the theology of east-facing altar vs an altar that faces the people has to do with the transcendence vs the immanence of God.  When all (including the priest) face the altar, we tend to think more about the holy, other-ness of God.  When we “gather around” the altar, we tend more to think of the presence of God in our midst.  Not promoting one or the other, just commenting on the possible theological implications.

And the sinner part, too - indeed!  I liked Chip Johnson’s suggestion (above).

[58] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 05:48 PM • top

ALP, it is one of the CHURCH’s bedrock beliefs that ‘we are all sinners’, and furthermore, that we all stand in need of the grace of God to turn around our sin-filled lives, to come together and be the Church in the world (by grace, through faith).  If ‘we are all sinners’ is also one of *your* bedrock beliefs, then it ought to bring you into the fellowship of believers that share the rest of the hope stated in my first sentence.  On its/your own, your stated bedrock belief doesn’t necessarily mean much, because it needs grace to be effectual. A similar point for your belief in God’s trancendence.  This is a belief and a teaching of the Church - along with that of God’s immanence. God cannot be kept at arm’s length while we all dialogue our socks off.  God wants to be intimate with us and through us, and not in the way that VGR advocated in the talk in 1992 reported in the post that we are all commenting on.  To encourage anyone, especially youth, away from the direction that God calls us to walk in is seriously reprehensible, not cause for elevating the person to a leadership position.  Hence the Current Unpleasantness, which no amount of dialogue will repair.

[59] Posted by TACit on 08-11-2006 at 06:12 PM • top

Dear Almost Live Priest,
Thanks for elaborating your ‘bedrock beliefs’.
While most of us here do recognise that we are fallible and at best only know and see in part I don’t think that limits God from revealing Himself to us perfectly in Jesus Christ,at least that’s what I read in places like 1 John 1:1-18,which touch on not only on His transcendence but on His literally coming down to be one of us.
I’m no great shakes as a theologian but a couple of thoughts ring out here to me,that ‘the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,full of grace and truth’ and from my vantage point,rather than it being an ‘ego driven fascination with Jesus’ or being ‘too close to God for our own good’,it is a reality to be delighted in,to drink in.After all,doesn’t Psalm 34:8 say ‘taste and see that the Lord is good;how blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him’

[60] Posted by paddy on 08-11-2006 at 06:30 PM • top

paddy, you remind me of the Church fathers, what with your Scriptural references in each paragraph and all… one thing that is striking about theology written before the 19th century and theology written after it is the diminishing number of references to Scripture… no wonder people can wander off the Christian reservation....Rom 6:6

[61] Posted by Christoferos on 08-11-2006 at 07:11 PM • top

TACit - Do you remember the prophet Nathan approaching King David?  David thinks the prophet is being hypothetical in talking talking about the lamb being taken from the poor man by the rich man.  Feeling O so SECURE, David pronounces judgment on the rich offender.  Then Nathan tells the King, “Thou art the man.”

It appears to me that you’d like to assume that in this example, Gene Robinson is king David and so Nathan’s tale to him would be, what should we do with a man who delibertly and knowingly leads children into sin?  And Gene (like David) takes the bait and suggests some harsh punishment.  And then Nathan says, “Gene, thou are the man.”

But what if Nathan were to ask you and me about people who used God’s holy word to prey upon a small minority of people whom God had made different and whom God loves deeply—used the very Word of the loving, forgiving God as a club with which to beat, discriminate, and persecute this especially loved minority.  So who is “the man?”

When I use my sinful apprehension of the mystery of the Word to