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David Hicks: Our Passions and the Promiscuous Church

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 • 12:48 pm

"It is essential for Christians to ask: are homosexuals well served by those who wink at the sin of sodomy or make allowances for the so-called homosexual lifestyle? Apparently, many Christians believe they are. One might start by asking why so many Christians believe this. Is it to show love? Then should a Christian not show love as Christ did, not by ignoring or affirming the sinful behavior, but by forgiving it and demanding a change of life and holiness, even at the great cost of taking up the cross?"
Our Passions and the Promiscuous Church

by David V. Hicks

I

The only time I ever heard the now Bishop Gene Robinson speak was at a Vespers service at St. Paul’s School in the fall of 1992. His topic appeared to be God’s gift of love, a phrase he often repeated in his talk, but his point conflated love with sex, and he urged the girls and boys of St. Paul’s to share their sexual gifts “either with someone of the same sex or someone of the opposite sex.” He said this more than once, and I jotted the phrase down in the book of prayers at my desk. No mention of marriage or even of commitment. He did close his talk, however, with a disarming suggestion that God would be well pleased if His gifts were shared safely. “Please use a condom.”

I approached Fr. Robinson after the service, and in the presence of our School Chaplain I expressed strong disapproval of his message and told him that he would not again be welcome in our pulpit as long as I remained Rector at the School. Not only was he, from my traditional perspective, preaching sin, but because of the nature of his audience, he was encouraging our students to break the rules of the School and the laws of the State of New Hampshire, where I believe it is still illegal for an eighteen year old to have sex with a fourteen year old. Fortunately for us both, my Rectorship lasted less than four years, and I was not in New Hampshire to question his elevation or, in the event, to suffer the fate of being out of Communion with my Bishop.

At the time, I knew nothing of Mr. Robinson’s sexual preferences, and it was not his oblique references to homosexuality that alarmed me so much as his implication that God allows, nay, smiles upon whatever we choose to do in the name of love. There was a malevolently yet seductively twisted logic in his argument. I tried to listen with the ears of one of my students, and what I heard not only gave wings to my passions and license to my libido, but it made me think less of myself for failing to be sexually active, for failing to use my God-given sexual gifts. It tickled my adolescent ears and undercut all the repressive preachments of my parents and the school authorities, as I’m sure it was meant to do. My liberation was at hand!

This happened more than a decade ago. It is now clear to me that what I was then hearing was the case for homosexuality. It is not, after all, a special case, but a general one attacking not only the traditional norms for sexual morality, but the Church’s ancient teachings on the sinful nature of man and the passions (desires, emotions, feelings) that cloud his intellect and darken his soul. I am grateful to Mr. Robinson for helping me make the connection between what sometimes seems the special pleading for a homosexual exemption from the old taboos against same-sex intimacies and the general decline in moral behavior and our society’s contempt for the concept of sin.

This case boils down to saying, “Because I have a strong, innate desire to do this, I should have the right to do it, and it must be all right to do it.” The premise is interesting only in that it emphasizes the strength and innateness of the desire, but upon consideration one is bound to ask: what desire is not strong and innate in the person afflicted with it? The conclusions are, of course, non-sequiturs, as well as contrary to a huge body of wisdom literature on the subject teaching us to beware of strong, innate desires. They are the very things likely to overwhelm our right reason and sound inhibitions.

The first conclusion appeals to the State, the second to the Church, and in both, the case for homosexuality is being made stridently and effectively these days. Not too long ago, State and Church were united in condemning homosexual behavior, but both are now in various stages of repudiating the old taboos and acceding to the demands of those who view any criticism of homosexual behavior as insensitive, discriminatory, and unfair. To oppose the case for homosexuality is to court personal attacks and labeling as a “homophobe” or “fundamentalist” while condemning any kind of public career, unless one aspires to be a conservative talk-show host or the mayor of a very small southern town. For this reason – and no doubt for fear of being associated with those who hate or ridicule homosexuals – the case often goes unchallenged. This silence, I have found, seldom means agreement, although it can be read that way, and it creates an atmosphere of hypocrisy and distrust that enlightens no one and hurts everyone, whatever his view on the subject.

In the Northeastern school world of the Nineties, this reticence seemed to me particularly out of place and hypocritical. Homosexuality, like vivisection and the wearing of pelts, only more so, was a kind of cause celebre, and many schools were in the process of recruiting practicing homosexuals for their faculties and of establishing gay-lesbian support groups for faculty and students. Students were encouraged to “come out,” to affirm their sexual orientation, not to be ashamed. Why not talk about it? On one occasion a couple teachers, concerned that our school was not keeping pace with this enlightenment, approached me to ask if I would be willing to host a conference at the School on the topic. I said that I would be happy to do so, but only on the condition that the speakers not be limited to those who were advocates and apologists for homosexual behavior. That was the last I heard of the idea. No one seemed interested in a truly open and informed discussion of the issues involved. Nor among the many schools that have accepted the case for homosexuality am I aware of any that did so after an exhaustive and public debate on all sides of the issue. Typically, either out of personal conviction or under pressure from some members of the faculty, a headmaster persuades the board, if it needs persuading, that this form of “discrimination” must end. And it does. The case is never openly debated.

II

Part of our problem may be that we cannot seem to find a way to disagree with one another on this topic in a civil manner. In some ways, this is understandable, perhaps even inevitable. Where is the middle ground? One cannot circumscribe a homosexual act any more than one can be half pregnant. For one side, the argument against homosexual behavior is a personal attack, an assault on behavior identified not only with the will, but with the self. What is at stake is not a “what” (a habit like gambling or a way of life like farming), but a “who” (the irreducible me). For the other side, the argument is often no less visceral. The heterosexual’s physical aversion to same-sex intimacies rivals the homosexual’s attraction. And this aversion sometimes enflames the rhetoric of the historical arguments against homosexual behavior in the West, that it is unhealthy or unwholesome (Plato speaking for many of the pagan writers); that it is unnatural (St. Paul writing to the Romans and citing the natural law arguments of the Stoics rather than the fierce proscriptions of the Jews); and that it is sinful (the consensus of the major religions).

Another part of the problem is that most of us have homosexual friends about whom we care deeply. We do not wish to give offense, nor is it our role, if we are Christian, to be judging the sins of others. That is, after all, the responsibility of the Church: to remind us of our sinfulness, to help us call to mind and name and confess our sins so that we can receive forgiveness and healing and “newness of life.”

Consequently, we only speak about these things with those who agree with us, either for fear of giving offense or of appearing as “one of them,” or because we don’t know what to say. The gulf between us on this question seems too great. Yet the silence is making the gulf even greater and contributing to the illusion that most people agree with us or that all the clever people are on one side of this divide. This is certainly the impression the media gives.

Yet no scientific discoveries, psychological studies, or genetic breakthroughs have vitiated the religious argument against homosexual acts. A woman’s proven genetic predisposition to lie, cheat, steal, or have sex with other women does not alter the religious argument. If anything, it strengthens it, giving to the Christian doctrine of Original Sin, for example, the force of a scientific proof. We humans emerge from the womb flawed. Our bent to sin is written in our genes.

We do not argue, after all, that kleptomaniacs should be allowed to steal or that pathological liars be allowed to lie with impunity. But these extreme cases are not nearly as telling as the more ordinary ones. Let each man examine himself and name his own sinful inclinations: vanity, greed, gluttony, lust, pride, envy, sloth. We are prone to all of these every day, usually yielding to them without the slightest pricks of conscience. Everyone’s self-indulgence is legendary. Repentance is the categorical Christian response to these sins, whether known or unknown, acknowledged or more often than not, unacknowledged by our de-sensitized consciences. In his diary the Russian priest Alexander Elchaninov made this acute observation: “Insensitivity, petrifaction, deadness of soul – these are the result of long-established sins which have not been confessed in time. The soul is greatly eased if we immediately confess the sin we have just committed, while we still feel its pang. Confession, if postponed, leads to insensibility.”

It is through as simple a thing as repetition that men and women are corrupted and learn first to tolerate sin, then to ignore it, then to deny it, then to love it, finally to laugh at the very notion of sin and the idea of a just and righteous God. Take any sinful act, the single commission of which would repulse most people. Lying, hating, cheating, stealing, fornicating, blaspheming. It does not matter. All are acts so often repeated in our society that those who habitually perform them, and many who do not, no longer regard them as sinful. What is worse, these acts and others like them are multiplied and amplified by being performed repeatedly on stage and screen, romanticized in music and reported in the media. This repetition becomes a kind of corporate transgression seeping into the souls of millions. This constant repetition of sins, witnessed and imagined, slowly and relentlessly erases our consciousness of sin. Those who become murderers have already murdered hundreds in their imaginations before committing their first crime. Our private virtual worlds are steeped in sin, making the speaking and acting out of the imagination of our hearts not only inevitable, but as natural as drinking water.

What must follow is that the Scriptures naming and judging sin become irrelevant, indeed, risible. Arguments based on moral absolutes derived from religion are either put in the mouths of ridiculous imposters and self-righteous prigs to be laughed at, or they are subverted by sophistical and self-serving rationalizations. I heard on the news not long ago about some men accused of raping twelve year old boys at a choir school. The school defended itself and the men involved by claiming, among other things, that the boys had consented to these acts. This only seems logical in a society that would permit anything as long as the participants consent to it. We can thank Princeton’s prominent ethicist Peter Singer for pointing out that once the mythic prohibitions of irrational religion are removed, nothing stands between consenting people and bestiality, incest, sadomasochism, orgies, and other violations of traditional morality.

This is what our freedoms and rights now mean to us, what our Courts and newspapers defend, what our legal system is designed to uphold. Not the moral absolutes of atavistic religion, but the right of each to pursue the passions that make him happy. We are far from calling these repeated behaviors sinful, and in spite of a national epidemic of aborted innocents, death-dealing sexually transmitted diseases, children without fathers, despondent lives caught in the grip of relentless passions, and tragic self-slaughter, we cannot even bring ourselves to call these behaviors, as the pagans did, unhealthy, unwholesome, or unnatural. We are living far down on a slippery slope and sliding fast. With every repetition, we accelerate our fall, as the prophets foretold.

III

It is a common observation that the identification of sex with the self is one of the legacies of the Sixties and of radical feminism. We are schooled to think of ourselves as essentially sexual animals. Being from Venus or Mars – or lost in erotic space – determines not only our social roles and psychological make-up, but our very souls, if we have souls. Take away our sexuality, and we are nothing. So many books have been written (and expurgated – I once sat through a prep school faculty meeting dedicated to the removal of sexist references in Homer) and so many courses taught to make this point that there is now no subject, however banal or sublime, that cannot be turned into a metaphor for eroticism or for the battle between the sexes. Sex is the one thing most dangerous, that is, the one thing that purports to explain everything. It is the most puissant god of our times, and his ancient name is Eros.

Christianity rescued the ancient world from this all-devouring deity, and in a defenseless secular State, it may yet be our best protection against the passions he unleashes with his fiery darts. But this depends on the integrity of institutions like the Church that have long histories of channeling the restless energies of this god.

Our passions always seem right to us. Debby Boone crooned our cultural mantra when she sang, “It can’t be wrong when it feels so right.” Whether anger, jealousy, envy, or lust, our passions dominate the intellect and force reason to do their bidding. Without some greater end in view than our own desires, reason will serve our desires and persuade us of their rightness. “There is a way that seems right to a person, but its end is the way to death.” (Proverbs xiv.12) Yet how easy to forget, when judging the folly, repulsiveness, or injustice of another’s passion, that we behave in the same way when in the grip of our passions, and we are judged by others just as we judge them.

Historically, we humans have responded to our passions in three ways. We might call these responses Nietzschean, Stoic and Christian, if we understand the terms to be merely illustrative, not definitive. Terms like Romantic, Classical and Religious might serve as well. We can, like Nietzsche and his many modern disciples, identify our passions with the self and embrace them in an amoral, godless, Hobbesian, existential universe. The will to power is the passion par excellence hidden in every motive and shaping every fate. Whatever feels right can’t be wrong for me, and whatever thwarts my will to achieve my desires, those things that feel right to me, must be opposed.

Or we can play the Stoic and starve the passions with thought exercise and seek to dominate them with reason. This response also affirms the self, but it identifies the Platonic self with the intellect and portrays man as being in perpetual combat with his passions. Otherwise, as Hobbes said, he is in perpetual combat with others. In his journal the Stoic Emperor Marcus Aurelius admonishes himself, “Blot out imagination; restrain impulse; stifle desire; give your reason the upper hand.”

Or we can reject the self altogether and seek to make passion subject to a telos, or greater end. Now for Christians, this telos is God, the Holy Trinity accessed through Jesus Christ, who showed the Christian how to live with his passions by making his own Passion subject to the will of His and our Father, even to the point of death on a cross. “Jesus told his disciples, ‘If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.’” (Matthew xvi.24-25)

In Christian terms, to say I am a homosexual is equivalent to saying I am tempted to sin. This is a category in which every Christian finds himself. In the sense in which President Kennedy once said “I am a Berliner,” every Christian can say, “I am a homosexual.” We are all fighting for our political freedoms, although not all of us are Germans. We are all tempted to sin, although not in the same ways. Moreover, the case for homosexuality is the advocacy we all want for our secret and not so secret desires. It is this that makes the case so seductive and so difficult to argue against, although not difficult to refute. Each of us lives in his own glass house of desire, and this makes throwing stones both difficult and hazardous. Yet if the unequivocal teachings of the Sacred Scriptures and of Holy Tradition can be de-constructed, contextualized, and de-mythologized in such a way as to erase the sin of sodomy, so can every teaching of the Faith, and we might as well build idols to ourselves or to Eros and be done with it.

IV

It is essential for Christians to ask: are homosexuals well served by those who wink at the sin of sodomy or make allowances for the so-called homosexual lifestyle? Apparently, many Christians believe they are. One might start by asking why so many Christians believe this. Is it to show love? Then should a Christian not show love as Christ did, not by ignoring or affirming the sinful behavior, but by forgiving it and demanding a change of life and holiness, even at the great cost of taking up the cross?

Is it to widen the door of the fold, to bring more homosexuals into the Church? No one can gainsay this intention. It is probably a fair criticism of the American church that it is too often a club for the conventionally good rather than a sanctuary for sinners, but the strategy of pretending that homosexual behavior is not sinful merely compounds this criticism by enlarging the definition of what is conventionally good. At what cost and to what avail is this concession being made? If there is no sin and no need for repentance, who needs Christ and His bride, the Church, anyway?

Is it because of the understandable pain many feel for their gay children, their lesbian friends and loved ones, and those from whom the gift of conjugal love seems to be withheld? It is often harder to bear the suffering of others than our own. Yet there are a thousand worse tragedies than desiring same-sex intimacies, many involving no element of human choice whatsoever: the child with cerebral palsy, the father with leukemia, the baby born blind, the daughter struck by a drunk driver and confined to a wheel chair. The list is endless. Why is homosexuality the condition, if indeed it is that, that calls into question God’s mercy and His mysterious purposes?

Again from Elchaninov’s diary, “I am continually pondering the text: ‘If ye were of the world, the world would love his own’ (John xv.19). Our sufferings are the sign that we belong to Christ; and the greater they are, the more evident it is that we are not ‘of the world’. Why did all the saints, following the example of Christ Himself, suffer so much? Contact with the world, being plunged into the midst of things, gives pain to the followers of Christ; only the children of this world suffer no pain. This is a kind of unerring chemical reaction.”

The efficacy of Christianity for the homosexual is not in its acceptance of his behavior, which in psychological terminology is merely enabling, but in its challenge to his behavior and in its presentation, one might say, of an alternative lifestyle. This is precisely the value of the Christian faith and its challenge to all of us sinners.

Nor are homosexuals alone in struggling with this challenge. None of us wishes to give up his lifestyle. We all want to indulge our passions and imagine that God understands and perhaps even cheers us on as we amass our riches, ignore the poor, drink away our hurts, indulge our craving for things, get even with our enemies, scratch whatever itches us, and feel morally superior to those who do not attend our church or vote the way we do or give free rein to desires we don’t have. We imagine, if we give it a second thought at all, that we are acceptable to God just as we are and that we can enjoy the riches of our Father’s house and the comfort of His love without, like the Prodigal, making the long journey home. Yet nothing could be more at odds with the sense of Scripture or the genius of “mere Christianity.”

Have we, after all, lost the capacity of the early Christians to confess our sins publicly and to weep together over them, encouraging one another in holy and righteous living and celebrating together not our hedonistic lifestyles, but our Lord’s compassion and forgiveness?

V

Does the plaintive plea that “God made me this way” add anything to the case for same-sex intimacies? It is hard to see how, except by making God responsible for my sins. If the homosexual can blame God for his desire to be physically intimate with others of his sex, why cannot the glutton blame God for her food cravings or the thief for his impulse to steal? This is the modern version, I suppose, of “the Devil made me do it,” and it is the very blasphemy that the doctrines of the Fall and Original Sin help Christians to avoid. Christians who make this argument for homosexuality are really excusing every form of libidinous behavior and rendering the entire biblical narrative either nonsensical, which not a few in the Academy would contend anyway, or a cruel trick. God not only sells alcohol to the Indians. He forces them to drink.

Is this then where the Reformation peters out? There is a logical, perhaps inevitable progression in the reaction against a corrupt Church’s simony, legalism, and abuse of its power to bind on earth, to Luther’s unilateral assertion of faith alone, to Calvin’s stunning rejection of free will, to the long era of sudden salvation and easy grace, to the theology of anything goes. All of these developments possess the unintended psychological appeal of removing responsibility for holiness and sin from the individual, either by making holiness and sin irrelevant to faith or by making the demands of the one and the shame of the other conveniently disappear. Is it not entirely predictable that in a secular and increasingly anti-Christian society, where for millions of our fellow citizens confession is no longer a means of forgiveness and spiritual healing, that the sense of sin must itself be made to go away? No sin; no guilt. And the promiscuous churches that bow to this pressure and preach this strange creed are gradually emptying. Nor is this surprising. No need for Christ’s bloody cross and cup either.

Should men and women be at liberty to engage in same-sex acts? Of course. They are free, both existentially and politically, to succumb to this passion as to many, many others. Our freedom to choose between affirming the self or denying it to follow Christ is, in Christian terms, the essence of personhood and the point of existence, and we have the witness (martyrdom) of a legion of saints – men and women of all races, classes, cultures, times, and sexual orientations – that this is so.

This is not about preventing homosexuals from sinning either. We all have that right and exercise it regularly. Our concern should not be their sins, but our own. This is, however, about preserving the Church’s witness in a fallen world, about giving hope to those who, like ourselves, are mired in sin, hope that there is a place of shelter from the storm of passions raining down on us, hope that God’s kingdom is, as our Lord never tired of saying, “at hand,” hope that the Lord our Creator – not our sexuality, not our will to power, not our genetic code – is at the root of our being, and He stands at the door of our hearts knocking.

Every child is a child of God, created in the divine image, meant to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Every child is a son of perdition, fallen from grace, needing the redemption that God offers in His Son Jesus. On this mystery the Church is founded; on this paradox the Church founders.

When he spoke to the rising generation at St. Paul’s School, Bishop Robinson was not merely dismissing the teachings of his church’s sacred texts and traditions on the question of homosexuality, he was dismissing everything that stands between us and our heart’s desire. Without Christ (or the Torah or Koran for that matter), it all becomes subjective and contextual. The Holy Grail will probably be discovered before philosophers come up with a rational ground for morality. Meanwhile, without religious faith, there is only the State to decide what is right and wrong and to hold in check the passions misruling us. George Washington, by no means the most religious of men, saw this clearly when in his last message to the Congress he described religious faith as the indispensable public bulwark against the flood of private passions threatening the Republic. But when the bishops of the church are themselves manning the dikes with picks and shovels, what hope have we weak and sinful ones, living below sea level in what the pagan Sallust called this “sink of iniquity?”

David V. Hicks lives and works in South Florida. He and his brother Scot are the authors of a new translation of Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations, published by Scribner as The Emperor's Handbook.

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Comments:

If the comments made by David in the above article are true,particularly the ones about the school, and I don’t question the veracity of the statement, then Gene boy should be hung and quartered and neutered for making such a blasphemous statement, and I hope this report gets WIDE publicity in the media to show the man (if that is what he is) is reprehensible and totally unworthy of the office he holds and ought to be defrocked publicly.
Brian

[1] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-09-2006 at 04:56 PM • top

Simply brilliant, top to bottom.  And only when I got to the endnote did I make the connection of this David Hicks with the author of The Emperor’s Handbook, which is without doubt the very best and most readable version of Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations.  Where was this piece published, and when?  If it hasn’t been in print, it ought to be, perhaps in Touchstone.

Thanks, Greg, for posting this.

[2] Posted by VaAnglican on 08-09-2006 at 05:30 PM • top

I can’t wait till it gets more press,espousing apostasy and aberrational sexual behaviour outside of marriage to minors,the Communion is gonna have a field day with that.

[3] Posted by paddy on 08-09-2006 at 06:16 PM • top

Can I read this from the pulpit on Sunday and pitch my own sermon?  I know it doesn’t have much of a connection to “I am the bread of life,” but do you think I will be excused?  Or just run out on a rail?

In my seminary (that which must not be named), they were teaching (with the blank slate students eyes glazed and mouths gaping, swallowing it all hook line and sinker), that Irenaeus taught that we were not in Original Sin, but that we were immature and needed maturing.

Augustine was thrown out as a classic example of a proof-texter dealing with his own guilt about sex-addiction, and Luther was given the boot with him.  One student said, “I just wish Augustine hadn’t plagued the church with guilt for centuries with the unbiblical doctrine of Original Sin,” and the zombies nodded in the affirmative.

This leads to the kind of thinking that the brilliant Mr. Hicks is critiquing so ably.  Well done, sir, well done.

[4] Posted by Christoferos on 08-09-2006 at 07:02 PM • top

Christoferos:  I read a treatise once which called same-sex attractions “affective immaturity”.  In that case, perhaps, there is a definite lack of maturity.  Psycho-social development stops at a particular time in early childhood.  I have had a number of friends and acquaintances who experienced and acted on same-sex attractions, and I noted that each and everyone, regardless of age, evinced immature behavior in one or more areas of their lives.  That does not, however, make any sort of case for denying original sin.  As a cradle Missouri Synod Lutheran, I am well aware of original sin and its implications.  How sad whatever seminary (cemetary?) you attended disregarded the valuable inspiration both Augustine and Luther provide for classical Anglicanism.

[5] Posted by El Jefe on 08-09-2006 at 07:54 PM • top

Greg,

This is without any question one of the three or four finest essays on the topic written since GC03—and that includes a lot of writing!

Many thanks for posting it.

[6] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-09-2006 at 08:17 PM • top

David Hicks makes a compelling case. Thanks, Greg, for posting this.

[7] Posted by Gulfstream on 08-09-2006 at 08:24 PM • top

Brian, I seriously doubt the language you used was intended literally.  However, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from the use of violent metaphors on the SF site.  I agree that VGR’s comments were reprehensible. 
Most of what we’ve read on this crisis has been from theologians and clerics.  I am deeply grateful for the perspective of a professional educator (school headmaster).

[8] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 08-09-2006 at 08:41 PM • top

Paul Little relates that when he had a campus ministry, one night he was teaching a fraternity of football players about the Gospel.  When he finished he invited the men to receive Christ.  When there was no response, he asked them what part did they not believe.  One of the guys replied that they believed it all and understood it.  Little asked then why not receive Christ?  One of them said, “because it will interfer with our sex life!”  In the garden Satan first denegratd the Word of God—“Yea, hath God said…” then appealed to the senses and last offered the ability to be as God and decide what would be good or evil.  We all like to get to be God and do our own thing.  This is idolotry.  Then we excuse and propagate this evil.  The only answer is repentance and submission to the Lordship of Christ.  Every thing else leads to death.

[9] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-09-2006 at 09:29 PM • top

Brian:  Actually, the old punishment was to be hanged, drawn, and quartered.  The prisoner was strangled to unconsciousness, then revived, and his intestines were removed(drawn out)  while he was still alive, and then shown to him.  Then he was cut in parts, his head placed on a pike in a public place, and the other quarters distributed in different places.  Often,as a matter of mercy, the executioner would make sure the prisoner was dead before drawing and quartering.  There is a graphic depiction of this being done to conspirators against the Queen in the film “Elizabeth”.  Heretics were usually burned at the stake.

[10] Posted by El Jefe on 08-09-2006 at 09:31 PM • top

Dear Jill,
My use of such language was that I could not find enough adjectives to express the horror and disgust I felt when I read the first paragraph. In Australia talking about h & q is an expression of judgement for actions. I have no doubt VGR will have that for passing on such blasphemy to children.
My apologies if I have offended you, but this was the expression of my dismay of this action.
Brian

[11] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-09-2006 at 09:55 PM • top

The anecdote about VGR’s preaching at the school vespers is indeed shocking, but remember the brief furor at GC03 about the “youth ministry” web site OutRight, which Dr Radner discussed shortly afterwards in his open letter to his bishop:

... While few doubt the literal deniability of Robinson’s involvement in the web-site of OutRight, you all seem to have missed the main point, one that is crystal clear to many young people and their parents: that is, that sexual “confusion” is not something to be dealt with in a manner of encouragement and experimentation, something that OutRight’s philosophy, shared by Robinson and apparently affirmed by the House of Bishops, promotes. These are deeply dangerous waters, poorly understood, and the advocacy of the adult “mentoring” pursued by this so-called “ministry” is something that few responsible adults would advise as anything but harmful to young teenagers. That the whole Convention of the Episcopal Church should find this unproblematic as a paraded “qualification” for the episcopacy is astonishing and, for many, repugnant.

... and remember: a) the “Q” in GLBTQ is “questioning”—and sexual identity is principally a topic for adolescents; b) the shouted slogan at Gay Pride parades all over the country in the ‘90s was “Recruit, recruit, recruit!”

Did anyone have any doubt, ever, really, what this was (and is) all about?

[12] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-09-2006 at 09:59 PM • top

I must echo all the above thanks to David Hicks for writing this and Greg Griffith for posting it, as well as the hopes expressed that it will find a wide readership.  Didn’t we need to know this some years ago!  John Kerry is an alum of the school, and so is FTG if I’m not mistaken.
Craig’s reminder about the issue of the ‘youth ministry’ website at GC03 time is also worthwhile, and wasn’t it VOL that broke that story? - which was then quashed awfully fast.

[13] Posted by TACit on 08-10-2006 at 01:05 AM • top

Gregg,

Excellent post, thanks for sharing it.

It calls to mind the Apostle Pauls exhortation in 1Cor 10:13 ... “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

The attraction and desire for sexual relations with members of the same sex is simply a “temptation” that is “common to man”. While it is not a temptation that I struggle with there are certainly others that I do struggle with on a daily basis. What matters the most is how I respond to those temptations. The most powerful part of this verse that encourages me daily is that God provides a “way of escape”.

In my walk with Christ I would hope that those who I am walking with in the church would love me enough to call me to repentance for those times that I have succumbed to temptations and have actually sinned. Only then, through true repentance can I obtain foregiveness and receive God’s grace and mercy to continue my walk with Him. In humility I am called to do the same for those who are struggling with their particular temptations.

Regards,
Conrad

[14] Posted by Conrad on 08-10-2006 at 06:09 AM • top

Greg, great find.  Thank you for posting this.

I have one little quibble, which I cannot resist.

I’m afraid that I do not agree that “There is a logical, perhaps inevitable progression in the reaction against a corrupt Church’s simony, legalism, and abuse of its power to bind on earth, to Luther’s unilateral assertion of faith alone, to Calvin’s stunning rejection of free will, to the long era of sudden salvation and easy grace, to the theology of anything goes.”

I think it is the Protestant emphasis on salvation by grace, through faith, and its emphasis on the corruption of the human will until it is *made regenerate* by Christ that allows us all to recognize that we are simply unable, of our own power, to conquer sin in our lives.

To say it a touch stronger—only when we recognize that we are powerless over our sin, do we sink our whole weight onto Christ.  The doctrine of the “lost will” of man is central to sanctification in a Christian’s life.

In short, we all need the 12-step program regarding our corrupt desires, and the first step is to admit our powerlessness over our sin, and throw ourselves on the mercies of God, every day.

That is my lone quibble in a sea of splendorous words and thoughts by David Hicks.

What an article!

[15] Posted by Sarah on 08-10-2006 at 06:10 AM • top

Conrad,
And so say all of us….aptly put, so true, so true for all of us, and I would say you have spoken for all of us.
In all this discussion let us keep this in the forfront of our thinking and expression.Except for the Grace of God, there go I.
Brian

[16] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-10-2006 at 06:45 AM • top

Greg,
Thanks for posting this.  I knew VGR was off the wall, but never thought it would be SO far beyond the pale.  Totally amazing.  Well, maybe not totally.

[17] Posted by Mark D on 08-10-2006 at 07:12 AM • top

Great article.  This speech is not new however and comments regarding the speech were all over T-19 several years back.  One of you researchers might want to look for comments made by Joanne Sampson (?) which were very interesting to read.  In addition there was an interesting post about an Asheville NC Church which had been moved to very liberal side of the isle. 

For those of you who think we are overreacting when talking about protecting our children from TEC,  I hope that you see where we’re coming from.  I also hope that you see that the argument that I’m in an orthodox parish therefore this doesn’t affect me is pretty weak and somewhat selfish.

[18] Posted by Lee Parker on 08-10-2006 at 08:52 AM • top

Wow, and I mean Wow, a tour-de-force.

[19] Posted by CStanford on 08-10-2006 at 10:33 AM • top

Great article. St. Paul’s would have been a lot better off in subsequent years had that gentlemen stayed on gaurd.


But the real story here may be Debbie Boone. She was such a squeaky clean singer, was she asking a rhetorical question or an affirmative statement? I have never before heard her name mentioned as a marker for the sexual revolution.

[20] Posted by Going Home on 08-10-2006 at 11:00 AM • top

Lee,

I can’t find the speech at T19—do you by any chance have a link or the “p=” number for it?

Thanks.

[21] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-10-2006 at 11:02 AM • top

Craig, I don’t believe the entire talk was posted.  For excerpts and comments I had to go to a white paper file to get some references.  Try 11/14/03 comments and Search for Robinson.  Also interesting comments 1/28/04 all day.

[22] Posted by Lee Parker on 08-10-2006 at 11:46 AM • top

I know this is off-topic, but I have raised this issue before.  For Jill, and others like her, what is the problem with the use of “violent” metaphors?  To plead offensive, feigned or otherwise is at best, utter nonsense or at its worst, obfuscation.  That has been my observation on these blogs and I am sticking with my assessment.

If one is so easily offended by violent metaphors then it would be best if they were very selective in reading the psalms, the prophets, OT history.  Come to think of it they definitely should avoid the Book of Revelations, certain passages of Paul’s and…..come to think of it a few sayings of Jesus.

When I became a deliberate apostate in ways during the so-called zenith of the 1960’s.  Of course, I was in the midst of the counter-culture dishonoring my parents, defying authority and into that whole sex, drugs and rock’n roll way of life.  Since the majority of the Christian message was relatively unilateral on these matters, God could not be a part of my chosen lifestyle.  I employed all of the rationalizations, no need to detail them.  My shock is that I’m hearing those some rationalizations from people wearing backwards collars and pointy hats.

When I was still in throws of “liberalism” of all sorts but beginning my journey back to God, I decided that only the NT was “reliable” and only certain parts of it.  It was impossible, so I thought, that the violent, vengeful God of the OT was not the same loving God of the NT.  Over time I found myself gradually accepting more and more of the OT but surely not all was to be considered the Word of God.

Like most of us who are being converted daily to the Lordship of Christ, I came to understand that it wasn’t the Bible that was changing, but me.  After studying history and many other things I have gotten to the point that I believe that God meant what He said through Holy Writ even the parts that our modern “sensibilities” stumble over. 

Frankly, I believe that God meant what He told the Israelites to do when he gave them the land of Canaan.  (So do Orthodox Jews) And, Jill, I mean this most literally, in unfortunate that Vicki Gene was not drawn and quartered at the time he made those remarks, or even earlier.  I’ll bet you beans to navy credits that sooner or later it will be revealed that VGR assisted some young boy in sharing his sexual gifts.

[23] Posted by Gayle on 08-10-2006 at 12:04 PM • top

Great post Gayle and there are many like us.  PS its not you changing, its your heart.

[24] Posted by Lee Parker on 08-10-2006 at 12:10 PM • top

A truly great piece of work that lays out the essence of the Gospel message of sin and repentence.  Why is this so hard for ECUSA to understand?  When Paul urges us to become slaves to righteousness—it’s not to punish us but to make us truly free.

Thanks, David, for writing so brilliantly.

[25] Posted by hanks on 08-10-2006 at 02:03 PM • top

It’s a fair question, Gayle.  I believe Brian was simply using a figure of speech.  I’ve used comparable figures of speech in moments of intense emotion, like saying to one of my children, If you do that again, I’m going to kill you.  I’m not proud of that confession.  I can’t envision Jesus saying the same thing had He been a father.
The phrase ‘drawn & quartered’ is graphic.  As Hicks explained, repetition numbs us to the sensibility of sin.  Does the repeated use of violent language numb us to acts of violence?  I think it can be contributory, though probably not as strongly contributory as the visual images of media.
I made the judgment call because I defend VGR against violence, be it verbal or physical.  I stand by my original judgment. 
Although I condemn VGR’s comments because they violate God’s word and His clearly intended will for us, I don’t presume to judge VGR’s immortal soul.  I’ll leave that to God.

[26] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 08-10-2006 at 07:49 PM • top

May I add that VGR is already condemned by God by His Word, surely this is so..He said these acts are an abomination to Him..You or I can’t water it down .
Brian

[27] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-10-2006 at 08:08 PM • top

I should have added, the way out is repentance and this VGR refuses to do, rather he glories in it.
Brian

[28] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-10-2006 at 08:10 PM • top

As a first timer for this site, let me be honest up front.  I was directed here from a liberal site which I treasure.

My main reason for showing up here is that I welcome dialogue (writing—responding—listening—being listened to).

I find myself in agreement with much of what David wrote—Jesus never just winked at sin but called for repentence.  I have found no one on any of the liberal sites who would disagree with that statement.  We’re all struggling with something as David pointed out.  No one gets ahead spiritually by simply caving in to sin much less by embracing it. 

Habitual sin can make us lose all sensitivity to it.  People who habitually tell lies damage their moral compasses to the point where north south east west—any direction will do if it serves the liars purpose.  Greed, pride, gluttony—certainly these sins have not disqualified men and women from serving as bishops—even if the bishop is an overgrown, money grubbing stuffed (purple) shirt—my point is that he/she is a practicing sinner—as are most of us—perhaps even loving themselves while knowing that spiritually they do not have it all together.

Now, I happen do disagree with one of David’s assumptions and that is that homosexuality is a sin.  But ... before we go down that road, suppose that I did agree, just for the sake of discussion—why get so exercised about someone who is honestly openly homosexual—and leave the corpulent, money grubbing, prideful and self righteous stuffed (purple) shirt alone?

Also, I wonder why David lays such a trip on Gene from remarks made many years ago—as if these few remarks serve to evaluate a persons life.  I know that depending on when the spotlight was on me I could either be described as great Christian or as scumbucket sinner.  In fairness to all, to summarize a person based on a small sliver of his life’s work seems biased and unjust.

To Brian—Gene is no exception as we are all condemned by God by His Word—perhaps the words that trip you up are “judge not that ye be not judged” and “forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us”—or the Word of God is a two edged sword (that is it cuts both ways).

[29] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-10-2006 at 08:53 PM • top

Almost Live—- want to know how to be totally alive?

[30] Posted by Christoferos on 08-10-2006 at 08:58 PM • top

Brian and Gayle et al,  we need to always be careful to be scriptural in all our actions.  Now drawing and quartering are not permited in the Bible.  Using th Old Testament as our guide then stoning is the proper form.  In the New Testament we are informend by the Lord that the old milstone around the neck is the way to go, and at the end of the Bible, swimming in the burning lake of fire is the scriptural form that will be used.  I know how frustrated the actions of VGR and his supporters makes us all boil, but we need to spend our time warning them of the fate that awaits anyone who refuses to repent, especially for leaders and those who teach others to do their sin, especially children.  So let us stick by the Biblical termonology.

[31] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-10-2006 at 09:41 PM • top

To almost alive priest,
I am a live priest.. apparently you did not read my last note about repentance, which VGR is not apt to do, this makes the difference between him/me/you..He glorifies sin, sorry I won’t have it.
Fr Brian

[32] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-10-2006 at 09:52 PM • top

Almost Live said “why get so exercised about someone who is honestly openly homosexual—and leave the corpulent, money grubbing, prideful and self righteous stuffed (purple) shirt alone?”

Well, Almost Live, one difference is that the Church is not being asked to bless the sins that have caused the “corpulent, money grubbing, prideful or self righteous(ness).”  I am assuming those individuals to whom you refer have not said that God thinks it is okay for them to be that way or that they do not need to repent.  Now if you know of some (purple) shirts who have now declared any of these actions as blessed, I would hope you would do your Christian duty and remind them that they are separating themselves from Christ by their actions. 

As to why David would bring up old words - where has Mr.Robinson said he repented of these words or denied them?  Did he do so somewhere and we have not seen it?  Could you show us where he has found a more excellent way and forgot to publish it?

[33] Posted by JackieB on 08-10-2006 at 10:05 PM • top

Hi, Almost Live Priest,

Thanks for dropping by the blog.

Re: “why get so exercised about someone who is honestly openly homosexual—and leave the corpulent, money grubbing, prideful and self righteous stuffed (purple) shirt alone?”

Well . . . because we’re electing a leader, who claims that his sinful behavior is in reality blessed and holy behavior.

Furthermore, he advocates developing rites for those who practice such behavior.

To me, if we elect a leader who is obese or greedy or proud—and he revels in any of those things, calling it a holy and blessed behavior, rather than confessing the sin and repenting and working hard to grow and change . . . and then advocates a “blessing for gluttony” or a “rite for solemnizing greed” . . . I think we would all be just as upset.

[34] Posted by Sarah on 08-10-2006 at 10:06 PM • top

Well said, Brian.

These folks who think that they can revise the faith handed down are simply dolts. Accept it and remain Christian, or go somewhere and found a new religion based on whatever. I have no problem with you founding a new religion, just don’t try to steal mine.

[35] Posted by Gulfstream on 08-10-2006 at 10:07 PM • top

Thanks to all for the responses.  I suppose if you agree with Gulfstream you now know that I’m a “dolt”—not sure if I should feel threatened or not ... moving along ...

Is it possible that we (and I do mean we) due to our own cultural acceptance of greed, corpulence, and pride have become insensitive to these sins?  The bishops who openly practice these sins have no need to advocate for them, they are already accepted—these are sins that one can practice openly and without shame and no one will say the first word (cast the first stone)—not even a “go and sin no more.”  Have we become blind to these sins?  Or is it that we struggle with these every day and make little headway so we say, “I know I’m proud and I’d like to quit but humility escapes me—I’ll probably have to privately make my peace with the way I am and count on God’s love—Jesus’ sacrifice—to get me through.”  Our church culture has truly made peace with these blantant sins and no one seems to give a rip.  It seems that some sins are OK. 

The ceremonies to ordain and consecrate the prideful, corpulent, and greedy are already in place—the “discernment process” clearly does not discern these sins to be of much consequence—in fact the better a priest or bishop is at property management the better—the value we place on property (all those canons and legal battles about “who gets to keep the stuff”) betrays a sin once received and already blessed.

[36] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-11-2006 at 02:40 AM • top

Dear almost alive priest,
If you were around the people I associate with, we have the freedom in Jesus to say to those to practice greed, corpulence and pride..“Hey brother/sister, lets have a talk…are you happy with what I see?? or is it something you don’t see, do you think Jesus would be happy with this: and we then begin to minister to each other.
If the problem is with purple shirts, pluck up the courage and ask for an appointment and tell him what is bothering you.  You never know he may accept what you are saying and thank you for it.
Otherwise he will continue in his sin if nobody tells him
Question..what is a dolt???not an Australianism.
Fr Brian

[37] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-11-2006 at 03:17 AM • top

Dolt: a dill or a drongo is about the same meaning;  not quite as bad as a dag!
What city are you in, (Fr.) Brian?
Whereas nearly all the comments have stuck to the case that Hicks makes, I was distracted by wondering how it was that even though VGR was known (at least by some) in 1992 to be so derelict, and despite the association of the OutRight website with VGR at GC03 time, and so on and on - it remains this hard to get the word out. Thanks to Lee Parker for the Titusonenine archival tip - re-visiting Joanne Samson’s long comment was thought-provoking as well.
In October 2003 Hicks stood up again for Christian orthodoxy, and got taken down for it by guess who:
http://www.ecusa.anglican.org/3577_21150_ENG_HTM.htm

[38] Posted by TACit on 08-11-2006 at 03:57 AM • top

Dear TACit,
I live in Canberra.now I know what Dolt means. thank you.
It is amazing what IT does and the net..it has grown so fast, that almost before you think, it has come back to you.
It is like Mrs Mathes blog…referring her to StandFirm helps get news to the right people.
Just thought,, because you knew what drongo means, you must be aussie too?
Brian

[39] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-11-2006 at 04:14 AM • top

Brian, we’ve been here 14 years so are nearly dinky-di sandgropers, I reckon cool smile - though we’re Yanks, and still learning to speak the language!:-S
I have thus watched in pain at great distance as the Church of my birth self-destructs and prayed for the remnant, and for the truth of what has been going on to be revealed.  All in God’s time, it seems.

[40] Posted by TACit on 08-11-2006 at 05:03 AM • top

Almost Live -

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the self-focused people who go through the discernment process talking about “my call” as if they owned it… or “my church,” or “my scriptures” for that matter.  There is idolatry running rampant in the church to its shame….

However, let us not smokescreen or obfuscate… what we are talking about is people who are repentant and who are unrepentant; the open celebration of what all the rest of Christendom, the whole communion of saints across time and space of history, has a testimony about the power of Jesus to transform our broken sexuality et al.  To suggest that this is no longer the Gospel is to change it.

I have heard this sort of argument many times before (often out of my own mouth when I was a teenager), that of “well, they have big problems too,” as if that somehow justifies my own behavior.  We are all condemned because of our sin, and it is only the shed blood of Jesus that has the power to retrieve us from a life of death.  To be snatched from the jaws of judgment by the judge should have a tranforming affect on our behavior.  When it does not, we confess it, we repent, and we get restored to right relationship with Christ as we (hopefully) grow into his image.  V.Gene is advocating open denial of the truths of God about right relationship with Him and with each other.  Simply because others have sins that the discernment processes do not unearth is not a basis for him to have authority to overturn the scriptures, which are univocal on the issue of homosexuality across a canon spanning many writers and many generations, not to mention the span of time across the last 20 centuries where the Church has been univocal.

For you to somehow try to make the case that because some people have the sin of pride or greed that is in secret, that it justifies the open promulgation of a lie as the truth, is some pretty shaky theological ground on which make a case for such an innovation as TEC is making in the area of sexuality.

[41] Posted by Christoferos on 08-11-2006 at 06:13 AM • top

Re: “The ceremonies to ordain and consecrate the prideful, corpulent, and greedy are already in place. . . . ”

Well, no, they’re not in place.  So far I haven’t yet seen such a ceremony.

You’re trying to make the point of “we’re all sinners, and we ordain sinners, so why focus on this one.” 

Well, because others are “focused on this one” and they desire to see both church and society approve it and name it a good thing.

That’s what this is about—gaining societal and religious approval for behavior that is sinful.

Furthermore, Episcopal clergy and bishops like nothing more than to drone on and on about materialism and money [and incidentally equate the two as the same as capitalism] so we have greediness covered, if only very inexpertly and callowly.  No, one can hardly turn around without hearing declamations about the wickednesses of pollution and public smoking, since generally speaking Episcopal sermons tend to agree with the current culture on what they deem to be sins and not sins.

No, the sin that our church culture has “made peace with” is the rampant and unrestrained sexual expression that our culture has decided is necessary to a happy personal identity.

[42] Posted by Sarah on 08-11-2006 at 06:34 AM • top

Thank you, Christoferos.  I would also add that one shouldn’t confuse the ministry of reticence with endorsement of a sin.  The sin of gluttony is apparent because it leads to obesity.  In interacting with fellow Christians who are obese, there are moments when it is appropriate not to mention it and moments to discuss it frankly.  Carefully chosen silence is not turning a blind eye; it is simply being attentive to the Holy Spirit’s prompting of when to speak out in love.  The same ministry of reticence can be applied to other sins;  I simply used gluttony because it is so obvious.

[43] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 08-11-2006 at 06:50 AM • top

P. S. I should add that if an obese cleric were to encourage a lifestyle of gluttony to a group of high school students, then he should be promptly challenged.

[44] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 08-11-2006 at 07:29 AM • top

***Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding*****

Christoferos & Sarah hit on this element and it’s time to pay attention because this is a great example.

Almost Live is using a variation on the “straw man argument”, which is one of those fallacies in logic.  It’s the classis gambit of redirection and some of you fell for it.  The goal is to get you off-topic and defend a position that you don’t really have.

The discussion on the table is “homosexuality”.  If you will notice Almost Live failed to address any of the points in David Hicks article that he disagrees with and present us with a similar exposition of why he does not believe that homosexuality is not a sin.  Moreover, if a behavior or action is not a sin, then it is something good and ordained by God.  I would love to see a logical exposition of why it is blessed by God.

I’m also curious about treasured liberal site he came from….I’m sure that they would just love to dialogue with me.

tongue rolleye

[45] Posted by Gayle on 08-11-2006 at 07:42 AM • top

Gayle,
Almost Live came from Fr. Jake Stops the World.  Good luck.

[46] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 07:45 AM • top

Thanks again to everyone for all the responses.  I looked up “dolt” on dictionary.com and found “a stupid person, a dunce.”  And, yes, the site I treasure is Fr Jake Stops the World.  I post there sometimes—read there often—there are a lot of our brothers and sisters in Christ who have been seriously injured by people with quick tempers, quick judgments, and little charity.

And there are some very wise and knowing people there.  But this is not to be a commercial for Fr. Jake’s.  I believe if anyone has followed my posts there, you will see a theme of “tone down the rhetoric”—the evil “they” are common garden variety sinners like the rest of us.  And always, “we’re all Christians, why can’t we discuss our differences.”

You all seem willing to discuss.  They are willing to discuss, why isn’t there more conversation among us?  Is it because we get our ego’s too much on the line—we want to say something clever, be right, impress our peers?  Pride, maybe. 

I promise I’ll get around to offering my 2 cents on the hot topic of why I no longer view homosexuality as a sin.  Maybe not today, but I will.

Gayle, I’m not clever enough to offer a “straw man” argument.  I’ll be as open as I can about my reasons for posting as I have so far ... I think that there is plenty of sin out there both among the leaders of the church and among the rank and file. 

Why has Gene Robinson’s consecration so deeply effected so many of us both for good and for ill?  What nerve has been struck?  The “gay” nerve really sets many of us off.  Not the pride nerve, not the gluttony nerve, not the greed nerve, not the divorced nerve, not the women priests nerve, not the boundary crossing nerve—you get the idea.

Sin is rampent in this country—epidemic—the rich are getting richer in many cases because they can afford the politicians who write the rules to favor the rich who give money to get the politicians elected?  The average poor person has even less in his pocket because the rich have legally gotten their hands on the little bit allocated for the poor.  And what they’re not getting, we’re spending to kill, torture, illegally imprison people who are tired of our hypocracy and bullying.  And we’re exercised about Gene Robinson?  Talk about values ...

[47] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-11-2006 at 01:16 PM • top

Thanks for your reasoned response, Almost Live.  Like you, I think that the rhetoric on all sides has become too strident at times.  And I think you’re right, we need to spend more time engaging with respect those with whom we disagree and less with those who are on “our side.”  Think we can work out something like the schools - an exchange “blogger” program?

[48] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 01:31 PM • top

Almost Live:  I’m astonished at your assertions in your final paragraph, which seem to be based more on emotion than data and logic.  Your view of the economy is more Marxist than not; the economy is not zero sum, and money is not allocated to rich and poor, but is created and earned by effort and the incentive to earn more.  You might benefit by re-reading Adam Smith.

[49] Posted by El Jefe on 08-11-2006 at 01:31 PM • top

Re: “. . .why isn’t there more conversation among us?”

Yikes.  Almost Live, didn’t you hear the mantra?  We’ve had dialogue for 35 years.  PLUS, for the past three years, people have been talking on blogs.

The end result of all of this is that I—and other reasserters—don’t share the same foundational truths, gospel, or worldview enough to come to agreement.

RE: “Why has Gene Robinson’s consecration so deeply effected so many of us both for good and for ill?”

Question already answered by several commenters and several times earlier in this thread.  No reason to repeat the answer, since you don’t seem to like it.

[50] Posted by Sarah on 08-11-2006 at 01:42 PM • top

Almost Alive Priest, if God says homosexuality is a sin, who are you (and the revisionists in TEC) to say it is not? 

You could only say this because you are blinded by your own sin.  Perhaps you are one of the 50% male/35male population hooked on internet porn, engaged in adultery, physical abuse, sexual abuse, etc.  The stats are no different between lay and clergy, churched and unchurched.  It’s my hunch that this is the cause of the majority of TEC bishops and priests being so paralyzed and limpid about the issues confronting the church.

You can only say homosexuality is not a sin if your natural mind has not been converted to a Christian mind with a ‘Biblical mindset’.

Perhaps you once believed, were converted, but you have put out your inner light with your unconfessed unrepented sin.  Then, you have, as Proverbs 4:19 and Romans 1 say, suppressed the truth of God in your mind and you are walking in darkness, acting and stumbling blindly in the dark, as a ‘Gentile’ again.

Repent, Almost Alive Priest.  Return to God in unconditional surrender.  He will have mercy and compassion and allow to become a Truly Alive Priest!

[51] Posted by Theodora on 08-11-2006 at 02:09 PM • top

C’mon, folks. I think Almost Live was most civil in his/her discourse with us here.  Sarah, maybe Almost Live hasn’t been blogging for 3 years like you have.  I think the call for “more conversation among us” was a genuine one as was the call to tone down the rhetoric.  And to say that perhaps this person is “addicted to porn” is beyond how I think we are called to respond when people are being respectful & polite.  Disagree we may - and should - but I think the personal sniping is a bad witness for our Lord and doesn’t advance the Gospel.

[52] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 02:22 PM • top

Perhaps, as clergy we should begin every sermon (or homily) with the mantra of AA,

“Hello everyone, I’m Chip, and I’m a sinner!” 

This might make recognizing the sinful tendencies within us and the sinful acts around us easier.  If we, as clergy and as part of a congregation keep ourselves reminded that we are all only sinners, saved by grace…and His grace alone…not of works, lest any man should boast, it would be a whole lot easier to keep ourselves and others from falling, and easier for those who watch us to realize the difference between ‘us’ and the ‘world’.

[53] Posted by Chip Johnson, cj on 08-11-2006 at 02:25 PM • top

Not a bad idea, Chip.

[54] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 02:36 PM • top

Floridian seems to be Sasha, but without all the extra !!!!!!!‘s.

Floridian, please try to tone your posts down a bit.  They’re getting more and more strident, and approaching downright rude.

[55] Posted by CarolynP on 08-11-2006 at 03:15 PM • top

GL+, I was not accusing Almost Alive of engaging in any of the behaviors I listed.  I was wondering at the apparent lack of moral terpitude and spiritual conviction from both Episcopal clergy and laity who prefer to ‘take no stand on theology, morality and Scripture’.

AND - I was just stating statistics, looking for possible reasons anyone in the clergy (who are supposed to love God AND His Word) would not believe God when Scripture says
homosexuality is sin.
AND - trying to look for a logical reason why anyone would believe it is not harmful when science, psychology and plain evidence of statistics show that it is.  One can only surmise the person who does not think smoking is harmful enough to quit despite warnings on every pack, has willfully blinded him or herself because as Scripture says,‘they are drawn away by their desires’

You think I’m being rude and unloving, but I believe it is more unloving not to confront sin and to pussyfoot around issues.  If Almost Alive is almost dead in an addiction or compulsion, it would be better if he got help and was able to walk the joy of freedom and holiness than for me to be polite and not mention the truth that many clergy are trappeded in very debilitating behaviors.

I intend to question EVERY revisionist and orthodox.  Thankfully, the Network clergy are facing up to their own sin, as the closing talk discloses.  All Christians need to maintain our spiritual lives as Philippians says, ‘with fear and trembling’ and continually face our sin.

The time for tea party politeness is over.  We need to care enough to ask why they have no moral, theological or Scriptural convictions.  It may be that they are protecting a wrong and addictive behavior themselves.  We have mentioned gluttony here today…internet gambling has not been mentioned, but it is a problem also.  College students have gotten hooked into gambling big time.
But internet porn is the biggest ‘drug’ of this century.  However, TV and movies we watch unblushingly today would have been porn when I was a child.  I do not have cable in my house for the reason that I don’t want to support the irresponsible media.  The soft porn on TV feeds into the harder stuff. I know preachers and choir members who have lost their marriages with this addiction.  Only in Christ can people be helped.

Internet porn draws in more revenue than pro sports annually.  Marriott, Yahoo and other well-known companies traffic in it. 

Porn in our homes is like having live rattlesnakes among our children.

I will remain rude, unapologetically, but I feel strongly that if a clergyman get his (or her - 35% of porn viewers are women)thrills form porn, they need to get help.

[56] Posted by Theodora on 08-11-2006 at 03:48 PM • top

Floridian – There’s no doubt that there’s plenty of sin on my plate. 

I’m sure you are aware that the more we open up, the more we reveal about ourselves.  Don’t you find it just a bit immodest to have suggested that for me to disagree with you is to disagree with God? 

I believe that one of the reasons Jesus reminded us to deal with the 2 x 4 in our own eye before we tried to deal with the speck in our brother’s eye is because he understood us.  Thanks for your input. 

Sarah Hey – I am a neophyte at blogging – only ventured into this realm in the last several months.  I realize that there are many people who have been at this for quite a while.  I’m just not one of them.

Do you find the labels helpful – reasserters vs reappraisers – liberals – conservatives?  I wonder to what extent they serve to drive us apart simply by using them.  I believe that parts of the Bible teach us that we are “in the same boat.”  We must learn to get along.  I believe “getting along” was high on Jesus agenda.

You and I agree that “foundational truths, gospel, or worldview” are some of the issues we have not been able to agree on.  I wonder if you would be so generous as to share your understanding of the seemingly incompatible views.

I’ll go first:  One of my “bedrock beliefs” is that we are all sinners.  I would hope that this would lead to humility in the body of Christ – and a realization that whatever truth we may claim we have it has passed through a sinful filter (that’s us).  Didn’t St. Paul have something to say about that?  Wasn’t that in his beautiful hymn to agape?

A second “bedrock belief” is God’s transcendence.  So much of God is mystery and is not known – by definition.  Sometimes I think that in our ego driven fascination with Jesus, we get a little too close to God for our own good – we lose the sense that Moses had to take off his shoes as the very ground (that’s dirt) was Holy.  He had to hide his face.  Too many of us are a little too familiar with the HOLY God.

I’m not speaking of you, personally … just trying to “go first” on a couple of basic points.  I’m not asking you to do anything I’m not willing to do myself.

As to those of you who joined in a plea for treating one another with dignity and respect, thank you.

[57] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-11-2006 at 04:32 PM • top

“Too many of us are a little too familiar with the HOLY God.

I can agree with you on this, for sure.  Part of the theology of east-facing altar vs an altar that faces the people has to do with the transcendence vs the immanence of God.  When all (including the priest) face the altar, we tend to think more about the holy, other-ness of God.  When we “gather around” the altar, we tend more to think of the presence of God in our midst.  Not promoting one or the other, just commenting on the possible theological implications.

And the sinner part, too - indeed!  I liked Chip Johnson’s suggestion (above).

[58] Posted by GL+ on 08-11-2006 at 04:48 PM • top

ALP, it is one of the CHURCH’s bedrock beliefs that ‘we are all sinners’, and furthermore, that we all stand in need of the grace of God to turn around our sin-filled lives, to come together and be the Church in the world (by grace, through faith).  If ‘we are all sinners’ is also one of *your* bedrock beliefs, then it ought to bring you into the fellowship of believers that share the rest of the hope stated in my first sentence.  On its/your own, your stated bedrock belief doesn’t necessarily mean much, because it needs grace to be effectual. A similar point for your belief in God’s trancendence.  This is a belief and a teaching of the Church - along with that of God’s immanence. God cannot be kept at arm’s length while we all dialogue our socks off.  God wants to be intimate with us and through us, and not in the way that VGR advocated in the talk in 1992 reported in the post that we are all commenting on.  To encourage anyone, especially youth, away from the direction that God calls us to walk in is seriously reprehensible, not cause for elevating the person to a leadership position.  Hence the Current Unpleasantness, which no amount of dialogue will repair.

[59] Posted by TACit on 08-11-2006 at 05:12 PM • top

Dear Almost Live Priest,
Thanks for elaborating your ‘bedrock beliefs’.
While most of us here do recognise that we are fallible and at best only know and see in part I don’t think that limits God from revealing Himself to us perfectly in Jesus Christ,at least that’s what I read in places like 1 John 1:1-18,which touch on not only on His transcendence but on His literally coming down to be one of us.
I’m no great shakes as a theologian but a couple of thoughts ring out here to me,that ‘the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,full of grace and truth’ and from my vantage point,rather than it being an ‘ego driven fascination with Jesus’ or being ‘too close to God for our own good’,it is a reality to be delighted in,to drink in.After all,doesn’t Psalm 34:8 say ‘taste and see that the Lord is good;how blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him’

[60] Posted by paddy on 08-11-2006 at 05:30 PM • top

paddy, you remind me of the Church fathers, what with your Scriptural references in each paragraph and all… one thing that is striking about theology written before the 19th century and theology written after it is the diminishing number of references to Scripture… no wonder people can wander off the Christian reservation….Rom 6:6

[61] Posted by Christoferos on 08-11-2006 at 06:11 PM • top

TACit - Do you remember the prophet Nathan approaching King David?  David thinks the prophet is being hypothetical in talking talking about the lamb being taken from the poor man by the rich man.  Feeling O so SECURE, David pronounces judgment on the rich offender.  Then Nathan tells the King, “Thou art the man.”

It appears to me that you’d like to assume that in this example, Gene Robinson is king David and so Nathan’s tale to him would be, what should we do with a man who delibertly and knowingly leads children into sin?  And Gene (like David) takes the bait and suggests some harsh punishment.  And then Nathan says, “Gene, thou are the man.”

But what if Nathan were to ask you and me about people who used God’s holy word to prey upon a small minority of people whom God had made different and whom God loves deeply—used the very Word of the loving, forgiving God as a club with which to beat, discriminate, and persecute this especially loved minority.  So who is “the man?”

When I use my sinful apprehension of the mystery of the Word to put down people who disagree with me, then I AM THE MAN.

When you do, then you are.

It is no revision of scripture to suggest that God is always for the weak, always for the outcast, always for the people on the edges always for those whom society rejects.

Abraham gathered them, Moses rescued them, the prophets demanded justice for them, Jesus chose them, included them, wined and dined with them, defended them—and then died for us all.  This is the life that God has raised.  This is resurrection life.  Not a word of revisionism to it—it’s the old time religion of the Bible.  It’s about as ORTHODOX as one can get.

[62] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-11-2006 at 06:17 PM • top

Comparing -Gene to David is quite a streach. No wonder you characterize yourself as “almost alive.” Wish you could provide some more substantive evidence of your faith.

[63] Posted by Gulfstream on 08-11-2006 at 06:29 PM • top

I’m still here.  May God continue to Bless and Keep you.  I mean that Gulfstream.  God bless you.

[64] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-11-2006 at 07:30 PM • top

ALP: re your last paragraph of your last post.  Yes, Christ did eat with sinners,tax collectors and prostitutes, with the lost and discarded.  Yes, he chided the Scribes and Pharisees and Saduccees, the pretenders and the unrepentant, and upheld the downtrodden.  He also said “Go, and sin no more”.  Along with inclusion comes transformational love of Christ.  It involves a turning, from down to up.  Bonhoffer points out that when Christ calls a man, he bids him come up on the Cross, with all that entails. Just saying, “I love you, man” isn’t enough.  Repentance means turning around, going from upside down to right side up. Paul writes to the Ephesians “By grace are you saved, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should
boast”.  We also must remember that “..Faith without works is dead”.  Certainly we minister to all of these; but Christ demands nothing less than full repentance.

[65] Posted by El Jefe on 08-11-2006 at 08:18 PM • top

Re: “Sarah, maybe Almost Live hasn’t been blogging for 3 years like you have.  I think the call for “more conversation among us” was a genuine one as was the call to tone down the rhetoric.”

GL, I was answering his question about why there is not more conversation between us.

Re: “Sarah Hey – I am a neophyte at blogging – only ventured into this realm in the last several months.  I realize that there are many people who have been at this for quite a while.  I’m just not one of them.”

Again, I was explaining why there is not more conversation between reasserters and reappraisers.  The answer is that we have had *loads* of conversation, enough to clarify that the two sides in the church don’t share the same foundational truths, gospel, or worldview.

I have no need or desire, ALP, to convince you of my worldview.  It would take far more than words to convince you—it would take being born again, a conversion of dramatic and miraculous efffect. [The same could also be said for me.]  Once I recognized that our differences in the church were not based on minor disagreements but major foundational differences, I recognized that all the dialogue in the world could not change the two gospels with which we view the world.

Re: “Do you find the labels helpful – reasserters vs reappraisers – liberals – conservatives?  I wonder to what extent they serve to drive us apart simply by using them.  I believe that parts of the Bible teach us that we are “in the same boat.” We must learn to get along.  I believe “getting along” was high on Jesus agenda.”

I find labels to be strikingly helpful.  They merely serve to describe clusters of distinctives and descriptors in a very useful shorthand. 

In short, they are . . . *words*. 

That’s what big-concept words do.  Were we to do away with labels, we would have to spend many, many, many more words to merely describe the same clusters of distinctives and descriptors. 

Furthermore, labels merely serve to illuminate the deep and striking divisions that already exist *prior to the label*.  A good label illuminates pre-existing reality. 

Re: getting along.  I am more than happy to get along with people.  I get along with innumerable clusters of types of people on a daily basis.  However, getting along does not mean denying the fact of the two competing, opposing gospels that exist—unfortunately—within one church.

I am more than happy to chat with people about tennis, and cooperate for common causes, and hike, and drink lattes together—minor insignificant and human interactions that make up cooperative culture.  But on something as important as the church, I really need a “common cause”, and we simply do not have that—we do not share the same mission or message.  There will be no unity with those two gospels in one organization.

Regarding bedrock beliefs.  I do not believe, for just one example, that “God had made different” homosexuals.  The world, the flesh and the devil developed same-sex attraction, not God.

I believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not at all one of inclusion, acceptance, and affirmation, but rather one of submission to God’s grace through His atoning and substitutionary work on the cross [without which there would be no acceptance], conversion of heart, repentance, and transformation of life through the Holy Spirit.

I do not believe that reading and learning about God’s will for humanity through His word written [and yes, I believe that it is HIs word written] and communicating that to others is using it as “a club”.  Instead I believe that His word written is our primary authority in life and in the church and is the lens through which we view and judge culture, rather than vice versa.  I believe that God communicated His truth—all that we need to know about Him—in that word written. 

I believe that the rebellion against the teachings of God in scripture that ECUSA has demonstrated over the past years in regards to sexuality, the qualifications of leaders, the authority of scripture, the nature of the sacraments and open communion, church discipline, the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the way of salvation, the need for HIs atoning death, and many, many, many more symptomatic issues are church dividing issues.

The fact that they are church dividing by their nature has led to the deep and real division over the past years.

I could go on, but won’t . . .

Again, I am more than happy to hang out with atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, reappraisers/liberals etc, etc,—go running with them, look at gardens, watch films, have neat discussions.  But there will be no communion, ultimately, between the two gospels within our church.  That fact is stressful, tragic, sad, painful—all of those things. 

I do believe that resolution will occur and both sides will move forward with their respective missions and messages.

[66] Posted by Sarah on 08-11-2006 at 08:23 PM • top

ALP,thank you for the compliment,it’s an honor I don’t deserve,to be counted with the great saints of days past.I’m a bit befuddled by your citation of Romans 6:6 and subsequent comment regarding people wandering off the ‘the Christian reservation’however.
I would make a comment regarding people wandering off,of the places I’ve seen in the NT where people have ‘wandered off’ from Christianity three places stand out;1 Tim.6:20-21,where people have bought into ‘the irreverant babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge’.Verse 21 in the ESV puts it very well there,‘by professing it some have swerved from the faith’,the second place is 2 Tim.2:16-18,‘irreverent babble’ is mentioned again and is described as leading people into ‘further ungodliness’,eventually to ‘swerving from the truth’ in verse 18.
Finally,2 John 9 where some go past the teaching of Christ(and the church)and are shown to not even have God,just a bogus teaching;I believe these are the same who John describes in 1 John 2:18-19 as ‘antichrists’ who ‘went out from us,but they were not of us’.

[67] Posted by paddy on 08-11-2006 at 09:37 PM • top

“...using the Bible as a club against those who disagree with us…”  No, it doesn’t matter if anyone disagrees with me, but when God says homosexuality is a sin and anyone says it is not they are calling God a liar.  We had better warn them that this is the characteristic of Satan and his children.  “Yea hath God said…”  Woe to those who call good evil and evil good.  Take this as a warning.

[68] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-11-2006 at 09:47 PM • top

Sarah:

Thanks from a friend in the Houston area.  You said what I was thinking but could never have said so well.

“Repent and Believe…”
...jim

[69] Posted by Wilkie on 08-11-2006 at 10:18 PM • top

paddy- I referenced Rom 6.6 and talked about wandering off the Christian reservation (referring to Almost Live’s theology of sexuality).  I am offended that you would begin to confuse me, one who knows how to fero christo, with Almost Live… as reasonable as he seems to be, we are very, very wide apart on the “God made homosexuals different,” theology. 

ALP - Yours is an incarnational theology which Rowan Williams himself has critiqued, that of blessing the natural state in which one finds oneself, someone else or something in Creation as though he/she/it were made by God that way intentionally.  Rowan Williams is very Augustinian in terms of his suspicions about the reasoning behind this theology; as much as he is critical of the proof-texting conservative, he is blisteringly critical of the theologies of people like the new-PB for having wandered off the Christian reservation.

To give special status to homosexuals as people who can embrace the natural state in which they find themselves seems to give license in a way that none of the rest of us in the communion of saints across the boundaries of time have ever had.  This seems to be an idolatry on the left (sorry for the label ALP).  By raising homosexual self-actualizer onto the pedestal of “persecuted through no fault of their own,” liberalizing agents have the opportunity to pat themselves on the back for being more hospitable than other Christians, more involved in activist social justice, etc.  To suggest, however, that the most pressing social justice issue is for a sexual self-actualizer to become consecrated as bishop or have their extra-biblical relationship blessed, is ABSURD, and the victims of injustice everywhere would be crying loudly about how absurd this is if they weren’t already so focused on REAL INJUSTICE.

Of course, what follows should go without saying, but sadly, fundaliberals are not capable of distinguishing between an orthodox Anglican and Jerry Falwell.  We all agree that under the politics of liberal democracy, all people have the right not to be violated of their civil rights, but again, to suggest that it is a pressing justice issue (as Frank Griswold has said), to make sure their are actively gay bishops in the house of bishops, against the expressed will of the whole Anglican Communion, let alone the rest of Christendom, isn’t rational or reasonable even if you throw out scripture and tradition.

If I were to sexually self-actualize based on the natural state in which I find myself, I would go live in Vegas, but I would not expect to return unrepentant from there and then be made a bishop.

Perhaps, in this age of “Vegas” culture having become synoymous for America as far as the rest of the world is concerned, we should have a clown from their representing our national church to the rest of the world.

Emperor… please put your clothes back on.

[70] Posted by Christoferos on 08-12-2006 at 09:13 AM • top

In my last post “their” equals “there.”  I was typing fast; or it could be an indication of my neanderthal ignorance.

[71] Posted by Christoferos on 08-12-2006 at 09:18 AM • top

Dear Christo,my humble apologies,it was late,I am dense on occasion.I did think it was somewhat incongruous coming from him cool smile

[72] Posted by paddy on 08-12-2006 at 09:20 AM • top

Thank you for responding so promptly to my mock offense…  wink

[73] Posted by Christoferos on 08-12-2006 at 09:23 AM • top

You’re welcomed,it lessoned the prodigious folly of my misguided missive gulp

[74] Posted by paddy on 08-12-2006 at 09:44 AM • top

Dear Almost Alive

It seems you have misread my post, for I did not say or imply that to disagree with me is to disagree with God.  I was trying to say: to disagree with what God says in Scripture about homosexuality is to disagree with God.

While I am capable of sin, and capable of sin, because I have been given a new heart, sin is no longer is desireable, satisfying, pleasant (for long) to me, because of the (unceasing)convicting work of the Holy Spirit that (finally) brings me to repentance and helps me turn from sin.  Also, having tasted the pure love, joy and sweetness of Christ, the lure of sin has been diminished.  I don’t want anything to keep me from that joy.  I’m grateful, thankful, dependent upon God’s power and grace to transform me little by little as I trust Him more and more. 

But I must seek to feed and increase the Holy Spirit’s presence in my life by prayer, worship, Bible study (a form of ingesting the very power of God - the Logos).  Jesus said in John 5:37-47 that Logos and Agape must live in us.  He said ONE THING is necessary, Luke 10:42 (to attend to his words)  rather than hanging at bars and brothels. I have to watch and pray, to catch my thoughts before they become actions.  This is ‘guarding our hearts’ (Prov 4:20-27) and ‘in all our ways acknowledging Him’ (Prov 3:5-6)

The Christian’s mandate is to walk in the Holy Spirit, to conform to and agree with God’s Word.
It is also necessary to recognize that we are powerless to do so, that Christ has overcome the power of sin for us and will stand in the gap between our weakness and His overcoming. 

Usually when we disagree with God’s word, we are in rebellion, defending one of our pet sins or those of someone we love.  While we are indeed powerless over sin, Jesus Christ is not - He has broken the power of sin and will intervene for us when we call and depend upon Him in our weakness.  He is ‘able to save to the uttermost’ (Heb. 7:25, II Cor. 12:9-10)

As, I think it was Paddy who said, ICor 10:13 says ‘God will make a way of escape’ and as Jude says, ‘...he is able to keep us from falling’
Our part is to love Him and worship Him with all our hearts, withholding nothing.  Definitely a bargain.

The Church spends too much time defending the devil’s territory in our lives instead turning from it and calling on God to help us and our fellow Christians to pray with us.

The real Church will bear one another’s burdens and when we are serious, give Him control, God will heal us.

AAP, I know what I’m saying, I have Rock-solid experience and evidence that the promises of Scripture are real, powerful and alive.

He says, ‘if I do not wash you, you have no part with me’.  He teaches and enables us to love truth and truly love. It’s a very hard school but worth the tuition, anything I’ve ever given up was dung compared with the exchange.

Facing our sin is the hardest most painful part but, worship and communion with the Living God in the beauty of holiness (freshly clean before Him)is beyond any other thrill life can offer.

best blessings to you, Almost Alive. I apologize to you and to Carolyn P for my insistence and passion, I don’t mean to judge or condemn but to warn the Church, both revisionist and orthodox of danger. 

Over half of Westerners are addicted to something, the Church is not statistically different. 

Addiction is tantamount to adultery, in the marital sense and idolatry in the spiritual sense. 

Addiction is slavery that is as degrading and destructive to our humanity and painful for those who love us as was pre-civil war slavery.  For instance, an alcoholic parent affects seven generations, it is said in therapy circles.

[75] Posted by Theodora on 08-12-2006 at 10:58 AM • top

Amen, Floridian.  There is one permissible addiction and slavery—being slaves to righteousness.

[76] Posted by hanks on 08-12-2006 at 11:20 AM • top

One again thanks again for the posts.

There is a lot of good gospel in what you are sharing—well thought out and well articulated.

Are you lining up behind the statement that “homosexuality is a sin” because the Bible says so.

Are you lining up behind the statement that the Bible is never wrong?

I would like to address your beliefs—as Sarah says “foundational truths”—basic assumptions about the Bible.  I do not wish to put words in your very articulate mouths—create a “straw man.” So what (as you see it) is the nature of the Bible’s authority and inspiration.

As I understand from my short foray into cyberspace, revisionists are seen to be undermining Scriptural authority.  When this charge is leveled I hope more is meant than “revisionists disagree with the way that the Bible has traditionally been interpreted.” 

I’m not very convinced by the argument “we think homosexuality is a sin because of some specific passages we read in the Bible—and most Christians (a vast majority) agree with us. Therefore, majority rules, we’re right and revisionists are wrong.  God must be on our side because we outnumber you.”

So what (as you see it) is the nature of the Bible’s authority and inspiration.

My answer is straight out of the catechism.  What’s yours.

[77] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-12-2006 at 04:15 PM • top

Thanks for excellent points made by Gulfstream, El Jefe, Sarah, Christoferos, Paddy and Floridian in response to ALP’s comment addressed to me.  For reasons unknown except to computers I couldn’t access the comments for a day or so. Thankfully you all responded more usefully, and charitably, than I might have to the thinly veiled suggestion that faithful Christians are as guilty of homosexual-bashing as David was of killing Uriah…..
It is incomprehensible to me that anyone could fail to see the wrong in VGR’s addressing high school students as David Hicks reports that he did in 1992. Hicks saw and felt the wrongness of it clearly enough to write his ensuing article posted here. That is the issue, that at least as long ago as 1992 it was apparent that VGR was simply up to no good, yet he managed to head up a movement to de-sensitize faithful Christians of all ages to the soul-destroying sinfulness of homosexual practise, and that movement continues. ‘Dialogue’ is little more than a tactic in that movement; talk about something disgusting and objectionable long enough, and you may become de-sensitized to the wrongness of it.
ALP, it isn’t clear if your moniker means you are almost through seminary, or some other state of being almost ‘live’, and one wonders if others can take hope or should despair in the modifier ‘almost’.  In any case, you are quite a stirrer.

[78] Posted by TACit on 08-12-2006 at 04:45 PM • top

Almost Alive,

Lets cut to the chase. I can disagree but respect those honest Priests who argue that homosexual activity is not contrary to God’s will because Holy Scripture, read as a whole, is an unreliable source of Truth on the issue. What I find very difficult to stomach is those Priests and Bishop’s who claim to the uninitiated that they believe in the authority of Holy Scripture but that it has simply been misinterpreted or improperly translated in this instance.

And it is hard to imagine a worse sin than that of a Priest, Bishop or Deacon who, carrying the authority of a clerical collar, would lead our children astray in this area. 

And astray some were led. If you are familiar with St. Pauls, you will note what happened at this historic school, in particular, the headmaster, an Episcopal Bishop and the “Assistant Rector”, both of whom were, I believe, hired about the same time this Priest left.  During their tenure, the school was rocked by a wide range of scandals, all characteristic of an institution whose leadership had lost its moral compass.

[79] Posted by Going Home on 08-12-2006 at 05:46 PM • top

From the “another county heard from” category…

“Are you lining up behind the statement that the Bible is never wrong?”

I don’t know about the rest, but that is what I believe.  We may take a certain passage in the wrong way, and there have been endless discussions and studies and theses &c about this passage or that passage or another passage.  What is NEVER wrong is the message and “foundational truth” found in Scriptures.  You may think you find a contradiction in the Bible, but if you seek the underlying truth, you’ll find there is no conflict.

The Biblical model for a life-long relationship between persons in partnership is that of a man and a woman.  That is the relationship that is honored time and time again throughout the Scriptures.  The “same-sex” relationships that are touted as examples of blessed love (Ruth and Naomi, David and Jonathan)were obviously not the lifelong partnerships and the “two becoming one” that is referenced over and over again.  The underlying truth, physically, emotionally, and relationally, is that man and woman were created to be together.  There is a created, planned symbiosis that is not present in a same-sex relationship.

OK, for me it boils down to “what is the Truth (with the intentional capital T) found in the body of scripture?”  I cannot find that homosexual relationships are blessed or modeled in Scripture.

The other question - is this any worse than any other sin?  NO, not at all - but this is the one that is being presented as NOT-SIN - in my mind, an attempted revision of the intent and TRUTH found in Scriptures for thousands of years.

[80] Posted by GillianC on 08-12-2006 at 05:57 PM • top

“Almost Live” is a name I ripped off from a local honky tonk band (never been) that I see on a roadside sign that I pass every day on my way to my JOB (secular).  I was full time in parish ministry for some 20 years before burning out/dropping out.  I am presently priest-in-charge (Sunday’s only) of a small, rural congregation.  I find God working through these wonderful people (their kindness and compassion) and bringing me to a state of spiritual health which “almost live” suggests.  As I am up a bit in years (62), I prefer “almost live” to “almost dead.”  Please don’t take me too seriously, I don’t.  I do, however, take seriously the work of reconciliation to which every Christian is called.  Thus, my stirring presence.

If reconciliation is the “gay agenda” then I’m for it.  It’s no tactic, however, it’s a mission that I trust we share.  Do we?  or has the BCP got it wrong?  Genuine question, not trying to be perjorative ... some people believe that Christ’s work (our work) is more about getting folks “saved” and less about getting us reconciled.

As a step towards reconciliation, I would like to hear what assumptions you bring to the the Bible.

Please understand that I know we are not to be reconciled to sin—you can rest assured that I “get it.”  We sinners are, however, to be reconciled to God and each other in Christ.

TACit—King David did have Uriah slain in a dastardly and cowardly way.  Some of our “faithful” (the saw themselves as faithful) Christian brothers and sisters have killed GLBT people, beaten them, robbed them, denied them of their civil rights, gotten then fired from jobs they did well and loved, used violent speech against them, purposely spilled communion wine on them, refused them a place at the Lord’s table.  These hate crimes (usually committed by people who mistakenly regard themselves as acting at God’s direction) are no less dastardly than the killing of Uriah the Hittite on orders given by King David. The people in the GLBT community bear the scars on their backs and on the souls.  Our Church—the Christian Church has an atrocious record of supporting the killing and persecution of GLBT people that goes way back in documentable history.

I “stand firm” in the accuracy of the comparison.

On a more pleasant note, I wish everyone a blessed Sabbath.

[81] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-12-2006 at 06:14 PM • top

Timothy—thanks for your thoughts.  I’m sorry but I am not familiar with the situation at St. Paul’s.  I would join you without reservation in opposing any abuse of power—especially by us round collar types.

As reported by David Hicks, I probably would have said something to Gene Robinson myself if I had understood him as David did.  I can see asking children to love themselves in an effort to build their self esteem.  I would not (at their age) encourage any kind of sexual exploration.  Raging hormones being what they are, if I were to speak of sex at all, it would be to remind them that raging hormones are not the best guide to wise and godly decision making.  I have no reason to doubt David Hicks reporting.

I have no doubt that all those whom we place on pedistals have feet of clay.

[82] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-12-2006 at 06:27 PM • top

GillianC—thanks for dealing with my question.  I really appreciate that.  Your points about heterosexual marriage are right on target and fairly stated. You are also right to point out that Scripture neither forbids nor comments on same-sex marriage.  It is silent on the subject. 

I would join you in upholding the idea that the foundational truths of the Bible are never wrong—they are universal.  My reading of scripture is that there are passages which contradict the foundational truths which ARE NOT easily reconciled with the foundational truths.  In these cases, I believe it is incumbant upon us to uphold the foundational truths.

My hope is that if we can identify the foundational truths, we can become reconciled.

Three foundational truths that apply to homosexuals are:  1) God’s creation is good.  2) God’s justice applies to all people, and 3) God’s love of oppressed minorities (that one goes all the way back to Abraham).

I believe that Jesus helped to spell these out for us with his persistent inclusion of outcasts, his demand for love that went beyond what we think of as fair and his genuine fellowship with people that the “righteous” defined as sinners.

[83] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-12-2006 at 06:59 PM • top

Refusing an active, unrepentant homosexual to a place at the Lord’s table is not a “hate crime,” as far as I am concerned.  It is pastoral ministry completely consistent with our church’s own canons and THE Church’s own tradition.  To list it as a hate crime, one would have to have a different theology of the Lord’s supper than Augustine, Cranmer, and Hooker.

As far as biblical interpretation on the presenting issue is concerned, I will get into that later (I am finishing up a sermon for tomorrow), but for now, I hope it will suffice to quote the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord George Carey, from his speech this May at VTS, to continue the conversation: “The bible is unequivocal in its condemnation of practising homosexuality. It cannot be dismissed as having no consequence for us today. The matter is far more than the interpretation of a few Old Testament verses but includes significant Pauline texts that are central to the classical interpretation of sin and redemption. I cannot see any justification for bypassing Paul’s teaching in Romans I, concerning homosexuality physical relationships, as irrelevant to our times, or as a cultural equivalent to women wearing hats in church. It is a timeless commentary on the power of sin when people turn away from God.”

[84] Posted by Christoferos on 08-12-2006 at 07:00 PM • top

“Three foundational truths that apply to homosexuals are:  1) God’s creation is good.  2) God’s justice applies to all people, and 3) God’s love of oppressed minorities (that one goes all the way back to Abraham).”

I agree there, and that is where we part ways.  If a person is attracted, sexually, to a person of the same sex, I do not believe that this is God’s plan for them,  nor do I believe that a person’s sexual orientation is an identifier of that person.  God did not create “a homosexual”, he created a person.  I am a healthy heterosexual, and am not married.  I do not identify myself by my sexual orientation, nor do I use my “natural” urges to justify sin.  My calling is to NOT submit to my worldly body, but to be transformed.  Now, I do have the option (some might say), to remarry and have an intimate relationship.  Others might forbid, since my ex-husband is alive.  Either way, my sexual identity does not define me, nor should it rule my behaviour.  I should not choose to get married (and therefore have a “legitimate” sexual relationship)or not to get married because of my sexual desires, but because it is what God would have me do (or not do), and I know and trust that His will is the best for me.

Jesus indeed included outcasts and sinners, saying that a physician is not needed for the healthy.  It was not only the “righteous” who defined these people as sinners, but Jesus Himself.  What you see is a long list of transformed lives, not people saying, “Jesus ate with me, therefore it must be OK to be a prostitute.”  THAT is what the “righteous” saw - Jesus condoning sin.  That is NOT what he was doing - he was offering a way OUT of the sin, and into closer relationship with the Father.

Well, I have two noisy grandkids in the background, so that is enough deep thinking for the evening (and may explain some of the quite simplistic reasoning).

Good chatting with you!

[85] Posted by GillianC on 08-12-2006 at 07:35 PM • top

Christoferos—I’m working on Ephesians for tomorrow’s sermon—couldn’t help but notice in light of your characterization of refusing an unrepentant homosexual communion as a “pastoral” matter—couldn’t help but noticing from John “... and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away:”  While Jesus goes on to talk about “the last day” I believe there’s enought gospel there to apply to today and tomorrow, too.

I am familiar with BCP p 409—disciplinary rubrics.  I find them to be one of the least inspired parts of BCP.  The Lord I know and love says feed my lambs, guard my flock ... I am the bread of life ... and I can imagine him adding—let me and the Father do the sorting of sheep and goats—you sinful humans always mess up when given a little power. 

Trust my body and blood to bring about the changed lives that I desire—which are not necessarily the changes you desire.

[86] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-12-2006 at 08:15 PM • top

ALP,
“God’s creation is good.”  - When God finished creating the world He said it was very good.  And then He made man in His image so that was good but God’s image does not include disobedience.  Where is original sin and fallen man in your foundational truths?

“God’s justice applies to all people.” - God’s justice includes discipline and obedience.  Where is that in your foundational truth?

“God’s love of oppressed minorities” - And your descendents shall outnumber the stars in the sky.  God loves all people equally - whether they are wealthy royalty or oppressed minorities.  What do you believe Jesus spelled out when He included people like Nicodemus, Lazarus, Martha or Mary or the Virgin Mary (who then became an outcast)?  These were not oppressed minorities.  Yes, Jesus reached out to minorities and majorities, young, old, sick and healthy.  Are we forgetting that part of the reason the Pharisees and scribes were so upset is that his social calendar included all manner of man – and woman?

And, please, Jesus did speak on the issue of who should mate with whom.  Matthew 19:4-6 - He affirms the reading in Genesis and said, “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,‘and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’  So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Jesus’ demand for love includes every individual on the face of the earth.  And Jesus’ love for me is not greater or less than His love for you.  We are each offered the same gift and we can accept or reject it.  I don’t think you are asking the right questions.  The questions should be, Can we partially accept the gift?  Can we accept the gift and not the transformation that comes with the love?

Going back to your original questions posed to our dear Samari Sarah, if you condone and encourage my sin - regardless what that sin may be - you are a stumbling block.  Please, be my brother and urge me to walk through the narrow gate.

As to the hate you describe shown to your brothers and sisters, this is wrong regardless of who these individuals are.  I guess I have led a sheltered life.  Nowhere in my travels – here and abroad have I ever witnessed the abuse of homosexuals you describe.  But then I had my own problems from time to time - I was a young woman in a very male dominated corporate world.  I will ask my Jewish friends and my friends from Africa if they have ever witnessed such as this.  Man is not a perfect thing.  We are sinful and only God can redeem us.  I think part of the reason man does such terrible things to one another is two fold.  First, they have not accepted the gift.  The second is they did not accept the transforming love.

Peace and blessings to you.

[87] Posted by JackieB on 08-12-2006 at 08:16 PM • top

I guess I need to clarify the reference about the descendants outnumbering the stars - It was a reference to ALP’s statement that Abraham’s people were a minority.

[88] Posted by JackieB on 08-12-2006 at 08:20 PM • top

GillianC - good chatting backatcha!  When you get time—what is leading you to say that, “if a person is attracted to a person of the same sex, I do not believe that is God’s plan for them.”

Does that come because the Bible says so?  because that’s what your parents taught you?  personal experience?  science? acceptance of general beliefs of society?  Where did you get that belief—do you know?  You may not know, it may be something you have always believed and that is just fine—there is no right or wrong answer that I’m waiting to pounce on.  It is a widely held belief—is is just a belief, not anything provable either way—why do you choose to believe as you do about homosexuals?

When you get time.

I need to sign off for a while.  Lord willing, I’ll be back after church tomorrow.

[89] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-12-2006 at 08:31 PM • top

Hi ALP: What did Jesus also say, once the woman caught in adultery, came to him… he did not condemn her, but his parting pastoral advice was not “you’re going to be okay,” but “go and leave your life of sin.”  It does not do a brother or sister in Christ (or apart from Christ) a favor to give them the delusion of participation in the Eucharist.  Read Augustine on this… read Cranmer on this… read Hooker….

Even if you contextualize Cor. 11 as to diminish the “eating and drinking judgment” part, someone does not really receive the Body and Blood of Christ simply because they feel welcome at the table.  It makes you and I feel more comfortable not to have to ask someone for amendment of life before they come get bread and wine; but it is deceitful of us to give them the illusion of participation for our own peace of mind….

From BCP p. 873, (yes, mistakenly relegated to the “Historical Documents” section)

Article XXVIII Of the Lord’s Supper:  “The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another; but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ’s death: insomuch that to such as RIGHTLY, WORTHILY, and WITH FAITH, receive the same…. [sorry for the all caps—I don’t know how to do italics]...

Article XXIX. Of the Wicked, which eat not the Body of Christ in the use of the Lord’s Supper

“The Wicked, and such as be void of lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as Saint Augustine saith) the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ; yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ: but rather, to their condemnation, do eat and drick the sign of Sacrament of so great a thing.”

Please do not presume me to be one who “hates homosexuals.”  In God’s own book of those who “despise homosexuals,” you will not find my name.  I would never, ever be inhospitable to someone, anyone, who was honestly and sincerely coming to the waters of baptism or to the table with the intention of dying with Christ to live with Christ.  However, that is simply not the same thing as someone who comes to the waters of baptism, or to the table, publicly unrepentant.  Yes, indeed, there are people full of all manner of malice and wickedness who deceitfully come to the table in private unrepentance, and I undoubtedly serve them.  Their guilt is theirs, however.  If I knowingly allow someone to drink judgment, however, the guilt is mine, and I will be held to account.  Whoever knows that his brother is in sin and does not pull him out is no friend.  Leaving someone in their sin is no favor.  Blessing someone in their sin is no blessing.

[90] Posted by Christoferos on 08-12-2006 at 08:36 PM • top

ALP—

When you sign on tomorrow, I’d like to know your angle on Ephesians, just out of curiosity.

[91] Posted by Christoferos on 08-12-2006 at 08:38 PM • top

To Almost live and Gillian C.
Please ALP..I cannot understand why your questions to G..surely for you as a priest, the Word of God is enough, without the physical activity which is against God’s creation design, I find it preposterous that a priest could believe that God created sodomy…doing this, and with the same hands distribute the Bread of Life in Communion, makes me shudder and the thought of it makes me feel sick. Sodomy is NOT part of God’s created plan either by command or design surely.
Brian

[92] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-12-2006 at 08:56 PM • top

ALP -

The kids are in bed, the teenagers only mildly pressing for their “turn” on MY computer, and I have a moment or two to spare.

My belief that homosexual attraction is not in God’s plan comes from several sources.

The first is Bible- and faith-based.  I stated earlier that I believed that God, in Scripture, modeled the human sexual relationship by creating man and woman.  He created them specifically for relationship with eachother (secondary to His creation of mankind for relationship with Himself).  Their physical makeup, the now known differences in the psychological structures, emotional and spiritual differences were all made to compliment eachother.  I guess this also takes into consideration both traditional and obvious beliefs, as well as current discoveries about psychological patterns in men and women.

I have also known some of the difficuties that gay and lesbian folk live with, and do not attribute all of the agonies that they often deal with to homophobia or discrimination.  While I don’t live and move in the LGBT community, I do know that the people I know are often unhappy and dissatisfied with much in their lives.  I don’t know whether it is because they concentrate on their differences, or whether they are searching for something that they cannot obtain or…well, I am at a loss for a description, but suffice it to say that I don’t believe that it is something that God would choose for them.  I don’t believe that their “problems” would be solved if everyone would just accept the lifestyle and be OK with everything, because I believe that there is an intrinsic “wrongness” to it.

For what its worth, I hope that was somewhat helpful…..

[93] Posted by GillianC on 08-12-2006 at 09:03 PM • top

Dear GillianC,
Thank you for your post, so sucintly put and which I wholeheartedly agree with, you took the words out of my mouth. What you said is truely “Pastoral”
Brian

[94] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-12-2006 at 09:28 PM • top

Not being and Episcopalian, let me indulge in some judgmentalism.  ISTM that ALP is a kind hearted and sensitive person who has been in the ECUSA system a long time.  I venture that he went to one of their seminaries during the hippie sixties.  Not only was he taught the deconstructionism and disdain for the past and of the heritage of the orhtodox of the centuries but was taught the usual Marxism and exetential escape from reason, but he was not taught the Bible in its totality.  As a result he has not the tools and background to evaluate the present world, but his spirit would be beaten down.  Bishop Pike just before leaving for Palestine where he died told Francis Schaeffer that he wished he had met him in his youth.  He said that when he left seminary they gave him a few cold stones in his hand and nothing else.  He wanted to come back and spend some time with Schaeffer talking about the classical Christianity that had been taken from him.  This sad story has been repeated over and over and is the cause for us feeling sorry for thies priest who have been defrauded.  IMHO

[95] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-12-2006 at 10:21 PM • top

Prophet Micaiah, what an extraordinary story about Bp. Pike.  I had never heard that before and it certainly puts a different light on things.
You just said much of what I wanted to ask ALP and, since I’m already home after church while y’all slumber, I’ll await with you any reply he may make.

P.S.Is Micaiah a cross between Micah and Isaiah?  wink

[96] Posted by TACit on 08-12-2006 at 11:55 PM • top

TACit,I’ve read the same story from Francis Schaeffer’s writings.
Micaiah was,I believe,a prophet during or just prior to the exile of Israel.Could be wrong on the time.

[97] Posted by paddy on 08-13-2006 at 12:17 AM • top

Here is a start to getting better informed about the school mentioned in the post:


http://privateschool.about.com/b/a/127572.htm

http://dispatchesfromthevanishingworld.com/dispatch32/d32_1.html

  (mild yuk factor – good-news writing for alums)

http://listserv.episcopalian.org/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0409D&L=virtuosity&P=R383&I=-3

[98] Posted by TACit on 08-13-2006 at 02:18 AM • top

TACit—thanks for the links—I did read them this morning.  Greed, pride—loss of moral compass (widespread experimentation with drugs and sex) hazing—undisciplined permissiveness—the young people and their parents were indeed poorly served by the institution. 

Sounds like David Hicks tried to tighten down but lacked the diplomatic skills required to bring his reforms together.  Craig Anderson and the board of trustees failed to know the mind of the alums (the real power structure of the school).  Overpaid and primpy does not set the example a Rector should be setting.

The call about keeping the hazing scandal “in the family” certainly cuts both ways.  People want their privacy protected, their instutution protected—don’t want their dirty laundry aired—yet the failure to publicly confess is seen by some as moral laxity.

It’s too early to think clearly. I mostly just wanted to indicate that I appreciate the information.

Tough job, headmaster of such a place.

[99] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-13-2006 at 04:49 AM • top

TACit and paddy,  Micaiah confronted one of the most evil kings in Israel and rebuked a good king from Judah.  Read all about it in I Kings 22 and II Chronicles 18.  God trots out these obnoxious servants at the time of deep apostacy.  May their tribe increase.  Some churches are non-prophet organizations!

[100] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-13-2006 at 08:53 AM • top

My friends this has been interesting and even enlightening at times.  As is much needed by me, I have expanded my biblical knowlwdgw and been encouraged by the breadth of knowledge out there. 

However, ALP’s continual repetition of the same tired rationalizations and unending, insincere questions (over and over again) has made this seem too futile.  Funny, the sermon today was on patience, too.  I feel the “debate” for debate’s sake has over come any other reason for this particular blog.

I must leave you to “dicuss” and hope that hearts might be softened soon.  I must “dust off my sandals” and move on.

Vio con Dios ...

[101] Posted by Wilkie on 08-13-2006 at 12:44 PM • top

Prophet Micaiah—Sewanee 1973-1975.  First year whole bible. 2nd year church history.  3rd year, pastoralia and practicum—brass tacks.

While I often joke about the theological “cemetery,” I am thankful for the theological education I was offered.

If you’d like to know more about me, you don’t need to guess—just ask.

[102] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-13-2006 at 01:17 PM • top

Jackie—thanks for the chance to talk.  The three foundational truths I offered were not intended to be an exhaustive list.  If I were summarizing I’d probably go with:  Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all of they soul and with all of thy might.  This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Seems like we both left those off of our list.  Farther up this thread we’ve talked a good bit about the sinful nature of humanity—the need to take sin seriously.  We agree on so many of the basics—if I’m understanding you correctly.

With regard to Abraham, when God called him to leave initially—he only had a promise of being a great nation.  He broke away from whatever group he was running with (at least that’s how I imagine it in Bedouin society) and took his family and his stuff.  Understand my only expertise on Bedouin society is in my imagination (I did stay at Holiday Inn Express one time).  I was indulging my imagination in what seemed to me to be a reasonable speculation.  He started small and then God, faithful to His PROMISE, brought Abraham into the land of Promise.

As I recall from Old Testament classes, scholars tend to date the Abraham period to 1700 BC or so.  Slavery in Egypt, Moses, Exodux, Sinai came some 400 - 550 years later.  The folks who edited these stories into final form (probably Priestly writers) did so around 500 BC.  The dates provided are “scholarly deductions”—they’re not based on anything as definite as an archeological find. 

As I tell you this I am cognizant of the fact that most scholars can’t agree on when to “do lunch” let alone dates and theories, so I take it with a grain of salt, without wanting to disrespect in any way the professors who had dedicated their lives to this kind of study and offered me the fruits of their scholarship.

My point about Abraham was that regardless of the date, there were probably cities but Abraham appears to have been a nomadic (edges of civilization - outcast - riff raff) kind of guy—at least to the proper folks in the cities.  He became an outsider to his own small group of Bedouin families when he initially heard God’s promise and just up and left.  He is called the father of FAITH, I believe.

God has a heart for the outsider, for people on the fringes—people that most of US (certainly me included) tend to overlook.  We all “know” that God loves all of us.  Our human tendency is to understand that in terms of the folks we run with.

[103] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-13-2006 at 01:56 PM • top

Christoferos—Went with Ephesians because we are a small, rural, parish where everyone not only knows everyone’s business—but most are related in some way.

Old offenses, slights, insults—these die hard.  The reminders to be kind to one another, forgiving loving—to be imitators of God—these were the points that I hope moved us closer to Christ and to each other today.

[104] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-13-2006 at 02:10 PM • top

The two commandments of Jesus are certainly foundational commandments from Jesus.  We are to love our neighbour as ourselves and as you keep pointing out that includes the fringes, even, or especially, those who are at the (but not yet inside) the gates af hell.
As followers of Christ we are not to understand the above statement I’ve made with ‘our human tendencies’.  A life transformed by recognition and repentance of sin and acceptance of the transforming love of Jesus through His work on the cross helps us to see our human tendencies in their true light and leave them behind.  That, of course, is our life’s goal as we seek to wealk with Him, recognizing as we walk, what is sin in our lives, calling it sin, and with His help, leaving it behind.

I wonder if your often repeated “human tendency’ to forget certain ‘fringe groups’ is mostly a an unstated stament that we refuse to accept those of a homosexual orientation as not only God’s people on the fringe but that our human tendency is to insist on calling homosexual activity sinful. 

Ah, well, others have said it so much more eloquently than I earlier in this thread.

The two commandments of Jesus are not to be confused ewith the Great Commission He gave us.  This commission is to win souls for His Kingdom by presenting people with their desperate need for true repentance of their sins, giving them to Jesus where He has already taken them through His salvific work on the Cross, accepting His forgiveness and receiving His transforming grace to bring us to new birth in his Kingdom.  He is the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life.

[105] Posted by Bill C on 08-13-2006 at 02:30 PM • top

Christoferos—refusing LGBT people communion.  I have no doubt that many theological experts old and new would support such an act on “pastoral” grounds.

I don’t disagree with you and with them because of a need to feel comfortable or to be liked—would I be here if that was really one of my needs?

I don’t think you are a gay basher—at least not knowingly and intentionally.  What I do know is that people who are gay and who are working in all areas of their lives to surrender and conform to Christ’s love and teaching—have been DEEPLY HURT by such refusals.

It if is to make them repent of being the way they believe God has created them, it’s not having that effect.  The effect is pain, anger, humiliation—genuine wounds on their psyches and souls. 

You are undoubtedly aware of the pain you are meting out when you refuse a sincere Christian admittance to the table.  They are not going to repent of who they understand themselves to be. 

Suppose that you came to a parish and went forward to receive and the priest (with his pastoral HC experts all in mind) said, “No, you are a notorious sinner—you are known to have refused to serve people who God has sent to HIS HOLY TABLE for the Body and Blood of his Son.”

Would you refuse to serve me because I refuse to quit supporting LBGT people?  Because I do so publicly (notoriously) and in your eyes sinfully?

If you were to come to the parish I serve, I would not hesitate to serve you even though I STAND FIRM in my opposition to anyone who knowingly or unknowingly harms God’s children.  You will receive the Body and Blood of Christ and he will deal with you as he is dealing with me.

You and I are brothers in Christ, fellow sinners in need of God’s grace and mercy.

Before that we were simply fellow members of the human family—related by blood and by Spirit.

May God bless you in your ministry.

[106] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-13-2006 at 03:00 PM • top

ALP, Sewanee=72-75===I thought so.  Your piece on Abraham just illustrates my point.  The mess in ECUSA illustrates the problem with their seminaries.  Too bad.

[107] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-13-2006 at 03:12 PM • top

Re: “Three foundational truths that apply to homosexuals are:  1) God’s creation is good.  2) God’s justice applies to all people, and 3) God’s love of oppressed minorities (that one goes all the way back to Abraham).”

I note that omitted is this foundational truth: God’s creation was corrupted in every respect due to the willful sin of human beings.

[108] Posted by Sarah on 08-13-2006 at 03:34 PM • top

Dumb OX—in Jesus time it was believed to be a sin to drag a chair across a dirt floor on Saturday (Jewish Sabbath)—because that was considered to be plowing.  Please understand I’m using this as but one example of the laws that Jews in Jesus time were supposed to observe. 

Eventually the Christian Community led by the Holy Spirit said that Saturday or Sunday dragging wasn’t sin—it was just rearranging the furniture.  Many in the Jewish community at the time righteously disagreed.  To them Jesus was a revisionist, He changed the rules that were generally accepted in their community.

Anytime He is able to get our attention to see that we HUMAN AUTHORS have written a “bad rule,” He will lead us to change the rule—no doubt—whether it is written in Scripture or not.  Scripture is full of God’s rule changers.  Do you suppose the process stopped just because the “canon” was closed?

Actually those who study the canon know that it’s been changed in many and many places over time from what the original authors wrote.  And who says that the original authors were any more capable of listening to the Holy Spirit than we are today? 

The canon has changed and what the church has taught and believed has changed.  There is no such thing as the faith once handed down to the saints.  That dog just won’t hunt.  There is scads and scads (what is a scad?) of evidence to support my previous statement.  I trust most of you are already familiar with it.

Right now we are going through a revision of the church’s teaching on homosexuality.  It will one day be agreed that while homosexual people face some unique challenges in their lives—are subject to the same temptations that heterosexuals are—homosexuality itself is just one more way that people are created.

I do not wish to hurt anyone.  So far in my brief foray on Stand Firm I have been accused of being a dolt, of being insincere, or being addicted to porn, of having communist tendencies, of being soft on sin, of being unregenerate—if you have followed the posts, you know I’m not making this up—and I’ve only been posting here since Friday (I think).  Why is my presence so threatening to some?  I’m simply, boringly, persistently, repetiously, inviting you to think—and doing this by challenging some things that you seem to take for granted.  I’m not aware of having engaged in name calling, insult, derision ... I’ve tried to affirm what I can affirm, and to respectfully disagree when I can not affirm.  I don’t want to hurt anyone.

I also do not want to see our GLBT brothers and sisters in Christ hurt by well intentioned (but I believe misguided) fellow believers.

I’ve been as honest as I know how to be, straightforward etc. and I’ve caught a lot of grief for my trouble.

Do you have any idea of how so many of your pronouncements, judgments, words and actions have hurt your (our) GLBT Christian brothers and sisters?  Please look in the mirror—you are hurting people who have been hurt again and again by secular society.

[109] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-13-2006 at 03:58 PM • top

Miciah—If you have something better to offer vis a vis Abraham, bring it on?

I am not finding your cryptic judgments very helpful.  Please, if you have something better to offer, offer.  What is your take on Abraham?  You seem to prefer the mode of engagement of “drive by.”

Sarah Hey—The corruption of original sin applies equally to heterosexuals and homosexuals, does it not?  I see corruption in both groups as promiscuity, power abuse, etc.  I see homosexuality as part of the good creation that has fallen.  You see it as part of the evidence of corruption of an originally heterosexual population.  We disagree.

[110] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-13-2006 at 04:11 PM • top

Christoferos—a thousand apologies, I wrote that your were “undoubtedly aware” when I meant to write unaware.  I do not see you as intentionally hurting anyone and my words conveyed just the opposite meaning.  I am sorry.  Please forgive me.

[111] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-13-2006 at 04:20 PM • top

“Beloved…it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints….” From Jude 3.

Almost Live, thank you for your last post. The two paragraphs beginning with “Actually, those who study canon law…” reflect the divide that is behind the ongoing debate.  It begins and ends as a disagreement over the authority of Holy Scripture.  You dont believe in the existence of a faith once and all delivered by the saints, or what caused the Apostle Paul to urge Timothy to “guard the good deposit”.

You are willing to lay that out, and I appreciate it. I would much rather this debate be argued with people with your honesty and integrity.

There are, of course, those who studied Holy Scripture, and church history, over the centuries that understand that the Canon, in is original text, was inspired by God, and, as said in the 39 Articles, contains all things necessary for salvation and provides a guide for our personal conduct. We further undertand that we are bound by the moral commandments, but not by Old Testiment code inapplicable to Gentiles or which were clearly superseded by the New Testiment.

All I can say is that I ultimately found great freedom and peace in the security of the Word and the atoning death of Jesus Christ. He is Lord.

May God inform and bless you as you continue to seek His guidence. I will not be shy about proclaiming the Gospel, but I will not personally critisize someone who speaks honestly about what he believes, or doesnt believe, and is earnestly seeking. I am reminded of C.S. Lewis’s life.

[112] Posted by Going Home on 08-13-2006 at 04:53 PM • top

correction, delivered “to” the saints.

[113] Posted by Going Home on 08-13-2006 at 04:54 PM • top

Dear Almost Alive,

I did not say you were addicted to porn, I said that if a clergy or layperson in the Church did, could or would not see or believe Scripture’s Truth in this matter of sexual sin, they were probably either protecting a pet sin of your own (such as porn addiction in which 50% of Western males indulge, clergy included) OR were unregenerate, had not truly been converted.

Some very famous saints found themselves in the clergy without having been truly convinced or converted.  John Wesley was one, I believe.  Peter followed Christ for years before his conversion.  Paul was religious, but not spiritually alive until he personally met the living Christ. 

I’m not insulting, labeling or condemning you, just questioning you. 

Conversion is an mysterious act of God; it is the impartation of revelation, circumcision of the heart which allows one to ‘believe’ through the gift of the Holy Spirit Who reveals Scripture as truth.

Another problem I have with your position is that you persist in using the politically-contrived concepts GBLT, for human beings. 

This is a contradiction of both science and Scripture.

God only created man and woman, male and female.

Human psychological identity is a life-long process and changes continually. 

As far as identity goes, God requires that a person at conversion cast off the old identity and He begins to build a new one in Jesus Christ. 

God’s requirements and limits for sexual practice is clearly delineated in Scripture. 

We must bravely love those who have same-sex ‘feelings’ as much as God does when he firmly (throughout the whole counsel Scripture) sets the limits of sexual practice within faithful lifelong heterosexual marriage. Science has shown that this too is the healthiest (physically and psychologically)practice for both human adults and their families.

I have no hatred but rather real and compassionate love for persons who find themselves caught up in same-sex attraction.

Since GC03, I prayed, searched for truth about all this, studied psychology, social work, theology, attended seminars, read continuously to understand and prepare to show compassion and offer spiritual help. 

I believe Christ has called the Church to be a vessel of healing to the world caught up in so many addictions. In Western culture over half the population is addicted to a substance or behavior.

I do not believe the Episcopal Church was showing either true compassion for persons caught in sexual and identity confusion or true faith.  Affirming homosexuality prevents the person from experiencing Christ’s REAL REDEEMING LOVE!

The real causes of feelings of same-sex attraction are multiple and complex.  If you would take the time to study something other than GBLT propaganda, you would find that same-sex attraction is just another symptom, a sexual manifestation of multiple primary and secondary psychological and relational conditions or conditioning due to type A&B trauma: deprivation/abuse. 

I believe yours is a false compassion as well as a false faith.  You cannot be a true priest say there is no help for people with SSA in God. 

So many people I know are coming out of these lifestyles, overcoming this and many other compulsive behaviors.  I have heard testimonies, seen first hand the lives God has transformed.  You are deceived, reading the wrong press.

I am sorry be so insistent, but I am ‘speaking’ pleading with you with tears in my eyes. 

WHY don’t you really believe in the *Almighty* God you declare you believe in each Sunday when you say the Nicene Creed?

Why don’t you believe in the power of the Cross?  In Jesus Christ who is able to save all to the uttermost when Scripture teaches this? 

Four times in the Gospels, it is written that with God, NOTHING is impossible!

I grieve for you and for those dear human beings you and TEC and others have labeled and sealed away from God’s healing power. 

How I hope and pray you will become really alive in the power of the Holy Spirit.

[114] Posted by Theodora on 08-13-2006 at 05:45 PM • top

Anyone out there who has escaped the TEC’s seminaries poison.  ALP gives us a good example of the state of theological training in ECUSA, but I have read some testimonies from some of you inside as to what was and was not taught.  I am very familiar with the teaching of orthodox seminaries in our land and only know of the effects of revisionism/deconstructionism from those who came out with only those few stones in their hands.

[115] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-13-2006 at 05:49 PM • top

ALP -

“They are not going to repent of who they understand themselves to be.”

Herein lies the lie.  Once again, you try to define persons by their sexuality, rather than their relationship to God.  That is the perfect model, the achievement we should strive for, the perfection of what He created us to be.  We DO disagree that God created people to have homosexual attractions, orientations, etc., and I still cannot fathom why people can contrive this from observing creation.  Frankly, and a bit crudely, the pieces do not fit.

If we are to define ourselves by our sexuality, then it blows the theory out of the water, since the male and female body were made to fit together.  For us to assume God’s intention by what lights a flame in our libido is the height of arrogance.

On the flip side, men and women have deep, spiritual, emotional and fulfilling relationships with persons of the same sex.  We can talk about Ruth and Naomi, David and Jonathan, and other examples of incredible relationships of HUGE proportion and meaning in the lives of humans.  There is no doubt that I share intimately with a “girlfriend” in a much different way than I would with a husband.  The similarities in the WAY we think is satisfying on a different level.  HOWEVER, (you knew that was coming) I would not think of going to bed with her.  The taking of the relationship to a physical level is the lie and perversion that has come to the world with the fall.  It is NOT natural (I know that sounds simplistic), nor is it the way God planned it.

[116] Posted by GillianC on 08-13-2006 at 06:12 PM • top

And let me see if I get this, ALP. We are supposed to feel guilt because LBGT folk are “HURT” because we can’t in good conscience declare what we believe to be sin to be okey-dokey, in fact blessed? They are “HURT” because we can’t set aside our understanding of scripture and risk our own souls to salve their feelings? I think you are asking an awful lot. You are asking me to risk God’s wrath in order to keep from “hurting” some feelings? You are asking me to lie about my faith to salve some “feelings”? Sorry that’s just a little bit too touchy-feely aka New Age for me.

I’ve been “listening” since 1993 when +Long Island sent his pink-ribboned troops (literally) into the parishes to teach us how to avoid text-proofing and all the other stuff they dread, and learn to embrace the homosexual lifestyle. We even got lectures that explained “fisting”, an anal thing that is best left unexplained. (Sorry if any elves are insulted but this WAS the Episcopal church in that Diocese in those days.)

Our parish passed on their agenda, and became a pariah to the Diocese. It was just a few months later that Penthouse exposed the boy-prostitute ring of LI priests that were importing the “Boys from Brazil”. And that the chief importer was allowed to study Portugese on the Bishop’s tab. An audit discovered the Bishop had charged over $100,000 in personal expenses to his Diocesan Amex card without reimbursment. It is a tribute to the influence of ECUSA that he was sent off to alcohol camp, and everything was smoothed over with the IRS, and we continued to pay for a driver for his car since the Standing Committee didn’t want the risk of him doing a DUI with big liability.

Although I was in an orthodox parish with a wonderful Rector, when the chance came to flee to an orthodox bishop, I dusted off my feet and moved South. Now I wait to see how this orthodox bishop will help us move on. He is burdened with a lot of pansexual clergy, so it may be painful.

My next measure of faith will be whether my Bishop shows up in Texas.

[117] Posted by Gulfstream on 08-13-2006 at 06:33 PM • top

“in Jesus time it was believed to be a sin to drag a chair across a dirt floor on Saturday (Jewish Sabbath)—because that was considered to be plowing.  Please understand I’m using this as but one example of the laws that Jews in Jesus time were supposed to observe. “

This example is utterly irrelevant to the comments I made.  Jesus, a revisionist?  I’d rather say, He brought the law to full and perfect completion.  The canon of the New Testament is an expression of that completion.  Sarah has it right when she said to you earlier:

“Instead I believe that His word written is our primary authority in life and in the church and is the lens through which we view and judge culture, rather than vice versa.  I believe that God communicated His truth—all that we need to know about Him—in that word written.”

That clearly is not good enough for you and the volumes you have written in this thread and the extensive and civil responses are clearly ones you need to digiest or more probably simply don’t like.

I wish you God’s blessing and will pray that you find healing and the peace which only His Grace and Touch can bring you as you bring your sins to the foot of His cross.  Your name so clearly suggests that this is what you need/are looking for.

[118] Posted by Bill C on 08-13-2006 at 06:46 PM • top

ALP, You are welcome to the conversation.  Stand Firm welcomes all.  I apologize if you feel you have been the victim of name calling.  I don’t think that is anyones intent here.  We tend to be plain spoken people here who are firmly convicted that the authority of Scripture is at stake.  While I haven’t had the opportunity to meet every regular commenter personally, I can say that I believe they would offer succor to any in need. 

I did not think your list was exhaustive and neither was mine.  My comments were directed at your listed foundational truths and to make a point that I believed your analysis was short sighted and additionally failed because you did not take into account original sin nor did it consider God’s design for mankind. We are seriously flawed and selfish creatures and the only way to overcome those flaws is with the blood of the cross.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart is also one I hold dear.  As a matter of fact there are two pieces of Scripture that are in a tie for first place with me.  Deut 6:4-9 and Ecc 12:13.  One is Truth expressed as poetry and the other is just simple truth.

As to your statements about Abraham - I find them puzzling.  He lived with his father until his 70’s.  Sounds like a faithful son to me.  And when God called, he immediately responded.  Truly sounds like a faithful son to me.  Outcast? Only by those who would not know God. 

Your description of years and dates leads me to believe that you hold Scripture in pretty much the same view - humanly edited information without a lot of secular proof.  If I am wrong, please accept my apology in advance.  But if this assumption is correct, you and I are far, far apart.  I believe the Bible to contain every word God wanted in it. 

You see, I believed Jesus when He said to strive to enter by the narrow gate as the road is wide which leads to destruction.  I also believed Him when He said, “If you love me you will follow My commandments.” 

I am wondering about your opinion if a married man were sitting on your Vestry who began an adulterous relationship. Let’s say the spouse was okay with this arrangement.  This individual stated that repentence was an insult as this was the way God made him.  Furthermore, he felt that all people should seek their inner caveman and go out and find at least one additional bedmate to fully embrace their God given sexuality. When questioned he was fully prepared to show how the Church (large C) had mistakenly interpreted Scripture for all these many years and he stated that he was only acting as the Holy Spirit had told him to do.  Communion problem here?  Place of authority problem here?  If you are not okay with this, where is your authority?

[119] Posted by JackieB on 08-13-2006 at 06:59 PM • top

Again, I much prefer the dialogue with ALP than with an ALL IS WELL moderate (with a nod to Windsor) Bishop or Priest that calls himself part of the “broad middle”. The latter constitute a much greater threat to those in the pews because they often hold (undeserved) credibility among parishioners, lead larger flocks, and are unwilling to admit what is at issue.  Be cordial to ALP.

[120] Posted by Going Home on 08-13-2006 at 07:04 PM • top

Re: “I see homosexuality as part of the good creation that has fallen.  You see it as part of the evidence of corruption of an originally heterosexual population.  We disagree.”

Indeed—as I said when you first arrived.  ; > )

Re: “Dumb OX—in Jesus time it was believed to be a sin to drag a chair across a dirt floor on Saturday (Jewish Sabbath)—because that was considered to be plowing.”

But what does this have to do with what scripture taught—even the OT?  Scholars recognize that Jewish leadership had added heavily to the law of the OT by the time of Jesus.  Jesus spoke of those accretions repeatedly.

Re: “Eventually the Christian Community led by the Holy Spirit said that Saturday or Sunday dragging wasn’t sin—it was just rearranging the furniture.  Many in the Jewish community at the time righteously disagreed.  To them Jesus was a revisionist, He changed the rules that were generally accepted in their community.”

Oh dear.  So wrong.  The Christians accepted that Jesus had paid the penalty of the law through His death on the cross.  He did not take away the actual law at all [as compared to the accretion, which is a whole nother issue]. 

That is what Christians base their hope on—the penalty of the OT law does not apply to us, because of Jesus’s atoning work on the cross [remember that was a part of the bedrock beliefs of traditional Christians that you asked for].  ; > )

The NT then goes on to ask what the Gentiles should follow, and it beautifully answers that at the first council in Jerusalem.  The 39 articles quite clearly sums up their decision in this way:
“Although the law given by God through Moses is not binding on Christians as far as its forms of worship and ritual are concerned and the civil regulations are not binding on any nation state, nevertheless no Christian is free to disobey those commandments which may be classified as moral.”

Re: “Anytime He is able to get our attention to see that we HUMAN AUTHORS have written a “bad rule,” He will lead us to change the rule—no doubt—whether it is written in Scripture or not.”

Yet another demonstration of the utterly opposing gospels that are within the Episcopal church. . . . Two groups of people hold contradicting fundamental beliefs.  It’s fine for you to believe this, of course, but it is neither Christian belief or Anglican belief in any shape or form.

Re: “There is no such thing as the faith once handed down to the saints.”

Again—you merely continue to provide evidence of the two different gospels that reside within the Episcopal church.  That’s fine—but I suspect that even you realize in your heart that there will be no lasting communion between those who hold your belief—“no such thing as the faith once handed down to the saints”—and those who hold to traditional Christianity.

Re: “It will one day be agreed that while homosexual people face some unique challenges in their lives—are subject to the same temptations that heterosexuals are—homosexuality itself is just one more way that people are created.”

One day, a few small sects, long ago divided, will believe that.  But the vast majority of Christendom will be as united then as now on the teachings of scripture regarding same-sex activity.  However, it doesn’t really trouble me if you believe otherwise.

Re: “So far in my brief foray on Stand Firm I have been accused of being a dolt, of being insincere, or being addicted to porn, of having communist tendencies, of being soft on sin, of being unregenerate—if you have followed the posts, you know I’m not making this up—and I’ve only been posting here since Friday (I think).”

Only thing is . . . you are making it up.  You weren’t accused of being addicted to porn, nor were you told that you had communist tendencies, nor were you told that you were unregenerate, and the insincerity was with regard to your questions, not your identity.  Question is . . . *why do you wish to advertise yourself as a victim* when you have not been victimized at all on this blog? 

Re: “I’m simply, boringly, persistently, repetiously, inviting you to think—and doing this by challenging some things that you seem to take for granted.”

Oh dear . . . as we all said earlier—reasserters and reappraisers differ on foundational truths.  And you’ve said essentially the same old tired foundational truths of reappraisers that we’ve all waded through now for three years.  Nothing new or original.  And all meticulously and grindingly answered repeatedly.

Again, if you came here to demonstrate the two opposing gospels and the competing foundational truths, that’s fine.  But . . . does either side actually need to have that revealed any further?

It’s sad and troubling that those competing worldviews exist within the same denomination.  But I’m sure we’ll all continue on, slowly working out the resolution of this interesting time in Anglican church history.

[121] Posted by Sarah on 08-13-2006 at 07:33 PM • top

I agree with you Timothy.

Give me a good honest, clear reappraiser along these lines and not a person who claims to be a “moderate” but then says essentially the same things as ALP.

It’s why I like Brian and Merseymike so much over on Titusonenine—they both acknowledge the reality of our situation within Anglicanism . . .

[PS to ALP: the one thing I adore in what you have said is your moniker.]  ; > )

God’s peace to you this beautiful night.

[122] Posted by Sarah on 08-13-2006 at 07:38 PM • top

Sarah, I agree with everything you are saying except when you talk about two “opposing gospels’.  There is only one gospel—the good news of repentence and salvation.

[123] Posted by hanks on 08-13-2006 at 08:25 PM • top

Hanks,no offense,but Sarah seems to be referring to a re-occurance of Galatians 1:6-9 where some believers capitulated to non-believers masquerading as brothers,those same non-believers being guilty of disrupting the fellowship and wanting to ‘distort the gospel of Christ’.In this case,the Gay and Lesbian apologists and revisionist clergy.

[124] Posted by paddy on 08-13-2006 at 08:45 PM • top

That’s just my point—the “other gospel” is not good news, but a distortion.  It’s sad to see our revisionist friends trying so hard to avoid becoming slaves to righteousness and finding the only real freedom that exists.

[125] Posted by hanks on 08-13-2006 at 08:56 PM • top

ALP - I missed whatever offense I might have taken, so no forgiveness necessary.

I think you are a well-intentioned Christian-valued humanist doing your best, as far as you know how, to imitate Jesus’ treatment of outcasts.  That is commendable.

I have a similar bent in that I have always sought out the outcast (particularly the stranger in our land and children orphaned in their own homes by parents who do not love them) and told them of God’s great affection for them in Christ, a kerygma that is not impotent, but rather one that has the power to transform through the Spirit.

You and I do not disagree about the inclusive nature of God’s invitation to all people to put their trust, hope, and faith in Christ.  You and I do not disagree about Jesus’ acceptance of any and all who truly come to him.  What we disagree about is the content and impact of biblically faithful kerygma.

Coming to Jesus requires a willingness for the identity WE think we have to be CRUCIFIED with Christ.  Yes, crucifixion causes pain and anguish, which gives us all pause, and there are many who will not go through with it… but it is the ONLY gateway to being resurrected with Christ.

You seem to think that Jesus accepts people as they are and then leaves them that way.  That is not the transforming love of God in Christ that is revealed in the Scriptures, in the resurrected lives of the saints and matyrs, or in the faith which they have delivered to us; nor is it my own experience of the deliverance from the power of sin and death, from my own delusional self-focus.  This is what Jesus meant when he said that those who would try to find their lives would lose it, and those who lose their lives for his sake, will find it.

Our “identity” pre-Christ does not deserve to be blessed or consecrated.  It deserves to die.  This is what the Scriptures declare univocally and unequivocally.  The glorious truth of the Gospel, about the one name given among men by which we can be saved, is that if we allow ourselves to be crucified with Christ, we may then be raised to new life in Him; the grave clothes of our pre-Christ identity are unwrapped, and the animating power of the Spirit reveals a life and an identity in Christ that will endure for eternity.

Your brand of love avoids the truth to make people feel better about themselves.  Your brand of love leaves people victims of their own confusion and neuroses, wallowing in sin and doubt and despair.

I will stick to what I know, (in the Biblical sense of knowing), that the Lord Jesus Christ has delivered me from death, and it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.  The waters of Christ-less social gospel are bittersweet; they do not compare to the matchless grace that can be experienced when we taste the freedom from the bond of sin and death which Christ won for us in his amazing oblation at Calvary.

M. Craig Barnes, former pastor of the National Presbyterian Church wrote in his book, “When God Interrupts: Finding New Life Through Unwanted Change,” that “Christianity is fundamentally losing the life of our dreams to receive the life that Jesus died to give us.”  I quite agree.

My prayer for you is that you would receive that life, and exchange the inert ministry of a temporal hug for a potent ministry of offering words of life that echo through eternity, as opposed to filling out your remaining years only being able to offer impotent words that echo in the hollow soul of finite humanity.

My sincere apologies for the name-calling you have experienced at this site.  It does not represent me or the ethos of my operating style, and it is not consistent with Jesus’ love.  If ever I have made you feel less than the beloved of God, I am sorry.

[126] Posted by Christoferos on 08-13-2006 at 11:01 PM • top

Dear Christoferos and ALP,
Why is it that there is always somebody who can express what I think and believe much better and with profound words. Thank you C.for your reply to ALP..this is what I found in ‘74 when I was Baptised in the Spirit. The Word of God exploded with power and converting grace, and that after being a priest for 12 years and 4 years in Theological college, six years missionary work, that I came to know Jesus…what a difference that made to my ministry and how effective it became.
Brian

[127] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-13-2006 at 11:37 PM • top

ALP, I have been reading the debate thus far and I would make an additional point to what Christeros says so well.

In Jeremiah 18 we are taught that God is the potter and we are the clay. Romans 8:28-29 tells us what God as a potter is doing for the believer in Christ. He is conforming our likeness to like Christ himself.

So, the goal of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit is to be transformed into the likeness of a holy, just, fair, and loving Jesus Christ.

Unless a revision that you argue for has the complete image of Christ in it, it is simply unacceptable.

To do less than what Christ would do for the homosexual whether one is a reappraiser or a reasserter is wrong no matter what.

It is not true love, which is Christ like, to stop the stoning of a homosexual by asking who of us is without sin without commanding the homosexual to go and sin no more.

[128] Posted by Brooks Kelley on 08-14-2006 at 07:52 AM • top

I guess ALP was not really interested in discussing the issue on a theological basis.  That is a shame.  It is rare that a worthy opponent is willing to even engage at that level.  If you are reading, ALP, we enjoyed your foray into Stand Firm and welcome you back at any time.  Our prayers for you and yours.

[129] Posted by JackieB on 08-14-2006 at 05:54 PM • top

To All—Sorry not to have been more present yesterday and today—I do get up a little after 0400 on weekdays and Sundays for work.

I have found the discussion challenging, fun, frustrating, stimulating, and exhausting.  I really think I tried to do too much writing/thinking/praying Friday/Saturday/Sunday.  I am really enjoying the interaction and appreciate the welcome as an honest reappraiser.

Since my congregation has a right to expect me to be semi-coherent on Sunday morning, I also work hard on sermon preparation.  More thinking and writing and rehearsing and praying and researching—the normal stuff.

I see that many of you have written very thoughtful and thought provoking responses.  Rather than attempt to respond today (today was tough at work—near constant busyness for some 10 hours)—I’m still tired.  I plan to take tonight off and hopefully resume dialogue tomorrow after work.

Please know that I deeply appreciate your prayers and your intellectual/spiritual engagement.

May the Lord Bless you all.

I’d really appreciate anyone telling me how to access the “printer friendly” version of our posts.  I had it once, but have no idea how I got to the place that let me choose “printer friendly” version.

I think part of what stresses me in this is not listening well—putting words in your mouths that you didn’t say (apparently I’ve done that some because I didn’t read carefully enough and thus misrepresented what was said or intended)—and it really stresses me that I may fail to respond to someone who has taken the trouble to join in.  The “printer friendly” version would help me deal with those stressors.

[130] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-14-2006 at 07:04 PM • top

Right under the lead article and before the comments there is the choice of “printer friendly} and “with comments.”  Just click it and print.

[131] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-14-2006 at 09:08 PM • top

A thousand thanks, Prophet Micaiah.  Very, very helpful.

[132] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-14-2006 at 09:27 PM • top

ALP to Prophet Miciah:

Your undocumented remarks are not helpful, neither is your condescension.
Helping me find the “printer friendly” commands, was most helpful.  I’m sure you have more to contribute.  Please…

ALP to GillianC:

Evidence please – many statements of belief but no evidence for these beliefs except for a reference that I won’t touch about “body parts.”

The evidence that I would cite is in the people themselves.  How do I know – how does your doctor, your priest, your friend know that you are heterosexual?  You behave like one and you say you are one.  You further add that your sexuality is a gift from God (a teaching from Genesis).  You can’t prove you are heterosexual by finding a “heterosexual” gene.  You prove your natural sexual orientation by your behavior and your words.

So it is with homosexuals.  They also claim that their sexuality is a “gift” from a loving God.  You can cite all the Scripture you want which only proves that you know how to read and repeat Scripture.  It does not prove anything about homosexuals.

ALP to Floridian:

I am not one to give “how one should feel” instructions.  My own lack of a truly pastoral heart is one of the things that caused me to leave full time parish ministry.  I felt a great sense of relief at not being spiritually responsible for my people all the time.  I wasn’t taking very good care of myself, let alone them.  I enjoy the remark, “I love humanity, it’s people I can’t stand.”  I’m wired more to ideas but with an inconvenient “heart” for underdogs and outcasts.  The point I’m rambling about is that I would never tell you how to “feel.”

I can tell you that “reasserters” hurt GLBT people – as a generalization.

I have noticed a tendency of reasserters to rationalize their capacity to inflict pain.  It’s OK to hurt GLBT people because that’s part of your belief system!  This particular line of argument if carried to its natural conclusion ends with people who blow themselves up hoping to take out literally hundreds of enemies because they’re being true to their belief system.

True ISLAM does not believe in hurting people but helping people.  Same with true Christianity – people come before belief systems – “Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath.”  We live lives of service not lives of domination.

Your salvation is not at stake if you accept GLBT people as they are – just your tightly, rigidly constructed belief system.  God will still love you, Jesus will still have died for you.  The Holy Spirit will guide you.  Your salvation depends on the grace of God not on your saying the correct religious formulas or in performing the correct rituals.

I hope your bishop goes to Texas, he’s likely to meet mine.  I believe, whatever else, they may do, they need to support one another.

ALP to Dumb Ox:

To the community he lived in Jesus was a revisionist and worse – they did not crucify him for cheating at marbles – he was a threat to the established power structures – both Jewish and Roman.  He was fond of breaking their man made rules.  He said on more than one occasion, “your have heart it said … but I say unto you …”  To the power structure with their carefully crafted “belief systems,” he wanted to change what had always been believed and taught by Moses.

You miss my point entirely if you refuse to see Jesus through those Jewish/Roman eyes – and only see him through the lens of 2000 years later.

What is your evidence that Scripture is to be humanity’s “primary” lens?  Seems to me that’s a pretty divisive idea.  That’s a “my scriptures are better than yours” kind of argument that leads to violence and division – just read human history – we fight a lot about religion.  We just don’t get it.

A religion with a dying savior is about sacrificing for the good of the whole.  A religion that is willing to die and to trust the results to God is one worth being a part of – Jesus understood that.  Most of us don’t.  We want victory – power – Christians win.  And Jesus continues to shudder.  He told Peter, “get behind me Satan.”  And Peter continued to misunderstand.  Do we?

[133] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-15-2006 at 08:46 PM • top

ALP to Jackie:

RE:  Abraham – “those who would not know God” were probably quite a crowd – probably the majority of the community if then is like now.  He was an outsider to many.

As stated previously there is ample EVIDENCE of human authorship, human editing, human bias, human culture – in Holy Writ.  God acted then as he acts now – through sinful human beings.  Have you ever know humans to get anything exactly right?

Strangely enough, I’m a “narrow gate” preacher – not at all sexually permissive, drug tolerant, just lets be lovie dovie.  That’s an Orthodox straw man.  No doubt you can find some examples of revisionists who are that way – I could probably find examples of sinful behavior among the reasserters.  People are people and sin is sin.  Core value.

Jackie, the closest I ever came to “excommunicating” anyone was a case much like you described.  It was a man still married who showed up with his girlfriend and wanted to know if that was okee dokee.  Like WC Fields, I went looking for a loophole … so I asked if they planned to be married or if he planned to divorce his wife.  He said no.  I told him that I thought it would be best for him, girlfriend, and wife—- to be clear about his intentions vis a vis his relationships before he came back to the Lord’s table.  I didn’t outright forbid him or refuse him but that was my pastoral counsel.  I did advise my bishop.  The fellow and his girlfriend were not seen again at our church.

On the other hand I once had a parishioner tell me that I should tell so and so he could not allow himself to be nominated for the Vestry because he was gay.  I told this parishioner that he’d have to tell him himself because I saw no problem with so and so being gay.  To the best of my knowledge, the parishioner never spoke directly to so and so who was elected and whose wisdom contributed greatly to the well being of that parish.

ALP to Timothy:

Thanks for “be cordial to ALP.”  Do my best to return the treatment.  I posted briefly on Jake that the people with whom we disagree are our brothers and sisters in Christ – not the enemy – and are to be treated with dignity and respect at all times – in word and in attitude.  Of course that same view extends to all humanity – respect the dignity of every human being.

To Sarah Hey:

Jesus spoke not only to “accretions” but to the “Law” itself – “eye for an eye” but I say unto you … my example was to simply demonstrate that Jesus changed things.

Do you know anywhere where “core values” are spelled out – hopefully briefly and succinctly?  As a starting point I don’t care whose version it would be.

Seems to me such list would be helpful.  We so called reappraisers could go with what the BCP says (the way it says it).  Seems like your reasserters are really the reappraisers when it comes to core values as stated in BCP.

Thanks for your moniker, adoration. 

ALP to Hanks:

We agree – one Gospel but sad to say, two opposing interpretations or versions. And to Sarah’s comment – one is a distortion – what we’re discussing is “which one.”

[134] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-15-2006 at 08:47 PM • top

ALP to Christoferos:

Appreciate your trying to id common ground.  I believe there’s lots of common ground.

I don’t believe God calls people and leaves them alone – straw man – not me.

I do believe taking up one’s cross is much more than personal change – personal change is really pretty safe.  Jesus took on societal power structures both Roman and Jewish – he stood up for all of us and was crucified for his trouble.  We’ve theologized that fact to the point where he almost wouldn’t recognize it.  He died as a common criminal as a warning to all passersby, “DON”T MESS WITH ROME – OR THIS WILL HAPPEN TO YOU.”  The kingdom he proclaimed and taught was a clear threat to Rome.

Take up your cross and follow me is an invitation to take on the powers that be on behalf of the human family.  To make it into an issue of human sexuality trivializes the cross.  We find our lives in standing up for everyone against anyone who would oppress them – dangerous, cross carrying work.

The Gospel as I understand it is social but it is hardly Christless – another straw man.  By his grace we are able to live in the Heavenly Kingdom while building it here on Earth.  He does indeed dwell in us and we in him.  He provides the model, the power, the mercy, and the grace for us to build this beloved community “on Earth as it is in Heaven.”  If we take care of his business here on Earth, He will do his part vis a vis our ticket to Heaven.

I’d have to agree with you and M Craig Barnes – I remember in my younger days, I wanted wealth and power and blondes.  In my early days as a Priest I wanted a “successful” church.  I have been led (I trust) to now want to be part of the Kingdom Construction Company – a church that is willing to die in service to the whole human family as we learn to practice the great commandment of love.  When that happens, Christians, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics – God so loved the world – we all win.  I find this challenge infinitely more uplifting than any Gospel of personal holiness.  I believe that our gifts are given by God for the service of the human family.

ALP to Brian:

We have had similar experiences – we evaluate them differently.

ALP to Brooks Kelley:

The difference is that adultery is a sin while homosexuality is not.  Go and sin no more is an appropriate thing to say to an adulteress.  It is a presumptuous thing to say to a homosexual.

I know we disagree about this but that’s my point of view.

ALP to Jackie:

Doing my best to provide a down to earth theology, EVIDENCE based, people over religious belief system biased.  Sorry I wore out the other day and was unable to engage.

ALP to all:

Just a final brief word about homophobia.  You notice that I have not used that term up until mentioning it just now.  I don’t like the term because it implies fear – to which Bubba says, “I ain’t afraid of them queers, I just don’t like them.  Yuk.”

I prefer the term “sexual prejudice.”  I find it in myself – what our GLBT brothers and sisters in Christ refer to as the “yuk” factor.  We’ve seen it in references to body parts, fists – and who knows what we’ve all been thinking.  Same sex is not our cup of tea.  It’s different.  I have a natural discomfort just thinking about same sex intimacy that no matter how liberated or free thinking, loving, accepting I wish to be, my humanity just isn’t wired that way.

I have mentioned by title many things that have befallen people whose only “sin” was to be differently wired from the rest of us.  Sexual prejudice, like all prejudice, likes to hide and disguise itself as something respectable.

What I am NOT SAYING is that you who believe homosexuality is a sin are sexually prejudiced.  I know that I am – but I believe that tendency in me is under control – I truly have no desire to harm anyone.

I am saying that if you look in the mirror as I have, you may also find some “sexual prejudice” – some “yuk” factor.  Having seen it you need to decide if it is in any way driving your belief system.  Is it helping you select “favorite scriptures?”  Is it driving your interpretation of phrases like “male and female?”  etc. 

Prejudice comes from pre judge.  Are you judging all people based on the content of their character or are you pre judging a group because of their sexual orientation? 

Please know I have faced these questions many times as I’m sure many of you have.  Please take no offense.  Sexual prejudice is a part of humans being sinful and fallen, I believe.  Just as is racial, religious, gender, age, ethnic, and cultural prejudice – to pre judge people is sinful.  It is especially SINFUL to pre judge ORTHODOX REASSERTERS.

So long for now, I’ve wore out again.

[135] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-15-2006 at 08:48 PM • top

ALP response to:Posted by Timothy on 08-13-2006 at 03:53 PM

First of all, thanks for the positive tone of your reply. 

In my studies, the EVIDENCE for the view that there is a “deposit of faith” – a faith once delivered to the saints – the EVIDENCE is scant.

The EVIDENCE for a revelation that continues, for texts that have changed with editing and translation from what they were originally – there is a LARGE BODY OF EVIDENCE from multiple sources that support this view.

I don’t say this in order to undermine the authority of Scripture, I say this because it appears to me to be true – true based on the EVIDENCE available to me to reach an informed conclusion.

There is also peace and security discovering truth and in speaking it.  Defending a particular belief system is the work of apologetics.  Discovering truth wherever it is – that’s scholarship.

It is clear to me that some the people here have (perhaps unknowingly) elevated apologists to the level of scholars. 

ALP response to:Posted by Floridian on 08-13-2006 at 04:45 PM

Apologies for having misrepresented your intent.

I have lived with and explored “converted” “regenerate” “born-again” people and the experiences which they make so much of.  Although I have been privileged to have had several “conversion” experiences – I have received the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” of the Charismatic Movement (complete with tongues) – I’d have to line up with St. Paul’s I Cor. 13.  Without love – loving acts towards our fellow travelers on this Earth – all the talk is just that – noise.

I do not know you so I’m not speaking personally but running the risk of generalizing.  When I was among Charismatics and Evangelicals I often discerned a great deal of immaturity, showing off, ego driven displays – I further frequently discerned a smug sense of spiritual superiority – spiritual arrogance, thinly (and not so thinly) veiled spiritual boasting (I had one priest who was new to “the baptism” tell me that he could “empty out the psychiatric wards” (he would simply go in and heal these poor people).

When it comes to deciding who’s got the “good stuff,” I look for fruits not gifts.

You say, “God only created man and woman, male and female.”  Quoting Genesis only proves that you can read – nothing more.  While I believe God created male and female, it is clear from looking at his creation that He created so much more.

Run through Genesis and see the list of things created – does this mean that God did not create atoms – they are not mentioned specifically but … we believe in atoms for just one example that could be exhaustingly expanded.  The point of the author of Genesis is that what you see, God created.  It was not meant to be a complete list and it was not meant to exclude things not specifically listed.  Genesis does not mention race but people are born with race – some strong in their race and some mixed.  People are born with a sexual identity – male or female or mixed.  People are born with sexual orientation or attraction – hetero, homo, or mixed – as I said it is just how folks are.

Since I observe a spectrum of sexual orientations in humans, I believe that there are indeed some “GLBT” people who have chosen to resist their (weak) homosexual attraction and lead good lives as “weak” heterosexual people.  I do not deny that there are such cases. 

The literature however, tells us that there are people who are strongly “same sex attracted” and for them to try to be otherwise, simply goes against their nature and leads to more pain and suffering.  I believe this is why homosexuality is no longer on the official “disorder” list.

The fact that you and I disagree on some basics does not mean that either of us disbelieves God or his power to change lives.  I do believe in the power of the cross.  Please stop suggesting otherwise. 

We should continue to pray for God’s best for each of us.

[136] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-15-2006 at 08:51 PM • top

ALP, I admit that I am not well educated or in the system, so the fact that all the above just goes over my head would be expected.  I really don’t recall the thread saying all the things you seem to grasp from the entries.  It is all so——“foggy” but again I may just not be astute enough to grasp these erudite thoughts.  Or then again, maybe this just shows the wide gulf between the orthodox and the revisionist.  We are on differnt frequencies, different values, different way of thinking, different religions.  Any way I am glad you check in on SFIF and try to interact with all us knuckle draggers.  May the Lord bless you and yours.  He is able….

[137] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-15-2006 at 09:02 PM • top

Dear ALP,
Thank you for the judgement we evaluate things differently..If I choose to reject the plain injunctions of scripture on HLSDTG whatever as being contrary to the Will of God and SIN, and replace it with ‘another’ view because I think so. what a mess, everybody having their own opinion without any certainty underlying those opinions except ‘my opinion’ I think the Holy Spirit has taught me to trust Him and His leading through the Scriuptures and this is what my experience has taught me…it seems He has taught you something else by what you say…this makes for confusion. I think I will stick to the Word of God.
Brian

[138] Posted by Brian (Aussie) on 08-15-2006 at 09:47 PM • top

Well ALP, color me flabberghasted!  You have very succinctly stated why we are already two different churches. 

You routinely dismiss Biblical references because you believe they are just the product of imperfect man.  You accept secular writings as proof and dismiss God’s Word without regard to its divine inspiration.  One must assume you dismiss the texts that have been discovered that only serve to confirm our Biblical text.  And I am not even sure how to respond to your wife/girlfriend scenario without stepping over the line with you. I guess I imagined somewhere there would have been a pastoral response of marriage counseling and a reminder of vows given before God and each other.  I guess I was confused because I thought the first reason to say anything at all would be to bring about a change in the lives of those who are obviously straying from their marriage vows, a reminder to them that their actions are working to separate them from God.  Divorce and remarriage weren’t my first thoughts.  But then, that’s just me and I don’t have all those years of seminary training.

And I am so weary of hearing how reappraisers think speaking God’sWords is hurtful.  It may be unworldly but it cannot be unloving.  And why do you insist on excluding so many from your inclusiveness?  From the wife/girlfriend issue we discussed it appears you have a problem with trios.  I mean what if Patricia Ireland who has a husband and a wife wanted to run for Vestry – would you be mean and tell her no?  And you think drug use is wrong – why I know lots of modern day coke heads who are holding down high paying jobs contributing monthly to the tax base.  Let’s not leave out all the co-habitating couples who think marriage is passe’ or those that have signed on to the marriage vows just to break them on a regular basis.  Are they in or out?  Is there some secular guideline you will use for your morale compass?

ALP, I just have to tell you that we are polar opposites.  I wish you well in your life.  I see no way we can continue to practice our faiths in the same church.  They are too different.

[139] Posted by JackieB on 08-15-2006 at 11:02 PM • top

To All

I have been reading this thread and I must congratulate ALP on succeeding in his personal mission.  He has worn out at least 4 good keyboards, taken up unworldly amounts of bandwidth and sapped energy from far too many faithful Christians.

That is the mode of operation for TEC revsionists.  Twist, doublespeak, manipulate and fabricate all in the name of love and truth.  It the type of cunning that Eve encountered in the Garden (If one should believe such folly). 

The condescencion which is apparent in ALP’s first post reaches a crescendo when speaking about early rising to take care of the parish.

ALP is bruising your heels and you are too nice to crush his head. 

Sin is sin and evil is evil.  The orthodox in our church understand the first, but are too ofter reluctant to admit the second.  That is why we are at this point in the life of TEC.  More often than not being wrong simply sinful, but when malice and agenda drive the wrong it is evil and must be dealt with as such.

[140] Posted by Chaps on 08-16-2006 at 03:49 AM • top

Chaps, you have said it so well.  ALP has been jerking us all around for what seems like weeks.  Time to pull the plug.

ALP there is only one gospel and it’s not the one you and TEC are trying to create and rewrite.

[141] Posted by hanks on 08-16-2006 at 04:45 AM • top

Chaps, I rise in defense of ALP.  If he is indeed new to blogging, then he really hasn’t been through the past three years of blogging in which we’ve all endlessly gone over these exact discussions on numerous blogs.

The end result is the exact one that we’ve experienced: two worldviews [modified the word “gospels” in order to fit Hanks sensibilities] that are utterly opposed to one another, both purporting to be the gospel of Jesus Christ, residing in one organization.  I frankly have no desire to try to convince those that hold such a worldview to see things my way—only God can do that—so I limit my blog comments on these matters to simple statements of my beliefs.

The simple fact of the stark and plain opposition of those two worldviews pretty much makes the coming months very very intriguing.  I am observing with great interest . . .

At least we live in interesting times.  ; > )

[142] Posted by Sarah on 08-16-2006 at 07:34 AM • top

ALP, I do not presume to tell God what is and is not a sin in His eyes. His word tells me what is a sin and you disagree with that.

Moreover, as a priest, you should know that Hell is a real place and the consequence for a lost GLBT of not being told in love to repent of their sinful behavior or face an eternity in an everlasting fire is something I would not want to have to explain as a priest to an Almighty, Holy, Loving, and Just God on judgement day.

Now that would be truly presumptious!

[143] Posted by Brooks Kelley on 08-16-2006 at 07:51 AM • top

Foks, I have to agree with Sarah.  We welcome all civil commenters at Stand Firm and we all must admit ALP has been very civil. 

We need to express our views (or not) and remember to do so civilly.  Who knows but words someone here writes will be the deciding factor in someone stepping into or out of the light of truth?

[144] Posted by JackieB on 08-16-2006 at 08:14 AM • top

Uh that would be FoLks!
Greg! We need spellcheck!

[145] Posted by JackieB on 08-16-2006 at 09:29 AM • top

“twist, doublespeak, manipulate and fabricate all in the name of love and truth.  It the type of cunning that Eve encountered in the Garden (If one should believe such folly).”

“ALP has been jerking us all around for what seems like weeks.  Time to pull the plug.”
I also have been reading but not commenting. I think that ALP (and the vast majority of progressives) truely believe what they say. They believe with conviction, just as we do. The above comments implies that ALP has been lying, and been purposefully deceitful in some way. This is slander against someone who, in good faith is sharing his views with us. I think he is wrong in his belief but I don’t find his comments deceitful or manipulative. No wonder many perceive conservatives as harsh, judgemental, close-minded, and mean- because many are. This is no way to show God’s love.

[146] Posted by Pam C. on 08-16-2006 at 09:35 AM • top

As the guy who said: “time to pull the plug” I was not suggesting lying or deceit.  Just that we’ve all said it, and said it, and said it—and ALP has been a master at that.  Unless there’s something new, time to move on.

[147] Posted by hanks on 08-16-2006 at 10:13 AM • top

I’m sorry to continue this, but who has been harsh, judgemental, close-minded and mean?  Go back and read ALPs comments.

I do not believe that he is a newbie in the blogosphere.  Remember, he spoke of all the fine people in Fr. Jake’s world?

The gospel he is proclaiming is a lie it is deceiving the vast majority of Episcopalians and it has destroyed our church.  I have not called him names, unlike others on this thread,I have described his behavior. 

As priests, ALP and I have a responsibility to our congregations and to the Church.  He has taken it upon himself to propogate a lie and call it truth.  That is not of God, it is an assault upon Christ’s church and it is evil.

It is my prayer that ALP does come to repentance and back into orthodoxy, but that will not happen through dialogue.  That is the tool of TEC that has perpetuated the agenda and led to our current state.

Finally God’s love does not wink at those who underrmine the ministry of his church.  God’s love is honest enough to bring light into the situation that darkness may flee and the hearts of sinners, including me, will be brought into the likeness of Christ.

[148] Posted by Chaps on 08-16-2006 at 11:15 AM • top

Let me do some undocumented judgmentalism: ISTM that ALP while sincere and misguided may have an internal problem.  Perhapse he has been hurt or maybe have a burden and no one to help him.  If there is harbored sin that will mess up our ability to communicate with the truth of the Bible,also.  “If our gospel be hid….”  Now I wish he had a good, caring orthodox friend that could help him.  I am glad to interchange with him but I feel there is something blocking it and do get a little tired of going over the same old ground.  Truly our difference go way back to our development and will not be solved easily.  IMHO

[149] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-16-2006 at 01:52 PM • top

Sarah, I wish I could have you or Matt and ALP go on Larry King, or even CSPAN.

With an open and honest discussion of the competing viewpoints, I am not worried about the results.  Their is no reason to get upset. As you said, God is in charge; no one of us can cause the first person to come to Christ. 

A far greater danger is posed by those that would deny the very existance of the disagreement, or who are simply lukewarm to it all. 

I, for one, am thankful for Bishop Schori’s election.  Fewer and fewer Priests and Bishops can now deny the great gap between the TEC policy and historic Christianity, rather they are increasingly forced to debate the merits of the opposing viewpoints. Thats a good thing.

[150] Posted by Going Home on 08-16-2006 at 02:31 PM • top

You have all made the difficulty of bringing about reconciliation very clear to me.  I had heard it also said from those on the left but I wanted to see for myself.  As so many of you have stated, the idealogical gulf is wide.

I sincerely thank you for your efforts to engage me and my ideas even though for most of you it was the same old stuff. 

Just for the record I had been reading posts on the site “thinking anglicans” for about a year—never had posted just read occasionally.  In the weeks leading up to this years general convention in Columbus, I found a couple of liberal sites and a couple conservative.  I have only posted on Jake and here—nowhere like the three years of blogging for some of you.

I expect to continue to visit and to continue to comment.

While I believe it would be helpful to clarify our core values or beliefs—distinguish bedrock from “important but secondary” values, we run such a spectrum that total agreement might never come.

For example the idea that “the Bible says it and therefore it’s true” seems to be a core value for some of you—others want to refine that idea to the Bible’s original thoughts and intents are what’s true—others have admitted that passages “seem” to contradict other passages so the contradictions are resolved by (and here I was never sure exactly how these folks resolved these contradictions—some talked about Jesus fulfilling the Law—some made distinctions—some seemed to live with the contradictions secure in the belief that their views with shared by God). 

It seems to me that just as the revisionists are not of one mind, neither are the reasserters—probably a good sign but that fact in itself does keep things “stirred.”

I’m planning to back off this thread.  My prayers are with you.  God will see us safely through.

[151] Posted by Almost Live Priest on 08-16-2006 at 10:07 PM • top

ALP, the orthodox are totally agreed on the core values—-sorry it seems confused to you.  The only disagreement is whether to abandon TEC now or later.

[152] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 08-17-2006 at 11:07 AM • top

It was interesting to see that a priest in the Diocese of NH wasn’t aware of VGR being a homosexual yet it is bandied about by VGR and his supporters that it was well known in NH and all were supportive of him.

[153] Posted by art+ on 07-17-2008 at 07:23 PM • top

Almost Live Priest, God told us to love the sinner, but hate the sin, scripture tells us that homosexuality is a sin, and unnatural. Those who choose not to believe are free to do so, but they do not have the right to demand our faith be changed, or that they can just believe whatever they want, as practicing members of the clergy. They aren’t only lying to themselves, they are lying about our religious beliefs.. it’s also a violation of our rights to religious freedom.

Those who witnessed VGR lying to children, in the guise of a member of the clergy were right to be upset about it. Parents who send their children to a religious school, do so because they want them educated under the values of their religion, not under the values of those who seek to subvert it.

Rights are a two way street, you do not secure your own, by rationalizing that others should be protected, but also have the right to violate others.

[154] Posted by mari on 07-17-2008 at 11:25 PM • top

<blockquote>When it comes to deciding who’s got the “good stuff,” I look for fruits not gifts.<>

Well, I don’t know how much “good stuff” the thief on the cross had, or how much fruit one could see in his life, but I do know that he is sharing paradise with the Lord.


I disagree with so much that you posted ALP, but along with many others here, am glad to see a revisionist who is truly willing to engage.

[155] Posted by heart on 07-18-2008 at 12:48 AM • top

As a parent when David Hicks was at Darlington, I can attest to his wisdom.  The Darlington community is poorer for his absence.  I am pleased to see an audience that appreciates his insight.

[156] Posted by Diane Lewis on 12-15-2008 at 07:54 PM • top

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[157] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 01-09-2009 at 10:30 AM • top

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