Saturday, July 4, 2009
Has the Episcopal Church really been “Falsely Accused”? Part II
Monday, August 28, 2006 • 8:43 am
...the elevation of a divorced man living in a sexual relationship with another man, represented a clear, deliberate, officially sanctioned change in the doctrine of the Episcopal Church. What scripture, tradition, communion, and reason forbid, we chose to bless. And on that day the Episcopal Church stepped outside the limits and boundaries of orthodoxy.

This morning’s article is the second installment in a series of articles responding to Fr. Tom Woodward’s article Falsely Accused.

In the introductory installment I provided a rough summary of Fr. Woodward’s assertion: that the AAC, Network, and Church of Nigeria (why just those three I wonder?) have falsely accused the Episcopal Church of heresy and apostasy by (mis)representing the marginal teachings of marginal teachers, Dr. Marcus Borg and John Spong, as though they were the mainstream teachings of official voices.

Both teachers, as most readers know, deny essential doctrines: the virgin birth, bodily resurrection, and the bodily ascension.

If indeed the Episcopal Church were the healthy, well-balanced, orthodox Church Fr. Woodward claims, you would expect to see widespread opposition to Spong and Dr. Borg originating not just from the traditionalist wing, but from the “diverse center” as well. You would expect Spong to be brought up on presentment charges and men like Borg to be ostracized by the ecclesial leadership.

Instead these men are lauded and celebrated. They are frequently invited to dioceses across the Episcopal Church to lecture, teach, and preach at the invitation and with the blessing of the diocesan bishop.

For example, here’s an article describing Spong's visit to Presiding Bishop-Elect Jefferts-Schori’s Diocese of Nevada where, apparently, he not only spoke to the clergy but was given pulpit access to the flock of at least one parish.

Spong Addresses 2003 Clergy Conference in Nevada

John Shelby Spong will speak at 7 p.m. Wednesday at Christ Church Episcopal, 2000 S. Maryland Parkway. The lecture, which is open to the public, is titled ‘God Beyond Theism.’ Spong also will speak Sept. 6 at Trinity Episcopal Church in Reno. His Reno lecture is titled ‘Jesus Beyond Incarnation.’ Spong also will address the clergy of the Diocese of Nevada at a retreat in Lake Tahoe. ‘Bishop Spong continues to be one of the important voices for an intellectually involved Christian theology,’ said the Right Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori, bishop of the Diocese of Nevada. ‘You may not agree with everything he says, but you will not come away from a meeting with him without having examined what you do believe and why.


Lest you think the reporter somehow misunderstood or misstated the capacity or purpose of Spong’s visit or imagine that perhaps these things took place under +Jefferts-Schori’s radar or without her full knowledge, here’s the blurb from her diocesan newsletter:

TO ALL CLERGY: SAVE THE DATES.
Clergy Conference 2003 will take place September 4 to September 6, 2003 at Almost Home Group Retreats, South Lake Tahoe, CA. Our facilitator is the Rt. Rev. John Shelby Spong, former Episcopal Bishop of Newark, NJ, renowned writer and lecturer. He is one of the leading spokespersons in the world for progressive Christianity. He is author of 15 books including the best-selling Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism. A Profile of a Bishop: John Shelby Spong can be found on www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/profile.html. Coordinators in the North are needed to provide transportation for those arriving at the Reno airport to the center. Volunteers, please call the diocesan office 702-737-9190. A registration form will be in the mail shortly.


So only three years ago this marginal and unrepresentative teacher, this odd-man-out, was leading clergy days in the Presiding bishop-elect’s diocese and lecturing her flock.

And this is no anomaly. Spong and Dr. Borg are frequent welcomed guests in Episcopal diocese across the country.

At the same time, all of this is somewhat beside the point. I could link to diocesan newsletter after diocesan newsletter describing these men and their teachings in glowing terms and, while enlightening, it would do little to further the argument.

The problem, as I realized last night, is that Fr. Woodward and his fellow travelers at Episcopal Majority have a novel and rather odd understanding of what exactly constitutes “orthodoxy”. His claim that TEC currently stands within the tradition depends on a gutted definition of tradition.

Fr. Woodward, for example, apparently does not consider the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection, or the bodily ascension core doctrines. Here's one of his comments in the thread beneath my first installment.

I do not understand your charges or concerns about deconstructing the Creeds or Scriptures. I understand how those on the “orthodox” side are doing both—demanding a litmus test for choosing the correct understandings of “the Virgin Mary,” and theories of the atonement, the Second Coming and the resurrection as well as undercutting what had been a communion-wide consensus on the status of the Purity Code in determining doctrine in TEC.

I also understand the confusion of many people in dealing with religious language, which is often metaphorical rather than propositional. I think of “sitting on the right hand of God,” which refers, I believe, to the core of the doctrine of the Ascension rather than to a physical event (a man disappearing into the clouds may be an enormous “Wow” but does not mean much without the meaning attached. Your citing the question about belief surrounding “The Virgin Mary.” I do not believe it is a matter of core doctrine that Mary was a virgin at the birth of Jesus—that His birth was at the divine initiative is important, but the history of the phrase, coming from a questionable interpretation of Isaiah, particularly its function at the time it was inserted into the creed indicate that it is the divine initiative that is important, not the nuts and bolts of it. We get to differ about the nuts and bolts—unless that is defined for us at General Convention, in a new Book of Common Prayer or in a common agreement in a new (and pretty scary) Anglican Covenant.
Of course, if these articles are not essential or core articles of the Christian faith, then certainly Fr. Tom, Episcopal Majority, and the Jesus Seminar, Spong and Dr. Borg and ultimately anyone else who mouths the Creeds can be considered “orthodox.”


In fact, from Fr. Woodward’s responses it would seem that the criteria for orthodoxy are 1. “possessing” a 79 prayerbook with a catechism, 2. “reciting” the Creeds (without necessarily believing the propositional content of the words), “celebrating” the resurrection (at least as a metaphor) and adhering like a fundamentalist to a literal reading of the Canons of the Episcopal Church.

In which case, it is difficult to see how this conversation can progress.

Here is the definition of Christian orthodoxy within the Anglican Communion to which I and the vast majority of Anglicans everywhere adhere:

Doctrine, teaching and practice consistent with Scripture and traditions of the Church (based on the four Councils of Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus and Chalcedon; the 39 Articles of Religion; the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral; and the 1888 Lambeth Conference).


By this standard the Episcopal Church is clearly a heretical body and we do not need to dig up references to John Shelby Spong or Dr. Borg to prove it. Simply turn to the election, consent, and consecration of V. Gene Robinson to the office of bishop in the diocese of New Hampshire.

His consent represents a blatant rejection of the plain reading of Scripture, 2000 years of Christian tradition, the contemporary teaching of every branch of Christendom (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant…with the exception of the UCC and the Metropolitan Church) the clear teaching of the Anglican Communion as articulated at Lambeth98 in resolution 1.10, and, lastly, godly reason by the official consenting body of the Church.

His consecration in November 2003, over and against the unanimous warning of the primates in October, represented a public confirmation of that rejection by the presiding bishop and all those assembled.

Before 2003, the heretical bent of the Church was just that, a “bent”. After 2003, heresy became official.

A bishop in the catholic tradition is a bishop not just of his diocese, but of the whole church. He is to “share in the leadership of the Church throughout the world” ('79 BCP p.517) Further, by his life and doctrine, the bishop represents and embodies the life and doctrine of the Body. He is “called to guard the faith, unity, and discipline of the Church…and to be in all things a faithful pastor and wholesome example for the flock.” ('79 BCP p.517)

The bishop is an emblem of the teachings of the Church.

Thus, the elevation of a divorced man living in a sexual relationship with another man, represented a clear, deliberate, officially sanctioned change in the doctrine of the Episcopal Church. What scripture, tradition, communion, and reason forbid, we chose to bless. And on that day the Episcopal Church stepped outside the limits and boundaries of orthodoxy.

At GC2006, that step was reaffirmed.

The charges Fr. Woodward cites in his apology are true (though they are mischaracterized and misstated in his piece). I shall begin the process of demonstrating that in the next installment.

But first it is important to understand that the official adoption of heresy by the Episcopal Church is a matter of historical record. It took place in the summer of 2003 and was completed by November of that same year.

The video, Choose this Day, is accurate, correct, and “prophetic” in its portrayal of the current state of the Episcopal Church.

But the accusations in question (carefully articulated in the video) merely enumerate some of the legion of errors that under-girded the officially sanctioned heretical act of 2003.

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Comments:

Well done Matt.

Peace,

G+

[1] Posted by Sir Highmoor on 08-28-2006 at 10:10 AM • top

Excellent, simply excellent.  I am glad that you noted VGR’s status as “a divorced man living in a sexual relationship with another man.”  Many of the “orthodox” do not seem to mind his status as a divorcee, just as they overlooked the trigamous state of the new bishop of Northern California.  Had VGR dumped his wife in order to cohabit with a girl, would there have been a comparable protest?  Probably not.

[2] Posted by Laurence K Wells on 08-28-2006 at 10:27 AM • top

Matt,

In seminary I was taught that we followed the first seven councils.  Why just the first four?

[3] Posted by m+ on 08-28-2006 at 11:04 AM • top

Michael,

If you follow the conversation regarding the Common Cause statement of faith, you’ll see that the last three councils are also excepted in so far as they are in agreement with the Scriptures. The first four are consistent with the bible in full, there is some debate about the last three. I am not taking one side or the other, its just that the orthodox univerally agree on the first 4

[4] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-28-2006 at 11:09 AM • top

Thanks for the explanation, Matt.  I wasn’t trying to be mean.

[5] Posted by m+ on 08-28-2006 at 11:50 AM • top

I know Michael+ thanks for the comment. Some other people probably wondered the same thing.

[6] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-28-2006 at 11:52 AM • top

I remember Spong’s visit here in ‘03, presumably (among other things) to help shore up support for the Integrity agenda among the clergy and laity of Dio Nevada in preparation for the Dio Convention at which Ms Craw’s resolution favoring SSBs was passed, with the able assistance of Ms Schori from the chair. The convention took place that October, coincidentally the weekend following the Plano/Dallas ACC conference.

Since that time, this relatively tiny diocese has lost three very good priests—one accepted a position in another diocese, one was “asked” to retire, and a vigorous, talented, and dedicated young priest was effectively forced to resign his orders.  In all fairness, these losses were due at least as much to Ms Schori’s totalitarian management style as to her non-theology, but it’s quite clear that pastoral sensitivity to anyone other than members of Integrity is not on the radar of the current leadership of ECUSA.

[7] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-28-2006 at 12:42 PM • top

I meant, of course, AAC conference. Sorry…

[8] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-28-2006 at 12:46 PM • top

The main problem with these ECUSA people is PRIDE.  They cannot believe that things outside the rational, ordinary world exist.  Therefore, in their minds, an omnipotent, gracious, supernatural God—a God who can be born of a virgin, rise from the dead, and ascend into heaven—cannot exist. 

I hear people say, “MY God would never send anyone to hell.”  “MY God is a loving God and would never cause pain.”  All that is is egocentric babble.

Our job as Christians is to discern God’s nature by turning to His Word instead of putting our own attributes on God.  God is God.  He is Yahweh.  “I AM.”  He is not a creation of our rational thought.

I love the mysteries of our faith.  I love being able to say that there are some things that I, in my limited capacity, can never understand.  That’s where my faith comes in.  I rejoice that God has given me the gift of faith.  Praise God!

[9] Posted by MizMay on 08-28-2006 at 01:26 PM • top

Great article, Matt!

[10] Posted by Jackie on 08-28-2006 at 01:53 PM • top

Good job, Matt+. The list of TEC/ECUSA’s trangressions starts way back at +Pike. Our refusal to discipline +Pike was the crowbar that popped the lid of Pandora’s Box. There are too many things to mention on ECUSA’s naughty list to go into in detail but one of my personal favorites is the endorsement of the pagan fertility rite as an alternative liturgy by the ECUSA Office of Women’s Ministries. I have personally seen parish websites (Redeemer New Jersey comes to mind) that seem to advocate anything but traditional Christianity. ECUSA is not falsely accused. If anything, we have not been accusatory enough.

the snarkster

[11] Posted by the snarkster on 08-28-2006 at 04:26 PM • top

Craig Goodrich,

[12] Posted by Publius on 08-28-2006 at 04:58 PM • top

Craig Goodrich,

Would you elaborate Bp. Schori’s “totalitarian” management style? I am curious about what to expect come November. Also, her leadership approach will affect the “summit” in New York in September.

Sorry about the double post.

[13] Posted by Publius on 08-28-2006 at 05:03 PM • top

I expected something with a little more meat, Matt. This is the same old, same old with Spong this, Spong that. . .Woodward does not believe in the resurrection of Jesus like we do (he prefers the Biblical version, while we are free to make up our own and call everyone else a heretic). . Woodward does not believe in the Virgin Birth (even though he has affirmed belief in both doctrines, they are not the way we have litmus tested them—who cares what it means, only that the biological miracle happened, despite serious concerns of many of the NT scholars we put in opposition to Woodward) . . wacka, wacka..2003 changed things forever (and we want everything the way they were even 50 years ago with Blacks in their own churches and women characterized as property in the marriage service and certainly kept in their place and out of GC and Vestries..and back before the Filoque Clause and that great service “The Churching of Women” and no birth control and. . . .).  Is that what you folks want? And the arrogance of calling anyone who has departed from these norms as “heretic?” Shame on you. I am not, in your phrases, criticizing you or slandering you, I am just calling it like it is.

Extra! Extra! The church grows in many ways—and one of the ways it has been growing all along has been in separating out prejudice from Gospel, ignorance from responsiveness to God’s love. Jesus offended the Pharisees in precisely the way I and so many others of TEC offend you—guilty as charged. Remember the scene at the end of the parable of the prodigal son, where the Father invites the judgmental older brother into the party to welcome the younger brother who represented everything the older brother hated (Gene Robinson, Bp. Spong, women in authority). The parable ends with the older brother not able to enter the changed world of the kingdom/party. That part of the parable is addressed to you, really. Read, Mark, Learn and Inwardly Digest.

I appreciate the kindness and courtesy of several on this blog. I have tried, sometimes without success, to be kind and generous in the face of pretty ugly behavior. Instead of hiding behind “heretic,” try listening for the truth in these words.
Tom Woodward

[14] Posted by TBWSF on 08-28-2006 at 09:28 PM • top

Ok Tom.  For most of today I’ve been asking my fellow conservatives to take a deep breath and try to listen.  Some have, some haven’t.  Now I think it is time for you to take the same deep breath and engage in a little charitable listening.

I realize that you’ve had to (and will need to continue to) turn the other cheek over here but such is the call of the cross.

Here is my challenge for you: why does Spong really bother us conservatives?  You say we’re always Spong this, Spong that.  Many of us are guilty as charged.  But if you’re interested in listening (which I know you are), stop for a minute before you say, “Spong doesn’t represent TEC leadership” and ask, “What is it about Spong that is troublesome to my conservative brothers and sisters in Christ?”

Once you’ve figured that out, we can move on to the next question, “Why do the conservatives keep saying TEC leadership has embraced Spong’s theology?”  But let’s take it one step at a time.

If you aren’t sure of the answer, I’m sure if you asked some of us over here, we’d be glad to answer.  Peace.

[15] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-28-2006 at 09:46 PM • top

Tom,
Did you forget the prodigal son first repented?

[16] Posted by Jackie on 08-28-2006 at 10:06 PM • top

Mr. Woodward,

I wish every Rector in the Episcopal Church was as candid as you have, and advise his congregation that it has become acceptable in TEC to say you believe in the Virgin Birth and Resurrection even though you don’t believe it really happened in a physical sense.  That is the type of honesty and clarity that would allow the remaining parishioners to make their own choices.

I believe most of the rancor is generated against those who speak candidly about what they believe (and don’t believe) but those who are unwilling or unable to speak honestly.

[17] Posted by Going Home on 08-28-2006 at 10:17 PM • top

First, I have said over and over again that I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is what Scripture reports and what I believe with all my heart—what about that don’t you get? Sorry to be cross, but this is about the 73rd time this accusation has surfaced. Let it go, please.

Jackie, there is no evidence the younger son repented. He had a rehearsed speech that many believe did not represent repentance but ingratiation. There are two strains in the Gospels, one has an emphasis on repentance, the other focuses on the welcoming love of God without repentance, though it often came later.

Widening Gyre—thank you again for your graciousness. I think I have a good sense of why conservatives make a big deal out of Bishop Spong. I am curious by nature and have had long discussions with some of your best. Let me try some of what I have heard or sensed:

JS (Spong) does not seem to care about any boundaries, theological or any other. That invites chaos and the ground for belief is gone.

JS presents a sexy way of belief that looks so good to many who have doubts, but when you look for rock bottom, it is not there—only shifting sand.

Many conservatives prize security: Spong seems to delight in creating risk and insecurity.

Spong is not collegial in any common understanding of that word—that can only lead to a kind of individualism that will completely undercut any hope of Anglican comprehensiveness.

JS’s Biblical critique, which depends a lot on verbal dexterity, undercuts the authority of the Bible as it dissolves into individual interpretation unchecked by the experience and tradition of the Body of believers.

JS’s writings and speeches do not honor the heart of the matter, our existence as the Body of Christ on earth.

JS seems to isolate meaning completely from its source—that is incompatible with a theology of creation, an incarnational theology and a sacramental theology.

Is that OK as a start? I am well aware of the threat to many here. I was raised by a father who took me to church every Sunday for the early service—and then my college roommate did the same for my first two years of college! One of the things I inherited from all that was a bedrock belief in God and in Jesus Christ as Saviour. That has allowed me to read and test Spong, Tillich, Crossan, Borg and others—they are no threat to my orthodoxy, but I do understand how they can be to others and I respect that. Please, others, believe me when I say I respect that in you.

Second question: “Why do the conservatives keep saying TEC leadership has embraced Spong’s theology?” I believe the consecration of Gene Robinson as bishop made all of the above real—and, if we don’t stop here, it will be chaos and individualism all over the place. I respect that fear or judgment, though I do not agree with that. That sense is then fed with a lot of crap, as in some of the posts just preceding—about two people’s experience with Wicca attributed to thousands, with a venturesome posting about a pagan celebration on an unofficial website as representing the next revision of the BCP. Help your brothers and sisters to put aside the crap and we can begin to hope for a common future.

I am also aware that I am probably being somewhat reckless in insisting on the Biblical accounts of the resurrecton and on Paul’s teaching about the same over against a popular notion of a literal, physical resurrection. We both attribute the same meaning and significance to the event—and both would describe the event pretty much the same, but good people, leaders in TEC are somehow branded as heretical in the balance.

Both sides, Widening, owe our Lord our efforts to reach across the divide with fewer and fewer invectives. I have included several in this response, just to reassure you that I know I am still on the journey.
Tom Woodward

[18] Posted by TBWSF on 08-28-2006 at 10:40 PM • top

From the previous thread:

“You are not interested in genuine expressions of the Episcopal Church’s and traditional Anglican faith”

Actually we are.  That’s what the debate is all about.  Unfortunately there appears to be a big disagreement over exactly what traditional Anglican faith is…  This dismissive comment is yet another gratitious insult from someone who apparently believes dialogue consists of those ignorant “fundamentalists” bowing to the superior wisdom of TEC’s “moderates”. 

“Another good reason to be kind and generous to people like me is that church property will remain with us in any split, no matter how many schemes are trotted out like Province X, ALPO.”

At least we know what’s important to “moderates” in this debate.  This comment leaves me speechless…

As for your latest post- I sense a bit of frustration as these ignorant “fundies” just aren’t falling in line.  Given your tone I think you’d best just hang it up here.  And your version of the prodigal son is a bit contorted. If VGR repented I think Matt Kennedy would gladly welcome him back into the fold…

[19] Posted by Nevin on 08-28-2006 at 10:55 PM • top

Fortunately that is not Matt’s responsibility or job. Jesus has already welcomed VGR into the fold: it is his responsibility after all. How do I know he has been welcomed—look at the presence of the Holy Spirit throughout his ordained ministry. The Pauline marks of the Spirit have marked his ministry from the beginning. Before he was finally elected bishop (he had been nominated in several dioceses previously) he was pretty universally praised for his ministry, both as parish priest and administrator, as working in dioceses, for the national church, and as key mediator in international disputes. His loyalty to the church of Jesus Christ was not questioned—until with all the uproar he became famous (nothing he ever sought for himself). My brother, an Episcopal priest in NH, has long admired Gene’s ministry and his effectiveness in bringing people, gay and straight, to Jesus Christ. The same was true with all sides of the church.

Our job, as someone noted, is to gather: it is God’s job to sort.
Tom Woodward

[20] Posted by TBWSF on 08-28-2006 at 11:10 PM • top

No evidence of repentance?  The entire theme of Luke 15 is repentance!  The first parable of the chapter (The Lost Sheep) ends with Jesus saying “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”  The second (The Lost Coin) ends with Jesus saying “Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”  I think it takes a very novel interpretation to assume that the third (The Lost Son) suddenly has nothing to do with repentance.  “Many believe” this is not repentance.  Must be the “moderates” in the TEC. Really, who comes up with this stuff??

[21] Posted by Nevin on 08-28-2006 at 11:20 PM • top

Well, folks, the ballgame is over.  Our friend
Tom announces in the post above that Jesus has welcomed VGR into the fold.  He offers as proof the fact that revisionists all over the place, including Tom’s brother, think Gene is a swell guy, and that Gene’s ministry has been a resounding success.  Left unsaid is why that ministry has resulted in a flood of people leaving TEC, and why there are a flood of others who are about to.  Remember the spin when Gene was consecrated?  It was going to result in a massive influx of folks who would be rhapsodic about Gene’s consecration.  I know it’s poor form to hold revisionists accountable for their past pronouncements, but I just couldn’t resist.  On a related point, it’s also pretty pathetic to watch Tom try to position himself as a “moderate” in the current debate over the future of the Anglican Communion.  Associate Justice of the Supreme Court Antonin Scalia wrote not too long ago:  “What in the world is a moderate interpretation of a constitutional text?  Halfway between what it says and what we’d like it to say?”  That’s a pretty good description of the position of theological moderates on interpretation of Scripture.  I think I’ll stay with what Sripture says and leave it to the revisionists to make up their new, improved version of what they would like it to say.  I guess this post isn’t very irenic, but
after being on the end of 35 or 40 years of revisionist sophistry, I’m running a little low on irenic.

[22] Posted by William R. Hurt on 08-29-2006 at 12:13 AM • top

Mr. Hurt,while you confess being not much on the irenic in the present ‘dialogue’ you have a great handle on spotting the ironic.

[23] Posted by paddy on 08-29-2006 at 12:21 AM • top

“The Pauline marks of the Spirit have marked his [+Robinson’s] ministry from the beginning.” What?
Allow me to point out that he has emerged, for one thing, as a pro-abortion activist, and this stance alone will unquestionably increase the flow of members out of TEC.

[24] Posted by Paula on 08-29-2006 at 01:41 AM • top

Fr. Tom,

I’m not sure you read my article. I have yet to address point by points your apologetic. I simply was pointing out, before we get started, that the case for ECUSA’s status as a heretic church is an objctive one that is NOT based on Spong or Borg et al, but based on the events of GC2003-GC2006. In an objective sense, TEC stands now outside the limits of orthodoxy. That was my argument.

[25] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 04:23 AM • top

As far as forgiving VGR, Fr. Tom, you are absolutely right. That is not my job. But I certainly pray that he will repent of his sexual immorality and be restored. In fact, we must all repent of our sins. I would gladly lay down my opposition to him were he to lay down his determination to emgage in, teach, and bless what God has revealed to be sin, leading countless souls away from the light of Christ.

[26] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 05:30 AM • top

The more I read from Rev. Woodward, the more I feel for him.  He grasps, perhaps dimly, that he is on the losing side of this struggle, and is on the wrong side of history.  He fairly begs us to believe that he really is an orthodox Christian.  The high water mark of his entire argument is:
“Another good reason to be kind and generous to people like me is that church property will remain with us in any split, no matter how many schemes are trotted out like Province X, ALPO.”

This reminds me of the wounded serpent which bites itself to expedite its own demise.  Church buildings can be replaced with surprising rapidity.  Mr Woodward ought to meditate on the progress of Grace Anglican, Orange Park FL
(http://www.anglicanalliancenf.org/) which has raised $4M already, after marching out of its properties on Easter Day.
But replacing the thousands of people who have departed ECUSA in the last generation isn’t likely to happen at all.  So Mr Woodward and his co-religionists can (like Pyrrhus)enjoy their legal victories, struggle to make the mortgage payments, stave off foreclosure, and die ignominiously.  Yes, I feel for him.

[27] Posted by Laurence K Wells on 08-29-2006 at 07:12 AM • top

All right, folks.  Our brother in Christ Tom has graciously responded to my question about why we over on our side are troubled by the likes of Spong.  Now before you jump off into the world of “criticism of the absent” (that is, criticizing him for what he DOES NOT write about Spong), I ask for you to consider some charitable “criticism of the present” (that is, what do you think of what he did write).

OK, I’ll start (if you insist).

I thought his comments about bounderies and collegiality were very good.  I’m not sure I would have expressed those concerns in that way so I welcome the different perspective/approach.  I would have been less charitable and probably used words like “disrespect for Scripture” and “spiritual arrogance” so Tom’s phrases are definitely an improvement on the theme.

Tom,

if I might further help your understanding of us conservatives, I would suggest you go one step further in your analysis of Spong.  In particular, given what you have said about him, if I were to follow Spong, where would I end up with respect to my understanding of Jesus Christ?  Could I as a conservative, evangelical Episcopalian embrace Spong without having to change my understanding of the life and work of Jesus Christ?  Or, in keeping with my framework, does Spong’s Jesus square up with our Prayer Book’s Jesus?

Once we get through this conversation, we can turn next to why many of us believe (as Matt has been saying) that Spong’s theology has been accepted/embraced by TEC’s leadership.  I am not ignoring what you wrote about this point (which was helpful) but want to make sure we connect all dots before moving to the next picture.


Peace.

[28] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-29-2006 at 07:55 AM • top

Well, usually when you’re in a hole, the best advice is to stop digging.  Tom Woodward will have none of that, apparently, as he angrily reaffirms his heresy and demands that we call it orthodoxy.  I imagine the spectacle of it all has to be getting a little embarrassing for his defenders on this site, what with his sputtering (and uninformed, which seems to be a pattern) threats over property and his feverish ramblings about things that were never said.

Did you know, for example – I, personally, missed it in my first fifty readings of Matt’s piece – that Matt+, “want[s] everything the way they were even 50 years ago with Blacks in their own churches and women characterized as property in the marriage service and certainly kept in their place and out of GC and Vestries..and back before the Filoque Clause and that great service “The Churching of Women” and no birth control?”  (Hey, Tom, did you know Matt’s wife is assistant rector at his parish?)

You didn’t?  But our resident “moderate” said he did, and he said that’s what we all want.  Why, I suppose that’s obvious: affirm the beliefs laid out in the Nicene Creed and you’re a racist and misogynist.

Notice, also, that the problem with Spong is our fault.  It’s not that he’s wrong, but us knuckle-draggers, “prize security,” and Spong, “delight[s],” in taking that away.  Plus, Spong isn’t, “collegial,” so what we really hate him for is rocking the boat.  In short, the error lies in our own backwardness, not in anything Spong has written or said.

Speaking of verbal dexterity, Rev. Woodward flashes quite a bit in opening the text of the prodigal son for us.  Just as I missed Matt’s call for women to be considered property above, I had always missed the nuance that the older brother hated Gene Robinson, Spong and women in authority.  Now, that’s prophecy for you.

[29] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 08:33 AM • top

“Woodward does not believe in the resurrection of Jesus like we do (he prefers the Biblical version, while we are free to make up our own and call everyone else a heretic)”

Tom Woodward,

I can’t be certain of what you believe about the resurrection of Jesus because you haven’t explained yourself.  You seem to me (from what I’ve read in several of your comments) to be contrasting Paul’s notion of resurrection (probably 1 Cor. 15) with that found in the gospels, and claiming that you affirm the former but not the latter.

If that’s what you’re saying (and I’m reading between the lines) you’re echoing a fairly recent move in revisionist NT scholarship.  It seems to go back about forty years to the writings of Willi Marxsen.  In Anglican circles, it seems to have been picked up by Reginald Fuller and Peter (now Archbishop) Carnley.  In Roman Catholic circles it was advocated by Edward Schillebeeckx.

Exegetically and theologically, it won’t do.  I explain why here:

Against a Subjectivist Interpretation of 1 Cor.15
 

Exegetically, it depends on a misreading of Paul’s contrast between a soma psychikos and a soma pneumatikos, which modern language translations mistranslate as if Paul were a Platonist, contrasting a “physical body” with a “spiritual body.”  The adjective psychikos does not mean “physical,” but, for lack of a better English word, “soulish.”  The key parallel in Paul is 1 Cor. 2:14, where Paul contrasts the “natural man” (psychikos anthropos)  with the “spiritual man” (pneumatikos anthropos). If Paul understands the resurrection body in 1 Cor. 15 to not be “literally physical,” then the “spiritual man” of 2:14 would also not be literally physical. But whatever Paul was, he was not a Platonist, contrasting physical with spiritual.  And he certainly was not saying in 2:14 that some living Christians do not have literal physical bodies.  Ergo, he could not be saying in 1 Cor 15 that the resurrection body is not literally physical.

Theologically, the new reading anachronistically reads Paul as if he had anticipated Schleiermacher by 1800 years.  Supposedly Paul is not talking about appearances of a “literal physical” resurrected Christ seen with physical eyes, but of subjective experiences (some kind of awareness or feeling of grace or forgiveness) that led early Christians to the conclusion Christ was still present, and must therefore in some sense, still be alive.  This experience was then interpreted in language of resurrection and appearances that did not actually take place. 

This, of course, is nothing but projection, believing that because we are liberal Protestants, Paul must have been one as well.

The historic orthodox understanding was defended by Michael Ramsey in his book The Resurrection of Christ, by Rowan Williams in Resurrection, and the final nail was put in the coffin of the Marxsen reading by N. T. Wright’s The Resurrection of the Son of God.

Like the revisionist reinterpretations of the biblical passages that address same-sex activity, the revisionist interpretations that try to contrast Paul’s understanding of resurrection with that of the synoptics are untenable, exegetically and theologically. After Wright, especially, to continue to advocate a thoroughly discredited position should be embarrassing.

But if this is not the position you’re endorsing, I am willing to stand corrected.

[30] Posted by William Witt on 08-29-2006 at 08:40 AM • top

I do sincerely hope that Woodward+ and all his revisionista/moderista bretheren are as happy as clams in their almost empty properties. It seems the only Gospel they adhere to is the “we call the shots, we keep the building Gospel”. Well, keep them, bud. I would really and truly rather worship in a garbage dump than than worship in a beautiful building that serves up the revisionist garbage that TEC/ECUSA espouses today. To paraphrase the old country song, “I’d rather drink muddy water and live in a hollow log, Than be stuck here in ECUSA, treated like a dirty dog”.

the snarkster

[31] Posted by the snarkster on 08-29-2006 at 08:47 AM • top

A previous poster says he feels sorry for me. Don’t bother. I am a joyous Episcopalian—and I long ago chose Jesus over Leviticus (Jesus says there is a choice).

I don’t have to choose between Paul and the Gospels. I embrace them both. Not everything has to be tied down, as most folks here believe.

Many of you complain about people leaving the Episcopal Church—they are not leaving the liberal Episcopal Churches. Where I’ve been, the growth has been terrific—and many are coming because of Gene Robinson. The studies show that there is a decline across the board in Christian churches and that you cannot blame it on VGR. You can sleep better now, OK? Give it up.

Your charge of VGR and, I suppose, everyone else you don’t like of being “pro-abortion” carries no water. The Episcopal Church’s stand on abortion is a very powerful statement—read it. It is not “pro-abortion.” I have not read or heard anyone in the church who is “pro-abortion.” Give it up.
Tom Woodward

[32] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 08:53 AM • top

Rev.Woodward: With all due respect, what planet are you from?

the snarkster

[33] Posted by the snarkster on 08-29-2006 at 08:56 AM • top

Snarkster,

He’s exhibiting classic postmodern deconstructionism—redefining all the terms in order to combat the rhetorical power of the elite.  ; > )

Pro-Abortion isn’t really pro-abortion.  The literal resurrection isn’t really the physical resurrection.  Orthodox is *his* kind of orthodox, not the church’s orthodox.

It’s a good case study in communication theory.  One could take the past three threads in which TBWSF shows his stuff and do a metaanalysis worthy of Derrida.

I think it’s great that he’s posting here.  We need to be reminded of the two gospels that reside in the Episcopal church.  And this reminder is pretty stark, pretty compelling, pretty overwhelming.

[34] Posted by Sarah on 08-29-2006 at 09:03 AM • top

Hey, Sarah Hey! Don’t get me wrong. I’m tickled pink to have him posting here. It saves me a trip over to Fr.Jakes place to see what the opposition has to say.

the snarkster tongue wink

[35] Posted by the snarkster on 08-29-2006 at 09:07 AM • top
Jesus offended the Pharisees in precisely the way I and so many others of TEC offend you—guilty as charged.

It would do, perhaps, to remember that the prodigal son was welcomed back to the world he had left, after his adventuring into new paths not approved by his father. The story ends with his return to his father, not his father running out to embrace his new way of life.

[36] Posted by oscewicee on 08-29-2006 at 09:23 AM • top

“I long ago chose Jesus over Leviticus (Jesus says there is a choice).”

Wrong choice (Mt. 5:17). It’s Leviticus where Jesus got all those obsolete ideas about loving your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18).

[37] Posted by William Witt on 08-29-2006 at 09:23 AM • top

I believe several of you caught my point about how your stance about tradtion, with which you damn GC 2003 and VGR’s consecration, commits you to opposing that string of “innovations” such as integrated churches. Can’t have it both ways, folks—unless, by secret revelation, God has spoken to you in English about which innovations are OK and which are heresies. Listen to the accent, folks, that may not have been God speaking exclusively to you.

Why don’t you go after the real heresies, such as church people who support college and professional football. The touching of pigskin is expressly forbidden in Holy Scripture—or has someone given you the privilege of accepting only the verses which fit your predelictions or prejudices?

Can some of you tell me how you came to such a privileged position of knowledge that you can call others heretics while failing to honor the written word of Scripture? Did CNN miss the passing of the mantle from Pat Robertson?
Tom Woodward

[38] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 09:27 AM • top

Tom the level of ignorance with regard to 1. the scriptures 2. the theology of your interlocutors 3.the place of tradition in orthodox evangelical Anglicanism

is truly breathtaking. Before castigating an idea, it is a really good thing to actually know what it is you are castigating.

[39] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 09:33 AM • top

Mr. Witt, you make my point, exactly. Jesus chose from the Holiness Code in Leviticus (which would have us welcome those who differ from us, even VGR) while dumping the Purity Code, which drives most of Stand Firm. Your problems are not with VGR or Tom Woodward, but with Jesus.
Tom Woodward,
follower of Jesus

[40] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 09:35 AM • top

Keep going, Tom, you’re doing great.

[41] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 09:38 AM • top

Tom - It sounds as if you are giving up on the listening process with your little rant above. The Word of God is clear and you are having trouble with the interpretation being offered by Matt and the Church. Your views are heretical. Repent and return to the Lord.

[42] Posted by Sir Highmoor on 08-29-2006 at 09:41 AM • top

Words fail me.

the snarkster mad

[43] Posted by the snarkster on 08-29-2006 at 09:41 AM • top

I said after Matt’s first post in this series that this was an enormously important conversation for us all to have.  It still is, if we can find a real moderate to participate.

In the meantime, if anybody from the Network is reading, Tom Woodward has given you enough material in the last few days for Choose This Day II and Choose This Day III.

[44] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 09:47 AM • top

Tom,

I knew it would not be long before you resorted to the shellfish argument.

Here’s a section of an article I wrote to my congregation about the same:

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13
Now let’s turn briefly to the Old Testament. I have saved this part of my discussion until now because the material we find in Romans and 1st Corinthians establishes that Paul not only carried forward the OT prohibition against homosexual behavior, but added much to it, providing the reason behind its prohibition, namely that it is perversion of the created order stemming from the Fall. It is helpful to have this NT context before turning to the OT because the OT passages which condemn homosexuality as an “abomination”
or “detestable” (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13) have been mischaracterized as:


•  Part of the temple/tabernacle purity code, which was abolished in the NT when through his sacrifice Jesus became the new Temple, and

•  Part of a xenophobic attempt to retain Hebrew identity over and against surrounding peoples. Since that particular social need is no longer extant, the law created to meet it is no longer necessary . . . so goes the argument.

Inspired by the Holy Spirit, Paul as we have already seen, and Jesus and the NT Church as we will see, understood the prohibitions found in Leviticus 18, including Leviticus 18:22, to be primarily moral in nature. Though there were most definitely ritual ramifications to transgressing the laws that are spelled out in Leviticus 20:13 (namely that one became unclean), the laws in themselves were understood to be primarily moral in nature. Thus, the either/or character of the most recent revisionist polemic must be corrected by a both/and point of view.

There are three categories of Levitical law: purity/ritual, theocratic and moral. Only the last category—moral—was intended to stand eternally. 

The Purity/Ritual Levitical Laws:
The purity/ritual laws have to do with tabernacle and temple. They were introduced by God to reinforce the concepts of holiness and bodily purity. The rules and regulations associated with the temple no longer apply to Christians for the very good reason that Jesus Christ, in his body and through his blood, has fulfilled and replaced the temple, as the writer of Hebrews makes clear in chapters 9-10 and as Peter’s vision makes clear in Acts 10:9-23. Christ is our purity and our sacrifice.

The Theocratic Levitical Laws:
The theocratic laws had to do with governing the people of Israel during the time of the judges and kings. They were intended to reinforce the concept of Israel being set apart as a holy nation and people. Because of rebellion and idolatry, those kingdoms were taken away. The new Kingdom of God introduced in and through Jesus Christ has superceded the old theocratic covenant, and therefore, the laws regarding governance in the Promised Land no longer apply.

Jesus did not come to change these laws, but rather, as he put it, to fulfill them. As the representative Israelite, he fulfilled the mission in and through the law that Israel as a nation failed to fulfill. In obedience even unto death, he became the light to the nations and the glory of God’s people Israel . With Jesus’ death and resurrection, the people of God have been given an eternal purity in his blood and have been ushered into a new sort of theocracy, the Kingdom of God, that includes all who call Jesus Lord. The old has passed away, God is making all things new.

[45] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 09:49 AM • top

cont…

Notice, however, that this fulfillment, this new creation, was initiated and begun by the sovereign Lord and verified and authenticated not apart from the law and the prophets, but through and according to them. This new covenant in blood was not voted on or dictated by the Sanhedrin or by popular demand, but it was handed down and authenticated by God himself at the resurrection and ascension. Moreover, the NT writers themselves, inspired by the Holy Spirit, attest to all of these things.

The Moral Levitical Laws are Eternal
Now we come to the third category, the moral law. These have not been superceded or changed. In this category you will find the Ten Commandments, the laws regarding sexual morality, and the laws regarding the poor and the foreigners. These laws are consciously alluded to and purposely mentioned by Jesus and the NT writers as absolutely binding in the new Kingdom.

The present debate has centered upon whether or not the sexual regulations listed in Leviticus 18 are to be categorized as purity/ritual laws or moral laws. It is clear, however, from the fact that the prohibitions against all forms of sexual behavior outside of monogamous heterosexual marriage are consistently and clearly condemned in the NT, including implicitly and explicitly homosexual conduct, that Jesus and the apostles considered these laws to be moral laws established at creation and in force until the end. That the NT writers considered them to be moral in nature should be clear from our discussion of Romans 1 and 1st Corinthians 6:9 above. That Jesus understood these laws to be moral rather than purity/ritual is clear from his discourse in Mark 7:9-23 (discussed below). That the early church held and enforced the same understanding is clear from the instructions to Gentile believers found in Acts 15:20.

Jesus does not address homosexual behavior as distinct from other illicit sexual behaviors, but he condemns it all the same by his negative application of the word “pornia” in Mark 7:21-22 and Matthew 15:19. The Greek word “pornia” in the context of first century Judaism referred specifically to the Levitical laws found in Leviticus 18 (homosexuality is specifically mentioned in 18:22).

 

The rabbis of the first century often used shorthand phrases to refer to the law, as we saw with the phrase “the law and the prophets” which refers to the Tanahk. “Pornia” was another shorthand word that, again, was used to refer to all the acts and behaviors listed in Leviticus 18 from incest to bestiality, from adultery to homosexuality. Therefore, when Jesus says, “But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander . . . ”(Matt 15:18-19), he indicates very clearly that all the acts considered sexually immoral in the Levitical law code, from heterosexual promiscuity to homosexual partnerships, are to be considered immoral by his disciples as well. They are, in other words, moral in nature and thus eternal.

The very same word, “pornia,” is used in Acts 15:20 by the church council in Jerusalem. They command Gentile believers to abstain from “pornia,” again, a direct reference to and a clear endorsement of the Levitical sexual code.

In sum, throughout scripture you will find not one positive or even neutral word relating to homosexual activity. When referenced, the homosexual drive and the homosexual act are always and everywhere referenced as sins consistent with and arising out of the fallen-ness of humanity. To paraphrase Dr. Gagnon once again, homosexual behavior is a behavior that is proscribed by both testaments implicitly and explicitly, pervasively, severely, absolutely and without shadow or shade.

[46] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 09:49 AM • top

Phil, you’re not really helping here.  How can we get this back on track?

I’d say Matt (and others) aren’t handling this much better than Tom is. 

For the record, I’m still of the impression that Tom sincerely believes he is a representative of the moderates in TEC.  Sure, he starts from a position of biblical knowledge vastly superior to most moderates I know (who tend to be rather clueless about such matters).  But he has consistently maintained his faith in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord and not one of us has the right to say, “Tom, you’re lying.”  We don’t have that super power (at least I don’t).

Now, it’s true we can ask how certain statements he has made relate to Christ as Lord and Savior, and we can say that certain of his statements seem to call into question those beliefs, but above all we should engage in this conversation in a charitable and Christ-affirming manner.

[47] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-29-2006 at 10:03 AM • top

WG,

1. I am not sure where you get the idea that anyone is calling Tom a liar.

2. Mormons consistently and sincerely maintain their faith in Jesus Christ. The problem is that the Jesus they proclaim is not the Jesus revealed in the scriptures. That is the problem here as well. No one is questioning his sincerity. I am questioning the foundations of the faith he is proclaiming.

3. Your mediation, while appreciated and well intentioned, is also wrong headed. These are important issues that will inevitably be debated with passion. There have been no personal insults delivered. Ideas and assertions have been subject to withering criticism, as they should be.

[48] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 10:10 AM • top

I’m sorry you don’t view me as being helpful, WG.  Let me restate, first, that this is a very important conversation for us all to have.

Sadly, I have been increasingly dismayed by the tone and content of Tom Woodward’s posts, which, as you can read for yourself, have ranged from inferences that conservatives are racists and misogynists, to the belief that taking a view of Christian belief differing from Nicene theology is orthodox, to not-so-vague threats to seize the property of those that depart ECUSA.  Frankly, I’m a little tired of that kind of, “conversation,” which is neither moderate nor fruitful.

I, too, usually appreciate the tone you contribute to the various discussions across the blogosphere, but the Tom Woodward being represented here really doesn’t merit your defense.  He may be a great guy who just doesn’t take criticism well, but most of his comments here have gone beyond the pale.  Other readers can draw their own conclusions.

[49] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 10:29 AM • top

And I thought I’d read some bizarre things but it seems that the ‘Jesus’ people here have a problem is not the Lord Jesus Christ but the imaginative innovation of some who would use God words to condone heresy and aberration of marriage.
William Barclay has a pair of insightful treatments of 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that more than apply here(taken from Barclay’s NT and Letters To Timothy,Titus and Philemon)‘For there will come a time when men will refuse to listen to sound teaching,but,because they have ears which have to be continually titillated with novelties,they will bury themselves under a mound of teachers,whose teaching suits their own lusts after forbidden things.They will avert their ears from the truth,and they will turn to extravagant tales.‘p202 Letters To Timothy,Titus and Philemon
Barclay’s translation is even a bit more blunt:‘The time will come when they will refuse to listen to sound teaching.They will collect a motley assortment of teachers to tickle their ears by telling what they want to hear.They will deliberately shut their ears to the truth,and will wander down the byways of mythology.‘2 Tim.4:3-4 Barclay

[50] Posted by paddy on 08-29-2006 at 10:57 AM • top

My apologies,I missed part of verse 3 in my citation of verse 3 in the Barclay NT,here it is completely:‘The time will come when they will refuse to listen to sound teaching.They will collect a motley assortment of teachers to tickle their ears by telling them the things they want to hear.’

[51] Posted by paddy on 08-29-2006 at 11:07 AM • top

Matt, your analysis of the Purity Code is thoroough but it is your analysis. Of greater import is the ways Jesus saw it in conflict with his own mission and ministry. He notes that conflict over and over again and presents radical alternatives to their authority, most prominently in the Parable of the Leaven and The Parable of the Marriage Feast.

As I noted earlier, both Reformed and (most of) Conservative Judaism, who know these things better than either of us, have rejected the Purity Code’s condemnation of homosexuality and homosexual relationships. They saw what Jesus saw: they conflicted with what we know about real relationships. I would love to walk you and others on this blog through the life and teaching of Jesus—it’s very illuminating. Maybe I can get you a discount on my third book, which should be out fairly soon.

Another subject—are there any mainline seminaries you all approve. I’ve taught at Nashotah House and the Graduate Theological Union (affiliated with CDSP) and recently published a major article in The Sewanee Theological Review. The article in STR will really send you into orbit.

It is fascinating to me, though, to watch Jesus constantly enlarging the boundaries of the Beloved of God, while you are working full time to narrow them. You seem to focus on behavior condemned in certain contexts (as in Romans) and then apply it to all contexts. It is very much like taking a condemnation of battering women and condemning all marriage because of it. What Paul and the Episcopal Church has chosen to do is to look, as Jesus tells us to do, at the quality of the relationship and the marks of the Holy Spirit in those relationships and heeding those qualities of faithfulness, love, caring, mutual affection and fidelity. It is a lot more complicated than Category A and Category B. Both are full of complexity and not amenable to simple “heresy” or “apostate.”
Tom Woodward
Certified Orthodox in the Traditional Meaning

[52] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 11:26 AM • top

Mr. Witt, you make my point, exactly. Jesus chose from the Holiness Code in Leviticus (which would have us welcome those who differ from us, even VGR) while dumping the Purity Code, which drives most of Stand Firm. Your problems are not with VGR or Tom Woodward, but with Jesus.

One really does get tired of these kind of sloppy mischaracterizations of historic orthodoxy.  Jesus did not abolish a purity code in favor of a moral code (an invention of Countryman and Borg).  There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus abolished a single prescription of the Torah, with the possible exception of the food laws.

I’ve responded to these kinds of arguments in detail here:

Arguments for same-sex behavior: outlines and inadequacies

and here:

William Witt Responds to Tobias Haller

Matt has already addressed this above.  The Reader’s Digest condensed response is: Read Art. VII of the 39 Articles.

[53] Posted by William Witt on 08-29-2006 at 11:40 AM • top

Dr. Witt,
My article in The Sewanee Theological Review deals with some of this. Luke’s version of The Parable of the Mustard Seed, noted by most scholars as the earliest version, has Jesus proving a setting which is a direct violation of the Purity Code.

The Parable of the Leaven is, again, a direct attack on it, as is, I believe, the Parable of the Marriage Feast.

Then, again, you can find Jesus having “table fellowship” with the tax collectors and sinners” giving great offense to the guardians of the Torah and its prohibitions.

There is good evidence that this teaching forms the basis or a good part of the basis for the growing opposition to Jesus by the Jewish leaders.

Tom Woodward

[54] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 11:51 AM • top

Tom Woodard,

Robert Gagnon’s material on Jesus in The Bible and Homosexual Practice is sufficient IMHO to address this question about Jesus’ attitude to the OT law.  In contrast to the gnostics and Marcionites, the early church did not find itself rejecting parts of the OT as morally deficient.  In fact, it developed the distinctions made already in Irenaeus, developed definitively by Aquinas, and echoed in Hooker and the 39 Articles between moral, ceremonial, and civil law precisely to avoid making this error.

[55] Posted by William Witt on 08-29-2006 at 11:59 AM • top

“In earlier days he had attacked her with persecutions from without; but now that he was debarred from this, he resorted to unscrupulous imposters as instruments of spiritual corruption and ministers of destruction, and employed new tactics, contriving by every possible means that imposters and cheats, by cloaking themselves with the same name as our religion, should at one and the same time bring to the abyss of destruction every believer they could entrap..”

Eusebius, History of the Church

Sadly every generation has to fight heresy in the church as Eusebius records.  I get the strong feeling that the “moderates” in TEC would have been inviting Basilidies, Carpocrates, et. al. into their churches had they been around ca. 100 (like Spong).  I view Matt Kennedy as modern day Irenaeus who, per Eusebius, “(was) busy at that time fighting for the truth and eloquently championing the beliefs of the apostles and the Church…(setting) down on paper for the benefit of later generations the means of defence against these very heresies.”

A bit over the top?  Perhaps, but that’s the way it looks from this vantage point.

[56] Posted by Nevin on 08-29-2006 at 11:59 AM • top

Matt,

Again I may have misread certain posts but I certainly got the impression that several folks here were calling Tom a liar about his description of himself as a moderate and as orthodox.  I guess you could argue that they were not calling him a liar but just simply telling him he was wrong (perhaps the withering criticism overwhelmed my poor little brain).

Now, about passionate debate.  I agree with you that these are important issues and very personal issues and issues that we are all here quite passionate about.  I agree with you that positions can and should be refuted/responded to with further argument (and I’ll put my arguments head to head with anyone else’s).  But you and I apparently disagree over the proper tone in which to carry out this argument/debate/discussion.  Or, for some reason, I read certain comments as being inappropriate while you read right over them.

Let me give a few examples of what I would like to see less of from my fellow conservative evangelical Episcopalians:

1.  Responding to someone who claims to be a brother in Christ but who you’ve never met nor with whom you’ve engaged in significant discussion with the following short response: “Your views are heretical.  Repent and return to the Lord.”

2.  Referring to a brother in Christ’s level of ignorance as being “breathtaking.”

3.  Referring to a brother in Christ’s efforts at explaining himself as being “pathetic.”

4.  Describing the comments of a brother in Christ as “sputtering and uninformed” and as “feverish ramblings.”

Now, do I believe we have the right and duty to point out the inconsistencies or errors in the ways of our Worthy Opponents? You bet your Arse I do.  I spend (waste?) a good portion of everyday trying to do just that over at Jake’s Place, Mark Harris’ Sus-sus-sudio, Jim Naughton’s “Starting a blog about the Book of Daniel TV Show Seemed like a cool idea” site, and Susan “We Start with the Inch and Now Take the Rest” Russell’s site. 

What I’ve realized is that for some of our Worthy Opponents, given their particular world view, the tone of our discussion matters more to them then the actual topic.  I realize that is hard for some hardcore “We’re Orthodox, We’re Right, and Here’s Why” folks over here to hear, but it is true.  We have to EARN the right to be heard (to borrow from Young Life’s creed) before we start shouting. 

And Phil, I agree with you that some of Tom’s comments were over board. So what? Remember the end of The Untouchables when Ness has just put away Capone.  He has that great Mamet line, “I have become what I beheld and I am content that I have done right.”  That may be great theater but I don’t think it gels with our command to love our enemies. 

Hey, we’re all working through this together with fear and trembling.  I value your efforts, too.  Peace to you both.

[57] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-29-2006 at 12:05 PM • top

I’ll try this in a tone that might be more satisfactory to Widening Gyre.  Rev. Woodward, when you say that a particular condemnation should not be taken out of its specific context, how, then, might you come to the conclusion than it is un-Christian to steal?  The Ten Commandments were given in a specific context, at a really tough time for the Israelites, when this kind of behavior would have been disruptive to their forty-year journey.  Once everybody had settled into the Promised Land and wealthy people began to emerge, such a prohibition would become rather archaic.  It certainly seems archaic today when wealth is so concentrated in the hands of a few.  One might argue that the poor stealing from the rich is an absolute good, especially given the imperative of our baptismal covenant that we insist on justice and dignity for those wronged people.

Do you think Scripture has anything to teach us about stealing?  Or, are we removing it from its proper context?  Or, is the convention against stealing simply a construct of today’s society, which might be changed?

[58] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 12:13 PM • top

WG, your points are well taken.

May I come at this from another angle?

Let’s say you and a friend, both good Americans, are discussing the federal budget for space travel.  You support it as a good and worthy cause, and your friend thinks it is a hopeless waste of taxpayer money.  That’s a perfectly valid, and, maybe even interesting, public policy discussion.  The conversation might even get heated; that’s fine, you’re friends, and you’re both convinced your respective positions are right.

Once your friend starts going on about how the NASA budget is all intended to benefit Bush’s friends in Texas, and that, by the way, Bush ought to be impeached, and the whole moon landing was staged in California anyway, it’s time to stop talking.  I concede you’re right that the best way to end the conversation is not to mercilessly mock your friend for his views.  Perhaps that’s been my error here.  However, it is an equal error to continue to engage with your friend as though he is still making reasonable points.

“So what” that Tom’s comments were overboard?  “So what” that he says we all want blacks segregated in their own churches and want women to be treated as property?  Those comments go beyond overboard.  They are vicious slanders that ought not to be taken as serious debating points, or evidence of good faith.

Maybe we’re all starting to buy into the idea that Anglicanism is church of nothing.  Well, it isn’t.  It’s a church of something, and, while the ecclesiology of the Communion may prevent us from having a concrete list of what those “somethings” are, at least a few of them ought to be acknowledged just by virtue of being what has, “been believed everywhere, always and by all.”  If you dispute those things, you are, by definition, a heretic.  Note that, as the Church defines heresy, the heretic is still considered a Christian, but a Christian who disputes a point of the Faith as taught by the Church.  As such, the person is expected to repent of this sin and acknowledge authentic teaching.

That it has become bad form to point this out speaks badly for our church and explains why we are where we are.

[59] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 12:35 PM • top

In both Part I & most of my reading of II, I didn’t post because I felt as though I didn’t have the Anglican chops to wade in this water. I still don’t, but I’m posting anyway.  As I’ve often said here, I grew up Southern Baptist and I don’t have the prospective of a cradle Episcopalian.  So as I write this and if you are still reading, Fr. Woodward, please understand that I am not attacking, but explaining the position of one person and those she has talked to.  In the south, there are quite a few former SBs in TEC pews. 

I no longer attend a SB church for many reasons, but a key reason is because the interpretations, especially in the south, were often too fundamental and too unforgiving of those who weren’t on-spot fundamental.  For example, if you believe God created the world but don’t feel He necessarily did it in 6 periods of 24 hours, I’ve had SB church members tell me that lack of stringent belief alone was sending me to hell.  Some who read this may wonder why, if I don’t “interpret” all the way to the other end of the spectrum, I’m now an Episcopalian.  My answer is that I’m not - I’m an Anglican.  For me, there is a difference and I believe that is true of others here.  I’m also finding everyone has there edge of the envelope as far as scripture interpretation is concerned.  The TEC’s moves in GC2003 and GC2006 that scripture can be changed by a democratic vote went way beyond what I feel is looking at various interpretations of scripture. 

As an Anglican, I believe many of us look to the widest part of communion we can find - those who may not agree with us on every point, but who don’t embrace a theological view (or lack thereof) that we absolutely can’t be in communion with.  Spong is someone most of us can’t be in communion with.  The Catholic Church’s “add ons” in the Middle Ages became something that men like Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer could no longer be in communion with.  And history is repeating itself - TEC’s “add ons” are becoming something that a host of others who post here cannot be in communion with. 

If those of us who felt out of communion with TEC were a random bunch - a few in each parish or a parish or two here and there, we should leave.  That isn’t the case.  You have many parishes and several diocese where the majority feel out of communion with TEC.  That’s how the Anglican church was formed in the first place, just as the Episcopal Church was formed out of the rebellion of a colonists.  This is our rebellion.  The only difference is, we’re rebelling to stay in the Anglican fold and leave what TEC has mutated into.

[60] Posted by Tami on 08-29-2006 at 12:54 PM • top

Phil,

I think the call in Windsor for an Anglican Covenant reflects the desire of the majority of AC members to be a church of something.  Now comes the hard part, right?

I liked your comment about the power of the Church (noted your capital C) to define heresy.  That of course begs the question, “What Church are you talking about? What represents that Church? How does that Church act?” 

If you’re talking general Body of Christ-type church, then you’re going to have a difficult time figuring out how that particular Church acts because it is made up of so many different denominations all claiming to be representative of the Body.  I think Matt and Tom have stumbled into that swampy territory in their Part III comments about the debate among the “scholars.” 

If you’re talking Anglican/Episcopal denomination-type Church, then we’re on stronger footing because we have a framework (at least in Windsor’s opinion) of how to have that conversation.  I wonder what Tom’s view of that Windsor framework is?  I wonder what his group claims to be the “moderate” position on Windsor.  It would seem to me that the vote on B033 would suggest the moderate position in TEC right now is to support Windsor.

And your questions about the Ten Commandments were well-phrased.  What I hope Tom will realize is that interpretation of Scripture is a spectrum, not simply an “EITHER/OR” absolute literalist/nebulous pick n choose affair.  For many, the interpretation of Scripture is part of a very comprehensive understanding of Scripture’s purpose in light of the actions of Christ.  Once you’ve got a handle on what exactly you believe Scripture’s purpose to be, then you take it accordingly.  As C.S. Lewis said, where it is historical, take it historically, where it is literal, take it literally, where it is allegorical, take it allegorically, etc.

[61] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-29-2006 at 02:21 PM • top

Tom Woodward said:

Your charge of VGR and, I suppose, everyone else you don’t like of being “pro-abortion” carries no water. The Episcopal Church’s stand on abortion is a very powerful statement—read it. It is not “pro-abortion.” I have not read or heard anyone in the church who is “pro-abortion.” Give it up.

Uh - Excuse me but didn’t anyone tell you that ECUSA is a full fledged, card toting, sign waiving, protest attending member of RCRC?  Have you actually read any of RCRC’s statements on abortion?  How about this one:

“You, and no one else, are ‘called’ to figure out what this unwanted pregnancy is about. And you are to do it without guilt or shame…”

or this

“...place both hands over your heart and imagine or remember a time when you were feeling full of love, relaxed, and happy. Notice how your body responds. Where in your body do you experience sensations of warmth, relaxation, softening, and expansiveness? This is where your Truth resides. Listen to this place as you seek to discover what is right…”

and the Episcopal Church’s position:
Women’s Ministries characterizes our membership [in RCRC] this way:

“While our members are religiously and theologically diverse, they are unified in the commitment to preserve reproductive choice as a basic part of religious liberty.”

and then there is George Vanderstar, a member of the Executive Council, who claimed that the church’s position on abortion is,

“Unequivocal opposition to any federal or state legislation that would interfere with a woman’s right to make a decision on terminating a pregnancy.”

Some of the text of this comment was taken from articles written by others.  If you missed Jill Woodliff’s and Rich Harris’ excellent articles on this travesty you can still read them at:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/where_truth_resides/
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/where_truth_resides_part_2/
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/to_come_unto_me/
After you read them and fully digest the full impact of ECUSA’s worldly position, be sure to pass them on to your friends who may still be “on the fence.”

And Mr. Woodward, if you can read these statements and still claim that the Episcopal Church’s position is a Godly one - well that tells me more than even your harsh words have told.

And I renew my question - if we are so diverse - why no membership in Right to Life and Exodus?

[62] Posted by Jackie on 08-29-2006 at 02:52 PM • top

“Your charge of VGR and, I suppose, everyone else you don’t like of being ‘pro-abortion’ carries no water. The Episcopal Church’s stand on abortion
is a very powerful statement—read it. It is not ‘pro-abortion.’  I have not read or heard anyone in the church who is ‘pro-abortion.’ Give it up.”
—Woodward+

I, too, believe in well-supported and civil discussion.  Fr. Woodward, we are really a very broad-based and well-educated group here. We may not all invariably agree with each other, but we usually do have support behind our postings. I want to clarify that I was not making an idle or a simply generalized comment about +Robinson as a “pro-abortion activist”; I meant this not as an epithet but as a precise term.  I was not referring, either, to the Episcopal Church’s 1994 limited statement about abortion (71st General Convention). I think it can be shown that this limited statement, itself, was achieved “behind the backs” of a vast number of church members; I have found that few of those I know are even aware of it today.  This may show (certainly) that the parishioners should be more concerned about GC and its teachings—yes, they should be—but it also shows, I believe, that the church has engaged in strategic silence.  I have already discussed the way that the RCRC matter was handled behind the scenes, not only in this recent GC (when the issue came to light, to a certain extent) but in previous ones (when we did not even know about the actions of Executive Council on it).

But none of that was my subject.  I meant that +Robinson (and he is not alone these days) pushes beyond what the church has openly declared, and he has implied that the church goes farther even than it has; he is seeking to create a new understanding of the church’s role in all this.  When he addressed the 2005 Planned Parenthood annual breakfast, he said that PP should “promote abortion rights” in opposition to the traditional religious objections:  “Our defense against religious people has to be a religious defense. ... We must use people of faith to counter the faith-based arguments against us.” (This appears in the press in a number of venues, including the Washington Post, so I believe that it was really said.)  Further, I would like to quote from +Robinson’s interview of June 2006.

Asked how the Episcopal Church stands on abortion, he said, “we absolutely stand behind a woman’s right to choose” and “the church has steadfastly resisted efforts to retract in any way our support for a woman’s choice.”  (Do read the GC statement and compare.)  Now I give part of this exchange below, showing how far he has pushed the envelope.  First he says that he believes in “the Episcopal Church’s teachings.”

DAVID HARTLINE (INTERVIEWER): “When is viability? I just put a story on my website about a baby who survived an abortion years ago and she just sang in the Colorado General Assembly. What if a woman came to you and said she’s getting an abortion in her second or third trimester?”

BISHOP ROBINSON: Well it’s her right to choose so though I would be personally against it, that’s her decision. The young woman you mentioned well that’s why I believe in getting abortions as early as possible.

Again, I believe this is accurately reported; it was an open interview, with several well-known participants, in The Catholic Report. http://www.catholicreport.org/?id=193

[63] Posted by Paula on 08-29-2006 at 03:55 PM • top

Right on, Jackie: all this that you report is part of the same story!

[64] Posted by Paula on 08-29-2006 at 04:23 PM • top

Paula - It is amazing the people that have no clue about what GC has gotten us into.  I was talking about the RCRC after services the other day and one of our oldest parishioners said - that’s not true.  We would never stand for that.  I printed the article and brought it to her.  She was outraged -as anyone would be.  I think it should be mandatory reading for every person in every pew.  We need to stop allowing GC to make “unconscious” decisions for us.

[65] Posted by Jackie on 08-29-2006 at 06:02 PM • top

Wm. Witt, I believe Gagnon’s work is very badly flawed. He is simply wrong on this.

Snark, You ask what planet I am on - with all due respect, if I answer in my planet earth language, I am not sure you will understand. Let me respond, as you say “with all due respect”—xyrex ddle arrx kdst.

W.G., Thank you for understanding the sub-text of much of the interchanges here. We all do have much to contribute to one another—when we try to respond to the best in one another instead of with “Gotcha” we come closer to the mind of Christ (I know, I moved further away in responding to Snark in kind).

Phil, you wrote: “So what” that Tom’s comments were overboard?  “So what” that he says we all want blacks segregated in their own churches and want women to be treated as property?  Those comments go beyond overboard.  They are vicious slanders that ought not to be taken as serious debating points, or evidence of good faith.”

I said nothing of the kind—I said that is the logical extension of your arguments rejecting any new understanding of faith and morals. If I said that I would send you an apology by FedX. I said we corrected those things over the past 50 or 60 years, in ways similar to the way TEC decided to become more inclusive in its ordained ministry.

Tami, there was no vote to change Scripture. There were votes taken which reflect conflicts in Scripture and different understandings of Scripture. That happens from time to time on a lot of issues.

Phil, I think the matter of stealing is much deeper and much more significant than you cite—my own life has been formed from the 10 Commandments, the words of the Prophets (here, especially by Amos) and the words of Jesus. There are so many levels in my understanding the evil in stealing and in the forms stealing takes. Great question—it would take a book.

WG writes: What I hope Tom will realize is that interpretation of Scripture is a spectrum, not simply an “EITHER/OR” absolute literalist/nebulous pick n choose affair.”  Thank you!  That is precisely what I and the Episcopal Majority are arguing for. Well said—and may we all draw inspiration from it.

Jackie, you write: “Excuse me but didn’t anyone tell you that ECUSA is a full fledged, card toting, sign waiving, protest attending member of RCRC?” If you look at the resolution that was passed by Executive Council (not GC), you will see that this is an enormous overstatement. Secondly, as you know, TEC contains many loyal Episcopalians who are just as committed to a pro-life agenda as you are—and some who are not. There really are faithful people across the spectrum there. The same is true with Pacifists and with Advocates against the Death Penalty (both life issues); however, we don’t label as heretics those who are for the death penalty or who bear arms for their country, despite the clear position of Jesus.

BTW While you and others and I have written some stupid things on this string, I have never assumed any of us is stupid or unthinking.
Tom Woodward

[66] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 06:47 PM • top

Tom,
You avoided the issue again.  GC06 refused to act on removing us from RCRC.  Ergo - they confirmed it. 
I can give you link after link after link where ECUSA has taken a front seat in pro-abortion.
And you still have not answered the questions - if ECUSA is so diverse - why are we not members of Right to Life and supporting Exodus the way we support Integrity?

[67] Posted by Jackie on 08-29-2006 at 07:07 PM • top

And I forgot to ask - Could you please provide specifics on how you find Gagnon’s work to be flawed?

[68] Posted by Jackie on 08-29-2006 at 07:15 PM • top

TEC contains many loyal Episcopalians who are just as committed to a pro-life agenda as you are—and some who are not.

Fr. Tom, I do not see “The Episcopal Church” listed as official members of NOEL - why not?  If the Executive Council wanted to represent the diversity, then what is good for the goose, is good for the gander, so to speak.  I believe that you have been asked that several times, and have yet to respond. If the council is merely reflecting one of the views of the Church, then they should reflect all.

I said that is the logical extension of your arguments rejecting any new understanding of faith and morals

In a word, Balderdash.  I’m not sure where your logic comes from.  Because you reject this you reject all?  No, because I/we reject this we reject…this.

[69] Posted by GillianC on 08-29-2006 at 07:24 PM • top

Jackie—you can understand, I hope, why I am reluctant to continue to engage on this web site. Even so, in answer to your question: many members and whole parishes are members of Right to Life, NOEL and other organizations. Some are involved with Exodus. Still others are involved with Integrity. I do not believe Integrity has asked for the national church’s endorsement, nor will they. I believe we cover the whole spectrum. The EC vote on RCRC was an anomaly—and in view of the misunderstandings surrounding it, a regrettable one.

I don’t have the time on this site to respond regarding Gagnon’s work—and the flack would simply pile up with those disagreeing or taking things out of context. I would go first to Walter Wink’s side of their debate. I also trust the opinions of Bill Countryman, Gordon Gritter (who posts from time to time on the HoBD list) and James Nelson. You can also read my sermon on my blog: http://www.turningthingsupsidedown.blogspot.com

P.S.  GC did not get to a whole lot of legislation this year, given the struggles over sexuality, etc.. This was a difficult year for a lot of important legislation.

Thank you for your kind and respectful tone,
Tom Woodward

[70] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 07:25 PM • top

Hello all,

I haven’t posted for a good long while, but I do read this blog several times a day unless we are away. Matt, Greg and Sarah, I thank you for your faithfulness and untiring encouragement to those of us near despair about the apostasy in our church. Dr. Witt, I continue to be awed by your writings. Like those of Fr. Al Kimel, they take me several read throughs to digest.  smile

I would like to direct all of the scholars among you to the thesis I reference below, and ask your comments since it is most certainly in line with the dialogue in this thread.

Perhaps some of you have read the whole paper - I include here only the outline and the first point. The research looks very impressive to me. Yes, I know it is from the Catholic Medical Ass’n. and of course it has to be in line with official teaching, BUT, I don’t see how one could refute the sources.

Since it first came to my attention a couple of years ago, I have shared it with orthodox believers and one Episcopal priest in particular wrote to thank me profusely, saying, “This is just what I have been looking for.”

HOMOSEXUALITY AND HOPE: A STATEMENT OF THE CATHOLIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

CONTENTS
I CONSIDERATIONS
  Introduction
  1) Not born that way
  2) Same sex attraction as a symptom
  3) Same-sex attraction is preventable
  4) At-risk, not predestined
  5) Therapy
  6) Goal of therapy

II RECOMMENDATIONS

  1) Ministry to individuals experiencing same-sex attraction
  2) The role of the priest
  3) Catholic medical professionals
  4) Teachers in Catholic institutions
  5) Catholic families
  6) The Catholic community
  7) Bishops
  8) Hope

1) NOT BORN THAT WAY

A number of researchers have sought to find a biological cause for same-sexual attraction. The media have promoted the idea that a “gay gene” has already been discovered (Burr 1996[3]), but in spite of several attempts, none of the much publicized studies (Hamer 1993[4]; LeVay 1991[5]) has been scientifically replicated. (Gadd 1998) A number of authors have carefully reviewed these studies and found that not only do the studies not prove a genetic basis for same-sex attraction; the reports do not even contain such claims. (Byne 1963[6]; Crewdson 1995[7]; Goldberg1992; Horgan 1995[8]; McGuire 1995[9]; Porter 1996; Rice 1999[10])

http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm

Sorry, I don’t know how to make a beautiful hyperlink.

Well, have I invited fireworks?

Your sister in the Lord, Merlena Cushing

[71] Posted by merlenacushing on 08-29-2006 at 07:57 PM • top

Tom,
A parish being a member is totally different than the entire church being a member.  For one thing, in a parish, EVERYONE gets a voice and vote.  Sorry time running out is not an excuse for what Executive Committee did.  If the diverse middle were truly interested in equality, they could bring before the EC a motion to revoke our membership or alternatively join NOEL or Right to Life. 
Integrity doesn’t need to be an official arm of ECUSA.  Go to the website and type in homosexual into the search engine and you will be overwhelmed with page after page. 
Sorry but your comparisons fall far short of the mark here.
Before you rely too heavily on Winks, you might want to read Gagnon’s very detailed and heavily researched papers on him.  If you have not read them, I can provide you the links. Do you dispute Gagnon’s historical research?  I found it very detailed.  Is it his study of the Bible that God’s plan does not include like partnering with like?

[72] Posted by Jackie on 08-29-2006 at 08:23 PM • top

Jackie,
You get a gold star for trying, but he is not going to answer you.  Because he can’t.  And he and everyone else knows it.

[73] Posted by CarolynP on 08-29-2006 at 10:21 PM • top

CarolynP - The only reason for not getting an answer would be that they are not truly the diverse center because they believe affiliation with those groups would be contrary to ECUSA’s purpose.  How very, very sad.

[74] Posted by Jackie on 08-29-2006 at 10:24 PM • top

Jackie, as before, I don’t believe Gagnon’s research or his analytical abilities are up to the people on the long list I provided. I know Walter Wink personally and I have known him for a long time. He is a person of great scholarship and great integrity.

As to the RCRC matter. I believe the Executive Council made a mistake in the affiliation. I was not party to what happened or didn’t happen at GC regarding RCRC, but Kendall and others will tell you, I’m sure, that a lot of very worthwhile things did not get dealt with at GC because of the gravity of some issues and the time it took to deal with them. Ask any Deputy—and it is not true that by failing to get something out of committee means that GC affirmed it. I’m aware that this is the key issue for you—for a priest friend of mine who has given his life over to Palestinian issues, the failure of his stuff to get out of the committee he serves on!! was crushing to him, but he would never assert that a conspiracy was the cause.
If you want to continue this, post your comment somewhere on my site:
http://www.turningthingsupsidedown.blogspot.com

BTW, the “Catholic Medical Society” is hardly an unbiased institution. I do not mean to be disrepectful but you will not find a national or independent group of psychiatrists or psychologists that give any credence to the society. Modern science is not with you on this one.
Tom Woodward

[75] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 10:47 PM • top

I didn’t post the CMS information.

RCRC affiliation is unfortunately only one of the key issues for me.

[76] Posted by Jackie on 08-29-2006 at 10:53 PM • top

Re: “. . . but you will not find a national or independent group of psychiatrists or psychologists that give any credence to the society.”

Oh dear, wrong again.

Surely TBWSF means “but you will not find a national or independent group of [psychiatrists who agree that same sex attraction is a good thing] that give any credence to the society.”
; > )

He must mean that because . . . the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, a national and independent group of psychiatrists and psychologists, respect the CMA just fine, as indicated by this [among many] link right here: http://www.narth.com/docs/hope.html

Narth is an excellent organization made up of licensed therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, and researchers who “defend the right to pursue change of sexual orientation”.  Members of Narth include both Christians [Catholic, & Protestant], and those from the Jewish, Mormon, Bah’ai, and Muslim faiths, as well as secular humanists and atheists.  In other words, Narth is not a Christian organization. 

A little more about them from their web site: “Most NARTH members consider homosexuality to represent a developmental disorder. Some of our clinician-members, however, do not consider the condition disordered, but simply defend the right to treatment for those who desire it. They have joined NARTH because they know that the client’s right to choose his own direction of treatment must be protected.”

Naturally, TBWSF will not be interested in Narth.  But every Christian and StandFirmer who is interested in sexuality issues—particularly the psychological aspects—should be aware of this fine organization and familiar with their website.

Read more about Narth here:
http://www.narth.com/menus/goals.html

For links to interesting research on the subject of homosexuality, click here:
http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html

And here:
http://www.narth.com/menus/cstudies.html

Good job, Merlena Cushing, but reminding us of the CMA—a fine group of phsyicians, including psychiatrists, dentists, and nurses.

[77] Posted by Sarah on 08-30-2006 at 03:47 AM • top

May God rescue our children from Exodus and Narth. Their work has been exposed as ineffective and their brainwashing (as therapy it has proved a sham). Check out the leadership of Exodus—they have had to hire straight people as executives as nearly every officer who had been “cured” by Exodus had returned to living out their homosexual orientation.

CMA, NARTH and EXODUS may be the darlings of Stand Firm folks, but mainline psychiatrists and psychiatric groups find that they do much more harm than good and that their “research” is highly biased and has been discredited time after time.

We protest against our enemies when they brainwash our soldiers in captivity, yet some applaud the ineffective brainwashing of Exodus, Inc.. I have had direct experience with many of those who have gone through the Exodus program—and they are almost like zombies. I know you won’t take my word for it, but if you ever think about referring someone there, consider yourselves forewarned—the last state of your friend will be much worse than the first.
Tom Woodward

[78] Posted by TBWSF on 08-30-2006 at 07:24 AM • top

....of course Tom+, many say the same of Alcoholics Anonymous (in terms of brainwashing)...but literally millions have recovered from alcoholism and restored to their former lives.

[79] Posted by JonG on 08-30-2006 at 07:41 AM • top

Re: “CMA, NARTH and EXODUS may be the darlings of Stand Firm folks, but mainline psychiatrists and psychiatric groups find that they do much more harm than good and that their “research” is highly biased and has been discredited time after time.”

Heh.

I knew that would cause TBWSF’s head to spin round and the whites of his eyes to show.  But what ever happened to “you will not find a national or independent group of psychiatrists or psychologists that give any credence to the society”?  ; > )

Since he mentioned Exodus, an explicitly Christian group, unlike Narth, check them out too:
http://www.exodus-international.org

There are other Christian resources as well:
For resources for working with youth in the sexuality arena:
http://www.freetobeme.com

A healing ministry for the sexually and relationally broken
http://www.desertstream.org

And another one as well:
http://www.peoplecanchange.com

For Episcopalians, check out Mario Bergner’s ministry—he’s an Episcopal priest and ex-gay [you know, the kind of people who are either brainswashed or don’t exist, according to TBWSF].  Find his work here:
Redeemed Lives
http://www.redeemedlives.org/Conferences/CONF.htm
http://www.redeemedlives.org/Resources/RSRCES.htm

Mario is an excellent speaker.  I think it’s a very good idea for Episcopal groups to invite him to speak at gatherings, etc.  StandFirm, if they do another Mississippi conference, can hardly do better than this guy.

So glad that TBWSF said this: “you will not find a national or independent group of psychiatrists or psychologists that give any credence to the society”.

It has spawned a fruitful opportunity for StandFirmer’s to learn about Narth and other great organizations.

; > )

[80] Posted by Sarah on 08-30-2006 at 08:00 AM • top

Hey Sarah,

What did you think of Tom’s attempt to explain why we roisterers are troubled by Spong?  Again, focus on what he said, not what he didn’t say.

[81] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-30-2006 at 08:08 AM • top

Hi WG,

Like William Witt said much better, I’m not interested in trying to change TBWSF’s mind, either about us [I am Deeply Unconcerned about his opinions about StandFirm] or about the gospel. 

As he has strikingly displayed in these three threads [which will thankfully be archived nearly forever], we don’t really have a similar enough religion.  Further . . . the dialogue ceased in the Episcopal church in 2003, when after 35 years to make their case, the church’s leaders made their decision.

Since then, there is only conflict and challenge, and I’m fine with that.  It’s good to have clarity and decisions so that now, the sides are distinct and the different visions for the gospel and church are revealed for all to see.

However, I understand if you wish to attempt dialogue with TBWSF.

As for me, I accept TBWSF for who he is.  ; > )

[82] Posted by Sarah on 08-30-2006 at 08:20 AM • top

Sarah: There was a really good post on CT6 about a month ago on how homosexuality came to be removed from the APA list of psychiatric disorders. It had very little to do with medical fact but was, in fact, due to a massive lobbying and arm twisting campaign by the homosexuals. If you can find it, it is well worth reading.

the snarkster

[83] Posted by the snarkster on 08-30-2006 at 08:42 AM • top

Let’s listen to Winks, Rev Woodward’s good bud and favorite “moderate” source on issues homosexual: “The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is simply that the Bible has no sexual ethic… the Bible knows only a love ethic.”  This radical departure from the teaching of the Christian Church for 2000 years is a novelty.  For some it is the new orthodoxy and traditional Anglicanism.  For others it is heresy.

[84] Posted by Nevin on 08-30-2006 at 08:42 AM • top

If anyone is interested in the article I referenced above, go to the CT6 website and type American Psychiatric Association in the search box. It will take you right to the article. It was originally posted on August 9. For anyone who knows how to do it, maybe you could post a link to it on this site.

the snarkster

[85] Posted by the snarkster on 08-30-2006 at 08:52 AM • top

I would love to know the, “worthwhile things,” all this focus on sexuality kept GC from considering.  Rev. Woodward gave us a hint when he referenced, “Palestinian issues.”  Maybe others included five resolutions calling for President Bush’s impeachment.

No loss, I’m sure, since the vast majority of the world’s population, including most Episcopalians, couldn’t care less what ECUSA has to say, which is the result of being a dying institution.

[86] Posted by Phil on 08-30-2006 at 09:07 AM • top

Gagnon does not need me to defend his works.  He has the majority of theological scholars out there to do that.  As for Winks - well, let’s just say I am NOT a theological scholar and even I can see that he does a lot of what Greg calls “Bending the Map.”  You seem to give him extra credit because he is a good friend.  I have no doubt he is a wonderful person - it’s just his theology that I find offbase.  You appear to have done the same thing to David Hicks - decyring him to be slime based solely on the word of someone who was not even present when the incident in question occurred.  I find that harsh, unfair and judgemental.  But that is just me.

I am not surprised you denounce Exodus.  One could have hoped you would have at least given credit to the wonderful men and women who work in this wonderful organization or at least a nod to those who have worked so hard at repenting from their addiction to homosexuality.  Of course, just as in AA, it only works when the individual in question first admits to the problem—and they return to a loving and supportive community who will help them on the road of repentence (a tough walk with all sins as I well know) and not ridicule them out of fear.  Be honest, if you met someone who had been through Exodus and relapsed, would you counsel him that it happens through our human weakness and to seek repentence and get back on the road to recovery or would you say - Well, even brainwashing wears off.

[87] Posted by Jackie on 08-30-2006 at 09:14 AM • top

I’ll offer my opinion of Rev. Woodward’s explanation of why conservatives are troubled by Spong.

To set the stage, the reason I am troubled by Spong is that he denigrates and attempts to discredit the Faith from a position inside the church.  What’s more, as a so-called bishop, he is abusing a position which the Fathers called one of unity and considered to be the primary defender and teacher of the Apostolic Deposit.  That’s it.  If he were to formally renounce the Faith and go about his business, I would be much less concerned.  Of course, I’m annoyed by anybody who makes it their life’s work to tear down Christianity, but Jesus and the Apostles told us it would always be thus, so that’s that.

So, let’s turn to Rev. Woodward.  First of all, I dismiss his comments about Spong having a “sexy belief” and “delight[ing]” in skewering security-prizing conservatives out of hand as question-begging nonsense.  Also, I don’t know what he means by, “JS seems to isolate meaning completely from its source—that is incompatible with a theology of creation, an incarnational theology and a sacramental theology.”  Finally, it isn’t that Spong invites individualism that troubles me (or, more accurately, bothers me specifically as it relates to Spong), since that same charge could be leveled at much of Protestantism.

That leaves us with Rev. Woodward’s assertions that we do not like Spong because he, “does not seem to care about any boundaries, theological or any other,” “is not collegial,” and because his, “writings and speeches do not honor the heart of the matter, our existence as the Body of Christ on earth.”  If I could preface all of those by, “In his capacity as a bishop, Spong . . .” then I would agree with Rev. Woodward on those points.

[88] Posted by Phil on 08-30-2006 at 09:30 AM • top

Fr. Tom recognizes the holiness of VGR:

How do I know he has been welcomed—look at the presence of the Holy Spirit throughout his ordained ministry. The Pauline marks of the Spirit have marked his ministry from the beginning. Before he was finally elected bishop (he had been nominated in several dioceses previously) he was pretty universally praised for his ministry, both as parish priest and administrator, as working in dioceses, for the national church, and as key mediator in international disputes.

David Hicks has doubts:

Gene Robinson [spoke] ... at a Vespers service at St. Paul’s School in the fall of 1992. His topic appeared to be God’s gift of love, a phrase he often repeated in his talk, but his point conflated love with sex, and he urged the girls and boys of St. Paul’s to share their sexual gifts “either with someone of the same sex or someone of the opposite sex.” He said this more than once, and I jotted the phrase down in the book of prayers at my desk. No mention of marriage or even of commitment. He did close his talk, however, with a disarming suggestion that God would be well pleased if His gifts were shared safely. “Please use a condom.”

... as does Dr. Radner+:

While few doubt the literal deniability of Robinson’s involvement in the web-site of OutRight, you all seem to have missed the main point, one that is crystal clear to many young people and their parents: that is, that sexual “confusion” is not something to be dealt with in a manner of encouragement and experimentation, something that OutRight’s philosophy, shared by Robinson and apparently affirmed by the House of Bishops, promotes. These are deeply dangerous waters, poorly understood, and the advocacy of the adult “mentoring” pursued by this so-called “ministry” is something that few responsible adults would advise as anything but harmful to young teenagers. That the whole Convention of the Episcopal Church should find this unproblematic as a paraded “qualification” for the episcopacy is astonishing and, for many, repugnant.

Perhaps it’s just as well that the average age in most of our congregations is approaching 60…

[89] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-30-2006 at 09:30 AM • top

“Wm. Witt, I believe Gagnon’s work is very badly flawed. He is simply wrong on this.”

Tom Woodward,

Would you regard the work of the following scholars as also “very badly flawed”?  Just curious.

[Note that the scholars cited below do not necessarily agree with the Bible’s teaching.  Some reject it, or suggest it be modified. Nor are they universally “conservative” in their theological stances.  They represent the contemporary consensus of scholarship (both liberal and conservative, from a variety of confessional traditions) about what the Bible actually teaches about same-sex sexual activity.] 

Roman Catholic

“I believe the general outlines of biblical teaching on sex are fairly clear . . . . [T]he general parameters of a “biblical” sexual morality are not in great dispute (setting gender aside for the moment).  Sex, in both the Hebrew and the early Christian scriptures, is assumed to belong in heterosexual marriage, which is faithful and procreative. . . . [T]here is scarcely any doubt that premarital sex, adultery, divorce, prostitution, and homosexuality are not included in the ideal.” Lisa Sowle Cahill, “Sexual Ethics: A Feminist Biblical Perspective,” Interpretation (Jan 95) 49(1): 6.


Jewish

“The Bible’s extreme aversion to homosexuality is part of [the] concern not to let sexual activity destroy the categories of orderly existence. . . . Homosexual activity, as known in the ancient world, exists outside the pair-bond structure, which is the social locus of permissible sexuality.  Furthermore, it blurs the distinction between male and female, and this cannot be tolerated in the biblical system.  Anything that smacks of homosexual blurring is similarly prohibited, such as cross-dressing. . . . Forbidden sexuality, like adultery, incest, homosexuality, and bestiality . . . becomes a national concern.  Such sexual behavior is a threat to social order, as is murder, and again, like murder, it is said to pollute the land and thereby endanger the very survival of Israel.  Leviticus 18 relates that the pre-Israel inhabitants of the land indulged in the incestuous relations listed there, in bestiality, homosexuality, and molech-worship, and that–as a result–the land became defiled and vomited out its inhabitants. . . . Israel’s right of occupation is contingent upon its care not to do these things, for murder, illicit sex and idolatry will pollute the land, and a polluted land will not sustain them.” Tikva Frymer-Kensky, In the Wake of the Goddesses: Women, Culture and the Biblical Transformation of Pagan Myth (Ballantine Books, 1992), 195-196.


Presbyterian

“The holiness of God’s people is integrally tied to the sanctity of the institution of marriage, which was assumed by the Old Testament to be both divinely ordained and normative. . . . Homosexuality was universally condemned and dismissed as abhorrent.” Brevard Childs, Old Testament Theology in a Canonical Context (Fortress, 1985), 79.


Methodist

“Paul was against homosexuality, both active and inactive, both male and female.  This marks him as Jewish. . . .  Jews, looking at the Gentile world, saw it as full of porneia, sexual sin of all sorts, and homosexuality was a prime case.  They condemned it, lock, stock, and barrel.  This is emphasized in the Bible . . . and repeated in subsequent Jewish literature. . . . So when we turn to Paul, we are not surprised that he condemns all homosexual activity, nor that he specifies both the active and the passive partners. . . . Some scholars propose that the words are uncertain as to meaning and thus that perhaps Paul did not really condemn homosexuality.  The words, however, are quite clear. . . . Paul condemns both male and female homosexuality in blanket terms and without making any distinction.”  E. B. Sanders, Paul (Oxford, 1991), 110, 112-113.

[90] Posted by William Witt on 08-30-2006 at 09:41 AM • top

(Continued)

“The few biblical texts that do address the topic of homosexual behavior . . . are unambiguously and unremittingly negative in their judgment . . . Paul’s use of the term [arsenokoitai] presupposes and reaffirms the holiness code’s condemnation of homosexual acts.  This is not a controversial point in Paul’s argument. . . . Paul simply assumes that his readers will share his conviction that those who indulge in homosexual activity are ‘wrongdoers’ . . . Paul’s choice of homosexuality as an illustration of human depravity is not merely random: it serves his rhetorical purposes by providing a vivid image of humanity’s primal rejection of the sovereignty of God the Creator. . . . Though only a few biblical texts speak of homoerotic activity, all that do mention it express unqualified disapproval.  Thus, on this issue, there is no synthetic problem for New Testament ethics.  In this respect, the issue of homosexuality differs significantly from such matters as slavery or the subordination of women, concerning which the Bible contains internal tensions and counterposed witnesses.  The biblical witness against homosexual practices is univocal.”  Richard Hays, The Moral Vision of the New Testament: A Contemporary Introduction to New Testament Ethics (HarperCollins, 1996), 381, 382-383, 385, 389.


Anglican

“For all the issues that divided the church in the past . . . tolerance or blessing of homosexual acts was never one of them. Apparently scripture’s plain sense was simply too plain when it came to homosexual behavior.  The history of interpretation, Jewish and Christian, bears witness to the ‘plainness’ of scripture on this matter.” Christopher Seitz, “Sexuality and Scripture’s Plain Sense,” Word Without End: The Old Testament as Abiding Theological Witness (Eerdmans, 1998), 324-325.

[91] Posted by William Witt on 08-30-2006 at 09:42 AM • top

If you get the facts about VGR’s involvement in Outright, you would approve, I’m sure. There was an early smear-job on him in 2003 with whoppers of lies around that and they were quickly corrected. You may not like him, approve of him, but it is important to have history right.

The same is true with the alleged incident at St. Paul’s. That has been debunked for a long time—I’m surprized it is still around. It has all the credibility that the staged landing on the moon has.

And, no, I think their scholarship is deeply flawed—see “Dirt, Sex and Greed.” I agree with Cahill’s piece, but her analysis does not provide much help in dealing with current knowledge and a changed context. It is foolish, in my understanding, to assume that Biblical writers were responding to long term, loyal and faithful and love-filled relationships. I join them in condemnation of manipulative, oppressive relationships, whether homosexual or heterosexual.

What do your people say about masturbation—for a long time it was on the evil list and still is for a couple of those sources you quote. Do you want people who masturbate (sex without a married partner) excluded from ordained ministry and from the church? How many “orthodox” bishops would that leave you?

[92] Posted by TBWSF on 08-30-2006 at 09:55 AM • top

Yes, Wm. Witt, all the authors you cite are flawed.  A theologian we can trust on this issue is William Countryman?????  Oh, yes, now there’s an objective theologian.  No self-justification in his theology.

[93] Posted by Tony on 08-30-2006 at 10:23 AM • top

Whether we want people who masturbate has nothing to do with traditional beliefs about homosexual behavior. Most traditional, orthodox, Christians of most denominations believe that the Bible, reason, and tradition have consistently held that homosexual behavior has been sinful for 2,000 years, is sinful today, and will be sinful for the next 2,000 years. Note that the behavior is sinful, not necessarily the person.

No arguments about Biblical interpretations around slavery, masturbation, shellfish, or any other topics will change the conclusion. Each of these other issues will stand or fall on its own merits.

We disagree on this. We will continue to disagree, and no amount of dialogue will change the fact that we have a fundamentally different understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

Our understanding is consistent with 75 million Anglicans in the rest of the world. Our task is to find a path that will allow those of us in the US who want nothing to do with the left wing, political organization that is ECUSA today, to remain Anglican, and to believe and worship as we have for roughly 200 years, and to be in communion with the rest of the Anglican world.

We are not leaving you, you have left us. Hopefully, a way can be found that allows parishes and diocese who are traditionally Anglican to remain faithful to their tradition and beliefs with having their property, paid for by current and preceding generations of faithful Episcopalians, taken away from them. This is not an unreasonable position.

[94] Posted by BillS on 08-30-2006 at 10:34 AM • top

“A theologian we can trust on this issue is William Countryman?????”

Yes, indeed, Tony. I’m flabbergasted by this recommendation.  I deliberately posted a consensus (and it is a consensus!) of contemporary critical biblical scholarship, both conservative and liberal.  Over against the entire tradition of the Church, and the dominant consensus of contemporary biblical scholarship, Fr. Woodward recommends the one of two eccentric partisan scholars whose conclusions have been soundly refuted and roundly rejected as being badly mistaken. (The other would be Boswell.) No one takes Countryman or Boswell seriously any more, well, obviously almost no one.

But, of course, Fr. Woodward, reminds us, he’s just a “classical Anglican.”

[95] Posted by William Witt on 08-30-2006 at 10:41 AM • top

Fr. Tom: What do your people say about masturbation—for a long time it was on the evil list and still is for a couple of those sources you quote. Do you want people who masturbate (sex without a married partner) excluded from ordained ministry and from the church?

Anyone who defines himself by sex - whether it’s homosexuality, heterosexuality or masturbation - anyone who puts sex at the forefront of their being wouldn’t seem like a likely candidate for ordination to me.

[96] Posted by oscewicee on 08-30-2006 at 10:51 AM • top

This thread demonstrates that neither side will persuade the other concerning the merits of his/her respective position. The reappraiser/ reasserter sides have made up their minds. Further discussion will not result in any breakthroughs in understanding. As Bp. Duncan says, there are two religions in one institution.

[97] Posted by Publius on 08-30-2006 at 10:58 AM • top

What is it with Fr. Tom and masturbation?

In this sermon: http://turningthingsupsidedown.blogspot.com/2006/03/mystery-of-sex_18.html

he states:

...I wish we had better ways to reassure people that masturbation is not sinful. It can be misused, but on the whole it can be a matter of self-affirmation and self-care. When I try to tote up the amount of guilt, shame, and furtiveness that surrounds the whole matter of masturbation, I am appalled. Masturbation is nothing to feel guilty about, ashamed about. . .it’s part of our sexuality.

I think Fr. Tom wants to be the “Gene Robinson for Masturbators”.

Just what we want to hear on Sunday morning, too.  Ironically, a retired priest talking about the virtue of masturbation is enough to get any teenager to stop doing it and find different hobbies.

And are we really living in a world overwhelmed by guilt over any sexual behavior?  Seriously, what world is this?  I would like to visit it.

DoW

[98] Posted by DietofWorms on 08-30-2006 at 11:06 AM • top

Fr. Tom:

If you get the facts about VGR’s involvement in Outright, you would approve, I’m sure…

... the alleged incident at St. Paul’s ... has been debunked for a long time—I’m surprized it is still around.

References? Links?

[99] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-30-2006 at 11:11 AM • top

Wow, keeping up with a conversation over two threads is certainly challenging.

Phil,

Liked what you said about Tom on Spong.  Especially helpful was your addition of “in his capacity as bishop.”  I think if Tom will connect that comment back to my comment about where does following Spong leave us vis-a-vis Jesus’ life and work, he’ll have an even better grasp of why we’re always, “Spong this, Spong that.”

To those engaged in the “My scholar can beat up your scholar” discussion,

Not sure how your vigorous debate helps or ties in with this particular thread, which was about how the moderate/liberal wing views our concerns with TEC’s direction and leadership.  Shouldn’t we be asking whether the particular scholar cited is consistent with Anglican belief/doctrine (which ties in with where do we go for Anglican belief/doctrine, which ties in with Windsor’s idea of a covenant, which ties back to whether Tom’s group supports the covenant idea and the other parts of Windsor).

[100] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-30-2006 at 11:26 AM • top

A quick expansion on why I dismiss two of Tom Woodward’s Spong comments above.  I reject the notion I perceive the libs as having that traditionalist Christians are somehow fearful of ideas that stray outside their frameworks.  I do think there have to be some boundaries, and I gave my personal set, which I would describe as simply a literal understanding of what we affirm in the Creeds, somewhere on these threads.  However, that still leaves huge open spaces in which I think Christians can argue.  Read William Witt here or anywhere if you think traditionalists are incapable of dealing with ideas contrary to their own.  Also, the T19 comment record - 400+ comments - belongs to a recent discussion on justification.  That’s a lot of back-and-forth for so many close-minded people.

[101] Posted by Phil on 08-30-2006 at 12:27 PM • top

Phil, the “fearful of ideas” bit is a standard revisionist ad-hominem comeback in order to change the subject; it’s one that they keep handy near the top of the stack of rhetorical darts.

It’s vague and meaningless but offensive, and moreover its condescension strokes their sense of moral and intellectual superiority, so of course they use it all the time.  Ignore it; it’s not a “notion”, it’s a noise.

Fr. Tom—further to the incident at St. Paul’s, apparently some of the students took <a href=“http://listserv.episcopalian.org/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0409D&L=virtuosity&P=R383&I=-3”>+Gene’s advice to heart…

[102] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-30-2006 at 01:13 PM • top

Mr. Woodward, 
You make the assertion that reasserters, who believe in the Authority of Scripture, need to refrain from going to football games because the football players touch a pigskin and somewhere in the Bible there is a prohibition against touching a pigskin.  When you make such a statement, you falsely accuse people who depend on the Bible for guidance of being inconsistent in their interpretation of the Bible and I am sure some scholar could give a long dissertation explaining why this is not inconsistent - but - when you suggest that Church Leaders alignment with the RCRC (Abortion rights) organization in our name (and without our consent) is “not as controversial” as we might think, it exemplifies your distain for moderates and reasserters alike.  Is the lack of concern you attribute to moderates really consistent with the opinion of most moderate people in the Church?

[103] Posted by Betty See on 08-30-2006 at 01:43 PM • top

Tom, I second the request to provide proof that David Hicks’ claim has been “debunked.”  You will find we at Stand Firm do not base our decisions on quick retorts.  We want facts.  So would you kindly either provide the proof or retract your statements along with issuing an apology to David Hicks.  It is the Christian think to do.

[104] Posted by Jackie on 08-30-2006 at 01:50 PM • top

“To those engaged in the “My scholar can beat up your scholar” discussion . . .”

WG, the point was not that my scholars (plural) can beat up Tom Woodward’s one scholar.  It is indeed about what it means to be a classical Anglican, which is the point of discussion.

Classical Anglicanism (as represented by Cranmer, Jewel, and Hooker) affirmed not only the primacy, sufficiency, and clarity of Scripture, but consistency with the catholic tradition of the Church in doing so.  In fact, the complaint against Rome (a clever move) was that Rome had departed not only from the plain teaching of Scripture, but from the universal early tradition of the Church.  Transubstantiation, for instance, the Reformers claimed, was a Medieval innovation,  not the doctrine of the early catholic church.  And, of course, as I pointed out, Hooker’s and the 39 Articles’ distinction between moral, ceremonial, and civil law, is an interpretative principle that can only be called catholic.  It is the way that the entire church has dealt with the question of the authority of the OT.

In contrast to this biblically-centered catholic understanding of church identity stands that of gnostic and sectarian cults, as, e.g., the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons, the Christian Scientists, or the Seventh Day Adventists.  All of these groups insist that the historic church—Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Anglican—got it wrong when interpreting the Bible.  And that the true reading is supplied by a small in-group of interpreters (or an interpreter) who alone know what the Bible really means—Charles Russell and the Watchtower, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen White.

Tom Woodward may appeal to Countryman’s esoteric reading of Scripture over against the entire catholic tradition, and against the vast consensus of contemporary critical scholarship.  But insofar as he does so, he considerably weakens his claim that he is just a “classical Anglican.”

[105] Posted by William Witt on 08-30-2006 at 03:23 PM • top

Oh my.

It hasn’t been easy, as others have said, to follow these threads.

While reading the various comments, particularly those of Mr. Woodward, several images have come to my mind.  Sometimes it’s the image of the “wizard” behind the curtain and Sarah as Toto.  Sometimes it’s the image of the bishop in “The Great Divorce”.

But for quite some time now, the image that keeps coming back to me is that of the wonderful MGM cartoon, “The Dot and the Line”.  Mr. Woodward is the squiggle and Matt, Sarah and William Witt represents the line.  I’m just tryign to figure out who the dot would be.

To those like Jackie, Phil and the others, just because I didn’t include you doesn’t mean I haven’t enjoyed your many contributions. 

As an 8 and a Texan, there are many other choice words I like to say…..oh, well…..you know WG sometimes I haven’t wanted to say “Would someone just please shot the guy in the middle?”

[106] Posted by Gayle on 08-30-2006 at 03:27 PM • top

Gayle:

What’s an 8?  As a Texan, I’m clueless (and not just about the 8 thing) ... wink

[107] Posted by Wilkie on 08-30-2006 at 03:41 PM • top

It’s a point on the Enneagram. 

Yes, students I have studied the Enneagram and find it to be useful.  I understand it can be controversial and like all tools it needs to be viewed as a tool.

That being said, it’s a type of personality inventory, along the view of the Myers-Briggs personality inventory.  It bothers some people because there is a connection to Sufi mysticism to the Ennegram.  I first encounter it in spiritual direction.

An 8 is called the warrior, the fighter, the boss.  It fits doesn’t it, particularly when, Wilkie, I know you know who I am.

[108] Posted by Gayle on 08-30-2006 at 03:52 PM • top

Thanks - I think ...

[109] Posted by Wilkie on 08-30-2006 at 03:54 PM • top

DoW: VGR has been quoted as saying “I don’t want to be ‘the gay bishop’...”, but that seems to be the only note he plays lately.  I reckon that TBW doesn’t want to the the “masturbation priest”... excaim

[110] Posted by El Jefe on 08-30-2006 at 05:14 PM • top

I wish we had better ways to reassure people that masturbation is not sinful. It can be misused, but on the whole it can be a matter of self-affirmation and self-care. When I try to tote up the amount of guilt, shame, and furtiveness that surrounds the whole matter of masturbation, I am appalled. Masturbation is nothing to feel guilty about, ashamed about. . .it’s part of our sexuality.

Nice to know that Fr. Tom has repealed the sins of Lust and Fornication too.  I mean, unless I’m thinking about my lawfully wedded wife, it’s kind of hard to masturbate without committing those sins, isn’t it?

What a wanker…

[111] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 08-30-2006 at 07:01 PM • top

... current knowledge and a changed context. It is foolish, in my understanding, to assume that Biblical writers were responding to long term, loyal and faithful and love-filled relationships. I join them in condemnation of manipulative, oppressive relationships, whether homosexual or heterosexual.

Given that all of the scientific studies purporting to show genetic bases for homosexual attraction have been shown to be non-repeatable and tendentious, and given that even if a genetic basis were proven, it would be irrelevant to a judgment of whether the behavior was sinful or not (alcoholism? Kleptomania? Inclination to violence?), and given that Walter Wink himself has admitted that “Paul wouldn’t accept that [committed homosexual] relationship for a minute” (CHRISTIAN CENTURY June 5-12, 2002), why is this relevant?  What about long term, loyal and faithful and love-filled incestuous relationships?

What, in short, is the distinctively Christian basis for any of these beliefs you outline here, as opposed to secular niceness and pastoral compassion?

[112] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-30-2006 at 07:56 PM • top

If I may try the shoe on the other foot for just a moment:

... current knowledge and a changed context. It is foolish, in my understanding, to assume that Biblical writers were responding only to manipulative, oppressive, homosexual relationships.

Biblical writers made no distinction between committed long-term homosexual relationships, and manipulative oppressive long term relationships.  The context of the sinful act didn not affect it’s sinfulness one way or the other.

It is foolish, in my understanding, to suggest that biblical writers didn’t know what they were doing when they rejected “context” and focused on the nature of the act itself.

[113] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 08-30-2006 at 08:10 PM • top

Sorry, i should have said “short-term” in the paragraph above.

The point is, you are assuming a particular context for biblical writers, and you are assuming they would have written differently, given another context.

Methinks you are assuming an awful lot based on what was not written, in your attempt to ignore what was written.

[114] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 08-30-2006 at 08:19 PM • top

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