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Matt Kennedy
Has the Episcopal Church really been “Falsely Accused”? Part II
Monday, August 28, 2006 • 8:43 am
...the elevation of a divorced man living in a sexual relationship with another man, represented a clear, deliberate, officially sanctioned change in the doctrine of the Episcopal Church. What scripture, tradition, communion, and reason forbid, we chose to bless. And on that day the Episcopal Church stepped outside the limits and boundaries of orthodoxy.

This morning’s article is the second installment in a series of articles responding to Fr. Tom Woodward’s article Falsely Accused.

In the introductory installment I provided a rough summary of Fr. Woodward’s assertion: that the AAC, Network, and Church of Nigeria (why just those three I wonder?) have falsely accused the Episcopal Church of heresy and apostasy by (mis)representing the marginal teachings of marginal teachers, Dr. Marcus Borg and John Spong, as though they were the mainstream teachings of official voices.

Both teachers, as most readers know, deny essential doctrines: the virgin birth, bodily resurrection, and the bodily ascension.

If indeed the Episcopal Church were the healthy, well-balanced, orthodox Church Fr. Woodward claims, you would expect to see widespread opposition to Spong and Dr. Borg originating not just from the traditionalist wing, but from the “diverse center” as well. You would expect Spong to be brought up on presentment charges and men like Borg to be ostracized by the ecclesial leadership.

Instead these men are lauded and celebrated. They are frequently invited to dioceses across the Episcopal Church to lecture, teach, and preach at the invitation and with the blessing of the diocesan bishop.

For example, here’s an article describing Spong's visit to Presiding Bishop-Elect Jefferts-Schori’s Diocese of Nevada where, apparently, he not only spoke to the clergy but was given pulpit access to the flock of at least one parish.

Spong Addresses 2003 Clergy Conference in Nevada

John Shelby Spong will speak at 7 p.m. Wednesday at Christ Church Episcopal, 2000 S. Maryland Parkway. The lecture, which is open to the public, is titled ‘God Beyond Theism.’ Spong also will speak Sept. 6 at Trinity Episcopal Church in Reno. His Reno lecture is titled ‘Jesus Beyond Incarnation.’ Spong also will address the clergy of the Diocese of Nevada at a retreat in Lake Tahoe. ‘Bishop Spong continues to be one of the important voices for an intellectually involved Christian theology,’ said the Right Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori, bishop of the Diocese of Nevada. ‘You may not agree with everything he says, but you will not come away from a meeting with him without having examined what you do believe and why.


Lest you think the reporter somehow misunderstood or misstated the capacity or purpose of Spong’s visit or imagine that perhaps these things took place under +Jefferts-Schori’s radar or without her full knowledge, here’s the blurb from her diocesan newsletter:

TO ALL CLERGY: SAVE THE DATES.
Clergy Conference 2003 will take place September 4 to September 6, 2003 at Almost Home Group Retreats, South Lake Tahoe, CA. Our facilitator is the Rt. Rev. John Shelby Spong, former Episcopal Bishop of Newark, NJ, renowned writer and lecturer. He is one of the leading spokespersons in the world for progressive Christianity. He is author of 15 books including the best-selling Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism. A Profile of a Bishop: John Shelby Spong can be found on www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/profile.html. Coordinators in the North are needed to provide transportation for those arriving at the Reno airport to the center. Volunteers, please call the diocesan office 702-737-9190. A registration form will be in the mail shortly.


So only three years ago this marginal and unrepresentative teacher, this odd-man-out, was leading clergy days in the Presiding bishop-elect’s diocese and lecturing her flock.

And this is no anomaly. Spong and Dr. Borg are frequent welcomed guests in Episcopal diocese across the country.

At the same time, all of this is somewhat beside the point. I could link to diocesan newsletter after diocesan newsletter describing these men and their teachings in glowing terms and, while enlightening, it would do little to further the argument.

The problem, as I realized last night, is that Fr. Woodward and his fellow travelers at Episcopal Majority have a novel and rather odd understanding of what exactly constitutes “orthodoxy”. His claim that TEC currently stands within the tradition depends on a gutted definition of tradition.

Fr. Woodward, for example, apparently does not consider the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection, or the bodily ascension core doctrines. Here's one of his comments in the thread beneath my first installment.

I do not understand your charges or concerns about deconstructing the Creeds or Scriptures. I understand how those on the “orthodox” side are doing both—demanding a litmus test for choosing the correct understandings of “the Virgin Mary,” and theories of the atonement, the Second Coming and the resurrection as well as undercutting what had been a communion-wide consensus on the status of the Purity Code in determining doctrine in TEC.

I also understand the confusion of many people in dealing with religious language, which is often metaphorical rather than propositional. I think of “sitting on the right hand of God,” which refers, I believe, to the core of the doctrine of the Ascension rather than to a physical event (a man disappearing into the clouds may be an enormous “Wow” but does not mean much without the meaning attached. Your citing the question about belief surrounding “The Virgin Mary.” I do not believe it is a matter of core doctrine that Mary was a virgin at the birth of Jesus—that His birth was at the divine initiative is important, but the history of the phrase, coming from a questionable interpretation of Isaiah, particularly its function at the time it was inserted into the creed indicate that it is the divine initiative that is important, not the nuts and bolts of it. We get to differ about the nuts and bolts—unless that is defined for us at General Convention, in a new Book of Common Prayer or in a common agreement in a new (and pretty scary) Anglican Covenant.
Of course, if these articles are not essential or core articles of the Christian faith, then certainly Fr. Tom, Episcopal Majority, and the Jesus Seminar, Spong and Dr. Borg and ultimately anyone else who mouths the Creeds can be considered “orthodox.”


In fact, from Fr. Woodward’s responses it would seem that the criteria for orthodoxy are 1. “possessing” a 79 prayerbook with a catechism, 2. “reciting” the Creeds (without necessarily believing the propositional content of the words), “celebrating” the resurrection (at least as a metaphor) and adhering like a fundamentalist to a literal reading of the Canons of the Episcopal Church.

In which case, it is difficult to see how this conversation can progress.

Here is the definition of Christian orthodoxy within the Anglican Communion to which I and the vast majority of Anglicans everywhere adhere:

Doctrine, teaching and practice consistent with Scripture and traditions of the Church (based on the four Councils of Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus and Chalcedon; the 39 Articles of Religion; the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral; and the 1888 Lambeth Conference).


By this standard the Episcopal Church is clearly a heretical body and we do not need to dig up references to John Shelby Spong or Dr. Borg to prove it. Simply turn to the election, consent, and consecration of V. Gene Robinson to the office of bishop in the diocese of New Hampshire.

His consent represents a blatant rejection of the plain reading of Scripture, 2000 years of Christian tradition, the contemporary teaching of every branch of Christendom (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant…with the exception of the UCC and the Metropolitan Church) the clear teaching of the Anglican Communion as articulated at Lambeth98 in resolution 1.10, and, lastly, godly reason by the official consenting body of the Church.

His consecration in November 2003, over and against the unanimous warning of the primates in October, represented a public confirmation of that rejection by the presiding bishop and all those assembled.

Before 2003, the heretical bent of the Church was just that, a “bent”. After 2003, heresy became official.

A bishop in the catholic tradition is a bishop not just of his diocese, but of the whole church. He is to “share in the leadership of the Church throughout the world” ('79 BCP p.517) Further, by his life and doctrine, the bishop represents and embodies the life and doctrine of the Body. He is “called to guard the faith, unity, and discipline of the Church…and to be in all things a faithful pastor and wholesome example for the flock.” ('79 BCP p.517)

The bishop is an emblem of the teachings of the Church.

Thus, the elevation of a divorced man living in a sexual relationship with another man, represented a clear, deliberate, officially sanctioned change in the doctrine of the Episcopal Church. What scripture, tradition, communion, and reason forbid, we chose to bless. And on that day the Episcopal Church stepped outside the limits and boundaries of orthodoxy.

At GC2006, that step was reaffirmed.

The charges Fr. Woodward cites in his apology are true (though they are mischaracterized and misstated in his piece). I shall begin the process of demonstrating that in the next installment.

But first it is important to understand that the official adoption of heresy by the Episcopal Church is a matter of historical record. It took place in the summer of 2003 and was completed by November of that same year.

The video, Choose this Day, is accurate, correct, and “prophetic” in its portrayal of the current state of the Episcopal Church.

But the accusations in question (carefully articulated in the video) merely enumerate some of the legion of errors that under-girded the officially sanctioned heretical act of 2003.

Comments:

Well done Matt.

Peace,

G+

[1] Posted by Sir Highmoor on 08-28-2006 at 10:10 AM • top

Excellent, simply excellent.  I am glad that you noted VGR’s status as “a divorced man living in a sexual relationship with another man.” Many of the “orthodox” do not seem to mind his status as a divorcee, just as they overlooked the trigamous state of the new bishop of Northern California.  Had VGR dumped his wife in order to cohabit with a girl, would there have been a comparable protest?  Probably not.

[2] Posted by Laurence K Wells on 08-28-2006 at 10:27 AM • top

Matt,

In seminary I was taught that we followed the first seven councils.  Why just the first four?

[3] Posted by Michael B+ on 08-28-2006 at 11:04 AM • top

Michael,

If you follow the conversation regarding the Common Cause statement of faith, you’ll see that the last three councils are also excepted in so far as they are in agreement with the Scriptures. The first four are consistent with the bible in full, there is some debate about the last three. I am not taking one side or the other, its just that the orthodox univerally agree on the first 4

[4] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-28-2006 at 11:09 AM • top

Thanks for the explanation, Matt.  I wasn’t trying to be mean.

[5] Posted by Michael B+ on 08-28-2006 at 11:50 AM • top

I know Michael+ thanks for the comment. Some other people probably wondered the same thing.

[6] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-28-2006 at 11:52 AM • top

I remember Spong’s visit here in ‘03, presumably (among other things) to help shore up support for the Integrity agenda among the clergy and laity of Dio Nevada in preparation for the Dio Convention at which Ms Craw’s resolution favoring SSBs was passed, with the able assistance of Ms Schori from the chair. The convention took place that October, coincidentally the weekend following the Plano/Dallas ACC conference.

Since that time, this relatively tiny diocese has lost three very good priests—one accepted a position in another diocese, one was “asked” to retire, and a vigorous, talented, and dedicated young priest was effectively forced to resign his orders.  In all fairness, these losses were due at least as much to Ms Schori’s totalitarian management style as to her non-theology, but it’s quite clear that pastoral sensitivity to anyone other than members of Integrity is not on the radar of the current leadership of ECUSA.

[7] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-28-2006 at 12:42 PM • top

I meant, of course, AAC conference. Sorry…

[8] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 08-28-2006 at 12:46 PM • top

The main problem with these ECUSA people is PRIDE.  They cannot believe that things outside the rational, ordinary world exist.  Therefore, in their minds, an omnipotent, gracious, supernatural God—a God who can be born of a virgin, rise from the dead, and ascend into heaven—cannot exist. 

I hear people say, “MY God would never send anyone to hell.” “MY God is a loving God and would never cause pain.” All that is is egocentric babble.

Our job as Christians is to discern God’s nature by turning to His Word instead of putting our own attributes on God.  God is God.  He is Yahweh.  “I AM.” He is not a creation of our rational thought.

I love the mysteries of our faith.  I love being able to say that there are some things that I, in my limited capacity, can never understand.  That’s where my faith comes in.  I rejoice that God has given me the gift of faith.  Praise God!

[9] Posted by MizMay on 08-28-2006 at 01:26 PM • top

Great article, Matt!

[10] Posted by Jackie on 08-28-2006 at 01:53 PM • top

Good job, Matt+. The list of TEC/ECUSA’s trangressions starts way back at +Pike. Our refusal to discipline +Pike was the crowbar that popped the lid of Pandora’s Box. There are too many things to mention on ECUSA’s naughty list to go into in detail but one of my personal favorites is the endorsement of the pagan fertility rite as an alternative liturgy by the ECUSA Office of Women’s Ministries. I have personally seen parish websites (Redeemer New Jersey comes to mind) that seem to advocate anything but traditional Christianity. ECUSA is not falsely accused. If anything, we have not been accusatory enough.

the snarkster

[11] Posted by the snarkster on 08-28-2006 at 04:26 PM • top

Craig Goodrich,

[12] Posted by Publius on 08-28-2006 at 04:58 PM • top

Craig Goodrich,

Would you elaborate Bp. Schori’s “totalitarian” management style? I am curious about what to expect come November. Also, her leadership approach will affect the “summit” in New York in September.

Sorry about the double post.

[13] Posted by Publius on 08-28-2006 at 05:03 PM • top

I expected something with a little more meat, Matt. This is the same old, same old with Spong this, Spong that. . .Woodward does not believe in the resurrection of Jesus like we do (he prefers the Biblical version, while we are free to make up our own and call everyone else a heretic). . Woodward does not believe in the Virgin Birth (even though he has affirmed belief in both doctrines, they are not the way we have litmus tested them—who cares what it means, only that the biological miracle happened, despite serious concerns of many of the NT scholars we put in opposition to Woodward) . . wacka, wacka..2003 changed things forever (and we want everything the way they were even 50 years ago with Blacks in their own churches and women characterized as property in the marriage service and certainly kept in their place and out of GC and Vestries..and back before the Filoque Clause and that great service “The Churching of Women” and no birth control and. . . .).  Is that what you folks want? And the arrogance of calling anyone who has departed from these norms as “heretic?” Shame on you. I am not, in your phrases, criticizing you or slandering you, I am just calling it like it is.

Extra! Extra! The church grows in many ways—and one of the ways it has been growing all along has been in separating out prejudice from Gospel, ignorance from responsiveness to God’s love. Jesus offended the Pharisees in precisely the way I and so many others of TEC offend you—guilty as charged. Remember the scene at the end of the parable of the prodigal son, where the Father invites the judgmental older brother into the party to welcome the younger brother who represented everything the older brother hated (Gene Robinson, Bp. Spong, women in authority). The parable ends with the older brother not able to enter the changed world of the kingdom/party. That part of the parable is addressed to you, really. Read, Mark, Learn and Inwardly Digest.

I appreciate the kindness and courtesy of several on this blog. I have tried, sometimes without success, to be kind and generous in the face of pretty ugly behavior. Instead of hiding behind “heretic,” try listening for the truth in these words.
Tom Woodward

[14] Posted by TBWSF on 08-28-2006 at 09:28 PM • top

Ok Tom.  For most of today I’ve been asking my fellow conservatives to take a deep breath and try to listen.  Some have, some haven’t.  Now I think it is time for you to take the same deep breath and engage in a little charitable listening.

I realize that you’ve had to (and will need to continue to) turn the other cheek over here but such is the call of the cross.

Here is my challenge for you: why does Spong really bother us conservatives?  You say we’re always Spong this, Spong that.  Many of us are guilty as charged.  But if you’re interested in listening (which I know you are), stop for a minute before you say, “Spong doesn’t represent TEC leadership” and ask, “What is it about Spong that is troublesome to my conservative brothers and sisters in Christ?”

Once you’ve figured that out, we can move on to the next question, “Why do the conservatives keep saying TEC leadership has embraced Spong’s theology?” But let’s take it one step at a time.

If you aren’t sure of the answer, I’m sure if you asked some of us over here, we’d be glad to answer.  Peace.

[15] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-28-2006 at 09:46 PM • top

Tom,
Did you forget the prodigal son first repented?

[16] Posted by Jackie on 08-28-2006 at 10:06 PM • top

Mr. Woodward,

I wish every Rector in the Episcopal Church was as candid as you have, and advise his congregation that it has become acceptable in TEC to say you believe in the Virgin Birth and Resurrection even though you don’t believe it really happened in a physical sense.  That is the type of honesty and clarity that would allow the remaining parishioners to make their own choices.

I believe most of the rancor is generated against those who speak candidly about what they believe (and don’t believe) but those who are unwilling or unable to speak honestly.

[17] Posted by Going Home on 08-28-2006 at 10:17 PM • top

First, I have said over and over again that I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is what Scripture reports and what I believe with all my heart—what about that don’t you get? Sorry to be cross, but this is about the 73rd time this accusation has surfaced. Let it go, please.

Jackie, there is no evidence the younger son repented. He had a rehearsed speech that many believe did not represent repentance but ingratiation. There are two strains in the Gospels, one has an emphasis on repentance, the other focuses on the welcoming love of God without repentance, though it often came later.

Widening Gyre—thank you again for your graciousness. I think I have a good sense of why conservatives make a big deal out of Bishop Spong. I am curious by nature and have had long discussions with some of your best. Let me try some of what I have heard or sensed:

JS (Spong) does not seem to care about any boundaries, theological or any other. That invites chaos and the ground for belief is gone.

JS presents a sexy way of belief that looks so good to many who have doubts, but when you look for rock bottom, it is not there—only shifting sand.

Many conservatives prize security: Spong seems to delight in creating risk and insecurity.

Spong is not collegial in any common understanding of that word—that can only lead to a kind of individualism that will completely undercut any hope of Anglican comprehensiveness.

JS’s Biblical critique, which depends a lot on verbal dexterity, undercuts the authority of the Bible as it dissolves into individual interpretation unchecked by the experience and tradition of the Body of believers.

JS’s writings and speeches do not honor the heart of the matter, our existence as the Body of Christ on earth.

JS seems to isolate meaning completely from its source—that is incompatible with a theology of creation, an incarnational theology and a sacramental theology.

Is that OK as a start? I am well aware of the threat to many here. I was raised by a father who took me to church every Sunday for the early service—and then my college roommate did the same for my first two years of college! One of the things I inherited from all that was a bedrock belief in God and in Jesus Christ as Saviour. That has allowed me to read and test Spong, Tillich, Crossan, Borg and others—they are no threat to my orthodoxy, but I do understand how they can be to others and I respect that. Please, others, believe me when I say I respect that in you.

Second question: “Why do the conservatives keep saying TEC leadership has embraced Spong’s theology?” I believe the consecration of Gene Robinson as bishop made all of the above real—and, if we don’t stop here, it will be chaos and individualism all over the place. I respect that fear or judgment, though I do not agree with that. That sense is then fed with a lot of crap, as in some of the posts just preceding—about two people’s experience with Wicca attributed to thousands, with a venturesome posting about a pagan celebration on an unofficial website as representing the next revision of the BCP. Help your brothers and sisters to put aside the crap and we can begin to hope for a common future.

I am also aware that I am probably being somewhat reckless in insisting on the Biblical accounts of the resurrecton and on Paul’s teaching about the same over against a popular notion of a literal, physical resurrection. We both attribute the same meaning and significance to the event—and both would describe the event pretty much the same, but good people, leaders in TEC are somehow branded as heretical in the balance.

Both sides, Widening, owe our Lord our efforts to reach across the divide with fewer and fewer invectives. I have included several in this response, just to reassure you that I know I am still on the journey.
Tom Woodward

[18] Posted by TBWSF on 08-28-2006 at 10:40 PM • top

From the previous thread:

“You are not interested in genuine expressions of the Episcopal Church’s and traditional Anglican faith”

Actually we are.  That’s what the debate is all about.  Unfortunately there appears to be a big disagreement over exactly what traditional Anglican faith is… This dismissive comment is yet another gratitious insult from someone who apparently believes dialogue consists of those ignorant “fundamentalists” bowing to the superior wisdom of TEC’s “moderates”. 

“Another good reason to be kind and generous to people like me is that church property will remain with us in any split, no matter how many schemes are trotted out like Province X, ALPO.”

At least we know what’s important to “moderates” in this debate.  This comment leaves me speechless…

As for your latest post- I sense a bit of frustration as these ignorant “fundies” just aren’t falling in line.  Given your tone I think you’d best just hang it up here.  And your version of the prodigal son is a bit contorted. If VGR repented I think Matt Kennedy would gladly welcome him back into the fold…

[19] Posted by Nevin on 08-28-2006 at 10:55 PM • top

Fortunately that is not Matt’s responsibility or job. Jesus has already welcomed VGR into the fold: it is his responsibility after all. How do I know he has been welcomed—look at the presence of the Holy Spirit throughout his ordained ministry. The Pauline marks of the Spirit have marked his ministry from the beginning. Before he was finally elected bishop (he had been nominated in several dioceses previously) he was pretty universally praised for his ministry, both as parish priest and administrator, as working in dioceses, for the national church, and as key mediator in international disputes. His loyalty to the church of Jesus Christ was not questioned—until with all the uproar he became famous (nothing he ever sought for himself). My brother, an Episcopal priest in NH, has long admired Gene’s ministry and his effectiveness in bringing people, gay and straight, to Jesus Christ. The same was true with all sides of the church.

Our job, as someone noted, is to gather: it is God’s job to sort.
Tom Woodward

[20] Posted by TBWSF on 08-28-2006 at 11:10 PM • top

No evidence of repentance?  The entire theme of Luke 15 is repentance!  The first parable of the chapter (The Lost Sheep) ends with Jesus saying “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” The second (The Lost Coin) ends with Jesus saying “Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” I think it takes a very novel interpretation to assume that the third (The Lost Son) suddenly has nothing to do with repentance.  “Many believe” this is not repentance.  Must be the “moderates” in the TEC. Really, who comes up with this stuff??

[21] Posted by Nevin on 08-28-2006 at 11:20 PM • top

Well, folks, the ballgame is over.  Our friend
Tom announces in the post above that Jesus has welcomed VGR into the fold.  He offers as proof the fact that revisionists all over the place, including Tom’s brother, think Gene is a swell guy, and that Gene’s ministry has been a resounding success.  Left unsaid is why that ministry has resulted in a flood of people leaving TEC, and why there are a flood of others who are about to.  Remember the spin when Gene was consecrated?  It was going to result in a massive influx of folks who would be rhapsodic about Gene’s consecration.  I know it’s poor form to hold revisionists accountable for their past pronouncements, but I just couldn’t resist.  On a related point, it’s also pretty pathetic to watch Tom try to position himself as a “moderate” in the current debate over the future of the Anglican Communion.  Associate Justice of the Supreme Court Antonin Scalia wrote not too long ago:  “What in the world is a moderate interpretation of a constitutional text?  Halfway between what it says and what we’d like it to say?” That’s a pretty good description of the position of theological moderates on interpretation of Scripture.  I think I’ll stay with what Sripture says and leave it to the revisionists to make up their new, improved version of what they would like it to say.  I guess this post isn’t very irenic, but
after being on the end of 35 or 40 years of revisionist sophistry, I’m running a little low on irenic.

[22] Posted by William R. Hurt on 08-29-2006 at 12:13 AM • top

Mr. Hurt,while you confess being not much on the irenic in the present ‘dialogue’ you have a great handle on spotting the ironic.

[23] Posted by paddy on 08-29-2006 at 12:21 AM • top

“The Pauline marks of the Spirit have marked his [+Robinson’s] ministry from the beginning.” What?
Allow me to point out that he has emerged, for one thing, as a pro-abortion activist, and this stance alone will unquestionably increase the flow of members out of TEC.

[24] Posted by Paula on 08-29-2006 at 01:41 AM • top

Fr. Tom,

I’m not sure you read my article. I have yet to address point by points your apologetic. I simply was pointing out, before we get started, that the case for ECUSA’s status as a heretic church is an objctive one that is NOT based on Spong or Borg et al, but based on the events of GC2003-GC2006. In an objective sense, TEC stands now outside the limits of orthodoxy. That was my argument.

[25] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 04:23 AM • top

As far as forgiving VGR, Fr. Tom, you are absolutely right. That is not my job. But I certainly pray that he will repent of his sexual immorality and be restored. In fact, we must all repent of our sins. I would gladly lay down my opposition to him were he to lay down his determination to emgage in, teach, and bless what God has revealed to be sin, leading countless souls away from the light of Christ.

[26] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 05:30 AM • top

The more I read from Rev. Woodward, the more I feel for him.  He grasps, perhaps dimly, that he is on the losing side of this struggle, and is on the wrong side of history.  He fairly begs us to believe that he really is an orthodox Christian.  The high water mark of his entire argument is:
“Another good reason to be kind and generous to people like me is that church property will remain with us in any split, no matter how many schemes are trotted out like Province X, ALPO.”

This reminds me of the wounded serpent which bites itself to expedite its own demise.  Church buildings can be replaced with surprising rapidity.  Mr Woodward ought to meditate on the progress of Grace Anglican, Orange Park FL
(http://www.anglicanalliancenf.org/) which has raised $4M already, after marching out of its properties on Easter Day.
But replacing the thousands of people who have departed ECUSA in the last generation isn’t likely to happen at all.  So Mr Woodward and his co-religionists can (like Pyrrhus)enjoy their legal victories, struggle to make the mortgage payments, stave off foreclosure, and die ignominiously.  Yes, I feel for him.

[27] Posted by Laurence K Wells on 08-29-2006 at 07:12 AM • top

All right, folks.  Our brother in Christ Tom has graciously responded to my question about why we over on our side are troubled by the likes of Spong.  Now before you jump off into the world of “criticism of the absent” (that is, criticizing him for what he DOES NOT write about Spong), I ask for you to consider some charitable “criticism of the present” (that is, what do you think of what he did write).

OK, I’ll start (if you insist).

I thought his comments about bounderies and collegiality were very good.  I’m not sure I would have expressed those concerns in that way so I welcome the different perspective/approach.  I would have been less charitable and probably used words like “disrespect for Scripture” and “spiritual arrogance” so Tom’s phrases are definitely an improvement on the theme.

Tom,

if I might further help your understanding of us conservatives, I would suggest you go one step further in your analysis of Spong.  In particular, given what you have said about him, if I were to follow Spong, where would I end up with respect to my understanding of Jesus Christ?  Could I as a conservative, evangelical Episcopalian embrace Spong without having to change my understanding of the life and work of Jesus Christ?  Or, in keeping with my framework, does Spong’s Jesus square up with our Prayer Book’s Jesus?

Once we get through this conversation, we can turn next to why many of us believe (as Matt has been saying) that Spong’s theology has been accepted/embraced by TEC’s leadership.  I am not ignoring what you wrote about this point (which was helpful) but want to make sure we connect all dots before moving to the next picture.

Peace.

[28] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-29-2006 at 07:55 AM • top

Well, usually when you’re in a hole, the best advice is to stop digging.  Tom Woodward will have none of that, apparently, as he angrily reaffirms his heresy and demands that we call it orthodoxy.  I imagine the spectacle of it all has to be getting a little embarrassing for his defenders on this site, what with his sputtering (and uninformed, which seems to be a pattern) threats over property and his feverish ramblings about things that were never said.

Did you know, for example – I, personally, missed it in my first fifty readings of Matt’s piece – that Matt+, “want[s] everything the way they were even 50 years ago with Blacks in their own churches and women characterized as property in the marriage service and certainly kept in their place and out of GC and Vestries..and back before the Filoque Clause and that great service “The Churching of Women” and no birth control?” (Hey, Tom, did you know Matt’s wife is assistant rector at his parish?)

You didn’t?  But our resident “moderate” said he did, and he said that’s what we all want.  Why, I suppose that’s obvious: affirm the beliefs laid out in the Nicene Creed and you’re a racist and misogynist.

Notice, also, that the problem with Spong is our fault.  It’s not that he’s wrong, but us knuckle-draggers, “prize security,” and Spong, “delight[s],” in taking that away.  Plus, Spong isn’t, “collegial,” so what we really hate him for is rocking the boat.  In short, the error lies in our own backwardness, not in anything Spong has written or said.

Speaking of verbal dexterity, Rev. Woodward flashes quite a bit in opening the text of the prodigal son for us.  Just as I missed Matt’s call for women to be considered property above, I had always missed the nuance that the older brother hated Gene Robinson, Spong and women in authority.  Now, that’s prophecy for you.

[29] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 08:33 AM • top

“Woodward does not believe in the resurrection of Jesus like we do (he prefers the Biblical version, while we are free to make up our own and call everyone else a heretic)”

Tom Woodward,

I can’t be certain of what you believe about the resurrection of Jesus because you haven’t explained yourself.  You seem to me (from what I’ve read in several of your comments) to be contrasting Paul’s notion of resurrection (probably 1 Cor. 15) with that found in the gospels, and claiming that you affirm the former but not the latter.

If that’s what you’re saying (and I’m reading between the lines) you’re echoing a fairly recent move in revisionist NT scholarship.  It seems to go back about forty years to the writings of Willi Marxsen.  In Anglican circles, it seems to have been picked up by Reginald Fuller and Peter (now Archbishop) Carnley.  In Roman Catholic circles it was advocated by Edward Schillebeeckx.

Exegetically and theologically, it won’t do.  I explain why here:

Against a Subjectivist Interpretation of 1 Cor.15

Exegetically, it depends on a misreading of Paul’s contrast between a soma psychikos and a soma pneumatikos, which modern language translations mistranslate as if Paul were a Platonist, contrasting a “physical body” with a “spiritual body.” The adjective psychikos does not mean “physical,” but, for lack of a better English word, “soulish.” The key parallel in Paul is 1 Cor. 2:14, where Paul contrasts the “natural man” (psychikos anthropos) with the “spiritual man” (pneumatikos anthropos). If Paul understands the resurrection body in 1 Cor. 15 to not be “literally physical,” then the “spiritual man” of 2:14 would also not be literally physical. But whatever Paul was, he was not a Platonist, contrasting physical with spiritual.  And he certainly was not saying in 2:14 that some living Christians do not have literal physical bodies.  Ergo, he could not be saying in 1 Cor 15 that the resurrection body is not literally physical.

Theologically, the new reading anachronistically reads Paul as if he had anticipated Schleiermacher by 1800 years.  Supposedly Paul is not talking about appearances of a “literal physical” resurrected Christ seen with physical eyes, but of subjective experiences (some kind of awareness or feeling of grace or forgiveness) that led early Christians to the conclusion Christ was still present, and must therefore in some sense, still be alive.  This experience was then interpreted in language of resurrection and appearances that did not actually take place. 

This, of course, is nothing but projection, believing that because we are liberal Protestants, Paul must have been one as well.

The historic orthodox understanding was defended by Michael Ramsey in his book The Resurrection of Christ, by Rowan Williams in Resurrection, and the final nail was put in the coffin of the Marxsen reading by N. T. Wright’s The Resurrection of the Son of God.

Like the revisionist reinterpretations of the biblical passages that address same-sex activity, the revisionist interpretations that try to contrast Paul’s understanding of resurrection with that of the synoptics are untenable, exegetically and theologically. After Wright, especially, to continue to advocate a thoroughly discredited position should be embarrassing.

But if this is not the position you’re endorsing, I am willing to stand corrected.

[30] Posted by William Witt on 08-29-2006 at 08:40 AM • top

I do sincerely hope that Woodward+ and all his revisionista/moderista bretheren are as happy as clams in their almost empty properties. It seems the only Gospel they adhere to is the “we call the shots, we keep the building Gospel”. Well, keep them, bud. I would really and truly rather worship in a garbage dump than than worship in a beautiful building that serves up the revisionist garbage that TEC/ECUSA espouses today. To paraphrase the old country song, “I’d rather drink muddy water and live in a hollow log, Than be stuck here in ECUSA, treated like a dirty dog”.

the snarkster

[31] Posted by the snarkster on 08-29-2006 at 08:47 AM • top

A previous poster says he feels sorry for me. Don’t bother. I am a joyous Episcopalian—and I long ago chose Jesus over Leviticus (Jesus says there is a choice).

I don’t have to choose between Paul and the Gospels. I embrace them both. Not everything has to be tied down, as most folks here believe.

Many of you complain about people leaving the Episcopal Church—they are not leaving the liberal Episcopal Churches. Where I’ve been, the growth has been terrific—and many are coming because of Gene Robinson. The studies show that there is a decline across the board in Christian churches and that you cannot blame it on VGR. You can sleep better now, OK? Give it up.

Your charge of VGR and, I suppose, everyone else you don’t like of being “pro-abortion” carries no water. The Episcopal Church’s stand on abortion is a very powerful statement—read it. It is not “pro-abortion.” I have not read or heard anyone in the church who is “pro-abortion.” Give it up.
Tom Woodward

[32] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 08:53 AM • top

Rev.Woodward: With all due respect, what planet are you from?

the snarkster

[33] Posted by the snarkster on 08-29-2006 at 08:56 AM • top

Snarkster,

He’s exhibiting classic postmodern deconstructionism—redefining all the terms in order to combat the rhetorical power of the elite.  ; > )

Pro-Abortion isn’t really pro-abortion.  The literal resurrection isn’t really the physical resurrection.  Orthodox is *his* kind of orthodox, not the church’s orthodox.

It’s a good case study in communication theory.  One could take the past three threads in which TBWSF shows his stuff and do a metaanalysis worthy of Derrida.

I think it’s great that he’s posting here.  We need to be reminded of the two gospels that reside in the Episcopal church.  And this reminder is pretty stark, pretty compelling, pretty overwhelming.

[34] Posted by Sarah Hey on 08-29-2006 at 09:03 AM • top

Hey, Sarah Hey! Don’t get me wrong. I’m tickled pink to have him posting here. It saves me a trip over to Fr.Jakes place to see what the opposition has to say.

the snarkster tongue wink

[35] Posted by the snarkster on 08-29-2006 at 09:07 AM • top

Jesus offended the Pharisees in precisely the way I and so many others of TEC offend you—guilty as charged.

It would do, perhaps, to remember that the prodigal son was welcomed back to the world he had left, after his adventuring into new paths not approved by his father. The story ends with his return to his father, not his father running out to embrace his new way of life.

[36] Posted by oscewicee on 08-29-2006 at 09:23 AM • top

“I long ago chose Jesus over Leviticus (Jesus says there is a choice).”

Wrong choice (Mt. 5:17). It’s Leviticus where Jesus got all those obsolete ideas about loving your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18).

[37] Posted by William Witt on 08-29-2006 at 09:23 AM • top

I believe several of you caught my point about how your stance about tradtion, with which you damn GC 2003 and VGR’s consecration, commits you to opposing that string of “innovations” such as integrated churches. Can’t have it both ways, folks—unless, by secret revelation, God has spoken to you in English about which innovations are OK and which are heresies. Listen to the accent, folks, that may not have been God speaking exclusively to you.

Why don’t you go after the real heresies, such as church people who support college and professional football. The touching of pigskin is expressly forbidden in Holy Scripture—or has someone given you the privilege of accepting only the verses which fit your predelictions or prejudices?

Can some of you tell me how you came to such a privileged position of knowledge that you can call others heretics while failing to honor the written word of Scripture? Did CNN miss the passing of the mantle from Pat Robertson?
Tom Woodward

[38] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 09:27 AM • top

Tom the level of ignorance with regard to 1. the scriptures 2. the theology of your interlocutors 3.the place of tradition in orthodox evangelical Anglicanism

is truly breathtaking. Before castigating an idea, it is a really good thing to actually know what it is you are castigating.

[39] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 09:33 AM • top

Mr. Witt, you make my point, exactly. Jesus chose from the Holiness Code in Leviticus (which would have us welcome those who differ from us, even VGR) while dumping the Purity Code, which drives most of Stand Firm. Your problems are not with VGR or Tom Woodward, but with Jesus.
Tom Woodward,
follower of Jesus

[40] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 09:35 AM • top

Keep going, Tom, you’re doing great.

[41] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 09:38 AM • top

Tom - It sounds as if you are giving up on the listening process with your little rant above. The Word of God is clear and you are having trouble with the interpretation being offered by Matt and the Church. Your views are heretical. Repent and return to the Lord.

[42] Posted by Sir Highmoor on 08-29-2006 at 09:41 AM • top

Words fail me.

the snarkster mad

[43] Posted by the snarkster on 08-29-2006 at 09:41 AM • top

I said after Matt’s first post in this series that this was an enormously important conversation for us all to have.  It still is, if we can find a real moderate to participate.

In the meantime, if anybody from the Network is reading, Tom Woodward has given you enough material in the last few days for Choose This Day II and Choose This Day III.

[44] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 09:47 AM • top

Tom,

I knew it would not be long before you resorted to the shellfish argument.

Here’s a section of an article I wrote to my congregation about the same:

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13
Now let’s turn briefly to the Old Testament. I have saved this part of my discussion until now because the material we find in Romans and 1st Corinthians establishes that Paul not only carried forward the OT prohibition against homosexual behavior, but added much to it, providing the reason behind its prohibition, namely that it is perversion of the created order stemming from the Fall. It is helpful to have this NT context before turning to the OT because the OT passages which condemn homosexuality as an “abomination”
or “detestable” (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13) have been mischaracterized as:

• Part of the temple/tabernacle purity code, which was abolished in the NT when through his sacrifice Jesus became the new Temple, and

• Part of a xenophobic attempt to retain Hebrew identity over and against surrounding peoples. Since that particular social need is no longer extant, the law created to meet it is no longer necessary . . . so goes the argument.

Inspired by the Holy Spirit, Paul as we have already seen, and Jesus and the NT Church as we will see, understood the prohibitions found in Leviticus 18, including Leviticus 18:22, to be primarily moral in nature. Though there were most definitely ritual ramifications to transgressing the laws that are spelled out in Leviticus 20:13 (namely that one became unclean), the laws in themselves were understood to be primarily moral in nature. Thus, the either/or character of the most recent revisionist polemic must be corrected by a both/and point of view.

There are three categories of Levitical law: purity/ritual, theocratic and moral. Only the last category—moral—was intended to stand eternally. 

The Purity/Ritual Levitical Laws:
The purity/ritual laws have to do with tabernacle and temple. They were introduced by God to reinforce the concepts of holiness and bodily purity. The rules and regulations associated with the temple no longer apply to Christians for the very good reason that Jesus Christ, in his body and through his blood, has fulfilled and replaced the temple, as the writer of Hebrews makes clear in chapters 9-10 and as Peter’s vision makes clear in Acts 10:9-23. Christ is our purity and our sacrifice.

The Theocratic Levitical Laws:
The theocratic laws had to do with governing the people of Israel during the time of the judges and kings. They were intended to reinforce the concept of Israel being set apart as a holy nation and people. Because of rebellion and idolatry, those kingdoms were taken away. The new Kingdom of God introduced in and through Jesus Christ has superceded the old theocratic covenant, and therefore, the laws regarding governance in the Promised Land no longer apply.

Jesus did not come to change these laws, but rather, as he put it, to fulfill them. As the representative Israelite, he fulfilled the mission in and through the law that Israel as a nation failed to fulfill. In obedience even unto death, he became the light to the nations and the glory of God’s people Israel . With Jesus’ death and resurrection, the people of God have been given an eternal purity in his blood and have been ushered into a new sort of theocracy, the Kingdom of God, that includes all who call Jesus Lord. The old has passed away, God is making all things new.

[45] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 09:49 AM • top

cont…

Notice, however, that this fulfillment, this new creation, was initiated and begun by the sovereign Lord and verified and authenticated not apart from the law and the prophets, but through and according to them. This new covenant in blood was not voted on or dictated by the Sanhedrin or by popular demand, but it was handed down and authenticated by God himself at the resurrection and ascension. Moreover, the NT writers themselves, inspired by the Holy Spirit, attest to all of these things.

The Moral Levitical Laws are Eternal
Now we come to the third category, the moral law. These have not been superceded or changed. In this category you will find the Ten Commandments, the laws regarding sexual morality, and the laws regarding the poor and the foreigners. These laws are consciously alluded to and purposely mentioned by Jesus and the NT writers as absolutely binding in the new Kingdom.

The present debate has centered upon whether or not the sexual regulations listed in Leviticus 18 are to be categorized as purity/ritual laws or moral laws. It is clear, however, from the fact that the prohibitions against all forms of sexual behavior outside of monogamous heterosexual marriage are consistently and clearly condemned in the NT, including implicitly and explicitly homosexual conduct, that Jesus and the apostles considered these laws to be moral laws established at creation and in force until the end. That the NT writers considered them to be moral in nature should be clear from our discussion of Romans 1 and 1st Corinthians 6:9 above. That Jesus understood these laws to be moral rather than purity/ritual is clear from his discourse in Mark 7:9-23 (discussed below). That the early church held and enforced the same understanding is clear from the instructions to Gentile believers found in Acts 15:20.

Jesus does not address homosexual behavior as distinct from other illicit sexual behaviors, but he condemns it all the same by his negative application of the word “pornia” in Mark 7:21-22 and Matthew 15:19. The Greek word “pornia” in the context of first century Judaism referred specifically to the Levitical laws found in Leviticus 18 (homosexuality is specifically mentioned in 18:22).

The rabbis of the first century often used shorthand phrases to refer to the law, as we saw with the phrase “the law and the prophets” which refers to the Tanahk. “Pornia” was another shorthand word that, again, was used to refer to all the acts and behaviors listed in Leviticus 18 from incest to bestiality, from adultery to homosexuality. Therefore, when Jesus says, “But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander . . . ”(Matt 15:18-19), he indicates very clearly that all the acts considered sexually immoral in the Levitical law code, from heterosexual promiscuity to homosexual partnerships, are to be considered immoral by his disciples as well. They are, in other words, moral in nature and thus eternal.

The very same word, “pornia,” is used in Acts 15:20 by the church council in Jerusalem. They command Gentile believers to abstain from “pornia,” again, a direct reference to and a clear endorsement of the Levitical sexual code.

In sum, throughout scripture you will find not one positive or even neutral word relating to homosexual activity. When referenced, the homosexual drive and the homosexual act are always and everywhere referenced as sins consistent with and arising out of the fallen-ness of humanity. To paraphrase Dr. Gagnon once again, homosexual behavior is a behavior that is proscribed by both testaments implicitly and explicitly, pervasively, severely, absolutely and without shadow or shade.

[46] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 09:49 AM • top

Phil, you’re not really helping here.  How can we get this back on track?

I’d say Matt (and others) aren’t handling this much better than Tom is. 

For the record, I’m still of the impression that Tom sincerely believes he is a representative of the moderates in TEC.  Sure, he starts from a position of biblical knowledge vastly superior to most moderates I know (who tend to be rather clueless about such matters).  But he has consistently maintained his faith in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord and not one of us has the right to say, “Tom, you’re lying.” We don’t have that super power (at least I don’t).

Now, it’s true we can ask how certain statements he has made relate to Christ as Lord and Savior, and we can say that certain of his statements seem to call into question those beliefs, but above all we should engage in this conversation in a charitable and Christ-affirming manner.

[47] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-29-2006 at 10:03 AM • top

WG,

1. I am not sure where you get the idea that anyone is calling Tom a liar.

2. Mormons consistently and sincerely maintain their faith in Jesus Christ. The problem is that the Jesus they proclaim is not the Jesus revealed in the scriptures. That is the problem here as well. No one is questioning his sincerity. I am questioning the foundations of the faith he is proclaiming.

3. Your mediation, while appreciated and well intentioned, is also wrong headed. These are important issues that will inevitably be debated with passion. There have been no personal insults delivered. Ideas and assertions have been subject to withering criticism, as they should be.

[48] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 08-29-2006 at 10:10 AM • top

I’m sorry you don’t view me as being helpful, WG.  Let me restate, first, that this is a very important conversation for us all to have.

Sadly, I have been increasingly dismayed by the tone and content of Tom Woodward’s posts, which, as you can read for yourself, have ranged from inferences that conservatives are racists and misogynists, to the belief that taking a view of Christian belief differing from Nicene theology is orthodox, to not-so-vague threats to seize the property of those that depart ECUSA.  Frankly, I’m a little tired of that kind of, “conversation,” which is neither moderate nor fruitful.

I, too, usually appreciate the tone you contribute to the various discussions across the blogosphere, but the Tom Woodward being represented here really doesn’t merit your defense.  He may be a great guy who just doesn’t take criticism well, but most of his comments here have gone beyond the pale.  Other readers can draw their own conclusions.

[49] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 10:29 AM • top

And I thought I’d read some bizarre things but it seems that the ‘Jesus’ people here have a problem is not the Lord Jesus Christ but the imaginative innovation of some who would use God words to condone heresy and aberration of marriage.
William Barclay has a pair of insightful treatments of 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that more than apply here(taken from Barclay’s NT and Letters To Timothy,Titus and Philemon)’For there will come a time when men will refuse to listen to sound teaching,but,because they have ears which have to be continually titillated with novelties,they will bury themselves under a mound of teachers,whose teaching suits their own lusts after forbidden things.They will avert their ears from the truth,and they will turn to extravagant tales.’p202 Letters To Timothy,Titus and Philemon
Barclay’s translation is even a bit more blunt:’The time will come when they will refuse to listen to sound teaching.They will collect a motley assortment of teachers to tickle their ears by telling what they want to hear.They will deliberately shut their ears to the truth,and will wander down the byways of mythology.’2 Tim.4:3-4 Barclay

[50] Posted by paddy on 08-29-2006 at 10:57 AM • top

My apologies,I missed part of verse 3 in my citation of verse 3 in the Barclay NT,here it is completely:’The time will come when they will refuse to listen to sound teaching.They will collect a motley assortment of teachers to tickle their ears by telling them the things they want to hear.’

[51] Posted by paddy on 08-29-2006 at 11:07 AM • top

Matt, your analysis of the Purity Code is thoroough but it is your analysis. Of greater import is the ways Jesus saw it in conflict with his own mission and ministry. He notes that conflict over and over again and presents radical alternatives to their authority, most prominently in the Parable of the Leaven and The Parable of the Marriage Feast.

As I noted earlier, both Reformed and (most of) Conservative Judaism, who know these things better than either of us, have rejected the Purity Code’s condemnation of homosexuality and homosexual relationships. They saw what Jesus saw: they conflicted with what we know about real relationships. I would love to walk you and others on this blog through the life and teaching of Jesus—it’s very illuminating. Maybe I can get you a discount on my third book, which should be out fairly soon.

Another subject—are there any mainline seminaries you all approve. I’ve taught at Nashotah House and the Graduate Theological Union (affiliated with CDSP) and recently published a major article in The Sewanee Theological Review. The article in STR will really send you into orbit.

It is fascinating to me, though, to watch Jesus constantly enlarging the boundaries of the Beloved of God, while you are working full time to narrow them. You seem to focus on behavior condemned in certain contexts (as in Romans) and then apply it to all contexts. It is very much like taking a condemnation of battering women and condemning all marriage because of it. What Paul and the Episcopal Church has chosen to do is to look, as Jesus tells us to do, at the quality of the relationship and the marks of the Holy Spirit in those relationships and heeding those qualities of faithfulness, love, caring, mutual affection and fidelity. It is a lot more complicated than Category A and Category B. Both are full of complexity and not amenable to simple “heresy” or “apostate.”
Tom Woodward
Certified Orthodox in the Traditional Meaning

[52] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 11:26 AM • top
Mr. Witt, you make my point, exactly. Jesus chose from the Holiness Code in Leviticus (which would have us welcome those who differ from us, even VGR) while dumping the Purity Code, which drives most of Stand Firm. Your problems are not with VGR or Tom Woodward, but with Jesus.

One really does get tired of these kind of sloppy mischaracterizations of historic orthodoxy.  Jesus did not abolish a purity code in favor of a moral code (an invention of Countryman and Borg).  There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus abolished a single prescription of the Torah, with the possible exception of the food laws.

I’ve responded to these kinds of arguments in detail here:

Arguments for same-sex behavior: outlines and inadequacies

and here:

William Witt Responds to Tobias Haller

Matt has already addressed this above.  The Reader’s Digest condensed response is: Read Art. VII of the 39 Articles.

[53] Posted by William Witt on 08-29-2006 at 11:40 AM • top

Dr. Witt,
My article in The Sewanee Theological Review deals with some of this. Luke’s version of The Parable of the Mustard Seed, noted by most scholars as the earliest version, has Jesus proving a setting which is a direct violation of the Purity Code.

The Parable of the Leaven is, again, a direct attack on it, as is, I believe, the Parable of the Marriage Feast.

Then, again, you can find Jesus having “table fellowship” with the tax collectors and sinners” giving great offense to the guardians of the Torah and its prohibitions.

There is good evidence that this teaching forms the basis or a good part of the basis for the growing opposition to Jesus by the Jewish leaders.

Tom Woodward

[54] Posted by TBWSF on 08-29-2006 at 11:51 AM • top

Tom Woodard,

Robert Gagnon’s material on Jesus in The Bible and Homosexual Practice is sufficient IMHO to address this question about Jesus’ attitude to the OT law.  In contrast to the gnostics and Marcionites, the early church did not find itself rejecting parts of the OT as morally deficient.  In fact, it developed the distinctions made already in Irenaeus, developed definitively by Aquinas, and echoed in Hooker and the 39 Articles between moral, ceremonial, and civil law precisely to avoid making this error.

[55] Posted by William Witt on 08-29-2006 at 11:59 AM • top

“In earlier days he had attacked her with persecutions from without; but now that he was debarred from this, he resorted to unscrupulous imposters as instruments of spiritual corruption and ministers of destruction, and employed new tactics, contriving by every possible means that imposters and cheats, by cloaking themselves with the same name as our religion, should at one and the same time bring to the abyss of destruction every believer they could entrap..”

Eusebius, History of the Church

Sadly every generation has to fight heresy in the church as Eusebius records.  I get the strong feeling that the “moderates” in TEC would have been inviting Basilidies, Carpocrates, et. al. into their churches had they been around ca. 100 (like Spong).  I view Matt Kennedy as modern day Irenaeus who, per Eusebius, “(was) busy at that time fighting for the truth and eloquently championing the beliefs of the apostles and the Church...(setting) down on paper for the benefit of later generations the means of defence against these very heresies.”

A bit over the top?  Perhaps, but that’s the way it looks from this vantage point.

[56] Posted by Nevin on 08-29-2006 at 11:59 AM • top

Matt,

Again I may have misread certain posts but I certainly got the impression that several folks here were calling Tom a liar about his description of himself as a moderate and as orthodox.  I guess you could argue that they were not calling him a liar but just simply telling him he was wrong (perhaps the withering criticism overwhelmed my poor little brain).

Now, about passionate debate.  I agree with you that these are important issues and very personal issues and issues that we are all here quite passionate about.  I agree with you that positions can and should be refuted/responded to with further argument (and I’ll put my arguments head to head with anyone else’s).  But you and I apparently disagree over the proper tone in which to carry out this argument/debate/discussion.  Or, for some reason, I read certain comments as being inappropriate while you read right over them.

Let me give a few examples of what I would like to see less of from my fellow conservative evangelical Episcopalians:

1.  Responding to someone who claims to be a brother in Christ but who you’ve never met nor with whom you’ve engaged in significant discussion with the following short response: “Your views are heretical.  Repent and return to the Lord.”

2.  Referring to a brother in Christ’s level of ignorance as being “breathtaking.”

3.  Referring to a brother in Christ’s efforts at explaining himself as being “pathetic.”

4.  Describing the comments of a brother in Christ as “sputtering and uninformed” and as “feverish ramblings.”

Now, do I believe we have the right and duty to point out the inconsistencies or errors in the ways of our Worthy Opponents? You bet your Arse I do.  I spend (waste?) a good portion of everyday trying to do just that over at Jake’s Place, Mark Harris’ Sus-sus-sudio, Jim Naughton’s “Starting a blog about the Book of Daniel TV Show Seemed like a cool idea” site, and Susan “We Start with the Inch and Now Take the Rest” Russell’s site. 

What I’ve realized is that for some of our Worthy Opponents, given their particular world view, the tone of our discussion matters more to them then the actual topic.  I realize that is hard for some hardcore “We’re Orthodox, We’re Right, and Here’s Why” folks over here to hear, but it is true.  We have to EARN the right to be heard (to borrow from Young Life’s creed) before we start shouting. 

And Phil, I agree with you that some of Tom’s comments were over board. So what? Remember the end of The Untouchables when Ness has just put away Capone.  He has that great Mamet line, “I have become what I beheld and I am content that I have done right.” That may be great theater but I don’t think it gels with our command to love our enemies. 

Hey, we’re all working through this together with fear and trembling.  I value your efforts, too.  Peace to you both.

[57] Posted by Widening Gyre on 08-29-2006 at 12:05 PM • top

I’ll try this in a tone that might be more satisfactory to Widening Gyre.  Rev. Woodward, when you say that a particular condemnation should not be taken out of its specific context, how, then, might you come to the conclusion than it is un-Christian to steal?  The Ten Commandments were given in a specific context, at a really tough time for the Israelites, when this kind of behavior would have been disruptive to their forty-year journey.  Once everybody had settled into the Promised Land and wealthy people began to emerge, such a prohibition would become rather archaic.  It certainly seems archaic today when wealth is so concentrated in the hands of a few.  One might argue that the poor stealing from the rich is an absolute good, especially given the imperative of our baptismal covenant that we insist on justice and dignity for those wronged people.

Do you think Scripture has anything to teach us about stealing?  Or, are we removing it from its proper context?  Or, is the convention against stealing simply a construct of today’s society, which might be changed?

[58] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 12:13 PM • top

WG, your points are well taken.

May I come at this from another angle?

Let’s say you and a friend, both good Americans, are discussing the federal budget for space travel.  You support it as a good and worthy cause, and your friend thinks it is a hopeless waste of taxpayer money.  That’s a perfectly valid, and, maybe even interesting, public policy discussion.  The conversation might even get heated; that’s fine, you’re friends, and you’re both convinced your respective positions are right.

Once your friend starts going on about how the NASA budget is all intended to benefit Bush’s friends in Texas, and that, by the way, Bush ought to be impeached, and the whole moon landing was staged in California anyway, it’s time to stop talking.  I concede you’re right that the best way to end the conversation is not to mercilessly mock your friend for his views.  Perhaps that’s been my error here.  However, it is an equal error to continue to engage with your friend as though he is still making reasonable points.

“So what” that Tom’s comments were overboard?  “So what” that he says we all want blacks segregated in their own churches and want women to be treated as property?  Those comments go beyond overboard.  They are vicious slanders that ought not to be taken as serious debating points, or evidence of good faith.

Maybe we’re all starting to buy into the idea that Anglicanism is church of nothing.  Well, it isn’t.  It’s a church of something, and, while the ecclesiology of the Communion may prevent us from having a concrete list of what those “somethings” are, at least a few of them ought to be acknowledged just by virtue of being what has, “been believed everywhere, always and by all.” If you dispute those things, you are, by definition, a heretic.  Note that, as the Church defines heresy, the heretic is still considered a Christian, but a Christian who disputes a point of the Faith as taught by the Church.  As such, the person is expected to repent of this sin and acknowledge authentic teaching.

That it has become bad form to point this out speaks badly for our church and explains why we are where we are.

[59] Posted by Phil on 08-29-2006 at 12:35 PM • top

In both Part I & most of my reading of II, I didn’t post because I felt as though I didn’t have the Anglican chops to wade in this water. I still don’t, but I’m posting anyway.  As I’ve often said here, I grew up Southern Baptist and I don’t have the prospective of a cradle Episcopalian.  So as I write this and if you are still reading, Fr. Woodward, please understand that I am not attacking, but explaining the position of one