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Sarah Hey
Response to the Comments on the Camp Allen Article: Six Themes to Observe
Monday, October 16, 2006 • 7:20 am
You may be sitting back and watching and thinking "boy, I think like these StandFirm folks do [or ACI, or AAC, or ACN] -- thank God they are out here doing all the work that needs to be done, whatever that is -- when everything gets fixed it sure will be great -- thank goodness they're doing it because I sure wouldn't want to be in the thick of this mess".

If you are thinking that, you need to understand something crucial. It will not always be like this. Reformers come and reformers go. The pleasure that you are experiencing as others work will not last forever, as someday, you will look up and many will be disappearing into the mists ahead of you.

It has been two weeks since my optimistic little effort to explain why I am not remotely distressed over the Camp Allen statement. The joy amongst my friends and allies that I was finally becoming An Optimist has long since died down, as most have realized that it was a "blip on the radar" of Sarah's psyche, and based mostly on my usual Deep Undercurrent of Stark Pessimism about Human Nature that caused my brief sally into "That Wasn't So Bad!" optimism. I should note, though, that I have not changed my opinion about the Camp Allen statement.

I want to thank the many of you who emailed me and also posted comments of kind words and thanks and analysis and challenge. It is very meaningful to receive encouraging words and thoughtful comments from fellow Roistering Episcopal Adventurers, and I appreciate them.

It was a little overwhelming to read all the comments and analysis. I had thought that I would enter in to the comment thread and respond to several of them, but they stacked up so quickly that unraveling them all in a thread of responses seemed chaotic.

As I pondered and scoured through all the comments, I noticed that they could be clumped into various clusters. There was a cluster of choruses to "Leave ECUSA Now". There were fewer choruses to "Stay Forever in ECUSA". There were a few "We'll Stay but We're Dying To Know When We Should Leave". There was the one solo of "ECUSA Will Be Reformed". And then there was the usual MATT KENNEDY cluster, made up of a persuasive . . . "Matt Kennedy". ; > )

The cluster of comments also revealed a number of "themes" that I think it would be a good idea to address. I won't try to convince people to be "unconcerned" or "more worried" or "pessimistic" in this article about Camp Allen and the Communion. Most of our opinions are pretty much fixed and, as I have argued before, based on firm hierarchies of values that I don't expect will change too much in the future.

From those clusters, I recognized some of those hiearchies of values and predominant themes that guide the opinions and analyses of all of us. And I thought I would state a few of those themes -- and offer my thoughts on them. I will highlight those themes by offering my own opinion in somewhat stark and bald rhetoric. I think that my bald rhetoric will not necessarily change people's minds or analyses. But I do think it will be revealing of the many themes that are underlying all of our conversations on this and other blogs.

Keep in mind, as you read, that every Roistering Episcopal Adventurer who reads this blog comes to an article or analysis or news item with varying opinions about these themes -- some of their opinions are *contradictory* to what I will state as my opinion. But every traditional ECUSAn, I think, has an opinion one way or the other about these six themes. As I myself state my opinions about these themes, and as you ponder your own opinions about these themes, hopefully along the way the comments in response to my last article will be responded to. I don't articulate these themes in order to persuade you of my opinion, but in order to stake out where I stand on these issues, and to encourage all of us to notice these themes in the news and analysis which will occur over the coming months.

So without further ado, I'll jump in.


1) Some Anglican entities greatly desire that the Anglican Communion not discipline ECUSA at all.

This seems, at first, like a no-brainer. Obviously, Bishop Griswold, Bishop Schori, some 60% to 80% of the House of Bishops, and many many many clergy, along with the approximately 20% of the laity who are Worthy Opponents [remember that the Beloved Moderates just hope everyone will go back to sleep], desire that ECUSA not be disciplined at all.

Furthermore, the hierarchies of power in Wales, Scotland, Canada, South Africa, and Brazil, along with many bishops and clergy in the Church of England . . . greatly desire that ECUSA not be disciplined at all.

That's sort of an "obvious" statement. Naturally, those fearless church leaders who support the revisal of society's definitions of sexual morality wish that ECUSA's current hierarchy would remain an influential and leading figure within the Communion and within the US. Even those bishops who aren't so keen on redefining sexual morality recognize that it would be "awfully inconvenient" for the Anglican Communion to discipline ECUSA, as it would force them, sadly, to make choices rather than simple peacefully and restfully "be". ; > )

But also we need to understand that many conservative Anglican entities and individuals hope that ECUSA will not be disciplined by the Anglican Communion.

They hope this for many reasons.

Some believe that the Anglican Communion is also hopelessly revisionist, and believe that any attempts to discipline and boundary the Anglican Communion further is but "placing a ring in the nose of a pig".

Some believe that, if only traditional Episcopalians would give up on the Anglican Communion, all of them/us [traditional Episcopalians] would leave, join with the rest of the conservative Anglicans, and build a better "alternate communion".

And some hope for the fracture of the Anglican Communion, and recognize that the only hope for a significant fracture of the Anglican Communion will be if certain parties -- the Global South, for instance -- realize that ECUSA will not be disciplined. Once a fracture of the Anglican Communion occurs, some believe that they will achieve a more central, prominent, and powerful place in the new, reconstituted, traditional fragment of the former communion than they have otherwise achieved.


2) Should the Anglican Communion fail to discipline ECUSA and the Anglican Communion fracture, there will be no Grand and Large Exodus of the traditional members of ECUSA into alternate Anglican entities or a reconstituted communion.

Now, let me be clear. Should the AC fail to discipline ECUSA and achieve instead a massive fracture -- there will be a massive exodus of Roistering Episcopal Adventurers. But that exodus will not, by and large, depart to alternate Anglican entities or a reconstituted communion.

I believe that many believe wrongly that that will happen -- and it is a fatal error in belief. Understand that they are not counting on "Beloved Moderates" to exodus [nor would they desire Beloved Moderates to be a part of their new alternate communion anyway] -- and they are right in not counting on that. Beloved Moderates will, in general, depart under no circumstances at all.

But they are counting on Roistering Episcopal Adventurers to depart for alternate Anglican entities -- and they are very much mistaken in that assumption. I have said it before and I will say it again. The majority of departures from ECUSA -- and I have many representations of such in my email box -- have been for other denominations entirely. Certainly some of the mass parish departures have been for alternate Anglican entities. And there have been individuals, for instance, who have gone to Continuing or REC or AMiA parishes that already exist. But the vast majority have gone to other non-Anglican entities -- and that trend will continue, I believe.

My email box is stuffed with these people. There's the man in Alabama who went to the local Methodist church. There's the woman in Columbia who went to the Missouri Synod. There's the man in York who went to the PCA denomination -- along with many from my parish who have largely gone either to the large downtown Presbyterian church or the large seeker-sensitive non-denominational church. There are my friends -- among many, many -- who converted to Rome. There's the couple in California who went to the Presbyterian church. And the list continues and grows. These people go unheralded and unpublicized. But their numbers are very large -- much larger than the much-trumpeted departures to parishes in alternate Anglican entities.

My non-scientific, but rather copiously illustrated estimate is that so far, of the numbers of people in ECUSA who have departed in the past three years, about 70% went to non-Anglican entities.

Beyond the example of so many around me, there is my own decision. Should the Anglican Communion fail to discipline ECUSA, I will leave ECUSA, because I will no longer wish to be a part of the Anglican Communion at all. A lack of discipline of such a rampantly and grossly heretical denomination will spell the death knell of the Communion. And, for me, it will spell the death knell of the notion of a global, unified, universal, catholic Anglican entity.

I will leave ECUSA -- and it will not be for a fragment of the former communion. Having suffered the loss of hope for Anglicanism and recognizing that its ecclesiology was simply unable to hold at its center, I will focus solely on my local community at that point. I will have no interest in re-entering the denominational culture wars that are raging all around us -- I am amazed that people can depart ECUSA for another mainline denomination, thus buying a temporary lull in an inevitable battle within the newly chosen denomination and it is my belief that one must truly love a denomination to enter into the battle [in my case, Anglicanism is what I love] -- and I am unable, theologically, to affirm the truth of some central tenets of Roman Catholic or Eastern theology. So I will choose the most discipling, evangelizing, thoughtful, culture engaging congregational church, and submit my services and heart to it. Yet my theology will continue on as an Anglican. That is what I believe and is what I am.

I do not think that my heart will ever recover from such a catastrophic loss of something that is so dear to me.

But then, people lose loved ones every day, and hearts do go on beating.

Although I do not believe that most traditional Episcopalians would make *my* choice of a future church home, should the Anglican Communion fracture, I also do not believe that most will choose an alternate Anglican entity. I believe that in the event of an Anglican Communion fracture, the departures will mirror the trend already seen.

The only positive thing I can see out of this is that I am a person -- along with many many others in the Episcopal church -- whose "back is against the wall". And that yields either passivity or action. I have chosen the latter, and many others have too.


3) Rowan Williams does not need an "excuse" or reason not to act. He is already inclined not to act, and could any day, week, or month -- based on nothing more than "the Spirit telling him so" -- issue a press release saying how thankful he is that the Windsor Process has been a wonderful success and that things are moving along smoothly and that he is pleased that so much reconciliation and re-focusing on mission and ministry is occurring all over the communion. [On a side note, the Camp Allen statement did not "step back" from anything, any more than the Global South Kigali statement "stepped back" from the Global South Egypt statement when it did not repeat certain thoughts and statements. But regardless of its not stepping back, no matter what the Camp Allen statement said or did not say, Rowan may or may not use whatever it did say to do what he plans to do anyway, so it is a moot point.] Furthermore, as I have said before, the existence of two provinces within the US, both in communion with Canterbury, will in my opinion create further inertia, not less, for Rowan Williams.

If Rowan were to issue such a communication, of course, some of the Global South primates might perhaps announce that they are not coming to Lambeth, and Rowan Williams could kindly say that he still considers them "brothers in the glorious gospel of Christ", and that would be it. [Note: please understand that I do not believe that Rowan Williams would issue such a communication. Why? Because it is decisive and therefore an action, which would precipitate action by others, rather than the sought-for delay of action.]

Here it is clear that my essential pessimism about Rowan Williams runs very counter to Matt Kennedy's optimism. Matt believes that Rowan is inclined to act to discipline ECUSA. I believe that Rowan is desperate for further delay and that delay was the focus, endpoint, and modus operandi from beginning to end, for the past three years. At the initial emergency Primates meeting, Rowan wanted to delay taking an action. At the ensuing ACC meetings, Rowan wanted to delay taking an action. At ensuing Primates meetings, Rowan wanted to delay taking an action, and brokered the Windsor Report. That bought more than a year of time while waiting on the report to be released. Then the Primates meeting to consider the Windsor Report bought another year of waiting for the General Convention and Canada's Synod to accept or decline. With the ECUSA's resounding decline of the Windsor Report's requests, Rowan now turns his eyes to the covenant, which buys another two years.

You get the drift -- delay is the point.

Of course, others within the communion continue to close off escape routes and narrow the options for both the communion as a whole and for the Archbishop of Canterbury in particular. But that's the political game, isn't it? One side narrowing options and revealing consequences for delay -- that's the shorthand for "pain" -- and the other side brokering delay.

None of this is particularly profound or new -- it's a process that runs itself out in all organizations, whether "secular" or "sacred". Eventually, the consequences for one or both sides will reach the level of what I like to call "Shrieking Pain". And it is at the level of "Shrieking Pain" that one or both sides will finally act within the Communion.

We may decry all of this. But let's face it -- individuals also almost always only respond to the "Shrieking Pain" level when the moment arrives for change. It's just the way life is, and those of us caught within all of this need to take the gift of time that God has offered us and use it well and faithfully.


4) There is a general denial of consequences on all sides within and without ECUSA.

I have noticed this for three years, and the trend continues unrelentingly. Orthodox ECUSA rectors announce that their parishes are "growing in mission and ministry" and urge their parishioners to "focus on the gospel" and "not be concerned about national issues"; in effect -- become more of a congregationalist. They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within ECUSA. Certain other clergy and laity decry anything that sounds "pessimistic" since that might cause more parishes and laypeople to leave.

Revisionist ECUSA rectors tell their parishioners that "the reason why the treasurer resigned is because he did not like the change in Sunday morning service times", despite the rector receiving a letter clearly detailing why the treasurer [or senior warden or junior warden or head of the Altar Guild] is leaving. They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within ECUSA. Revisionist bishops write letters to their parishes telling them that since diocesan giving has dried up due to the poor economy or "decreased giving to non-profits", a new "double tithe" will now be instituted to "improve the mission and ministry of the diocese". They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within ECUSA.

Orthodox bishops announce that parishioners should "stop reading blogs". They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within ECUSA.

Raving revisionist leaders decry the bigots and homophobes and fundamentalists that have suddenly popped up within ECUSA, no doubt funded by the IRD. They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within ECUSA.

In the meantime, other bishops cheerily announce that they are still totally engaged and connected with Global South provinces -- there has been no chilling of relations. Or if there has been that is only because of the hateful Archbishop Akinola, and the laity still love us all. Or if the laity do not -- then the women do. In fact, there is this new "Anglican Women" group fostered by Phoebe Griswold that proves it. They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within the Anglican Communion.

In the meantime, clergy and parishes and laypeople who have left ECUSA announce that they are "still in the Anglican Communion". Or they announce that even if they are out of the Anglican Communion "it doesn't matter, since we have an Anglican Communion primate". Or "it doesn't matter, since any day now a new province will be formed that allows us to be in the Anglican Communion no matter what". Or . . . "really all of this stuff that looks like fragmentation of the Anglican witness is actually the orthodox uniting, and we are all really unified even though it looks as if we are becoming more balkanized". Or "our leaving will force the Archbishop of Canterbury to act to discipline ECUSA and acknowledge our group, after the fact, even if Canterbury did not do so a mere seven years ago for the AMiA." They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within the Anglican Communion.

In the meantime, laypeople who have not left ECUSA wish to continue under the happy illusion that "really only a few bad apples in ECUSA are making it look so bad" and that, given enough time, "ECUSA will be reformed". Or . . . "by virtue of our being in communion with the ABC, we are still in communion with provinces of the Global South". Or "we are in a Network diocese, so all is well."

One of the classic trends that I continue to notice, as we all struggle to deny the *consequences* of whatever painful actions that we are taking, is the cheery translocation into the present time the hopes of the future.

If someday we *hope* for ECUSA to be reformed -- then it has already happened. If someday we *hope* for a new province in the US that is in communion with Canterbury, then it has already happened. If someday we *hope* that Canterbury will discipline ECUSA, then it has already happened. If someday we *hope* for Anglican splinter groups to be united, then it has already happened. If someday we hope -- as a "Windsor wannabe" bishop -- that we will be invited to Lambeth, then it has already happened.

The reality is that things are bad. They are really really bad and any action that a layperson, clergyperson, or bishop makes in whatever part of Anglicaninsm that he or she resides is sad.

If an Episcopalian chooses to stay within ECUSA to work for reform of whatever entity he is working for . . . he is in a terribly heretical, corrupt, and depraved national church body that is a dreadful witness to pagans and seekers. Furthermore, many many individuals and parishes will leave, no matter how cheery the reforming Episcopalian may try to sound -- it is the natural consequence of a) individuals and parishes not enjoying constant battle and b) the terrible state of ECUSA which departing parishes and individuals do not wish to be a part of. If an Episcopalian chooses to leave ECUSA, even for very good and responsible and conscientious reasons, he has left a united, global body called the Anglican Communion and he has contributed to the decline of an international catholic witness and a further likelihood that that international witness will fracture. One commenter to the Camp Allen article, after announcing that he had left for the Methodist church, told us all to "produce a product" and he would "consider coming back". I think I hear the pain and frustration and anger that he rightly feels about losing something precious to him. But of course, are those who leave the Episcopal church and Anglicanism also people who would like whatever "product" is eventually developed -- and would they make good contributors to that "product" if they returned, since it was not really a worthy enough battle for them to engage in?

Both parties may say "oh you have to break a few eggs in order to make an omelet", in order to "do a new thing", but the choices are stark and terrifying and sad and consequential.

I desperately wish that all of us -- both revisionists and orthodox Episcopalians or Anglicans [whether within or without the communion] -- could cease living in a fantasyland of our own making and acknowledge the clear and striking and terrible consequences of our actions. It does no good to pretend that those consequences really don't exist, or that any moment now, all will be made well, or if you "hold your face right and look at the picture in a certain light and at a certain angle, it really is a pretty picture".

I don't know if he meant to or not, but Matt Kennedy's articles about the speeding husband in the new German car, with the pregnant wife and two children held hostage, are one of the most illustrative stories I have read about the consequences for actions that are facing all of us in the Anglican Communion. The speeding husband will wreck his new German car, and lose his wife and/or children, or lose his license and his wife, even if he does not wreck the car. The wife will be severely injured or die, along with her unborn child, if she stays, or she will leave her husband and abandon her two young children otherwise, perhaps never to be re-united again. And the two young children will lose either their health and lives, or their mother and unborn sibling.

None of the choices are happy choices. And the consequences for each choice are dreadfully, searingly painful. The denial of such consequences for such wrenching choices is a sign of mental illness and dysfunction and sin, and I wish we would all repent of that denial.



5) We all of us have competing hierarchies of values that influence our analysis of events. Those values include a) catholicity, b) unity, c) a global Anglican witness, d) theological reformation, e) evangelism of pagans and seekers, f) evangelism of certain segments of pagans in the US who are attracted to liturgical churches, g) evangelism of Episcopalians h) discipling of Christian believers, I) influence and reform of the culture j) protection of our own families, children in particular, k) protection of our individual parishes and weak or new Christians, l) not allowing the national church to capture property and use it as false advertising for their own non-Christian gospel, m) reform of existing church entities rather than starting anew, n) a horror of division, o) a horror of theological falsity, p) peace [remember that one commenter stated that he had found "peace" when he left ECUSA -- of course, leaving a battle and therefore "finding peace" is a bit different from "winning the peace"], and so on, and so on.

Each of us, interestingly, ranks all of these values, and many, many others on different rungs of the ladder. And any one of them can compete with any other of them. Some who leave ECUSA -- even if they were able to predict with certainty that they would never re-enter a reformed Anglican Communion again -- would still leave. Why? Because they value not being a part of a corrupt denomination more than they value the promised reformed Anglican Communion. Some who stay in ECUSA -- even if they were able to predict with certainty that the Anglican Communion would never discipline ECUSA -- would still stay. Why? Because they value the Communion more than they value being in a reformed denomination. [Note: this example does not include all reasons -- I am merely demonstrating simplistically how the hierarchy of values works sometimes.]

That is why, for instance, I do not believe that Matt Kennedy's analysis of the Camp Allen statement -- flawed though I believe it to be -- is somehow disloyal to the Network. Critique and analysis of perceived flaws in certain strategies and tactics is not disloyalty; it is simply analysis.

That analysis is based, it seems to me, on Matt's "ladder of values" which he has clearly and consistently articulated over the past two years. His analysis of the Camp Allen statement should not be a suprise to anyone, as it is *consistent* [if anyone at all has been listening] with his stated values and purposes and goals.

My bet is that there is not one Roistering Episcopal Adventurers on this blog who would arrange their ladder of values -- or rather "spiderweb" of values, to visualize it more authentically -- in the same way as another.



6) The national church entity known as ECUSA will not be saved. It will not be reformed, under any circumstances [other than evacuation and insertion of a new ECUSA which is not, strictly speaking "reform of ECUSA"].

Of course, whenever someone pronounces a death sentence there are always Christians who will say "Lazarus was resurrected, Ninevah repented, Nebuchadnezzar was converted."

And indeed, miracles do happen. God can breathe life into a body that is deader than stone. God can do the same to an institution. God can do anything that He desires to do.

But once someone begins speaking of miracles -- of fire raining down from heaven and consuming Elijah's sacrifice on the altar in front of the startled servants of Baal, for instance -- one has already admitted that a dramatic, miraculous event needs to occur and that the mere work of humans in time and space will not suffice.

In other words, when the physician enters the waiting room, pulls his mask down, and says to the waiting family "I'm sorry. We did everything that we could do. And he is gone" it is, of course, possible that God will enter the surgical suite and miraculously revive the dead person on the operating table.

But, I am sorry to say that it is unlikely.

And it would be a sign of mental illness for the family to insist that the body remain on the operating table, day after day, week after week, and month after month, waiting on the miracle.

This is where I disagree strongly with one commenter -- with whom I have agreed on other analyses -- when he stated, shockingly, to my mind: "Long-term, this I think gives a real chance for the renewal of the Episcopal Church. We all know what the demographics look like-- where the Gospel is preached, the church thrives; where theo-jargon is preached, the church withers away. We simply need a safe space to continue preaching the Gospel. God will take care of the rest. In time, ECUSA will likely look very different, if we committ ourselves seriously to theological study, mission, raising up young clergy and leadership, and evangelism."

This theory of "outgrowing the heretics" in ECUSA by focusing on our own parishes and dioceses, helping them to grow in the gospel, and then gradually taking over the Episcopal church from within is *precisely* the theory that was touted in writing and orally continuously over the past 30 years. Rectors and bishops would state "I'll just focus on growing my own vineyard in the gospel -- all we need is a safe space to grow".

That has been finally, stunningly, and overwhelmingly proven false. Over the past 30 years of "focusing on our vineyards", the available larger vineyard has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller. Rectors were weeded from their parishes and replaced by apostates. Dioceses were done the same way. And the space for "preaching the gospel" in the Episcopal church continues to shrink.

No -- there is no way that focusing on "preaching the gospel" will reform or renew ECUSA.

Furthermore, here I must turn a bitter and foreboding look at Matt Kennedy who, despite my repeated assertions over the past three years in writing and orally that I did not believe that ECUSA as a national entity would be saved or reformed, had the audacity to postulate that the reason why I did not think that the Camp Allen statement posed any real problems was because I thought that ECUSA could be saved.

I am simply amazed that Matt could state that with a straight face, after all the times that I have stated that I did not believe that ECUSA as a national entity could be saved. [I really am off Matt Kennedy for life -- I withdraw all of the kind things that I have said about him in the past -- I have declared him a mortal enemy for that statement. ; > )]

No -- what I have said and believe fervently is that it is possible to work within ECUSA [not save ECUSA, but *work within*] to salvage, restore, strengthen, and renew parishes and dioceses in preparation for the coming very difficult and challenging decisions that will confront us all, should ECUSA be disciplined. Even in the most revisionist of dioceses, it is possible to stand as a witness within that diocese [the best place for witness is inside an organization, which is why the prophets of Israel were so miserable sometimes], gather allies, grow as a person, and prepare for the future. Indeed, the time that it has taken in the international arena for processes to unfold has been truly God's gift to individuals, parishes, and dioceses which were not, in any way, prepared or strong enough three years ago to do much of anything. That has changed, in large part, and will continue to change, God willing, as the international processes work themselves out.

I need to distinguish again, very clearly, the difference between "working within ECUSA for the renewal of distinct territories that are to be found only with ECUSA" and "saving/reforming the national church". The former is very doable -- I see it happening every day, and receive those encouraging email reports constantly. The other is not doable.

I can see -- with Matt's aspersions about my mind and my consistency of argument -- that I will need to drive this point further into the ground than I have in the past.

So below I am listing just three reasons why ECUSA -- as a national church -- will not be saved, reformed, or "fixed". There are many more -- but here are just three. Please understand -- again -- that recognizing that ECUSA as a national church will not be saved or reformed does NOT mean that whole dioceses and parishes and groups of parishes will not be saved or reformed. It appears that many will be, thanks to the determined and calculated and hard-working efforts of many people, many of whom will never be known or acknowledged. The optimism that one commenter to my Camp Allen article states will be "dimmed" the more involved people get in church politics and the more they recognize the "trajectory of the denomination" has, in my case, been increased as I see how laypeople and clergy in parishes and dioceses, working together, can achieve enormous successes within small portions of the denomination. I say this even as I am well aware that the trajectory of the Episcopal church as a national whole is in steep and hurtling decline.

a) The president of the House of Deputies and the Presiding Bishop appoint most if not all of the positions of power and influence at the national level. These appointments are, in general, raving revisionists of stunningly heretical theology and practice. To put this into perspective, there are eighteen Standing Committees and Commissions in ECUSA, and 121 people appointed to those committees and commissions by the President of the House of Deputies alone this year.

Let us take, just as an example, the Executive Council of the Episcopal church -- the entity charged with essentially running the Episcopal church in between General Conventions.

There are 47 people listed on the roster of the Executive Council. Thinking very very generously, there are *perhaps* seven or eight people with traditional views on sexuality, the authority of scripture, and the saving uniqueness of Jesus.

This ratio is pretty much the way the remainder of the commissions and committees are on the national level -- unless worse, of course.

In part, this is our own fault -- most orthodox/traditional laypeople have declined participation on vestries, diocesan Standing Committees and councils, provincial committees, and on up the ladder for the past several decades. It is hardly surprising that, with the lack of representation on parish, diocesan, regional, and provincial entities by traditional Episcopalians, the revisionists are represented at the top level and the traditional Episcopalians nearly not at all. But more importantly, the revisionists at the topmost level of the church simply don't hang out with traditional Episcopalians. Nor do they wish to. And they certainly do not want them on national church boards, commissions, and committees.

This will not change.

b) Some might trill, optimistically, at this point, that all one needs to do is focus solely on the traditional dioceses growing their own numbers in gospel ministry and mission, send good delegates to the General Convention, and make certain to elect traditionally minded Presiding Bishops and Presidents of the House of Deputies in the coming decades.

;> )

Here is why that will NEVER happen.

Certainly, orthodox dioceses can grow in mission and ministry. And certainly it is true that orthodox dioceses and parishes are now paying attention to whom they elect to go to conventions, both diocesan and general.

But it matters not how large a traditional diocese will grow for this simple stark reason: the votes of the Diocese of Nevada will always be able to cancel out the votes of the Diocese of Texas.

Each diocese, no matter how teensy or humongous, gets eight deputies to General Convention. It is not a *representational* General Convention, like the House of Representatives, for instance, but more like the Senate, where each state gets the same number of senators, no matter the population.

No matter how large and flourishing and vital a diocese is -- the votes of their deputies will be neutralized by the deputies of the Diocese of Newark.

And since, in ECUSA, there are far far more dioceses now like the Diocese of Newark, we will not ever elect a traditional president of the House of Deputies or Presiding Bishop.

Not ever.

Hence, all the national entities -- the instruments of reform of a denomination -- will be owned by the revisionists, now and in the future.


c) As the years roll by -- and this has been true for the past nearly four decades -- individual reformers and representatives of the traditionally minded will leave ECUSA.

It has been true in the past. It will continue into the future. Many of those whom you are seeing and hearing from in ECUSA, standing up and pleading for reform, will not be here one year from now, five years from now, nor 10 years from now.

Some urge that if we steadily work for reform within ECUSA -- grow our parishes and orthodox dioceses -- that in a generation we will reform the national church.

But that prediction presupposes that the traditional leaders who are working and calling out now will be here forty years from now.

They will not be.

In fact, that is one of the signs of a declining organization or entity. When an organization cannot hold on to their great minds and leaders, it is in systemic decline. The slide down the mountain is irreversible -- barring, again, God performing a miracle along the lines of sending our revisionist leaders out into the fields as wild animals, to eat grass, and finally look up at the heavens and acknowledge the one true God, a la Nebuchadnezzar.

This is why, for instance, God asks Abraham to find leaders in the city of Sodom, in order to reveal his intentions toward Sodom. And certainly, within ECUSA, it has been one of the many signs of decline that the traditional leaders leave ECUSA. They will continue to do so, and the minority will continue to get smaller and smaller.

Certainly, many "moderates" and "passive Roistering Episcopal Adventurers" will be awakened. That has happened over the past three years, and also will continue to happen. But as they awaken, others will leave. It is the nature of the decline, and death spiral that ECUSA is experiencing.

Here I must insert a special word to those "moderates" and passive traditionalists who have accidentally stumbled onto this blog and are listening in on our conversations.

I am committed -- as I have stated over and over also -- to remaining within ECUSA as the Anglican Communion slowly determines what to do with us. I do not know what it will decide, though I think one way will lead to renewal for the Communion, and another way will lead to death. But I am inside ECUSA, and I will be inside ECUSA for the forseeable future, until such time as a way is made for the orthodox within the United States to remain within the Anglican Communion or until such time as the Anglican Communion fractures irretrievably. Some commenters have asked how long they should remain within ECUSA and I cannot answer for your conscience. But if your conscience and responsibilities allow for it, then I hope that you will continue working for reform and strengthening within your own parishes and dioceses as long as the international processes for discipline of ECUSA are playing themselves out. Of course, should the orthodox leaders within ECUSA determine that discipline of ECUSA is not going to occur and that the Anglican Communion will fracture, then new decisions will need to be made. But I do not think that they have determined that at all -- I get the sense that our leaders within ECUSA are encouraged about the Anglican Communion establishing order and boundaries within it.

But . . . if you are reading this blog and wondering when the right time is for you to "take an action" or "raise a hand" or connect with others of like mind, or whatever it is you are speculating on doing -- RIGHT NOW would be that right time.

You may be sitting back and watching and thinking "boy, I think like these StandFirm folks do [or ACI, or AAC, or ACN] -- thank God they are out here doing all the work that needs to be done, whatever that is -- when everything gets fixed it sure will be great -- thank goodness they're doing it because I sure wouldn't want to be in the thick of this mess".

If you are thinking that, you need to understand something crucial. It will not always be like this. Reformers come and reformers go. The pleasure that you are experiencing as others work will not last forever, as someday, you will look up and many will be disappearing into the mists ahead of you.

At that point -- that point when everything gets lined up just perfectly for you to maybe think about getting involved in reform efforts within your own parish or diocese -- you will wonder where all of those allies you have been counting on have gone.

There will never be a better time for you to act for reform and renewal within your parish or diocese then right now. Not ever.



Comments:

Sarah,

A wonderful if depressing description of the state(s) of the Communion.  The mostly painful, because it is the most personal, is the one touching on someone who leaves, but may return later of there is a satisfactory product.  One needs to take a realistic look at one’s own skills and aptitudes, the situation in which you find yourself, and the chances of doing nothing but spin your wheels.  For instance, I find myself in a non-ACN diocese with a retiring Windsor bishop.  Due to vigorous political machinations, he will either not be replaced soon due to another hung election, resulting in rule by a firmly Beloved Moderate Standing Committee, or his replacement will be a Beloved Moderate.  My own parish is a very traditional one which I can and have recommended, but it has a militantly Beloved Moderate vestry which would need to have all the primary members replaced to begin something as honest as a simple education program or a parish meeting to discuss the situation.  Because they have been successful in building the church, both people and building, this will not be a high priority with the Beloved Moderate members.  The stated policy of the traditional Beloved Moderates, in private, is to keep on being traditional, and wait for the dust to settle resulting in an Enduring ECUSA, to use +Duncan’s phrase, to be handed to them.  Property intact, of course.

The real question is, can I make a bigger impact staying where I am, or elsewhere?  Over the time scale we are looking at, there is little I can do which would be effective as is.  We can’t all be Sarahs or Matts or Brads.  Working up the influence ladder, especially with people who don’t wish to be influenced that way, is slow and uncertain.  Moving to an ACN parish would make a statement, albeit negligible, but would at least put me in contact with people who are involved and with whom I could work with rather than around.  But ultimately, would it really matter?  Maybe.  Right now, it is looking more likely that a new structure will form from a nucleus completely outside TEC, with ACN and others joining it. 

It is an imperfect analogy, but I am reminded of the old military aviation truism.  You stay with a sick airplane as long as there is a chance of recovering it safely.  However, when that becomes unlikely, it is better to eject and give it back to the taxpayers, rather than ride it into the ground.  That way, at least you survive to fly and fight another day.  By early November, some things will be falling into place.  The future of diocese will be clear, or at least less murky.  Whatever questions there have been about ++Griswold, we will unambiguously have a new PB who is explicitly a neo-pagan, or a liturgical Unitarian, if you wish.  By then, it will be clearer, and more urgent, to decide whether to hit the road, or hit the silk.

[1] Posted by APB on 10-16-2006 at 08:55 AM • top

Wow.  That’s a lot and deep.  Thanks for offering it and your transparency in doing so.  None of us should have been a passive observer to begin with.  There will come a time when even the freedom of this type of communication will be removed from us.

We (the L2) are working on our piece of action.  We currently belong to a “network” diocese under a Windsor bishop.  But have been under Swing and in Little Rock.  We’ve seen the current future and it’s never been of our choosing.  When we were in one not-to-be-named dicoese, the priest told us we didn’t have to worry about THAT here.  And never did they, nor do most even know what’s going on.  I know more that my priest even now. 

My problem is that our circumstances (B is a quadriplegic and J-me is the sole caregiver) limit what we can do.  So, Sarah, Matt, Greg and whoever - what can us little people do?  How do we help turn the tide, even when we face inertia in dioceses that know better?

[2] Posted by The Lakeland Two on 10-16-2006 at 09:10 AM • top

L2,

Many years ago, I was confirmed at All Saints’ in Lakeland.  It was a wonderful place at the time, but then the whole Church was.  As someone who has also been a caregiver, my heart and prayers go out to you both.

Alan

[3] Posted by APB on 10-16-2006 at 09:28 AM • top

I remain an Episcopalian at large, wandering among various church experiences, deriving inspiration from each.  In a blog posting, I have pointed out that the seven or eight dissenting U.S. bishops emphasize that they consider themselves still members of both the Anglican Communion and The (Protestant) Episcopal Church of the U.S.A.  “I mean to fight it out on this line, if it takes all summer,” said U.S. Grant.  It took a year, but he never gave up.  Neither should we.

[4] Posted by profpk on 10-16-2006 at 09:47 AM • top

Good, the Bad and the Ugly
Good –Overall, an excellent analysis.  Specific points:

“-- I am amazed that people can depart ECUSA for another mainline denomination, thus buying a temporary lull in an inevitable battle within the newly chosen denomination and it is my belief that one must truly love a denomination to enter into the battle”. 

Amen! I am particularly amazed at those joining PCUSA. The Methodists are heading in the same direction, albeit slower, and at some point in the next few years its Confessing Movement will have to make some serious decisions.  Same with the Lutherans. Why would anyone voluntarily put themselves in this same position twice?

“I believe that Rowan is desperate for further delay and that delay was the focus, endpoint, and modus operandi from beginning to end, for the past three years.”

Agreed!. But that doesn’t mean that it didn’t make sense to push him toward a decision (see “Bad” below).

“"Orthodox ECUSA rectors announce that their parishes are “growing in mission and ministry” and urge their parishioners to “focus on the gospel” and “not be concerned about national issues”; in effect—become more of a congregationalist. They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within ECUSA.

Right on. Go to the web sites of the larger so called moderate or orthodox parishes in your Diocese and you will see these statements. It’s the “feel good” statement for those in a state of denial.

“I [do] not believe that ECUSA as a national entity will be saved or reformed…”

Agreed. I wonder if anyone really believes it can be reformed anymore.
Bad

“I should note, though, that I have not changed my opinion about the Camp Allen statement.”

Earlier, you said that the AOC’s main goal is to delay. A powerful CA statement would have made it more difficult for him to do so. As Matt pointed out, it was a lost opportunity.

“So I will choose the most discipling, evangelizing, thoughtful, culture engaging congregational church, and submit my services and heart to it. Yet my theology will continue on as an Anglican. That is what I believe and is what I am.”

Don’t speak too soon! Over time, your church may impact your theology, precisely because you are the type of person that commits your heart to whatever church you are in. All the more reason to consider one of the pseudo Anglican parishes you decry:>
Ugly

“In the meantime, clergy and parishes and laypeople who have left ECUSA announce that they are “still in the Anglican Communion. They do this in order to deny the clear consequences of what is happening within the Anglican Communion.”

Why do you say that? These congregations, which have given up millions in assets (or paid millions in ransom), endured broken personal relationships and, in many cases, endured the indignity (for an Episcopalian:>) of worshiping in uncomfortable folding chairs well know “what is happening in the Anglican Communion.” While you disagree that they can legally call themselves members of the Anglican Communion they are doing so with some giants in the Communion, such as Akinola++, Orombi++ and Venable++. I don’t want to restart a legal argument about national provinces, etc., but to suggest they are making the claim out of a sense of denial is wrong and demeans their sacrifice.

“But the vast majority [of departures from ECUSA] have gone to other non-Anglican entities—and that trend will continue, I believe.”

Perhaps Gallup or Barna organizations should give up the scientific polling method and simply count the emails in your inbox! :> Of those leaving due to the lack of orthodoxy, have you added up the congregations that have left as a whole, including Plano, Overland Park, Tallahassee, Birmingham, Montgomery, Atlanta, Raleigh (fill in the blank further in a few weeks?  Plano itself is larger than the Diocese of Nevada, and it certainly went to another Anglican entity. Should we get each of its members to send you an email to change the outcome of your poll?:> I suspect that the congregations that have left have strong internal leadership and are much less likely to be peppering these sites, or your email address, with anguish or pleas for help.
Your repeated assertions that the new Anglican churches arent winning the battle for the hearts and minds of departing Episcopalians reminds me of a Colt fan claiming before Super Bowl III that the AFL jets didn’t deserve to be on the same field with an NFL Colts. 
But overall, great column.

[5] Posted by Going Home on 10-16-2006 at 12:57 PM • top

Timothy,

RE: “Earlier, you said that the AOC’s main goal is to delay. A powerful CA statement would have made it more difficult for him to do so. As Matt pointed out, it was a lost opportunity.”

Sure—and a statement by 19 Global South Primates that they will be leaving the Anglican Communion at the end of November if the ABC has not disciplined ECUSA would have pushed the ABC as well . . . but for some strange reason, no one is bleating about it being a “lost opportunity”.  ; > )

Re: “Don’t speak too soon!”

It has taken me three years to examine closely and to decide where I will go in the event of an Anglican Communion fracture.  I am unlikely to change my mind about that.

Re: “. . . to suggest they are making the claim [that parishes are members of the Anglican Communion when they leave ECUSA] out of a sense of denial is wrong and demeans their sacrifice.”

It in no way “demeans their sacrifice” to tell the truth.  What I said was baldly factual, and acknowledges their sacrifice, as for many, it was extremely painful to decide to leave the Anglican Communion.  To tell the truth is not demeaning, it is merely truthful. 

Re: “Of those leaving due to the lack of orthodoxy, have you added up the congregations that have left as a whole, including Plano, Overland Park, Tallahassee, Birmingham, Montgomery, Atlanta, Raleigh (fill in the blank further in a few weeks?”

Yes, Timothy. I did.  And those who have left for other non-Anglican denominations overwhelm those numbers. 

RE: “Your repeated assertions that the new Anglican churches arent winning the battle for the hearts and minds of departing Episcopalians . . . “

Obviously, they are winning the battle for some hearts and minds, but I do not believe most.  You are, of course, welcome to believe otherwise.

But if you were to come to believe that most people leaving ECUSA are in fact leaving for other non-Anglican entities, Timothy, what would that mean for you?  I made a statement about what I believe to be true, and in the absence of polling data from Barna can only state what I have observed anecdotally and what I *know* about me and my choices for the future.  So why so defensive?  I merely state what I personally have observed and experience.

[6] Posted by Sarah Hey on 10-16-2006 at 01:40 PM • top

Good stuff.  I’m certainly with you in the ‘in, but not of’ argument regarding ECUSA/ACC membership.  What informs me in all this has always been this:

http://theagetocome.wordpress.com/2006/09/13/ichabod/

How that works out is going to be a little different for each person.....

[7] Posted by Peter on 10-16-2006 at 01:41 PM • top

Sarah -
Thank you. This spoke to me directly as I have been struggling the past few months on what I should do inside my othodox church (in a reappraising diocese). As one who *hates* confrontation, I have reached the point (and this article confirms it--praying for discernment leads one to some interesting places!) where I realize that saying little or nothing is no longer an option. Thinking through what I should do and who I should talk to is nerve-wracking for me, but your thoughts have helped me work through what my actions should be.

And, because I have children to consider, depending on the answer over the next few months, we may have to leave for a new Anglican plant in our area.

[8] Posted by Branford on 10-16-2006 at 01:49 PM • top

Thank you, Sarah.  Another fine essay.  I appreciate your statements about hierarchy of values.  I think this is an important piece in the differences among the orthodox, and I would guess any group.  As far as the discipline of ecusa goes, it will soon be who cares time when ecusa has been formally recognized by those who matter to have walked apart.  I am not optimistic that Rowan wants to admit this, but there will come a point when he will either have to acknowledge that ecusa has separated herself from the body or his leadership will be sidelined.

[9] Posted by Tony on 10-16-2006 at 02:30 PM • top

Sarah,
1. Where are the people going (other than your inbox)?
By my quick count if you add up the membership of just the larger of the new Anglican churches (admittedly, not centrally reported, audited numbers) your get in excess of 10,000 former TEC members. If you add the smaller parishes that have been formed since GC2003 I guess AMIA you can probally double that number.  You have information of more than 20,000 people that have left for matters of orthodoxy over the last two years and have gone to other denominations? In any event, perhaps the best comparison is to look at where people went in those communities where there was a viable Anglican alternative. 
2. Anglican Communion Good Housekeeping Seal- “What I said was baldly factual...to tell the truth is not demeaning, it is merely truthful. But Sarah, you didn’t simply make a factual statement, you ascribed a motive to the departing Anglican parishes claim of AC membership “They do this in order to deny...” I contend the parishes are doing this because, along with their GS Bishops and Archbishops they believe it to be true. I also join those Archbishops that proclaim these parishes to be part of their Provinces and, through such Provinces, a member of the AC.  And I am certain that the Bishops in charge of these US parishes (with the possible exception of Minns and the AMIA parishes++) will be invited to Lambeth. Whether they choose to attend is, of course, is a whole other ball of wax, which may depend on what happens in Feb.

[10] Posted by Going Home on 10-16-2006 at 03:23 PM • top

Sarah, forgot to answer what it would mean to me if I were to come to believe that most people leaving ECUSA are in fact leaving for other non-Anglican entities.  If they were going to growing, solidly orthodox denominations or congregational churches I would not be worried, in fact I am happy for them.  If they are going to a so-called mainline denomination, I would be worried.  I would also be worried if they are going to small splinter parishes that are unlikely to address the needs of modern family.
The reason I am concern over the possible loss of an orthodox Anglican presence in the US is because I believe the Anglican church can attract and disciple a segment of our society that might not otherwise develop a deep relationship with our Lord.  I am not at all concerned about other faithful churches filling the void.

[11] Posted by Going Home on 10-16-2006 at 03:38 PM • top

Re: “But Sarah, you didn’t simply make a factual statement, you ascribed a motive . . “

Yes, I did.  Sort of like the motives I ascribed to all the other statements and actions that I listed in that same section.  ; > )

Re: Where are they all going?

Good question.  The common trend that I have noticed all over the US is . . . *large churches with already established programs for youth*.  The denominations that most predominate seem to be 1) non-denominational, contemporary churches [shockingly], 2) PCA, 3) Rome.

In other words, as others have predicted, people deal with the staggering loss of ecclesial discipline in Anglicanism by either 1) adding more hierarchical authority [ROME] or 2) going more congregational.

It’s been a surprise to me—fascinating stuff.

[12] Posted by Sarah Hey on 10-16-2006 at 04:01 PM • top

Thanks Tony, for the kind words.  I am certainly eager to be made optimistic about the Archbishop of Canterbury!  ; > )

But even Matt has not been able to convince me yet . . .

[13] Posted by Sarah Hey on 10-16-2006 at 04:06 PM • top

APB,

I am curious about something that you say: “My own parish is a very traditional one which I can and have recommended, but it has a militantly Beloved Moderate vestry which would need to have all the primary members replaced . . . “

So . . . why not replace them via elections.  ; > )

Curiously,

Sarah

[14] Posted by Sarah Hey on 10-16-2006 at 04:08 PM • top

Dear The Lakeland Two,

First, my hat is off to you that you are interested in being involved, particularly given your challenging situations.  All of us are troubled by our own difficult circumstances—thank you for being so open about what must be challenging.  Blessings to you!

As to what you can do . . . it sounds to me as if you both may spend a lot of time at home [but maybe not].

Why not establish an email newsletter for fellow Episcopalians, first in your parish, then spreading out in your diocese?  You would be shocked at how much people who don’t spend time surfing the web come to rely on the bits of news that people forward them.  And the “forwarding” rate of such emails is quite high—often 3 to 1.  Sometimes much more . . .

I cover in this article here on Strategery 101 how to connect with and meet with those of like mind in your diocese:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/1125/

A number of these ideas may suit your schedule and circumstances . . .

Here are links to the whole series—though I’m working on another addition:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/1185/

[15] Posted by Sarah Hey on 10-16-2006 at 04:15 PM • top

Sarah, I watched my parents, with 10 other people, leave their ECUSA church 20 years ago and found a new “Anglican” church....not officially recognized I guess, but the Truth was preached there.  That church, which I dubbed, “St. Mary’s of the Folding Chairs,” quickly grew and in a few years they had a much larger congregation and a beautiful new sanctuary (with lovely pews).  It is a great church, and has since come under the Anglican Province of America, which about a year ago joined in covenant with the REC and the Church of Nigeria.

I remain in my (new) AAC/ACN church, which is on its own in a big city in a big (non-orthodox) ECUSA diocses.  I used to be very upset about all this, but after much prayer, the Lord has removed my fear and I am waiting with great anticipation to see what will come next and where He wants me (and my family) to be.  The fact is, that at age 47, this mess has taken up the great majority of my life, and it will only be in the middle of my life and maybe the end, that I will be able to be a part of the birth of a stronger communion.....It’s coming......Look at what the Lord is doing in Africa and other parts of the Global South.  It is hard for us as Americans to see others taking the lead, I guess....but perhaps a good experience for us as Christians to be in submission to the Lord and perhaps under the leadership of those we have always seen as followers and not necessarily leaders.

My mother now lives in your city, her hometown, and because she cannot drive, went with a friend to your church for the first year or so she was back...This is her former church from many years ago.  She said the focus of her friends, as “conservative” as they may be, is more on bricks and mortar than theology.....just as my old church was.  That is discouraging...especially when it is a beautiful, big church, full of lovely people.  Keep the faith, Sister Sarah!  (PS.  My mom said everyone she knows at that church LOVES you....."She is SO SMART!!!” I agree!!)

[16] Posted by Liz Forman on 10-16-2006 at 04:55 PM • top

Thank you for the great report, Liz.  I’m not sure that everyone at my church loves me, though . . . ; > )

But I guess that’s okay.

Although the APA is not recognized as a part of the Anglican Communion, I need to say that that does not make them any less Anglican.  Plus, neither the APA nor the REC makes those claims, and probably wouldn’t want to be anyway!!!  Still, the APA and REC are making great strides—it seems to this outsider—in dealing with their own internal challenges.  And certainly no member of ECUSA can feel smug about anyone else, considering our own mess!!!

[17] Posted by Sarah Hey on 10-16-2006 at 05:08 PM • top

Liz, Thanks for your testimony of your journey. I think there is an huge portion of the Anglican Communion that could be a comfortable home for APA and REC if the Holy Spirit wills it. Certainly ECUSA is not presently part of that comfort zone (duh). I pray this turmoil will produce a new definition of the catholic and faithful branch known as Anglican. I even have hopes that that Anglican branch could eventually reunite with the Roman and Orthodox branches - probably not in my time but maybe for my great-grandchilden (that I eagerly hope for soon).

[18] Posted by Gulfstream on 10-16-2006 at 05:20 PM • top

It’s funny.....but Anglican really means little more to be than based out of England at this point.  You could almost call it the English Communion I suppose.  I think we are going to see the Christian Communion be born out of all this, and I am taking my vitamins and exercising so I can stay in good health and be a part of that.  I want my children, grandchildren and so on to have Common Prayer, a Liturgical Worship format...and most of all, personal (scriptural) relationship with their Savior.

Having said that, the Lord has given you, Greg, Matt, Kendall, et al, a much bigger job than I have at this point...and it is discouraging sometimes, I know....but the Joy of the Lord is our strength, and what I joy getting to “know” all of you through the internet !!

[19] Posted by Liz Forman on 10-16-2006 at 05:21 PM • top

Oops!  Typo!  “little more to me than.....” Should be “me” and not “be.” wink

[20] Posted by Liz Forman on 10-16-2006 at 05:22 PM • top

Sarah: Nice analysis of ECUSA/TEC and explanation of your perspective.

One rabbit trail - certainly not essential to your main point - concerns whether the AMiA, in particular, is among those who expect certain individuals/parishes from TEC to join them. 

I attended the last AMiA winter conference last year and was a bit surprised that the focus was on the disconnected/unchurched without reference to ECUSA.  This focus was so strong that I noticed one distressed priest from TEC who was quite concerned that he would not be welcomed / received into the AMiA.

This is not to say that there are not groups out there that do expect what you have described.

Good job!

[21] Posted by tired on 10-16-2006 at 05:32 PM • top

Sarah,

“Why not replace them with elections?” Good question.  First, there is a nominating committee which consists of, well, you can guess who!  However, getting to run really isn’t the problem.  The real reason is that while the parish is traditional, the traditionalists are mostly Beloved Moderates.  To quote a wise theologian, “Beloved Moderates will, in general, depart under no circumstances at all.” Given that they are ok, for now, and have already perhaps moved from a revisionist parish, they are not interrested in change.  Hence the head in the sand approach which pervades everything. 

APB

[22] Posted by APB on 10-16-2006 at 05:41 PM • top

Sarah,

Thanks for the info.  My next stop is the links.  Yes, we are at home almost always.  Currently B’s immune system is very challenged so we don’t get to church very often.  You’ve given us some ideas. 

I’ve felt for years that discussing this should have been done at church...if not in announcements, then an after-service info meeting.  But it has seemed in recent years - let’s not talk about it and it will go away.  One of the reasons I’ve been hitting various sites is that I WANT to know and not be ignorant.  I realize I’m a babe (even at 49!!) and am sitting at the feet of some giants - even if y’all don’t think you are. 

But what I want is what God wants.  And one of our contributions is praying for all of you who are visible, and those not so.  Praying for the Windsor Bishops, and even the other ones.  That God’s voice will be the loudest and not one of His sheep is lost.  Matt’s story about the German car really does point it out.  I’ve felt for so long as the wife.  This whole mess has torn my heart.

I’ve been in great churches that glorify God, have great teaching and worship.  Two of them in this diocese have left.  I’ve seen and KNOW how great our worship of God can be.  Watching it being ripped up and apart is so awful.  But not being able to do anything feels even worse.

To APB:  Not a member of All Saint’s, though I plan on a drop-in some day in the future.  Fr. Jenkins sounds Windsor

To all, thanks for your prayers.  Being in our situation is hard.  But God uses us to reach many people because of our situation - especially in the medical field.  I’ve been told multiple times that we are a powerful witness for God and marriages because of our walk.  I’ve been told several times to divorce B and “get on with my life”.  When we got married, we meant our vows and decided divorce would not be an option.  We chose and never looked back. 

Then I’m asked where we go to church.  That’s not too hard until I get to the “Episcopal” part.  So you can see where I’m coming from!!!!!!

Keep the faith and know that each of you is bringing light into darkness.  We may not all agree on every point, but I think it’s healthy that we are examining ourselves and our church.

[23] Posted by The Lakeland Two on 10-16-2006 at 07:06 PM • top

Well, let me tell you about an election that had nothing to do with any of this.. Just a power grab by the senior Warden (for his own reasons I guess).. I was nominated for membership on the vestry, and no one seemed to object.  I also found a candidate that would make a great candidate.  I sought the advice of the Priest, he was delighted,and approved, I asked the person if he would accept, he agreed (and was indeed honored), and turned the name in to the committee.

At the congregational meeting, the names of candidates was read, but this person was not named.  Since there could be nominations from the floor, I asked about my candidate.. Oh, said the Sr. Warden, yes there’s XXXXX. I knew he had not forgotten, just tried to pull a fast one. So finally my candidate was included, and he and I got the majority of the votes. 
A month later, the Sr. Warden resigned (probably a good thing, now that I think about it), but he had been pushing a candidate , and had tried to rig the election so that there were only TWO nominations for two seats. I don’t guess he ever forgave me.

This long story has nothing to to with reappraiser/reasserter issues, but indeed is indicative of how difficult it is to get good people elected when someone in “power’ wants it otherwise.

Blessings,
Grannie Gloria

[24] Posted by Grandmother on 10-16-2006 at 07:08 PM • top

Answer to tired:
I am part of an AMIA church begun by former Episcopalians who left their former churches because of the increasing apostasy of ECUSA. We now have members from 12 of the 13 Episcopal churches in the city. We also have members who are ex-Roman Catholics, ex-Presbyterians, and ex-Adventists. I myself am an ex-Baptist. We came to Anglicanism, rather than fleeing it. I did not get to attend Winter Conference but I can tell you that the focus you noted was consciously intended to avoid having the AMIA get bogged down in the continuing disintegration of ECUSA. We are a mission, not just a fragment of ECUSA. We want to move on and not be mesmerized by its death throes. Sarah is right-it is dying and there is absolutely no chance of saving it. Therefore, we say “Let it go” and are moving on. Having said that, I can assure you that we welcome all the Episcopal refugees we can get! We need strong, experienced believers. Most of the AMIA churches were either started by or have many former Episcopal members. Your priest need not be distressed, he would be welcome. We are growing so fast that we need good priests badly. Actually, I remember hearing that the AMIA’s credentialing department is backed up with applications from former Episcopal priests. We are working as fast as we can! It takes time, as, with so many apostate Episcopal clergy wandering around, we have to insure that the clergy we accept are in fact orthodox. We do not want to repeat the mistakes that have destroyed ECUSA.

A general comment.
The AMIA is a mission of and under the jurisdiction of the Archbishop of Rwanda. Unles the Rwandan Church has suddenly been thrown out of the communion, I do not see how you can say that we are not part of the Anglican Communion? We do not deny that the Communion is in grave danger, we hope to be at least a part of the remedy.
The communion may well split. It certainly cannot continue as a house divided. In that event, everyone, Worthy Opponents, Beloved Moderates and Roistering Episcopal Adventurers, will have to decide where they will stand. Yes, many will go elsewhere, I think more out of sheer disgust than anything-and will find the same battle they left raging in their new place. The continual delay, delay, delay is a prime cause of this falling away. It would appear, however, that the delay may be drawing to a close. The conservative Global South primates are finally pushing the Archbishop of Canterbury into a position where he will have to act, like it or not. It should not be too hard to figure out what he will eventually do-he will go the way that keeps as much of the communion together as possible, rather than be pushed aside as an irrelevancy, even though it will probably split the Church of England, even though it may stick in his throat to do it. He will, of course, drag his heels as long as possible, but I do not think he will be able to do so much longer. The communion will eventually purge itself of apostasy, even though it may leave behind a fragment that calls itself Anglican, though it is not. ECUSA will be expelled, and eventually (maybe sooner than anyone thinks) a new Anglican province in the US will be born to replace it. I believe most of the orthodox fragments will eventually unite in it, once it is officially recognised as part of the communion. Certainly, the fragments that have come under the authority of other Anglican primates will do so. A leaner but stronger Anglican Communion will emerge from all this, but it will wear a different look than its previous one. It will be no longer dominated by the English church, but become a truly world-wide communion.
God will, once again, bring good out of evil.

cannyscot

[25] Posted by cannyscot on 10-16-2006 at 07:41 PM • top

Hi Cannyscot,

When the AMiA was formed, the then Archbishop of Canterbury did not recognize the new bishops as bishops of the Anglican Communion.  Recognition by Canterbury is integral to the current definition of the Anglican Communion, though certainly some would like for that to change.  I believe that the ABC did not recognize those bishops because he was still functioning under the Lambeth resolutions [1988, 1998] that state that there will—typically—only be one representative entity within a geographic region that is recognized as a member entity of the Anglican Communion.  That entity within the US is ECUSA.

Here are the two communications from the ABC—2000, 2001—that refer to all of this:
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/carey/releases/000217.htm
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/carey/releases/010619.htm

I suppose if those bishops are invited to Lambeth as participant bishops, then we will know that the current ABC has changed the policy.

It should be noted that most people in AMiA care not a whit about any of this!  ; > )

[26] Posted by Sarah Hey on 10-16-2006 at 08:47 PM • top

Your point #2 is the best argument for a split now rather than later and the rational behind our “Worthy Opponent’s” desire for more dialogue (read delay).  If we “dialogue” much longer there will be too few left to depart in the critical mass required to survive as a church entity.  I think that is why ++Duncan and ++Iker are done with meetings and ready for action.

[27] Posted by Edwin on 10-16-2006 at 09:32 PM • top

Sarah,

Doesn’t your understanding of being “in” communion with Canterbury conflict with the implicit assumption of dromantine: that cross jurisdictional relationships are permitted so long as they are initiated by a parish? The ABC himself was party to this decision which, at the very least, challenges the idea that there can ONLY be one episcopal authority per area. Our current circumstances may, in fact, not be ideal, but the parishes involved in the sort of cross border relationships between parishes and provinces permitted by Dromantine do have communion standing. Unless, you too would like to ignore the DC?

[28] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-17-2006 at 02:43 AM • top

I realize this is mildly off topic, however my husband has repeatedly asked about the English bishops refusing to educate/consecrate the priests after the revolution in America.  He and I are interested in understanding the parallel and divergent paths in regard to modern interpretations of consecrations (legal episcopate) and the Anglican communion.  Is there a parallel here?

Thanks,
Elizabeth

[29] Posted by returned on 10-17-2006 at 05:06 AM • top

Re: “Sarah,

Doesn’t your understanding of being “in” communion with Canterbury conflict with the implicit assumption of dromantine: that cross jurisdictional relationships are permitted so long as they are initiated by a parish?”

No.

Dromantine states that bishops *will* move into other regions, if asked.  It says precisely zero about whether such non-geographic relationships mean that parishes or regions are in communion with Canterbury.  Creating such relationships will not force the ABC’s hand in creating another province, Matt, as much as people would like for it to do.  Which is why, of course, people would like the Kigali statement to be implemented—so that such a province may be created.

Unless you, too, would like to be in denial about consequences of actions.  ; > )

[30] Posted by Sarah Hey on 10-17-2006 at 06:15 AM • top

Dromantine states that bishops *will* move into other regions, if asked.  It says precisely zero about whether such non-geographic relationships mean that parishes or regions are in communion with Canterbury.”

So, the ABC’s signed recognition of such relationships and at the very least, his refusal to delegitimize them, means nothing with regard to their communion status?

Do you at least recognise that he has decidedly NOT done what ++Carey did with regard to the AMiA consecrations. ++Carey went out of his way to delegitimize them.

The ABC has at least tacitly approved the relationships currently enjoyed by those parishes in the 7th.

Do you see any difference between the two cases with regard to communion status? and if so, would you be willing to articultate that difference?

I would argue the opposite.