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The Bible: Open to as Many Interpretations as there are Interpreters?

Thursday, September 21, 2006 • 9:59 am

The bible means what the reader wants the bible to mean so there is no real point in arguing doctrinal matters by appeal to the scriptural text. If you tell me that homosexual behavior is wrong and then appeal to Romans 1:18-32 as a proof text, I can simply say: well, that’s your interpretation, that’s your understanding of the text utterly contingent upon your perception and your cultural/historical prejudices. And not only that, the text itself is utterly contingent upon the ever varied cultural/historical prejudices of the writer. It is simply a production arising from the personal perceptions and experiences of an ancient follower of God.


There are several bits of conventional “wisdom” with regard to reading and understanding the bible that generally make me want to pull my hair out. In the past, I’ve addressed many of them: the meaning of the word “literal,” the question of inerrancy/infallibility, and the nature of biblical authority in orthodox Anglicanism. This morning I’m turning to address following often-heard assertion:

“The bible is open to as many interpretations as there are interpreters.”

Those who say this generally mean either that:

1. The true meaning of the biblical text is difficult to attain, virtually indiscernible to the average reader. Moreover, in the process of interpretation the reader inevitably imposes his or her own meaning onto the text leading to further confusion and distortion.

Or

2. There is no “true meaning” that inheres in an absolute sense to the text itself. Rather true meaning arises from within the hermeneutical conversation that takes place between the contemporary reader and the ancient writer. Thus, “meaning” is always in flux. It makes no sense, from within this understanding of hermeneutics, to speak of “the meaning” of the text. There are only “meanings” and they are contingent upon the historical and cultural context of the interpreter.

The first meaning of the assertion generally comes from orthodox believers seeking to safeguard what they understand to be the primary place of the Church in biblical interpretation. They come generally from an anglo-catholic or Roman Catholic background. The point is not that the scriptures cannot be interpreted by individual readers but that that the Church is the best or the only correct interpreter of the scriptures.

I have dealt with this point in the article “Is Sola Scriptura Anglican?” While it is certainly true that no individual interpreter should read and interpret the bible in a vacuum and that the classic interpretation of given passages ought to always be given primary deference and respect, the Church can err. She is not an “infallible interpreter.”

But more to the point, the myriad of interpretations that do in fact exist does not mean that the bible is “open” to a myriad of interpretations any more than any other book. The bible was written by human beings who were divinely inspired and equipped to communicate with other human beings. The bible is thus no more difficult (and no less) to understand than any other work of literature.

It is intended to communicate content and it does. The same principles or rules of reading and interpreting that you apply to secular literature apply also to the scriptures. If it is possible for someone with a high-school education or less to read and understand the essentials of “Great Expectations” without an English Lit professor sitting by, it is certainly possible to read and understand the essentials of the “Gospel of Matthew” without a priest or a bishop.

Of course a professor (like a priest, bishop, or commentary) will help bring out the true depth and richness of the text and correct any misunderstandings, but so long as the high-school reader applies basic literary principles to the text, he or she should be able to come out with a basic and essentially accurate reading of the text.

No book is a “wax nose”. There is a meaning to all literature and that meaning is discernable to the average reader who applies the proper literary principles.

This does not in any way negate the need for the Church or tradition as the primary referent in understanding the bible but it does mean that individuals are able to read and understand the bible in an accurate way.

Why then do we see the myriad of sometimes whacked out interpretations? This problem stems from a basic failure to apply basic literary principles to the biblical text. For some reason, and this is unfortunately widespread in the evangelical world, when people read their bibles they read them in ways that they would never read any other book. They pull passages out of context and give them meanings that the text simply cannot support and apply them to situations that have no similarity to the situation they originally addressed. The book, “The Prayer of Jabez,” and the ensuing evangelical craze, is one recent and widespread example of this sort of decontextualized misapplication of God’s Word.

The second meaning of the assertion almost always comes from revisionists who embrace a radically pessimistic epistemology (the word “epistemology” refers to the question of the capacity, or lack thereof, of human perception to recognize and understand reality as it is in itself). Christian revisionism, which winds its way back to Schleiermacher and, ultimately, to Immanuel Kant, is thoroughly skeptical with regard to our ability to “know”, in an absolute sense, much of anything beyond the self and the experiences of the self.

Thus, the revisionist who appeals to the variety of individual interpretations is generally arguing for the subjective or contingent nature of the text. The bible means what the reader wants the bible to mean so there is no real point in arguing doctrinal matters by appeal to the scriptural text. If you tell me that homosexual behavior is wrong and then appeal to Romans 1:18-32 as a proof text, I can simply say: well, that’s your interpretation, that’s your understanding of the text utterly contingent upon your perception and your cultural/historical prejudices. And not only that, the text itself is utterly contingent upon the ever varied cultural/historical prejudices of the writer. It is simply a production arising from the personal perceptions and experiences of an ancient follower of God.
This is not to say everything is utterly relative. While perception beyond the self is suspect, the revisionist would say that personal experience does provide a somewhat tangible, albeit unstable, grounding for faith. Shared experience of a collective body can create an even more certain ground. If you wonder at the revisionist pairing of love for liturgical togetherness and table-fellowship with theological heterodoxy, wonder no more.

Truth, to the extent that we can know it, can only be found in the shared experiences of the risen Christ within the community of faith. That experience will always be changing because the body always changes. Thus, to the revisionist mind, to apply ancient texts in a prescriptive or proscriptive way to contemporary circumstances is absurd. 

Ironically both the revisionist use of the phrase “there are as many interpretations of the bible as there are interpreters” and the orthodox use outlined above tend to erode any confidence an individual may have in his or her own reading of the biblical text.

How far both of these arguments are from the sentiments of St. Augustine who praised the scriptures, writing that the biblical text is like the ocean: shallow enough for a small child to enjoy the waves lapping up on the seashore and yet so deep that even the strongest swimmer cannot plumb its depths. In other words, even the simple or uneducated reader can understand the basic or plain sense of the scriptures and yet the most learned scholar cannot grasp the fullness of their meaning.

The core problem with any assertion that the bible is unknowable to the individual, whether it is made by a revisionist or an orthodox believer, is that the assertion itself is ultimately self-defeating.

As I argued above, though inspired and superintended by God, the bible, like every other book, was written by human writers and those writers intended to communicate specific content. There is then no reason to set the bible aside in some special category. If the bible is indecipherable, unknowable, and/or meaningless, then all literature, all speech, is equally indecipherable, unknowable and/or meaningless.

In fact to say, “The bible is open to as many interpretations as there are interpreters” would itself be indecipherable, unknowable and/or meaningless.

The argument that the bible is open to as many interpretations as there are interpreters is ultimately a deconstructionist argument.

The one who makes it consciously or unconsciously undermines the process of communication itself.

Before my anglo-catholic readers object to strenuously to what I have written above, let me say that I know the argument from the catholic perspective is not that the bible is indecipherable to the individual reader. Rather, the argument from the anglo-catholic/Catholic perspective is that while the individual may come close to a valid or true reading, only the Church can provide the true reading in its fullness and authority. And, of course, this is a valid argument.

The (first) problem however, is that it necessarily wrests the meaning of the text away from its primary location, the intent of the author, and places it with the Church. To do this you must trust implicitly in the infallibility of the Church (as Rome does) and deny, despite appearances, that there has ever been a time when the official interpretation/teaching of the Church has ever been at odds with the teaching of the scriptures. Anglicans confess that the Church has erred and will continue to fall into error and for that reason we must continue to return to the text itself as individuals, as parishes, and as a Communion and test all things, even classic interpretations, in light of the truth revealed there.

The second problem is epistemological. If only the Church, through her teaching office, can provide an authoritative reading of the biblical text because all individual readings are at least to some extent unreliable, then there is no reason to expect the individual to be any better at understanding the teaching of the Church than he or she is at understanding the bible.

Who will authoritatively interpret the Church’s authoritative interpretation?

This point was driven home to me the other day while watching the Eternal Word Television Network, the Roman Catholic cable channel created by the remarkable Mother Angelica.

There is currently a fascinating teaching series running on EWTN led by Fr. Corapi (a fantastic preacher by the way). The series is a section by section study of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Fr. Corapi leads the series like a protestant evangelical would lead a bible study, examining the text and helping his hearers come to a deeper understanding of the intent of the Church.

Apparently, the Catechism is just as “open” to misinterpretation as the bible. Thank goodness for priests like Fr. Corapi. But then Fr. Corapi’s teaching will no doubt be misunderstood. Who will help us to understand Fr. Corapi’s teaching on the Teachings about the Word?

If words carry specific content and meaning, then the words of the bible carry just as much specific content and meaning as any other book. The core and essential meaning of the bible is understandable to even to those with the most rudimentary reading skills so long as the normative literary principles that apply to every other book are applied. This in no way negates the primary need for the teaching function of the Church, but it does mean that the individual believer has direct access to the Word of God and that not all individual interpretations are valid interpretations.

The text itself provides the measure for all interpretive efforts, even those of the Church.


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Comments:

“If the bible is indecipherable, unknowable, and/or meaningless, then all books, all speech, is equally indecipherable, unknowable and/or meaningless.”
Sounds like a Gnostic nirvanah to me! tongue laugh

[1] Posted by DeeBee on 09-21-2006 at 09:39 AM • top

Thank you, thank you, and thank you for clearly and persuasively arguing against postmodern interpretations of the Bible.  I will refer parishioners to this article in the future.
As an anglo-catholic, I disagree with some of your points but minor conflicts are okay as long as we agree on the big issues.

[2] Posted by m+ on 09-21-2006 at 10:01 AM • top

This is a brilliant, much-needed, and mercifully brief piece, Matt+; thanks. 
My only comment is sociological.  Most of the people I've heard say,<i>“The bible is open to as many interpretations as there are interpreters”</i>  really mean "The bible isn't telling me what I want to hear, so I'll pretend it does."  Their statement is thus not actually open to rational refutation…

[3] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 09-21-2006 at 10:31 AM • top

<p><em>While it is certainly true that no individual interpreter should read and interpret the bible in a vacuum and that the classic interpretation of given passages ought to always be given primary deference and respect, the Church can err. She is not an “infallible interpreter.”</em> 

Mainly  as a matter of curiosity, Matt, I'd be interested in hearing from you about what you make of the claim by the Roman Catholic Church that it is indeed infallible on matters of doctrine, which, given the length of that Church's catechism, would include the answers a great number of questions about the interpretation of particular passages of scripture.  The Roman Catholic Church claims that it has never embraced heresy as a Church.  Are there interpretations of Scripture that have been made by the Roman Church that you would consider heretical?  Are there ways that Orthodox Anglican interpretation of Scripture differs from Catholic interpretation, where those differences may not involve a controversy so deep as to lead to a charge of heresy, but are nonetheless important enough that they cannot be dismissed as adiaphora?  </p>These are not trick questions or latent traps.  I’m just interested in what you think about  them. 
 

[4] Posted by Rick H. on 09-21-2006 at 10:33 AM • top

<p>Rick that is a good question and one which I am loath to answer because it could open a can of worms that has recently been closed on titusonenine and elsewhere. </p>I believe that Anglicanism is rooted in distinctly protestant/reformed theology. The 39 articles reflect this rootedness quite clearly. Of course the catholic face of Anglicanism is to be embraced as well, but in doctrinal matters Anglican teaching as articulated in the articles and the prayerbook (not necessarily the 79) seems to be decidedly protestant. Sola Fide, Sola scriptura etc…</p><p>And it is precisely on those doctrinal points, sola fide and sola scriptura, that I would say, yes, Rome has erred. </p>I would also suggest that on some more minor matters, the sinlessness of Mary etc. the Roman Church teaches and commands to be believed things that, at the very least, cannot be proved by an appeal to the bible and in fact some would say contradict the explicit teaching found there…ie Romans 3:10-18 as compared with Mary's sinlessness.
But what I love and embrace about my Roman and anglo-catholic brothers and sisters is their willingness to be obedient to what they consider divine authority and revelation as mediated through the Church.

[5] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-21-2006 at 11:33 AM • top

Fr. Kennedy, when you write "Church," do you mean the institutional Church, or do you mean the company of all the faithful?  It would appear that the interpretation of all the faithful, together, exercised over time, and with deference to the early interpreters, would more likely ring true, than would that of an individual reading in isolation.  Whether the institution of the Church always gets it right is open to serious debate , of course (else we wouldn't be in our current crisis in ECUSA).
I guess the real question is:  how does the individual believer react when he believes the Church, or the ecclesiastical authority or grouping above him, is in error?  One path would seem to lead to division coupled with truth held by some factions, while the other path would seem to lead to unity coupled with truth held by some constituent parts. 
 

[6] Posted by Rick Killough on 09-21-2006 at 11:58 AM • top

Rick,

As I wrote in the main article, I do think that as a general rule the individual should defer to the teaching of the church. Nevertheless, there are rare times when the teaching of the Church, and here I am speaking generally of the visible institution not of the Universal body of believers, is in error.

Athanasius and Luther lived during such times and our own articles acknowledge that they do come:

THE Church hath power to decree rites or ceremonies and authority in controversies of faith; and yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain anything contrary to God's word written, neither may it so expound one place of scripture, that it be repugnant to another. Wherefore, although the Church be a witness and a keeper of Holy Writ: yet, as it ought not to decree anything against the same, so besides the same ought it not to enforce anything to be believed for necessity of salvation.

XXI. Of the authority of General Councils. GENERAL Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of princes. And when they be gathered together, forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and word of God, they may err and sometime have erred, even in things pertaining to God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of Holy scripture.

But there is an objective measure to determine if a teaching is clearly in error and that, again, is found in the text itself and by applying basic literary principles to it in order to determine the intent of the author.

If, for example, the institutional Church were to deny the divinity of the Son, an individual could test this denial in light of the clear teaching of John 1 and prove this denial incorrect.

[7] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-21-2006 at 12:12 PM • top

I bow to your judgment, Matt, that it is unwise to open up this argument on this blog.  But it is nevertheless interesting to me that the Catholic Church teaches its 1.1 billion members that the Church can indeed be the single authoritative interpreter of Scripture (or at least of its important passages).  Apart from the Marian aspects of Catholic theology, I often wonder just how far apart the theology of Orthodox Anglicans and the theology of the Roman Catholic Church really are.  I know that the Anglican Tradition embraces (sort of) sola scriptura, but I really don't see how its position is so fundamentally different in practice from the Catholic Church's stated reliance on Scripture and Church Tradition as providing a deposit of faith for all believers to turn to.  And, as for sola fide,  I read recently in the New American Bible (approved by the Catholic Conference of Bishops) the famous passage in James 2, and it said something close to this:  "Faith without works is lifeless," a statement I think a lot of Protestants could buy, in the sense that if we truly have a living faith, it will on its own compel us to do good works, and in the sense that Jesus told his disciples in John 14 that he who does not obey His commandments does not love Him.  So I'm just not sure where the disagreement lies.      

[8] Posted by Rick H. on 09-21-2006 at 12:27 PM • top

Rick,
I think Romans and evangelicals could come to an agreement on the translation of James 2 easily enough. What would be more difficult would be coming to an agreement about the way James 2 fits in with Romans 3-4 and other passages.
For Rome, faith and grace infused works together constitute the grounds of a believer's ultimate justification (baptism being the moment of original justification).
For evangelicals it is faith alone through which the righteous work of Christ is credited externally to the believer and the believer's sin is credited or imputed to Christ on the cross. In this way, a believer is both originally and ultimately justified through the conduit of faith alone.
Both would agree that works necessarily flow from true saving faith, but Romans would argue that those works constitute part of the grounds of justification. Evangelicals would argue that if this is true, then no man can be justified.

[9] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-21-2006 at 12:34 PM • top

I would comment on Fr. Kennedy’s essay, but the meaning of the essay is so indeterminate and the meaning of my comment would be so indeterminate that it wouldn’t be worth the trouble. wink

[10] Posted by John B on 09-21-2006 at 12:35 PM • top

Why is everyone writing in italics all of a sudden?
the snarkster

[11] Posted by the snarkster on 09-21-2006 at 01:04 PM • top

Snarkster,
Would you prefer 'Roman'?
 RK

[12] Posted by Rick Killough on 09-21-2006 at 01:06 PM • top

Matt,
As you know, we both have a deep fondness and respect for Rev. Begg.  I’m sure all would agree that would be a protestant approach to scripture.

He constantly stresses and teaches that scripture must first be interpreted by scripture.  Keeping that forefront in my study has been most beneficial.

[13] Posted by Gayle on 09-21-2006 at 02:41 PM • top

I agree. Scripture does indeed interpret scripture. But to say that the Church is the primary referent in interpretation does not overthrow this principle. For example. If I am reading a text and applying the principle that scripture interprets scripture and come to a given conclusion, I’ll still want to check that conclusion against the interpretations of trusted teachers (Alistair Begg for example) in the past who have also used the same principles in coming to their conclusions. So, when I say primary referent, I do not at all mean primary to the text itself.

[14] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-21-2006 at 02:52 PM • top

Pt 1.  “For Rome, faith and grace infused works together constitute the grounds of a believer’s ultimate justification (baptism being the moment of original justification).” 

Matt, I’m not sure it is entirely true that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that faith and grace infused works are the grounds of justification. Peter J. Kreeft’s book, “Catholic Christianity,” which is more or less a beginner’s exposition of the Catholic Catechism (widely used by Catholic parish priests for teaching RCIA classes, which initiate adult converts to the Church, and published by Ignatius Press, a Catholic outfit founded by the conservative Jesuit, Fr. Joseph Fessio, SJ) says this about the differences in what Protestants believe and what Catholics believe about justification: 

“Most Protestants, following Luther, believe that faith alone is sufficient for salvation.  The Catholic Church, following the New Testament (Mt 25; Jas 2) teaches that good works are also required.  This was the single most important issue of the Protestant Reformation, the single most tragic division in the history of the church.

“But both Protestants and Catholics are beginning to see that their two apparently contradictory positions may have been saying the same essential thing in different words, words that seemed contradictory but perhaps were not.  Returning to the common data—Scripture—reveals that both keywords, ‘faith’ and ‘salvation’, are used in two senses: sometimes mroe narrowly and sometimes more broadly:

          *    *    *

“Scripture . . . uses ‘salvation’ in two senses, broad and narrow.  Salvation in the broad sense includes sanctification, being-made-saintly, being-made-holy; and this is a process that requires not faith alone but also good works.  Salvation in the narrower sense means just being accepted by God, or justified, forgiven for sin, being in a state of grace.  Catholics agree with Protestants that in this narrower sense of salvation we can be saved by faith alone—that is, by faith in the broader sense, faith as a choice of the will, not just a belief of the intellect.  Faith is what lets the life of God into our soul.  The thief on the cross (Lk 23: 33-43) had no time for good works, but he was saved by his faith.

“To summarize, then,

“a.  we are neither justified (forgiven) nor sanctified (made holy) by intellectual faith alone (belief);

“b.  we ARE justified by will-faith, or heart-faith alone;

“c.  but this faith will necessarily produce good works,

“d.  and we are not sanctified by faith alone in either sense, but only by faith plus good works.

          *    *    *

“Protestants can remind us of an . . . important truth that we often forget:  that we are not saved by good works alone; that we cannot buy our way into heaven with ‘enough’ good deeds; that none of us can deserve heaven; and therefore if we were to die tonight and meet God, and God were to ask us why he should let us into heaven, if we are Christians our answer should not begin with the word ‘I’ but with the word ‘Christ.’”

Or, take these excerpts from the Catechism itself (numbers refer to paragraph numbers in the Catechism): 

“1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. ‘Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.’”

“1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or ‘justice’) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.”

“1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life.”

“1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.”

The Catechism may be perused at length at
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1994

[15] Posted by Rick H. on 09-21-2006 at 07:48 PM • top

Pt. 2.  You may have gathered that I have been studying the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.  One of the things that has interested me is the tendency by both Protestants and Catholics misunderstand each other’s doctrine, which has led, in all innocence, to some unfortunate misrepresentations.  For example, I recently read something by a Catholic author that said something to this effect:  “Protestants don’t believe that Mary is the Mother of God.”  Well, yes and no.  Evangelical Protestants certainly believe that Jesus was physically born to Mary, that Mary was a virgin when He was born, and that Jesus and God are of the same substance.  Jesus has a mother; that mother is the Virgin Mary; Jesus is God; so in that sense we do believe that Mary is the mother of God.  We don’t believe that God the Father has a parent, but Catholics don’t believe that either.  Catholics and Protestants alike accept Mary as someone who is very special, although we Protestants don’t refer to her as the Queen of Heaven nor do we revere her to the same degree that most Catholics do.

And I think this sola fide thing is entirely overblown, particularly insofar as it convinces orthodox Episcopalians and Anglicans that Roman Catholics have it entirely wrong.  What in the world have we been arguing with the revisionists about if not whether Christian life entails submitting our wills and our lives over to the commandments of God rather than to our own notions of civil rights and fairness?  If obedience to Scripture—works—is unimportant, we just need to quite complaining about the revisionists in our church.

It seems to me that our differences, real as they may be, are not nearly as significant as most Catholics and Protestants have been led to believe.  And I say this not as a suggestion to orthodox Episcopalians to swim the Tiber en masse, but rather just to point out that I think we have very good friends in our Christian brothers and sisters in Rome and we have much to offer one another.

[16] Posted by Rick H. on 09-21-2006 at 07:52 PM • top

Rick OP,

I am familiar with most of this material and have had this debate many many times. The long and short of it is that Kreeft (whom I respect a great deal) is flat out wrong. The Reformed/Catholic divide with regard to sola fide is as strong as it has ever been. There have been some semantic confusions ironed out, but, in fact, all this has done is clarify how far apart the two sides really are.

The problem, again, is the grounding of justification (ultimate). For Reformed thinkers it is grounded wholly and completely in the righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer through the conduit of faith (a surrender of the will that follows cognitive assent).

Romans insist that justifying righteousness is infused and therefore ultimate justification is a cooperative work.

Yes both sides agree that saving faith necessarily results in works. But both continue to disagree about how those works contribure to your ultimate justification.

IF you want to read more about this see this famous t19 thread:
http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=14605#comments

[17] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-21-2006 at 08:02 PM • top

“And I think this sola fide thing is entirely overblown, particularly insofar as it convinces orthodox Episcopalians and Anglicans that Roman Catholics have it entirely wrong.”

Not overblown at all, it is a salvific matter. It is far far more important than anything that seperates protestants from one another. IT is worth dying for. I’m not exagerating.

[18] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-21-2006 at 08:04 PM • top

Agree with Matt.  There is a reason why, despite the greenness of the current fields of Roman Catholicism, and despite the fact that I—a sheep—have taken note of those green fields across the fence, I have not converted to Rome.

Nor will I, unless something rather astounding happens to my brain.

I simply do not agree with their theology on some very important matters.

[19] Posted by Sarah on 09-21-2006 at 08:38 PM • top

I didn’t mean to imply that sola fide as a doctrine is overblown.  I am saying however, that the purported differences beween Rome and Anglicans over sola fide appear to me to be overblown. 

Matt, you say Kreeft has it flat out wrong, but he is being widely taught and studied in the U.S. Catholic Church today, and he is published by a very conservative Catholic publishing house which holds him out to Catholics and to potential Catholics as an accurate teacher of Catholic doctrine.  You say that Roman Catholics teach that we are saved by faith and works; Kreeft explicitly says that we are given justification entirely through will-faith, or heart-faith, alone, although works do contribute to our walk toward sainthood.  Are you saying that he is misrepresenting Roman Catholic Doctrine?  I promise you I am quoting him accurately.

And there is still the actual Catechism of the Catholic Church: 

“Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.”

“Our justification comes from the grace of God.” 

“Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.”         

Even with respect to the infusion of works, the teaching is pretty clear that it results from rather than leads to justification:

“With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.” 

I cut and pasted these quotes out of the online version of the Catholic Catechism. Where exactly does it say that works are a necessary prerequisite to salvation?  Where do Kreeft and the catechism differ?

And, coming at it from the other side, it is not as if orthodox Anglicans don’t insist that obedience to God’s commands as revealed in Scripture is pretty critical for true Christians, as is also true for all good Roman Catholics.

So where is our difference that is worth dying for?

[20] Posted by Rick H. on 09-21-2006 at 09:09 PM • top

Matt,
Two points:  (1) I have read your debates on the issue of sole scriptura multiple times now and notice that in making your case you rely on a Calvinist understanding of justification as the Reformed position. While you certainly describe what the Reformers taught and also describe well a still current strand of Reformed thought, I wonder if the understanding that justification results from our subjective faith is still the consensus of the top Pauline scholars.  Dr. Richard Hays (Duke) and Dr. NT Wright are emphatic on this point.  Hays proved in his dissertation at Yale in the 80’s and in subsequent writings that pistis christou refers to the “faithfulness of Christ” and not our “faith in Christ.”  NT Wright made a similar point in “What Paul Really Said” and in subsequent books (most recently his “Paul”).  Justification has nothing to do with our will, but rather the faithfulness of the Christ on the Cross, according to these prominent scholars.  I believe Barth, certainly a great Reformed thinker, anticipated them on this point. That is not to say that there is not a place for our subjective faith in Christ in the description of what we call salvation; Hays and Wright simply make the point that our subjective faith has nothing to do with justification.  Our decision to accept our acceptance by God in spite of our unacceptability (what you call (“a surrender of the will that follows cognitive assent”) might better be described in terms of sanctifying grace or some other way of speaking about salvation. The renown Anglican evangelist Michael Green describes this simply in terms of two doors leading to our salvation.  Christ alone already opened the first door.  That’s what Hays and Wright call justification, as I understand them. The second door we must open by accepting the grace of the Cross - that is the first step in the journey of sanctification.  That journey involves committed participation in a community of faith pledged to Christ as Lord, a community shaped by faith in Christ’s act of redemptive (justifying grace) on the Cross and hope in the promise of the resurrection.  It is at that community, I suggest, that your discussion of the authority of Scripture belongs. That leads to my second point.

(2) You seem to embrace a foundationalist hermeneutic that seeks to fight liberal protestantism on its own Enlightenment terms. If I am wrong in that, please forgive my error. I perceive that you are saying that there is only one meaning in Scripture, that Scripture is not polyvalent. That is of course a very common view, shared by many evangelists (which is how I describe myself). The problem with that view is that it assumes that the role of the Holy Spirit is exclusively in the writing and not the hearing of Scripture - Scripture is seen as static and monovalent, and there is little role for the Holy Spirit to play from generation to generation in guiding our understanding.  But it is not necessary to embrace that hermeneutic to defend against the revisionists.  Rather, we can embrace the richness and polyvalence of God’s continuing revelation through Scripture, as attested by the Holy Spirit; we eschew private judgment, instead insisting that the truth in Scripture is found in our unity when Scripture is read communally. You hear that view from Ephraim Radner and ABC often, methinks.  The community of faith (broadly understood) is, in a sense, the magisterium. As I appreciate it, “the Anglican way” of seeking authority in Scripture is to read it communally in mutual subjection to one another. That “way” precludes a decision like ECUSA’s on sexuality, and perhaps even challenges the manner of ECUSA’s movement towards ordination of women (but not CoE’s), because, in both cases, ECUSA refused to await a conciliar understanding of Scripture’s Word to us, but instead acted on some other authority than Scripture (rationalism).


That’s where the sole scriptura critique of ECUSAns arises. It seems to me that is the point at which we really see “two churches and two faiths” sharing (currently) the Episcopal name. For we believe that Scripture is the revelation by God by which the commmunity of faith, to which disciples subject themselves, learns who it is and who we are and what it means for us corporately and individually to follow Christ.  To borrow from Kevin Van Hoozer, we believe that faithfulness to Jesus Christ is found in the life of one who lives with Scripture as the authoritative script that determines his or her part in God’s drama.  They don’t.  And that’s why our differences are irreconcilable.

[21] Posted by Craig Uffman on 09-21-2006 at 10:56 PM • top

One clarifying addition:  when I refer to the community of faith who reads Scripture together, I assume that includes the saints who went before us.  That is, regula fidei is presupposed.

[22] Posted by Craig Uffman on 09-21-2006 at 11:14 PM • top

Rick OP,

No, as I said I think Kreeft is a fantastic scholar and I would not hazard to question his catholicism. I would question his grasp of Reformed theology. It is a misunderstanding of protestantism and the protestant doctrine of justification which allows him to sugges the affinity he does. The faith he describes as Saving, includes works as part of the grounds of salvation. Again. The problem is with his point C in the schema you reproduced in your first reference to him. Works form NO part of our justification (original and ultimate) according to the Reformers, and I think, according to the NT. For Roman Catholics, it certainly does. Works and faith are seen as part of the same process of ultimate justification.

[23] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-22-2006 at 03:07 AM • top

Craig,
” I wonder if the understanding that justification results from our subjective faith is still the consensus of the top Pauline scholars.  Dr. Richard Hays (Duke) and Dr. NT Wright are emphatic on this point.  Hays proved in his dissertation at Yale in the 80’s and in subsequent writings that pistis christou refers to the “faithfulness of Christ” and not our “faith in Christ.” NT Wright made a similar point in “What Paul Really Said” and in subsequent books (most recently his “Paul”). “

I am quite familiar with the NPP that NT Wright and others present and have read “What Paul Really Said” about 5 times, but I think “proved” is far too strong a word to apply. It is in fact still hotly debated. Check out The Rev. Dr. Sinclair Furgeson’s remarks here:

http://www.reformation21.org/Reformation_21_Blog/Reformation_21_Blog/58/vobId__1085/pm__114/

2. ON the multivalence question. No. I think you are reading me wrong. This article specifically deals with the finding meaning in the text. It does not at all negate the possibility that God speaks through the text to the community. I embrace the idea that God continues to speak through the scriptures, but hearing his voice and applying it today cannot be done without first understanding the meaning of the text. Moreover, the second voice, the application, must flow out of and be consistent with the objective textual meaning. The text is the measure of our applications, not the other way around. This process is what the Prayer of Jabez confuses.

[24] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-22-2006 at 03:17 AM • top

Rick, I am very familiar wiht the Catechism and the sections you quote actually demonstrate our differences very well. Please read the T19 thread I posted earlier and then and please pick up a primer on reformed theology. You are making a number of categorty confusions with regard to causality that at the moment I do not have the time to disentangle. Rome and the Reformers never disagreed about the material cause of justification (the rperson and work of Christ) or that justification was by grace alone. They disagreed about the instrumental and formal causes and that disagreement still stands. Maybe this afternoon I can come back to this.

[25] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-22-2006 at 03:52 AM • top

Craig and Rick,

It looks like I will have time this evening. I would like to address both of your posts more thoroughly but I have a mens breakfast/bible study in about 20 minutes and then I have to write my sermon…

[26] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-22-2006 at 04:04 AM • top

Thank you, Matt. I will appreciate your help with this.

[27] Posted by Rick H. on 09-22-2006 at 04:46 AM • top

Matt, Thanks for the clarification on the multivalence question.  Sounds like we share a hermeneutical discipline after all. By the way,  my discussion of a “magisterium” (for lack of a better word) is not meant to rebut your point about accessibility of Scripture to individuals, which i take as given. Rather, it presumes that being in Christ means participation in a particular community of faith, and it aimed at the problem of how that community understands what it means to follow Christ as Lord together. And note that I am locating authority NOT in the hierarchy, as Rome does, but in the community, as Yoder, Haeurwas, Rowan Williams, and Radner all seem to do.

With regard to the justification question, I don’t deny that a debate remains; I do however suggest that the consensus in Pauline studies has shifted heavily in favor of Richard Hays.  If you are open to considering the evidence, I believe it is Hays’ works, as Wright himself attests in “Paul,” that makes the case so compellingly.  I believe the groundbreaking text is:  Hays, Richard B. The Faith of Jesus Christ : the Narrative Substructure of Galatians 3:1-4:11. 2nd ed. Grand Rapids, Mich.Dearborn, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans ;Dove Booksellers, 2002.  See also:  Hays, Richard B. The Conversion of the Imagination : Paul as Interpreter of Israel’s Scripture. Grand Rapids, Mich.: William B. Eerdmans, 2005.  You might as well master Hays’ arguments even if you disagree, because you will soon have a significant number of Hays’ trained priests serving alongside you as conservative and/or evangelical Anglicans!

Moreover, if Hays’ persuades you, as I have no doubt he will, you may find yourself examining how you think and speak about baptism.

[28] Posted by Craig Uffman on 09-22-2006 at 05:27 AM • top

Rick, O.P. quotes Peter Kreeft:
““Most Protestants, following Luther, believe that faith alone is sufficient for salvation. “
I have never known of even a minimally competent Lutheran or Calvinist theologian who taught such a thing.  (I will not speak of the Arminians.)  In fact John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress has a character who argues such a view against Christian and Hopeful.  That character’s name is Ignorance.  The statement should be amended to say “Most Protestants, following Luther, Calvin, and the English Reformers, believe that salvation is by grace alone, apprehended by faith alone, manifested by newness of life.”

The essential difference (which is critical to the Gospel message) between Rome and the Reformation is that while Rome telescopes justification and sanctification into a lifelong frust- rating and miserable process, the Reformation grasped that justification is a forensic degree issued “now!” to those who by faith are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).  Sanctification, of course, is the process which follows that once-for-all decree.

In a recent debate on T19, I challenged the RC spokesman to supply a single Biblical text which clearly speaks of justification as a process.  He did not answer my question.

btw, I share Fr Kennedy’s enthusiasm for EWTN and for Fr Corapi.  Everytime I watch or listen to EWTN, I pray fervently that someone, somehow, will produce the same ministry for orthodox Anglicanism.

[29] Posted by Laurence K Wells on 09-22-2006 at 05:32 AM • top

In a recent debate on T19, I challenged the RC spokesman to supply a single Biblical text which clearly speaks of justification as a process.  He did not answer my question.

Yes, but it’s also important to recognize that justification by faith is not a one-time event in my past as the born again Christians construe it.  Rather, I am a sinner everyday and so everyday need to be justified by faith.

[30] Posted by William Witt on 09-22-2006 at 05:40 AM • top

“I am a sinner everyday and so everyday need to be justified by faith.”

Me too.  And your point is well taken.

[31] Posted by Laurence K Wells on 09-22-2006 at 05:55 AM • top

Matt,
I agree with you that the witness of Scripture stands apart even from any subjective human opinion or experience. But, even the most orthodox of Christian believers might disagree concerning the precise interpretation of parts of the Scripture. That’s part of the reason that we even have different Christian denominations or some of these controversies in the church relating to the role and ordination of women, for instance.

I think this is different than just dismissing or even twisting the Scripture to mean “anything we want it to mean.”  (I understand that alot of times this view can be used as a means to negate the witness of the word of God, or even to justify unbelief.)

But, personally, part of the reason I do not believe the lst. chapter of Romans is speaking of people who are constitutionally gay, and who love the Lord is because Paul refers to these people who already gave up the knowledge of God, and who were practicing idolotry. I know that some scholars believe he may have even been thinking of the cultic worship of Aphrodite which is thought to have involved an exchange of gender roles among lustful worshippers who were persumably heterosexual , and engaging in ritualistic sex.

I know that we can’t be completely certain of this, and everyone does not agree, but surely a difference of opinion in this matter is very different than just arbitrarily interpreting the Scripture to mean anything we want it to mean.

[32] Posted by Grace17033 on 09-23-2006 at 05:19 PM • top

I think one of the problems here is that the point of my article is that the effect of the communique puts the Windsor bishops in a position of asking for far less than Kigali proposes they need. I believe this is true and it worries me that despite the good intentions of the Network bishops involved, Camp Allen will prove detrimental.

About good intentions. I do not at all question the motives or intentions of the Network bishops. Never have. I do think that trying to broaden the orthodox coalition carries the corollary danger of weakening the thrust of the orthodox witness. This is not the first time I have argued this. In fact I had a lengthy back and forth debate online with Dr. Radner of the ACI about this very topic not too long ago.

I may be wrong. I don’t think I am and I think the strength, or rather the lack of strength, in the statement bears this out.

I have no doubt that each one of our Network bishops is filled with the Holy Spirit, faithful, and ready to do whatever it takes to bring people and the whole church into line with the gospel.

That is, no doubt, why they were at Camp Allen in the first place.

Again, it is the effect of the statement not the motives I question. Even when I thought all of them had seen Kigali, I never thought they were intentionally compromising their faith. I thought they were doing what they thought best for the orthodox cause in America. It’s just that I thought, and think, the statement does not support the primates communique. I still do.

[33] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-25-2006 at 02:51 AM • top

oops, wrong thread

[34] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-25-2006 at 02:52 AM • top

I am late to this discussion, but I have tried to read everyone’s comments, and I have just a few things to say to several of you.

Matt,

Great initial post. Thanks for writing it. I think one sound polemical device is to stray clear of the heady assault and simply ask our liberal interlocutors a simple question: If the Bible is indeed fraught with peril in that it is rife with presuppositions we cannot ever fully divine, and that meaning is rooted in the Sitz-im-leben to such a degree that we grope in the dark for sundry certainties, why is that we are in doubt only about matters that generally pertain to sexuality? Why is that we do not announce, when Jesus says that we should love our neighbors, that we cannot really ascertain his meaning; that we can’t be sure of what he meant here because his idea of ‘love’, ‘our’ and ‘neighbor’ are really unique to him? How is it we do not doubt we should pray, or feed the hungry, or clothe the poor? Surely these prescriptions are wildly ambiguous; surely we cannot be sure of what these things mean.  Should I really turn the other cheek; should I love my enemy; should I really not judge others?

It strikes me as being just so convenient how certain we are about some things, even absolutely certain, when we are yet so hesitant about other things that seem equally certain. And as for relativism assailing the Church, as some suggest, that simply is not true. All that is happening is one set of absolutes is supplanting another.

Sarah Hey is nearly certain she will not accept Roman Catholicism. I ask her one simple question (this question has personally haunted me): Has Jesus Christ himself told you not to be a Roman Catholic? Of course, I know he has not told you to do lots of things; but this is a pretty close-to-the-heart sort of thing we’re talking about. Has he so spoken?

Regarding the discussion about Peter Kreeft. Kreeft, as some of you know, earned his B.A. at Calvin College, which places him fairly deep in the reformed tradition. I can assure you he knows that tradition quite well; he was one of my professors. Moreover, what I think Kreeft is referring to is a rather recent and very real phenomenon: lots of evangelicals (Kreeft was undeniably an evangelical) have converted to the RC Church; names like Tom Howard (another one of my profs/friends), Scott Hahn, even Neuhaus, represent those who are shaping much of the current RC/Evangelical/Reformed dialogue. As such, they are more apt to see continuity between RC and Reformed religious language than those who have not made such a pilgrimage. I believe that when Kreeft says that there are many religious who are now wondering whether RC and Reformed language (re: sola fide) are not quite as divergent as once thought, he speaks as one of those many scholars who speak—eloquently—in both tongues.

Craig Ulfmann says something that makes me cringe; this is an admission of my personal weakness, and is no slight of him at all. He says re: hermeneutics:

<i>The problem with that view is that it assumes that the role of the Holy Spirit is exclusively in the writing and not the hearing of scripture - Scripture is seen as static and monovalent, and there is little role for the Holy Spirit to play from generation to generation in guiding our understanding.</i>

What stumps me is this idea that God writes a text which He then understands for me. It is as if the Spirit writes a passage so He can later interpret it for Himself, and I merely listen in. It seems a problematic model. It is almost as if the model is this: God talks to God.

I have long been amused by those who believe in the strictly narrow idea that salvation is solely by faith. For they seem to ignore Jesus’ constant remarks: Go do this, go sell that, go to the water, go to the priest, go to the altar, go to the judge, DO not tell anyone. In nearly every instant in which Jesus encounters any person, he tells them that they have to do something. “Your faith has made you whole” is said to a woman who sought him out and reached for his garment: she HAS to touch Him. The Centurion’s faith is not rewarded in abstraction: his faith is proven by his doing something. The only person I can think of who is granted an “easy pass” is the thief on the cross; so quickly is he promised eternal life. But he first has to endure death without complaint; even without LOSING his faith while he bleeds out, naked, in the waning Jerusalem sunshine.

L.K. Wells seems ready to conclude that there is no answer to his question, “Where does it say in the Bible that justification is a process?” To his query I pose this question, “Exactly when were the disciples saved?” If salvation is NOT a process, surely there is some sort of passage that shows us ONE person being “justified” in a single instant with no “works” at all. When were the disciples “born again”?

Great stuff, all! Peace!

[35] Posted by Bill Gnade on 09-28-2006 at 08:34 PM • top

(Because I have had trouble italicizing part of the previous comment, please permit me to repost that part which deals with Mr. Ulfmann’s observation. I think the quote, and my point, are confusing otherwise. Apologies. Does anyone else find that italics don’t consistently work here?)

Craig Ulfmann says something that makes me cringe; this is an admission of my personal weakness, and is no slight of him at all. He says re: hermeneutics:

“The problem with that view is that it assumes that the role of the Holy Spirit is exclusively in the writing and not the hearing of scripture - Scripture is seen as static and monovalent, and there is little role for the Holy Spirit to play from generation to generation in guiding our understanding.”

What stumps me is this idea that God writes a text which He then understands for me. It is as if the Spirit writes a passage so He can later interpret it for Himself, and I merely listen in. It seems a problematic model. It is almost as if the model is this: God talks to God.

I have long been amused by those who believe in the strictly narrow idea that salvation is solely by faith. For they seem to ignore Jesus’ constant remarks: Go do this, go sell that, go to the water, go to the priest, go to the altar, go to the judge, DO not tell anyone. In nearly every instant in which Jesus encounters any person, he tells them that they have to do something. “Your faith has made you whole” is said to a woman who sought him out and reached for his garment: she HAS to touch Him. The Centurion’s faith is not rewarded in abstraction: his faith is proven by his doing something. The only person I can think of who is granted an “easy pass” is the thief on the cross; so quickly is he promised eternal life. But he first has to endure death without complaint; even without LOSING his faith while he bleeds out, naked, in the waning Jerusalem sunshine.

L.K. Wells seems ready to conclude that there is no answer to his question, “Where does it say in the Bible that justification is a process?” To his query I pose this question, “Exactly when were the disciples saved?” If salvation is NOT a process, surely there is some sort of passage that shows us ONE person being “justified” in a single instant with no “works” at all. When were the disciples “born again”?

Great stuff, all! Peace!

[36] Posted by Bill Gnade on 09-28-2006 at 08:44 PM • top

Bill,
I was surprised to read that my remark on hermeneutics affected you physically.  Parishioners usually just fall asleep, so it’s nice to know I’m progressing.  Of course, I usually aim at the heart and not the gut….

Perhaps the problem is clumsy wording on my part, or perhaps we have simply been indoctrinated into different ways of approaching the art of reading Scripture, in which case the real test would be to see if, when reading Scripture together, we reached substantively different conclusions about the meaning of the text.  I doubt we would be that far apart on most readings.

My comment that you found provocative had in mind a lesson that we learn from the German Orthodoxy movement that sought to secure the gains of Luther by reducing Scripture to creedal statements that the laity could memorize.  German Orthodoxy relegated the Spirit to an objective role in which divine inspiration gave Scripture an objective and timeless meaning, so that doctrine extracted from Scripture can be reduced to inspired and objective creedal confessions.  The danger of Orthodox movements is the tempation to reduce faith effectively to ‘assent’ to dogma.  It seems reasonable to remind ourselves of that now.

I am a recovering Methodist, so I presuppose in good Wesleyan fashion that the Spirit is present when two or more gather in Christ’s name to study Scripture, creating meaning in the moment, dynamically uniting believers with Christ in order to transform their lives. Whereas Orthodox movements are tempted to process and dispense systematized, sterilized dogma, objectively managing the grace of God in its effort to free faith of error, the Wesleyan tradition in which I was reared historically denies that faith is objective, and offers the counterclaim that fruitful faith requires existential participation of the believer in the object of faith. Faith is an act of union with the Christ through the mediation of the Spirit, particularly in the encounter of the believer with Scripture, that results in genuine worship and enables us to “shed love abroad.”  So the pneumatology I’ve been taught assumes, as I believe both Luther and Calvin said, that it is only through the mediation of the Holy Spirit that we are able to hear the Word found in Scripture.

I understand your perplexity regarding the model you suggest of “God talking to God.”  That is a great mystery to me, too. But I am comfortable recognizing it as mystery.  As far as the intercession of the Holy Spirit in the hearing of the Word, perhaps I ought to leave that an open question for others to consider.  I’d love to hear what other readers of Stand Firm have to say about that premise. Perhaps there is a diversity of beliefs on this question and I was wrong to assume I was making an ‘orthodox’ statement. Does the Holy Spirit intercede between preacher and congregation when the Word is preached?  Does the Holy Spirit intercede when we pray the God-inspired psalms with sighs too deep for words, as Bonhoeffer suggests?  When two or more gather in Christ’s name and read Scripture, does the Holy Spirit have a role in that moment?  And what do we make of the Son praying to the Father? grin

[37] Posted by Craig Uffman on 09-28-2006 at 09:59 PM • top

Dear Craig Uffman,

I see I misspelled your name, several times. Forgive me.

There is no danger here of you being unorthodox. I am the heretic on this point, I suspect. I simply find that I get a bit weary (see, it IS all about my own constitution) when I try to pin down what exactly is happening when a reader of the Bible discerns the Word of God therein. If it is a mystery then perhaps we should leave it as such. But too often this sort of mystery becomes a lesson in epistemological and pneumatological mechanics. 

I am wondering if we can accept that it is possible for the devil to understand the plain meaning of Scripture without assistance from the Holy Spirit. I’ve long been under the impression that non-believers get the plain meaning of the gospel and the Word of God all too clearly; yet they reject, not the meaning, not even the value, of that gospel and word, they just refuse to act in salvific faith. Real disobedience can only come when one rejects what one genuinely understands; and there is nothing about genuine understanding that guarantees obedience.

Of course, now I am wandering into the very sort of mechanical discussion I believe too often leads to frustration.

Yes, yes. Of course the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with “groans too deep for words.” But what always surprises me is how quickly certain theologians try to put those groans into clear and distinct propositions. If such intercession is too deep for words, well then, perhaps it is.

Thanks for your thoughtful and patient reply, Craig.

Blessings to you,

Bill

[38] Posted by Bill Gnade on 09-29-2006 at 05:08 AM • top

If you have been waiting for me to reply to questions or comments directed toward me on this thread, I do plan to come back to it. As you might imagine, events overtook my plans last week…

[39] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-29-2006 at 06:24 AM • top

Bill,
The point you express so well is consistent with a long line of thinking in the evangelical tradition in America beginning near the end of the 18th century. It’s certainly a long honored thread in the Baptist and Methodist traditions.  If I understand you correctly, you are echoing their skepticism of scholarly pretensions in the encounter of person with Scripture.  “Why do I need a hermeneutic?  If the ‘plain sense’ of Scripture is accessible to all, then why do I need some kind of special lens?  Aren’t we introducing something that shapes our understanding in ways that allow us to avoid the ‘plain sense’ of the Word that might challenge our behaviors?”  I think that is a very important question we must ask each other, which is one of the reasons I now tend to emphasize the need of reading Scripture communally and have a bias in favor of subjecting ourselves to the communal understanding. That commitment to mutual subjection and to a habit of communally (conciliarly) discerning the will of God, I think, is part of what we mean when, in our creeds, we profess our faith in the holy catholic church. Thanks!

[40] Posted by Craig Uffman on 09-29-2006 at 06:31 AM • top

Bill,

I’m not so certain that all unbelievers really understand the gospel, and just deliberately choose to reject it. I Know before I came to faith in Christ, I really did not understand or percieve the depth of my own sin nature, and how that this seperated me from a holy God. I basically thought I was just this good, sincere person who if God was real could just kind of work her way into Heaven, based on my own good intentions and religious beliefs and practices. Looking back, even though I was actually in the institutional church, at the time, I think I did not really see the reality of the atonement of Christ at all, and what He could actually mean in my life.

I remember when I came to faith, how the liturgy of the church just took all this whole different meaning. Before, I was just reciting these words almost by rote. And, then suddenly everything came alive, and I thought, “Oh my God, Jesus died for me!!”

[41] Posted by Grace17033 on 09-29-2006 at 07:16 AM • top

What a beautiful witness, Grace!  That is my story, too.  I know well the joy you felt, the sudden sense that God had grasped you, and the realization of life within. I think “New Birth” is an apt description of that blessed moment.  What amazing grace!  Thank you.

[42] Posted by Craig Uffman on 09-29-2006 at 07:23 AM • top

Grace makes a good point that perfectly dovetails into the discussion between Craig and Bill.  Of course, we can understand the words written in the Bible without the Holy Spirit.  Just as I can understand words written in a novel or a cereal box.  What I can’t fathom without the intrepretation and conviction of the Holy Spirit is their meaning in my Christian walk.  Much like Grace, I knew many of the words in the Bible during my teen and early adult years.  There were nice but certainly not binding (especially on me).  A nice historic table of how things USE to be or apply to those really bad sinners.  I read them through the lens of the world.  Sure they tugged at my heart -but so did the dance floor and Saturday night parties.  It wasn’t until I finally realized that it really WASN’T about me - that there really had to be more to it that this - that my heart became open to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  And as the Bible says, the words were more open but still as milk to a baby.  It continually amazes me how a Scripture I have read a thousand times before will suddenly take on new life - as if God has truly removed another veil from the picture.
And Grace, the problem you experienced before opening your eyes is why we are fighting this battle in the Episcopal Church. 

I really did not understand or percieve the depth of my own sin nature, and how that this seperated me from a holy God. I basically thought I was just this good, sincere person who if God was real could just kind of work her way into Heaven, based on my own good intentions and religious beliefs and practices.

All too many pastors are telling those in their charge that what you describe as empty and lacking in relatonship is, in fact, the real deal.

[43] Posted by JackieB on 09-29-2006 at 08:47 AM • top

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