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To Come Unto Me

Wednesday, February 1, 2006 • 4:00 am

Like it or not, if you are an Episcopalian, you now belong to a church that officially opposes any restriction of abortion. Rick Harris on ECUSA's new definition of inclusiveness.


By Rick Harris, O.P.
Stand Firm Alabama

Many who support recent innovations in the Episcopal Church do so on the ground that our church should strive to be more inclusive. But what precisely, does it mean to be an inclusive church? A recent devotional reading from Forward Day by Day advanced the reappraising vision:

Many prefer the path of conforming their lives to the Christ of faith and to the catholic doctrine and practices of the church. Some choose other ways, their spiritual journey marked by a different perspective, some even pushing the edges of accepted faith and practice. The church needs both witnesses--needs all--the staunch defenders and the prophetic voices that may, at times, make us uncomfortable.

The church faces heartache and schism only when sides emerge, when people refuse to respect and honor those with a differing understanding of the truth of the Gospel. Are you open to listening to someone with a different point of view? Can we agree at times to disagree, yet still love one another, and remain faithful to our Lord?
Forward Day by Day, January 25, 2006.

The answer to the final question is, of course we CAN. We CAN agree to disagree. We CAN still love one another. We CAN still remain faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ. But that, unfortunately, is not the question presented to the Episcopal Church today. The question we are asked is this: while we are agreeing to disagree, how shall we behave toward one another and remain faithful to the Lord in the midst of our argument?

Or to frame the same question in more topical terms: when there are large numbers of church members on both sides of a divisive question, and both sides concede that the views of the other result from faithfully held Christian belief, under what circumstances ought one side claim the right to answer the question on behalf of the church as a whole? How a Church answers that question speaks to all of us about how it defines inclusivity. Recently, the ECUSA Executive Council clearly told us that in its inclusivity our church does not make any room for a pro-life point of view. With respect to the emotionally-charged issue of abortion, the Episcopal Church categorically rejects any viewpoint other than unfettered support for abortion on demand. At its January 9-12 meeting in des Moines, Iowa, the Executive Committee formally made the Episcopal Church a member of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, a group that works against abortion restrictions and opposes the confirmation of Judge Samuel Alito.

According to The Living Church The Episcopal Church Center joined the organization "on behalf" of the Episcopal Church in 1986, despite a 1978 vote by the Executive Council to decline such membership because the organization’s position is inconsistent with positions taken by earlier General Conventions. Not satisfied with the ambiguity this situation created, the Executive Committee saw a clear need to take sides.

George Vanderstar, a member of the Executive Council, claimed that the church’s position on abortion is, "Unequivocal opposition to any federal or state legislation that would interfere with a woman's right to make a decision on terminating a pregnancy." The ECUSA web page for Women’s Ministries ("Working for gender justice in the Church & the World") characterizes our membership this way: "While our members are religiously and theologically diverse, they are unified in the commitment to preserve reproductive choice as a basic part of religious liberty."

Thus, if you are an Episcopalian, you now belong to a church that officially opposes any legislation to limit or restrict the availability of abortions, an organization that believes the right to an abortion is equivalent to the right to worship God. The same organization that calls itself "inclusive" because it proudly has individuals involved in sexual relationships outside of marriage among its clergy and Episcopate has formally renounced the views of those whose religious beliefs and consciences require them to oppose the unrestricted availability of abortions. The message of the Executive Committee, indeed, the message of the Episcopal Church, to its pro-life members is simple: we dismiss your beliefs as being utterly without theological merit. We give you no credit for the faith behind your beliefs. Our big tent has no room for your point of view. You and your money are welcome here, but if you give an unrestricted pledge to your parish, some part of your treasure will be used to advance our point of view. We are going to represent to the world that our part of the Body of Christ believes that women should be free to have an abortion whenever they choose. "Inclusive" means that we speak for you.

Having followed the activities of the Episcopal Church for the past few years, I suppose this kind of arrogance from our top leadership should not have taken me by surprise. After all, some of our leaders have called consecrating a gay bishop a "prophetic" action. Some have characterized as "poaching" the willingness of Southern Cone Anglican provinces to provide oversight to departing members of American parishes, as if those dissatisfied parishioners were game animals living on a hunting preserve owned by their ECUSA bishops. But to have taken such an action six months before the upcoming general convention, to have flatly defined the position of the church in a way that is clearly offensive to so many of its members, to have jettisoned any attempt to accommodate those with other views - well, it just takes my breath away.

For many years, there have been pro-life and pro-choice organizations in the Episcopal church. They existed together, if not in harmony, then at least without the need to see one another’s existence as a need to leave, or necessarily to reform, the church as a whole. They were able to respect one another’s faith. They agreed to disagree. But this was apparently unsatisfactory to the Executive Committee, which determined that the church must take sides and declare that one side is wrong and the other is right. This is the action of an Executive Committee that is hell-bent on imposing its will on the church with no possibility whatever of compromise.

Ironically, at the same time the news was breaking in the Anglican blogosphere about this Executive Committee action, Jan Nunley, a national spokesperson for the Episcopal Church, got into a heated blog discussion with Stand Firm’s Greg Griffith about the unarguable fact that ECUSA’s membership is declining. After first insisting that ECUSA is not shrinking, she then offered an explanation for the phenomenom: "[T]he sectors we attract historically--white, affluent--don't have big families. Result? *Numbers go down.*"

Note the implications. How do we grow a church? By evangelizing and bringing people to Jesus Christ? Well, not exactly. Actually we can only grow if our existing members have children. Apparently, the expected usual path to the Episcopal Church is to inherit one’s membership. Our church is meant to be for rich upper class Caucasians who practice birth control, not those indigent minorities with lots of kids. So the fact we are shrinking, even the fact that we are shrinking at a faster rate than any other mainline Protestant denomination, is no cause for alarm.

So here, unveiled, is the grand liberal strategy to double ECUSA’s membership by the year 2020. We tell our gospel-believing, evangelical-minded members that we have adopted a new theology, encompassing ideas that are vastly superior to ancient notions of sin and repentance. Those notions (gasp!) make our members feel guilty and unworthy and reduce their self-esteem and keep them from self-actualizing. We eschew any need to actually make new disciples for Jesus Christ by such worn-out and tired methods as proclaiming a Gospel of salvation to unbelievers. We add new Episcopalians mostly when our female members become pregnant, but only when they exercise their God-given right to choose whether to have their babies. (Heaven forfend that we should tell them it is wrong to kill their unborn children, even if those children might be future Episcopalians!) At the same time, we will vigorously court that vast untapped reservoir of homosexual Christians who are just aching to find a church home but don’t feel welcome elsewhere, even though, with the exception of a few adopters and a few more in vitro fertilizers, those recruits are biologically certain not to bring new children into our church.

The leaders of ECUSA have definitively proclaimed the meaning of inclusivity, and it is an "inclusivity" that brooks no opposition and tolerates no dissent. The term, "inclusive," includes you and me only to the extent that the Church as a whole speaks with a single, revisionist voice. I wish I could say I have a brilliant strategy to turn this situation around, but I cannot. Certainly those of you who are concerned about having been unwillingly drafted into the pro-choice movement should write to your rectors and bishops, run for the vestry, talk to the people on your vestry, and talk to your diocesan convention delegates. If you are giving an unrestricted pledge to your parish, and your parish is using part of your money to support the diocese and the national church, consider whether this is good stewardship of the funds God has given you.

We do however have one powerful tool at our disposal. We can pray. We can pray for mercy for our church leaders and for all of us. We can pray for repentance. We can pray for God’s intervention. We can pray for a miracle.
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Comments:

Great article Rick.

ECUSA heirarchy to the orthodox: We do what we want, you agree to disagree.

[1] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 02-01-2006 at 06:43 AM • top

This is a worthy question, Rick: “while we are agreeing to disagree, how shall we behave toward one another and remain faithful to the Lord in the midst of our argument?”  I submit we all will find the answer in the depth and weight of “hospitality.”  Let me explain.

The Church is the Body of Christ.  His unique body, created in supreme grace, was broken for us and became the new Temple and Torah, which we join through our baptism.  In this way we have a new life in a new place. We are therefore guests, no more and no less.  It is a great priviledge and a great responsibility.  And there are house rules.  One of them is: do not judge the other guests, God handles that part.  Another one is: God has left the management to us (!!!), understanding that He has demonstrated how to behave. 

So having reminded ourselves of such hospitality, we behave with Christlike steadiness, forebearance and patience.  This does not mean we never take a stand or forget the house rules.  It does mean we walk humbly together, and treat all with respect.  For example: VGR’s minions kicked in the door 3 years ago and seem content to slouch around with their dirty boots up on the tables.  This needs a cold stare and an adult response.  A poke in the eye would be counterproductive. 

Another example: an Anglican Archbishop comes to my city and declares that I am apostate and my theology is dead wrong, knowing nothing about me.  That needs some help too.

Sometimes I think the real problem is that at the heights of our religious organization—way up there where you would think they would understand best about the temple and what supports it—they have forgotten what hospitality really is.

[2] Posted by terebinth on 02-01-2006 at 09:33 AM • top

Powerfully put sir.

Perhaps this is a semantic quibble, but: “both sides concede that the views of the other result from faithfully held Christian belief”

I cannot that a “pro-choice” position can RESULT from faithfully held Christian beleif.  I will concede that the two are not mutually exclusive—one can hold a pro-choice position AND be a faithful Christian, but if your position is going to be the RESULT of your Christian faith, there can be only one choice:  Pro-Life.

[3] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 02-01-2006 at 09:58 AM • top

Terebinth,

You wrote, “For example: VGR’s minions kicked in the door 3 years ago and seem content to slouch around with their dirty boots up on the tables.”

I find a problem with that statement. 

VGR’s minions did not kick in the door by any means.  They were voted in as completely righteous before God by the leaders that are being chastised by those Archbishops that are coming here to protect a faith “once deliverd.” The problem is that there is no need for repentance at all if a canon or vote is involved.

If no one else will raise a voice that will be recognized by our leaders, then someone has to do it.  It is hard for an ECUSA bishop to defrock an Archbishop for speaking out against something that would get one of the ECUSA’s ministers in a heap of trouble.

[4] Posted by Milton Finch on 02-01-2006 at 10:26 AM • top

I’m going to go out on a limb and say “No way!”  Here is what I’ve just posted to the House of Bishops/Deputies mailing list discussion about “schism.”

A write you all know and like wrote:

> I think schism can be avoided.  I think
> we need to allow space for the two different
> versions of Episcopalianism/Anglicanism
> emerging in North America to grow and develop.

I don’t think so.  Your comments sounds just like the January 25 Forward day by day. (Note: No, I don’t read it.  Dodn’t recommend it.  Don’t find it safe.  I read it here first after Rick Harris used it in his article.)

One side seeks to conform to the will of God.

The other side seeks to conform to the ways of the world, unmindful that they are leading their sheep away from God and into sin, judgement, and death.

If we allow this to be just another choice, we lead ourselves and others down the same path of sin.

To avoid schism, what is necessary is full compliance with the letter and the spirit of the Windsor Report.

Look up the word syncretism.


Andy Figueroa
L4 S. Ohio, 2003
http://philippians-1-20.us/

[5] Posted by Andy Figueroa on 02-01-2006 at 02:38 PM • top

Terebinth, I agree entirely that at the heights of the Episcopal church our leaders are acting in a quite inhospitable and unwelcoming way toward those with a pro-life point of view.  That is really the underlying thesis of my article.  I wasn’t aware that an Anglican archbishop had come to your city and told you personally that your theology is dead wrong.  When you have a chance, please enlighten us with the details of that conversation. 

Marty, your point is a good one.  I should have said that both sides include faithful Christians and seem to have been willing to acknowledge the existence of that quality in one another.

Andy, I’m a little lost.  Your post follows several others.  I’m not sure what your comment,  “No way,” is responding to.

Blessings to all.

[6] Posted by Rick H. on 02-01-2006 at 03:19 PM • top

Rick,

Sorry about the ambiguity, and I understand why you wrote, “Andy, I’m a little lost.  Your post follows several others.  I’m not sure what your comment, “No way,” is responding to.”

I am aware that my reply isn’t quite about the pro-life thread of your article.  Shucks, there isn’t really anything to discuss there.  The ECUSA is pro-death.  My main point is about ending the talk, and preparing for the future as we head for the exit.

Back to why I wrote what I did: The end of the FDBD reads, “Can we agree at times to disagree, yet still love one another, and remain faithful to our Lord?” to which you state, “The answer to the final question is, of course we CAN.”

Now, I’m interpreting “can we still love one another” as “can we stay together and be Christians in the same church in spite of the disagreement(s).” 

To that I’m saying “no way.”  And, the pro-life/pro choice disagreement is just another symptom of of the Episcopal Church’s abandonment of historic and normative Christianity.  Now, with General Convention 2006 looming before us, we’re well past the recourse of trying to have a voice by writing letters and running for vestry or convention delegate.  If the miracle of the Episcopal Church repenting and returning to the fold of historic Christianity does not happen (I pray for it, but I’m planning for the opposite), we CANNOT stay together in ANY relationship.  It’s time for each faithful congregation (and individual Christian) to start working out their exit plan for the sake of their souls and for the sake of those who follow us and come after us, not to mention the children.

Faithfully and somewhat longwidedly,
Andy Figueroa

[7] Posted by Andy Figueroa on 02-01-2006 at 08:42 PM • top

Andy, thanks for the clarification.  I would have to say I both agree with you and disagree with you.  We CAN stay together with reappraisers in the same church despite disagreeing about issues such as the ordination of persons who are in sexual relationships with others to whom they are not married, and despite disagreeing about whether abortion on demand should be a God-given right, but that entirely DEPENDS upon what the church as a whole does.  The problem in our Episcopal Church today is not that it is filled with people who disagree with one another about these issues.  The problem is that one wing has taken over the Church and has determined to use the Church in furtherance of its own political ends.  I would willingly and glady sit in the pew next to someone who disagrees with me about these issues, and do so for the rest of my life.  The question is, how long can I sit in a pew in a parish that is part of a larger Church that now teaches doctrine that, in my view, is plainly contrary to the saving Gospel message of Jesus Christ?  We CAN agree to disagree and we CAN love one another despite our disagreements, but I CANNOT indefinitely endorse deliberate apostacy with my presence and my treasure.  One message from reasserters to reappraisers needs to be, we may be willing stay, but you need to stop using the church in ways that will predictably provoke strong disagreement among faithful Christians.  One way forward, almost certainly the only way forward, for both sides, would be unequivocal adoption by ECUSA of the Windsor Report recommendations that are directed to it.

[8] Posted by Rick H. on 02-02-2006 at 07:10 AM • top

Andy F: “start working out their exit plan for the sake of their souls and for the sake of those who follow us and come after us, not to mention the children.”  No church can save or harm your soul.  Your soul and very life have been saved and harbored forever, if you believe in Christ.  The church comes after that salvation, subsequent to it and responsive to it.  This is what Jesus means by: “I choose you, you do not choose me.” 

And this is why we have to make the church be absolutely as conforming to the intent of Christ as we can.  It is not an easy thing.  It cannot happen in an atmosphere of acrimony and competition.  Some things have to die so that the whole may survive.  This is where we are right now—figuring which things need to die.  I think the most missed quality on both sides here is bravery.  There is a “gut fear of differences” animating the conservatives.  There is a “wimpiness of ease” pervading the liberals.  It checks your bravery to put faith first, before the certainties you love.

[9] Posted by terebinth on 02-02-2006 at 07:40 AM • top

I appreciate both of your replies.

Rick, I agree with where you stand.  I just also believe that ECUSA isn’t turning back.  It has been taken over and teaches a false Gospel.  We are currently observing ECUSA’s enthusiastic embrace of this “new thing” and the momentum continues to increase in the wrong direction.

Terebinth, I’m afraid I don’t fully agree your assertion that “No church can save or harm your soul.”  Perhaps that’s true as a literal statement.  However, a church that teaches the true Gospel leads to people to Christ, and a church that teaches a false Gospel leads people away Christ.  Sure, what I just wrote is a generalization, but I believe it is a true one, and a big problem, to the extent that there is no future in ECUSA (at least not in our lifetime - save the unexpected miracle from God).

Faithfully,
Andy

[10] Posted by Andy Figueroa on 02-02-2006 at 08:10 AM • top

My sentiments eggsactly, Andy.

[11] Posted by Milton Finch on 02-02-2006 at 08:48 AM • top

Also, am not certain why a church “conforming to the intent of Christ” “cannot happen in an atmosphere of acrimony and competition” . . .

There are a number of instances described in the New Testament when church leaders disputed hotly and fiercely over various matters—an atmosphere of acrimony and competition.  Those differences were resolved either in council together over “adiophora” [things indifferent, or matters that were smaller issues], or by exercising church discipline over those who propagated a false gospel and gross heresy.

Those things also need to be occurring within ECUSA and unfortunately are not.

[12] Posted by Sarah on 02-02-2006 at 09:09 AM • top

I am confused.

The Episcopal Church has spoken on the abortion issue,it joined Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice and for years now has been on the forefront of the most aggressive pro-abortion agenda possible, even opposing bans on 9th month, live baby abortions. 

The Episcopal Church has spoken on matters of sexuality, with GC consecrating Bishop Robinson, recognizing local option same sex blessings and overwhelmingly rejecting efforts to disclipline Bishops who ordain practicing gay Priests.

After GC 2006 some will say, if you don’t repent by GC 2009, I am leaving!  This time I mean it!  In the meantime, God will continue reforming his church from the outside with the weekly creation of new non-ECUSA Anglican churches.

Honestly, what is anyone waiting on? Everyone can see who has been selected as delegates to GC 2006, there are fewer and fewer orthadox delegates. No one believes that GC 2006 will result in a change.

Rather than shaking your fist at ECUSA, walk out the door and get on God’s work.  In virtually every city of any size their is a vibrant new Anglican church, some AMIA, some not.

[13] Posted by Going Home on 02-02-2006 at 12:46 PM • top

The Executive Council’s action is not inclusive of many Episcopalians.  In all StandFirm states (AL, LA, MS, WV), polls of the general population show the pro-life segment to be 53-57% and the pro-choice segment to be 36-39%.  Will the standing committees of these dioceses honor all of its communicants by setting up a separate fund for pro-life donors, precluding the transfer of those monies to the national church?
Aside from the primary issue (the ethics of abortion), this action raise a secondary issue of no small importance.  How committed is the Executive Council to holding the ship together?  I have seen no compelling reason why this decision could not have been tabled.

[14] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-02-2006 at 07:03 PM • top

Jill . . . a very good point.  Note that the pace of vacuous liberal public pronouncements from the Presiding Bishop about various American political matters has increased, this abortion decision has occurred, the executive council enters into “official” agreements about other revisionist matters with other denominations, and many other silly blatantly arrogant things have been acted on over the past three months.

I think there’s a reason for these actions, in a clearly divided, angry denomination.

I’ll give *one* guess from commenters as to why the national church leaders are taking these actions in the six months prior to General Convention.  ; > )

[15] Posted by Sarah on 02-02-2006 at 07:14 PM • top

This is just another drumbeat that ECUSA has abandoned the communion.  Now who does the presentment, inhibition, defrocking, excommunicating?  ECUSA is the pro-death organization from top to bottom.  I wouldn’t want any of that on my record, but then I only subcribe to the Hypoccratic Oath.

[16] Posted by John Hey MD on 02-02-2006 at 08:37 PM • top

Sarah, I can think of several reasons.  However, they don’t seem internally consistent because, as much as they disdain those of us who hold different viewpoints, they still need our financial donations.  The only internally consistent explanation that I can come up with is a scenario where they are intentionally trying to provoke people to leave because they figure it would be more expensive if they stay.
Am I being cynical?  All my life, I’ve assumed the best about people.  Now, I’m a lot more selective in assuming the best. This may be a reaching of maturity, but it still makes me sad.
Maybe that’s why I’ve turned to prayer so much.  I realize that in such a conflicted milieu it would be very easy for me to endanger my soul (Mt 24:12). We’re called to proclaim Christ boldly in the face of lawlessness, all the while avoiding cold love.  To do so requires an enormous amount of time in the presence of Christ, letting Him rest on our wounds, so that we’re driven by love, rather than pain and anger.

[17] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-02-2006 at 08:40 PM • top

There’s another secondary issue.  I can’t find the numbers, but I’ve read that the most strongly pro-life segment of the population is the youth.  What does this decision of the Executive Council say to the youth?  Will the standing committees of our dioceses honor our youth, the future of the church, and set aside a separate fund for pro-life donors?

[18] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-03-2006 at 04:49 AM • top

It goes back to bravery.  It would require a great dose of moxey to proclaim to your “peers” and “fellows” that after consideration of the broad consequences of endorsing RCRC, the Executive Committee at this time has decided to study further.  But folks, supposing your prayers were answered and they did just that.  What would be the response from the Orthodox?  Would such an action even be noticed?  If so, would it be hailed as genuine, or denigrated as some sort of double-cross?  Would Bishop Duncan be scheduling meetings w/815 to explore new ground?

I submit again that there is an absence of bravery on both sides, that both sides of just this little subset of the overall debate have so far retreated into their fortresses that a real catalclysm will be required to restart anything positive.

[19] Posted by terebinth on 02-03-2006 at 07:58 AM • top

Terebinth, I’m sorry, but I’m not buying.  Nearly all of the reasserters who post here are Episcopalians who have not left the Episcopal Church. 

I suggest to you that the deputies and bishops who will be making decisions on behalf of ECUSA at GC ‘06 in about 5 months will have a monumental decision to make: adopt the Windsor recommendations, or effectively take the Episcopal Church out of the Worldwide Anglican Communion.  If Windsor is adopted, certainly the orthodox in our church will have cause to rejoice, and we will have ground on which we can rebuild bridges, if not to the outright political leftists in the church, then at least to the institutionalists.  If the Windsor recommendations are not adopted, then I cannot imagine how the Worldwide Anglican Communion or the Episcopal Church will survive intact.  We will be a formally fractured denomination. 

By joining a pro-choice group, the ECUSA Executive Committee is burning bridges, which tells us what they think is going to happen in June.

Unlike many who post here, however, I do not think that rejection of the WR is a done deal.  The liberals want GC to reject it; the orthodox tend to see the upcoming vote as a crossroads, and the way the vote goes will tell them which road to continue down.

But the HOB and the House of Deputies are also filled with many ECUSA institutionalists, people whose real first loyalty is the Episcopal Church.  The liberals will vote against the WR recommendations because they believe their cause is more important than the unithy of the church.  The orthodox will support the WR recommendations because they think it will take ECUSA in a more positive direction.  But what of those who will vote based not on whether they support the ordination of gay clergy, but based on which course is more likely to hold the church together?  I am not sure this group has been heard from, even though they may well hold sway in the upcoming GC.

[20] Posted by Rick H. on 02-03-2006 at 08:58 AM • top

Jesus cured the blind, healed an ear, cured the lame, cured lepers, and gave hope to the downtrodden.

Althought we cannot do all that Jesus did, He showed us the way of the Lord and that we should love one another.

Did Jesus ever perform an abortion?

Did Jesus ever commit a homosexual act?

If some claim they are called to expand their “belief” or “reason” or “tradition” to say He did, are the rest of us bound to tolerate and accept this heresey?

What would Jesus say?

Get behind me Satan?

[21] Posted by MasterServer on 02-03-2006 at 09:42 AM • top

“By joining a pro-choice group, the ECUSA Executive Committee is burning bridges, which tells us what they think is going to happen in June.”

So agree, Rick OP.

Jill, surely your Samurai Warrior training is paying off!!!  ; > )

Here’s what I think about the latest [last 6 months] ECUSA tactics from the national leadership.

Their worst fears—no, they hadn’t even imagined it, so not “fears”, I’ll just say “the worst outcome possible”—happened for them over the past 2.5 years.

The reappraisers imagined that post-ECUSA, the reasserters would roll over and play dead, with a small percentage leaving [the 2% that were actually the “theological primitives”.] ; > )

Instead—a larger percentage left, but a much, much larger percentage stayed [in fact, larger than what the reappraisers even imagined existed within ECUSA], organized, and have fought very effectively diocese by diocese and parish by parish.

I am dead certain that the national reappraisers *never dreamed*, nay, never even imagined or had it cross their mind, the havoc that this would create.  And certainly never thought that people would a) stay and b) fight very loudly and publicly and strategically. 

If given the options they would have liked, in order of preference 1) people to stay and continue to send money, or 2) a tiny percentage to leave, with others staying and sending money, or 3) a larger percentage leaving, but with ECUSA claiming the field and demonstrating to the world that a mainline denomination now held a *unified* theology concerning a host of little pet causes and a unitarian theology.

The real answer to what happened?  None of the above.

Now for the answer to my question posted above.  I think that the increase in caustic pronouncements and actions by the national church over the past six months is a desperation ploy calculated to drive people away quickly and attempt to cement their public hold on the church—but hopefully drive people away as individuals rather than whole parishes, and less organized rather than unified and organized reasserters.

I don’t think it will work—but that’s another story entirely.

[22] Posted by Sarah on 02-03-2006 at 10:10 AM • top

This is a great article, however, I would respectfully submit the real significance of ECUSA’s consistent, radical pro-abortion in any circumstance stance is not that is signals that ECUCA will not adopt the Windsor Report but that it is morally wrong. Its incredible to think that a so called Christian denomination and its leaders would take a position against any societal restrictions on killing a full term baby. But its been going on for a long time. And we have been funding it.

GC will surely adopt resolutions that give a head nod to Windsor, while not changing the overall direction of the church. The language in the resolutions will provide some with enough justification to stay for three more years. Others will justify staying by pointing out the liklihood that the ACB and COE will stay in communion with ECUSA, or by pointing out that the Southern Hemisphere bishops also violated the Windsor Report by rescuing American parishioners.

Ultimately, the issue is not the Windsor Report.

[23] Posted by Going Home on 02-03-2006 at 10:59 AM • top

Rick OP: “we will have ground on which we can rebuild bridges, if not to the outright political leftists in the church, then at least to the institutionalists.”  This is the heart of the problem.  We have sunk to a level of politics (reflective of national party politics), rather than holding to the high ground of the true nature of the church. 

“Did Jesus ever perform an abortion?

Did Jesus ever commit a homosexual act?”

Of course not, BUT He would have healed anyone who did; without questions and in secret.  The problem now is that the cheapeners of the Gospel—both sides—have used it and abused it so thoroughly that one has to be a hermit to see around their political bluster down to the truth below. 

Rick, and friends: I am one of those who has not left the church.  And I have watched as others, led by false teachers, self-righteousness, or simple callowness, have trumped up failures in ECUSA which have a kernel of truth but fail to comply with the bigger tests.  What political common ground do you propose to conjure up after all you have done?  Do you really have the bravery to try?

[24] Posted by terebinth on 02-03-2006 at 06:10 PM • top

Re: “We have sunk to a level of politics . . . “

I do not consider the idea of “politics”—which is nothing more than considered involvement in the ordering and structuring of an organization—to be a “sinking” to.  In fact, I believe that it was a sin for reasserters to have been so lax in involvement in politics in the past in ECUSA.  Kudos to the reappraisers for their calculated political involvement, and disgrace to us for not doing so sooner.  Not being involved in the “politics” of an organization of which someone is a part is a gnostic, pietistic form of spiritualism that shuns the involvement in the “crass material” world. Reasserters should repent of such gnosticism, and that right speedily.

Re: “And I have watched as others, led by false teachers, self-righteousness, or simple callowness, have trumped up failures in ECUSA which have a kernel of truth but fail to comply with the bigger tests.”

If Terebinth is speaking of reasserters actively involved in resistance, then good for us.  We need to keep it up—obviously I don’t grant that such reasserters are either “false teachers”, or “self-righteous”, or “callow”, nor that we have “trumped up failures” . . . but hey!  ; > )

Re: “What political common ground do you propose to conjure up after all you have done?”

None. 

I propose that we do still more . . . and increase the level of political involvement within ECUSA for as long as a reasserting Episcopalian is a member of ECUSA.


Signed,

The Inclusive Moderate [but also orthodox & reasserting, and John Dominic Crossan is my favorite theologian, with Jack Spong running a close second, and the resurrection of Jesus of course really simply means “spring flowers out of the frozen ground of winter in all of our hearts”]

[25] Posted by Sarah on 02-03-2006 at 07:15 PM • top

Prayers for sanctity of life can be found at the following addresses.  Scroll down to find the appropriate entry.
lent.classicalanglican.net/index.php?paged=1
‘Sanctity of Life’
lent.classicalanglican.net/index.php?paged=3
‘The Prayer of Azariah’
‘Archbishop Runcie—A Prayer for the Sanctity of Life’
‘Pray for NOEL and the March for Life’
Thank you for your intercessions.

[26] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-04-2006 at 07:06 AM • top

Sarah: the subject before the house was I thought “How should we behave…while we are agreeing to disagree?”  I suggested above that “hospitality” was a good model for such behavior.  It will require some supression of incendiary actions, especially at first.  Do I take it that you do not understand what I really mean by hospitality, or do you simply reject the concept?  As I read what you say, your proposal for common ground seems to be: there is none, if there every should be some, burn it down “...and increase the level of political involvement…” That’s pretty much a non-starter for hospitality.

[27] Posted by terebinth on 02-04-2006 at 09:04 AM • top

Terebinth,

I am unsure of what “agreeing to disagree” has to do with extending hospitality—after all, I’m more than willing to show hospitality to those with whom I’m *not* agreeing to disagree, and I certainly have no intention of “agreeing to disagree” within ECUSA as long as I am within it.

Also I’m unsure of what hospitality has to do with not engaging in political involvement—I am more than able to engage both in hospitality and increasing the level of political involvement as long as I am within ECUSA.

[28] Posted by Sarah on 02-04-2006 at 10:52 AM • top

Sarah, look at the top of the thread.  Rick proposed a good question.  It can have a productive answer, but a difficult one.  You demonstrate yourself above part of the difficulty.  To be blunt are you folks barn burners and horse thieves, or can you be positive?

[29] Posted by terebinth on 02-04-2006 at 12:18 PM • top

Reasserters are being very positive—you just don’t think that our actions are positive, since you’re not interested in resisting or reforming the Episcopal church.

That’s fine, of course. To each his own . . .

But our actions are positive—rather than sit around and whine, we’re actually engaged in positive action.  I’m sorry you think that we’re “part of the difficulty” but then, you and I don’t have the same values or worldview, so I suppose neither of us should be surprised.

Truth is, Terebinth, reasserters have two options: leave the Episcopal church [as some have done], or work hard to resist the actions of heresy within the Episcopal church.  Those are the only two options that I have been able to discern over the past 2.5 years.

[30] Posted by Sarah on 02-04-2006 at 12:26 PM • top

True, Sarah,

That is what we have been forced into.  There is no turning back.  The liberals will either repent or they will no longer be considered Anglican by any stretch of the imagination.  REpent means backing off of the innovations which divide ECUSA from Christianity and then removing the “bishop” up in New Hampshire, promising not to do it again and then cease with the same sex unions.  That, to me, is the only way out of the apostacy that ECUSA has voted itself into.

Peace! (with a smile)

[31] Posted by Milton Finch on 02-04-2006 at 01:04 PM • top

I wonder what “productive” but “difficult” answer Terebinth is hinting at? Terebinth, might you give us some insight?

[32] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 02-04-2006 at 01:28 PM • top

Go to the 2nd post in the thread.  Its on pg 1.

[33] Posted by terebinth on 02-04-2006 at 02:27 PM • top

Terebinth, the conversation on these long threads can be confusing, with several voices participating.  I agree it is a great privilege and responsibility to be part of the body of Christ.  By continuing in the Episcopal Church, rather than leaving, I hope I have communicated steadiness, forbearance, and patience.  My concern is that the Executive Council’s actions, by committing the church to a pro-choice organization, has in effect passed judgment on pro-life Episcopalians.  It has not been ‘inclusive’ of those communicants who held a different view.  It has been inhospitable to such persons because now when they exercise their privilege and responsibility of making financial offerings to the church, they are supporting an ethical stand that is unacceptable.  Therefore, in forbearance and patience, I have asked that the standing committees provide an alternative fund for making donations.  If I seem inhospitable to you in this request, I would sincerely like to understand how.

[34] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-04-2006 at 04:37 PM • top

Terebinth,

That’s a nice story and all and yes the Church is the living Temple of God. But if there is anything the NT is clear about it is that God has entrusted the leaders of his Church to enforce discipline. Just read the pastorals, or 1 Cor 5, or 2nd Peter 2 or Jude or Jesus’ own instructions in Matthew 18. All of these make clear that when false teaching arises in the church we are not to simply roll over and wait for the second coming. Sorry, that’s is a post-modern not a New Testament model.

[35] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 02-04-2006 at 04:51 PM • top

In response to:

>“Did Jesus ever perform an abortion?

>Did Jesus ever commit a homosexual act?”

Terebinth said:

>“Of course not, BUT He would have healed anyone >who did; without questions and in secret.”

He can forgive cruel acts and murderers, too, but His teachings say don’t do it.  Just because one will be forgiven does not imply license to sin.

Consequently, our church should not teach that it is ok to do these things when the Bible teaches against it.

I would say, “go start your own church if you think that’s the way things should be,” but instead I would just ask that you respect our church, and stop screwing around with it to try to make it fit your prurient needs.

[36] Posted by MasterServer on 02-04-2006 at 05:40 PM • top

To reiterate my position:  I am more than willing agree to disagree with any fellow parishioner, or fellow ECUSAn.  I am willing to agree to disagree with the leadership of ECUSA only to the extent that they agree not to use their leadership authority to change traditional teachings about what constitutes sin and about the necessity for repentance while we are in the process of, “Agreeing to disagree.”

On the other hand, when they substitute the social justice Gospel for the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and when they teach that what Christians have understood to be sin for 2000 years is no longer sin, and that we know this because of our superior modern understanding of human relationships (despite what Jesus said in the Gospel of Matthew), then I will not agree to disagree.  I will call heresy by the name of heresy and attempt to alert others to the fact that our church has been hijacked by ersatz Christians.

[37] Posted by Rick H. on 02-04-2006 at 05:45 PM • top

So, the “way we should behave” is characterized by “hijacked, ersatz (Oi-vay: ersatz yet), heresy, and the calling for necessary repentance.”  Look friends, it’s not me. And it’s not going to be you—at the rate you’re going—who reconstitutes ECUSA.  Please please go back and seriously consider what I wrote about common ground.  Truly, there may be some but not if the parties who care are bent on burning bridges to get to it.

[38] Posted by terebinth on 02-04-2006 at 06:10 PM • top

I remember a conversation I had with a revisionist priest I’m very fond of.  She felt that we needed to go back to the 4th century and redefine what constitutes heresy.  She recognized that many of her beliefs fell within the bounds of heresy; she just thought she was right and the boundaries were wrong.  Terebinth, I am sorry to say, that there are many teachings in the church in America that are heretical.  The heresies are so subtle and so plentiful that no doubt all of us have unwittingly slipped into them at one time or another. It takes a courageous friend to point them out, and I thank Rick for his courage, and I pray to God that I have the courage to repent of such each time I deviate.  Jesus said in his high priestly prayer, “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.”  (I don’t think Jesus was saying that for his benefit or God’s benefit, but for our benefit.)  He went on to say, ” . . . that they all may be one.”  This is the common ground that Jesus gave us.

[39] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-04-2006 at 06:56 PM • top

Terbinth, I do not know what you mean in your last post.  By “do not know what you mean” I mean that it is incomprensible to me.  I literally do not know, sentence to sentence, what you just said.  This may have very little to do with you or the comment, and a lot to do with me. 

For instance, what does the “way we should behave” have to do with “hijacked”, “ersatz”, and “heresy”.  I’m totally confused by that sentence.

I’ll take a wild stab in the dark and cast a dart at the board [to mix metaphors] and say that you must mean that reasserters should not use the words “hijacked”, “ersatz”, and “heresy”.  I’m not sure why not.  I mean—doesn’t that sound awfully puritanical to tell others what words they should use to describe something else?

Also, I do not know what you mean by “Look friends, it’s not me.”  What’s not you?  I do not know what this means.

I *think* I know what you mean by sentence 3: “And it’s not going to be you—at the rate you’re going—who reconstitutes ECUSA.”

Boy do I agree with you about that one!  I’ve said for some time that I don’t believe that ECUSA is reformable outside of a massive miracle by God—sort of like what happened to the Roman Catholic church by the time of Martin Luther—but then, we’re talking about what actions should be taken by Episcopalians while they are, er, Episcopalians.  I mean, Martin Luther didn’t “reconstitute” the Roman Catholic church, except rather indirectly through the consequences of his being excommunicated by same church and then only generations later.  But does that make Martin Luther wrong for his stand?  Just because he couldn’t “reconstitute” the Roman Catholic church?

Sentence 4: “Please please go back and seriously consider what I wrote about common ground.”  I have no clue about what you have said about “common ground” . . . I haven’t yet seen any opinion from you about what actually constitutes “common ground” nor have I discerned what parties within ECUSA that you deem have such “common ground”, whatever it is.

Finally, Sentence 5: “Truly, there may be some but not if the parties who care are bent on burning bridges to get to it.”

I do not know what you mean by “some”.  Some what?  And what is “get to it”—get to where?  What is it?  And who wants to get there?


Signed,

Clueless Samurai Warrior

[40] Posted by Sarah on 02-04-2006 at 07:23 PM • top

WEATHER BULLETIN:  the international Biblical bureau of standards has issued an urgent warning—-a category six hurrican is bearing down on ECUSA.  The eye is predicted to pass over 915 in June.  All orthodox should take precautions since everything that can be shaken will be shaken and only what is true will remain standing, therefore be only in a storm proof structure and anchored to the Rock or evacuate to higher sanctified ground.  If you choose to ignore this warning then see that you and all your family have correct ID 0n an attached toe tag.  Repeat,  there will be no sudden rapture or government intervention to stoop this destruction.  That is all—have ears to hear.

[41] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 02-05-2006 at 08:48 AM • top

Oh, PM—this is priceless.

However, in your surety that there will be no rapture to rescue us beleaguered reasserting ECUSAns, you offer a valuable “clew” as to your theological identity.  It is clear that you are not Baptist or some other dispensational grouping, since any dispensationalist knows that Christians are “looking for our blessed disappearance” even more than Christ’s appearance.  ; > )  Which means you must be of some sort of “covenant” eschatology.  This flies in the face of my previous assumptions about you.

Also, as we all know, you can’t be ECUSAn that’s somehow faking a rough-around-the-edges commenter, since any well-learned reasserting Episcopalian knows that the true Center of the Apocalypse takes place at “815”, not “915”. 

This is the sort of question that one asks someone with a Truth Serum in interrogation, just in case they’ve had plastic surgery in order to appear like a reasserter.  Picture here, for instance, a reappraiser who has had surgery to appear like Greg Griffith in order to infiltrate the Stand Firm organization—we suspect that the person is not really Greg Griffith, and casually drop a reference to “915” in order to see how he responds.  When he doesn’t blink an eye, and eagerly asserts “yeh, that bad old 915 really has to go” . . . We Know The Truth.

The radar hones in closer to Your True Identity.


Signed,

Anglican Samurai Detective
[who learned all I needed to know about Anglican warfare from Alias]

[42] Posted by Sarah on 02-05-2006 at 09:22 AM • top

PS: I would like to offer a complaint to the learned blogmaster.  Thanks to our comment number, I am now having to go to “Page Two” in order to view comments. 

This.  Is.  An.  Outrage.

And must stop . . .

; > )

[43] Posted by Sarah on 02-05-2006 at 09:24 AM • top

This link is on the Stand Firm home page.  It appears to be a very reasoned and reasonable explanation of the reasserter’s position, and an explantion to those who are thinking - what’s the big deal.

“We’ve Had Dessert: Biblical Malnutrition & Today’s Episcopal Church”

Charles W. Slaton, Jr.‘s superb essay, written especially for a lay audience, on the crisis in the Episcopal Church.

[44] Posted by MasterServer on 02-05-2006 at 10:22 AM • top

Terebinth, I think you are half right. There has been a lack of civility and hospitality on both sides.  That is not a good thing.

But we differ regarding the underlying cause of the conflict. Many of us believe that the actions of the church leadership (membership in the pro-abortion group being just one example) have moved from being simply being misguided or “lost” to being an active force for Satan (whether they know it or not).  That is not a politically correct thing to say and is “hurtful”, but I don’t know how you can otherwise characterize the stance on morality issues, or the denial of Jesus as God. Orthadox Christians who remain in ECUSA are going to remain in conflict, and frustrated, because the Holy Spirit will not give them peace.
Darkness and light simply cannot co-exist in the same space.

[45] Posted by Going Home on 02-05-2006 at 01:00 PM • top

Sahah Sam, I just checked the weather report to see if there has been any updates, and they assure me that the eye will pass over 915 and not 815 since that is one block over and is the location of the secret underground bunker headquarters and wine cellar of the revisionist.  It is reported that they are already stocking up on assesments, realestate titles, libations, and technicolor vestments and herbal incense there.  Collateral damage is expected over the entire continent.  There is also predicted to be an earthquake to folow.

[46] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 02-05-2006 at 01:32 PM • top

PM . . . you have a frightening knowledge of the High Values and True Priorities of what our Worthy Opponents would stock up on in the underground bunker.  ; < (

Would you care to speculate about what particular alcoholic libations they would store away?  If you get these right, I may have to reconsider whether you are an Episcopalian. 


Signed,

Anglican Samurai Detective

[47] Posted by Sarah on 02-05-2006 at 02:24 PM • top

Timothy, I have remained in ECUSA, and I confess to much frustration and conflict.  I challenge the idea that a faithful witness is to be free of such.  I merely point out that in a dark space, the light shines brighter.  Were you to ask me, During what time in your life have you had the most powerful witness, I would have to answer, This time.  Were you to ask me, During what time in your life have you found your truest voice, I would have to answer, This time.  Were you to ask me, During what time in your life have you felt closest to God, I would have to answer, This time.  I thank God for His tender mercies and His peace.
I don’t pass judgment on those who have felt called to leave.  I miss them, but I respect their desire to preserve the treasure entrusted to them.  My thoughts are not God’s thoughts, and I don’t fully understand how all this will unfold.  I’ve no doubt, though, that God will use it to His greater glory.

[48] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-05-2006 at 03:07 PM • top

Ah, Sarah, I can see through your crude efforts to ferrit out the true identity of PM, but everyone must know that it doesn’t matter who or from where PM comes—-the message is what is important and not the messenger.  Of course I would be humiliated to admit I am an Episcopalian.  Brother, I wouldn’t have confessed that!  Besides the typos and mispellings should tip everyone off to the sparse cultural and educational background, not to mention lack of manners.  howeever PM does have a really good G-2 section and lots of inside technical info gathering gadgets.  Chris Johnson often consults me in secret to help him solve some of his mysteries.  Now I do know how the 915 Bunker is formated.  There are Peter, Paul and Mary posters on the wall as well as Jane Fonda pictures.  Sixties rock and folk music permeate the air as the strobe lights and black lights flash.  For some reason there is tin foil at the doors that can be quickly donned.  Alas, in the bar there is an austerity program in place due to the masssive withholding of money that should belong to the bishops and PB.  You will mainly find Old Thunderbird wine, Ripple, Champale and an occarional small bottle of Dr. Tischiner’s.  They plan on having to stay here only a short time since the storm will soon pass over and it will be all is well.  To think that all these combat conditions are just because of biggots who resent killing a few, mostly non-episcopalian babies and NASCAR type hererophils who don’t know the pleuropotential fullness of what they would call deviant practices. But they are willing to suffer under this austerity if they can assure the new thing that will capture the religious world when it is known.  After all Tallis and Bach haven’t brought out the crowds.

[49] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 02-05-2006 at 05:55 PM • top

Huh?

[50] Posted by terebinth on 02-05-2006 at 07:04 PM • top

PM, you have clearly been there.  Admit it.  You used to be a left wing, social justice gospel proclaiming, politically correct, revisionist Hilary Clinton supporter who never saw a Democratic candidate that he didn’t like.  But you have now repented, and you bring us tidbits from your former life. 

Do tell.

[51] Posted by Rick H. on 02-05-2006 at 08:14 PM • top

PM,

Hmmm.  Sometimes you hit the nail on the head, as in the old pictures of Fonda protesting the war, and the Peter, Paul, and Mary posters [although a better choice would be a picture of John Lennon with the song “Imagine” playing].

BUT NO EPISCOPALIAN, NO MATTER HOW IMPOVERISHED BY FUNDAMENTALIST REASSERTERS WHO REDIRECT FUNDS FROM GOOD-HEARTED BISHOPS, WOULD DRINK OLD THUNDERBIRD WINE!!!!!!

Heresy.  Apostasy.  Lawsuits.  BUT NOT OLD THUNDERBIRD WINE.

[52] Posted by Sarah on 02-05-2006 at 08:56 PM • top

As a lay person that has left the church, I am encouraged by the intelligent thoughts of those who stay in ECUSA with the efforts to reassert traditional Episcopal Biblical values.  (I am a little saddened to see this thread deteriorating - although in a friendly way - because I am sure 815 sympathizers monitor it or receive reports as to the effectiveness of their revisionism.)

I find that the most effective influence that I can wield is to leave (attendance statistics are telling), and end my pledge (this I have done for two years now) (monetary statistics are very telling) (our parish has deemed that it does not have to honor dedicated specific use pledges - so I am forced to totally end my small contributions to get any attention from the powers that currently be.

I wish you continued good luck, and will continue to monitor Stand Firm in hopes for a change in leadership that will allow me to return.

I have found a AMiA church.

[53] Posted by MasterServer on 02-06-2006 at 07:29 AM • top

Terebinth: Why is it, do you think, that it is always the traditional orthodox that are blamed for inciting schism? Are we all supposed to just roll over and play dead? The revisionistas seem to think that “We can have peace and happiness in ECUSA if the orthodox would just give up everything they stand for and believe in and believe what we believe in”. That is incredible arrogance.

the snarkster

[54] Posted by the snarkster on 02-06-2006 at 10:35 AM • top

Well its a good question, and if you will allow just a little editorial first: “always the traditional orthodox that are blamed…”  and “Are we all supposed to just roll…”  Truly, it is not always and all.  Nothing is so pervasive.  Or so simple.  Blame is not the issue, anyway there is plenty of blame all around.  The point of my editorial is to say: this is complex, and will never be settled by absolute positions, simplistic posturing, or haughty acusations.  Anyone who wants a settlement, or a solution, or a new day when we can get on with the real vision of the Church needs to be prepared to suffer. 

Frankly the “orthodox” position has been made pretty clear.  It’s been crusted over with political fluff, but we know what orthhodox means and what orthodox wants.  It is the traditional ECUSA positions which need more work.  ECUSA has not done the hard work necessary to hammer out a consensus—they’re working on it.  Oh, they’ve voted and they’ve written etc., but there really hasn’t yet been a hard, dependable agreement on these issues forthcoming, so far.  Which is why the orthodox do get some justifiable heat: haste makes waste.

And the waste isnt just in the speed, its also in the stridency and cocksureness.  This is a church, it works on a different timetable from other institutions.  Even the American Revolution brewed for 100 years before 1776.  AMiA is what, 15 years old?  My personal experience has been they behave as if they were born here.

[55] Posted by terebinth on 02-06-2006 at 02:28 PM • top

Terebinth: So why don’t the revisionistas back off and wait for a consensus? The orthodox are not trying to change anything. We simply want to keep our traditional faith. Do you also get on revisionist sites and castigate them for their actions and demeanor?

the snarkster

[56] Posted by the snarkster on 02-06-2006 at 03:39 PM • top

The revisionist are having a hard time getting a concensus and inclusivist position that gives the orthodox a place to stay for the same reason that a burgler has a hard time finding a policeman!

[57] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 02-06-2006 at 04:44 PM • top

Well I rest my case.

[58] Posted by terebinth on 02-06-2006 at 06:13 PM • top

Terebinth: You didn’t answer my question.

the snarkster

[59] Posted by the snarkster on 02-07-2006 at 08:15 AM • top

Snark: Whichever question? “Why is it…that it is always the traditional orthodox that are blamed…”  or “So why don’t the revisionistas back off…” or “Do you also get on revisionist sites…” or my personal favorite: why does “a burgler have a hard time finding a policeman…”

These are fun and games, but the real question was and is Rick’s: “...while we are agreeing to disagree, how shall we behave toward one another and remain faithful to the Lord…?”

I have tried to answer that one in truth and with care.  You?

[60] Posted by terebinth on 02-07-2006 at 11:42 AM • top

Terebinth: The burglar question wasn’t mine. My last question was “Do you also get on revisionist sites and castigate them for their actions and demeanor?” What I am trying to ascertain is this: Do you hold revisionists to the same standards that you apparently expect of Stand Firm? It is a simple and relevant question. I await your reply.

the snarkster

[61] Posted by the snarkster on 02-07-2006 at 12:24 PM • top

Yes of course, same standards.  All Christians have a higher standard than the world in general sets.  Its called the golden rule.  I do my best, have you found fault?

[62] Posted by terebinth on 02-07-2006 at 01:07 PM • top

Terebinth: I know nothing about you so I would find it hard to fault you. My only source of information would your answer to the question, which you still haven’t answered. Do you get on revisionist websites and take them to task like you do at Stand Firm? Inquiring minds want to know.

the snarkster

[63] Posted by the snarkster on 02-07-2006 at 01:15 PM • top

If you call this being taken to task, then yes.  Assuming that satisfies your mind, how about you answering Rick’s question for us?  By your lights, how should we behave while we agree to disagree?  You see, Snark, I believe this question goes pretty deep, and deserves more than just a flip.  You?

[64] Posted by terebinth on 02-07-2006 at 01:31 PM • top

I think there is a significant difference between the opinions that may be expressed by fellow parishioners, and the official teachings and positions of ECUSA as promulgated by the denomination’s leadership.  While we should behave cordially and hospitably and lovingly to fellow parishioners with whom we disagree, there is nothing wrong with being critical, even sharply critical, of official positions and teachings of our leaders when they promote a social justice gospel or otherwise contradict the saving gospel message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.  It is not an act of love to simply accept heretical teachings or to sit quietly by while our leaders proclaim them.  The point of my article is that our leadership, while claiming to want to, “agree to disagree,” is actually poking us orthodox Christians in the eye with a stick.  We have the right and the duty to say so, and to say that our protests are somehow unChristian is, to my mind, a fundamental misinterpretation of the teachings of Jesus Christ, who was Himself quite critical of the religious leaders of His day, often using strong language and sometimes even resorting to sarcasm.   

Terebinth, I hope you can take this in the spirit of Christian love in which I pray it is offered.  I appreciate your persistence in posting here, but I have to tell you that much of what you say is completely opaque to me.  It seems to make sense to you, but I am unable to make heads or tails of it.  For example, when you wrote, “I rest my case,” I had no idea which post you were referring to (I assume you were referring to one), or how it is that you believe that some previous comment had made your point for you.  You appear to have a quick and agile mind, and perhaps your comments have a logic to them, but you are leaving out some steps that aren’t self-evident to me, nor are they, I suspect, self-evident to others.

Blessings.

[65] Posted by Rick H. on 02-08-2006 at 07:21 AM • top

Rick: certainly no offense taken.  As to Jesus being being critical and sarcastic of the Temple establishment, He went way beyond that.  for a full explanation of this see N.T. Wright, The Challenge of Jesus pg 111+. 

Which brings me to: “It is not an act of love to simply accept heretical teachings or to sit quietly by…”  This is very true and I commend you for your efforts.  But these efforts really need to be grounded in care and learning.  Sometimes your efforts fall short and become petty and stray way off base.  When that happens you do the “orthodox” no good service.  Now the ECUSA establishment has badly screwed up its communications with the laity.  It is prone to make cryptic and unbalanced pronouncements with no folow up or “environmental impact” attention.  But if we are to be heard and felt we must be better than they are, don’t you think?

[66] Posted by terebinth on 02-08-2006 at 09:04 AM • top

I think we [the reasserters] *are* being “heard and felt” very well. 

More and more former-moderates are becomingly increasingly concerned by the actions of the national church. 

I’m personally very glad about this.

[67] Posted by Sarah on 02-08-2006 at 01:12 PM • top

Sarah,
We might be seeing a new page from the play book of our Worthy Opponents:

Go to high traffic reasserter blogs; never directly answer any questions; post gentle, dolphin-like messages, showing the Orthodox to be rigid trouble makers -  “bridge-burners” “no common ground” “huh?” - .  This is not directed at the actual posters on the blog, but rather the lurkers, who could be persuaded that the problem is the Orthodox, not the inclusive all-loving revisionists.
We are probably past the stage you described as “There are only 2 of you!  You represent nobody, not even you!”

I personally am encouraged by this evidence of frustration on the part of our Worthy Opponents.

In Theory,
CarolynP

[68] Posted by CarolynP on 02-08-2006 at 08:21 PM • top

CarolynP: I take it you are referring to me as some kind of dolphin, which really makes my day today.  But addressing your underlying agenda, I encourage you and yours to seriously consider who your allies—and who your enemies—really are.  I do not subscribe to this business about being at war, but I do take what’s going on in ECUSA and its fractives seriously.  There is going to come a time when the pieces will be gathered up and made whole again.  The more civil we are now the better that will work then.  That’s how I see it, gotta dive now…

[69] Posted by terebinth on 02-09-2006 at 08:20 AM • top

Ah, terebinth -
“CarolynP: I take it you are referring to me” (Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t really out to get you!!) “as some kind of dolphin, which really makes my day today.  But addressing your underlying agenda,” (how do you know what my agenda is??  You don’t even know what I do for a living, what my favorite color is, etc etc etc)  “I encourage you and yours” (me and my what?) “to seriously consider who your allies—and who your enemies—really are.”(My allies???  My enemies????  good heavens, man, get a grip on yourself!!)

I’m sorry but your posts just don’t make sense to me.  They seem to emanate from some sort of random phrase generator.

Kind regards,
CarolynP

[70] Posted by CarolynP on 02-09-2006 at 01:37 PM • top

Re: “We are probably past the stage you described as “There are only 2 of you!  You represent nobody, not even you!”

CarolynP . . . in general I agree with you.  But I did have a recent discussion over on TitusOneNine with a guy named Brian who claimed almost exactly that.

Very strange, but funny.

; > )

[71] Posted by Sarah on 02-09-2006 at 03:56 PM • top

Look, ladies, I am just trying to help.  I am very familiar with those who do not want any help.  If you will recall at the beginning of this Rick addressed, and rightly so, how to behave while we disagree over how best to help those who cannot help themselves.  Is the best way to argue, or to get in there and work for the right answer?  This is a serious question.  It breaks the bonds of “if” and “whether” and “when” do we help the unborn and goes straight to: “which is more important, our codewords, or their distress?”  Now to me all this carrying-on about who is orthodox enough, or understandable enough, or sincerely StandFirm enough is pretty pale in light of the continuing distress caused by ECUSA endorsing RCRC.  You?

[72] Posted by terebinth on 02-09-2006 at 06:01 PM • top

Terebinth,
You will recall that my response to ECUSA endorsing RCRC was to suggest that the standing committees create a separate fund to which pro-lifers can contribute money without a portion going to 815.  In other words, the proportion going to 815 would be directly influenced by the number of prolifers.  In a strongly prolife diocese, 815 would get a smaller proportion than in a strongly prochoice diocese.  This seems to me to be a way to agree to disagree.  What is your response?

[73] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-09-2006 at 09:11 PM • top

Terebinth, I’ve already responded with how I believe that reasserters should behave who are in ECUSA.  You just didn’t like the answer.

We should be more politically engaged.  There should be more blogs like this one.  We should connect more with other reasserters.  The list is endless.  I think we’ll get there, personally.

All reasserters that I know of *are* getting in there and working for the right answer already.

Regarding those who aren’t particularly “orthodox” or “understandable” or “StandFirm enough”—they’re welcome to go on ahead and “work for the right answer” too, in their own fashion, if they feel like it.

[74] Posted by Sarah on 02-10-2006 at 07:12 AM • top

JW: Your idea effectively might address the symptom but not the disease.  The disease is taking a monolithic stand on a subject which generates substantial and deep disagreements.  Same as gay bishops.  To take a position on a hill of sand is an obvious mistake, and there is no firm ground of agreement in several such areas.  The government at large, having the courts and force of law at its disposal, can and must take such positions, but voluntary institutions do so at their peril.  It is the role of those voluntary institutions to bring about a greater understanding and agreement, through teaching, patience, and generosity to both sides. SO, the money thing might generate some short term satisfaction but if the disease is left to fester the outcome will be negative.

[75] Posted by terebinth on 02-10-2006 at 07:24 AM • top

I’m not sure I understand what you are advocating Terebinth.

ECUSA takes strong, monolithic (as you say) stands on blessing same sex unions, approving clergy and bishops who are in sexual relationships outside of marriage, and opposing any restrictions whatsoever on abortions. 

In response to the disease of taking monolithic stands on controversial issues, what exactly do you think we reasserters should be doing that is different than what we are doing now?

Blessings.

[76] Posted by Rick H. on 02-10-2006 at 08:03 AM • top

Rick: I think we should seriously reconsider the “flight” response.  It comes in 2 flavors: 1) join AMiA, or 2) join the Network.  The bottom line of both of these is that believers are drawn away from the source of the problem (ie the disease) and drawn towards their own campfires (ie the symptoms).  History teaches those isolated campfires will go out.  SO what “we reasserters should be doing that is different than what we are doing now?” is: stay and swim in the stream, and be watchful. Earlier I sugested NT Wright, as an illuminator of what Jesus really did about the Temple.  We are not Jesus, we cannot take his place. But we can (and must) be imitators of Him.  He didn’t just bitch about it, He took it, blessed it, and created new life from it.  You?

Am I being comprehensible, or can you not follow this?

[77] Posted by terebinth on 02-10-2006 at 06:35 PM • top

Joining the Network does not mean that a parish won’t “stay and swim in the stream, and be watchful”.  Joining the Network allows reasserters to 1) identify themselves and 2) group together to take *action* together.

I find it interesting that the old failed actions of the past 35 years while ECUSA has fallen apart—“stay and swim in the stream, and be watchful”—meet with Terebinth’s fervent approval.

But the actions that allow reasserters to work together to combat the horrendous heresy of the Episcopal church—joining the Network—are Very Bad, in Terebinth’s opinion.

None of this is a real surprise.  Terebinth doesn’t like organizations of reasserting Episcopalians working together, including Stand Firm.

Yes, Terebinth, you are being comprehensible.

[78] Posted by Sarah on 02-11-2006 at 06:09 AM • top

As an observer to your discussion, I note that Jesus just threw out the “change makers.”  He did not throw out the priests or the people - He left!

He obeyed God’s Word and a new church was created that continued God’s Word.

There is also the example of Lot.  He was unable to change the people in Sodom and Gomorrah, and with his family was apparently the last of the good people to LEAVE.  God told him to leave, because God did not want him and his family to continue in the unrepentent sin of the wicked!

[79] Posted by MasterServer on 02-11-2006 at 08:01 AM • top

The clergy is intent in staying the course in Soddom.

The only thing that will get their attention now is a drop in attendance and membership, and most importantly, a drop in finances.

I have already found an AMiA church, and there is another one in our community, too.

As a lay person, I have left Soddom.

I will return when the church returns to the Word.

Who will be the last family to leave?

Who will be turned into a steadfast pillar of salt that continually longs to go back to Soddom?

[80] Posted by MasterServer on 02-11-2006 at 08:06 AM • top

Soddom did not change.

ECUSA is not changing.

God destroyed Soddom.

Don’t let your family be caught in the destruction.

[81] Posted by MasterServer on 02-11-2006 at 08:08 AM • top

I am Standing Firm in the Anglican tradition and in the Word.

[82] Posted by MasterServer on 02-11-2006 at 08:10 AM • top

“Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her my people, lest you partake of her sins,...’”

Rev. 18:4

[83] Posted by MasterServer on 02-12-2006 at 07:03 AM • top

Lot, in obedience to a specific call, did leave.  I honor him for his obedience.  However, Lot is not remembered as the father of our faith.  Abraham is.  Contrast the difference between their two responses on being informed of the impending destruction.  Abraham intercedes; Lot does not.  Why the difference?  We know that Abraham built altars to God on his journey.  Perhaps his time in the presence of God shaped his heart for intercession.  Whether one receives a call to leave or to stay, I exhort them to follow the example of Abraham and intercede.

[84] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-12-2006 at 07:08 AM • top

The Church vinyard was pruned at the great Reformation when a great many people left the great and powerful Roman church.

As a result, the “reasertive” Church thrived in the Word separate from the erroneous Roman tradition that adopted worldly ways.

[85] Posted by MasterServer on 02-12-2006 at 07:15 AM • top

Lot is not remembered as the father of our faith, but he is remembered for his action in leaving a flawed Soddom.

I do not expect to be remembered as a father of our church, either.  I am just trying to follow God’s example in Lot.

[86] Posted by MasterServer on 02-12-2006 at 07:20 AM • top

Abraham interceded, but Soddom was destroyed anyway.

Both did the will of the Father.

It was Soddom that was destroyed for its sin.

[87] Posted by MasterServer on 02-12-2006 at 07:22 AM • top

Terebinth, you say, “The disease is taking a monolithic stand on a subject which generates substantial and deep disagreements. ”  I think Holy Scripture does take a monolithic stand on the subject of homosexuality, and I am unwilling to call Holy Scripture a disease. 
That is the crux of the homosexuality crisis in our church—do we set aside Holy Scripture or not?  It is a clear choice, and since the authority of scripture is part of the foundation of the church, it is an intrinsically schismatic choice.

[88] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-12-2006 at 07:23 AM • top

JW: thanks for bringing all this back to the subject.  You recall that the subject was: “How should we behave while we agree to disagree…”  Clearly there are those who believe flight is the safest response; flight does have an element of safety.  And clearly there are those who would fight, fight to whatever bitter end might be dealt them.

As for me, I do not see either issue (right-to-life, or gay inclusion) as scripturally so simple.  Without debating here on that part (a terrible disappointment I feel sure), I simply think that these issues like many others are addressed for our benefit in Scripture on one hand—but so are grace and forgiveness and God’s judgement addressed on the other hand.  I feel required to find a balance.  It is frustrating and some days I envy the certainty others have found in their issue.  That is why I so value my church, as a safe forum as well as a source of strength, and a place where those who may be wrong can find peace.

[89] Posted by terebinth on 02-12-2006 at 02:08 PM • top

Terebinth—I agree that our denomination should offer a sanctuary to those who may be wrong, and warmly welcome them among us. I think nearly everyone who posts here agrees with this.  This is not the same thing as endorsing fornication, which is what our denomination did when it consecrated a bishop who had left his wife and children and is openly living in a sexual relationship with another person to whom he is not married.  The Episcopal church is now teaching that fornication is not a sin (even though Jesus said explicitly named it as a sin).  Our national church is also advocating the position that abortion ought to be freely available to any woman who, for whatever reason, good or bad, no longer wishes to be pregnant.  The Episcopal church now says that if a woman,  decides that she does not want her baby, even just one day before she is due to deliver, then it is OK to kill that baby, and any attempt by the government to restrict her ability to do that will be fought by the resources of the church.  This is NOT the same thing as welcoming pro-choice members among us.

The position of reasserters is simple: sinners are most welcome in our church, which is a hospital for them rather than an exclusive club of saints.  But we teach and preach the supernatural transforming love of Christ Jesus, and His redemption on the cross, which refuses to leave us trapped in our sin, but instead sets us free.  When we are washed by the blood of the lamb, our sins are forgiven; they are not endorsed.  The problem with endorsement of sin by the church is that it leads away from grace.  By acknowledging our shortcomings, we are brought closer to God.  By denying them, we are brought away from God and closer to the ruler of this world.

[90] Posted by Rick H. on 02-12-2006 at 02:34 PM • top

Well, isn’t that special!?!

“We have agreed that we can sit here and agree to disagree on whether the water is getting hotter or not in this ECUSA kettle,” said the frog.

[91] Posted by MasterServer on 02-12-2006 at 03:49 PM • top

Out of the frying pan, off the stove onto the floor, and out the door!

[92] Posted by MasterServer on 02-12-2006 at 03:49 PM • top

MasterServer . . . I’m wondering something.

It’s great that you’ve found a pure church in an AMiA congregation.

But why are you not able to leave ECUSA behind, in your heart? 

If you had truly “moved on”—if you were truly not “looking back” like Lot . . . then why are you continually posting about how all the “reasserting” ECUSAns should leave yesterday?

Why is that?  Why do you suppose you haven’t yet “let go”?

I’m also curious about something else.  You left ECUSA when?  Yet . . .  ECUSA has been indulging in heretical theology and practice for the past 30+ years.  So why is it that now, all of a sudden—the instant *you* leave—everyone else who is “reasserting” must now leave also.

Why is that?

Furthermore, and finally, do you ever wonder if perhaps your insistence, your burning desire, that all reasserters remaining within ECUSA should leave *now*—at the same time *you* decided to leave—and your posting at this blog constant admonitions to do so now might just possibly indicate that you yourself are less than secure and glad and joyful in your choice, looking hopefully to the bright future of your congregation rather than back to the bleak darkness of ECUSA?  That possibly you need the support of many other people’s decisions to make you feel good about your choice, to confirm it?


Just wondering . . . because that’s the way your comments might seem to other observers.  Because your constant admonitions are not helpful.  They are not helpful to us—they do not persuade.  They are not helpful to you—they do not assuage. 


Yours in faith,

Sarah

[93] Posted by Sarah on 02-12-2006 at 06:05 PM • top

Friends: please, the question at heart is not the good or bad of these troublesome things. (RCRC, gay inclusion)  The question—and make no mistake this is the Real Question—is: “So, how should we behave while we agree to disagree?...”  Jesus answered this one definitevely and forever.  Do you know His answer?  Have you heard His answer? Can you quiet yourself enough to hear? I despair when I hear either ECUSA or (sorry) Rick, Sarah, MasterServer work on it. We can do much better.

[94] Posted by terebinth on 02-12-2006 at 06:41 PM • top

Terebinth, you are right to say that the question is “not the good or bad” of the heresies that are devastating ECUSA.  That question is settled by reasserters and we have moved on in working together to combat those heresies.  We are not asking whether it’s “good or bad”—we’ve moved on from that some years ago.

I have personally determined how I should behave—and certainly it isn’t the actions you claim we should take which is to merely “be watchful”.  Of course . . . any reasserter who would take that advice—from a person who clearly states that she isn’t actually opposed to gay ordinations, same sex blessings, or abortions—would have to be not the brightest bulb in the pack.

In fact, you would of course wish that the resistance cease and desist within ECUSA—because you’re not particularly concerned about the heresy in ECUSA.  You don’t even know that it *is* heresy, so you would oppose actions that resist it.

Terebinth—I’m sure I would enjoy talking with you over a hot latte about tennis or basketball or wilderness survival school or great books or the best movies of the past decade.  But I do not have any interest in your opinions about how reasserters should behave regarding resistance to heresy.  You would offer poor advice. 

Nor do I have any interest in quieting myself enough to hear your opinion about how reasserters ought to behave [which is actually what you mean when you speak of hearing “Jesus”]—you don’t have the same goals as reaserters within ECUSA nor do you have the interests of the gospel of Jesus Christ at heart.

Also, I’m not particularly concerned that you “despair”.

And finally—it’s not “we”, Terebinth.  You and I aren’t together in what we hope for the gospel of Christ nor for the Episcopal church nor for Anglicanism as a whole.  We do not have the same goals, nor vision, nor practice, nor theology regarding Christianity.

I do not wish to “do much better” by your definition.


Signed,

The Inclusive Moderate [but also orthodox & reasserting, and John Dominic Crossan is my favorite theologian, with Jack Spong running a close second, and the resurrection of Jesus of course really simply means “spring flowers out of the frozen ground of winter in all of our hearts”]

[95] Posted by Sarah on 02-12-2006 at 07:05 PM • top

Behave toward whom, Terebinth?  The leaders of our ECUSA denomination?  Toward each other on this blog?  My article is concerned about the way the self-styled “inclusive” leaders of our church behave toward us reasserters. 

I’m still not sure what you are advocating.  Stay, let our leadership lead us away from grace, say nothing, remain watchful?  Watchful for what? 

I am a drowning sinner.  I need a savior.  It is not about what Jesus taught.  It is about Who He is.  The only Son of God.  The Savior of the world.  The Redeemer of our sins. I’m not seeing anyone in the upper reaches of the leadership of the church who knows enough about salvation by grace to help me.  They are concerned solely with social justice, and with using the denomination to advance liberal political ends.  I find the people who can help me here.   

And this, by the way, is a discussion blog.  It is not a watcher blog.  It is not a prayer blog.  There happens to be an excellent prayer blog linked on this site.  It is called Lent & Beyond, run by our good friends Jill Woodliff and Karen B.  It is probably the most important website for reasserters, and I urge all reasserters to visit it daily and to take part in its prayers.

Terebinth, the answer of Jesus is, “Come unto Me.”  It is, “Without Me, you can do nothing.”  It is, “Go and sin no more.”  It is, “I come not to bring peace, but a sword.”  It is, “There is a ruler of this world, and take care not to be seduced by him.”  It is, “I will come again in glory to rule the world.”  It is, “Repent.”  It is, “Blessed are the poor in spirit.”  Was Jesus silent in the face of lies and misleading teaching?  Was Paul?  Was Peter?

Do you think we are not all praying for the Episcopal Church?

[96] Posted by Rick H. on 02-12-2006 at 07:27 PM • top

Rick: “I’m not seeing anyone in the upper reaches of the leadership of the church who knows enough about salvation by grace to help me…”  You haven’t looked.  You haven’t seen. It could be you have not the ears and eyes to perceive.  It is true that there are flaming problems.  It is also true that there is health and goodness. 

How should we behave in the face of all this?  Well, again I would say we can begin with trumpeting “fornication,”  or “except for latte, basketball and great books, You would offer poor advice…” or God knows how many other hot button issues.  And we would not be heard, yet again.  Start with healing, and you will end with brothers.  Start with judgement and you will end.

[97] Posted by terebinth on 02-12-2006 at 08:31 PM • top

OK, who started the unpleasantness?  Who moved the landmarks?  It doesn’t matter if they wear funny costumes, have lofty titles, have “apostolic” succession.  If they deny Christ and His Word, then they are infidels and not worthy of fear or following.Our Apostle Paul told us this would happen in Acts 20.  ISTM that there are but three groups in ECUSA:  the unregenerate infidels who saw the benefit of taking over a grand old denomination or else are just occasional pew warmmers who are really hostil to the gospel.  Then there are the believers who due to gifts or personality are just not warriors.  They can just try to find a local parish that is true to the Gospel, train their children about the truth, and see that none of their money goes to ECSA.  If they can’t do that then they must look outside the Episcopal Church for a haven even if it is only for a temporary time.  They should not be faulted.  That leaves the believers who feel called to do battle. They must look for leadership and get their flag, generals, and strategy and either get a systametac plan to uproot the infidels or if that is impossible plan a strategic retreat, inflict pain on the enemy, deny them use of the resources, gather up the refugees and prisoners and after getting clear, fire for effect.  Some of them may pay the price of martyr.  I see some structure for resistance in the AAC, ACN and a few others.  I’m sure there are battle plans that aren’t known yet.  Whether they are successful remains to be seen, but we know God is sovereign in it all.  Episcopalians generally can’t look to the sixties left over bishops to be of any help.  They allowed this to develop.  They are presiding over a failing church that has even lost its persona as a quality, dignified upper class group.  In fact ECSA is really a laughing stock not only in the Christian community but even the non-christians.  “The thrill is gone.”  They are so dense and top waters that they probably will never know it.  This will be interesting to watch.  Meanwhile we can pray and grieve over the carnage that is already falling.

[98] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 02-12-2006 at 08:40 PM • top

Terebinth, I think I see the crux of your problem.. You think we should all forgive the ones who have denied Christ yet insist on leading the church down the road to hell.  Well it is not for us to forgive.  Only God can forgive and He has made it clear how that is to come about.  What you offer smacks of universalism and “God loves everbody and everybody is OK and will end up in heaven anyway.”  Our job is not to forgive but to warn and try to keep the poison from hurting the children and the weak and poor.  Lot tried to warn and was as one who jested.  Isiah was told to warn but that his audience would not hear and would be judged.  It would be nice if all this sin could be just overlooked and we could just get along, but faithfulness to truth prohibits it.  We are not against the infidels because they are sinners like us but because they have declared war against our Holy God and His Church.  They will harm many.  We must take our stand.  Would to God that they would come over to the truth but like Athanasius if they don’t then it is Athanasius against the world.  Kyrie Eleison

[99] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 02-12-2006 at 09:04 PM • top

OK, Terebinth, I am certainly susceptible to not having ears and eyes to perceive.  Please give us an example of our ECUSA Presiding Bishop, or any member of the ECUSA executive committee, actually preaching Jesus Christ, and Him crucified as the sole path to salvation.  Or, failing that, show us some place on the ECUSA website where this message is unashamedly, boldly proclaimed.   

You advocate healing.  OK.  I’m in favor of healing.  Let us begin by acknowledging that Jesus Christ, is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE, that no one can come to the Father except by Him, that our earth-bound intentions can avail us nothing, that we are utterly powerless and dependent on God, that our attempts at good works are futile except when they are the fruits of our faith instead of our usual feeble efforts to reason out what God would have us do, and that we are all craven sinners who deserve death but are offered life through the cross.

Show us where this message is being taught by our church leadership and the healing will have already begun.  Or would you have us compromise the fundamentals of our faith to advance the cause of, “healing.” 

Either Jesus Christ was Who He said He is, or He was not.  The Episcopal Church will either acknowledge Jesus to be the Only Son of God, or it will not.  It can offer a Gospel of Salvation by grace, or it can offer a Gospel of Salvation by doing good works.  They are incompatible Gospels.

[100] Posted by Rick H. on 02-13-2006 at 07:27 AM • top

Pr Mic:  I grieve in advance for you.  Those old, shot ‘60’s bishops are just waiting for you.  You are correct: they are entrenched. You are deluded: they are veterans.  You don’t have the resources, the depth or the strength to win but a few minor skirmishes.  I am fascinated by the OT quotes here.  Have you not heard the News?  There is a new day, and victory certainly comes but not through some sword or other. 

I am sorry, you do not come close to the crux of my problem.  My problem is the short-sightedness of the hotheads who would lead us to some Phyrric “victory.”

[101] Posted by terebinth on 02-13-2006 at 07:35 AM • top

Sorry, that should be Pyrrhic.  Almost a joke there.

[102] Posted by terebinth on 02-13-2006 at 07:38 AM • top

Terebinth:

Of course Prophet Micaiah lacks the strength to win any major battles.  Only God can do that. 

The advent of Jesus Christ does not signal the end of a need to study or heed the Old Testament.  He came to fulfill the law, not to detroy it.  As for your claim, “Have you not heard the News?  There is a new day, and victory certainly comes but not through some sword or other.” 

Jesus did come to earth in the form of a humble servant, but when He returns, it will be a little bit different:

“Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself. He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.  On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.”  Rev. 19: 11-16 (RSV).

[103] Posted by Rick H. on 02-13-2006 at 08:32 AM • top

Sarah, 

S:  “MasterServer . . . I’m wondering something.

It’s great that you’ve found a pure church in an AMiA congregation.

But why are you not able to leave ECUSA behind, in your heart?”

MS:  One may have to be in the wilderness for awhile after leaving the comfort of a home church.  The wilderness has given me a new perspective of our what our old church has become. 
S:  “If you had truly “moved on”—if you were truly not “looking back” like Lot . . . then why are you continually posting about how all the “reasserting” ECUSAns should leave yesterday?

Why is that?  Why do you suppose you haven’t yet “let go”?”

MS:  I look back to see if other families are able to get out before its total destruction.

Even though I have been able to leave Soddom, I still care for the Soddomites that may be struggling with their home church, hoping it will change, and can’t yet leave.

I know I am not the first nor the last.  I am not Lot.

S:  I’m also curious about something else.  You left ECUSA when?  Yet . . .  ECUSA has been indulging in heretical theology and practice for the past 30+ years.  So why is it that now, all of a sudden—the instant *you* leave—everyone else who is “reasserting” must now leave also.

Why is that?

MS:  Yes, I have been vaguely aware of the Spong heresy and supporters, but to me they were a distant insignificant anomoly instead of realizing they were a cancer.  The recent failure of the church to correct its homosexual errors was just the last blatant straw.  It showed me that even the mainstream clergy of ECUSA had their heads in the sand, or were ineffective in combatting the heresies, or actually supported them.

S:  Furthermore, and finally, do you ever wonder if perhaps your insistence, your burning desire, that all reasserters remaining within ECUSA should leave *now*—at the same time *you* decided to leave—and your posting at this blog constant admonitions to do so now might just possibly indicate that you yourself are less than secure and glad and joyful in your choice, looking hopefully to the bright future of your congregation rather than back to the bleak darkness of ECUSA?  That possibly you need the support of many other people’s decisions to make you feel good about your choice, to confirm it?

Just wondering . . . because that’s the way your comments might seem to other observers.  Because your constant admonitions are not helpful.  They are not helpful to us—they do not persuade.  They are not helpful to you—they do not assuage. 

Yours in faith,

Sarah

MS:  Yes, anyone making such a significant life change such as abandoning one’s church would have second thoughts, but at the same time now feel liberated, and can speak out more freely to those who care or are listening.  Our former priest refused to speak from the pulpit on the subject.  The Vestry was divided and ineffective.  There was a small group of us that objected to what was happening, but the parish did not seem to want to rock the boat.  Out of frustration, as a lay member, I saw that the most effective way I could influence our parish was to leave.  Let me be an example to those who choose to stay and be “reasserters.”  Use my life to help yourselves.  I will be watching, and I am throwing you a life line from the outside, if you will but take it.  I am no longer shackled to the sinking ship. I am sorry that you do not see how this can be “helpful” to reasserters.

If ECUSA “authority” can repent and change, I will consider coming back.

In the meantime, I have found that there are many churches out here that are doing the Lord’s work.

Maranatha!

[104] Posted by MasterServer on 02-13-2006 at 08:58 AM • top

Terebinth: A southern newspaper reporter once asked this question (regarding a political race for governor): Do you think _________ will be re-elected? The answer was: Hell, the only way he could lose would be to get caught in bed with a live man or a dead woman.

This seems to be your attitude regarding ++Griswold and the merry band at 815. It seems that the only way they could be criticised would be if they were caught drawing pentagrams on the floor at 815 or dancing naked before a golden calf. The parade of deliberate provocations from the leadership of ECUSA and the various revisionista bishops and clergy around the country continues daily yet it is the traditional orthodox believers who are singled out as being unloving and schismatic.

What the hell are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to do like the fraternity pledges in Animal House and sing out “Thank you sir, I’ll have another” whenever they were hit on the ass with a paddle? Why is it the people who are angered and dismayed by the various provocations are taken to task rather than the ones who provoked them to start with? Inquiring minds want to know.

FYI: I get along just fine with people of all political, theological, and sexual persuasions. I continue to believe that all should be welcome in the church. Love the sinner but not the sin is my motto.

the snarkster

[105] Posted by the snarkster on 02-13-2006 at 10:37 AM • top

Snark: “it is the traditional orthodox believers who are singled out as being unloving and schismatic.”  I hope that’s not me you are accusing of slamming you.  There is little love and lots of schism coming from 815 these days.

Those are 815’s great points of vulnerability.

I did say and I do believe that a “campaign” against 815 based on a military assault model will fail, making the “attackers” look foolish and ineffective.  This is not a slam, it’s my opinion on tactics.  I think there is ample evidence to support my opinion.  Further I think an underground, stealth, guerilla—whatever you want to call working from within until it tips—effort is truly “What the hell are we supposed to do.”  It will not be quick.  It will not make a lot of famous heroes.  It will require steady, directed and sharp efforts.  Fish swimming in the stream, as Ho Chi Minh used to say.

[106] Posted by terebinth on 02-13-2006 at 12:23 PM • top

Terebinth: Forgive me if I seem dense but I am really having a hard time ascertaining exactly where you stand. Your last post seems to put you squarely with the traditional orthodox but some of your other posts seem to point the other way. Or I may just be dense and misreading you entirely. Enlighten me, s’il vous plait.

FYI: I myself am solidly traditional orthodox. I have left my outrageously revisionista parish but, as yet, I have found no place to hang my hat on Sunday morning (or any other time). I maintain a very slim hope that my ex-parish and ECUSA will come to their senses. I may as well believe in the tooth fairy, though, as ECUSA’s transmission does’t seem to have a reverse gear.

the snarkster

[107] Posted by the snarkster on 02-13-2006 at 12:49 PM • top

I really have a lot of trouble with these currently vogue labels.  “Traditional orthodox” for example.  Is it a redundancy, or which tradition do you mean?  Anyway the labels matter less than the goals:
1.  Reestablish ECUSA into the mainstream of scripture based, evangelistic Anglicanism.  A lot of theological work to be done here, I expect at the seminaries.
2.  Refresh ECUSA’s governing approach to be lay directed, reflective of divergent views, and critical of materialistic society.
3.  Bring ECUSA back to the forefront of global Anglicanism.  Unfortunately this has historically been done with $$, which will have to be repaired and spirituality substituted.

Quick and easy, right?  My guess is we are talking a couple of generations.  Snark I am sorry you have left.  It is easy for me to say you shouldn’t have, but I’m not there and don’t know how bad your alternatives apparently are.  I consider my standards to be very high, and I am in a great church which generally isn’t bothered by the current difficulties because we have plenty of more important things to do.  I am also in the process of finding like churches to aggregate into a healthy platform from which we can start fishing.  Network can’t work for us.

[108] Posted by terebinth on 02-13-2006 at 01:31 PM • top

Terebinth: Unfortunately, I don’t have “generations” to wait. I am way out on the wrong side of 50 years old and I would, at the least, like to be buried in a church whose theology does’t make me want to toss my cookies. There are indeed a lot of important things out there that need doing but I shouldn’t have to give up all I believe in to do them.

I would also like a church that has to something to offer my children. They are all cradle Episcopalians who were brought up in my revisionist ex-parish. Unfortunately, I perceived what was going on in my parish and ECUSA too late.
My children were so disillusioned by the vacuous crap our youth programs were feeding them that they no longer attend church at all.

I am glad that you are safe and happy where you are. There are a lot of out here who are not. Pray for us.

the snarkster

[109] Posted by the snarkster on 02-13-2006 at 01:57 PM • top

Snark: I am cradle ECUSA from way back.  My parents left during Vietnam, when the local dean showed his ass while my brother was a captive.  You see, this is not new.  I have been a member of 7 ECUSA churches, one in New Hampshire in 1965-70 where I can assure you they have made great progress with Robinson.  I didnt belong anywhere for years myself, actually that was after NH.  Anyhow, as I say the problems are deep but the soluton lies with a competent laity.  We have been trampled.  So strengthen your weak knees, and lift up your arms, and make straight the path you walk; then the injured limb will not be broken, but will grow strong again. (Heb 12:13)

[110] Posted by terebinth on 02-13-2006 at 08:02 PM • top

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