I dont know what I can do to improve on what you have already said and suggested here.

But I want to comment on something that you highlighted above.

I have heard many converts to Islam say that now there is nothing between God and them. No priests, no Savior blocking the view like a magic door.

You are right that this is about fundamentals. I have been shocked to learn just how many people out there see Jesus as a closed and opaque door standing in between them and God. Redding is just the most egregious example of a Christian who was allowed to go to seed under the radar, until one say, she up and says she is a muslim.

But how can God get in between God and us? How can someone depicted as being at the right hand of the Father be in our way? How can an open door block our view or bridge restrict our access? How can a priest who stands along side us as our servant model, assistant and teacher restrict or get in the way of our access to God?

It is so basic to us, but obviously we have awoken to find these fundamental teachings of Christianity redefined by some powerful and influential forces and that there are those among us who have absorbed the new definition wholesale and without question.

I like the idea of classes teaching the difference. Start young. The muslims, admittedly, do this well. Any muslim child capable of understanding and reciting can rehearse the reasons why they are Muslims and not Christians, especially in the West. We Christians have pussyfooted around the subject too long probably because we havent really had any competition until relatively recently.

There are easy ways to defend the particulars of the faith without an advanced degree in theology. Simple to remember and to defend so that anyone can do it.

Lastly, folks in the pews, especially the kids, need to know that they will not be condemned if they are tempted or challenged by the ideas of other faiths. They should be encouraged to seek the help of a priest if they do. One other common denominator in many conversions is the double-life before the “sudden” conversion in which the convert is in direct and personal contact with other muslims particularly with imams, while there is no contact or consultation with a priest or pastor.

Our priests are smart men. They can respond to the claims of Islam simply by unapologetically and knowledgably believing in the claims of Christianity. There is no need to fear or be over-awed. Translating Christianese into more contemporary language would also be a bonus.

One that helped me, anyway, was faith = trust/patience and does not = intellectual abdication. It is about patience and not about giving up ever understanding Christian teaching.

Another is that salvation = freely given healing and redemption and does not = jumping through a hoop to get the prize.

Good job Greg. If this story passes under the radar as suggested then it’s time to look at the radar. Just ignore it All is Well!™

If this has already been posted sorry but here is a link to a Q&A she did through the Seattle Times regarding her position:

Here

“But I am well within the range of the opinions of faithful Christians over the years.”

Sure you are lady....

“I’m sorry that I cannot really do justice to this question (or any of them) here.”

Or anywhere for that matter.

Great post Gregg.  Naughton could have been truly silent, or he could have suggested decrying the words and actions of Redding and the Bishop of Washington, but instead he is trying to get communication directors to suppress the story.  This is very important information for those of us who are in conversation with colleagues, friends, and parishioners who inisist, “It’s not that bad.”

Every denomination gets a loony priest now and then, but only a few choose to commend such heretics as did the Olympia newspaper and Bishop.  Even fewer denominations have folks actively plotting to suppress these stories behind the scenes rather than publicly denounce them. 

But you allude to the reason for this tactic: How can they denounce them?  If Jesus is a way, but not THE way (as has been insisted upon boldly by both the PB and the Bishop of my Diocese), how can you discipline a priest who is ‘practicing both ways.’ You just can’t do it and remain consistant.  Redding is only the tip of the iceberg.  Olympia probably can’t figure out what all the fuss is about.  Poor Olympia just got the timeline jumbled up.  They thought it was safe to say these things openly now, whereas other revisionists know that these things must happen only quietly for a few more years. 

That’s the revisionist agenda.  These things must happen, but only quietly, in order to give the average, non-confrontational Episcopalian (who is, these days, a bit uneasy about all this talk about sex, but not so uneasy to open their droopy eyes) some time to fall back to sleep again.

Poor Olympia, if they’d just realized that this needed to happen quietly then in 3, 5, or 10 years (based on the political climate) they could have been able to say, “Nothing’s really changed.  That’s been happening for years.” Or, “Some priests practice multiple faiths, and some diocese are experimenting with liturgies that celebrate this inclusivity, but it would be against our polity to change that.  They are operating within the bounds of our common life, but nothing’s really changed because we haven’t authorized those rites in the BCP (yet).”

Way to go Greg.  Fantastic article.  Stand Firm at its best.  Thanks.

I have asked this question in several discussions of this article but received no answers. The liberal blogs seem to be following Mr. Naughton’s advise and avoiding the story. Does anyone have a revisionist friend or could “Open minded anglican” answer this: If one abandons 3000 years of judeo-christian thought which states that homosexuality is a sin, and one reads scripture with the “context analysis” scissors, allowing one to cut out vast swaths of the Bible dismissing it as relevant to the temporal context, then how does prevent such an inclusive church from degenerating into islamopalianism, buddhapalianism, sufipalianism, nestorpalianism, etc.???

Thanks Greg.

“Here’s a quick recap of just some of the more notable incidents:”

Though we may want to forget this, I think the Clown Eucharist episode warrants a mention:

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/mt/archives/000705.html

Greg, the examples you gave are the starkest.  However, there are loads of other example that are not as stark but nonetheless troubling.  For example, the theme of the Canadian General Synod is “Draw the circle wide.  Draw it wider still!” It is not a biblical theme.  When writing prayers for the Synod, I found few circular images in Holy Scripture, and they didn’t fit into the line of reasoning of the organizers of the event.  From their explanation, I gather the theme has to do with inclusivity and the medicine wheel. 
The medicine wheels are the stone remains of ceremonial dance and spiritual events (especially those contacting the spirit world) celebrated by the Plains First Nations people.  The remains are estimated to be 2500-3000 years old. 
A national synod is using a pagan symbol for a Christian purpose.  Holy Scripture is virtually limitless in developing themes for the church.  Why resort to a non-biblical theme?

May the Lord bless bloggers—not only is this the only way much of this stuff is getting out but also our corporate memory of what has past. Thank you Greg for this article & the site!

Can anyone give me tips on how to reformat the .pdf page to print larger type?  I can read it fine on the screen, but the 6 pt. type of the printout is barely in the range of my bifocal, my senior warden will never be able to read it.

What I am sure that [insert name of guy I don’t want to sue me] is REALLY mad about is that he didn’t know about this in advance of publication.  He would have rewritten the story to place it in northern Nigeria and used it to discredit ++Peter and his Church. He would have used ambiguous language like “a cleric connected to the cathedral in the northwest part of the country” [not mentioning which country, mind you] and then had an ally file it from an office in Abuja.  Nah, no one in TEC would ever spread a story like that, would they?  Hmmmmm..... has anybody looked around Washington for polygamous priests?  My TEC bishop must have found that story somewhere.....

Can someone please send this to all the waffling Primates who are wondering whether the Orthodox are just making a big fuss?  ...and to all the ACC folks who aren’t sure what the Orthodox in Revisionist diocese are fighting against?

Mrs. Nyssa

What would be most effective would be if someone could actually send paper copies of the diocesan newsletter to the primates (although I am guessing someone is running around Olympia and Seattle as we speak trying to burn every copy).  Is it still up on their website?

Greg - you’ve scored a “10” with this story.  Great writing.  The last paragraph of Nyssa’s comment above (http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/3831/#69000) is also must-reading.  That is exactly how this will go down in ECUSA.

The Sufi healing circle is also worthy of mention.  This took place in the same diocese which posted an invitation to the local gay-pride festival on their diocesan website and whose bishop is chair of the Standing Committee on Liturgy and Music.

Greg,
Thank you for this story.  As you and others note there are several important aspects to this story.  One is the simple fact of a woman who has clearly compromised or lost her Christian beliefs. That is tragic in itself.  Second, the MO of those in power in ECUSA expressed here as alarm that this story not get out into the limelight and further expose them. It totally exposes their goals and of course certainly further delineates +Schori’s public statements about her beliefs.  Perhaps these two women were friends during +Schori’s squid gathering days.
Another thought:  Here is a ‘Christian’ priest who has essentially converted to Islam.  The bazaars must be ringing with joyous acclaim. This furthers the ultimate goal of all Muslims which is to see the world converted to Islam.  Another interesting note:  imagine the fate of a muslim iman in Pakistan who is dicovered to have converted to Christianity!

I remember a few years ago going to Grace Cathedral in San Francisco (So I could weep at the painting of the Scottish Bishops consecrating Seabury) to hear at the fraction at Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve…

‘We break this bread for those who follow the way of the Buddah, for those who follow the teachings of Mohammed, and for those who follow the path of Judism’

I am slightly paraphrasing as I was internally screaming “NO WE DAMN WELL DO NOT!!!”

Then again what do you expect from the Cathedra of the Diocese of California, when they gave up a long time ago having the token heterosexual thrown in to be normal each year.

Been going on for a while all, why be surprised.  Roll on the Autumn.

Alasdair+

Rob-Roy - then, according to your stance, nothing must change, ever - even though there have been many changes throughout history already.
Its really quite simple - use your brain and judgment, look at the situation and consequences, and apply reason. best way to come to conclusions - beats fixed, unchanging, absolute dogmas any day.
But as you don’t want any change at all, ever, that’s fine - carry on as you are, and TEC will carry on as they are. You’ll get the odd blip (like this piece of media hype) but that is better than being permanently preserved in aspic.

Mike
Listen to this:  (or if the link is wrong go to BabyBlueOnline and listen to the account of CS Lewis’ conversion.

link

Great story, Greg (content, tone, analysis, etc).  Well-done.

I have long been telling my liberal friends that I am perfectly willing to follow them down this current path of revised thinking about human sexuality in hopes of discovering that yes Indeed that is where God is on the issue.  But I also always give the proviso that all bets are off if to get to that point I end up in what I (using insider shorthand lingo) call “Spongland” (that is, of course, where Jesus is not Lord and is not Savior, but is something other).  I go on to explain that the best shot the liberals have at convincing us conservatives to change our minds is proof that following this path leads us to the foot of the Cross (as traditionally understood).  This story is yet more reason why conservatives are naturally worried (conservative?) about following this new (liberal?) path.  Of course, I haven’t read what the bishop out there said about any of this or even if the bishop supports the new thinking on human sexualtiy (although the assumption is of course that the bishop does).  Anybody know?

guess it didn’t work, but still go to bbonline

BillC - fixed your link.

This woman is not both Christian and Muslim.  She is MUSLIM.  Muslims honor Jesus as a good example and a prophet.  She is doing no more than that (and maybe even less, if she thinks Jesus was just a good guy but not a prophet). 

To reiterate, she is simply a Muslim in the Episcopal orders.

Greg,
I know its been said already and will undoubtedly be said again, but here is mine.....GREAT JOB!!!!!  Being informed, as you and all keep us on SF is how we are able to maintain stable, educated ground and have our eyes completely open against the likes of Naughton, Redding, KJS, Beers, et al! They would (and do) put blinders on those they teach, talk to, answer to, .... which makes for a very singular way of viewing & walking!

Thank you for this great story!
FHS
DOK

Glad you wrote this Greg.  I, for one, plan to copy and distribute it at our church.  I’m especially pleased that you center in on the real disease and not just one of the ugly symptoms: that this is really all about the divinity of Christ.  The story itself is in the latest issue of TLC. But I enjoyed your comment.

Greg,
I’ve linked this story to the The Catbird Seat.  Thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this piece.
Peace,
Andy

Greg, in response to your request—“Finally, please check in on this thread and let us know what you’ve done”—I will be sending the story to about 1000 email addresses in the U.S.—almost all of them members of ECUSA.

I dearly hope that each one of them will forward it on to their friends in ECUSA.

Widening Gyre, I am puzzled by your question about the bishop of Olympia’s stance.  She is happily interviewed in the Diocese of Olympia diocesan newsletter as a good example of religious tolerance.  Furthermore, there is this passage in the Seattle News article on the story:

“Redding’s bishop, the Rt. Rev. Vincent Warner, says he accepts Redding as an Episcopal priest and a Muslim, and that he finds the interfaith possibilities exciting. Her announcement, first made through a story in her diocese’s newspaper, hasn’t caused much controversy yet, he said.”

Are you asking for further intel on this, or is there something that I am missing in your question??

This is a story about a priest who is going through a personal and spiritual crisis of confusion. She is being dealt with pastorally and in a way that protects the faithful from her confusion.

I believe that to use this story as a way of bashing the left and raising people’s anxieties and anger is inappropriate journalism as well as unfortunate blogging.

There are misfortunate extremes in all parts of the theological spectrum. When those extremes are part of an attempt to undermine the church of Jesus Christ, we identify them as such. This priest, who has been a responsible leader in the church for some time—is in the middle of a crisis and is being treated as such. If any of you follow the HoBD list, you will have noted that with one exception people from the right and the left have expressed compassion for the situation, not vitriol, and have affirmed the necessity for the church to draw its boundaries—which is happening in Olympia.

Greg:

I know the folk at Montana Anglican - I’ll ask them to post the story - although I think I like your commentary as much as the original article - so I’m probably going to ask for both.

This is a story about a priest who is going through a personal and spiritual crisis of confusion. She is being dealt with pastorally and in a way that protects the faithful from her confusion.

Then why is her confusion being celebrated in the diocesan newsletter???? Give over.  I think you’re making that one up.

This debacle is especially egregious because the bishop not only tolerates this heresy but supports it.  Furthermore, the diocese publicizes this in their newsletter.  What were they trying to accomplish?  They just had to go to the mountaintop and shout to world, “See how inclusive we are!  Aren’t we innovative and progressive?” and brag about their accomplishments in diversity.

When we have many TEC bishops inhibiting solidly Christian, orthodox priests (for joining the Anglican Communion Network, for example) on the outrageously phony basis of “abandonment of communion”, how does the Bishop of Olympia explain his failure to inhibit someone who has completely abandoned the Christian faith?

I fervently hope that it will be possible to ignore this story until it slips back beneath the radar.

No, Tom, she is not going through a “personal and spiritual crisis of confusion.” (BTW, Fr. Jake is saying the same thing at T19, so I guess 815 finally got out the talking points.)

Read the article.

She is quite happy with her situation – no distress and no confusion.  Nor are “boundaries” being drawn – good grief, boundaries to the Episcopal corporation is like holy water to a vampire – listen again to how her bishop views this fiasco:

Redding’s bishop, the Rt. Rev. Vincent Warner, says he accepts Redding as an Episcopal priest and a Muslim, and that he finds the interfaith possibilities exciting.

It would be my hope that some of the orthodox bishops(or better yet Primates) would start calling the Bishop of Olympia and TEC to task for this.
Recently while reading Ephesians 5 in Conybeare’s Epistles of Paul I ran across a bit of commentary on 5:10-11 that I believe fits what you’ve done here Greg and the occasion;commenting on the term ‘expose’ in verse 11 Conybeare brings out :’to lay bare the real character of a thing by exposing it to open scrutiny’.
Apparently the Rev Mr Naughton and his fellow revisionist blog-fellas are understandably hesitant because because like the ancient pottery merchants who hid flawed pots in darkened rooms out of the light once it’s out in the open the cracks will be seen for what they are.

We blogged it all (Greg’s investigative and a reminder about the Presbymullah) here:

http://northernplainsanglicans.blogspot.com/2007/06/wake-up-episcopalians-your-church-is.html

I have posted on this before at my blog, and my audience is primarily non-Episcopalian.  This story is important because it shows in a clear way that our concerns aren’t all about sex.

http://nastybrutish-n-short.com/blog/2007/06/all_in_the_family.html

You do not keep confused people in as pastors/priests.  You remove them until such time (if ever) as their confusion is corrected.

I notice this “spiritual crisis” theme appearing from Worthy Opposition, all kind of the same theme as if they come up with a battle plan on how to handle a crisis that she seemed bold enough to share and other joined her in celebration in the newsletter and papers a long time before this nearly unified response comes out. Sorry, I grew up in DC and know political ‘damage control’ when I see it. Pastoral care would havekept her from broadcasting it in the first place (Diocese of Olympia’s newsletter?).

TBWSF,

Yeah, publishing this confusion in the newsletter and then in the newspaper, all with the approval of the bishop. That’s controlling the problem and isolating this person.

The damage has already started. I direct your attention to the links on T19. Click on the comments page for the Seattle article. Maria, a Christian woman living in Romania and struggling with Christian teaching vs islamic teaching expresses that she finds Redding to be a inspiration and an encouragement for how one can be both Christian and Muslim without having to choose.

That is at least one train wreck already that can safely be laid at the feet of Redding and Co. This is a story that is going worldwide as we speak.

Way to keep it under wraps!

I fervently hope that it will be possible to ignore this story until it slips back beneath the radar.

I think it may be a little too late.  We have visual contact and the cockpit systems are locked on, I don’t think even James T. Kirk and Mr. Sulu would have the evasive manuveurs it would take to shake us off this one.

I just want to emphasize here that the issue of affirming homosexual practices is not just about the injury to our Christology (I know Greg does not believe that but the post almost sounds like the main issue is Christology and homosexuality is just a test case of some sort).  It’s not like we are sticking to a tired old shibboleth in the greater service of preserving the integrity of Biblical authority.  Affirming homosexual practices is deeply unwise and contrary to a Godly life in and of itself.  Among other things, it is very injurious to parents, leads directly to the absurd idea that two women (or two men) can raise children just as well as a married man and woman, all other things equal, it is psychologically injurious to the person engaging in homosexuality, and it leads to all sorts of peculiar distortions of our understanding of human sexuality in order to rationalize the conduct. 

Moreover, it is often a convenient out for men who want to get out of their marriages (I just discovered I was gay), leads confused adolescents down a primrose path from which they can often never recover as they grow into sexually mature persons, and fosters cruel power structures in especially male prison environments.  It leads to men denying their masculinity and women denying their feminity.  This is important doctrine in its own right that cuts to the heart of our human nature.

“This is a story about a priest who is going through a personal and spiritual crisis of confusion. She is being dealt with pastorally and in a way that protects the faithful from her confusion.”

Part of the problem in speaking of this woman’s ‘spiritual crisis’ Tom, is that it has been celebrated by many (such as diocesan newsletters and articles ... and hardly presented as a priest who is going ‘through a personal and spiritual crisis of confusion’.
Furthermore, since through her many statements, +Schori shares a fundamentally similar spiritual viewpoint, why is the good PB’s position not also viewed as a ‘personal and spiritual crisis of confusion’. 
This ‘crisis of personal and spiritual confusion’ seems to be shared by many, especially in the leadership, in ECUSA.  How are they being pastorally counselled?

it is often a convenient out for men who want to get out of their marriages (I just discovered I was gay),

To clarify, this is the Jim McGreevey and Bishop Robinson scenario.  Both were married men who had normal enough sex lives with women in the marriage and who later decided to get out of the marriage.  They decided that homosexual desires were an appropriate basis for divorce (or, in McGreevey’s case, adultery), and both implied the dubious proposition that they were born exclusively gay.  This convenient introspection/rationalization was belied by the facts for both cases, and this is true in many, many cases of older men who are tired of their wives and are looking for a new pleasure.

In many ways, tolerating homosexuality, in practice, degrades the covenant of marriage, a covenant which is of great importance to women.

No, some of us are hesitant because this tactic by the Grand Inquisitor tells the world much more about the Anglican right than we ever could.

Step out of line, and the self appointed thought police will be all over you.  Have a crisis of faith, and you’ll be squashed like the sub-human bug you are.

And yes, it is obviously a crisis of faith.  How could it not be?  The two traditions cannot be blended.  Someone who tries to do that is quite clearly in crisis, if they know it or not.

The quote from the bishop that the media chose to run is most unfortunate, if it is true.  The assumption that this is the only response of the bishop; that pastoral care is not being offered, reveals why this story is getting so much attention from the Anglican right; any means to your end, which is to prove that clergy in TEC are apostate, heretical, etc.  If we have to push someone further away from Jesus in order to do it, or smear the name of a bishop, so what?  The cause matters more, right? 

Continue to embarrass yourself with your self-righteous indignation, O Grand Inquisitor.  Thoughtful people know exactly what you are doing.  Next will come mass book burnings, right?

A late-comer to this conversation I tried to open the link to the Diocese of Olympia newspaper and got the message, “file damaged and cannot be repaired”.  What gives?

If you want to know want the ‘Swan of Newarks’ take on all this is, you really ought to sign up as a kibitzer on the HOBD mailing list. It’s been some fascinating, and somewhat sickening, reading lately.

“She has been dealt with pastorally”

Redding’s bishop, the Rt. Rev. Vincent Warner, says he accepts Redding as an Episcopal priest and a Muslim, and that he finds the interfaith possibilities exciting.

Pray tell, just where is pastoral guidance here?  Just who is the spiritual director for a bishop who espouses such anti-Christian behavior?  Just what ‘justice and equality’ are represented here? 

As Christopher Johnson would say, “Peace and blessings be upon them.”

Phooey!

Since I am not done e-mailing the primates, I will be changing my future messages to include this fact. I imagine it will be seen as quite significant by those leaders in countries where there is anti-Christian violence.
TBWSF: You’re going to have explain better what you’re talking about. If there was so much concern about Ms. Redding’s crisis, then she should step down from her ministerial position until she gets things worked out. If she can then wrap her mind around the concept of the Holy Trinity, she could return to the priesthood. Otherwise, she needs to renounce them.  Dave
I am going to copy the newsletter page for my Bible study group.

Fom the HoB/D:
Hello ......,
Thanks for the background information on what has been written about your diocesan colleague, Ann. I and other members of this list have been responding based on the information shared by one member of this list which came from a single source.
The information you provided is helpful, and I agree that we are in some very hot baptismal water in this church and in the Anglican Communion.  Neither of those things change my plea for a spirit of Anglican tolerance. 
This topic is only a “target” if we allow it to be a target, which was how I experienced the intent of the original post which pointed us to the story.  As I recall, the post came with the Subject Heading: “Just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse” and snickered, “As if the Penn. Druids weren’t
enough........ along comes further blaspheme
_http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html_
It was bait, pure and simple, and many of us took it hook, line and sinker. I regret that and continue to express my plea for tolerance.  How we who sit in the progressive seats of the church’s pews exhibit a tolerance for others with whom we disagree, while still holding true to the (you should excuse the expression) fundamentals of our faith, will become the prescribed measure
of tolerance we can expect from those who disagree with us.  No more, no less.
Blessings,
Elizabeth +

Continue to embarrass yourself with your self-righteous indignation, O Grand Inquisitor.  Thoughtful people know exactly what you are doing.  Next will come mass book burnings, right?

Ad hominem temper tantrum 15 yard penalty. Still forth down.

(Do you want to punt now?)

Rev Fr Woodward,
Spiritual confusion,not.To say that is no less than a feeble attempt to
and hide under the carpet a plain case of spiritual adultery,abandonment of communion/apostasy on the part of Ms Redding and the willful ‘taking part in the sin’(1 Tim.5:22)by her bishop.

Here’s the link for Montana Anglican’s article:

link

Way over the top Fr. Jake.  This blog is doing the job that the bishop didn’t do.  No way this bishop should have endorsed her “bi-religion”, which she clearly did.  Why would the diocesan magazine have featured such heresy in a positive manner?  The disgrace is totally that of the diocese and bishop, not SF.  I think we are all praying that she would return to the Christian faith… and that her bishop would remove her from ministry until she becomes a Christian.

Frances Scott: try the link again. I just got it to work, and printed out the page. Dave

I believe that to use this story as a way of bashing the left and raising people’s anxieties and anger is inappropriate journalism as well as unfortunate blogging.

So this is a matter of personal confusion and it should be dealt with in a calm, quiet way, out of the harsh glare of media scrutiny?  Fair enough.  Even priests have personal issues and we should have compassion for them.  They should be able to work out their issues in private.

But why then was this story printed in the church newsletter in the first place?  Who initially launched it into the klieg lights?  It’s a bit much to have unorthodox teaching rubbed in our faces and then be told we’re not allowed to comment.

Has there actually been a statement from the Bishop - other than a second hand quote in a newspaper ( and I don’t trust them as sources, as I have had a quote entirely made up which I supposedly said, whereas I actually said the opposite - got an apology from the paper too!)
I haven’t read anything, anywhere, which suggests that you can be both a fully-fledged Christian and Muslim, although of course there are universalist and other more syncretic approaches to faith - but from what has been reported, this is something different.
If the issue is being looked at pastorally, then I trust that means privately, not splashed over a variety of blogs.

tjmcmahon on PDF’s

1. The page is formatted to 11” x 15” which probably does result in 6 pt font when you print it to 8.5 x 11.  Take the pdf to Kinko’s (or a Kinko’s-like place) and have the print it to a tabloid size (11 x 17) sheet of paper. 

2. Copy and paste the info out of the PDF using the “Column Select Tool” into a word processor.

Mersymike, I want to know what you think.

First, when you say “this piece of media hype”, do you mean “hype” as 1 or 2? [Oxford English Dictionary: hype, noun 1 extravagant or intensive publicity or promotion. 2 a deception or hoax] Or on some other sense altogether?

Second, to what are you referring when you say “this piece of media hype”? The article itself published by the Dio of Olympia? If so, is it because you disagree the Rev. Dr. Redding? Or are you referring to Greg’s take here on the article’s significance for the larger debate/conflict? If so, why would you consider what Greg’s saying as “hype”?

Most importantly, if the article itself, in your opinion, truly doesn’t merit this much (or very much) attention, I wonder if you wouldn’t mind sharing with the rest of us why you think so. None of my questions are rhetorical--I’d sincerely like to know.

Fr Terry aka Jake,
Regarding your Grand Inquisitor comment.
People who live in glass houses
As another poster on another thread said eloquently you folks are trying to mushroom the rest of us and make us love the stench,won’t cut it though.
How come you don’t like it getting out in the open?
Don’t you trust the intelligence and discernment of your readership?

Mass book burnings?  OH BOY, let’s start with SPONG!

Fr. Jake - you can bet your bottom dollar that if you subsituted “CANA” for “Muslim”, the liberals would have been all over her like a ton of bricks, pastoral concerns be damned.

Even priests have personal issues and we should have compassion for them.  They should be able to work out their issues in private.

Not when they are proclaiming heresy in public.  Then they need to be dealt with in public by being at least temporarily (if not permanently) removed from office.  Public unrepentant sin requires a public response.

Fr. Jake - stand back from your own rhetoric for a moment and explain where you see an indication of a crisis of faith in this? She is happy. Her bishop is excited. Her diocese spreads the good news of her crisis in its newsletter.

If you want to address this in a way that means anything, start with the facts instead of rewriting them.

Jakey+:
As I have said before, Those who paint targets on their backs should not not be surprised when people shoot at them.

the snarkster

FrJake:

And yes, it is obviously a crisis of faith.  How could it not be?  The two traditions cannot be blended.  Someone who tries to do that is quite clearly in crisis, if they know it or not.

Explain - in terms of your logic and theology, why this cannot be so, Jake.  You have no standard, you have no measure of ‘right or wrong’ therefore, why CAN’T you be both Muslim and Christian OR atheist? 

Interesting that you think there is some line she has crossed - interesting indeed.

TBWSF

There are misfortunate extremes in all parts of the theological spectrum. When those extremes are part of an attempt to undermine the church of Jesus Christ, we identify them as such.

Like, let’s say - stating that Jesus is only ONE way to Heaven.

I thought Greg WAS identifying that!

“because there will first be a falling away from the faith, and the revelation of the man of sin, the son of destruction...”

Let no (wo)man lay a foundation other than Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone.

Marantha!

FrJake:

“Mass Book Burnings”

Oh, targeting Catholics are we?  How insensitive!

As a member of the Diocese in question I need to point out a few things:
First, this is the Diocese of Olympian, the western part of the State of Washington, just west of the Cascades.  Many folks confuse it with the Diocese of Washington which consists of Washington D.C. and parts of Maryland (I think) on the East coast.
Second, Bishop Warner does support Dr. Redding.  He thinks her conversion is exciting.
Third, Dr.. Redding was laid off from the staff at St. Mark’s, the Cathedral for the Diocese (whose Canon is a non-celibate homosexual priest.) where she had been the Director of Faith Formation (!!!) for a few years.  (She was laid off because the Cathedral couldn’t meet its budget--this is the cathedral that pays its Canon over $200K per year). 
Fourth, Dr. Redding had written an article in the Diocesan Newsletter , the Voice, in Feb. asking if Jesus was the only way to God.  Again, the position was part of the diocesan news paper so at least tacitly endorsed by the Bishop.  (By the way, that article did NOT go unnoticed--my letter in opposition to her position was published in March.)
This is nothing new in this diocese--one I’ve often described as “left of Left!”
I know of a couple of orthodox folks who are writing both the bishop and the Voice.  But I doubt that will do much.  First, the deadline for the July Voice was the Monday after the June Voice came out--on Saturday!  Second, the Bishop--and the Suffragan--have to date not responded to any letters sent them. 
I do think going national is the right idea.  And maybe international.

Fr. Jake, why do you maintain this must be a crisis of faith?  You and I agree the two “traditions” are not compatible, but there are many people, and many Episcopalians, who have no problem with this type of syncretism.  Far from being a crisis, it’s seen as a mark of intellectual enlightenment.  I’m certain you know this.

And yes, it is obviously a crisis of faith.  How could it not be?  The two traditions cannot be blended.

Via Media, my dear pastor.  VIA MEDIA !  :D

Terry (Jake the snake) Martin: And yes, it is obviously a crisis of faith.  How could it not be?

How judgemental of you!  How can you attack this obviously happy and enlightened woman—someone you don’t even know—as being in “crisis”?

This probably belongs in the thread on WO, but since the Ur-text is here, I’ll see whether it lasts, or not:

Comment deleted as off topic.  Future violations will result in banning.
Commenatrix

First, as Christians, we should take Tom’s post seriously and demonstrate charity toward the priest.  That much should be a no-brainer. 

Second, Tom and Jake, I was glad to see you both affirm the reality that we in TEC cannot be tolerant of ALL beliefs, at least with respect to those of our bishops and priests. 

Third, Tom and Jake, I am interested in your take on the diocesan story itself (read out any background information you may know).  I think it is fair to say that the article itself gave no indication that Ann was experiencing a crisis of faith and more importantly gave no indication that the diocese (and the bishop) were anything other than supportive of Ann’s statements.  So to cry foul when people raise questions about what in the heck is happening out there is a bit much, although I perfectly understand how your personal interactions with folks on the right might influence your response. 

Fourth, Sarah, after my post I read the full newsletter, which was certainly interesting.  My question though was about the bishop’s position on human sexuality.  The assumption is of course that the bishop supports the new developments based on the bishop’s apparent lack of concern over a priest making the statements attributed to Ann in the article (liberal is as liberal does, says Forrest). 

Fifth, which brings us back to Tom and Jake, I realize your opinions of the conservatives are shaped by those who often yell the loudest, but as one who tries not to yell, I hope you hear this:  what troubles the conservatives in TEC is not, is not, is not, the new approach to human sexuality but the apparent adoption of a new approach to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.  If you hope to reach out to us, you should say two things.  “First, I understand why you are worried that TEC seems to be changing the traditional understanding of Christ as Lord and Savior.  Things like this story certainly suggest some truth in your concern.  But second, please don’t make the faulty assumption that those championing the new understading of human sexuality want to change anyone’s views of Christ.  He is and forever shall be OUR Lord and Savior.  Let’s go get a cheeseburger and talk about it.”

Fr. Jake - all the evidence available suggests that you are guilty of gross misrepresentation of the facts.  The issue is not so much what Redding believes as the episcopal and diocesan response to her, as one of their priests.  The evidence does NOT reveal - as you claim - a pastoral attempt to help a confused person deal with a crisis in faith.  That might be what you would like to spin it as, but it is not the truth.

Rather we see Redding happy and confident in what she believes, we see her diocese and bishop applauding Redding’s belief system and providing her with a forum in which she can publicize her views to the diocese as a whole.  We see one of the leading TEC communications officers counseling the deliberate suppression of this news story, and when that fails, we see an absurd line of defense provided by liberal bloggers that doesn’t fit the facts.

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  Sorry Fr. Jake - it isn’t going to happen again.

BrotherQ - except that WO doesn’t require a profound alteration of the lordship of Jesus Christ.  Not every theological development that you don’t like can be lumped with homosexuality.

Now get you over to the lengthy WO posting section with the exceedingly long posts.  I’ll not be joining you.

I haven’t read anything, anywhere, which suggests that you can be both a fully-fledged Christian and Muslim,

MM,

I’m so very disappointed that you have suddenly become a rigid exclusivist.  As you yourself wrote in another discussion today:

no, too rigid, doesn’t take enough account of the reality of diversity. Try again?

If natural law is too rigid, why should we be bound by the rigidly narrow boundaries of non-contradiction?

Please take the WO discussion to the threads set up to contain them.

Problem solved! I was able to download and print both the Olympia newsletter article and the seattel Times article from t19!

So, where is the response from 815?  Are their enforcers too busy breaking the kneecaps of bishops who don’t approve of women’s ordination to have a little sit-down with the Bishop or Olympia?

Greg’s article is on target.  Stated another way, “If you can’t believe what the Bible appears to say about homosexual activity, how can you believe what the Bible appears to say about Christ, the Resurrection and the forgiveness of sin?”

FrJake claims Rev. Redding is having a “crisis of faith.”

Nope.  If, for example, she were holding deep personal doubts about Christian claims for Jesus as against the Muslim view, while continuing to teach basic Christian doctrine in her official capacity, that would be a personal crisis—as would, for example, holding deep personal doubts about basic Christian sexual ethics while continuing to teach it.

But to smarm over this conflict by simply denying or ignoring the teaching of the church is in both cases at best heresy and at worst apostasy.

I can say that in all sincerity, WG.  And I will:

First, I understand why you are worried that TEC seems to be changing the traditional understanding of Christ as Lord and Savior.  Things like this story certainly suggest some truth in your concern. 

But second, please don’t make the faulty assumption that those championing the new understanding of human sexuality want to change anyone’s views of Christ.  He is and forever shall be OUR Lord and Savior.  Let’s go get a cheeseburger and talk about it.

You’re buying, right?

I can’t speak for others, only for myself.  Jesus Christ is my Lord and my Savior.  There is no other.

The clergy person in question may have been drawn to some of the very positive attributes of Islam; the high ethical standards, the challenging of capitalism, the discipline of prayer, and the demand of full submission to God.  The obvious difficulty is the role of Jesus, who in that tradition is a prophet, not a manifestation of the divine.  The two cannot be blended, and I think we harm both traditions when we try to merge them.

No, it should have not become public.  It is a pastoral concern.  I’ll not participate in furthering the mistake of those who chose to make it public by saying anything about it. 

My point here has been that the harsh condemnation is pushing this clergy person, and those who may be struggling with similar questions, further from Jesus and closer to Islam. 

BTW, I like “Jake the snake"… goes with my logo.  But I continue to wonder why others use my other name...do you think you’re “outing” me, and so causing me some personal harm by doing so?  Let me save you the trouble.  As I’ve admitted publically, I am Terry Martin, an eccentric priest with a bad attitude who is working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

And the product of that sort of thinking is fundamentalism or literalism. Fine if that’s your thing....but its a very rigid, inflexible approach, similar to any other belief in a ‘grand theory’ which claims to be above criticism and analysis.

...its busy - the above in response to Vinnie

MerseyMike:

In the words of Mr. Bennett of Pride and Prejudice -

“Of what are you speaking?  I have not the pleasure of understanding you?”

the demand of full submission to God

In what way is this different from Christianity?

Yes, it’s a pastoral concern - assuming there is anyone at home to address it. When it is instead cause of excitement to those who should address it, it then becomes cause for concern in the larger church.

I like “Jake the snake”… goes with my logo.  But I continue to wonder why others use my other name...do you think you’re “outing” me, and so causing me some personal harm by