VOTING BY ORDERS IN THE HOD ON B033
VOTE RESULTS
LAY: yes 77.4 no 21. divided 11 carried
CLERGY: yes 75.8 no 24 divided 10 carried
RESOLUTION B033: CARRIED
It is 9:42 am and I am here live from the floor of the House of Deputies. I got here early this morning to claim a seat right up front in the press box. I have a great view of everything from here. My fear is that someone will happen along and notice that I do not report for the New York Times, Washington Post, or ENS and cast me out to make room for the big boys.
But perhaps I look both clerical and official enough with my collar and jacket to avoid the bouncers.
This will be the spot for your live thread coverage of the special joint session of the House of Bishops and the House of Deputies this morning.
If you have not yet read Greg Griffith’s notice, please do. We have an incredible amount of traffic. Yesterday and the day before we crashed the site. Today we are hoping to avoid that by simultaneously posting the same live coverage on both the main Stand Firm site and the alternate site. For instructions and directions, again, be sure to read Greg’s site.
Interesting news: I just learned from a deputy that both revisionist and orthodox leaders were approached last night by TEC leaders with a strong appeal for compromise. These leaders hope to peal enough people away from either wing to strengthen the middle and push through a compromise.
We’ll see how this pans out.
The Eucharist has ended and the floor is starting to fill. There is a constant stream of deputies and bishops filing past the press box toward their designated deputation tables.
Our friend from Integrity, the Rev. Caro (Greg published a very good article she recently penned articulating, with great fairness and accuracy, the orthodox position for her readers) is to my right. Sarah Dylan Breuer from the Witness to my left.
The room is almost completely full. There is a great deal of tension as you might imagine.
The press box faces the deputations from Taiwan, Western North Carolina, and New Jersey. If I get a chance to look up once the circus begins I’ll let you in on my observations.
The presiding bishop (Griswold) has arrived and is getting situated on the dais. Dean Warner is at the podium. The room is not nearly in order. The deputies and bishops are milling, the press is gaggling, there’s a low rumbling din of activity. A deputy approaches our table with a bag of balloons. He blows one up and shapes it into the shape of a “lameth poodle” and gives it to a reporter.
He seems to be working his way down the line.
I don’t want a balloon. I want clarity.
Sarah:
Let me set the stage a bit.
At the back of the very large hall, there is the visitors gallery, which consists of about 700 chairs. To the right of the visitor's gallery are some booths for deputies to pick up information. To the right and front of those booths is the place for the alternates who are siting and listening, but not allowed on the floor [unless a deputy passes their vote on to an alternate].
In the front of the visitor's gallery is the deputies gallery. About 850 people. That gallery has been "augmented" by the bishop, who is sitting at the end of each deputation's table for this joint session.
At the front, of course, is the speaker's podium and a table behind the podium for various people. To the left of the deputies area is the press area, where our fearless Matt resides. And also there is a gallery for the Executive Council of the Episcopal church.
I have heard that the bishops will be making a presentation of some sort, and that they will leave at some point. But I have no idea of when.
The house is coming to order. The Chair is calling for the chaplain. The rev. Jennifer B. Burrows
The PB takes the chair:
++PB: When I became your PB I called us to conversation. Ipointed out the word conversation and conversion come from the same root. By conversion I did not mean one point of view capitulating to another, rather in seeing Christ in one another. Not a change of mind but a change of heart. As part of our response to the WR we have passed A159. We have also passed 166 supporting a process of covenant development. However, unless there is a clear perception on the part of our AC brothers and sisters that they have been taken seriously, there will be no conversation and the bonds of affection will be further strained. We will not see Christ in each other. For our voices to be heard there must be a clear sense that the voices of the Communion have been heard. Conversation works. There have been occasions in the primates meetings when I have had to receive before I could give. Humility is not easy. It does require at times restraint so that something larger can happen, when stepping backwards can in reality be a step forward.
Some of us believe restraint means denigrating our gay bretheren. Others believe that no restraint will compromise our ties with the world. Both sides want clarity and both therefore strangely vote together.
But relinquishment means taking steps together to allow for future conversations. I want our 26th presiding bishop to have an opportunity to be at the table and participate in AC conversatons.
What we yearn for has not been reflected in what we have done thus far. WE must act in concert with one another. AS your presiding bishiop and chief pastor I ask you to consider the following resolution”
He read too fast, here’s what I caught:
The 75th gene
Recieve and embrace the WR’
Call upon standing committees…to exercise restraint in consecrating people whose manner of live may pose a difficulty in the AC.
He prays and then ends the joint session. Apparently both houses will consider this resolution separately.
Greg can you work on getting that full text up asap…
I was just directed to the Anglicans United website where a transcript from ++Schori’s
Is printed, check out this paragraph:
“Whether its my bank account or my sense of control. Unless we can make sense of the blood of the cross, we will live in fear. That bloody cross brings new life into the world. That sweaty, bloody, tear-stained cross bears life. Our mother Jesus [yes, folks. That is what she said.] gives new birth to a new creation and we are his children.”
Okay, the joint session has ended and now the floor is bereft of bishops only the deputies are here.
They are working through a number of housekeeping issues.
Okay, thanks to Baby Blue and the commenters we have the full text:
Resolution B-033
Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, that the 75th General Convention receive and embrace The Windsor Report's invitation to engage in a process of heaing and reconcilation; and be it further
Resolved, that this Convention therefore call upon Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction to exercise restraint by not consenting to the consecreation of any candidate to the episcopate whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion.
Warner: The resolution presented by the PB has not been perfected by the HOB but is the text of the resolution that has been presented.
They are proceeding to elect someone to something
Dispatch. If you turn to your daily calendar for today, based on recommendations from committee chairs I am endeavoring to give us a starting point for resolutions that have priority. Most of the resolutions you see are concurrences, if we vote in favor we will not see them.
I move that all legislation be moved to consider a special motion
Russell: SD I would like propose an amendment to the motion to suspend the rules
Chair: this motion is not amendable,
????: If we pass this order what will happen for us to consider B033.
Dispatch: it is my intent to give the house advance warning about what is coming up. There are a number of other resolutions to be considered. I would suggest that we have almost 40 other resolutions here. IF we could deal with these expiditiosly we can move on to other matters.
Chair: It will be a 2/3rds vote to bring it before the house when it comes
Call:
Passed unanimously, rules suspended.
Okay:
Here's the deal. They have decided to move this resolution in the HOB first and then send it to the HOD. Realizing this I've just run over to the HOB and I am live. They are in recess now, rewriting B033 after some debate. They will return from recess and present the reworked text.
Sarah will stay down in the HOD to cover what is taking place down there. This way, we'll miss nothing.
PB: Please sit down. I am going to go back to what I said in the joint session. We are trying to deal with something that does not easily fit into a legislative process. Hopefully we can maneuver through this in a way that does not make us victims. Frankly of we are not finished by lunch we will have nothing. And frankly if we have nothing we will likely not be invited to lambeth. We need something clear.
We reordered the resolution. We should read this first so that people have an idea how it has been reordered.
This how it is now:
Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, that the 75th General Convention receive and embrace The Windsor Report's invitation to engage in a process of healing and reconciliation; and be it further
Resolved, that this Convention therefore call upon Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction to exercise restraint by not considering the consecration of any candidate to the episcopate whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion.
I so move
Seconded
+Johnson: I have a friendly amendment
++PB: I would rather not deal with friendly amenders
+Johnson then I move we strike “by not” and put “in”
Second:
discussion
This how it would be:
Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, that the 75th General Convention receive and embrace The Windsor Report's invitation to engage in a process of healing and reconciliation; and be it further
Resolved, that this Convention therefore call upon Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction to exercise restraint in considering the consecration of any candidate to the episcopate whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion.
Chair: this is how it reads already?
No, it doesn't
(various voices of protest)
+Wolf: I would like to call the question
PB: what is the motion?
+Wolf: I don’t know but whatever it is, I want to call it.
the nature of the motion is clarified
++PB: I call the question
Motion fails:
+Chane: I move we insert the words “in considering" so that it reads:
Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, that the 75th General Convention receive and embrace The Windsor Report's invitation to engage in a process of healing and reconciliation; and be it further
Resolved, that this Convention therefore call upon Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction to exercise restraint in considering consent to the consecration of any candidate to the episcopate whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion.
+Shori: I heard a reference to one body and one mind. This reminds me of conjoined twins. One cannot ethically split conjoined twins unless they are both able to live separately and healthily. As much as I feel very hurt with those who are working for full inclusion I think we need to support the original resolution so that we do not kill either twin.
Call the question:
second
vote
+Chane’s motion fails
Call the question on the resolution:
Vote
Resolution passes
B033 sent to dispatch in this form:
Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, that the 75th General Convention receive and embrace The Windsor Report's invitation to engage in a process of healing and reconciliation; and be it further
Resolved, that this Convention therefore call upon Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction to exercise restraint by not consecrating of any candidate to the episcopate whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion.
. Apperently before I got here, there was a call for a roll call vote. This motion was denied from the chair. +Springfield walked out.
Source tells me most of the orthodox bishops have walked out to write a minority report
Developing….
Just to be clear the "minority report" news above has not been confirmed. I'm just letting you in on what I know when know it.
I’m back in the house of deputies where the perfected version of B033 will arrive from dispatch shortly
Dispatch: I move we interrupt the order of business to receive a special message from the HOB
Chair: B033 has been adopted.
Dispatch: Upon receipt of a message from the HOB that message may be referred to committee or brought directly to the floor. I move that it be brought to the floor without reference to a committee
Second
Call
Vote: Passed with scattering of No’s
Dispatch: I move to suspension of rule 28 as it would apply to the HOB B033: This is the rule that does not allow the same matter to be considered after a motion to reconsider has failed.
Second:
That is debateable and not amendable....
discussion:
Bird: In regard to suspending rules, this is the langauge of A161. This was defeated as well as the motion to reconsider. I do not know why this can be reconsidered.
Chair: we are moving a suspension of that rule.
Coyle: I believe that Roberts rules call for a unanimous consent of the body covered when you want to reconsider a matter that has been lost
Bass: Point of order. This situation comes under two circumstances. Either that mentioned by deputy coyle OR if that does not apply then we come under rule 31 B which says that nothing should be reconsidered unless it be completely reworked. In either case a call for this by 2/3rds is out of order.
Chair: I will turn to the parliamentarian for clarification
Parliament: the feeling was that you are correct. This cannot be considered twice. We are relying instead on the phrase “nor any question of like import” considering this as a motion on a suspension of a rule so that it would be up to the house as to whether it considers the issue
Heel: I speak in favor of suspending the rules. Do not stop us from dealing with this issue. The attempt to stop this is unfair.
Crump: I point to rule 31B7 (he repeats the same thing that the other speakers have said)
Parlimentarian: B033 has not been through this house yet and has not been amended
????: we have been through this over and over again
????: I am tired of this house being hijacked by the extremes. LEt us deal wiht this! (applause)
Thompson: Rules are made for people. I consider the coming of our bishops as special appeal to all of us to reconsider a matter of import to the whole communion. Let us not be legalistic.
Heddon: I want to add to what was spoken. I believe the PB in calling us together really feels strongly and I think we need to honor that. It would be a slap.
????: I speak in favor of the motion. I feel like I have been manipulated into a corner by people who are far more intelligent than I when it comes to parliamentary procedures. Please stop messing with the rules to forward your own agendas
Allen: I am 31. My wife is 28 wks pregnant. I am tired of being bullied around this house. We have a responsibility to hear this out. I want to leave here and say the church I serve as a priest has decided to leave here together and continue the conversation. We are a pregnant church we are bearing the light of Christ. It cannot be the choice of this house to enact schism. I refuse it.
Call the question:
Second
Vote: It passes
Discussion is over.
Call Question on the move to suspend rules
Vote
Rule suspended
Moving on to consider the question of B033
Dispatch: propose 30 minutes. Each speaker two minutes, alternating views where possible: I move this order
second
Vote: this special order carries
Chair: I have the prerogative to invite a special guest to join us. ++Schori has indicated a wish to speak wiht us. I am uncomfortable making that choice without imput from you. Shall we invite her?
Yes is loudest (not a vote)
I will issue that invite
Chair: I have a list of speakers
Crew: I speak in opposition to this resolution. I wish I could do otherwise. I am thankful for this convention dealing with hard issues. I am particularly thankful to those who are my friends bt who disagree. I speak against this because the resolution is like cutting the tongue out of the HS. I believe in the HS. I believe in the bible. And I believe in the HS. That does not mean that I am right about what the HS says. But it does mean that you cannot tell me that I cannot listen. I urge defeat of this resolution.
Bradburry: Yesterday I voted in favor of A161 at the request of a remarkable member of this house. I am ashamed of that vote but I did it. 161 was defeated. We have been sent a different version that does some of what 161 did. But it does not target gay people the way the other one did. I don’t like this resolution but I can live with it. I can give it to the PB and say tell the AC this is what we have to offer.
Cabell: I oppose this resolution. Three years ago we carefully and prayerfully considered and then consented to VGR’s election following the HS. In this resolution we are saying we will refrain from following the HS. I cannot imagine what the church would look like if it had agreed to do something like this. I also know there are many provinces who are more than willing to work with us. I also know that there are others who will not work with us no matter what we do.
I urge defeat.
Bear: I rep the mushy middle though I am a liberal theologically. I feel the WR commends us for the process we went through in the process of WO. It is my hope that we will pass this res so we can do the same thing with this issue. Let us take the high ground
Chair: Our guest is here and she will speak:
PB elect: I thank you for your invite. Yesterday the bishop of LA spoke eloquently of living in a church with two minds and as he was speaking an image arose in my mind, the image of conjoined twins. Two bodies in one being. And when they wrestle with separating the twins, doctors recognize it is wrong unless both can live full lives. We are in a church like that. This creature, this body is not wholly one and is not wholly two. The resolution that stands before oyu is far from adequate but it is the best we are going to do. I am fully committed to the full inclusion of gays and lesbians. I do not understand this resolution as slamming the door. And if you adopt this we must work with all our might to find a common mind. This is not easy to say to you but I think it is the best we are going to manage.
Chair: everybody breath
Linder: I rise to speak in favor of our full acceptance of this resolution without amendment. Our PB elect has spoken with clarity about what it will take for us to remain in communion with the AC. I think the great thing about our polity is that people of great difference can sit at the same table and in the tension new truths emerge
Clark: I request a vote by orders: SC, Quincy, FT Worth and CFL: on the perfected resolution
????: This resolution tears me to the core of my being but as a gift to our PB elect I think we should adopt without our amendment.
Meyers: It is difficult to speak against this resolution and yet I do in its current form. I could ask us to act with consideration and with a time limit. tHe wR speaks of the ordination of women as a model of process. That is not true. It happened because people stepped forward boldly without fear. We must do the same. Vote against this.
Dyson: When I am counseling couples anticipating marriage, they will know that their relationship matures when they express what they are ready to give rather than what they want. That is like the Christian community. A sign of maturity si when we are ready to compromise. Our relationship is suffering and it is in serious trouble. Before it becomes irreconcilable we need to step back and see that what is in the best interest of thewhole is God’s church. I am asking us to subordinate our personal needs for the sake of the community.
Lambert:2003 the HOB sent the consent to VGR first to the HOD and then they voted. Now when they send us A161. We defeated it. They were shocked. Now they send this again. Our polity does not allow us to respond in a way that will disrupt the relationship between bishops and deputies. Let them lead us.
Palmore: I wish to raise 2 realities
1. there are gays and lesbians who are not ECUSAns who may not have the voice they would have in this Church
2. This church has embraced the listening process which includes listening to homosexuals throughout the communion
This res will facilitate and ensure the listening process.
Spencer: I will oppose this resolution because it is not even in the ballpark or even the parking lot of the ballpark of the WR. It does nothing to address the specific issues. My feeling is that we are tossing half a carrot to our friends in the communion as if they are not intelligent enough to see it. IT comes close to the peak of hypocrisy
Reed: I was embarrassed by the actions of this house yesterday, the arrogance. I was ashamed that we would not at all consider listening to our brothers and siters who have invited us into a process. I urge us to set aside our personal agendas. We must tell our bretherent hat we need them. We need to tell our leaders that we are humble and listening. If you are in the middle and you feel manipulated, rise up.
????: offer an amendment. After the word “church,” add “until GC2009” I find this resolution heartbreaking and it breaks for all the gay and lesbian people who have been such an important part of this church. I cannot imagine what my church would look like without the voices of these people. I propose this amendment as a way of offering some hope for us that the distilling of these voices in the wider church…
Missed a speaker….
Wade: I rise to speak against the amendment. This resolution can be tacked on to every resolution of this convention.
Forrester: I speak against this amendment. The truth is that Gene like Jesus embodies the truth because of his way of life. Jesus way of life is a sacrament.
Tech problems:
Stanley of Newark: The HS has been guiding this church in the realization of a new trith. I am frustrated that our family members of the AC have not participated in this conversation..By this amendment I hope that we can say to them that yes we are going to be in amendment with them.
Point: I call the question on this amendment and the main motion
All in favor:
Debate is terminated.
Called on the amendment
Vote: No’s have it: The amendment is defeated
Question called on B033:
Voting by orders is proceeding
This is it
VOTE RESULTS
LAY: yes 77.4 no 21. divided 11 carried
CLERGY: yes 75.8 no 24 divided 10 carried
RESOLUTION B033: CARRIED
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It would be interesting to see which orthodox leaders were targeted. I can only pray that the orthodox leaders are not pursuaded to vote for a compromise. It would be a compromise on a compromise (Windsor) and thus meaningless in terms of real reform. It would be worse than no resolution at all, because it would mislead and confuse. Posted by Going Home on 06-21-2006 at 08:05 AM [link]
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How can the orthodox compromise something of this importance? Compromise, it seems to me, is the placing of hands over the eyes while allowing business as usual to take place here in the US. Posted by Jerry on 06-21-2006 at 08:07 AM [link]
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We can compromise on the language. We could change “moratorium” to “immediately cease,” “Halt,” or “cease and desist.” Those are good compromises that I think the Communion can accept. Posted by Milton Finch on 06-21-2006 at 08:12 AM [link]
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I pray that a compromise does not occur. It is not deserved, it is not honest, it denies the clarity which many (on both liberal and orthodox) are demanding and I’d hate to see those I admire and support with all my heart give in to the big fudge. Posted by Bill C on 06-21-2006 at 08:15 AM [link]
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I’m sorry but I see nothing of Matt’s post on the backup site. Posted by Jerry on 06-21-2006 at 08:16 AM [link]
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Likewise I’m not seeing Matt’s posts (new ones) on the backup. Posted by GL+ on 06-21-2006 at 08:24 AM [link]
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Just called Griffith, he says he has posted them. I’ll try to follow up on this… Posted by Matt Kennedy on 06-21-2006 at 08:26 AM [link]
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Ox, I am with you. Did we mean it when we said we were praying for clarity? Posted by Going Home on 06-21-2006 at 08:32 AM [link]
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The backup site is working fine: http://www.standfirminfaith.blogspot.com. REMEMBER: IF YOU WERE BORN IN AN EVEN-NUMBERED YEAR, GO TO THE BLOGSPOT SITE!!! Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-21-2006 at 08:37 AM [link]
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It’s like when I tell my son “no, and I mean it”. If he tries to negotiate with me, and I waffle, he has learned that I don’t mean what I say. It is hard to stand firm when he starts whinning, saying that I am the meanest mom ever, and crying. That is when I need strength and conviction to stick with my resolve. May God grant strength and conviction to those who are standing firm on His word today. Posted by Pam C. on 06-21-2006 at 08:40 AM [link]
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Thought everyone might want to know… the clouds have rolled in and it’s thundering outside… Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-21-2006 at 08:41 AM [link]
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Matt+
Posted by gdb in central Texas on 06-21-2006 at 08:43 AM [link]
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The difference between Stand Firm and TEC is that Stand Firm has a Pope named Greg who can order people around. No lack of clarity here! Posted by Wilson on 06-21-2006 at 08:44 AM [link]
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While I’ve been waiting for Matt and Sarah to post what’s going on during the Joint Sission, I came across this: http://gencon06.classicalanglican.net/ Lord have mercy. Posted by JMAC on 06-21-2006 at 08:45 AM [link]
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JMAC-
Who would know that rabbits can sense impending heresy. Posted by Rick Killough on 06-21-2006 at 08:49 AM [link]
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Baby Blue has the resolution over at her site. Posted by Milton Finch on 06-21-2006 at 08:50 AM [link]
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In all that has happened the last ten day; in all the tension between the orthodox and progressives; in all the unease her election is bound to produce in the Primates ... she preaches about ‘mother Jesus’. Christ have mercy. Posted by Jerry on 06-21-2006 at 08:51 AM [link]
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Resolution B-033 Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, that the 75th General Convention receive and embrace The Windsor Report’s invitation to engage in a process of heaing and reconcilation; and be it further Resolved, that this Convention therefore call upon Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction to exercise restraint by not consenting to the consecreation of any candidate to the episcopate whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion. Posted by Milton Finch on 06-21-2006 at 08:57 AM [link]
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Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, that the 75th General Convention receive and embrace The Windsor Report’s invitation to engage in a process of heaing and reconcilation; and be it further Resolved, that this Convention therefore call upon Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction to exercise restraint by not consenting to the consecreation of any candidate to the episcopate whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion. This is very carefully written so to allow the revisionists to interpret what “challenge to the wider church” means and to point out regardless that it wasn’t intended to be binding. It accomplishes nothing. I will be very disappointed if orthodox leaders vote for it, but I know some will. Posted by Going Home on 06-21-2006 at 08:58 AM [link]
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“Lay down our need for power and control, and bow to God’s image in the weakest, poorest and most excluded.” This sounds like +Schori is calling ECUSA to idolatry. Posted by JMAC on 06-21-2006 at 08:59 AM [link]
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That’s the best they could do? That isn’t even remotely as clever as I thought they could get. I really thought they would get right up to the WR line without acutally complying. It’s nowhere close to WR language. Nothing about ssu’s, for one. The “whose manner of life presents a challenge” is utterly subjective and will never function. The primates told us what was needed to be clarified--there was an explicit action which violated the mind of the Communion. To remedy the violation, the Communion wanted an explicit promise that it would not happen again, until the Communion’s mind changed. This was very disappointing. I was hoping at least for the possibility of reconciliation. Posted by Rick Killough on 06-21-2006 at 09:00 AM [link]
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from BabyBlue:
Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, that the 75th General Convention receive and embrace The Windsor Report’s invitation to engage in a process of heaing and reconcilation; and be it further Resolved, that this Convention therefore call upon Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction to exercise restraint by not consenting to the consecreation of any candidate to the episcopate whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion.
Proposer:
Endorsers:
Posted by GL+ on 06-21-2006 at 09:00 AM [link]
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I see nothing about SSU. Aren’t we required to address that issue by WR? Posted by julia on 06-21-2006 at 09:01 AM [link]
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TImothy, I believe that most of us are praying for clarity and honesty. I don’t understand Kendall’s angst about the likelihood of failure to meet WR standards. If WR is met it will only be met by compromising strongly held beliefs ... on both sides. Enough of that! That has been the modus operandi for the past 40 years in ECUSA. The slide clearly continues towards relativism and humanism. Posted by Bill C on 06-21-2006 at 09:01 AM [link]
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Julia, from the PB’s comments yesterday, they will issue some type of factual statement that the Convention did not proceed (at this time) with adopting same sex blessings. Posted by Going Home on 06-21-2006 at 09:03 AM [link]
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Doesn’t the idea of a twice-divorced, thrice married bishop present a challenge to the wider church? They approve Beisner then 24 hours later propose this. Rank hypocrasy. Posted by Wilson on 06-21-2006 at 09:03 AM [link]
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Sarah reports just now: “Just got word that our new PB referred to Jesus our mother gives birth to the new creation in her sermon at the Eucharist.” Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-21-2006 at 09:04 AM [link]
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“Our mother Jesus gives new birth to a new creation and we are his children” It sounds like something out of a horror/sci-fi movie! Posted by JMAC on 06-21-2006 at 09:05 AM [link]
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And that we should “love the world.” Doesn’t the Bible say something about resisting the devil and (along her thinking) she (the devil) will flee from you? Posted by Milton Finch on 06-21-2006 at 09:06 AM [link]
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Ox, I agree again. Satan’s favorite tool in this long battle has been to sow confusion. He suffered a set back yesterday when clarity was achieved, but not giving up he has obviously been busy overnight. But the Lord will deal with this one way or another. Posted by Going Home on 06-21-2006 at 09:06 AM [link]
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Panentheism stated at its very best. Dear Lord, deliver us. Posted by GL+ on 06-21-2006 at 09:07 AM [link]
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Our goal as a church and communion is NOT to see Christ in each other! It is to save the lost by bringing before the face of Christ to accept their salvation thorugh His taking of our sins to all who believe in Him. Posted by Bill C on 06-21-2006 at 09:09 AM [link]
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Just to clarify: is the resolution to “engage in a process of HEARING and reconcilation” or “HEALING and reconcilation.”
(Not that it matters that much.) Posted by gdb in central Texas on 06-21-2006 at 09:10 AM [link]
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Won’t our new PB be a challenge to some in the wider communion and certainly our new thrice married bishop from California will be a challenge. Posted by julia on 06-21-2006 at 09:10 AM [link]
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If this it, then it’s all over, my friends. A statement that we are still not proceeding with SSU liturgies is insufficient, of course, since SS blessings proceed apace and we were asked for a moratorium. As for the language which is in here, it does not even approach that of the SCECAC report, which itself thumbed its nose at the Communion. Lord, have mercy. Posted by Phil on 06-21-2006 at 09:12 AM [link]
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Get ready for a free-fer-all.
Posted by Milton Finch on 06-21-2006 at 09:13 AM [link]
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I propose an amendment—strike “whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church” and replace it with “whose manner of life is prohibited by scripture.” That would seem to narrow the universe of people affected. Wouldn’t that be a good thing? Posted by Wilson on 06-21-2006 at 09:16 AM [link]
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I am relieved. This is not even quality smoke. Thus resolution means nothing. Every sentient reasserter should vote against this. This is even weaker than the resolution defeated yesterday. This is further from Windsor compliance. The true target audience is the moderate revisionists who voted against the resolution yeaterday. The PB hopes this is weakened enough to allow them to vote yes. Posted by Publius on 06-21-2006 at 09:19 AM [link]
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The HOB on its own can put a temporary halt on liturigies for SSU (or each bishop could do it separately). I think Griswold should be given some credit for trying to work something out (and implicitly telling the liberal HOD that they are not helping out at all). Kinda like his “intervention” in California. “exercise restraint by not consenting” is about as good as we’re gonna get, folks. We’ll see what the liberal HOD deputies will do to it. I would urge the conservatives to vote in favor so we can avoid the crazy conspiracy charges floating around since yesterday. Posted by Widening Gyre on 06-21-2006 at 09:20 AM [link]
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I disagree Widening Gyre, the WR asked for specific language and we should have and up or down vote on that specific language. Clarity and honesty is what we need, not more of this obfuscation. Posted by Jerry on 06-21-2006 at 09:23 AM [link]
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Just curious—is the HOB debating simultaneously? If so, why aren’t Matt and Sarah splitting up and reporting events in both houses? Posted by Wilson on 06-21-2006 at 09:25 AM [link]
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Just read the text of Schiori’s sermon.She shouldn’t be PB,she should be up on heresy charges. Posted by paddy on 06-21-2006 at 09:26 AM [link]
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Lets all pray that the HOB and HOD will see the truth and end up doing the right thing for as Christ said “Woe to he that leads this child to sin. For it would be better for him to tie a large milstone around his neck and drowned in the depths of the sea. Posted by chulolee on 06-21-2006 at 09:28 AM [link]
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Widening Gyre, we obviously disagree about what is most important, staying together or achieving clarity. If this resolution passes it will facilitate ECUSA continuing to go on its current path, and will continue to mislead some people in the pews. Posted by Going Home on 06-21-2006 at 09:28 AM [link]
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Rabbits fear humans because humans shoot and eat them. Fear is not always a bad thing. Posted by Wilson on 06-21-2006 at 09:29 AM [link]
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The real issue to me is the need for an expression of repentance. The AC Primates are looking for ECUSA’s sorrow for sin, not their commitment to continue in dialogue! I think the election of the New PB and her stance on the issues almost negates impact this resolution will have anyway. Posted by drlouis20 on 06-21-2006 at 09:29 AM [link]
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I agree with Jerry. The WR is pretty clear, and a minimal standard to agree to. The orthodox have to stand for what they believe in. We have to stand for what is right. We are in the mess we are in today because we have always caved in and gone along at the end in order to avoid looking like we are causing trouble. Posted by Liz Forman on 06-21-2006 at 09:29 AM [link]
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Did I understand correctly that it will take a 2/3 vote to bring up BO 33? If so, that offers a good opportunity to kill this sorry resolution. It’s less than a fig leaf and bears no relationship to what Windsor requires. Who cares about somebody’s conspiracy theory—the HOD voted down 161 yesterday and ought to vote this down today. We have all the clarity we need so let’s not let anything muddy the waters. Posted by hanks on 06-21-2006 at 09:31 AM [link]
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The “mother” image can also be construed as coming straight out of Julian of Norwich, for whom we even have a religious order. Posted by DBieler on 06-21-2006 at 09:34 AM [link]
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A Bishop has stated in the House of Bishops meeting that the House of Deputies has a “spiteful spirit.” Posted by Milton Finch on 06-21-2006 at 09:35 AM [link]
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The “Mother Jesus” language is part of the coordinated campaign to get the HOD to pass the Bishops’ resolution. Bp. Schori is reassuring the left, saying “Don’t worry about the resolution today. We are with you. You will get everything you want if you give us this fig leaf”. Posted by Publius on 06-21-2006 at 09:37 AM [link]
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Good Lord, the HOB has already amended BO33 less than 30 minutes after it was presented by the PB. If the PB can’t hold the HOB in line, he has no hope whatsoever in the HOD. It’s also worth noting that the outgoing PB probably has far less persuasive power than the incoming PB, but he’s still trying to run the show. TEC is structurally incapable of making this work. Posted by Wilson on 06-21-2006 at 09:38 AM [link]
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To those in search of clarity, what happens if thise resolution does not pass and we are left with the two resolutions saying, “we really really want to be in communion with you guys and gals” and “we’re sorry we strained the bonds of affection.” Do we have clarity? Now you might personally say, “Heck yeah, I got your clarity right here” but what is ABC going to do? It will be another year before the invites go out to Lambeth. Now, at that time, we’ll have clarity because then we’ll see for sure if our lame response was sufficient to keep us in the game. But until then, it will be muddy. And any efforts by the Network to force ABC or the PRimates to act will be labeled “Schismatic.” The only way to get clarity was tried yesterday with the substitute resolution that tracked Windsor. It is clear that the powers that be will not, I repeat, will not allow us to vote up or down on Windsor. Therefore, we’re not getting clarity. This is the best we can do right now and I say vote for it. Posted by Widening Gyre on 06-21-2006 at 09:43 AM [link]
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I read in other sites (linked to this one) orthodox delegates express sorrow when they learned that the resolution didnt pass yesterday. That worries me that they will vote for this one. This resolution is intended to decieve. Posted by Going Home on 06-21-2006 at 09:46 AM [link]
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So our totally feckless Presiding Bishop has already amended his own resolution by changing “exercise restraint by not consecrating” to “exercise restraint in considering the consecration . . .” What a total woos—he lacks the spine to even defend his own proposal! Posted by Wilson on 06-21-2006 at 09:48 AM [link]
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Timothy, there was sorrow in the clarity we received, I think. Not that we will do anything and everything to keep this denomination together. I think most of us at this point in time have accepted the reality that we have two religions under one roof. Peace! Posted by Milton Finch on 06-21-2006 at 09:53 AM [link]
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gdb, I noticed that you are from central Texas, are you in the diocese of Texas. I’m in Austin. Beautiful place to live, but not exactly a haven for a conservative, evangelical, orthodox Anglican. I’m reeling in dismay regarding Wimberley’s comments on Schori’s election. I really wish ++Iker was my bishop. Here’s the link. Wimberley calls her a delightful presence, wise and extremely smart. He views her election as something exciting, but we should be mindful of those who find her election troubling. There were only two deputies from the diocese of Texas who voted not to consent to Schori’s election. This is not a happy day. Posted by Gayle on 06-21-2006 at 09:54 AM [link]
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Great point, Wilson. My point above only works if there is no amendment made to PB’s resolution. I did note that PB specifically warned that if nothing is done, there will be postage saved next year on the Lambeth invitations. Posted by Widening Gyre on 06-21-2006 at 09:55 AM [link]
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Word is that several orthodox bishops walked out of the House of Bishops just now, and will issue a minority report. Sarah reports: Just found out that they are considering the resolution in the HOB! They have taken it from the HOD for consideration. I’m not certain what that means, but it was my understanding that the HOD received these resolutions first . . . that it had been assigned to HOD at the outset of the convention. I must be mistaken. Matt is headed up to the HOB, while I stay here and observe. One very unusual thing that I have noticed. They have shut all the entrance doors to the hall save for one. And there has been a security guard right next to it, plus a few volunteers lined up by it as you enter the one door. Normally five or six doors are open. In conversation with one other person who is good at analysis, here are three important points regarding the latest resolution. First, because we have already acted upon resolution 161 yesterday, and this resolution is similar in intent, the rules of the house require a motion to reconsider to pass the HOD—that motion must pass by a 2/3 majority. Second, when the Special Commission met and presented their report to the House of Bishops prior to this convention, the Bishop of Exeter was there and indicated that the moratoria resolutions were not enough. You may recall that part of that language was to exercise “very considerable caution.” Third, one could drive a coach and horse through the language of ?exercise restraint?. One might very well exercise restraint but more forward anyway. There is currently somewhat heated debate occurring on various other resolutions not pertaining to Windsor. Word is filtering out that the HOB has passed the resolution Posted by Greg Griffith on 06-21-2006 at 10:02 AM [link]
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The faithful, orthodox Bishops need to walk out. It is time for us to walk with the rest of the Anglican communion. In the words of Bishop Duncan, it is ECUSA who is choosing to “walk apart”. We need to stop being intimidated by the threat of “appearing schismatic”. It is the ECUSA leadership who is acting this way and the majority of the Primates would agree. Posted by drlouis20 on 06-21-2006 at 10:06 AM [link]
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Gayle, I’m in the Dio. of Texas. The actions of the deputies do not seem to be consonant with the churchgoer in the pews here. I do know that convention deputies are typically a different breed from the local parishioner. I’m not sure what Bp. Wimberly’s motivations in his online comments of late. I await his actions following this GC, as they speak louder than words. Posted by Rick Killough on 06-21-2006 at 10:07 AM [link]
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Timothy, I am resigned to the fact that whatever happens happens. I prefer to move forward from this GC without all the bantering back and forth that has rulled supreme for the last three years. Posted by Milton Finch on 06-21-2006 at 10:08 AM [link]
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In the mind of the Communion, the WR IS the compromise.
The only thing the orthodox could offer in compromise is something unrelated to the demands of that report. Otherwise, they would be imperilling the church by undermining the WR.