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"Be on your guard. Stand firm in the faith. Be brave. Be strong. Be loving in everything you do." - I Corinthians 16:13-14 |
Part 1 of 4
The Rev. Canon Dr. Kendall S. Harmon is a graduate of Bowdoin College, received his D.Phil. from Oxford University, and is Canon Theologian for the Diocese of South Carolina. He is editor of The Anglican Digest, which has the highest circulation of any periodical in the Anglican Communion, and he runs the web site TitusOneNine. He is one of America's leading voices of orthodox Anglicanism. I spoke with him via instant messenger during the week of July 12, 2004. All four installments of this series are available as a print-friendly PDF document. All 4 entries in blog format can be found here.
Dr. Kendall Harmon: The worldwide communion I would consider very frail right now. It is clear that the whole Anglican family has never before been confronted with a rift this strong and deep. On the one hand you have a minority of people, mainly in Western Churches such as those in the United States and Canada, who believe it is a matter of gospel justice to insist that people who experience same sex attraction should be able to be involved in committed non-celibate relationships and still be ordained (I call this group the "reappraisers"). On the other hand you have the majority of world Christendom, as well as the majority of the Anglican Communion, who believe that ordaining as leaders people in these relationships is a matter of rejecting Gospel truth (I call this group the "reasserters"). Underneath the presenting issue of the clash over whether the church should repudiate or bless non-celibate same-sex relationships, you have the deeper issues of the nature of humanness; the nature of a sacrament (and in particular the consecration of a Bishop); the nature of marriage; the way authority is dispersed in the church and how the church uses that authority when it makes decisions; the issue of the authority and interpretation of Scripture (those two for me are inextricably intertwined); and even the nature of the Gospel itself.
As if all that is not enough, one needs to consider the context in which the decision is made. In the West, you have mainly white, mainly affluent, mainly shrinking Anglican Churches who, according to the perception of a significant majority of other Anglicans, are seeking to impose a non-Christian teaching on them which they believe will lead their church members away from God. This pressure is being placed upon a mainly black, mainly poor, mainly growing segment of the Anglican Communion. So one piece of this struggle is a battle between the Global North and the Global South over the shape of Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century. When you have genuine feelings by a solid group of Anglicans that this action is in part imperialism and may be tinged with racism, those are explosive dynamics beneath the surface.
GG: Plus, you have the Africans saying, in essence, ‘We have embraced the faith you brought to us, why do you now want to discard this quite important part of it?'
Dr. Kendall Harmon: Another facet of this which no one wishes to mention is money. You may know the cynical version of the golden rule: he who has the gold, rules. The reality is that the Anglican Communion as a worldwide phenomenon is a relatively recent product of history in terms of it coming to a fuller shape. It begins in earnest with the Lambeth Conferences in the late 19th century but its more modern growth really starts in the period somewhat after the Second World War. A lot of people do not realize, for example, just how much the Anglican Communion has grown relatively recently.
Let us consider some examples. According to the World Christian Encyclopedia in 1970 the Anglican Church in Nigeria had 2.914 million people, whereas in 2000 it had 18 million; the Anglican Church in Uganda had 1.281 million people in 1970, whereas in 2000 it had 8.580 million. As a second example, I was interested to see in some research I did last year that a Roman Catholic commentator on Lambeth 1958 said: "The Lambeth Conference was composed of 310 Anglican bishops from 46 countries. It is today far wider in its reach than it used to be. It may be said to represent the second most important religious communion in English-speaking and English-ruling or ex-English-ruling parts of the world."
Now that was in 1958; and the author estimated the numerical strength of the Communion at that time at around 40 million. As of today, the Anglican Communion has significantly over 70 million members in over 160 countries worldwide - it has nearly doubled in a roughly a generation. The increase in size brought a greater need for family conversation and so you have the evolution, for the first time in Anglican history, of things such as the Primates' meetings, which are now a once a year gathering of all the leaders of each of the 38 member churches within Anglicanism. The Primates' meetings only began in the late 1970's, and initially these leaders met every two or three years! You also have the creation of the Anglican Consultative Council, again a relatively recent phenomenon formed following a resolution of Lambeth 1968; they came into being in 1969 and had their first meeting in Kenya in 1971. People need to know that, for good or for ill, some of the key building blocks in the modern Anglican Communion are at least in part tied to Western money, and in particular to American money. This also creates tricky dynamics.
The other context people need to consider is England. I do not think the average Episcopalian realizes how spiritually weak the Church of England really is. It is claimed that there are over 20 million Anglicans in England, the World Christian Encyclopedia puts the 2000 figure at 23.983 million, but the reality is that on a given Sunday it would be a blessing to have 1 million worshippers there nationwide. The process of secularization, at the level of the average person in England, is far, far more advanced than it is over here. With the church's weakness have come various new societal pressures, one of which is a small breeze which is blowing toward disestablishment. The new Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who was at Oxford when I was pursuing my doctorate there, has had some favorable disposition toward disestablishment.
Were Rowan Williams, in this struggle, to stand with the majority of the Communion he would be standing not only against American money but against the direction of the current Blair government, which seemed to have had a role - we could debate how much of one - in the latest Jeffrey John appointment to be Dean of Saint Albans. Were the Communion to respond to the American action in a strong way it could lead that small breeze of disestablishment to turn in to a wind in England - and though few people are willing to mention it, it is a backdrop to the current struggle.
If you put all these dynamics together, you can see that the cauldron boiling under the lid is very, very potent. And now we need to add one more specific element of context - that of what has transpired since General Convention 2003.
This was the reason for the set up of the Commission, headed by Archbishop Robin Eames, and now called the Lambeth Commission. Given the unprecedented level of disunity in the Anglican Communion caused directly by the actions of General Convention 2003, could they find a creative solution whereby the highest level of communion could still be maintained and the problem would be honestly and directly faced? To attempt such a task the climate of mutual interdependence, which the Primates' statement of October 2003 sought to create, had to be maintained.
GG: What about the state of ECUSA?
Dr. Kendall Harmon: The Commission, we might say, needed room to work. But what we have seen since the Primates' meeting is that that room has been steadily decreasing. It began the night of the Primates meeting in which Frank Griswold shocked not only a number of press present, but also a number of Primates, by clearly implying that, having signed a unanimous statement saying that to proceed would be to "tear the fabric" of the Anglican Communion "at its deepest level," he intended to go ahead anyway.
Then the next morning in England, less than a day after the Primates' statement was released, the Diocese of New Hampshire made clear they intended to go ahead.
I happened to be in the lobby of a London hotel that morning and saw an African Primate who stood there simply shaking his head after he heard what the Diocese of New Hampshire had said. He exclaimed: "We worked so hard to say the truth in love to them and they could not even wait a day before trampling on what we said." Fast forward now and look carefully at what transpired since that time. The consecration on November 2 last year was seen, as Robin Eames recently explained, as a betrayal of the Anglican Communion, and of trust, by so many of our brothers and sisters throughout the world. But, having done so, did the American Church express publicly any sorrow about the significant damage which they caused? There was almost none.
In addition, what we have seen is an embrace of the new theology even more fully developed by the American Church. Right before the Primates' meeting in October of 2003 you had the diocese of Nevada vote to authorize ceremonies to celebrate "relationships of mutuality and fidelity." In March 2004 the bishop of Utah authorized same-sex blessings. Then you have the retired bishop of Utah, Otis Charles, getting "married." You have the bishop of Los Angeles blessing a same sex relationship, the bishop of Washington, D.C. doing the same, the Diocese of Vermont moving ahead with a same-sex liturgy, and even the diocese of North Carolina following suit. All this communicates a clear attitude of "we do not care what you think," and "tough luck for the communion," etc. It is clear that Lambeth Palace feels these developments are taking away what little room the Commission has in which to work.
Just recently, Gene Robinson said to Religion and Ethics Weekly, "The Eames Commission does not have any authority over any of the 38 constituent provinces of the Anglican Communion." How do you think that comes off to the rest of the Communion where so many already feel betrayed? These kinds of comments, and the actions of these bishops and dioceses, and of the Canadian General Synod, have made an already frail situation much frailer.
Who said this:
"I think we are heading for a split...The Anglicans have a tremendous talent for fudge, and they must be hoping and praying it will come to the rescue again. But there is an inherent instability now and a fatalism on both sides that this split is now going to happen."
An alarmist? A reasserting Episcopalian (as I like to call them)? No, one of the most respected English observers of religion, Clifford Longley, at one time religion editor of the London Times. Whether Mr. Longley is right or not, and I hope he isn't, he grasps the seriousness of the present moment. Do we?
Anyone who does not realize that the Communion is heading into some of the most turbulent waters in its history in the next 6-8 months is just not in touch with reality.
To me, the situation in the Episcopal Church feels eerie at the present time. The image I had last week was of being outside a house, and looking inside and seeing everyone going on about their business as usual; then I was taken up in the air far above the house and could see a hurricane just off shore. As I was taken around houses in different neighborhoods, every once in a while I would see people gathering water and seeking to prepare, but they were relatively few in number. It would be alarming enough if there were a hurricane just off shore and people were boarding up their windows, but the idea that one is off shore and most people are acting like it's not even there, is bizarre.
At the first Plano conference [a gathering of orthodox Episcopalians who formed the Network of Anglican Communion Dioceses and Parishes] I insisted that the most important book of the Bible in the present time is Jeremiah. I believe that now even more strongly than I believed it then. One of the many important aspects of Jeremiah is that in a time in which people are particularly under God's judgment, falsehoods multiply and truth becomes ever scarcer.
Right now there is a series of lies being told by prominent Episcopal leaders.
The first is: It will all blow over, it is no big deal.
The second is: It is just like women's ordination, it will be messy but we will make it through.
The third, which I regard as the most insidious, is: Sexuality is not a church-dividing issue.
If you look at the average issue of Episcopal Life, or the average diocesan newspaper, or the majority of stories issuing forth from headquarters (e.g., Episcopal News Service), this is the message which they are intending to send.
All of these statements are false. The first two are already demonstrably untrue based on what is occurring in the Communion and on the ground in the Episcopal Church. The last is untrue because, as I have sought to argue, the same-sex relationship controversy is merely the tip of the iceberg above the water; the issues below the water are unbelievably serious.
The reality under that very thin veneer is far different. All over the country, individual parishes and parishioners are redirecting their giving. The important part of the money issue is not the money in and of itself, but what it says about the degree to which so many ordinary people are completely alienated by what has taken place. They feel they have no ownership or involvement in the decision and are deeply worried about the future of a church that has acted as it has.
Also, all over the country individual parishioners have left the Episcopal Church. They do not make headlines, they are not noticed, but they have reached the place where they do not believe they can raise their children in this church, and be spiritually confident about where their children will end up.
To add to the picture, you have the formation of brand new parishes where people are coming together who want to be part of the Anglican Communion, but who do not wish to be affiliated with an Episcopal Church which they believe has turned its back on God.
I was recently at a gathering in Michigan. I met a priest, and, in the course of the conversation, he told me a little about himself. When I asked where he served, he told me Wisconsin - and it is in a parish seeking to be Anglican, unaffiliated entirely with the diocese in which it is geographically located. Nearly all of this has been unnoted and unremarked upon by the so-called official Episcopal church leadership.
Another piece of the puzzle is a series of groups all over the country which are forming in order to be prepared for action in response to the decisions of the Lambeth Commission and the Primates. Your group here in Mississippi, Stand Firm, is an example of that. Many people are unaware that there is a similar group in Alabama. There is also a group in Iowa, there is a group in Rhode Island, a group in Upper South Carolina, and in many other places where people for the most part have not noticed. I talked to a friend last night in a yet another diocese where there is major organizational work going on at the parish level in preparation for the fall, but the work needs to go on still further before they make a formal announcement.
You have bishops placing enormous pressure on people, especially clergy, not to join the Network or to allow their parish to join the network. The letter from the Bishop of Alabama, Henry Parsley, to his parish clergy, would be a case in point.
I do not think the situation in the Episcopal Church is sustainable in its present state. Something will have to give. As I said recently in an official ACN release:
"Even more shocking than this change, which is contrary to Scripture and outside the bounds of Anglicanism, is the speed with which it is now being enforced by the church's most powerful officials... Still more alarming is the denial by so many Church leaders that a huge theological shift, and its subsequent swift enforcement, is taking place. Unless some way is found to stem the tide, all orthodox voices in ECUSA will be in danger of being drowned out."
What I find alarming is the degree of untruth with which our leaders are seeking to live, not just by changing the church's teaching, but the way in which they changed it.
They are claiming we are still in conversation about this question, when in reality they are strongly opposing people who hold to traditional Anglican teaching. I recently had a telephone conversation with a leading clergyman who related how someone in his diocesan ordination process was specifically asked about the highly publicized 2003 General Convention decisions. The person was opposed, and was told they had better get over it because the church is changing. It appears likely he or she will now be unable to be ordained in that diocese. These kinds of incidents are part of a wider pattern, and the message seems clear: In order for us to grow, you have got to go. The fact that this comes from people who talk so incessantly about "inclusiveness" is very frustrating. I quote back to them the line from George Orwell's Animal Farm: All of the animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
I mentioned earlier that the actions of a few bishops and dioceses were causing the Lambeth Commission nearly to run out of room. Domestically, it creates a different situation, namely the clear indication that the train driven by those leading the Episcopal Church is not stopping at this station. When Resolution C051 [recognizing that liturgies "celebrating and blessing same-sex unions" are "within the bounds of our common life"] passed the House of Bishops at General Convention, it was presented as a compromise, but I argued at the time it was not a compromise because it would encourage dioceses not allowing same sex blessings to begin doing so - it would add momentum to the current leadership direction. This is exactly what has happened, and with increasing speed.
So already you have a church spokesperson quoted in a recent story talking about General Convention 2006 and saying that same sex "marriage" will be on the agenda. Do you see how far we have moved? We have gone from a descriptive resolution in the Denver convention in 2000, to a resolution in 2003 which is being interpreted as permissive by more and more dioceses, to the discussion of same-sex "marriage" in 2006. Anyone who believes that this is not the current trajectory of the present Episcopal Church needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
And a new revised prayer book is not far behind, in which the present Rite One is gone; what is now Rite Two becomes Rite One; and there will be a series of new "inclusive language" liturgies which will be the new Rite Two whose language, at least in part, will probably be modalistic.
Again, if you watch under the surface, this is creating interesting cross-currents, especially among the so-called "moderates." In the past two weeks a bishop whom I thought was not favorably disposed toward the possibility of Network affiliation is now indicating he is more so. Another bishop who voted to approve Gene Robinson's election is now deeply conflicted about his vote.
The Lambeth Commission is going to need a near miracle to deal with a situation this fractious, frayed, and volatile. They need our continued prayers.
GG: What about the state of the orthodox movement within the Episcopal Church?
Dr. Kendall Harmon: The "reasserting" Anglicans in the Episcopal Church have had a traumatic and tumultuous year. On the one hand, there is good news. Plano One (in Dallas) was a big success, and served as a rallying cry for people around the church in a way scarcely conceivable given the tight time frame in which it had to be organized. My hat is off to Dave Roseberry for his superb leadership there.
It is amazing to me that the Network of Anglican Communion Dioceses and Parishes has come as far as it has, as soon as it has, given the degree of opposition it has run into in the official Episcopal Church. When we had the January meeting which some are calling Plano Two, if you had asked me when I arrived if I thought the organizational charter would have had a unanimous positive vote on each section, I would not have believed it possible.
Since that time, the working of the Network steering committee on which I sit, and the geographical regional deans, has been inspiring. I believe people are catching a vision of a united Anglican missionary protest movement as I have tried to portray it.
Also, the vision Bob Duncan laid out at Plano One of the "re-gathering of the Anglican Diaspora" is beginning to move in a positive direction. The letter of common cause was very encouraging to many people, especially those at the grassroots level, that some type of more unified future might emerge. I live in one of the communities in the United States - Summerville, South Carolina - where there is a Reformed Episcopal Seminary. The dean is a personal friend. There are some remarkable Christians there, and to see them excited about this is encouraging.
The last thing I would mention is the invitation given to Bob Duncan to appear before the Lambeth Commission . It was a significant symbol that the Commission invited the leader of the Episcopal Church, Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold, and the leader of the Network, Bishop Robert Duncan, each to come and make presentations with teams they designated.
Having said these things, though, I would emphasize that we have a long way to go. Because of the degree to which the Network is opposed, and the context of the last three decades of debate between reasserters and reappraisers, there has been a tendency of some reasserting leaders to believe that this is a political battle which is being lost, as opposed to a gospel struggle which can be won. The fact that we get painted constantly by secular and other media as being "against" things is part of this, sure, but we need to set out a more attractive positive vision for the future which attracts people. My talk on "Anglican Essentials and Our Future Call" was meant to try to do that.
Another growing edge for us has to do with the issue of how we will deal effectively with genuine diversity within real gospel unity in the Network itself. This came to the fore at the Plano Two meeting on the women's ordination question, and it did get very challenging for a time, but the breakthrough came when someone pointed out that this was not about theology - it was really about trust. We really do intend to take the position of the Anglican Communion as a whole here, and be in a period of reception on that issue. But the reality is, a number of Anglo-Catholics who had been so trampled by the Episcopal Church for years and years were fearful that in the Network they were going to be treated in a similar manner.
We need to learn a hermeneutics of trust instead of a hermeneutics of suspicion, if I may put it like that. The trouble is, so many reasserting Anglicans in the Episcopal Church have been so criticized for so long that they have become almost instinctively reactive. Take the recent letter of common cause as an example. As soon as it came out, I got a number of emails from people worrying about women's ordination because the various groups involved have different stances on that issue. You see? There is an announcement, and what follows is criticism and worry. The reality is, it is intended as a letter of common cause, to signal that these groups will not criticize one another publicly, and will seek, as much as possible, to encourage one another. It was not looked at as anything like an ecumenical concordat or full intercommunion. It was not perceived as doing anything which was going to compromise anyone's integrity.
So we have many struggles and much need to grow and improve, but God has brought us a long way.
GG: You say, "... since the Minneapolis decision both the Methodists and the Presbyterians did not follow in the Episcopal Church's lead." But in a close and controversial decision, the Methodists allowed a lesbian minister to retain her position, and the Presbyterians came within a handful of votes of allowing a major concession to the gay agenda. The Presbyterians have essentially split over the issue, and the Methodists are floating the idea of an amicable separation. So if you're saying that the Methodists and Presbyterians didn't go as far as ECUSA, technically that's true, but wouldn't you agree that it seems like only a matter of time before they do?
Dr. Kendall Harmon: I don't agree about the Methodists; the Presbyterian situation is more complex. The Methodist decision was quite strong and continues a trend in that denomination. A number of observers thought the Presbyterian vote would pass, and it did not. Keep in mind that in the Presbyterian Church, their polity means that certain national decisions need to be ratified by a certain percentage of the presbyteries in order to pass.
In recent years it has been the individual presbyteries which have voted against a national push away from historic Christian faith. Now you had a national vote which went narrowly in favor of historic Christian faith. Having said that, I am concerned that the reason some seemed to vote this way was because the task force appointed needs to study it more. It seems possible, given the membership of the task force, that they may recommend local option to a future General Assembly, and unfortunately "local option" is a code word for "incremental coercion" in so many instances. I also want to grant that there are those who disagree with the decisions which have been made in both the Methodist and Presbyterian churches. In the Presbyterian case, among those involved in the national assembly, this does mean a significant group.
The other point I would make is that in both of these votes the reality of the existing Episcopal Church schism played a role in the disincentive to move in the direction we have. Some people clearly felt: "If we do this, we will go down the road of the Episcopalians, where there has been a substantial uproar and the formation of an alternative Anglican network of dioceses and parishes, which has never happened before. We do not want to go there."
GG: So ECUSA has become a cautionary tale for western Christianity?
Dr. Kendall Harmon: ECUSA is a major cautionary tale, along with the United Church of Christ and the United Church of Canada. These are not Christian families known for powerful growth or life changing ministries, alas, so can we blame our sisters and brothers in the Global South for being skeptical?
Remember that more than 40% of bishops with jurisdiction voted in Minneapolis against approving the New Hampshire consecration. The fact that the change is being so strongly pushed is reason for even greater skepticism. If the change was such a good thing, people need to ask why the global communion is so against it, and why so many bishops were against it at the time.
GG: They will say, "God's will is not discerned by a popularity contest."
Dr. Kendall Harmon: Well, people keep talking about the vote in New Hampshire but not about the vote at Lambeth 1998! Seriously, this gets us right back to the key question, doesn't it? How do we determine what is God's will?
A number of Episcopal leaders have what I call a "self-reinforcing prophetic theology." If it is difficult, as it has been, they say: "Well, it was difficult for Jesus and the prophets also." If it is embraced, they will appeal to history and say: "See, God is clearly speaking here." I do not think this is helpful. We need a greater sense of Christian history and a greater capacity for self-criticism.
Real Christian discernment is a lot more difficult than many people realize. In the fourth century clearly a majority – some historians say a significant majority – of bishops were Arians. And there is a LOT more of a scriptural basis to fall into Arianism than there is to embrace this new sexual teaching.
The thinness of the theological discourse which was involved in embracing this change is simply mind-boggling given the stakes involved. At the end of May 2003 the Anglican Primates commended the document "True Union in the Body?" [246kb PDF] to the whole communion. I am not aware of any substantial Episcopal response to it. It is as if it doesn't exist. Yet here is a substantial, theological, pastoral and compassionate response to this struggle which was commended by the Primates. How can the Episcopal Church possibly defend that kind of lack of listening and lack of theological reflection?
GG: So Holy Matrimony for homosexuals - not blessing of same-sex unions, but full-bore Holy Matrimony - will be on the agenda for General Convention 2006. What specific confirmation can you give us about this?
Dr. Kendall Harmon: Let us cite chapter and verse on this claim. It is from an Associated Press story on the decision of the Diocese of Vermont to develop liturgies for same-sex blessings. Here is the quote from the article:
"The next General Convention in 2006 is expected to debate whether the church should bless gay and lesbian marriages, she [Episcopal Church spokesperson Jan Nunley] added.
GG: If by some miracle the Anglican Communion as we know it is still together by then, what are the chances that General Convention 2006 will approve Holy Matrimony for homosexuals, and what are the chances that the Anglican Communion will remain intact if that comes to pass?
Dr. Kendall Harmon: The Anglican Communion can hold together only if God wants it to, and only if it stays anchored in Gospel truth and who God is as Trinity, first of all. We need to pray for that. But second, we have to face reality. Either the Lambeth Commission comes up with some kind of substantial structural response to what the Episcopal Church and Canada have done, or the results will be disastrous, and Anglicanism will no longer be able - in the eyes of many - to claim to be a catholic church in any meaningful sense. We will know this long before 2006.
Posted by Greg Griffith at July 18, 2004 08:14 PM (GMT -6:00)"When you have genuine feelings by a solid group of Anglicans that this action is part imperialism and in part may be tinged with racism..."
I do believe that "racism" is a very serious word and has a specific meaning. One should be very careful before applying the word to another individual, group, or to one's opponents. What may be political, philosophical, or theological disagreements may have nothing to do with racism at all. I do not believe that the "reappraisers" in the Episcopal Church are motivated by racism, even though it so happens that most orthodox Anglicans hail from the Southern Hemisphere. I believe that the reappraisers have their own theological bend and agenda which they will pursue no matter what color people are on either side of the issue.
# Posted by: Judith Warren-Brown at July 18, 2004 11:51 PMI did not get the impression that Dr. Harmon used the word "racism" lightly at all. That it is present among those in the global North is beyond dispute. Archbishop Drexel Gomez specifically mentioned it at the ACI Conference in Charleston in early 2004.
Judith, how can you possibly defend a structure for the worldwide Anglican Communion where for key posts and key meetings, things such as the Secretary General or the Lambeth Conference, the American Church is so overrepresented and the Global South so little represented?
The possibility of racism being a factor CANNOT be dismissed, alas.
# Posted by: tryon5 at July 19, 2004 07:03 AMWhat Kendall said was that there was a "perception" in the majority of the Anglican Communion that the actions of ECUSA were imperialist and possibly racist. I don't know that that is the case. Personally, I just think the revisionists at ECUSA are are out to advance their own agenda and the rest of the world be damned.
# Posted by: Michael Ware at July 19, 2004 09:42 AMThere is a not-terribly-subtle racism in the patronizing attitude ECUSA infidels take towards faithful African Christians.
# Posted by: Johnny at July 19, 2004 11:21 AMI for one, am loath to put forward the term racist and try to hang it on some one with whom I disagree.
I think that the correct term to apply to ECUSA, is arrogance. I see no difference in how they dismiss the Global South and how they dismiss their own, home-grown orthodox brethren.
It seems though that ECUSA uses both sides of the mirror to whack their opponents. The mirror is in this case, money. On the one hand, ECUSA tries to bribe the Global South by offering money for their silence, whileon the other hand, they cudgel/bribe their orthodox brethren by taking their money, parishes, etc. and throwing them out.
Just two sides of the same arrogant posture.
Philip
# Posted by: Philip at July 19, 2004 02:59 PMPhilip: I wholeheartedly agree. That is pretty much what I said in my earlier post. It's not a black-white thing, it's an us-them thing. ECUSA had the considerable arrogance to simply tell the rest of the Anglican Communion that they were going to do as they pleased and if they didn't like it, that was tough.
# Posted by: Michael Ware at July 19, 2004 03:38 PMDr. Harmon's knowledge base is astonishing. Thanks for sharing this fascinating interchange.
# Posted by: stevef at July 19, 2004 06:28 PMIt's good for us to think more about how these words are used. When everything is everything nothing is anything.
There is certainly an arrogance. I perceive, however, that there are different attitudes held toward Anglicans in the U.K., U.S., Australia, and New Zealand than toward those in Africa, South America, Asia, and the Caribbean. It is not only arrogance, it is condescension, skepticism toward their social and intellectual capacities, and an assumption that they will do as they're told because we send them money (see L. Crews's recent statements!)
What should we call this? Not mere arrogance: it is systemic. Not bigotry: it is ideological. Racism? The word is not as inapplicable as others have argued. Still, it's objects comprise multiple races, not just one.
Is it less that other races are inferior to Western whites, or is it more that Western Anglo-Saxon gnostic materialism is superior? Perhaps the word we are looking for is chauvinism:
'Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender, group, or kind.'
'Note: To have a generous belief in the greatness of one's country is not chauvinism. It is the character of the latter quality to be wildly extravagant, to be fretful and childish and silly, to resent a doubt as an insult, and to offend by its very frankness. --Prof. H. Tuttle'
# Posted by: Marion R. at July 20, 2004 08:50 AMThank you so much for your stand, your site and your fervor. This is excellent. Carol
# Posted by: Carol at July 20, 2004 04:01 PMWhether the leadership of ECUSA is intentionally "racist" is perhaps beside the point. It becomes racist from the thinking that we Western ,"sophisticated", "better educated" people know better than they do. Some of the Global South folk think we are acting out of racist motives because of the totally arrogant words spoken by JSSpong after Lambeth '98 when he berated the strong vote of the Communion opposing modern pansexist thinking by saying "the Africans have barely moved beyond animism." Kendall would have the direct quote---but it was the most disgraceful and incredibly racist comment to come out of that meeting.
# Posted by: joan at July 20, 2004 04:38 PM
Dear tyron5,
"Judith, how can you possibly defend a structure for the worldwide Anglican Communion where for key posts and key meetings, things such as the Secretary General or the Lambeth Conference, the American Church is so over represented and the Global South so little represented."
This situation is not right. It is unfair, and I do not defend it. I do suspect though that the reappraisers would have the same attitude toward the Global South if they were causcasian because of their theological stand. Look how some of our orthodox priests are treated here in the ECUSA in the United States.
I did understand that Kendall wrote that there was a perception of racism and imperialism, and from Archbishop Gomez's position it is as Kendall writes. However, within the ECUSA the conversation has become very strident and uncivil at times (not referring to Kendall by any means), I, therefore, am concerned that this accusation by some may up the ante in an already tragic state of affairs.
I think at the end of the day the orthodox and reappraisers will go their separate ways. It seems inevitable, and the separation may as well be with less rancor as is possible.
# Posted by: Judith Warren-Brown at July 22, 2004 10:15 PM"True Union In The Body" looks like a remarkable document. I am going to read it if I can print it.
Judith
Dr. Harmon is right, I am one of theose who quietly has left the ECUSA for an Anglican Church. I believe that there are three basic groups left. The "tuned-out" majority, the active minority who support the recent changes in church doctrine (secularists), and those who stay to fight the good fight. My question is for the last group, why do you want to stay with a church that is leading you down the wrong path? Based upon Dr. Harmon's commentary, it seems like even winning would be a piric victory as the church is split and the Anglican Communion torn. Have faith in God that letting go of the ECUSA and embracing one of the other Anglican groups that have stayed with the 1928 prayer book etc. have what you are looking for. New buildings can be built anew.
# Posted by: Paul at July 23, 2004 04:45 PMAs clear and concise as anything I have read of the mess in our church. Obviously, we are trying to emphasize to our Lord that we are as "stiff-necked" and "untouchable" as the Israelites. We cannot "mess" with our holy God forever. He loves us, BUT..........
# Posted by: Marcia Moore at July 23, 2004 04:58 PMThank you to those who remain faithful to God's Word!! How long will God smile upon America with all the degredation? Keep the faith!! God Bless! P.F. Metter
# Posted by: Patricia Metter at July 23, 2004 06:02 PMDr. Harmon is a credit to his diocese and the Episcopal Church. I have watched this as a non-Anglican (Associate Reformed Presbyterian) and despair with you over the attitude of the "bosses" who would rewrite the Gospel truths. I confess a bit of pride as I suspect South Carolinians will lead the saving of the Epsicopal Church if it is to be saved, and I am not sure it will be. We have received a small but significant number who are simply tired of the fight. Whether Bible-believing Episcopalians have what it takes to walk away from centuries of tradition and millions of dollars in real estate and start new churches--and that's what it will take--is something for which we will watch and pray. God bless you all for what you are doing.
# Posted by: William B. DePass, Jr. at July 23, 2004 06:16 PMI am nearing my 87th birthday and look back on 82 years affiliation with ECUSA. I cannot, in good faith, support the only church I have known, and it is a very sad day for me. I do not know of any Anglican church in this locale so I am now worshiping in the Lutheran Church until they follow the Episcopal Church. Maybe I'll just stay home and read Rite II and send my money to a local charity.
# Posted by: Elizabeth Spiel at July 23, 2004 07:10 PMPaul, Sometimes the Lord asks us to leave and sometines he asks us to stay. Discerning the will of the Lord is often difficult, at least it has been in my life. I have not heard an unequivocal call from the Lord to anything other than to be a faithful witness, and to be obedient to my bishop. Thanks be to God that I have a faithful, orthodox bishop. I pray for those who do not.
# Posted by: Donald H Dinwiddie at July 23, 2004 09:18 PMBeloved Faithful Ones:
Do not be discouraged!
Never give up.
Remember the three in the fiery furnace! There will always be a fourth one when we "stand alone" for Christ.
Fight the good fight of faith.
We are praying Colossians 1 for the faithful orthodox leaders and their flock, and we pray for strength and courage for the others to RETURN and for the Lord to restore.
Many, many churches & denominations are praying for you (our son is the Episcopal -- he knows we pray!)
God bless and keep you and strengthen you and give you great courage!
Paul and Carol Petersen
# Posted by: Carol Petersen at July 24, 2004 12:38 AMIt is very difficult for me to understand......my priest referred to gluttony as one of the seven deadly sins ....he didn't mention lust ...of which Gene Robinson demonstrated for the last seventeen years...wwjd....he would say repent
# Posted by: Bonnie at July 24, 2004 10:02 AMExcellant interview and clear explanatory comments from Dr. Harmon.
Would that our Presiding Bishop would speak so clearly.
***
The shepherds are wandering from their sheep.
Carol P., your words of encouragemnet and your assurance of prayer come at a very needed time.
Some of us who have been fighting this battle for the past year are battling exhaustion and depression. (And many like Kendall and a few of our faithful Bishops have been fighting for MANY years... it is mind-boggling to think of how they often had to stand virtually alone.)
Please pray especially as we come up to the one-year anniversary of General Convention's consent to Robinson's election (August 5 -- which the Network has called as a day of prayer & fasting). The psychological impact of the one-year anniversary is real: there are so many questions:
one year of fighting and what fruit have we seen?
Of the 45 bishops who voted no, why are only nine officially affiliated with the Network?
How can we overcome the numbing apathy that seems to be prevalent in so many parishes & dioceses?
Truly we need your prayers. Thank you for serving us by upholding us before the Father.
# Posted by: Karen B. at July 24, 2004 04:38 PMI left a very small Episcopal church last November having been a vestry member,layreader and lay eucharist. It was partially because of "Vicky's" election but also because this congregation had become so closed up that they didn't want to know what was going on in the rest of the world and couldn't share with any others in need. We had been inundated with more than our share of middle aged, overweight, grey haired divorced women priests for the last several years and had lost all of our male members. The election was the last straw and so I followed my husband out to greener pastures. So maybe looking back, the first mistake was to allow divorced people be priests (V Gene Robinson)was the beginning many years ago and all of this talk going on now is way to late.
# Posted by: Jan Dorman at July 24, 2004 11:45 PMJan,
I am disapointed about your comment,"middle aged, overweight, grey haired, divorced, women priests", which was both ageist and sexist. You never mentioned their theology nor their leadership abilities. Your comments were unChristlike and were uncharitable.
Judith
# Posted by: Judith Warren-Brown at July 25, 2004 01:59 AM
Jan,
Also, I forgot to comment that people get divorced for a lot of different reasons and some of those reasons are justified.
Judith
# Posted by: Judith Warren-Brown at July 25, 2004 02:03 AMI am a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), which Episcopalians will remember as the church that broke faith with them over full communion at our 1996 annual convention. The ELCA should be added to the list of the United Methodists and the Presbyterian Church (USA) that teeter on the edge of collapse into unbiblical and heretical embrace of the "gay agenda." We are facing two study processes that will come to a vote as official documents of our church in just a couple of years, one on Human Sexuality and one on the ordination of active homosexuals. Many of us in the ELCA are watching the ECUSA (the best friend that we betrayed in 1996) precisely as a "cautionary tale" but also as a "road map" that our own denomination seems determined to follow. Lutherans have a long history of splitting and dividing over doctrinal issues and ecclesiastical controversies. I see a multi-sided split in my denomination as almost inevitable if these two votes actually come to the floor at our biennial conventions. There may be a substantial influx of infuriated Lutherans hammering at the doors to join "reasserter" Anglican parishes by 2008.
On the other hand, as a resident of South Carolina, I am proud (even at a denominational distance) that Dr. Harmon is "one of ours." It is dismaying to hear of the negative turn of events in the diocese of North Carolina, but that only gives encouragement to know that both Episcopal dioceses in South Carolina stand firmly with evangelical and catholic orthodoxy.
Lastly, I think good news ought not to be passed over when it can be heard. I was so glad to read that the national convention of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, meeting in Indianapolis in June, voted by a wide margin to reject the ordination of practicing homosexuals. This certainly adds to Dr. Harmon's most important observation, that the weight of evangelical and catholic orthodoxy in Christianity no longer lies with the rich, white, western/northern old-line denominations.
The assault of the "gay agenda" on orthodox Christianity is not going to go away. We of the comfortable white upper-class churches do not know anymore how to fight for our faith --- if indeed we remember just what that faith is. "Just getting along" does not work anymore.
--- Mark Chapman
# Posted by: Mark E. Chapman at July 25, 2004 11:35 AMJan,
I won't say anything about the "PC-ness or not" of your comments about the series of priests put in charge of your seamingly apathetic parish. But I certainly empathize with your frustration, having had a similar experience in my own parish during its two-year long "interregnum" (which hopefully will end within three-weeks with the arrival of a new family-oriented, and at least moderately orthodox rector). I helped find and get him selected (as a member of the search committee). But that still might not be enough to get me to stay and remain committed long-term. I have already been eying other Anglican or "close enough to Anglican" groups in my area.
I am one of those "staying to fight the good fight" in the church I converted to in college.
I do so because I am a Christian "optimist," a church "leader" and at the behest of my priest.
I must say, however, that the Eames Commissions' "findings" will be the final determinant with my decision to stay Episcopal or simply become Catholic - even though both my priest and bishop are orthodox.
Sadly, a small majority of our ECUSA "shepherds" have indeed wandered away not just from their sheep but God.
Jan,
I agree with Judith. You'd have to wonder why your church was "inundated" with priests you didn't like. So what do you like? A young male "hottie" with a cute little wife and 2.4 children? BTW, are you the appropriate weight for your height? Did Jesus say anything about that? You betray all sorts of unchristian attitudes.
# Posted by: Thomas at July 25, 2004 04:16 PMPardon me for being the one to point this out, but i think "middle aged, overweight, grey haired, divorced, women priests" is simply a euphemism for "liberal lesbian feminist".
While some of you attack those of us who resort to such vulgar langauge, the rest of us are left to wondering which is the bigger problem: is it my coarse and often "sexist" language, or is it priests who are actively alienating all of the male members of Jan's parish?
Anyone got a picture of Barbara? I'm just curious... ;)
# Posted by: Marty at July 25, 2004 05:49 PMMarty,
Why would you want a picture of "Barbara?" If she is a liberal lesbian feminist what dif does it make what she looks like? Hell, for that matter what do you or Jan look like? Anybody want a pic of a middle-aged (balding and paunchy) male educator who just cares a lot about the church which I was born into? I thought not.
I'm not Anglican, but I am a Christian. What one part of the body does affects the rest of us too, even though we may not be Anglican.
Thus, I really appreciate Paul and Carol Petersen's July 24th comments. Many, many of us pray for our Anglican brothers and sisters who remain true. May the Lord repay you one day for whatever this has cost you.
Nick
# Posted by: Nick at July 25, 2004 10:34 PMI'm afraid I have to side with Jan on women in the church, but as for as the weight and divorce issues maybe we should not be so judgemental, although glutttony is condemned in both the old and new testaments, and divorce is permitted in only certain circumstances.
# Posted by: Ian at July 25, 2004 11:00 PMIan,
African polygamy is a red herring. The ACN notes:
–African Anglicans are struggling with how to apply the biblical view of monogamous marriage to Christians emerging from paganism, while the Episcopal Church has disregarded the biblical view of homosexuality and has headed away from a Judeo-Christian morality toward neo-paganism.
–African Christian leaders wrestled with the issue of polygamy and sought an international Anglican consensus, which they then followed. The Episcopal Church ignored international Anglican consensus and acted unilaterally.
–Africans decided that a new Christian man who was polygamous had to designate one woman as his wife, and limit his sexual involvement to her only, to be line with New Testament teaching. Christians are not allowed to marry additional wives, regardless of their desires or past cultural background. The Episcopal Church has accepted homosexual relationships, an action clearly in violation of Old and New Testament teaching, while some are even advocating bisexual relationships virtually without limitation. Desires and “experience” trump the demands of Scripture.
–Clergy in Africa lose their positions of leadership if they step outside of Biblical monogamous marriage, while some clergy in the Episcopal Church who have rebelled against Biblical morality are celebrated and even consecrated.
# Posted by: Greg Griffith at July 25, 2004 11:03 PMAs a note of explanation about the terms that I used that lit a fire under Judith Warren-Brown I should have explained that before any of the women got there we had a single male priest that had never pastored a church but had spent his entire life in South America, never married and had no concept of how to work with the Vestry or any other church body. He had followed two men that brought their alchoholic problems with them and left us and the church because we were unable to help them or they us. So we had great hopes for the three women that I had mentioned. One of them had been ordained in South America by her Bishop, even though she was a Nun, so that she would not get killed by the natives. She had not been to seminary. Another had discovered the Episcopal Church while traveling the world with her second husband who was a retired minister from another denomination. She was into the church and then to seminary in about seven years and also did not know that you don't appoint vestry members without talking to the vestry, redesign the sanctuary by yourself and that "love" is not a gift but a "fruit". The third had married a man after finishing her first marriage and seminary at about the same time. He had never been a church member of any church and resented the time that she spent with us. So grey hair and weight aside they all came with lots of baggage that we were ill-equipped to help carry.
So, yes we must bear the burden of wanting to be carried and not be willing to be leaders with out a priest holding our hands. For that I often ask God, in His mercy, to forgive me. But just where is our leadership when needed? Each time that I took on a new job it was so that I could have further training but it was not given. Instead I was presented with another certificate to hang on the wall. Racism and prejudice might be in this mess but I think that I had a big dose of disapointment too.
P. S. I read the Anglican Digest from cover to cover and am so glad that it is published and that I can read.
Greg,
Thanks. One less thing to worry about. Does this mean that Resolution 26 of Lambeth 1988, allowing the practice of some African men to retain more than one wife after baptism, is no longer valid. Thanks again for clarifying.
Walk in Love,
Ian
# Posted by: Ian at July 25, 2004 11:23 PMIan,
Here's how Resolution 26 reads, in its entirety:
--
This Conference upholds monogamy as God's plan, and as the ideal relationship of love between husband and wife; nevertheless recommends that a polygamist who responds to the Gospel and wishes to join the Anglican Church may be baptized and confirmed with his believing wives and children on the following conditions:
1. that the polygamist shall promise not to marry again as long as any of his wives at the time of his conversion are alive;
2. that the receiving of such a polygamist has the consent of the local Anglican community;
3. that such a polygamist shall not be compelled to put away any of his wives, on account of the social deprivation they would suffer;
4. and recommends that provinces where the Churches face problems of polygamy are encouraged to share information of their pastoral approach to Christians who become polygamists so that the most appropriate way of disciplining and pastoring them can be found, and that the ACC be requested to facilitate the sharing of that information.
--
Now, I'm not ordained, but even I can see that the Lambeth is trying to deal with a bigger picture than you want to give it credit for. Your error by omission thus constitutes a red herring.
What you're omitting is this:
The Anglican Church in Africa is doing a phenomenal job converting pagans to Christianity. Let us just go out on a limb, you know, for the sake of argument, and say that's a good thing.
If they are to accept as members of the church those who have made lifelong commitments under a non-Christian system of ethics and mores, it has two choices: force the husband to cast aside wives, thus doing serious (and un-Christian) harm to them; or compromise on the issue of multiple wives who are already in place, and require that the man stop acquiring additional wives.
This is very clearly an attempt - on the premise that bringing a new Christian into the church is better than rejecting him for things he has done before he knew Christianity - to take the best of three difficult options: Reject a polygamist who wants to be a Christian; accept him but require that he cast aside all but one wife; or accept him - wives and all - on the condition that he understand that polygamy is not a Christian practice, and that he must acquire no new wives. If you believe Lambeth erred, please let us know what the correct choice should have been.
This is quite different from what ECUSA has decided to do, which is to embrace and celebrate homosexuality, and spread the practice of ordaining active homosexuals.
Resolution 26 is a "grandfather" clause, plain and simple. The government does the same thing by allowing automobiles manufactured before the invention of the catalytic converter to operate on the roads. It doesn't mean they're endorsing cars that produce excessive pollution. So will you please give Resolution 26 a rest?
# Posted by: Greg Griffith at July 26, 2004 12:03 AM
Yes Greg, I will give Res. 26 a rest, and I apologize for not overtly stating that conversion of pagans is a good thing. To summarize your point, we have simply allowed reason and rational judgement to rule over tradition and scripture to bring converts to the community. However, my "error by omission" does not, in any way, make polygamy a red herring issue to many in the orthodox community where scripture and tradition are primary in ighting the path to God. You may have guessed my point, which is that the journey to God is not necssarily straight or easy, and it is probably best not to lay mine fields of spiritual ideology on the path. So let's stop making the arguement that the marriage of two homosexuals will allow the introduction of polygamy. Polygamy is already allowed by the Anglican Communion under the special circumstances stated in Res. 26. Enough said on the subject.
Walk in Love,
Ian
# Posted by: Ian at July 26, 2004 07:47 AMNo, Ian, actually, the Anglican Communion has allowed people who are polygamists to be converted as long as they repent of their polygamy and don't engage in the activity further. That is also what the AC is asking for homosexuals and all others [many people] who have disordered affections -- sinners are accepted, and asked not to perform the activities again to which we are prone, and when we do perform such activities to repent of such activities. We are certainly *not* asked to a) not repent, b) proclaim the activity to be good and holy and c) put ourselves forward for ordination.
# Posted by: Sarah at July 26, 2004 08:00 AMIan,
You still seem to misunderstand. Although truthfully, I believe you understand completely, you're just unwilling to concede the point illustrated by my car analogy. The Africans are trying to let old cars without catalytic converters operate on the roads, because getting folks on the highway is good. ECUSA is saying we should do away with catalytic converters entirely. Pollution is good!
As Sarah points out, there are some stringent conditions for the Africans, under a system designed to help conversion. What ECUSA wants is to remove conditions, with no eye at all towards conversion.
Your suggestion that heterosexual monogamy is an "ideological minefield" is simply ridiculous. If it is, then why stop with that? Why not remove from the "ideological minefield" the prohibition against adultery? Heck, while we're at it, why don't we just admit that Jesus said nothing about crack use or pedophilia, and remove those mines too?
# Posted by: Greg Griffith at July 26, 2004 09:27 AMJude 1
The sin and doom of Godless men
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[2] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Mathew 4
10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'[4] "
When Jesus was tempted by Satan he said "Away from me..." Why does the orthodox Anglican communion agonize over maintaining a relationship with the ungodly? Let us depart from them immediately.
# Posted by: William at July 26, 2004 10:31 AMWilliam:
I am in 100% agreement.
# Posted by: zzx375 at July 26, 2004 04:58 PMJan,
I am truly sorry that you have been disappointed by a string of priests. I have been so fortunate to be in a Catherdral which has a dean who is an efficient and effective administrator, and who with our other two priests, are good and caring spiritual leaders. If ever you are in Orlando, Florida visit us at the Cathedral Church of St.Luke. I hope that you and your family find a nurturing church. God Bless. Judith
I think that Dr. Harmon has as usual given a fair and insightful analysis of the situation we find ourselves to be in at this time.
There is simply no excuse for Orthodox Anglicans NOT to be part of the AAC and the Network. The time to act was yesterday, but today will do in a pinch! Tomorrow? Well, that's too late!
Bill+
The Rev. Dr. R. William Dickson
Associate Rector
St. John the Divine, Houston
bdickson@sjd.org
Sarah/Greg,
I agreed to drop the Res. 26 issue, but since you replied here's a brief response. Res. 26 does not require polygamists to give up their lifestyle - read article 3, which does not compel them to put aside their wives. I think that this is actually a good thing by the way, becuase the fate the women and children of the arrangement might otherwise suffer. If we you say polygamy is a sin, and adopt a resultion and guidlines for allowing polygamist to enter the church while retaining elements of his way of life, why can't this be done for homosexuals who want to enter into committed relationships or be ordained? How do you live into the Baptismal vows of honoring dignity and integrity of everyone, by denying sacraments to a few. This Greg is the ideological minefield you entered into - I made no reference, implied or otherwise to heterosexual monogamy as a such. Neither of you resonded to my assertion that Res. 26 lacked the backing of Christian scripture or tradition. In addition, as stated in your previous post Greg, Res. 26 is not a grandfather clause, else their would be a date specified where the granfather period ended.
Greg, I actually gave your analogy little thought because it seemed so convulted, but here's my initial take. If cars cause pollution, and we want less pollution then we want less cars not more on the highway, regardless of what controls you place on them. So, why don't we look at ways to end or significantly reduce pollution not by regulation of control, but by changing the technology of the old combustion engine or by encouraging mass transit. In other words, think less about the sin, and more about loving each other. This should ring a bell? Love not law is the point. As a side note to this discussion, Muslims are producing their models faster than we are - the "old cars" will soon out number the new models, so we better learn to get along without pushing conversion.
Greg, you ended your response with some rather inflamatory statements. Adultery is a sin because it results in harm to another. And of course Jesus did say exactly how we should deal with crack addicts and pedophiles. You need to look no further than how he lived his life and treated the untouchables of his time to see how we should deal with such societal problems.
Peace to you,
Ian
Ian,
Did Jesus say we should welcome crack addicts and pedophiles into the priesthood? Or that we should let pedophiles marry little kids?
No. He said we are indeed to love the sinner, but he also said, "Go and sin no more."
# Posted by: Greg Griffith at July 27, 2004 03:45 PMGreg,
You walked into this one, brother:
Remember, Jesus didn't know about "the (Christian) priesthood," as we know of it. I even wonder if he'd approve of Holy Orders and hierarchy at all. But even if he did, from what we know of how he taught and lived his life, I think he'd treat Christian priests the way he taught Nicodemus ("a teacher of the Law")regarding the new way of life, a rebirth in water and the Spirit, away from the Law as it was understood. It's the same sort of problem as with thinking men having sex with men was the same as committed homosexual relationships today. (Sodom and Gomorrah have nothing to do with this discussion although people who can't get over the "yuck" factor re homosexuality press it into service at every opportunity.)
There are very few, if any, gospel stories or parables, of sinners being forgiven after repentance. Think of the story of the sinful woman in Luke who comes and bathes Christ's feet with her tears--surely a scandalously sensual scene at the tables of the righteous Pharisees. Jesus side tracks the issue of her, as far as we know, unrepentant sinfulness--perhaps she just fell in love with his gentleness and protection of the poor and marginalized? Jesus tells a parable to the outraged Simon, ending with these words "Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which were many, have been forgiven; hence she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little. Then he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven...." And against the protests of the good Godfearing folk there, he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven, your faith has set you free."
The woman who suffered from hemorrhages merely touched the fringe of his clothes and immediately was healed. Bleeding as she was, she was a walking abomination. Remember that's the same word used for men who want to abuse the hospitality codes by raping male visitors. No words are spoken, she is healed. Then Jesus, after identifying her tells her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace." (Lk 8.40ff.) Note, he did not as far as we know, do anything to purify himself after this encounter--or do anything to make sure nothing like that happened again--her touch defiled him according to the Law. He didn't care. The same for the lepers, their faith made them well--they'd been outcasts according to the Law also.
In the parable of the Prodigal Son, or as some say, prodigal Father, the son cooks up a scheme to get food in his belly and then takes his show on the road to see if his father will buy it. Long before he ever gets the words out of his mouth, his Father (your Father in heaven and mine) is running down the road to welcome him back. The Father didn't care. He wanted his son back on any terms possible. The older son, stands on custom and law. The Father says, in effect (to you and those who think as you do), look you've been with me all these years and all that I have is yours already, but this son of mine was dead (I invite you to consider practicing homosexuals heretofor excluded from the life of the mainstream Church) and now is alive. Let's welcome him home and rejoice together.
Ian,
I absolutely agree with you and thank you for your patient exposition of the facts in the face of hostility.
Bishop Lee of Virginia, commenting on the current turmoil within ECUSA, has stated that "Heresy is always preferable to schism". That is the statement of a man is who more concerned with his purse than his principles.
# Posted by: Thomas Christy at July 27, 2004 06:31 PMOh give me a break. Who cares about the money? You, huh? Not me or anyone I know in mainstream ECUSA, except for those wresling with big debts incurred for ambitious building programs. "Heresy" indeed. Did I mention already that my homiletics prof once said that every sermon--every sermon--is heretical--because in a 15 minute sound bite (sermon, etc.) no one can say all that they mean in faith. Heresy is a cheap word and can be twisted to mean anything you want it to, Thomas Christy. Christ was crucified for heresy and the whole thing was a pack of lies. Aaargh.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at July 27, 2004 08:28 PMMarty,
You want a pic, email me privately. Chauvinist.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at July 27, 2004 08:34 PMBarbara,
You still don’t get it. After the bleeding woman touched the fringe of Jesus’ clothes she was healed. She no longer bled. She was different than she was before. Her belief in Christ transformed her. At that very moment she was no longer an abomination. The difference is that your belief leaves you a homosexual. That is the difference between you and the woman to whom you refer. She no longer bled, you are still a homosexual. Who was transformed?
Furthermore, Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him. Yet you say that Jesus didn’t know of Christian priesthood. Why wouldn’t he know? How can you put limits on Him with whom all things are possible?
As you didn’t answer me before, I will ask you again. Why should things you agree that have no Scriptural foundation be injected into the Church?
# Posted by: Stephen at July 27, 2004 10:19 PM"... The Father didn't care. He wanted his son back on any terms possible...."
Barbara,
How do you justify that remark? You, oh so cleaverly, left out the part where the prodigal repents of his lifesyle before he comes back. You also left out the fact that he confessed his sins to his father. So of course his father accepts him back. But for you to insist that his father would have accepted him had he arrived in a totally drunken state with two whores in tow really strains credulity.
Hmmm, what was that quote about swallowing camels and straining at gnats......
Greg,
Now your worried about crack addicts becoming priests and pedophiles marrying children? Where did come up with that? I think you have raised the "terror alert" a notch too high. Maybe you need to take a break. Too much time at the computer. You left out the first part of the sentence " Neither do I condemn you; [then] go and sin no more."
Peace and Rest
Ian
Thanks Barbara. I've followed your posts. Hang in there too.
Ian
# Posted by: Ian at July 28, 2004 07:17 AMhmmm....I thought the prodigal son went home because he got hungry. His only sincerity came from his aching gut. That's not repentance. He was jealous of the swine and would say anything to have it as good as they did. He was fully accepted by his father anyway. The father didn't listen to the son's case before rejoicing in his return.
And the bleeding woman...I was taught in Sunday school as a child that she shouldn't be touching Jesus even if she hadn't been bleeding. Certainly she hadn't made herself "clean" in the traditional way. Imagine being considered a walking abomination. She couldn't have "repented" of her bleeding even if she tried.
This is pure faith stuff.
Some of you guys need to try a little harder or at least listen as if you don't know it all.
# Posted by: Janine at July 28, 2004 09:12 AMIt is heartening to see that someone in the Church does still wish to follow God's word. I left the Episcopalian Church in my city because it caters to the gay community, and our family is heterosexual, has one child, and follows God's Word. The United States in general, and the Anglican Church in particular, believes that it can use its money and influence to trash God's teachings in third world countries. This is especially true as seen in the elitist way in which the American whites running the Church treat the poor blacks in both American and Africa. In Uganda, abstinence is being taught and embraced, so AIDS is decreasing. Money is finally being sent to Africa to fight AIDS from our government, and our government is beginning to address the genocide in the Sudan. This has happened because real Christians are doing their work by being in Uganda,by being President of the U.S. and demanding money for AIDS treatment in Africa, and by being President of the United States and having Reverend Danforth as a liason to the Sudan. The real Christians will win the real battle because they have Jesus Christ. The leadership of the Anglican Church will have nothing because they are of the world.
Who wins? Those who believe. Africa will win and most of the U.S. will lose because they believe and the U.S. does not.
Allen,
You write, in part "You, oh so cleaverly, left out the part where the prodigal repents of his lifesyle before he comes back. You also left out the fact that he confessed his sins to his father."
Obviously I wasn't so clever at all but rather obtuse, perhaps, when I wrote, "the son cooks up a scheme to get food in his belly and then takes his show on the road to see if his father will buy it."
Jesus words the parable very carefully on this point: "When he came to himself he said, (not I need to repent and ask forgiveness but rather) "How many of my father's hired hands have bread enough and to spare, and here I am dying of hunger! I will get up and go to my father and say to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you...treat me (feed me) as one of your hired hands.'" So he sets off toward home hoping for food at least.
Then in v.20b: "But while he was still far off, (no words have been spoken notice) his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran to him and put his arms around him...." The son then starts in with his rehearsed "confession" which is interrupted by the father, who is overjoyed by his presence and apparently not even listening to his words--he's talking to the slaves preparing a feast to welcome him home. (Lk. 15.15ff, NRSV
That's what I'm talking about.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at July 28, 2004 10:26 AMStephen,
You ask (again)"Why should things you agree that have no Scriptural foundation be injected into the Church?" I put it off because I knew it would be a long post. (Please bear with me.)
Why? Because there are already many things "injected into the Church" that have no scriptural foundation. These, variously, have been introduced as what were (doubtless prayerfully) considered natural extensions of the practice of the Church as it dealt with a growing, changing Church and culture over time. they are practices which grew from dialogue between tradition, reason and scripture and the needs of the Church. Each of them represented a big departure from the practice of the church to that time. That is also, btw, the basic justification for a rite for same-sex commitment.
Some examples:
In addition to scriptural deacons, an order for priests and bishops was "injected." Lately we've "injected" lay eucharistic ministers--why?
Where is it in scripture that you can or should carry the sacrament out to the sick? In fact, Art.28, (BCP. p.873) in the Thirty-Nine articles specifically prohibits us to "reserve, carry about, lift up or worship" consecrated bread or wine. We do it out of pastoral consideration anyway.
Our understanding of what happens in the Eucharist has moved around from actual "transubstantiation" mystically into Christ's actual flesh and blood (still the Roman Catholic understanding;) to the Reformers belief in a simple commemoration ("do this memory of me")last supper (most protestant understanding,) to to what the ECUSA speaks of as "real Presence." There is no scriptural support for "real Presence." He said "do this in memory of me" and in John he says "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will have no life in you." The ECUSA theologians adopted the middle way with "real presence." There is no scriptural support for something called "real presence:" scripturally it's either a commemoration or its eating and drinking his flesh and blood. "Real Presence" was a pastoral and theological attempt to satisfy the beliefs of the more Puritan as well as the more Catholic members of the Anglican Church.
In fact, all theologizing about "sacraments" is injected. The word "sacrament" and the thinking behind it is not scriptural---it's part of reason and tradition, responding to the needs of people to understand. There is no scriptural sacrament of matrimony between a man and a woman for that matter. The Church picked up with the practice of the Jews and we have Jesus and Paul's references to it. But even Jesus draws a line between the human understanding and what God is doing. How many people think they're still going to be married to their spouses in heaven because they were married here? If you believe that, it's not scriptural. It's a cultural or pastoral injection of doubtful value. Check Mt.22.23-33
Although Jesus said suffer the little children to come to me, he didn't say baptise them. In fact, Jesus didn't baptize anyone at all in the scriptures. There is that comment at the end of Matthew's gospel about going out and baptizing all nations, though. Baptizing infants and young children is neither biblical or in keeping with the practices of the earliest Church. One could say it's an "injection," which represents a change in our understanding of baptism and out of pastoral concerns.
A rite and sacrament of Confirmation was injected into the Church.
Celebrating Christ's birth is a late feast, set around the same time of the Jewish Hanukkah and the norse pagan Yule feast and intended by the early Church to supplant them The earliest church didn't celebrate it and there's no reason in scripture to do so. Easter, yes. Christmas, no.
The very canon--what books and letters written about Jesus should we rely on as "inspired"---is questionable. Some Christians believe that the books of what is known as the Apocrypha should be included and others say, no,delete them. Many biblical scholars argue to this day that the Letters of Titus, Timothy and maybe Peter and Jude, shouldn't be part of the canon because they contradict other of the letters and the gospels.
On the other hand, there are lots of things in scripture that we no longer do: Why? Reason, cultural change, changes in how we understand what God is asking of us.
I offer these examples and anything else I write, not to break down what you cherish or "win" anything except a closer bond with you (and other "reaffirmers") of mutual understanding, at the very least. Jesus prayed to God the Father, "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they all may be one. As you Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so the world may believe you sent me." (Jn. 17.20ff, NRSV) I'm trying to work with, not against that prayer.
We are all children of the same Father and there are more important things to fight than each other. There is a needy world waiting.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at July 28, 2004 11:51 AMDear Barbara, I just dropped into a conversation that has apparently been going on for some time. Risking this post may seem naive or redundant, I ask this sincerely: for those of us who don't approve of gay sex because we geniunely believe it hurts those who engage in it (however benighted you may believe this viewpoint to be), is there a way in which we can express Christian love to you short of approving your behavior? The issue for most traditional Christians is not orientation since all of us are bent at the psycho-genetic level; we merely struggle with different orientations that block the love and activity of God in us. So, if we genuinely (and to the best of our ability without bigotry)disagree with your thread on this subject how can we traditional types express Christ's love (apart from endorsing the behavior in dispute) to you and other Christian sisters and brothers who experience themselves as gay? I am open to an honest response. Sincerely, Tory
# Posted by: Tory at July 28, 2004 12:03 PMTory,
I don't find your question either naive or redundant, nor do I find your viewpoint benighted.
You are a breath of fresh air to me! One can argue scripture against scripture "until the cows come home" and be no closer to what it might mean to love one another as Christ would have us, imo.
Believing as you do that "gay sex...hurts those who engage in it" it would be unloving and irresponsible for you to "approve" it. Although from my studies and experience, I disagree that loving, committed gay sex hurts anyone, I still respect your integrity and believe you come to that conclusion responsibly. It's important to add to qualify "gay sex," for the sake of this discussion with the following: between adults who are in love, committed and responsible. That's all I'm talking about--not sex for sex's sake, lust, promiscuity, the Gay Pride Parade in-your- face freak show--none of that. Something very akin to what is expected of heterosexuals who ask for the Church's blessing on their marriage is what I believe is not hurtful but even a blessing in itself and a gift, as love always is, from God.
Jesus seemed to see the potential in everyone who came to him sincerely seeking and he turned no one away. It seems to me also that Christ wants us to become more and more like him, more and more, so that with Paul we can say, "Not I, but Christ within me." The more we are with him, the closer that walk, (through study of scripture, prayer, sacraments) the more like him we become. That's pretty orthodox Christian teaching imo.
Being loving toward me and perhaps others of us would mean seeing the potential in us, instead of turning us away. Giving us the benefit of the doubt that we are at least as sincere in our love of God and our relationship with Christ as you are, and whatever you may think of our place along that journey (disapproval in your case)that as long as we keep on the Way, Christ will have his way with us. Hold firm your own faith and convictions but remain loving and open as Christ was "lowly and meek of heart." Respect the integrity of human being, even gay people. Agree to disagree so we can all sit at God's table "as one."
# Posted by: Barbara+ at July 28, 2004 02:05 PMTory,
Thank you for your honest and sincere question of Barbara+.
Barbara+, your answer was beautiful.
# Posted by: Lynne at July 28, 2004 02:13 PMBarbara, thanks for the honest answer. To be honest in return, I already try to treat all Christians in the manner you expressed, even the epistemologically insecure and malicious fundies and libbies. I think where we get stuck is when a doctrinal or moral innovation is not honestly being admitted as such. Now maybe this innovation can be shown to be an entailment of what is in the Tradition, or maybe not. At this point I don't, nor do most Anglicans, believe it has been so demonstrated. You all haven't done the heavy-lifting theologically. Even Rowan Williams "The Body's Grace" is exploratory and tentative - and as clear as mud (I say this as someone who loves and admires our Archbishop). I am heartened to hear you say " being loving towards me...seeing the potential in me, not turning away from me. Giving us the benefit of the doubt..." Of course, you are right to desire that from another Christian brother or sister. I hope to God I don't do less; it would be a sin. Nevertheless, disapproval of a behavior is not the same as turning away from you, losing hope in you. I have three little girls that I love with my soul; I sometime dissapprove of their behavior but I never have nor will I turn away from them, never. So yes, you are right to want us traditional types to hold you with kindness and hope; wishing God's best for you, desiring your best for God. But you must also allow us the dignity of our conscience and our hopes, prayers and dreams for a redemptive Church who will return to the Anglican fold. Whether we can hold hands around this issue in the current schismatic climate of the Episcopal Church is unlikely, though I have worked hard to do so for sometime. And, as you surely know, it is largely us traditional types whose dignity is now being defaced in ECUSA. (I am not whining, indeed for me the effects of ECUSA's schism has been heartbreaking but very clarifying. Indeed, purgative.
I am not really a blogger but someone directed me to this conversation; I'm glad I dropped in and had this brief chat. I do wish you the best Barbara. The peace of the Lord to you and yours, Tory
My response to Tony is that the most loving thing I can do for those who think they are gay is to offer them forgiveness and redemption in Jesus' blood shed on the Cross for them. I know several who have come to that redemption and are filled with joy and new freedom. They beg us to help the Barbaras of this world to find that freedom and love from the Father which ONLY comes from repentance. It is not loving to allow your child to run into the traffic even though he thinks that is freedom.
It is sad in some worldly ways and goes against our desire to be "kind", but one has to say this, I believe the Word of God is very clear about how we are to love ANY of our brothers and sisters who persist in sinful behavior. To love them and encourage them is NOT loving. I dealt with an alcoholic father and I know the desire to take the easy route and not tell the truth about the behavior---but the only healing and forgiveness which can bring wholeness to that person is to deal with reality and truth.
Sure Joanie, offering redemption through the blood of Jesus is the most loving thing any of us could offer another human being. But that witness presupposes one has allowed the cross to expose and (begun to)heal one's own delusional, "suck-of-self" personality(to use Walker Percy's memorable phrase). It also, means something of the need for gentleness in addressing another sinner, so they feel we intend them no more harm. Paul's admonition merits remembering: "Brothers, if anyone is detected in a transgression, you who have recieved the Spirit should restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness...(Gal. 6:1ff). Reread my post, Joanie. I am not minimizing the seriousness of sin. But if your goal really is the restoration and redemption of another sinner do you think your ham-fisted approach will work? I know thatloving someone redemptively is more than promiscious tolerance; but nor is it condescending judgment. Rather it is costly solidarity in the truth of God's holy-love - just like Jesus' loved you and me. Tory
# Posted by: Tory at July 28, 2004 04:22 PMDear Tory,
In part you write "But you must also allow us the dignity of our conscience and our hopes, prayers and dreams for a redemptive Church who will return to the Anglican fold...And, as you surely know, it is largely us traditional types whose dignity is now being defaced in ECUSA."
I do, with all my heart, hold out for you and other "reaffirmers" (to use Kendall's useful term) the dignity of your conscience, hopes, prayers and dreams for a redemptive Church who will return to the Anglican fold. Because I realize it is you "traditional" types who have been the backbone, heart and soul of the ECUSA and now being as you say, "defaced." It grieves me deeply, this schism--this "defacing" (excellent choice of words) of all kinds of us, albeit in different ways.
It may be that my view is skewed by the fact that the chief aspect of my ministry is professional chaplaincy. Our department is very diverse. We have an old-school RC priest, and a couple of RC laypersons--one of whom is a very feminist, and two Seventh Day Adventists--one Spanish born and the other from Zimbabwe. Another is ardently Pentecostal, he's Nigerian born; plus two Episcopal priests---me; and the other also a woman, but very fairly conservative. We have a Presbyterian male, too, also very traditional. We pray together, eat together, share our understanding of scriptures (very diversely,) and minister to the also diverse patients and staff of this hospital. We have Jewish and Muslim staff and patients, as well as Christian. If we can all work as team, clearly supportive and fond of each other--in spite of our cultural and religious differences, why can't the ECUSA and Anglicanism? I think it's because we've come to learn to trust and understand one another--and our focus in on the person and their spirituality--relationship with God--rather than specifically religious concerns.
Thank you for your good wishes. I wish you peace and a place in the Anglican fold again.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at July 28, 2004 04:43 PMBarbara,
Most of what you mention being injected into the Church are things that are not repugnant to Scripture in the way that homosexuality is. You cannot equate something we are instructed to do with something we are instructed not to do (or even not instructed not to do). We can argue over the right way and the wrong way to perform baptism, for instance, but somewhere along the line we would agree that it should be done because there is a Scriptural mandate to do it but, as you say, the rite is not defined. On the other hand, we will only find that there is Scriptural prohibition against engaging in homosexual acts. To say that because we baptize infants we should sanctify homosexuality (by permitting same-sex marriage and allowing homosexual teachers) is intellectually bankrupt.
# Posted by: Stephen at July 28, 2004 11:03 PMObviously two threads are converging here... sorry for any confusion - thanks for playing along barb.
# Posted by: Marty at July 28, 2004 11:36 PMStephen,
You conclude your comment, "To say that because we baptize infants we should sanctify homosexuality (by permitting same-sex marriage and allowing homosexual teachers) is intellectually bankrupt." Insult duly received and noted.
Unfortunately for your train of thought, that's not what I said. What I said is that there are many things in the life of the Church, without scriptural basis, that are there for pastoral considerations. Blessing committed gay unions fits into that category.
Let me try this part again: You say scripture is clearly against homosexuality. I say, scripture doesn't address it. The citations that seem to are addressing homosexual acts committed in the service of a wanton and pagan culture. Homosexuals have always been part of the Christian Church, throughout the ages, in monasteries and other places, but quietly.
"Pastoral reasons" can mean doing it because it's just and a means of stabilizing such unions. But there is another issue at stake: Is the Church going to take a courageous stand for people who DO exist, always have, always will, and admit them to full membership and access to all the sacraments of the Church or---is the Church going to continue to ostracize and so endanger a whole group of people who claim the cross of Christ?
I say "endanger" because those "condemened" by the voice of the Church are twice,no thrice damned by society at large. As we know evil in the world abounds and those who choose to act on it find "queers" a convenient target. Is no one to defend them at all?
Marty,
I AM confused--which are the two threads--I follow Stephen's okay--but I think I lost yours in the mix. Could you clarify?
# Posted by: Barb+ at July 29, 2004 11:00 AMThanks Barbara, i have an updated question awaiting your response on "The Price of Love" post.
# Posted by: Marty at July 29, 2004 11:11 AMTory, of course I agree we mustn't use ham-fisted arguments---but being pastoral and loving doesn't mean just okaying the behavior and looking the other way. We need to establish a relationship of trust and care before anything can be said---but in our heart we must always know what the basic answer HAS to be. I believe Scripture is very clear that we must AT SOME POINT stop fellowshipping with sinners---that point will be different for all of us. Dialoguing ad infinitum is not productive. If we see that the Holy Spirit is working in someone, we keep on praying and talking---if the door is shut, we go somewhere else. I sense Barbara has shut the door and is keeping this conversation going out of pure amusement and whimsy.
# Posted by: joanie at July 29, 2004 02:40 PMTory, of course I agree we mustn't use ham-fisted arguments---but being pastoral and loving doesn't mean just okaying the behavior and looking the other way. We need to establish a relationship of trust and care before anything can be said---but in our heart we must always know what the basic answer HAS to be. I believe Scripture is very clear that we must AT SOME POINT stop fellowshipping with sinners---that point will be different for all of us. Dialoguing ad infinitum is not productive. If we see that the Holy Spirit is working in someone, we keep on praying and talking---if the door is shut, we go somewhere else. I sense Barbara has shut the door and is keeping this conversation going out of pure amusement and whimsy.
# Posted by: joanie at July 29, 2004 02:42 PMYou gotta be kidding. You "sense" wrong. My heart is absolutely in this in way yours can't ever be. You freely enjoy all the perks of being in the majority, where I do not. You've got almost nothing to lose--I'm only hoping to gain a toe-hold on the same freedoms and perks that you enjoy. Sorry to be edging in on your party. No, that last sentence was sarcasm--I'm not sorry. I AM sorry for the pain being caused for all concerned.
Anyone who can say with a straight face (no pun intended) that "we must always know what the basic answer HAS to be" is someone with a "shut door." Your words betray your true heart--and eventually always will. Don't mealy mouth me with trite words about establishing trust, blah blah blah. Nice job--yeah, I really feel pretty trusting of you. NOT.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at July 29, 2004 03:41 PMBarbara,
First let me apologize. After reviewing my post I easily see that I crossed a line. I have been terribly busy and did not follow my normal policy of letting a post sit for a few minutes before I finally “post” it. During this time I go away and come back and re-read it for just those type of comments that don’t come across in the proper way. Especially since we can not assume non-verbal communication in forum like this. It was haste that caused me to make an unwarranted comment, and I am sorry.
Then, what I see between us is a that we have come full circle in our arguments. Your point of view, or belief, is supported only by your belief. It comes from your decision that Scripture doesn’t speak to homosexuality and you can only point to yourself, or your belief, to support your argument.
On the other hand, I can point to Scripture, science, and reason to support my beliefs rather than just to myself.
Leviticus, Romans and Revelations all speak to homosexuality in a negative way. We don’t know if Paul was only talking to Nero, it is an assumption on your part that he was talking only of pagan acts because Paul doesn’t make a distinction between pagan homosexual acts and “loving ” homosexual acts. There is no mention of orientation in Scripture and we can’t say that God is doing a new thing because we read in Ecclesiastes (1:9-11) that there is nothing new, only that people’s memories are poor.
The studies that are being touted by the pro-gay community all fail because their processes contradict scientific method. It is understood that the 1948 Kinsey study that stated that 10% of the population is gay was based an a representative sample of which 25% (of 5300) were prison inmates and several hundred others were male prostitutes. In 1989 and 1990 the American Association for the Advancement of Science study reported that less than 1% of the population was exclusively homosexual. Even the latest census reports that less than .5% of all households in the United States claimed to be gay. Time Magazine poll of 10,000 members of the APA resulted in 69% of the respondents said “that they believed homosexuality is usually a pathological adaptation, as opposed to a normal variation.” A biological cause has not been proven either because of poor science as well. The LeVay study of 41 cadavers showed that all 19 of the homosexuals in this group had all died of AIDS and because of this there was no way to prove that the reduced size of the hypothalamus in these men were the cause or the result of homosexuality. LeVay, a homosexual, admitted a subjective bias in his study. I could go on. (See Joseph Gudel’s report at www.equip.org as a source of this information and more)
Finally, reason tells us as we read Scripture, that the inclusion of those verses that refer to homosexuality into the canon of Scripture without any qualifications or exemptions then it is intended for us to take it at face value. So to say that Scripture doesn’t speak of homosexuality as you define it is imposing your beliefs on to Scripture. If Scripture is our objective standard, then we all know how to behave and what to expect from others. If we impose our own will on Scripture then we have no standard at all. We have no boundaries and then no order in society and no logical conclusion to what we will allow in society.
Now after all of this, there has nothing been gained on either side of the argument and we have returned to the starting point. You want me to accept extra-biblical behavior into what was an institution founded on the Scripture. The orthodox want an institution based on the plain reading of Scripture and a collective determination of its meaning . The revisionists want an institution that is based on a subjective and relativistic reading of Scripture and an individual determination of its meaning. These two positions are irreconcilable. The orthodox reject innovations when there is no Scriptural support for them. The revisionists insist on innovations regardless of whether, as you say, there is Scriptural support for it. There is no way forward.
I thank you for our conversation and your willingness to engage in it, even when I did not communicate in a way that should be rewarded with a response.
# Posted by: Stephen at July 31, 2004 12:40 AMDear Stephen,
Thanks for your apology. Thank you for taking time to re-visit our discussion when your time is so short. Once again, I beg the pardon of those who may read this, as it is a long post. I find that the briefer ones end up misrepresenting what's being said. The stakes here are too high for glib responses.
I'd like to share more time still, to address your comments. Because in at least one point we ARE saying the same thing: "I can point to Scripture, science, and reason to support my beliefs rather than just to myself."
You cite the 56 year old Kinsey study, and find someone to support your suspicion regarding the psychopathology of homosexuals. There are many, more current studies. If you are interested, and ahve the time, I'll find them and maybe we can look at some of them together. In the course of obtaining my master's in clinical psychology, I ran across a lot of material in support of what the premier accrediting agency in the USA
(American Psychological Association) affirms: homosexuality is NOT pathological. Some studies have been done (it's still a new field) demonstrating the children of same-sex partners grow up emotionally healthy and with their own distinct, usually straight, gender-orientation.) They used to post some of these studies, along with a formal apology to the community for formerly designating it as a form of pathology. Anyone can check out their website (apa.org), there's an article there now with this heading on the home page:
APA Annual Convention in Honolulu
July 28 - August 1, 2004
APA Supports Legalization of Same-Sex Civil Marriages and Opposes Discrimination Against Lesbian and Gay Parents
Denying same-sex couples legal access to civil marriage is discriminatory and can adversely affect the psychological, physical, social and economic well-being of gay and lesbian individuals.
Read the Full-text of the Resolution on Sexual Orientation and Marriage. (PDF)
I've been scanning th