Be loving in everything you do." - I Corinthians 16:13-14
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"Be on your guard. Stand firm in the faith. Be brave. Be strong. Be loving in everything you do." - I Corinthians 16:13-14 |
Bishop Duncan Gray of Mississippi writes a special column for Jackson's Clarion-Ledger newspaper (short version: All is Well™ in Mississippi). Kendall Harmon takes exception, and comments ensue. A fun time is had by all.
Posted by Greg Griffith at July 30, 2005 07:43 PM (GMT -6:00)Oh well, as long as we can all sit down togeter and enjoy the show and not be troubled with all that devisive theology. I like Opera better.
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at July 30, 2005 10:17 PMA world view that has reigned in the Episcopal Church for 40-50 years is challenged. As this comprises the lifetime of a goodly portion of the clergy of the diocese, I doubt all had "a fun time."
That said, some of the comments are thought-provoking and worthwhile.
Greg has a great analysis of the article here at Southern Anglican:
http://www.southernanglican.com/archives/000033.php
# Posted by: Sarah at July 31, 2005 01:29 PMPM, I think that you misspelled "Oprah" again . . .
We really must get spell-check on Stand Firm . . .
# Posted by: Sarah at July 31, 2005 01:30 PMSarah, she is better also!
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at July 31, 2005 03:24 PMAkinola & Gomez declare imparied communion with the CoE http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2824
# Posted by: Sinner at July 31, 2005 04:50 PMWell, that (Titus19) was pretty entertaining. Watching so many serious folks pick apart our Bishop's statement. Who'da thought a country bishop from Mississippi could stir up so much chatter? Me? I'm just going off to the big Tent Meeting to find out where we are headed while the Anglican Communion and ECUSA implode. Maybe we're just going to be a little church here in MS and let the rest of the world be ignored.
# Posted by: Gulfstream at July 31, 2005 08:48 PMSinner, I will now make a prediction. I suspect that this article will be a writer/paper wanting to make a whole lot of conflict out of much, much less, at the end of the day.
I could be wrong -- but it just seems to me to be too much of "I need a good story -- something to liven things up" in this story.
# Posted by: Sarah at July 31, 2005 11:47 PM+Duncan Grey's remarks are the same as the episcopal church made 150 years ago. "Don't worry Be happy!" Can you feel the beat? I can see why my REC brothers and sisters left 150+ years ago. I hope the trans cripts from + Bishop Royal's sermon today at St. Stephen's makes it on stand firm.,We had a wonderful day, 6 new members, Maggie and I included were accepted , and 6+ confirmations. God's love and power is showing everywhere, take heart my brothers and sisters.
The 1928 CBP Rocks!
Blessings
Bro Paul
Bro Paul, at least give a man enough respect to spell his name correctly. It's Bp Gray, not Grey
# Posted by: South Jackson Anglican at August 1, 2005 08:10 PMWell, I guess I better make my voice heard as well. I am one of the 12 or so that was recieved into St. Stephens this past Sunday. I wonder if +Duncan realizes the number of people that have actually left ECUSA since 1979. Granted, not all went to REC(St. Stephens wasn't even established yet), but I know of one OCA priest that left shortly after BCP '79. Oh yeah, by the way, Brother Paul, is correct about BCP '28. My wife and I had our membership transfered within a week after attending our first REC service.
# Posted by: RMT at August 1, 2005 09:30 PMAnyone wish to sponsor a debate between Duncan Gray and Kendall harmon on this subject?
# Posted by: css at August 1, 2005 10:49 PMSJA,
No disrespect intended! Just didn't proof read well enough before I sent. Though He and I don't see eye to eye, and that he does not even want to set up a time for he and I to talk, I would never disrespect him. Nor has he disrespected me.
But do come see us at St. Stephen"s when you can.
You can sit with Maggie and I in the front row!
Blessings
Bro Paul
SJA,
One other point. + Bp. Gray should be up holding what our church has been saying for over 200 yrs.
#1 The "absolute supremacy" of the Bible "as the only rule of of faith and practice, the only test of truth, the only judge of controversy"
#2 The corruption of human nature by sin.
#3 The centrality of the Atonement of Christ as the theological remedy for this condition
#4 The necessity of an "experimental knowledge of Christ crucified and interceding. " To be applied by " the inward work of the Holy Spririt in the heart of men".
#5 The requirement of a serious,holy life as "the only certain evidence of a man's spiritual condition". ie: +Bp John Charles Ryle
Blessings
Bro Paul
IMHO it appears that the good bishop is correct. In talking to my many Episcopal friends, both orthodox and liberal the liturgy and form comes first as the reason for staying in the Episcopal Church. Next would be nice buildings, social circle, fond family memories, good music and social status. Way to the bottom of the list is what the Bible teaches or even being in the Anglican communion. All the above are good and important and influence all denominations but it gets down to what trumps what. I wonder if any "Episcopal" looking group with good liturgy, buildings, etc. would attract away the ECUSAites. It at best is a small market. We all make choices. That is our right, we just can't choose the consequences.
# Posted by: John Hey MD at August 2, 2005 11:41 AMI can't resist tossing my two cents: From the RC Church I tranferred membership specifically because of the openness that +Bp. Gray describes. That was partly confirmed by a newspaper article in 1974 about the ordination of an "out" lesbian, Carter Heyward. Thirty years ago! It's taken thirty years to take the next logical canonical step and consecrate an openly gay bishop. My, my we do HAVE to be careful about the speed with which ECUSA has moved forward--not! And there certainly has been no clandestine activity here either. If I could read it in the news in my tiny little town, then it was out there for everyone to take note.
BTW, I wouldn't dream of anything but "impaired" communion with Akinola and his cronies--better, none at all, save for Jesus.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at August 3, 2005 12:05 PMHi Barb+!! Que paso?
the snarkster
# Posted by: Michael Ware at August 3, 2005 05:22 PMPaul,
I am surprised that Tom has not commented on this yet. He is usually quick to defend +Gray's comments......
Barbara+
I appreciate your enthusiasm for the way ECUSA slid down the slippery slope. It was probably an exciting time for you. But some of us who hold to the truth and Gospel handed down are less impressed by such. You are welcome to continue to hold to your thoughts, and we will hold to ours. And ours are that homosexual sex acts are contrary to Biblical truth, period. Sorry.
# Posted by: Gulfstream at August 4, 2005 01:02 AMRMT,
Ya I know , Tom is a faithful follower of his like I "was".Plus Tom does a lot of work for him.
Barbara+ I would like to put in my 2 cents in too! You may not know that I am former RC myself. But your comments may be a little tilted in favor of the ECUSA, in reguards to your ordination which would not be recognized by either RC or the REC unless you are a deacon then it would be by the REC.But, was the "out"woman back 30 years ago still engaged in her lesbian relationship? If so then that is the problem. She should be celibate , same thing with +Viki.Gene. If their ordinations are a step forward, I and a vast majority of Episcopals don't see it that way.
Blessings
Bro Paul
Hiya Snarkster!
All's well with me and mine. The big thing with us right now is that son Adam is completing 10 weeks of USMC Officer Candidate School next week and we're going to Quantico, VA for a few days for his graduation. We're very proud of him and for him. He's one of the youngest Candidates there, too. Anyway, how are you?
# Posted by: Barbara+ at August 4, 2005 10:34 AMPaul R,
You're right: I did feel called to ordination and that was part of it--but I'm pretty sure that if such a thing had been possible, I wouldn't have wanted ordination as an RC. I think the Vatican's stand on birth control for the poor (and everyone else) is all but criminal.
On the other point, I don't know if she was in a relationship or not. I know she is now and has been in that same committed relationship for many years.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at August 4, 2005 10:40 AMHi Barb+: Good to see you're still around. Congrats for Adam. Hope he does well. All is well in the snarkster household. Oldest son graduates from MSU this week and only daughter will be a freshman at MSU in 2 weeks. Empty nest syndrome looms.
the snarkster
# Posted by: Michael Ware at August 4, 2005 10:51 AMMmmmm... Snarkville University :P Somebody send me a big ball of cheese! We got nothin like it up here in carolina
# Posted by: Marty at August 4, 2005 11:53 AMGood to hear from you, Barbara!
I would say that the comment you made at the beginning of this a few days ago represents the two different gospels that are now so apparent and separate within ECUSA.
I am thankful that you express it so frankly. That is a matter of integrity that I wish those others who are reappraisers would strive for. Sadly, there will be a certain segment of reappraisers that will say "let's drop anchor and hope they all go to sleep" -- we'll see if they win out at General Convention 06 . . .
Congrats on your son.
Cheers,
Sarah
# Posted by: Sarah at August 4, 2005 12:19 PMMarty: Send me your address and I'll send you a big ball of MSU cheese. Snarkville! That's a good one.
the snarkster
Sarah and Snarky,
It's nice to be "talking" with you all again, and thanks for the "congrats." I'll be surprised if the next +++PB isn't a lot more conservative than +++Frank, too--so, indeed, GC 2008 will be interesting.
# Posted by: Barbara+ at August 4, 2005 01:36 PMBarbara is right that Carter Heyward was, and is, an important harbinger of the future of ECUSA. In 1974, she was one of the famous, or infamous, depending upon one's point of view, Philadelphia 11-- 11 women ordained as priests in the Episcopal church BEFORE WO was approved at GC1976. (The same GC, BTW, that approved what became known as the 1979 prayerbook). Obviously, this was in the days before revisionists were the ECUSA canon fundamentalists that they have become today. I think part of the strategy was to make it more difficult for GC1976 to reject WO-- it would mean defrocking these nice women. At the time, Heyward was not "out" as a lesbian. That would only come after WO was approved.
Today Heyward is a professor of theology at the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Mass. If anyone doubts that the revisionists reject a theology of salvation by grace and forgiveness of sin solely through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, that they do not teach that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and that no one may come to the Father except by Him, and that they preach instead a gospel of salvation by works, he or she need only read Heyward's sermon, "Speaking Truth to Power," delivered at the EDS commencement ceremony on May 19, 2004. Here are a few relevant excerpts:
"If Mel Gibson’s slasher film had any theological merit, it was in its portrayal of how Empires treat those who, like Jesus and his disciples, are experienced as troublemakers. Jesus’ imperial context and that of the early church was Rome. Ours today, as contemporary Christians, is the United States of America and a world being shaped by it.
******************************
"But listen to what Psalm 15 has to say about being God’s chosen people: 'O Lord, who may abide in your tent? Who may dwell on your holy hill? Those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. Those who speak truth from the heart.' God isn’t saying that only Jews may abide in the tent or that only Moslems may dwell on the holy hill or that only Christians will inherit eternal life. God is not talking about who we are, dear people, or what religion we profess. God is interested in how we treat one another, whether we love our neighbors as ourselves, whether we forgive our enemies as we wish to be forgiven."
Carter Heyward is teaching our future Episcopal priests. She makes no bones about what she believes. Without significant intervention to change things, this will be the official teaching of our church within most of our lifetimes. And contrary, politically incorrect theology will not be tolerated.
I agree with Sarah. There is a refreshing degree of candor here. If only our PB were half so honest about the implications of his teachings! So, thank you, Barbara, for reminding us about Carter Heyward, and thank you, Carter Heyward, for painting such a transparent vision of where you are taking our church.
Barbara+
Thank you for responding to my statement, you and I are of the same mindset on birth control. I guess I and alot of others will never concede that a homosexual relationship even one that has lasted for years "is" consistent with sripture.
Though I have looked and asked folks in the REC, Rc,and a vast amount in the ECUSA no one had been able to show me that it is right in God's eye.
I have heard good arguments but not good enough.
But I did want ot say that being homsexual is not a sin but to participate is. bottom line. But I am just one man , but I feel I am on the right track.I must quote : We believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and new Testaments to be the Word of God written and to contain "all things necessary unto salvation". As God's revealed word to us, the Bible is the lens through which we veiw and evaluate all other claims to the Truth. We believe also thet Scripture infallibly reveals God and His ways to us. Ie; What is Anglicanism? + Mark F.M. Clavier and ++Ray R. Sutton
Blessings
Bro Paul
"Barbara is right that Carter Heyward was, and is, an important harbinger of the future of ECUSA."
Regarding EDS, where Carter Heyward teaches--it is not flourishing--in fact, is apparently renting out some of its space to non-church-related groups, such as an arts therapy program of a nearby Cambridge college.
Meanwhile, Trinity (TESM), is growing.
Does the image of the lampstands in St. John's Revelation apply here?
Amen to Patricia in Mass.
I recently met several seminary students from Trinity and I have to tell you they were on fire for the Gospel. En Fuego!
No one could do better than to have any of the students I met come to their parishes for an internship or associate rector position.
It so happens that I will be at TESM this coming Sunday and Monday for a meeting. I will come back with a report, and post either here or at Stand Firm Alabama.
# Posted by: Rick Harris at August 5, 2005 10:59 AMWhy not post at SFA and SFM?
I think both audiences would appreciate your insight.
Gratefully,
Boar
# Posted by: Boar in the Vineyard at August 5, 2005 11:14 AMRick, if you run into a new faculty member named Martha, from Massachusetts, please pass on warm regards from this web junkie. She was recently recruited from our church (sniff) and will be sorely missed, but we're more than honored to have her at Trinity.
# Posted by: patricia in massachusetts at August 5, 2005 03:30 PMWould that be Rev. Martha Giltinan?
# Posted by: Rick Harris at August 5, 2005 05:09 PM