Be loving in everything you do." - I Corinthians 16:13-14
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"Be on your guard. Stand firm in the faith. Be brave. Be strong. Be loving in everything you do." - I Corinthians 16:13-14 |
A sad comment on religion in England today, and a warning for America:
"At the end of the 19th century, there were comparable levels of religiosity in Britain and the United States. The British lived in a culture in which the assumptions of Protestant Christianity were taken for granted," Davies wrote in The New Criterion.
But he said that, generally beginning after World War II, the nation's morality collapsed, and the U.K. saw dramatically worsening trends in illegitimacy, substance abuse, crime and other sorts of behavior that were once considered sinful.
In 2000, the Anglican archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. George Carey, also noted Britain's moral decline. "A tacit atheism prevails. Death is assumed to be the end of life. Our concentration on the here-and-now renders a thought of eternity irrelevant."
No compass, no anchor, no chart, no sextant, no captain, no clock or calander, no means of communicating, leaking and nothing or nowone who can bail, so what else is new in liberal "christianity?"
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at August 8, 2005 12:18 AMNow I know I am speaking on a broad subject here but I must let everyone know that there is all ready a church with that fire , and concern by the clergy, home visits, etc. it is the REC!
I do not know why it is taking so long for other brothers and sisters not to make the move there.
Please any one who wants a change for the good , and fellowship in and with the Holy Spirit give them a try. Go to their web site find a church that is close. if there is not one close get with the Bishop in your area , there are missions starting in every state. For those in MS. St. Stephen's in Flow wood. 2 missions starting in North Ms. and in the South. It's happening now, feel the love and peace of God's Son again.
I'll shut up now.
Blessings
Bro Paul
You know, PM, I would take it a step further. This article speaks of a survey of 14,000 people who already attend church of all denominations and theological persuasions.
It appears to me that in the UK that Christianity -- whether liberal or conservative -- is seen as an abject failure.
In this way I agree with the premise of the article, which is that the US may well track the UK [though we must note that it is nowhere close to that now in stats comparisons -- I know we like to complain, but we "ain't seen nothing yet"]. Even if we deleted all mainstream denominations from the US as too liberal, we'd still have a major major problem here.
I am pondering what we should do about it and when I figure it out I'll make sure that Stand Firm gets first dibs on posting the solution! ; > )
I'd guess, at first blush, that we need to pray earnestly for *personal, individual* revival of our own persons, that God would pour out His Holy Spirit on *me*. I say this because often calls for revival extend to "all those people out there" but I actually suspect that any revival within the US will begin with me, and with the people who post or simply listen on this board.
What a frightening and humbling thought that is.
# Posted by: Sarah at August 8, 2005 10:23 AMPaul,
You don't need to shut up. in fact, you beat me to the punch. you can lead a horse to the river, but you can't make him drink.
Sarah, it has been always true that each Christian needs continuous revival. The Lord promised that he would build His Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against her. He builds it one believer at a time. Sure the "churches" are degenerating, but we must remember that the word for church is ecclesia which basically means "called out ones." He is now shaking everything that can be shaken so that only the true would remain standing. He is calling His true ones out of the goat barns, Babylonian tower buildings, unclean bird cages and strengthening His True Church where ever it may be found. Meanwhile the "Christians" in name only just drift merrily down the stream on their rudderless barges enjoying the entertainment and playing "Church." Even so come Lord Jesus.
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at August 8, 2005 11:40 PMI suppose you are correct [grudging support here for Prophet Micaiah] . . . however, there are whole and double and triple generations, PM, in history who do *not* see revival, or the wholesale renewal of the Spirit.
One can look back clearly throughout church history and see whole centuries where the church was a shell of its former self, and whole centuries when it appeared to spring to life.
My fear is that I'm in one of those centuries where . . . er . . . the church is not springing to life!
(As an Episcopalian, I'm probably in one of the Babylonian towers -- so much more tasteful than an "unclean bird cage" or "goat barn" [sniff, and a toss of the head, disdainfully].) I just don't see the power of the Holy Spirit coursing through *any* church, though, as it did in His Acts, nor as it did in some other notable centuries.
The blame for that I place squarely on me, and you, and Greg, and Boar, and the Snarkster, and Marty, and any other Christian I can find. The blame is not on the pagans, it's on me.
# Posted by: Sarah at August 9, 2005 09:20 AMSarah, PLEASE take a look at what's happening in the "two-thirds" world, before you assume the Spirit is not moving powerfully in our times. You won't have to look very far. There's South America, China, and I've just heard that a young friend of ours is now a missionary in Mozambique--Muslims are coming to Christ there, with an astounding number of indigenously-led house-churches springing up.
# Posted by: patricia in massachusetts at August 9, 2005 10:12 AMPatricia: The Spirit is indeed moving powerfully in the developing world. Sarah is right, however, that it is not in our neck of the woods. I further agree with her that the blame for that rests with us. Mea culpa! As Pogo once said, "I have met the enemy and he is us." We have sat on our arses sipping our single malt while Christianity in America has self destructed before our eyes. And until recently, no one has tried to put things right.
ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS!
the snarkster
# Posted by: Michael Ware at August 9, 2005 10:29 AMPatricia . . . I hear the great news from other parts of the world -- good correction on my language. I should have said the church was a shell of its former self *in the U.S.
Of course, many will then bring up a few specific churches in the U.S. -- but to me, those are the exceptions that prove the rule.
Michael, regarding the sipping of single malt -- surely Marty and PM and perhaps other non-Anglicans will be grossly offended by the implication that they are sipping single malt. Perhaps they are doing something else vaguely equivalent to this action?
; > )
# Posted by: Sarah at August 9, 2005 04:49 PMSarah, as for me I prefer double malt and usually chocolate and very thick. Those exception type churches---I think the True Church is always the exception. After all it is the narrow gate that is entered and FEW there be that find it. I think what you are seeing is the inevitable demise of the institutional religious organizations and not what was ever the True Church. Gothic buildings, denominations, big crowds, stadiums and other organizaations are merely para-church and may be good or bad or go bad and die off. The True Church is a group of called out born again believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit and with Christ as the head and meeting with them in their midst. Everything else is just temporary. The Church will often find it is in opposition and hated by the majority. It is often underground, meeting in homes, upper rooms, or catacombs. Only three orthodox Jews did not bow before the golden idol and they ended up in a fiery furnace---but Jesus was there with them and not in the established "church" of the day.
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at August 9, 2005 10:29 PMThe article said: For example, many respondents complained that their ministers hardly seemed to believe in Christianity themselves. Said one churchgoer: "Often clergy do little to try and convince us that God exists, let alone outline the logical reasons behind our belief in the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection."
I can't put my finger on it, but I read of another UK religious survey in the last couple of years. This survey was of the priests. More than a handful of priests actually don't believe in the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection.
Ah, PM, this probably reveals a core distinction of beliefs and values here -- even more important than that of double-malted chocolate which in itself is highly questionable. In short, I think you are wrong -- [or as Bilbo Baggins yelled to Gollum, leaping to his feet, "Both Wrong!".]
Your comment about the "True Church" reveals that you believe that smaller is purer, and you appear to revel in the smallness of "True Church". I believe that is a sign -- often but not always -- of something very very wrong. Such a "True Church" is often not self-propagating nor growing nor thriving on *any* measurement [not simply numbers]. And yet they insulate themselves from worries or fears about this lack by proclaiming that all else are not "True Churches" and that their smallness has occurred by weeding out the impurities. Such a clever re-ordering of priorities and hopes and Gospel insulates them from the dire consequences of their theology, and encourages gnosticism. Indeed I am not merely speaking of the "institutional religious organizations" of the day -- I am speaking of churches of every shape, size, denomination or non, and type.
Of course, the classic classic example of this *is* the institution of the Episcopal church as it is currently constituted. Our national church leadership fondly imagines that they are enlightened and special. That there is no need to grow and in fact, the hundreds leaving [I believe the estimate was in the many thousands in 2003 -- and, funny that, we haven't yet received exact stats on 2004] are due to the less enlightened being "purged out" by their superior morality and, yes, their increased purity! After all, there is no need to grow when you yourself are so special and the reason for not growing is because "the people" [read the masses] are so ignorant, corrupt, unenlightened, and, shall we say, impoverished in spirit! You will actually hear the argument now being made that it's better for ECUSA to be smaller -- because it's made up of a higher concentration of better purer people. I am always suspicious of that kind of talk in either "conservative" or "liberal" circles.
And yet, I think if you look carefully at history, you will see that there have been times that "True Church" was large, kingdom building, renewing, and a powerful influence over the culture of the day. Sometimes this "True Church" was in institutions and sometimes not. The Holy Spirit moves where He wills, and it appears clear to me that the Holy Spirit is simply not moving in the US amongst His churches of any sort at all.
An obvious current example of a church where the Holy Spirit appears to be moving in the manner described in Acts is in the church in China -- which is as massive as an underground tsunami. I firmly believe that it will be proven that such a church will not be kept underground, but that it will even alter, disturb, and *overrun* so powerful and wicked a government as that of China's. I believe that once such a church *overruns* such a government, the impact on China's culture will be of an enormity that we cannot imagine. Indeed even the Chinese government is riddled like a honeycomb with "weaknesses" -- that is, Christians -- and appears ever to be a shell maintained only by brute power. It may even happen in my lifetime, and I can't wait to see it.
Nevertheless, this awesome happening -- if God blesses China in this way -- will also reveal through the use of the "stark contrast" method, the utter paltriness and flaccidity of the "True Church" here in the US.
In other words, the "group of called out born again believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit and with Christ as the head and meeting with them in their midst" in the United States is a pathetic group. A pathetic group. And before you get prideful over that, when I say "pathetic group" I don't mean a "small persecuted abused" group nor a "noble suffering" group. I mean "pathetic" in an ignoble, inconsequential way.
Inconsequential.
And before you get proud of being "inconsequential" as in "of little consequence" and we get back to "noble suffering" thoughts -- by "inconsequential" I mean of little import, impact, or affect in any positive way at all.
And to compare such a group -- *of which I am one* -- to those who were "meeting in catacombs" in the first and second centuries I believe is startling in its naivete.
I believe that you are missing something that is stark, horrific, and very, very consequential about "True Church" in America.
Again, I place the blame squarely on me, and you, and Greg, and Boar, and the Snarkster, and Marty, and any other Christian I can find. The blame is not on the pagans, whether they are in the "institutionalized churches" or in their stockcars or in their banking facilities, it's on me.
I do not believe that God will renew His church in the US until we realize this and until we ourselves are renewed.
Speaking personally here, that is a very very sad thing.
It is hard for me to believe that on some boards and discussion groups I have been accused of being too humorous and light-hearted. [Of course, on *this* very blog I was accused of being a member of Integrity -- from which the scars have not healed nor has my esteem recovered].
But as I look at the previously posted comment of mine, I will -- as a counter to the dire seriousness of it -- offer this interesting anecdote about single malt liquor.
A while ago I was pronouncing doom on certain portly members of the clergy of the reasserting sort who appear to me to be sitting around in their lazy-boys, complaining about their minority lot and the laity, and not doing anything but drinking single malt and smoking fine cigars.
I meant the above as a general example of lethargy and whining -- not that there were actually any "portly" priests in ECUSA [heavens no!], nor that they would sit around in lazy-boys [tasteless furniture, so of course that wouldn't happen].
But rather than take my point, I received a number of portentious emails saying -- nay spelling out for me in some detail -- in tones of horror and incredulity -- that no self-respecting clergy person, whether portly or not, would consume their single malt while at the same time smoking their fine cigars. "No, no, no" . . . I was told. "One never, never drinks single malt while smoking cigars. It is a travesty, an abomination, a horror beyond all of our imaginings, even more terrible than the ignorant laity about which we rightly complain!!!"
Sigh.
It was hopeless.
# Posted by: Sarah at August 10, 2005 10:29 AMSarah, if you think the True Church in America or anywhere eles is "pathetic" you really need to get out more. Weak, yes, small, maybe, not well known, that may be our fault. It has nothing to do with size. The Church at Jerusalem I believe got up to 5000 members, but later was down to only the Apostles (12?) Acts 8:1. God has at times used large denominations and at times not. In China the bulk of believers are in house churches ("Plymouth Breathern") but not all. As to growth it is the Holy Spirit that adds to the church. As for power and influence--we won't really know until eternity. Meanwhile we are to be faithful.
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at August 10, 2005 12:16 PMI do indeed think that the True Church in America is pathetic -- and I'm not talking about the "noble suffering" pathetic like "weak" and "small".
And I'm out a lot, in a wide variety of churches and meeting a wide variety of Christians everywhere.
I'm not certain why you bring up the church in China -- I've already said it is an example of the "non-pathetic" and indeed quite the opposite of the "True Church" in America.
I believe that there is something very wrong. Thus -- when you speak of being "faithful" -- I fear that the True Church in America is not.
But that's where we differ greatly I suspect.
# Posted by: Sarah at August 10, 2005 12:26 PMGuess it comes down to what you mean about the definition of the True Church. I think a lot of the problems are lumping in some of the goat barns and pathetic counterfits that are around.
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at August 10, 2005 12:45 PMIf it weren't for the bracketed comment below, I would get the impression that Sarah has not met many ECUSA priests. What I see at most diocesan conventions, clergy gatherings, etc. is a group in serious need of Weightwatchers. That includes liberals and conservatives.
I meant the above as a general example of lethargy and whining -- not that there were actually any "portly" priests in ECUSA [heavens no!], nor that they would sit around in lazy-boys [tasteless furniture, so of course that wouldn't happen.
# Posted by: at August 10, 2005 10:31 PMMr. Anonymous . . .
Why -- "how wude"!!! ; > )
This. Is. Outrageous. Slander.
We may be in goat barns and unclean bird cages and Babylonian towers . . . but how dare you cast aspersions on our physiques!!!!!!!!!!!
Mr. PM: I am defining the "True Church" in the US in the same way you are -- the "group of called out born again believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit and with Christ as the head and meeting with them in their midst" whether in small groups, houses, little barns [clean barns], strip malls, etc, etc, etc. I just don't think very well of the "True Church" in the US. I believe that there is something seriously wrong with "True Church" in the US.
I do not mean "ECUSA" -- I mean "True Church".
But I think I've rung this bell enough today. So I'll get back to beating up on "institutional church" -- mainly ECUSA -- after these brief advertising messages.
# Posted by: Sarah at August 10, 2005 11:04 PMEven as Elijah denounced Israel for forsaking its covenant with God, the Lord left seven thousand, all the knees that had not bowed to Baal. I won't presume to judge who are "the seven thousand" in America. However, I believe that the church in our nation can no longer claim to be "the city on the hill." When there is no measurable difference between the church and the culture (e.g. when the divorce rate is essentially the same between the two) then we have failed our Lord.
Humility is the way forward. "If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land." (2 Chr 7:14).
Humility is the way forward for the church in America. Humility is the way forward for the Church of England. Humility is the way forward for the Anglican Communion.
The king of Ninevah arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. He decreed a fast and exhorted repentance. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented (Jonah 3). We have much to learn from the king of Ninevah.
Thank you, Sarah.
What we are talking about is the need for Revival among God's people. It is a work of God by His Grace coming to bear on our hearts. It starts by God making us unhappy with our present state--usually due to adversity or deadness. Then He send a preacher (prophet) with a message-usually not popular with the people. After this comes the humility and crying out to God for revival and repentance. Where are the preachers, where are the Elijah's of God? We were turned around by the Jonothan Edwards's, England was saved from the likes of the French Revolution by the Wesley's. They had the Puritans, Bunyon's and Wilberforce's. Humility is needed but it comes further down the chain. Judgment must begin at the House of God--I Peter 4:17. I believe He is at work, but there is a lot of fallow ground to be plowed and destruction of some idols yet before revival. IMHO
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at August 11, 2005 11:54 AMSarah-PM,
Please forgive my "Not Getting It" but who is the "Pathetic Counterfeits"? And Sarah I was the foolish one who made that statement of you being with "Integrity" I have prayed night and day for your scars to have been healed fully by now , I will redouble my efforts and prayers to amend ;-)
Bro Paul
Paul R, a counterfeit looks like the real thing but has no power, integrity, value. Pathetic means sorry and useless. The Devil would surely try to duplicate the True Church with counterfeits and secret depraved leaders and filled with deludud members. There may be some true believers in these false churches, but being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, most Christians would wise up and leave. Now true churches are not perfect, just like people. If a baby is born with no arms or retarded we don't kill it because it is defective. There are churches that are very defective, but Christ is the head and the Holy Spirit directs them. They are a work in progress. In fact all churches are on the improvement tract. (Eph. 4 especially verses 12-13) I think the real difference is whether the officers are true and the Bible is the operater's manual. As for denominations, it is a spectrum. Mormans and Jehovah Wittnesses are 100% counterfeit, not that they don't have some truth--even the Devil uses half truth as a weapon. Others are on down the spectrum. IMHO
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at August 12, 2005 01:44 PM"Forgive me Father, for I have sinned" I am not able to see your ways, your love, nor your message in these anonymous blogs.
I have always thought that we should address our differences with respect. How can the differences be met when mockery abounds? lazy boys? malt liquor, etc?
But, what could you expect from a direct descendant of Jacob Leinenkugel? You would have to be from the north to understand...they don't sell the great brew down here...
# Posted by: Heidi Alvey at August 14, 2005 01:58 AMI think that all I am really asking is that people treat those with whom they disagree with, with respect. I have digressed, I know with my posting. But, unless we can respect each other with our myriad of truthful and inspired beliefs we will split into a million different denominations all clamoring for a voice to be 'right' instead of a voice of intelligent, compassionate understanding.
Duhh?
# Posted by: Prophet Micaiah at August 14, 2005 10:52 AMPm,
Thank you for the post, I see I was in the right mindset as you. Now that I have found a very good church to attend, I am better able to help my other brothers and sisters who are wanting a change, but I now know and understand from a new friend why some of them are staying and fighting the "good fight" my heart has been changed thanks to her. I am now more supportive of their needs.
My hopes and Prayers are now taking a higher cause that I never thought possible. My outreach is to show the love of Jesus Christ to the
revisitionist and unorthodox, they are just doing what they are being taught in their churchs. It is my hope that from our example of knowing God's word and his son and following the Holy Spirit's guidance in our outreach to them, brings them home. They need the "Real" Jesus badly, Not the "new" one.
Blessings
Bro Paul